I can speak from my own experience as a wife of someone with narcissistic pathology who was in therapy for over a year: it got worse. Extremely worse. Having a platform to have his feelings and distorted thoughts constantly validated gave him the fuel he needed to continue his abuse.
Yes, yes, yes. And they learned what to use against you from that as well. And "Christian" counseling is even worse than that because the counselors encourage you to "love anyway" and give them the benefit of the doubt, and give them "sacrificial love", and "wives submit to husbands" crap which sets you up royally for more of the worst kind of abuse. My Christian counselor actually asked me to seduce my obviously-cheating husband so he could "see where his head is at"!!! And you can't go to a different counselor and start over, because they all know each other and talk. I know. I interviewed 3 more of them, and still found out later they all knew each other. And the first question they ask is "have you seen any other counselors", and make you sign a disclaimer that you are not seeing another counselor. So what do you do? Front-loaded to be a losing proposition. Just like @SAVE TRUMP's response above, in 10 years of Christian counseling, it was all about him. Never received an indication that my needs factored in anywhere in the process.
Thank you for addressing the "self esteem" boosting!! Since junior high, when the girl bullying me got an award in front of the school for "self-esteem", I have deeply questioned the phrase.
Key is a therapist who is educated in personality disorders is what I'm hearing if I understand correctly. Your comments on how to move forward on the societal level are excellent, we absolutely need to move away from teaching our children that they're awesome at everything while encouraging them appropriately. Wonderful presentation, thank you.
My mother got better at first with therapy - we had a highly competent family therapist. It was only when she herself became a counselor that she got really bad. I think she learned enough that she felt confident she knew more than everyone else, so nothing she did was wrong. She was simply the most unappreciated wife and mother (and counselor !) in the world. 🙄
Nothing worse than a dysfunctional parent with a psych degree. Nothing. It took me a long time to accept a lot of therapy language thanks to my mother.
My ex-BPD went to a therapist for the first time (at age 44) when our relationship imploded. It was hilarious when she came home after the 3rd appointment and told me how angry she was that she had tried to tell the therapist all her stories of abuse and victimhood, and her therapist kept telling her, “You weren’t the victim. You were the PERPETRATOR in that situation.” I highly doubt that she continued to see such a therapist who attempted to hold her accountable.
B T That’s a valid question that I DO have an answer for. That woman is still the oldest I have ever dated, and my only explanation is that she was someone I’d had a thing for from when I was 11-13. Before I give you the rest of the explanation, I should preface it with the fact that she was still 5’7” 126 pounds of an almost flawless physique (which also might have been a red flag, except that both of us shared that gym obsession). She was my sister’s best friend and she was in most of my classes for those years, so I’d had a lot of exposure to her then. Combine that with ZERO contact and exposure to her for 30 years, and a very well-curated social media photo gallery, and all I can think of to explain it is that our previous history brought me back to a place where I couldn’t see her objectively. This was confirmed 6 months after our relationship ended and she hoovered me with a Halloween photo she had just taken. I delete or burn all photos, and digitally delete all traces of exes, so I hadn’t seen any images of this woman after the breakup. The whole time we were together I had genuinely believed that she was objectively beautiful. When I received the photo I was shocked at how ugly and old she looked, which, being only 6 months later, and her being a co-morbid Borderline/NPD who would never have sent an unfiltered, unflattering photo, can really only be explained as my NOW seeing her objectively for what she was: a 44-year old psychological black hole and physical husk of what she had been when I knew her in my developing, impressionable years.
chris palmer I concur. BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder) is in the same D.S.M.-5 Cluster B category as NPD. The Dramatic & Erratic Cluster. (APD) Antisocial Personality Disorder (BPD) Borderline Personality Disorder (HPD) Histrionic Personality Disorder (NPD) Narcissistic Personality Disorder
I personally think that it is an epidemic because most of these don’t get diagnosis done. Also the covert types are good at masking themselves. A person higher on the spectrum of narcissism is also capable of inflicting great damage as compared to a fully blown NPD. There are lots of these people with high narcissistic traits who go unseen and undiagnosed.
What is not mentioned is that therapy can be harmful to the victim of someone with NPD when they are seeking marital counseling. The narcissist will use everything against the spouse later.
My brother in law begged my sister to go to marital counselig for years. She first agreed to go to therapy after he left her and when he told her, he will definitively won't come back she said, she wanted to stop therapy because it doesn't make any sense any more if she doesn't get her husband back. Therapy was just her try to make her husband come back. After all, in her mind she wasn't in the wrong at all.
@@Cowface Same...Onetime he was telling me how I lied and I started crying because I was so confused. Then he went into Burger King and got a cheese burger while I sat in the car with tears streaming down my face. It made no sense to me.
Omg thank you. I agree that we need to stop over-boosting unfounded confidence and we instead need to (1) give praise when merited and (2) encourage empathy with others. Thank you.
Interesting. If we encourage them to get therapy, is it for them, or for everyone in their path of destruction? Because I can't imagine a narcissist ever admitting to a problem. Thank you, Dr Grande. 👍❄☃️
Bingo! I can't imagine anyone attached to an NPD ever actually telling them they are one. Seems it would have to be to address a specific "harmless" or "non-threatening" daily issue, then gently unpeel from there.
Couples counseling gives the NPD info/ weapons to further abuse their target/spouse. Most counselors are not fully trained and aware of the damage their tactics/ manipulation cause and engage in victim blaming, which further leads to more ammunition for the cluster B type to use against their spouse after they get home, or they'll use it when they think it will publically embarrass, etc Also they don't usually self report being narcissistic.
The problem is that couples do the counseling together. They need to go to counseling separetely for months or years and then go together. Otherwise it fails. Also divorce os not failure. It could be the healthiest choice.
@@theinterruptionwithriansar3768 I don't consider it a failure, but people stay in these relationships for many different reasons. You never know until you have walked in someone else's shoes.
War causes the most trauma/ drama (same energy). Drama perpetuates more trauma and therefore people have a war like tendencies for example survival mode/ competitiveness, feeling that you are not enough or there's not enough resources for everyone. Psychopathy, narcissism and sociopathy are a product of war. In reality we are all abundance in love, peace, wisdom etc. We are enough
May I suggest that the human species MARINATING in alcohol, is the necessary first step in all the trauma of violence u talk of? In 100% of collage rapes, BOTH parties were on alcohol. Louis Theroux said in his doc on Death Row, 100% of the cases on death row were alcohol related. 100,000 people die from booze yearly. 1 in 4 drinking 18 year olds who WILL die of booze, r usually introduced by loved 1s. Eliminating booze is a good start, so it's suspicious when comments like yours make no mention.
BF TE Yes, I agree War definitely causes severe trauma and activates survival mode. Narcissism as a result Everybody is putting themselves first, survival mode!
Judy Lee A traumatized person has trust issues for sure. But I wouldn’t say that is Narcissism. Being self absorbed because of PTSD Is different than seeing yourself above everyone else. Or thinking one is entitled to harm just anyone because they have been harmed, that is where narcissism kicks in. Arrogance is a major component is narcissism, I suppose.
That is probably exactly what a Narcissist would think, being overly confident of their cleverness, while a Histrionic PD would hope the therapist was attracted to them, a BPD that the therapist wouldn't leave them, a PPD that the therapist was in league with their workplace, significant other, etc.
Wow, as always, you really nailed it again! Thank you for this video . I might disagree on the statistics. Unfortunately, the 3 long term relationships I have had in my lifetime were all with Narcissists or Sociopaths, perhaps even a Psychopath. I do have to take into consideration that I was most likely a target because of my horrifically abusive childhood, and therefore easy prey to predators. We were never allowed any kind of boundaries for ourselves as children, the word no never came out of our mouths as it was not allowed, and we were expected to obey any command given to us by an adult, even when we knew it put us (really just me, not my sisters) in danger. But even they were not allowed any autonomy or choices. So perhaps my view is skewed because of this. But the more I learn from you about Narcissists, Sociopaths and Psychopaths, the more my life makes sense. It was never my fault that I was victimized over and over. And the more determined I am to never allow myself to be treated badly again. So thank you for all you do, Dr. Grande.
So sorry about the nightmare you lived through as a young person 😔, and in relationships -- glad you are keeping yourself safer now! Good for you -- hang in there! 🙏
There's a HUGE difference between things like being obsessed with your appearance, taking tons of selfies for social media & actual NPD. Just throwing that out there. I'm sure Dr. G understands this... others might not. NPD is a conundrum & the misuse of mental illness labels ("She's so OCD!") doesn't help.
Excellent topic. Most channels are talking about how to recognize NPD and maybe understand it. We need more on what to do about it beside No Contact which just makes it someone else’s problem. Maybe how do you get someone into therapy? What is the right way to confront someone? How do we stop enabling them?
This is what I am curious about. My husband and I have noticed my father's behavior get progressively worse. I don't really want to talk to him anymore after a huge fight started over something inane and it progressed into a screaming match about how everyone is against him. He crossed the line when he blamed my mom for my brother's suicide. He is highly outgoing and has zero boundaries about what is socially acceptable. Alcohol makes it worse. The funny/sad part is that he is living in his own self fulfilled prophecy. Most people don't want to deal with him anymore because of how much he has and continues to hurt the people around him.
James Gerboc especially if the narc has some socially destructive habits like alcoholism. Battling the alcoholism whilst at the same time developing some empathy capacity for themselves and people around them has a direct benefit for society. As they may be less likely to drink and drive, more likely to not pour that next drink , as they like themselves more over they may learn to like being that person who expresses care for others.
@@jamesgerboc Their next victim won’t believe you anyway until it happens to them. Narcissists target specific people: empaths with boundary problems, people with low self-esteem... or if they’re vulnerable, those that criticise them. You can’t warn people because they don’t believe you anyway. And once it happens, the only way is to plan your exit safely. If it’s your boss and they target you, run!! Find a new job quickly. It it’s a family member, minimize contact as much as possible. Lover? LEAVE safely. There is no other way. If it’s a problem for them, they will seek help. I know at least one person with narcissistic traits who’s been in therapy for years. You can’t “get them” into therapy. Therapy doesn’t work like that. And honestly therapy is not the be all, end all. I’ve been to therapy for years and I’ve done 90% of the work.. for myself, to improve my life by changing some things in myself. I can do those things on MY own; I don’t need therapy to change, it’s just helpful and I can have more and quicker improvement. If a person doesn’t want to change, then honestly you are being avusive to want to force them to change. If it really becomes a problem for them, they will seek help on their own, but don’t abuse them trying to “force”. It’s just.. not nice. Plus, how do you know they’re the problem and not you?
Great insight and knowledge you have about these narcissistic issues in modern society. I agree with you about the ways how to try to create fundamental approaches to battle narcissism in general, but it's very difficult I think. We also need much more good counselors like Dr. Grande is !! Thank you for doing this interesting video and I am glad, living in Europe, you upload your videos lately on an earlier time. I hope you're willing to keep doing that Dr. Grande. I wish you a happy weekend 😃🇳🇱
I have wondered about the "I am an important person" question on the MMPI before (specifically, a couple of months ago when I was looking up info on the MMPI). My first thought when I first saw the question was that the MMPI was trying to get to a narcissistic construct. I felt like answering 'False' to that question because I felt narcissistic answering 'True'. However, after talking about that question with other people, it made me think I would answer 'True' because I am important to my family and friends; and because, I believe, merely being alive gives a person inherent value (i.e., 'importance' and meaning). In other words, when a baby is born, I don't look at the baby and think, "OK, let's see how you turn out later in life to see if you prove you have value or importance." The baby already has it. I am still not sure what construct the "I am an important person" question is intending to get at on the MMPI. But it seems in this video, Dr. Grande suggests it is getting at narcissism. Is that so (I wonder)? Thank you for another great video!
I suppose what you believe would be better expressed by the a sentence like "I matter in this world, I have value intrinsically". I believe "I'm an important person" points out to a more... VIP point of view, let's say, isn't it?
