No big issue if you lose an eye. You have another one to use while searching for the spring. (In all seriousness, this is a timely reminder to go and purchase some kind of Random Spring Assortment Kit from one of our favourite Fine Chinesium Vendors, to head that kind of frustration off at the pass.)
Back in the day, it would have been labelled "Open At Own Risk", loosely translated as "If you break it, or yourself, tough shit mate". Now the marvelous March of Safety Culture has brought us the message of "NEVER TOUCH THE NAUGHTY BITS OR YOU WILL BE A VERY BAD BOY/GIRL AND MADE TO SIT IN THE CORNER". It's nice to see that there's still plenty of young folk out there (including many with a presence here on RUclips) who are willing to risk a spanking in the pursuit of knowledge and understanding. 🙂
Luis de Rivas That’s more "if our shoddy workmanship breaks it and you try to fix it, we’ll weasel our way out of supporting it." Any company which actually means "you break it, you fix it" will say as much
I misheard "big powerful spring" as "big purple spring". Consequently I spent the next 11 minutes on tenterhooks waiting for a peuce-coloured spring - but I was sorely disappointed :(
Whenever I see a "DO NOT OPEN" warning, I always assume it's because of a capacitor, never thought it could be due to a spring. Either way, it's amazing how simple yet complex this actuator is.
@@Jacob_graber i see what you did there… i just imagined someone opening the wrong door at a dam and then everyone’s TVs in a 5 mile radius blowing up, 😂
@@sn0wt1ger anything that stores and releases energy can be many many many things. from a lithium battery, or capacitor to a spring. orrrr a bag full of water on a tree branch is a form of mechanical energy storage.
Unless it gets caught in a fire wax motors almost never wear out too. One less thing in life to worry about. Except that fire part. A fire in the greenhouse is never fun.
@@619guy202 it can rain during a forest fire and not put it out. Its a glass box that makes heat. Shit happens and green houses often end up as storage for other things than just plants.
That same type of device is what GM used on many 4X4 trucks for years. It was used to move the front axle interlock to put them into 4Wheel drive. It was about 2 years after they were introduced that the first replacements using a conventional motor came out on the market. The OEM units would activate so slow in a cold environment that you were never sure if the front axle was locked. They were replaced with a vacuum unit on the smaller trucks and a motor on the larger ones.
I first learned about these wax "motors" from cars. Specifically the thermostat that regulates coolant flow so your engine stays about the same temperature at operating and warms up properly. If it ever goes wrong you can have issues where your car either over cools from being stuck open or overheats from being stuck closed. It also has a pretty powerful spring in it as I found when playing with one someone had lying around. I had great difficulty even moving the valve a milimeter.
Some self-regulating steam control valves use a bulb, capillary and bellows (piston) to operate the steam valve without any electricity. Just uses expansion of xylene vapor in the bulb to expand the bellows to close the steam valve at the set temperature. This wax motor puts the PTC heating element directly on the bellows / piston. Interesting device to see dismantled, Clive!!
My dad was a 18 wheeler mechanic. He was working on the rear brakes when it’s spring shot out and gave him a huge knot on his noggin. Springs under load can be very unpredictable and dangerous.
I remember watching a youtube video a while ago where they directly stated that they essentially treated the warning label as a "how to" manual for explosions (this was for LiPo batteries, I think).
These are used in extractor fans with the silent automatic shutters - the shutter is held closed with a spring, when the fan is turned on, the wax is heated and slowly pushes the shutter open against the spring, why the reason the fan sounds blocked up when first turned on and after 1 minute, would sound like it’s clearing itself.
Been a BMS engineer for 20 years and never seen the inside of one of these. I fully understood the principle but seeing it is so much easier. I'll be using this when training!
"NASA scientists have calculated that the glittering purple object sighted on numerous space-watching telescopes around the world must have been launched from a yet to be uncovered base somewhere in northern Europe."
after some calculations, it was from a small garage in a seemingly normal subdivision. Occupant claimed the hole in the roof was from a large piece of hail 10 years ago.
So glad you dismantled this. When I worked in warm floors, we used Uponor's version. The boss always talked about "the wax motor" but none of us had a clue how it worked. Makes complete sense now.
7:57 automobile thermostats use a similar wax motor assembly the underside is just heated by engine coolant instead of a PTC. They calibrate them during manufacture by heating them up to the desired opening temperature and crimp the base (reducing the space for the wax to expand) until the ram fully extends.
Thanks for opening it up I’ve always wanted to know what the wax motor inside looks like! I use these in a manifold to control room radiators. I’ve always wondered why can’t they be small circuits to control a stepper so it is fast and doesn’t need to draw power once in position. But your point about slow speed makes sense. If it was a fast shut off valve then it would create water hammer. This is simple and effective and seems to be reliable so far in my installation.
Neato! A variant of your 'wax motor' is the actuator in a car's 'thermostat'. Many of these are simple butterfly valves put in the main coolant/antifreeze flow path. They have a similar was motor that pushes against a spring, opening the butterfly valve. One common amateur mechanic's mistake is installing them backwards, so the temperature sensitive wax cylinder doesn't get heated up while the engine overheats. Nice video. :)
I remember reading in the Chinese-English instructions for an electrical device the warning "Not to used for the other use". Of course, that immediately got the imagination running as to what "the other use" would be. Shame I can't remember what the device was now - it may come back to me.
Also he renew your essay especially an old older places over buildings although it's been modernized with additional stuff of course and automation but still would be backwards compatible with the right devices excetera and there's some newer installations of course I'm sure but mostly additions to Old systems back in the day I do remember when they had the steam heating systems it was not just a steam valves but also damper actuators and some other things that were operating pneumatically and this was a clever system in that Soul automation was actually possible through only one pneumatic line for example the thermostats could actually be equipped didn't know if all the more but they could be used to do setbacks for temperature by just changing the incoming air line pressure which would affect a setback on the set temperature Marvel schools and other buildings and churches had these systems but when the issues was if there was a big enough leak a pipe breaks or the comfort you which is often used between the valve actuator for the radiator and the wall although sometimes this was replaced with a plastic pipe you know tubing if it's going to be enough leak or broke all together whatever radiators were on that thermostat yep on Intel could be repaired or somehow isolate the steam from that radiator and there wasn't always local valves in that room for this here and there yes I remember in school bathrooms there was isolation valves at each radiator however in the classrooms no there were times in the winter time during the heating season we would have to use a different classroom for the same class because there be no way that you could be in there it was so hot and yes some of the windows were not configured to open yeah that's a thing upstairs especially. But I do remember one time was he instructor's someone was messing with one of those copper lines on the valve actuator and yeah those are those green things you see on all the radiators here and yes I'm in the United States again if I didn't mention it. And he said something to the effect you know if you're doing that and you break that copper line does radiators come on full blast all them in this room. You know he wasn't scolding right thing you just you just put the info doorway there was enough just let me know. Maybe I shouldn't do that this was just some random student because I knew better and if I saw somebody doing that I would like to know the consequences and that there was something about I asked once I think the principal and dad found out that some people have been doing it deliberately sabotage the keep class from happening especially before tests and other things like that it depends on circumstances but people had been suspended for doing that if it was under Mouse you could say. I was curious if it had ever been done of course they knew that I was aware of things like that because of well I am one of those people that had access to the school shop of course they had me do repairs here and they are all that sort of stuff you know one of those people kind of Moon by their maintenance here and there too so yeah didn't come into play Moc very often but I did go to building like the back of my hand you could say and yes had access if needed. When I was younger my father worked at a church I knew just what every system that place like the back of my hand including the pneumatic control system there was stuff that had not been touched in years that's some people said even if you tried to move a knob or a lever or whatever it probably would not move or it might break off in your hand That's how little did actually have to be changed seriously is actually pretty Royal usually Although the new if I remember correctly boiler had a tendency to blow fuses for some unknown reason yep every so often down your blow room change fuses. And it would never blow again right away it was just some pork no one was able to figure it out if I make just stop doing it never had to replace some sense and that was without intervention from