Npd it seems is no longer a disorder. It seems a way of life for many of us. It is probably a consequence of the "development" of the whole society over the last 20 years. We totally depreciated the set of values after which we guided a rather long period and reinvented another, much more superficial.
"A way of life." That's put so well. I don't mean to repeat the obvious but I have to elaborate for myself, I'm sorry, I'm not very good at remembering.* *Personally believe that the advancements in technology are somewhat to blame, too. Social media accounts, cell phone cameras, personal blogs, online news outlets that let people become the keyboard warriors they are and other such things. That's some of the problem, imo.
@@BeckBeckGo 95% of managers believe they are in the top 10% of managers. They seem to be able to ignore that contradiction easily enough. If 80% believe they are very important, it could be a sign of the philosophy that everyone is very important. More likely, though, it's a sign of entitlement because if "I'm" very important, then certainly, others aren't as important as I am -- a good start to narcissism.
My little brother got mental health treatment when he was around 15 years old and I remember clearly that he told me that the psychologist told him to focus more on himself instead of thinking of everybody else all the time. He really became the worst narcissist I’ve ever met. Today he is 33 an year old drug addict who blames everyone for everything that has gone wrong in his life. He assaulted me a year ago, it resulted in a minor injury, some bruises and cuts and I remember waiting for a telephone from him apologizing for his actions. A month went by and then I got a phonecall from him asking me why I had not contacted him and apologized for my behavior towards him. As he attacked me for confronting him about stealing money from our mother, I accidentally tore his jacket while trying to keep him away from me while he assaulted me, and he seriously asked me to pay him money for the damages and buy him a new jacket. I am almost sure that the psychologist who treated my little brother “ignited” narcissism in him. He has torn our family apart with his behavior the last 15 years.
I am sorry for the trouble you have with your brother. An addict in the family is a tragedy. But I would be carefull as to externalize the responsibility. I don't believe in the concept of igniting a personality disorder with therapy. Your brother was troubled already back then. He is responsible for his irresponsible behaviour, if that makes sense to you. I understand that it is easier to blame it to the therapist and thus to an outsider. Yet easier is often not helping longterm.
The therapist gave him the biblical satan talk Me Myself I He is never coming back The therapist didn't really ignite he just didn't stop him from doing whatever he was already doing
I wonder if the change in the number of people answering positively to "Are you an important person?" is that the older generation interpreted "not important" as "not especially important" whereas the younger generation interpret "not important" as meaning something akin to "has no value". I think ILLAngel101 was making a similar point. I particularly liked your point that not encouraging children to think they're special is different from telling them they're rubbish. This raises the question is there a splitting epidemic? Keep up the good work!
It really is a good point. What sentences like that can mean in different times can change. However, that it does also tells a story, and the story here is that our culture shifts increasingly towards a stressed significance of the individual as opposed to society. John F. Kennedys remark that you shouldn't ask what society can do for you but what you can do for society seems to be from a very distant past now. Yet it is more accurate than ever. It's a big social experiment to increase one side of the balance continously. It will come the time when the system gets out of balance, when the price of individualism is way higher than the benefits. I would argue that we are close to that point if not even past it.
@@djembesoli1 I agree with what you are saying about society's overfocus on individualism, somewhat paradoxical as one might expect society as a whole to focus on the collective aspects of life. I think Dr Grande's use of the question "Are you important?" was meant to be illustrative, I assume there's more evidence of an overall rise in narcissism than the responses to just the one question. The increase from 12% to 80% positive responses is so striking that I think there has to be a shift in the way it's being interpreted from objectively to subjectively - although I suppose that in itself might be regarded as a sign of a societal increase in narcissism.
I think therapy gives the narcissist the answer book to socially acceptable ways to mirror empathy. I think that partners and counselors often give them the answer of what they need to say and what they should do. My ex's relationships greatly improved with me in his life because I was following behind him and saying you are not understanding you should (fill in the blank). It did not make him a better person, but rather more of a sympathetic person as he was 'trying'. Counseling did allow him a new channel for extracting what he wanted from others. He also became an expert at what he said to his counselor to get the support for his bad behaviors. I don't believe she knew he was a narcissist, but he sure would spin whatever to get the support for being an awful person and he took it a ran. So not only was he justified but actually had a professional telling him he was right. I seriously doubt she knew what he did to me and others, but I do think she was loading a gun and helping him aim at me (his main target).
To add to my comment. I’m referring to the parental boundary piece of your explanation Dr Grande. Since I was born in 62, I can look back at the differences in the way in general kids were parented. Thru the 70s the pretty much universal message was work hard, no one is going to hand you anything! No one got a trophy but say 3 kids. 1st place to 3rd place. Then from around the mid 80s it became every kid gets something as not to have winners or losers. I would think that atmosphere would only lay the groundwork for narcissists to flourish and expect the recognition?! Maybe it made no difference but there was this shift. Talk shows used this topic as well so I know the shift was “a thingZ” if you will! Thanks as always!
Great topic! I agreed to what you said, Dr. Grande! Some counselors are really talented in pointing out someone is feeling or thinking they are entitled without hurting the ego. I find that a very settle way to gain self awareness and insight without invoking defense mechanisms. Other times a counselor can be too challenging, too eager for change and results. I’m not sure if that’s useful. I’ve come across narcissists that changed radically throughout their lives after undergoing crisis and difficulties. It shapes personality!
Indeed. Adversity shows us who we are, but it also makes us who we are -- all the more so when we are young. Our avoidance of risk (via the feminizing of the culture here in the U.S. in the last 50 years) has given us a couple of generations of "helicopter parents" -- protecting kids from risk makes them weak, not strong, and fantasy-based, not reality-based.
TUCK - Hidden Values Helicopter parenting is definitely an issue. Everywhere I guess. But those kids have still the ability to emphasize, through fragile under pressure. The most harm is done when one parent is extra harsh, overly critical, with expectations too high, which leads the child to dismiss all criticism as a way to protect himself. While the other parent overcompensates by over valuing and over praising. This is where the super ego is born. Parents need to learn a not so soft, nor too harsh way to approach. A middle way, balanced. Dr. Rosenberg has great videos on discussing the origin of narcissism.
Todd Yes, might be. I don’t know them on the inside that well. But it was uplifting to see that grandiose arrogant type gain or learn some kindness. Even if it’s fake at the start. It might become a default mode if they keep it up.
@@لمىالشريف-غ8ك I think this is true. Right now, we suffer as a society from specific families with the inconsistency of parenting you describe, as well as a more general societal trend of risk- avoidance. The combination means we have more narcissism at various levels of severity, with different prospects for change. Praying that change happens, on both personal and societal levels!
Thank you for discussing this important topic. It would be good if individuals with NPD or high narcissism sought therapy in order to address the narcissism but most of these types of individuals seem to seek out a therapist solely to be listened to and sympathised with as "victims" of others and they'll actively seek out therapists who'll do this.
Another gem for the collection, thanx 4 your work =) Is it possible to make a video about how your youtube videos has benefited you? This must be a very different experience than what you get from regular counseling. Example: Can you use experiences from feedback here in regular counseling, or when talking with other people in your profession? I hope this journey is as benefiting for you as it must be for many of your viewers. Good luck in the future, and have a great weekend. =)
Thanks for the new time posts, Dr Grande. I have definitely learned such a lot from your videos on narcissism. One always has two choices in life: you can choose to learn from your adversity or you choose to become bitter, and believe life owes you. Speaking of myself, I have been a Christian for many years, but I could not understand that GOD loved me. I could say to you, GOD loves you. Only in the last ten years, have I understood that yes, GOD loves me. This has really made such a difference in my life. I think this is the main problem for the narcissist; the emptiness. Granted they have a lot of other problems that can't just be fixed, and need good counselors. I am really grateful for this channel, thanks again.
Yes -- huge difference between the harm of (false) self-esteem and the healing power of truthfully recognizing that each of us is "fearfully and wonderfully made"!
This concept of: ego dystonic vs. ego systonic & how it works was well illustrated! Fascinating analysis & explanation. Ask if you might consider a comment of pathology associated with "birth order," also: orphans. Believe there might be an oldest child: " curse." Can you elucidate on these topics sometime? Much gratitude!
That's where the Jungian approach of dream analysis is helpful for narcissists. Dreams show the dark shadow side of people's personality, so they are inherently critical of many of the narcissist's ego positions. Leading narcissists to accept these destructive dream figures as aspects of themselves brings increasing self-awareness and change. Therapy sessions are not non-judgmental since the dream contents are quite judgmental. One problem, however, is that as soon as some narcissists start realizing that negative dream figures are revealing negative aspects of the dreamer's personality, they alter the dream narrative or report only parts of dreams which don't seem to criticize them.
@@hamc9477 It hasn't been discredited. It's based on observation. It's hard to generate testable hypotheses from it. That goes for all psychodynamic approaches. There is empirical evidence that it is effective. Google Evidence for the Effectiveness of Jungian Psychotherapy: A Review of Empirical Studies. Neuroscience is now validating central ideas of psychoanalytic and analytic psychology which were denied or ignored by the cognitive and behavioral ego-strengthening approaches. Mainly the idea that most of our emotions and thinking go on outside of conscious awareness and beyond conscious control. And the importance of the dream for emotional regulation, learning, and problem solving. Dreams give insights into emotional patterns that are not entirely conscious.
Very interesting. Would you please talk about a communal narcissist. There is a big difference between autism and narcissism...could you please talk about that, too?
Dr. Grande, first, this is an absolutely fascinating topic. ❤ And you uploaded it so European-timezone-friendly. A ton of love for this is just being sent to Delaware. I'll write a second comment with my opinion on the topic itself.
Yes Esther, I'm also much happier about the time he's uploading his vids. I also read your other question to the Americans. You're right about this issue and the German gründlichkeit. Let's hope some will right a comment. Gute Nacht 😃
@@pocoeagle2 Thank you, Ben for your kind comment! Germany must currently be a strange neighbour to have. .. I sometimes read newspapers from Austria and Switzerland and what they write about Germany is... shockingly true. But from the Netherlands you're the only person I hear from. Instaed I eat their sweets and drink their tea... kostelijk ! ❤
@@djembesoli1 Oh, I'm sorry, YT hasn't given me a notification for your question... thank you for your interest on this. To German Gründlichkeit I have to say, that my opinion is based on subjective experience only, I don't know any - probably existing- research on this. The thoroughness imo still exists, but it has gotten, together with other similar virtues, like punctuality, conscientiousness, scrupulousness and sense of responsibility, devalued in public opinion. Bold, risk-taking and casual behaviours are seen as superior to these cluster C-like traits and people will tell you this in a more or less polite way. This shift imo has taken place somewhere in the beginning of this century. So, practically, showing thoroughness in Germany will put you at risk to be laughed at and to cause feelings and behaviours of being superior in your social environment. Hope this was helpful to you, have a great day. ⭐
@@mrs.reluctant4095 Ok, thanks. I would agree concering the shift of values, but not about the time frame. I think those typically German values started to decline slowly prolly with the installation of democracy after WW2, but noticable in 1968 and the aftermath of the student movement. The traditional values were desribed as being also "good for running a concentration camp", which - sadly - is true. And isn't the shift towards "bold, risk-taking and casual behaviours" not exactly an adaptation of American values, the values of the democratic victors or liberators? In Europe, the Germans are seen as little Americans. Ironically, now that we learned our lessons so well, big brother is changing and doesn't believe in democracy and multilaterism that much any more. The Musterschüler (model pupil) doesn't understand what he did wrong... As to the changes in the start of this millenium, I think it's just the decline of welfare state and corporate responsibility that kicked in with a bit of a time lag in the aftermath of the fall of the Berlin wall. Without socialism as the foe, our special economic status wasn't given any reason nor room for - we stoped being the shop-window of the benefits of capitalism to the East. The Anglo-American economic style has gotten globalized and thus standardized. That has taken it's toll in the ways we interact socially a lot IMO. People get squashed by their jobs and are too exhausted for much of the social interaction they did before. Instead they tend to retreat at home and to the internet.
It seems that narcissism has increased greatly. Actually, I am beginning to wonder if everyone I try to have a relationship with is in essence a narcissist.
Val Identity I’ve had this issue too. While learning about narcissism I found that I was feeling like I was one as well sometimes but we all fall onto the spectrum of narcissism somewhere... it’s healthy to have some degree of it, but some people are overboard. I really just think it’s a spiritual matter of the heart and conscience.
That could be true in the sense that you attract/are attracted to those people. You really need to evaluate your own behaviors and what attracts you to the people who turn out to be narcissistic. I'm guilty of doing this myself. When I made the correlation, they stopped being attractive and attracted to me.
@@MrJimmyTide but then, after starting dodging them, has it become easier to attract healthier partners? Have u been successful finding healthier partners?
Fascinating and valuable, as always, Dr. G.! I would add one thing to your comment about debunking the myth that narcissism leads to success.... I think it's true that our structures do lead to worldly success in the financial and leadership spheres (such as they are), and I agree that the answer here probably lies in structural change across the society. I suspect that, as with so many other things (like the teaching of empathy, for example), the road out of our current mess will be long and fraught with difficulty, as structural change will emerge only from social change. Recognizing -- and prioritizing -- success in its (many) other forms will be an important prerequisite to that! I suspect that in earlier generations, the more balanced recognition of and value on different success factors played a role in keeping our natural human narcissism at bay! 🙄
This is true. Biggest scourge of the internet: narcissistic trolls. Second-biggest scourge of the internet: People screaming about their "ex-narcs".... 😉
I wish you could have a video on Sam Vaknin or maybe with the man himself on Narcissism. He shares similar thoughts, although in certain aspects you could say he's more left field about the topic, even though he's one of the pioneers that took this construct to the next level of understanding.
Profound video, thank you! It's nice how you make points so variably and don't just argue for/defend some group of people. I agree that there are some problems with the vulnerable state of an otherwise grandiose narcissist, and how that is seen in counselling or other similar settings. It's no way an easy thing to spot, especially if you have no experience on the subject, so I understand counsellors who don't get it. There still should be somewhat better education about it.
When covering this topic in my classes I always liked to ask my students if we can teach empathy and then get their suggestions on how this could be done. I definitely see is rise in narcissism and entitlement. Very interesting video. Excellent!! Thank you.
great video as always, Dr. Grande! can you do a video analyzing a Luka Magnotta, internet killer featured in the Netflix documentary: “Don’t F*** With Cats?” would love to hear your input on the topic. Thanks and Happy New Years!
I'm not convinced that there is an "narcissism epidemic," but I do agree that people's social behavior has become less kind over the years. Societal pressures bear down on individuals and all of us collectively, and a lot of us have zero or very poor coping skills to deal with that pressure. We're all dealing with a "Future Shock" culture and doing our best to acclimate to and navigate it with varying degrees of success. Blaming others and not taking personal responsibility for our part(s) in this unkind world will get us nowhere. That being said, I do believe that Narcissistic Personality Disorder is a real thing and that some people do suffer from it. They are ones who would benefit from appropriate therapy, but would probably seldom seek it. Once again, a VERY thought-provoking video, Dr. Grande. Thank you!
Also, this narcissism stuff is perpetuated generation after generation, for which this verse makes it clear... the person I just dealt with has a history of this on one side of the family, the vulnerable narcissist Apple not falling far from the tree, wealthy family, seemingly shy but so twisted... scary.. 1 Peter 5:5-6 5 Likewise, you who are younger, be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.” 6 Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you,
Yesssssss! (Undiagnosed, or those in denial) Narcs/Borderlines don't heal, they just become better narcs/borderlines. BTW great point about therapists (esp ones not trained to treat personality disorders) simply validating the narcs/borderlines' feelings. My BPD/covert NPD ex did go to therapy, but (1) she was savvy enough to hide her personality disorder from her (poorly trained) therapist, and (2) she just used the therapist to make her feel good about herself.
Ryan fatguyinlilcoat stop blaming others get out in your world and do things for others as this is a way for you to treat your self. Radical empathy when someone asks say cause I care, and leave it at that
The question "I am an important person." Can be taken in more than one way. It could mean "I am important because I am better than everyone else" or "I am important to myself because I am the only person I have direct responsibility for". Unless, of course if test is asking this question in some sort of context.
I thought too that maybe many of the younger generation interpreted that question in a way that they have an important value as human being - just like everyone else has too. That doesn't mean that they would consider themselves as more important than others.
My struggle with taking the MMPI as a class exercise in freshman psych was exactly this -- the lack of context for dozens of subtle questions like this. I was hung up for days (literally -- had a consultation with my prof and everything!) on "It is more important to be just than merciful." 😅 Wherever you are, Dr. Miller -- sorry.... 😉
Maybe that question would be better formed as: "I am a significant person". I think that it might be translated like that in my language (at least more suitable translation to the word significant is used more often than the translation for the word important.) "I am an important person" can be interpreted as "I matter" or "I have value", and if you state that you are not important, how does that sound nowadays? Maybe the meaning of the word has changed a bit along the change in the overall culture (from "everyone should just do their job and not think too high of themselves" to "everyone has value").
I was married to a covert vulnerable narcissist. Therapy was never going to help and made things worse. After years of emotional and some physical abuse, infidelity and gaslighting I was a wreck. He wore his "mask" and charmed the therapist. Statistically female therapists are more biased against the wives. 😠
Thank you dr Grande, excellent video, very helpful. My husband went a few times to the therapist (she advertises herself as a psychologist and a life coach, personality disorders are not listed in her specialties.). The result would have been funny if it were not sad and more difficult for me. She confirmed there is absolutely nothing wrong with my husband, that I do behave as often woman do having different moods (angry or upset) and he should simply ignore me and do whatever he needs to do and if at all, deal with consequences later. The issue is about the triangulation, he has a lover and after the "therapy" he formally declared he is entitled to have one.
Might there not be a difference in interpretation of the statement “I am an important person” from one generation to the next? For instance, one generation might mostly read it as “I am more important than others” and another generation might read it as “I am as important as others.” I don’t think that would mean anything necessarily about the increase in narcissism, but I do wonder about the validity of using that as a true/false question to measure narcissistic self-importance.
Those are the same statement. Every value judgement is made in comparison to others. On a societal level, not every person is equally important. That's why the president has secret service, while unemployed people often go without simple shelter It may be a reflection that people focus more on the abstract (existentialist) sense of self-importance rather than the concrete (sociocultural) sense of self-importance. This may be all well and good, but when this mindset affects how you interact with others (demanding unearned benefits at work, expecting worship in relationships, limiting ability to form genuinely selfless connections, etc.), it rises to the level of pathology
My ex spouse verbally attacked the counselor. Tried to belittle them and accused me wanting couples counseling as a prelude to the separation. He also assumed that I was the one, not US, needing growth and understanding...he is now on his third relationship after me. When we met he had been married and divorced twice...I tried.
I am sceptical that narcissism is more widespread today than it has been in the past. I suggest people read Dickens. In Charles Dickens' novels we see wonderful portrayals of every kind of narcissism imaginable. The public in Dickens' time loved those books because they related to what they were reading. They'd seen that narcissism in people in their own lives.
But many of Dickens characters were just pompous, is that not true. Dickens himself however was quite a fraud when it came to geniality. He was despicable in his treatment of his wife and his taking up (euphemism) with a young mistress. But I digress.
A narcissist with low empathy can learn to act pro-social when it's in their own self interest but can you teach them to genuinely care about other people?
Over controlling, such as the "helicopter parenting" of the early 1990s has been repeatedly shown to be an emotional damaging cue that causes the need to develop narcissistic personality traits, and often even psychopathic personality traits. first result from an edu domain on this: www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=aquila.usm.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi%3Farticle%3D2518%26context%3Ddissertations&ved=2ahUKEwjCt9P-8ZznAhVHG80KHYChAcYQFjABegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw3C_YGNWGBmq0885O1vpexn
Sam Vaknin believes it's the cultural construction in the "West" that rewards narcissism, not necessarily the personality disorder. I agree with this but somethings he says are dubious. I wonder what you'd think about his work.
@@paulinebrown6807 She wasn’t dismissing Sam but yet shared her experience which is fair. You should respected other people’s opinions even if they don’t mesh with yours. Lastly, it has also been my experience, that while Sam V., in amazing I’m his work, he absolutely has blind spots because he himself is a narcissist...this is a fact.
Excellent topic question to tackle, Dr G. Agree with your conclusive points at the end, except the idea that getting NPDs into treatment is a good idea - in my experience, it doesn't make positive changes but rather fuels their disorder further; they selectively hear / take what they want to hear (fully discarding the challenges), further lie/distort the truth, and manipulate the therapist into believing their lies.
Excellent video, Dr Grande, really opened my eyes to this issue. Would you elaborate on the 4 points at the end, especially regarding parenting practices that inadvertently lead to increasing narcissist traits in children? As a new mom, I really am interested in your expert opinion as well as what the research says. I would not want to raise my son in a way that would harm him in the long term, especially following today’s parenting culture that seems much too indulgent and “child-led”. Thank you sir.
Regarding the "I am important" true/untrue question: Have you ever seen "the Help"? Since around the 60's mothers have told their children increasingly to see themselves as important and valuable. This is typically meant as value as an individual and not meaning "valuable in comparison to others". I dont think that question can indicate narcissism in younger generations as they've been conditioned to the word "important" regarding self.
Id say hell yes therapy can make it worse. IF the therapist doesnt see through their bs.. Ive known a couple of people who would always describe them selves as victims. People rejecting them, screwing them over, they felt. One went to therapy and was told to hold to her own truth etc.. In reality she was extremely dominant, controlling and belittling to everyone close to her, but she didnt say that in therapy... There she was the one trying to do everything for people and no one appreciated it.. She came out like, hey Im great and you all need to treat me better... She most deff needed to have had some family come with her to treatment, so they could call her out on all the lies she told both herself and the therapist..
This is quite an interesting video, though not unlike your others. It really causes one to think about any narcissists they know, as well as the narcissistic traits they have themselves. I say this because I assume I have narcissistic ticks that I have to keep watch over and I remember seeing a test for narcissism online that I thought was rather stupid. For me, it was clear that anyone who understood anything at all about narcissism, including narcissists, would likely know the appropriate answers to the questions on behavior. That the problem comes in, when you understand what’s appropriate - but have so much more fun not actually being appropriate, which is not me, but I’ve seen it in the duping delight and schadenfreude of my mother. So, anyone could’ve ticked off the right answers, but it didn’t mean they weren’t a narcissist. This video parses out that type of thing.
It depends on how you look at it - I do believe those with NPD, who tend to manipulate and "use" anyway, what happens in therapy is they learn the particular therapy style they are in and learn how to slide through. I've seen it first hand. They use it while they are in it, then after therapy stops they no longer use the tools and if it was marriage therapy they turn on the spouse and project how the spouse is the one "doing it wrong." I think in this sense, it wouldn't use the word "worse" - I think it's more appropriate to say it enables them to keep doing what they are doing. It doesn't get worse, it simply makes them want to look at themselves less, which is what they are not wanting to do anyway (or unable to do). It's just another self-object that they use in their path of using people as object, throughout the lifetime. It makes you wonder, with the work of Otto Kernberg or even Bessel van der Kolk - how personality disordered people ever came to their office for treatment to begin with. But many narcissists slide in and out of therapy office none the worse for wear and only marginally more self-aware afterwards. The idea is that the attachment they have to friends or spouses is what might heal them and their childhood attachment deficits or get them to look in the mirror. The conundrum is that those who are healthy are tired of dealing with them and those who are unhealthy are just enablers. The only time they even have a notion to take a glimpse is when one of the enablers or codependents decides to step outside of that role and get boundaries. But even that takes a LONG road before even just slight shifts will occur. It's an arduous and exhausting task for those in close relationship to a narcissist.