anyone weird. But Ortho stor mesha staff these systems were either All or Nothing sistoms at least in terms of Honor off on the steam radiators since that you cannot throttle the steam with a valve at least normally is in you get in the problems of chattering valves or inadequate extraction from condensation if not as simple as running a hot water or forced air system where you just bury the amount fluid in ear Sarah's of fluid in a system to affect the outcome of the temperature or excetera but you can just do owner off bang bang control for the radiators and yes there were some radiators and some systems there were actually more like an air handler essentially fin tube radiators that look like more like large condensers for refrigeration units Etc but we're actually considered a fan coil. Also I've seen radiators built of just you bins for play Inland zigzagging back and forth 4 radiator refract at the church that's what are you doing in your good Chambers to heat them. probably the largest radiator I've ever seen what's located in the organ Loft in a room just Ernie's where the old hold on quote sound equipment was which is an absolute hodgepodge of stuff from over the years there was a door and no longer anything one time I was curious got a flashlight and take a look nothing really down there just a few things stored in there can't remember Carlo ceiling it looked up and low and behold a ginormous steam radiator it must have been feet thick and at least what four feet long or more maybe going to 6 or 8. And that estimate was on the small side as well. and yes these radiator valve actuator for similar to the idea of those wax water operators and that if I was actually held closed the valve operator in the case of these numerical is essentially a large diaphragm not a piston or cylinder that acted against the spring that would push the valve closed so that if there was air pressure on the inlet the valve is closed and when that pressure was released if I was hoping since the former issue with people either accidentally-on-purpose breaking the tubing going to the thermostat. although there was only one thermostat it was connected differently than all the others the one kitchen of the church was unknowingly to anyone the pilot thermostat that actually enabled the Border operation so without that thermostat there are whatever and no call for heat I'm not sure if that there was his self was different or anything but I just know it was connected differently at least there's some other equipment. That would not normally be present. how they found out is during a new construction is that thermostat have been completely disconnected of course since they were doing demolition poopsie on that when someone came in there was no heat whatsoever everything else checked out and that someone realized Houston we have a problem and that someone realized Houston we have a problem that thermostat is the one that access the thermostat to enable the boiler oops. so in one of the rooms downstairs in the middle of the church there was a thermostat hanging out of the ceiling on tubing until the work was done. when I was a little kid when he lives in apartment complex and there was Steam Heat however it was just manual valves that first later on they had the air vent controls the little thermostat thingy didn't work so great but it was it did help. is there at the apartment it was one of those single pipe system if I remember correctly yeah those ones that the radios we get longer waterlogged and sometimes and they have to replace the air vents all the time And we also had to keep a bucket or can under radiator air valve the right ear because it wouldn't supposed to act like Old Faithful as we called it. those were a little bit device to eliminate trapped here and sometimes a bit of steam as well because it's not one of those systems that has steam traps in a return line. if I remember the apartment complex had a place I think they called it the powerhouse whichever did leap what it was was a banker boilers had a huge chimney like fire free chimney The Lofts at least in the scaled apartment you look more like what would be on a large building shaped like a factory chimney and I do believe the hot water heating system was in there as well in terms of for domestic hot water because there were no water heaters either in the basements of the apartments in the individual there are few times all there was was gas meters daddy is if you had gas hooked up in your apartment but evidently it's only use for gas ranges. also I do believe most of the utilities other than of course electric wire underground there was some overhead wiring for a few things but rest was underground he also had what I call dumb dumb lollipop lights around the roadways snow trying to find out who makes those. round white translucent globe silver metal pole that's all I know probably either the low pressure sodium or mercury vapor it was kind of orange when it came on so thinking either that or maybe self ballasted Mercury I think I actually got a tour of the PowerHouse once if I'm not mistaken.. oh and yeah it is Shinto gas ranges I think the gas may have provided for a gas dryer possibly as well. but not for hot water. I was too young to know how utilities for paid in all so yeah with the heat and hot water who knows How utilities were calculated. I don't even know if there's water meter or not there was no evidence of that. and every so often we would have steam coming out of manholes if there's a problem or a manhole flooded likely dumps weirdest team lines were kind of like New York City if you kind of like New York City if you would on a small scale. also I toured the Waterworks of the city wants as well.