That is the best non-clinical summary of this experience I have ever read. Permission to share in a training setting? With or without a name? Thank you.... -- Tracy Tucker Cooksey
@@tuck-brainwks-eutent-hidva1098 sure. I'm a graduate student in counseling so it's a bit clinical. 😁 I've just experienced it firsthand so that's how I know. The human development and psychology classes are what helped give names to experiences I've had. 👍
My malignant narc ex-husband has been going to counseling with the same social worker since he was 4 years old (he's now 38). His entire family goes to to this man (unethical). This social worker told me in my own session (I didn't know understand it was a HIPPA violation) that he "couldn't challenge him" on certain issues. This counselor told us both (in a couple's session again, not ethical) that my ex's behavior was going to get worse after we moved away for his first big corporation ladder jump, but that it was "going to go back to normal" after that role was over and we moved back. He was anticipating a heightened state in the devaluation phase (not understanding the reality of that phase) and telling us both about it, watching me walk off into what turned into severe and life-altering abuse. And the presentation of him anticipating my husband's inexcusable behavior game him carte blanche to do so. It became another one of his "rights". The point to this comment is that I watched my ex become more and more skilled at his factor 2 behavioral traits and use them to relentlessly move high up in corporate America via the insights of this enabling, plotting and triangulating social worker. I think the main problem with the mental health industry (from a US perspective) is that unrecovered reactive codependents and high spectrum narcs are allowed to use their licenses to work out their childhoods at the expense of other people's souls/lives; people that are asking for help.
In my youth it was ADD! Then, it was ADHD! Then, it was Asperger's! Then, it was Sociopathy! And now it's Narcissism! It's the popular diagnosis of the day. Though its popularity as an amateur diagnosis by the layman does not account for the measurable, clinical increase in narcissism. Pretty sure the appeal of therapy is a consequence of the increase.
True. You've forgot the borderline epidemic, extremely popular diagnosis in the nineties. And earlier in the 60ies and 70ies everyone who was different was actually considered schizophrenic. Nowadays you're either a narcissist, bipolar or both.
Here’s a thought. Dr Grande, I wonder if ADHD/ADD can be mistaken for narcissism. These two do seem to share at least a few similarities in the behavior of the sufferers. Please do a video on that. Thanks! 🙏🏾
I think it's entirely possible. Both ADHD and narcissistic abuse are rampant on my father's side of the family, and I'm starting to think that a lot of my relatives adopted narcissistic behaviors as a coping mechanism, a desire to manipulate and control others because they feel like they have no control over themselves. For my father and aunt at least, counseling has been helpful. But then, they don't have full-blown NPD.
Rene P Absolutely! My ex seems to tick every CN box, and a few years ago she was insisting she had ADD (but in the end refused to seek treatment). A video on this would definitely be appreciated Dr G.
Narcissistic Abuse Rehab Mmmmmm. 🥰 As always, it’s good to see you. As for me, just still coping with this on/off, hot/cold, push/pull “relationship” of mine. She hasn’t ghosted completely, but things are definitely chillier now than just 3 weeks ago. I’m starting to suspect she is some form of ADHD instead of narcissistic. Maybe next time her and I get together, I’ll just ask her what medicines she takes. 😅
Speaking from personal experience yes. Until I got my diagnosis, my wife tried to convince me that I was a narcissist. My wife was convinced everybody was a narcissist including her parents and my father… And she was right about those three. And then I got diagnosed for ADHD started proper treatment, and she started to become abusive, she started to become narcissistic or more pointedly, the mask fell off. But here's the thing. I've always cared aboutOther people and their feelings. As a matter of fact, for many years I was the guy folks would come to when they needed some empathy. But I was a codependent. A lot of moving parts it can be incredibly complex, and it can make you feel crazy. But, I've done a lot of reading, and I'm no doctor, it would seem that currently, there's no known comorbidity between ADHD and NPD
There's an individual out there explaining how NPD works, and says he was counseled to do so by his therapist. He claims to be an overt narcissist (which he calls a greater narc), and he also freely says that he is forcing other narcissists to step up their game. If others know who I am talking about (I won't give a name here)-- perhaps this could be considered another example of counseling leading a narc to worsen their behavior. I also recall him being interviewed by two people and one of the interviewers exhibits some control issues, and also seemed to get worse after that interview.
But the "worse" as I understand it, is the narc in therapy learns the speak, and is then better able to charm and fake empathy to their victims. So u are increasing their skills at raking normalcy.
Some of the most narcissistic people I've ever encountered r on Narcissistic Victim pages. Some of them r the folk who actually run those pages, pages where there's a trope that if u are looking at narcissist pages, it means that u r not a narcissist. Ha ha ha! Well narcissists would sat that, right? Scratch their surface, and u come across the most self absorbed, privileged, pompous, overbearing people, on the internet. Victimhood bestows so much privilege. Narcissism is like child abuse, victims become abusers, narc victims b come narcs.
Dr, can you consider doing a video on C-PTSD? It's a relatively new diagnosis, but one more and more people seem to be affected by, particularly those of us in the millennial generation coming into our 30s, which almost seems like the minimum age for a lot of people being diagnosed.
Psychotherapy validated, inflated and empowered my ex NPD's appalling and damaging behaviour, enabling even-more destructive behaviour towards others. Therapy was an abject failure, waste of time and money, and, if anything, gave him a badge of honour with which to increase his levels of harm. Research needs to understand on a qualitative level the lack of effective treatment by poorly trained therapists. Even those who do challenge NPDs can spectacularly fail to achieve any meaningful positive change in the client.
1. Focusing on NPD statistics undereports the extent to which narcissism is a problem as vulnerable narcissism as well as high narscissm can be a problem even if it doesnt rise to the level of NPD. Moreover even NPD may be underdiagnosed. That said, better data may be hard to come by. 2. It would be interesting to do more videos on the origins of narcissism and narisccism and parenting (what type of parenting leads to narcissism - bot grandiose and vulnerable). Also more videos on the affects of narcissism (both types) on coparenting would be interesting.
He has a video on #2, but I don't remember which one. He talks about which parenting styles by mom and dad might lead to narcissism, there are four types in general and 2 each that have a connection to it. I wish I could remember which video it was, but I've been watching a ton of his videos lately so it's difficult!
You may be aware of the Antonio Brown saga, an NFL player, who has created non-stop drama, with a capital D, recently. I am glad to see that when he was arrested the other day the judge set bail, which Mr. Brown was able to make and which included a number of conditions, chief among them that he get a mental health evaluation. I would venture that's the first time he was ever told he had to do that. Maybe it will lead to counseling and he can change his behavior. Much better than isolation. I am keeping my fingers crossed for him. Thanks for a thought provoking video Dr. G.
What I've seen is ppl with npd go to therapy with an agenda and a "need to know" type of sharing.....they continue with lies of omission per usual and inflate any character defects of everyone in their life. They look for pity and attention, are horrific historians, and tell and retell the same stories and embellish them and give alternate endings as needed depending on the person, place or time. It's fairly useless( treatment) to improve interpersonal relationships, might help a suicidal npd get on meds, talk therapy, but basically their honestly is elusive, selective , basically nonexistent. No long term person in their life will continue to respond to this shallow, dishonest bs of a relationship. Friends come and go as they catch on.....counselors too.....sad state of affairs for all.
I used to wonder about this. If my mother went to a therapist and said ''my daughter is acting like I hurt her! how dare she! That is impossible. After all I did for her, she tries to hurt me by claiming that I hurt her!'' would the therapist have *validated* that martyred indignance?
I am fascinated by what it is like...how people experience the process of seeking treatment...how it is different for those with a certain dx versus others?...particularly diagnoses resistant to treatment such as NPD...
Do you think that Mr. Rogers’ comments to children can promote narcissism or are those type of comments healthy in promoting self esteem? Telling children they’re unique comes to mind.
For one of the studies you mentioned, I would argue those may not be useful measures to represent narcissism. I would have to read the article, and I’m sure they mentioned limitations, but job expectation and charity donations are particularly problematic in my opinion. For example, there is an increase in the number of people getting college degrees, yet there is a significant problem with underemployment in the United States. I would argue that someone graduating from college is reasonable in expecting a higher paying job than was the average decades ago. However, given societal circumstances it may be unrealistic. This disparity doesn’t make them narcissistic. Similarly, we have seen a minimum wage that does not keep up with inflation. It is arguable that young adults today suffer financially in ways that past generations may not have experienced (for example, housing costs etc.). They may not be donating to charity at the same rates because they don’t have the means, not because they are narcissistic. Again, I’m sure the article didn’t imply that these were valid measures of narcissism, but in my opinion they are worse than invalid. They’re practically useless. This is probably harsh without my reading the article, just wanted to type it out while it was on my mind.
"A man’s character is most evident by how he treats those who are not in a position either to retaliate or reciprocate."
(Paul Eldridge)
Daniel, you always have the best quotes.
@@evelynwaugh4053 "In the dying world I come from, quotation is a national vice." '_'
Awesome Quote !
@@TheMerryPup an excellent world it would be if quotations were the only vice of nations :)
@@evelynwaugh4053 ''An excellent world it would be if quotations were the only vice of nations. '' - Evelyn Waugh
I can speak from my own experience as a wife of someone with narcissistic pathology who was in therapy for over a year: it got worse. Extremely worse. Having a platform to have his feelings and distorted thoughts constantly validated gave him the fuel he needed to continue his abuse.
My ex had to see a doc about his behavior and he came home and said that he needs to forgive himself. What? He never asked me for forgiveness.
Lady Marah, that was my experience exactly. Therapy only made my ex NPD feel more empowered to behave destructively.
Yes, yes, yes. And they learned what to use against you from that as well. And "Christian" counseling is even worse than that because the counselors encourage you to "love anyway" and give them the benefit of the doubt, and give them "sacrificial love", and "wives submit to husbands" crap which sets you up royally for more of the worst kind of abuse. My Christian counselor actually asked me to seduce my obviously-cheating husband so he could "see where his head is at"!!! And you can't go to a different counselor and start over, because they all know each other and talk. I know. I interviewed 3 more of them, and still found out later they all knew each other. And the first question they ask is "have you seen any other counselors", and make you sign a disclaimer that you are not seeing another counselor. So what do you do? Front-loaded to be a losing proposition. Just like @SAVE TRUMP's response above, in 10 years of Christian counseling, it was all about him. Never received an indication that my needs factored in anywhere in the process.
@@shakengrain1942 Christian councils are the worst, and I'm a Christian.
I agree
Thank you for addressing the "self esteem" boosting!! Since junior high, when the girl bullying me got an award in front of the school for "self-esteem", I have deeply questioned the phrase.
Key is a therapist who is educated in personality disorders is what I'm hearing if I understand correctly. Your comments on how to move forward on the societal level are excellent, we absolutely need to move away from teaching our children that they're awesome at everything while encouraging them appropriately. Wonderful presentation, thank you.
My mother got better at first with therapy - we had a highly competent family therapist. It was only when she herself became a counselor that she got really bad. I think she learned enough that she felt confident she knew more than everyone else, so nothing she did was wrong. She was simply the most unappreciated wife and mother (and counselor !) in the world. 🙄
Nothing worse than a dysfunctional parent with a psych degree. Nothing. It took me a long time to accept a lot of therapy language thanks to my mother.
My ex-BPD went to a therapist for the first time (at age 44) when our relationship imploded.
It was hilarious when she came home after the 3rd appointment and told me how angry she was that she had tried to tell the therapist all her stories of abuse and victimhood, and her therapist kept telling her, “You weren’t the victim. You were the PERPETRATOR in that situation.”
I highly doubt that she continued to see such a therapist who attempted to hold her accountable.
Some people only get esteem from degrading others. They are weak.
BPD bipolar personality disorder? We are focusing on NPD here, maybe you meant NPD.
Stephen Powdexter
Borderline Personality Disorder. It’s very well within the topic.
B T
That’s a valid question that I DO have an answer for.
That woman is still the oldest I have ever dated, and my only explanation is that she was someone I’d had a thing for from when I was 11-13.
Before I give you the rest of the explanation, I should preface it with the fact that she was still 5’7” 126 pounds of an almost flawless physique (which also might have been a red flag, except that both of us shared that gym obsession).
She was my sister’s best friend and she was in most of my classes for those years, so I’d had a lot of exposure to her then.
Combine that with ZERO contact and exposure to her for 30 years, and a very well-curated social media photo gallery, and all I can think of to explain it is that our previous history brought me back to a place where I couldn’t see her objectively.
This was confirmed 6 months after our relationship ended and she hoovered me with a Halloween photo she had just taken. I delete or burn all photos, and digitally delete all traces of exes, so I hadn’t seen any images of this woman after the breakup.
The whole time we were together I had genuinely believed that she was objectively beautiful.
When I received the photo I was shocked at how ugly and old she looked, which, being only 6 months later, and her being a co-morbid Borderline/NPD who would never have sent an unfiltered, unflattering photo, can really only be explained as my NOW seeing her objectively for what she was: a 44-year old psychological black hole and physical husk of what she had been when I knew her in my developing, impressionable years.
chris palmer
I concur.
BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder) is in the same D.S.M.-5 Cluster B category as NPD. The Dramatic & Erratic Cluster.
(APD) Antisocial Personality Disorder
(BPD) Borderline Personality Disorder
(HPD) Histrionic Personality Disorder
(NPD) Narcissistic Personality Disorder
Great topic. Shout out to the individual who asked the question.
Definitely a Sopranos fan inspired by the final Melfi arc.
Fascinating topic. Allow me to encourage public reconnaissance for the gentleperson who developed the concept and formulated the query.
I personally think that it is an epidemic because most of these don’t get diagnosis done. Also the covert types are good at masking themselves. A person higher on the spectrum of narcissism is also capable of inflicting great damage as compared to a fully blown NPD. There are lots of these people with high narcissistic traits who go unseen and undiagnosed.
What is not mentioned is that therapy can be harmful to the victim of someone with NPD when they are seeking marital counseling. The narcissist will use everything against the spouse later.
My brother in law begged my sister to go to marital counselig for years. She first agreed to go to therapy after he left her and when he told her, he will definitively won't come back she said, she wanted to stop therapy because it doesn't make any sense any more if she doesn't get her husband back. Therapy was just her try to make her husband come back. After all, in her mind she wasn't in the wrong at all.
My narc’s mask would always come off in the car on the way home from the marriage counselor.
@@Cowface Same...Onetime he was telling me how I lied and I started crying because I was so confused. Then he went into Burger King and got a cheese burger while I sat in the car with tears streaming down my face. It made no sense to me.
Omg thank you. I agree that we need to stop over-boosting unfounded confidence and we instead need to (1) give praise when merited and (2) encourage empathy with others. Thank you.
Interesting. If we encourage them to get therapy, is it for them, or for everyone in their path of destruction? Because I can't imagine a narcissist ever admitting to a problem.
Thank you, Dr Grande. 👍❄☃️
Bingo! I can't imagine anyone attached to an NPD ever actually telling them they are one. Seems it would have to be to address a specific "harmless" or "non-threatening" daily issue, then gently unpeel from there.
Shaken Grain yes.
You are so smart - thank you for explaining every personality disorder so well
Couples counseling gives the NPD info/ weapons to further abuse their target/spouse. Most counselors are not fully trained and aware of the damage their tactics/ manipulation cause and engage in victim blaming, which further leads to more ammunition for the cluster B type to use against their spouse after they get home, or they'll use it when they think it will publically embarrass, etc
Also they don't usually self report being narcissistic.
S P this happened to me I Divorced after 30 years. You are so right .
The problem is that couples do the counseling together. They need to go to counseling separetely for months or years and then go together. Otherwise it fails. Also divorce os not failure. It could be the healthiest choice.
@@theinterruptionwithriansar3768 I don't consider it a failure, but people stay in these relationships for many different reasons. You never know until you have walked in someone else's shoes.
@@SP-uj5jn yes. I said divorce isnt always failure.
First Last your right. I know my Divorce wasn’t a failure I learned a lot and are still learning.
War causes the most trauma/ drama (same energy). Drama perpetuates more trauma and therefore people have a war like tendencies for example survival mode/ competitiveness, feeling that you are not enough or there's not enough resources for everyone. Psychopathy, narcissism and sociopathy are a product of war. In reality we are all abundance in love, peace, wisdom etc. We are enough
May I suggest that the human species MARINATING in alcohol, is the necessary first step in all the trauma of violence u talk of? In 100% of collage rapes, BOTH parties were on alcohol. Louis Theroux said in his doc on Death Row, 100% of the cases on death row were alcohol related. 100,000 people die from booze yearly. 1 in 4 drinking 18 year olds who WILL die of booze, r usually introduced by loved 1s. Eliminating booze is a good start, so it's suspicious when comments like yours make no mention.
BF TE
Yes, I agree
War definitely causes severe trauma and activates survival mode.
Narcissism as a result
Everybody is putting themselves first, survival mode!
@@brusselsprout5851 Settle petal, no need 2 get rowdy.
What do u call a drunk all alone in a bar - a fight! How's the head now? :-)
Judy Lee
A traumatized person has trust issues for sure.
But I wouldn’t say that is Narcissism.
Being self absorbed because of PTSD Is different than seeing yourself above everyone else.
Or thinking one is entitled to harm just anyone because they have been harmed, that is where narcissism kicks in.
Arrogance is a major component is narcissism, I suppose.
Juliet Tailor
Yes, I get what you’re saying.
If you don’t fit in or can’t obtain a job, you’re homeless on the streets.
Survival mode
Some people say I’m narcissistic but I have nothing but contempt for them.
that made me laugh!
🤣🤣🤣🤣
😉
Dr. Grande doesn’t cease to amaze. Thank you Dr. Grande for another great video! Your analysis is very impressive as always.
Someone I know well, was forced into couselling and would constantly tell me how he was playing to therapist!
That is probably exactly what a Narcissist would think, being overly confident of their cleverness, while a Histrionic PD would hope the therapist was attracted to them, a BPD that the therapist wouldn't leave them, a PPD that the therapist was in league with their workplace, significant other, etc.
Wow, as always, you really nailed it again! Thank you for this video . I might disagree on the statistics. Unfortunately, the 3 long term relationships I have had in my lifetime were all with Narcissists or Sociopaths, perhaps even a Psychopath. I do have to take into consideration that I was most likely a target because of my horrifically abusive childhood, and therefore easy prey to predators. We were never allowed any kind of boundaries for ourselves as children, the word no never came out of our mouths as it was not allowed, and we were expected to obey any command given to us by an adult, even when we knew it put us (really just me, not my sisters) in danger. But even they were not allowed any autonomy or choices. So perhaps my view is skewed because of this. But the more I learn from you about Narcissists, Sociopaths and Psychopaths, the more my life makes sense. It was never my fault that I was victimized over and over. And the more determined I am to never allow myself to be treated badly again. So thank you for all you do, Dr. Grande.
@@brusselsprout5851 I did. Not anymore.
So sorry about the nightmare you lived through as a young person 😔, and in relationships -- glad you are keeping yourself safer now! Good for you -- hang in there! 🙏
There's a HUGE difference between things like being obsessed with your appearance, taking tons of selfies for social media & actual NPD. Just throwing that out there. I'm sure Dr. G understands this... others might not. NPD is a conundrum & the misuse of mental illness labels ("She's so OCD!") doesn't help.
Excellent topic. Most channels are talking about how to recognize NPD and maybe understand it. We need more on what to do about it beside No Contact which just makes it someone else’s problem. Maybe how do you get someone into therapy? What is the right way to confront someone? How do we stop enabling them?
This is what I am curious about. My husband and I have noticed my father's behavior get progressively worse. I don't really want to talk to him anymore after a huge fight started over something inane and it progressed into a screaming match about how everyone is against him. He crossed the line when he blamed my mom for my brother's suicide. He is highly outgoing and has zero boundaries about what is socially acceptable. Alcohol makes it worse.
The funny/sad part is that he is living in his own self fulfilled prophecy. Most people don't want to deal with him anymore because of how much he has and continues to hurt the people around him.
James Gerboc especially if the narc has some socially destructive habits like alcoholism. Battling the alcoholism whilst at the same time developing some empathy capacity for themselves and people around them has a direct benefit for society. As they may be less likely to drink and drive, more likely to not pour that next drink , as they like themselves more over they may learn to like being that person who expresses care for others.
Just stop contacting them if you don’t like them.
@@ciobalina7445 That only makes the problem go away for you, not for them or their next victim.
@@jamesgerboc Their next victim won’t believe you anyway until it happens to them. Narcissists target specific people: empaths with boundary problems, people with low self-esteem... or if they’re vulnerable, those that criticise them. You can’t warn people because they don’t believe you anyway. And once it happens, the only way is to plan your exit safely. If it’s your boss and they target you, run!! Find a new job quickly. It it’s a family member, minimize contact as much as possible. Lover? LEAVE safely. There is no other way. If it’s a problem for them, they will seek help. I know at least one person with narcissistic traits who’s been in therapy for years. You can’t “get them” into therapy. Therapy doesn’t work like that. And honestly therapy is not the be all, end all. I’ve been to therapy for years and I’ve done 90% of the work.. for myself, to improve my life by changing some things in myself. I can do those things on MY own; I don’t need therapy to change, it’s just helpful and I can have more and quicker improvement. If a person doesn’t want to change, then honestly you are being avusive to want to force them to change. If it really becomes a problem for them, they will seek help on their own, but don’t abuse them trying to “force”. It’s just.. not nice. Plus, how do you know they’re the problem and not you?
Great insight and knowledge you have about these narcissistic issues in modern society. I agree with you about the ways how to try to create fundamental approaches to battle narcissism in general, but it's very difficult I think.
We also need much more good counselors like Dr. Grande is !!
Thank you for doing this interesting video and I am glad, living in Europe, you upload your videos lately on an earlier time. I hope you're willing to keep doing that Dr. Grande. I wish you a happy weekend 😃🇳🇱
Dr. Grande for President.
I have wondered about the "I am an important person" question on the MMPI before (specifically, a couple of months ago when I was looking up info on the MMPI). My first thought when I first saw the question was that the MMPI was trying to get to a narcissistic construct. I felt like answering 'False' to that question because I felt narcissistic answering 'True'. However, after talking about that question with other people, it made me think I would answer 'True' because I am important to my family and friends; and because, I believe, merely being alive gives a person inherent value (i.e., 'importance' and meaning). In other words, when a baby is born, I don't look at the baby and think, "OK, let's see how you turn out later in life to see if you prove you have value or importance." The baby already has it.
I am still not sure what construct the "I am an important person" question is intending to get at on the MMPI. But it seems in this video, Dr. Grande suggests it is getting at narcissism. Is that so (I wonder)?
Thank you for another great video!
I suppose what you believe would be better expressed by the a sentence like "I matter in this world, I have value intrinsically". I believe "I'm an important person" points out to a more... VIP point of view, let's say, isn't it?
The more I think about this item the worse it appears to me. Totallly ambigious. Should be removed.
Npd it seems is no longer a disorder. It seems a way of life for many of us. It is probably a consequence of the "development" of the whole society over the last 20 years. We totally depreciated the set of values after which we guided a rather long period and reinvented another, much more superficial.
Cristina Deak it is a sad thought that crosses my mind often as well
Existentialism is part of the cause.
"A way of life." That's put so well. I don't mean to repeat the obvious but I have to elaborate for myself, I'm sorry, I'm not very good at remembering.*
*Personally believe that the advancements in technology are somewhat to blame, too. Social media accounts, cell phone cameras, personal blogs, online news outlets that let people become the keyboard warriors they are and other such things. That's some of the problem, imo.
But if 80% of people believe they’re very important, doesn’t that kind of water their importance down?