Yip, I was gonna say the same thing, I've dissected a load of engine thermostats over the years, such a simple and effective design that it hasn't changed at all... ruclips.net/video/_HclvBmwWgQ/видео.html
So they say “do not open” and then put three nice non-security screws to allow it to be opened easily, and to make it worse, they use clips so that you can take all the screws out, and nothing happens until you unclip it at which point - unless you are careful - the whole thing flies out in your face. Stupid design. If there were no clips, at least the whole thing would move out slowly as the screws were undone, and you would have some warning.
I'd guess the clips are there to keep the spring pressure from pulling the screws out. Probably saved the manufacturer a couple cents per unit to not use brass inserts or through bolts.
Michael Fisher You have no idea of what good or bad design is. This device won't be taken apart in the field for repairs therefor, as long as the device does not fall apart in use, the design is adequate. There is a warning not to take apart so anyone that takes it apart is doing so at their own peril.
You’re correct on your assessment of failures modes - I have one which failed a few weeks ago, and the PTC heating disc had arced over to the body of the wax motor. Plenty of soot inside the unit from that!
@@penfold7800 I find a certain website helps to make it extend.
4 года назад+1
These devices are wonderful for heating and cooling service but they definately are bothersome when they fail in service, too many of them only last a few years and service costs can cripple a homeowner. Trying to find replacements in a timely manner also run up the labour costs and really drop customer satisfaction to the point they imagine we are ripping them off when we bill them for our time. I have found them installed in remote places impossible to access without destruction of ceilings or baseboards further adding to costs. Thank you for the most informative video on a mystery I have often pondered but never had time to look into. You are a favourite of mine as well as my adult son who followed in my footsteps in heating and cooling repair.
A few years ago SV Seaker was trying to do the lost wax technique for making molds and he poured melted was when he was done into a 5 gallon bucket ,when it cooled the center was about 8 inches lower then the edge. It really surprised me to see how much it contracted.
Really interesting to see the wax motor. In many ways it replicates how a standard TRV operates. The force necessary to press the plunger on the valve body is quite immense. It's difficult to imagine another electrical method of activation in such a small space (possibly micro motors and worm drives?). Thank you!
Oooooch! This type of actuator have a habit of malfunction when it is old, the white case and the black base turn floppy and bend under constant spring pressure and heat. A tiny gap eats up all the work done by the wax motor. You will see the indicator move, you test it with multimeter it is fine. But it simply do not work. I would say it is a bad design, or bad material selection.
@@ianmorris8534 why not? Do you know how much time these thing cost to troubleshoot out? Manpower is money. In fact, they are the exact person i want them to hear.
Interesting video Clive, I have the Tado heating control system and the radiator actuators are wireless powered by 2 AA batteries but is servo driven and when it adjusts the valve you get the noise from the servo which can be quite annoying because the noise is amplified by the radiators.
Big fan Clive since I discovered you (on another RUclips account) a few months ago. Love your videos.! I deal with these Polypipe UFH actuators regularly - because when one of the fails, and it is wired into a Polypipe wiring centre, it blows a fuse (either in the wiring centre, and/or the fused spur, and/or trips out on the consumer unit. As the manifolds are often in the same circuit as the heating system (heat-pumps in my case) this often means that the poor customer has no heating or hot water so long as the faulty actuator remains wired into the system. When I come out to fix I have discerned no way to determine which actuator is the faulty one (despite getting on to Polypipe - who were useless). I have to unwire them all (often between 10 and 20) the one by one wire them back in again until I blow a fuse, this is very fiddly and takes a long time. I have one customer who was getting mightily peed off after calling me out 6 or 7 times over the years to solve this same problem as the actuators one-by-one failed. I now recommend to any customer when this happens that they replace all the actuators with the more recent Polypipe actuators (round). All that preamble is leading up to my questions for you . How are these simple devices failing (exact model you disassembled)? Can you think of a way of testing for a failed actuator, without using the trial/error method above? BTW doing a simple resistance test on a cold actuator doesn't seem to turn up anything, most of them are between 1.3 and 0.8kOhms, I think they fail and trip only after they have started warming up. Hope you find this question interesting enough to investigate, but no worries if you don't! Keep up with the fascinating videos.
at the machine shop I used to work we built a plexiglass and aluminum extrusion "blast chamber" for anything that fell or exploded into impossible to find bits. Green contrast paint on the back and bottom made retrieving pins, retaining rings, and springs easy.