@@BeckBeckGo 95% of managers believe they are in the top 10% of managers. They seem to be able to ignore that contradiction easily enough. If 80% believe they are very important, it could be a sign of the philosophy that everyone is very important. More likely, though, it's a sign of entitlement because if "I'm" very important, then certainly, others aren't as important as I am -- a good start to narcissism.
My little brother got mental health treatment when he was around 15 years old and I remember clearly that he told me that the psychologist told him to focus more on himself instead of thinking of everybody else all the time. He really became the worst narcissist I’ve ever met. Today he is 33 an year old drug addict who blames everyone for everything that has gone wrong in his life. He assaulted me a year ago, it resulted in a minor injury, some bruises and cuts and I remember waiting for a telephone from him apologizing for his actions. A month went by and then I got a phonecall from him asking me why I had not contacted him and apologized for my behavior towards him. As he attacked me for confronting him about stealing money from our mother, I accidentally tore his jacket while trying to keep him away from me while he assaulted me, and he seriously asked me to pay him money for the damages and buy him a new jacket.
I am almost sure that the psychologist who treated my little brother “ignited” narcissism in him. He has torn our family apart with his behavior the last 15 years.
I am sorry for the trouble you have with your brother. An addict in the family is a tragedy. But I would be carefull as to externalize the responsibility. I don't believe in the concept of igniting a personality disorder with therapy. Your brother was troubled already back then. He is responsible for his irresponsible behaviour, if that makes sense to you. I understand that it is easier to blame it to the therapist and thus to an outsider. Yet easier is often not helping longterm.
The therapist gave him the biblical satan talk
Me
Myself
I
He is never coming back
The therapist didn't really ignite he just didn't stop him from doing whatever he was already doing
One of your best video Dr Grande! Very appreciate thank you.
Thanks for these precisions and the bibliographic references!
👍🏻 Dr Grande, thank you for this one especially. I’m a parent who will be watching this one again. 💗 Great info for us. 🙏
Solid observations Dr. Grande you continue to enlighten...much gratitude!
I wonder if the change in the number of people answering positively to "Are you an important person?" is that the older generation interpreted "not important" as "not especially important" whereas the younger generation interpret "not important" as meaning something akin to "has no value". I think ILLAngel101 was making a similar point.
I particularly liked your point that not encouraging children to think they're special is different from telling them they're rubbish. This raises the question is there a splitting epidemic?
Keep up the good work!
This is a good point.
It really is a good point. What sentences like that can mean in different times can change. However, that it does also tells a story, and the story here is that our culture shifts increasingly towards a stressed significance of the individual as opposed to society. John F. Kennedys remark that you shouldn't ask what society can do for you but what you can do for society seems to be from a very distant past now. Yet it is more accurate than ever. It's a big social experiment to increase one side of the balance continously. It will come the time when the system gets out of balance, when the price of individualism is way higher than the benefits. I would argue that we are close to that point if not even past it.
@@djembesoli1 You hit the nail on the head!👏
@@djembesoli1 I agree with what you are saying about society's overfocus on individualism, somewhat paradoxical as one might expect society as a whole to focus on the collective aspects of life. I think Dr Grande's use of the question "Are you important?" was meant to be illustrative, I assume there's more evidence of an overall rise in narcissism than the responses to just the one question. The increase from 12% to 80% positive responses is so striking that I think there has to be a shift in the way it's being interpreted from objectively to subjectively - although I suppose that in itself might be regarded as a sign of a societal increase in narcissism.
D'accord!
I appreciate your practical suggestions they are very helpful to me. Thank you.
There is a lot of valuable insight on offer here. Much appreciated.
I think therapy gives the narcissist the answer book to socially acceptable ways to mirror empathy. I think that partners and counselors often give them the answer of what they need to say and what they should do. My ex's relationships greatly improved with me in his life because I was following behind him and saying you are not understanding you should (fill in the blank). It did not make him a better person, but rather more of a sympathetic person as he was 'trying'. Counseling did allow him a new channel for extracting what he wanted from others. He also became an expert at what he said to his counselor to get the support for his bad behaviors. I don't believe she knew he was a narcissist, but he sure would spin whatever to get the support for being an awful person and he took it a ran. So not only was he justified but actually had a professional telling him he was right. I seriously doubt she knew what he did to me and others, but I do think she was loading a gun and helping him aim at me (his main target).
To add to my comment. I’m referring to the parental boundary piece of your explanation Dr Grande. Since I was born in 62, I can look back at the differences in the way in general kids were parented. Thru the 70s the pretty much universal message was work hard, no one is going to hand you anything! No one got a trophy but say 3 kids. 1st place to 3rd place. Then from around the mid 80s it became every kid gets something as not to have winners or losers. I would think that atmosphere would only lay the groundwork for narcissists to flourish and expect the recognition?! Maybe it made no difference but there was this shift. Talk shows used this topic as well so I know the shift was “a thingZ” if you will! Thanks as always!
Good emphasis on actively engaging narcissists and encouraging them to seek counselling ..😄😄😄😄
Great topic!
I agreed to what you said, Dr. Grande!
Some counselors are really talented in pointing out someone is feeling or thinking they are entitled without hurting the ego.
I find that a very settle way to gain self awareness and insight without invoking defense mechanisms.
Other times a counselor can be too challenging, too eager for change
and results.
I’m not sure if that’s useful.
I’ve come across narcissists that changed radically throughout their lives after undergoing crisis and difficulties.
It shapes personality!
Indeed. Adversity shows us who we are, but it also makes us who we are -- all the more so when we are young. Our avoidance of risk (via the feminizing of the culture here in the U.S. in the last 50 years) has given us a couple of generations of "helicopter parents" -- protecting kids from risk makes them weak, not strong, and fantasy-based, not reality-based.
TUCK - Hidden Values
Helicopter parenting is definitely an issue.
Everywhere I guess. But those kids have still the ability to emphasize, through fragile under pressure.
The most harm is done when one parent is extra harsh, overly critical, with expectations too high, which leads the child to dismiss all criticism as a way to protect himself. While the other parent overcompensates by over valuing and over praising.
This is where the super ego is born.
Parents need to learn a not so soft, nor too harsh way to approach.
A middle way, balanced.
Dr. Rosenberg has great videos on discussing the origin of narcissism.
Did they really change or did they simply present that narrative to you? How do you know? Playing that role is part and parcel to the narcs MO. M
Todd
Yes, might be.
I don’t know them on the inside that well.
But it was uplifting to see that grandiose arrogant type gain or learn some kindness.
Even if it’s fake at the start.
It might become a default mode if they keep it up.
@@لمىالشريف-غ8ك I think this is true. Right now, we suffer as a society from specific families with the inconsistency of parenting you describe, as well as a more general societal trend of risk- avoidance. The combination means we have more narcissism at various levels of severity, with different prospects for change. Praying that change happens, on both personal and societal levels!
Interesting topic, I have thought about that as well. Well done.
Thank you for discussing this important topic. It would be good if individuals with NPD or high narcissism sought therapy in order to address the narcissism but most of these types of individuals seem to seek out a therapist solely to be listened to and sympathised with as "victims" of others and they'll actively seek out therapists who'll do this.
Excellent. It's always good to learn about different personality disorders to educate ourselves on said subject.
Thanks so much for the video Dr Grande....This subject really needed to be explored honestly and factually and I believe you did that.
Another gem for the collection, thanx 4 your work =)
Is it possible to make a video about how your youtube videos has benefited you?
This must be a very different experience than what you get from regular counseling.
Example: Can you use experiences from feedback here in regular counseling, or when talking with other people in your profession?
I hope this journey is as benefiting for you as it must be for many of your viewers.
Good luck in the future, and have a great weekend. =)
Thanks for the new time posts, Dr Grande. I have definitely learned such a lot from your videos on narcissism. One always has two choices in life: you can choose to learn from your adversity or you choose to become bitter, and believe life owes you. Speaking of myself, I have been a Christian for many years, but I could not understand that GOD loved me. I could say to you, GOD loves you. Only in the last ten years, have I understood that yes, GOD loves me. This has really made such a difference in my life. I think this is the main problem for the narcissist; the emptiness. Granted they have a lot of other problems that can't just be fixed, and need good counselors. I am really grateful for this channel, thanks again.
Yes -- huge difference between the harm of (false) self-esteem and the healing power of truthfully recognizing that each of us is "fearfully and wonderfully made"!
@@tuck-brainwks-eutent-hidva1098 Yes, exactly. The harm of the false self; Living in an illusion. Well said.
Your videos are extremely helpful.
I agree
This concept of: ego dystonic vs. ego systonic & how it works was well illustrated! Fascinating analysis & explanation.
Ask if you might consider a comment of pathology associated with "birth order," also: orphans. Believe there might be an oldest child: " curse." Can you elucidate on these topics sometime? Much gratitude!
That's where the Jungian approach of dream analysis is helpful for narcissists. Dreams show the dark shadow side of people's personality, so they are inherently critical of many of the narcissist's ego positions. Leading narcissists to accept these destructive dream figures as aspects of themselves brings increasing self-awareness and change. Therapy sessions are not non-judgmental since the dream contents are quite judgmental.
One problem, however, is that as soon as some narcissists start realizing that negative dream figures are revealing negative aspects of the dreamer's personality, they alter the dream narrative or report only parts of dreams which don't seem to criticize them.
Living in self denial makes it practically impossible🙁.
I thought Jung's work was archaic and discredited, as it is not based on the scientific method?
@@hamc9477 It hasn't been discredited. It's based on observation. It's hard to generate testable hypotheses from it. That goes for all psychodynamic approaches. There is empirical evidence that it is effective. Google Evidence for the Effectiveness of Jungian Psychotherapy: A Review of Empirical Studies.
Neuroscience is now validating central ideas of psychoanalytic and analytic psychology which were denied or ignored by the cognitive and behavioral ego-strengthening approaches. Mainly the idea that most of our emotions and thinking go on outside of conscious awareness and beyond conscious control. And the importance of the dream for emotional regulation, learning, and problem solving. Dreams give insights into emotional patterns that are not entirely conscious.
Thanks for the short discussion on self-esteem in kids. I need to ponder this in regard to my 6 year old.
Very interesting. Would you please talk about a communal narcissist. There is a big difference between autism and narcissism...could you please talk about that, too?
As usual so well explained! Thank you Dr Grande ! 🙂
Dr. Grande, first, this is an absolutely fascinating topic. ❤ And you uploaded it so European-timezone-friendly. A ton of love for this is just being sent to Delaware. I'll write a second comment with my opinion on the topic itself.
Yes Esther, I'm also much happier about the time he's uploading his vids. I also read your other question to the Americans. You're right about this issue and the German gründlichkeit. Let's hope some will right a comment. Gute Nacht 😃
@@pocoeagle2 Thank you, Ben for your kind comment! Germany must currently be a strange neighbour to have. .. I sometimes read newspapers from Austria and Switzerland and what they write about Germany is... shockingly true. But from the Netherlands you're the only person I hear from. Instaed I eat their sweets and drink their tea... kostelijk ! ❤
You guys make me currious about this German Gründlichkeit topic. What did you say about that, Esther?
@@djembesoli1 Oh, I'm sorry, YT hasn't given me a notification for your question... thank you for your interest on this. To German Gründlichkeit I have to say, that my opinion is based on subjective experience only, I don't know any - probably existing- research on this. The thoroughness imo still exists, but it has gotten, together with other similar virtues, like punctuality, conscientiousness, scrupulousness and sense of responsibility, devalued in public opinion. Bold, risk-taking and casual behaviours are seen as superior to these cluster C-like traits and people will tell you this in a more or less polite way. This shift imo has taken place somewhere in the beginning of this century. So, practically, showing thoroughness in Germany will put you at risk to be laughed at and to cause feelings and behaviours of being superior in your social environment. Hope this was helpful to you, have a great day. ⭐
@@mrs.reluctant4095 Ok, thanks. I would agree concering the shift of values, but not about the time frame. I think those typically German values started to decline slowly prolly with the installation of democracy after WW2, but noticable in 1968 and the aftermath of the student movement. The traditional values were desribed as being also "good for running a concentration camp", which - sadly - is true. And isn't the shift towards "bold, risk-taking and casual behaviours" not exactly an adaptation of American values, the values of the democratic victors or liberators? In Europe, the Germans are seen as little Americans. Ironically, now that we learned our lessons so well, big brother is changing and doesn't believe in democracy and multilaterism that much any more. The Musterschüler (model pupil) doesn't understand what he did wrong...
As to the changes in the start of this millenium, I think it's just the decline of welfare state and corporate responsibility that kicked in with a bit of a time lag in the aftermath of the fall of the Berlin wall. Without socialism as the foe, our special economic status wasn't given any reason nor room for - we stoped being the shop-window of the benefits of capitalism to the East. The Anglo-American economic style has gotten globalized and thus standardized. That has taken it's toll in the ways we interact socially a lot IMO. People get squashed by their jobs and are too exhausted for much of the social interaction they did before. Instead they tend to retreat at home and to the internet.
It seems that narcissism has increased greatly. Actually, I am beginning to wonder if everyone I try to have a relationship with is in essence a narcissist.
Val Identity I’ve had this issue too. While learning about narcissism I found that I was feeling like I was one as well sometimes but we all fall onto the spectrum of narcissism somewhere... it’s healthy to have some degree of it, but some people are overboard. I really just think it’s a spiritual matter of the heart and conscience.
Val Identity
Social media.
That could be true in the sense that you attract/are attracted to those people. You really need to evaluate your own behaviors and what attracts you to the people who turn out to be narcissistic. I'm guilty of doing this myself. When I made the correlation, they stopped being attractive and attracted to me.
@@MrJimmyTide but then, after starting dodging them, has it become easier to attract healthier partners? Have u been successful finding healthier partners?
Val Identity not surprized
Fascinating and valuable, as always, Dr. G.! I would add one thing to your comment about debunking the myth that narcissism leads to success....
I think it's true that our structures do lead to worldly success in the financial and leadership spheres (such as they are), and I agree that the answer here probably lies in structural change across the society. I suspect that, as with so many other things (like the teaching of empathy, for example), the road out of our current mess will be long and fraught with difficulty, as structural change will emerge only from social change.
Recognizing -- and prioritizing -- success in its (many) other forms will be an important prerequisite to that! I suspect that in earlier generations, the more balanced recognition of and value on different success factors played a role in keeping our natural human narcissism at bay! 🙄
There is a narcissism awareness epidemic.
There are so many rude vampires walking the earth.
Thank God there is a narcissism awareness epidemic. Finally. It took millennia to come.
This is true. Biggest scourge of the internet: narcissistic trolls. Second-biggest scourge of the internet: People screaming about their "ex-narcs".... 😉
I wish you could have a video on Sam Vaknin or maybe with the man himself on Narcissism. He shares similar thoughts, although in certain aspects you could say he's more left field about the topic, even though he's one of the pioneers that took this construct to the next level of understanding.
Profound video, thank you! It's nice how you make points so variably and don't just argue for/defend some group of people. I agree that there are some problems with the vulnerable state of an otherwise grandiose narcissist, and how that is seen in counselling or other similar settings. It's no way an easy thing to spot, especially if you have no experience on the subject, so I understand counsellors who don't get it. There still should be somewhat better education about it.
If narcissism is on the rise, then this is an indicator that personality is a construct of environmental conditions and not a genetic predisposition.
When covering this topic in my classes I always liked to ask my students if we can teach empathy and then get their suggestions on how this could be done. I definitely see is rise in narcissism and entitlement. Very interesting video. Excellent!! Thank you.
great video as always, Dr. Grande!
can you do a video analyzing a Luka Magnotta, internet killer featured in the Netflix documentary: “Don’t F*** With Cats?” would love to hear your input on the topic.
Thanks and Happy New Years!
i watched a short documentary on him, it was fucking disturbing
@@havest2 hi - where can i find the documentary? what was so disturbing to you?
I'm not convinced that there is an "narcissism epidemic," but I do agree that people's social behavior has become less kind over the years. Societal pressures bear down on individuals and all of us collectively, and a lot of us have zero or very poor coping skills to deal with that pressure. We're all dealing with a "Future Shock" culture and doing our best to acclimate to and navigate it with varying degrees of success. Blaming others and not taking personal responsibility for our part(s) in this unkind world will get us nowhere. That being said, I do believe that Narcissistic Personality Disorder is a real thing and that some people do suffer from it. They are ones who would benefit from appropriate therapy, but would probably seldom seek it. Once again, a VERY thought-provoking video, Dr. Grande. Thank you!
Also, this narcissism stuff is perpetuated generation after generation, for which this verse makes it clear... the person I just dealt with has a history of this on one side of the family, the vulnerable narcissist Apple not falling far from the tree, wealthy family, seemingly shy but so twisted... scary..
1 Peter 5:5-6
5 Likewise, you who are younger, be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”
6 Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you,
Yesssssss! (Undiagnosed, or those in denial) Narcs/Borderlines don't heal, they just become better narcs/borderlines.
BTW great point about therapists (esp ones not trained to treat personality disorders) simply validating the narcs/borderlines' feelings. My BPD/covert NPD ex did go to therapy, but (1) she was savvy enough to hide her personality disorder from her (poorly trained) therapist, and (2) she just used the therapist to make her feel good about herself.
What do think is the solution? my life is trapped in a narcissistic narrative, to many people playing along
Ryan fatguyinlilcoat stop blaming others get out in your world and do things for others as this is a way for you to treat your self. Radical empathy when someone asks say cause I care, and leave it at that
peter madden radical empathy well if it works
Spot on, Dr Grande, spot on! Thank you as usual.🙌🍀🌟😎
The question "I am an important person." Can be taken in more than one way. It could mean "I am important because I am better than everyone else" or "I am important to myself because I am the only person I have direct responsibility for". Unless, of course if test is asking this question in some sort of context.
that was true in the 50s too though. if anything you think kids then were more into personal responsibility since that's a bad term now...
I thought too that maybe many of the younger generation interpreted that question in a way that they have an important value as human being - just like everyone else has too. That doesn't mean that they would consider themselves as more important than others.
My struggle with taking the MMPI as a class exercise in freshman psych was exactly this -- the lack of context for dozens of subtle questions like this. I was hung up for days (literally -- had a consultation with my prof and everything!) on "It is more important to be just than merciful." 😅 Wherever you are, Dr. Miller -- sorry.... 😉
Maybe that question would be better formed as: "I am a significant person". I think that it might be translated like that in my language (at least more suitable translation to the word significant is used more often than the translation for the word important.) "I am an important person" can be interpreted as "I matter" or "I have value", and if you state that you are not important, how does that sound nowadays? Maybe the meaning of the word has changed a bit along the change in the overall culture (from "everyone should just do their job and not think too high of themselves" to "everyone has value").
I was married to a covert vulnerable narcissist. Therapy was never going to help and made things worse. After years of emotional and some physical abuse, infidelity and gaslighting I was a wreck. He wore his "mask" and charmed the therapist. Statistically female therapists are more biased against the wives. 😠
Thank you dr Grande, excellent video, very helpful. My husband went a few times to the therapist (she advertises herself as a psychologist and a life coach, personality disorders are not listed in her specialties.). The result would have been funny if it were not sad and more difficult for me. She confirmed there is absolutely nothing wrong with my husband, that I do behave as often woman do having different moods (angry or upset) and he should simply ignore me and do whatever he needs to do and if at all, deal with consequences later. The issue is about the triangulation, he has a lover and after the "therapy" he formally declared he is entitled to have one.
Might there not be a difference in interpretation of the statement “I am an important person” from one generation to the next? For instance, one generation might mostly read it as “I am more important than others” and another generation might read it as “I am as important as others.” I don’t think that would mean anything necessarily about the increase in narcissism, but I do wonder about the validity of using that as a true/false question to measure narcissistic self-importance.
Yea I noticed that he has a very interesting take on narcissism in general.
Those are the same statement. Every value judgement is made in comparison to others. On a societal level, not every person is equally important. That's why the president has secret service, while unemployed people often go without simple shelter
It may be a reflection that people focus more on the abstract (existentialist) sense of self-importance rather than the concrete (sociocultural) sense of self-importance. This may be all well and good, but when this mindset affects how you interact with others (demanding unearned benefits at work, expecting worship in relationships, limiting ability to form genuinely selfless connections, etc.), it rises to the level of pathology
Hello Dr. Grande,
I love your videos. Is there narcissism connected to SJW's, or cancel culture. That would be a good video on that.
Great topic. 😃. Great video. So is it true that therapy will make a psychopath worse ? If so why ?
My ex spouse verbally attacked the counselor. Tried to belittle them and accused me wanting couples counseling as a prelude to the separation. He also assumed that I was the one, not US, needing growth and understanding...he is now on his third relationship after me. When we met he had been married and divorced twice...I tried.
I am sceptical that narcissism is more widespread today than it has been in the past. I suggest people read Dickens. In Charles Dickens' novels we see wonderful portrayals of every kind of narcissism imaginable. The public in Dickens' time loved those books because they related to what they were reading. They'd seen that narcissism in people in their own lives.
in the 19th century there was a lot of narcissism just like now
But many of Dickens characters were just pompous, is that not true. Dickens himself however was quite a fraud when it came to geniality. He was despicable in his treatment of his wife and his taking up (euphemism) with a young mistress. But I digress.
Yes.. l begin to believe epidemic narcisism is real.. and again l am really thankful for find someone that see and say the truth
A narcissist with low empathy can learn to act pro-social when it's in their own self interest but can you teach them to genuinely care about other people?
Behavior does change the brain, gradually. So it is quite possible that the narcissist's brain grows new compassion/empathy connections.
I would not even bet a dollar on it.
The growing of new pathways is possible, but it becomes much more difficult with age/time in the established pattern.
Can you speak more to the notion that over controlling parents cause narcissism?
Over controlling, such as the "helicopter parenting" of the early 1990s has been repeatedly shown to be an emotional damaging cue that causes the need to develop narcissistic personality traits, and often even psychopathic personality traits.
first result from an edu domain on this:
www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=aquila.usm.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi%3Farticle%3D2518%26context%3Ddissertations&ved=2ahUKEwjCt9P-8ZznAhVHG80KHYChAcYQFjABegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw3C_YGNWGBmq0885O1vpexn
It can. Not everything in life is concrete or work the same way for everyone 100% of the time.
Sam Vaknin believes it's the cultural construction in the "West" that rewards narcissism, not necessarily the personality disorder. I agree with this but somethings he says are dubious. I wonder what you'd think about his work.
Sam is correct. Do not dismiss his insight because he has a conviction.
@@paulinebrown6807 You say that as if you know it for a fact, and It's not just a theory lol.
Vaknin is narcissist himself and he admits this. He has a forked tongue himself.
@@paulinebrown6807 She wasn’t dismissing Sam but yet shared her experience which is fair. You should respected other people’s opinions even if they don’t mesh with yours. Lastly, it has also been my experience, that while Sam V., in amazing I’m his work, he absolutely has blind spots because he himself is a narcissist...this is a fact.
Excellent topic question to tackle, Dr G. Agree with your conclusive points at the end, except the idea that getting NPDs into treatment is a good idea - in my experience, it doesn't make positive changes but rather fuels their disorder further; they selectively hear / take what they want to hear (fully discarding the challenges), further lie/distort the truth, and manipulate the therapist into believing their lies.
I really don't know how to persuade them to go counselling, I think that's the biggest challenge.
Excellent video, Dr Grande, really opened my eyes to this issue. Would you elaborate on the 4 points at the end, especially regarding parenting practices that inadvertently lead to increasing narcissist traits in children? As a new mom, I really am interested in your expert opinion as well as what the research says. I would not want to raise my son in a way that would harm him in the long term, especially following today’s parenting culture that seems much too indulgent and “child-led”. Thank you sir.
Regarding the "I am important" true/untrue question:
Have you ever seen "the Help"? Since around the 60's mothers have told their children increasingly to see themselves as important and valuable. This is typically meant as value as an individual and not meaning "valuable in comparison to others". I dont think that question can indicate narcissism in younger generations as they've been conditioned to the word "important" regarding self.
Id say hell yes therapy can make it worse. IF the therapist doesnt see through their bs.. Ive known a couple of people who would always describe them selves as victims. People rejecting them, screwing them over, they felt. One went to therapy and was told to hold to her own truth etc.. In reality she was extremely dominant, controlling and belittling to everyone close to her, but she didnt say that in therapy... There she was the one trying to do everything for people and no one appreciated it.. She came out like, hey Im great and you all need to treat me better... She most deff needed to have had some family come with her to treatment, so they could call her out on all the lies she told both herself and the therapist..
Rename NPD as ADD-Adult Deception Disorder and awareness would increase.
Wonderfully concise
Narcissists have caused so much pain in my life. They're good at what they do.
This is quite an interesting video, though not unlike your others. It really causes one to think about any narcissists they know, as well as the narcissistic traits they have themselves. I say this because I assume I have narcissistic ticks that I have to keep watch over and I remember seeing a test for narcissism online that I thought was rather stupid. For me, it was clear that anyone who understood anything at all about narcissism, including narcissists, would likely know the appropriate answers to the questions on behavior. That the problem comes in, when you understand what’s appropriate - but have so much more fun not actually being appropriate, which is not me, but I’ve seen it in the duping delight and schadenfreude of my mother. So, anyone could’ve ticked off the right answers, but it didn’t mean they weren’t a narcissist. This video parses out that type of thing.
It depends on how you look at it - I do believe those with NPD, who tend to manipulate and "use" anyway, what happens in therapy is they learn the particular therapy style they are in and learn how to slide through. I've seen it first hand. They use it while they are in it, then after therapy stops they no longer use the tools and if it was marriage therapy they turn on the spouse and project how the spouse is the one "doing it wrong."
I think in this sense, it wouldn't use the word "worse" - I think it's more appropriate to say it enables them to keep doing what they are doing. It doesn't get worse, it simply makes them want to look at themselves less, which is what they are not wanting to do anyway (or unable to do). It's just another self-object that they use in their path of using people as object, throughout the lifetime.
It makes you wonder, with the work of Otto Kernberg or even Bessel van der Kolk - how personality disordered people ever came to their office for treatment to begin with. But many narcissists slide in and out of therapy office none the worse for wear and only marginally more self-aware afterwards.
The idea is that the attachment they have to friends or spouses is what might heal them and their childhood attachment deficits or get them to look in the mirror. The conundrum is that those who are healthy are tired of dealing with them and those who are unhealthy are just enablers. The only time they even have a notion to take a glimpse is when one of the enablers or codependents decides to step outside of that role and get boundaries.
But even that takes a LONG road before even just slight shifts will occur. It's an arduous and exhausting task for those in close relationship to a narcissist.
That is the best non-clinical summary of this experience I have ever read. Permission to share in a training setting? With or without a name? Thank you.... -- Tracy Tucker Cooksey
@@tuck-brainwks-eutent-hidva1098 sure. I'm a graduate student in counseling so it's a bit clinical. 😁 I've just experienced it firsthand so that's how I know. The human development and psychology classes are what helped give names to experiences I've had. 👍
My malignant narc ex-husband has been going to counseling with the same social worker since he was 4 years old (he's now 38). His entire family goes to to this man (unethical). This social worker told me in my own session (I didn't know understand it was a HIPPA violation) that he "couldn't challenge him" on certain issues. This counselor told us both (in a couple's session again, not ethical) that my ex's behavior was going to get worse after we moved away for his first big corporation ladder jump, but that it was "going to go back to normal" after that role was over and we moved back. He was anticipating a heightened state in the devaluation phase (not understanding the reality of that phase) and telling us both about it, watching me walk off into what turned into severe and life-altering abuse. And the presentation of him anticipating my husband's inexcusable behavior game him carte blanche to do so. It became another one of his "rights". The point to this comment is that I watched my ex become more and more skilled at his factor 2 behavioral traits and use them to relentlessly move high up in corporate America via the insights of this enabling, plotting and triangulating social worker. I think the main problem with the mental health industry (from a US perspective) is that unrecovered reactive codependents and high spectrum narcs are allowed to use their licenses to work out their childhoods at the expense of other people's souls/lives; people that are asking for help.
In my youth it was ADD! Then, it was ADHD! Then, it was Asperger's! Then, it was Sociopathy! And now it's Narcissism! It's the popular diagnosis of the day. Though its popularity as an amateur diagnosis by the layman does not account for the measurable, clinical increase in narcissism. Pretty sure the appeal of therapy is a consequence of the increase.
True. You've forgot the borderline epidemic, extremely popular diagnosis in the nineties. And earlier in the 60ies and 70ies everyone who was different was actually considered schizophrenic. Nowadays you're either a narcissist, bipolar or both.
Here’s a thought.
Dr Grande,
I wonder if ADHD/ADD can be mistaken for narcissism. These two do seem to share at least a few similarities in the behavior of the sufferers. Please do a video on that.
Thanks! 🙏🏾
I think it's entirely possible. Both ADHD and narcissistic abuse are rampant on my father's side of the family, and I'm starting to think that a lot of my relatives adopted narcissistic behaviors as a coping mechanism, a desire to manipulate and control others because they feel like they have no control over themselves.
For my father and aunt at least, counseling has been helpful. But then, they don't have full-blown NPD.
Boom 🎯
Rene P Absolutely! My ex seems to tick every CN box, and a few years ago she was insisting she had ADD (but in the end refused to seek treatment). A video on this would definitely be appreciated Dr G.
Narcissistic Abuse Rehab
Mmmmmm. 🥰
As always, it’s good to see you.
As for me, just still coping with this on/off, hot/cold, push/pull “relationship” of mine. She hasn’t ghosted completely, but things are definitely chillier now than just 3 weeks ago. I’m starting to suspect she is some form of ADHD instead of narcissistic. Maybe next time her and I get together, I’ll just ask her what medicines she takes. 😅
Speaking from personal experience yes. Until I got my diagnosis, my wife tried to convince me that I was a narcissist. My wife was convinced everybody was a narcissist including her parents and my father… And she was right about those three. And then I got diagnosed for ADHD started proper treatment, and she started to become abusive, she started to become narcissistic or more pointedly, the mask fell off. But here's the thing. I've always cared aboutOther people and their feelings. As a matter of fact, for many years I was the guy folks would come to when they needed some empathy. But I was a codependent. A lot of moving parts it can be incredibly complex, and it can make you feel crazy. But, I've done a lot of reading, and I'm no doctor, it would seem that currently, there's no known comorbidity between ADHD and NPD
How would we change that corporate structure which currently rewards narcissism? What would that new structure look like?
Becoming religious made my mental health much better.
Could you maybe make a video in relation to this?
Or is there no corellation?
There's an individual out there explaining how NPD works, and says he was counseled to do so by his therapist. He claims to be an overt narcissist (which he calls a greater narc), and he also freely says that he is forcing other narcissists to step up their game.
If others know who I am talking about (I won't give a name here)-- perhaps this could be considered another example of counseling leading a narc to worsen their behavior. I also recall him being interviewed by two people and one of the interviewers exhibits some control issues, and also seemed to get worse after that interview.
But the "worse" as I understand it, is the narc in therapy learns the speak, and is then better able to charm and fake empathy to their victims. So u are increasing their skills at raking normalcy.
Very informative.
Some of the most narcissistic people I've ever encountered r on Narcissistic Victim pages. Some of them r the folk who actually run those pages, pages where there's a trope that if u are looking at narcissist pages, it means that u r not a narcissist. Ha ha ha! Well narcissists would sat that, right? Scratch their surface, and u come across the most self absorbed, privileged, pompous, overbearing people, on the internet. Victimhood bestows so much privilege. Narcissism is like child abuse, victims become abusers, narc victims b come narcs.
Dr, can you consider doing a video on C-PTSD? It's a relatively new diagnosis, but one more and more people seem to be affected by, particularly those of us in the millennial generation coming into our 30s, which almost seems like the minimum age for a lot of people being diagnosed.
I believe he has one already, if my memory doesn't fail🙂
Psychotherapy validated, inflated and empowered my ex NPD's appalling and damaging behaviour, enabling even-more destructive behaviour towards others. Therapy was an abject failure, waste of time and money, and, if anything, gave him a badge of honour with which to increase his levels of harm. Research needs to understand on a qualitative level the lack of effective treatment by poorly trained therapists. Even those who do challenge NPDs can spectacularly fail to achieve any meaningful positive change in the client.
Your hair looks nice here Dr.
1. Focusing on NPD statistics undereports the extent to which narcissism is a problem as vulnerable narcissism as well as high narscissm can be a problem even if it doesnt rise to the level of NPD. Moreover even NPD may be underdiagnosed. That said, better data may be hard to come by.
2. It would be interesting to do more videos on the origins of narcissism and narisccism and parenting (what type of parenting leads to narcissism - bot grandiose and vulnerable). Also more videos on the affects of narcissism (both types) on coparenting would be interesting.
He has a video on #2, but I don't remember which one. He talks about which parenting styles by mom and dad might lead to narcissism, there are four types in general and 2 each that have a connection to it. I wish I could remember which video it was, but I've been watching a ton of his videos lately so it's difficult!
Just assume that 1 out of every 4 people you meet are rude and lack empathy.
You may be aware of the Antonio Brown saga, an NFL player, who has created non-stop drama, with a capital D, recently. I am glad to see that when he was arrested the other day the judge set bail, which Mr. Brown was able to make and which included a number of conditions, chief among them that he get a mental health evaluation. I would venture that's the first time he was ever told he had to do that. Maybe it will lead to counseling and he can change his behavior. Much better than isolation. I am keeping my fingers crossed for him. Thanks for a thought provoking video Dr. G.
What I've seen is ppl with npd go to therapy with an agenda and a "need to know" type of sharing.....they continue with lies of omission per usual and inflate any character defects of everyone in their life. They look for pity and attention, are horrific historians, and tell and retell the same stories and embellish them and give alternate endings as needed depending on the person, place or time. It's fairly useless( treatment) to improve interpersonal relationships, might help a suicidal npd get on meds, talk therapy, but basically their honestly is elusive, selective , basically nonexistent. No long term person in their life will continue to respond to this shallow, dishonest bs of a relationship. Friends come and go as they catch on.....counselors too.....sad state of affairs for all.
I used to wonder about this. If my mother went to a therapist and said ''my daughter is acting like I hurt her! how dare she! That is impossible. After all I did for her, she tries to hurt me by claiming that I hurt her!'' would the therapist have *validated* that martyred indignance?
yes.
I am fascinated by what it is like...how people experience the process of seeking treatment...how it is different for those with a certain dx versus others?...particularly diagnoses resistant to treatment such as NPD...
Do you think that Mr. Rogers’ comments to children can promote narcissism or are those type of comments healthy in promoting self esteem? Telling children they’re unique comes to mind.
For one of the studies you mentioned, I would argue those may not be useful measures to represent narcissism. I would have to read the article, and I’m sure they mentioned limitations, but job expectation and charity donations are particularly problematic in my opinion. For example, there is an increase in the number of people getting college degrees, yet there is a significant problem with underemployment in the United States. I would argue that someone graduating from college is reasonable in expecting a higher paying job than was the average decades ago. However, given societal circumstances it may be unrealistic. This disparity doesn’t make them narcissistic. Similarly, we have seen a minimum wage that does not keep up with inflation. It is arguable that young adults today suffer financially in ways that past generations may not have experienced (for example, housing costs etc.). They may not be donating to charity at the same rates because they don’t have the means, not because they are narcissistic. Again, I’m sure the article didn’t imply that these were valid measures of narcissism, but in my opinion they are worse than invalid. They’re practically useless. This is probably harsh without my reading the article, just wanted to type it out while it was on my mind.