@@lezardo That is actually really smart! I wish I could do that for my 3D printer desk, but I don't have the space.... Small parts become ad hoc projectiles when you pop them off the bed.
Agreed. One of the worst is when you are rebuilding a carburetor and springs and ball bearings go flying before you even saw where they came from. Had one carb rebuild that dropped a ball bearing while being reassembled, and my BIG mistake was not doing the job with it removed from the engine. Once the engine was started it knocked horribly.
Gonna take a guess at 2 minutes in, based on the power consumption curve when it's switched on and Clive's description of how it actuates... Wax motor? Edit: Bully for me. Thanks AvE!
@@collinreisdorf they're neat little devices, and once you understand how they operate and the kind of actuation force they can provide, it becomes more obvious that such a thing would be perfect for this application. Along with other clues like the self-regulating current draw provided by the PTC element. Wouldn't have had a clue if I hadn't already watched AvE's vid on the subject though! 😆
Wax motors are also the basis of the thermostat in your cars engine. Works on the same principal in that the thermostat is set at the factory to open at a particular temperature by crimping the body a set amount to displace the desired amount of wax to open it. On cooling, the contracting wax causes the thermostat to close.
Years ago, I was driving my older brother somewhere. He's a big science fiction fan. At the time, I had a 1992 Mazda Protege, and the hazard light switch was this big, oversized red plastic bar right in the center of the dashboard, that glowed subtly when the headlights were on, and of course had the international "warning triangle" symbol on it. Anyhow, he noticed the softly glowing, big red button, and exclaimed "Hey, what's this button do?" while simultaneously pushing it. I responded that if this were one of his TV shows, we'd be dead. "Don't you know better than to press the big red button?"
As a general appliance technician, I can say that most top-loading washing machines do not use wax motors as door locks. They either use a solenoid or have no lock at all. As for front-loaders, most of the new ones use maglocks, the older ones are mostly mechanical.
I think that additionally, this motor has more longevity, stability, and reliability than an electro-mechanical actuator. It's really genius; there's only one moving part.
I was thinking the same thing, granted it's slower than necessary for this unless the pipe being controlled is insanely long the pressure wave slowing the incoming water does travel at 1.4 km/s after all. That said probably by far the simplest and most reliable electric mechanism to pull this off using a stepper motor or similar would have higher maintenance costs especially if being deployed in a large system where there would be tons of them/
This is very similar to the automatic choke assemblies on some carbs. When the motor is hot, the choke isn't in use but when cold, the choke is used. They also use a wax motor to operate the choke. It is sort of a tried and true method; they do eventually "fail" by sticking though. I would think it is more to do with the environment they operate in on a carb compared to being used indoors to control a radiator assembly. Honda called it Thermo wax. I believe they also used a similar device on throttle bodies to control the fast idle; when cold it would allow additional air which would cause the RPM's to be higher. When the engine heated up the thermo wax assembly would then decrease the fast idle and eventually just stop it by not allowing the additional air in.
I had an extractor hood where the motor is a common somewhere a few floors up, where the valve to open the air flow was using a similar thingy like this (just a plastic disc rotating in the tube). Seemed like a bit of an electricity waste to me.
15 minutes ago, I wouldn't have been able to tell you that I was about to watch a guy dissect a piece of tech for fun. What an interesting video - I like when people break things down like this. I feel smarter. :D
that is super interesting! the wax actuator + spring combination makes it seem to be optimized for very high force, which makes me wonder about the construction of the radiator valve side. afair in the few radiator valves that i have seen in my life, the pin was easily pushed with a finger. also there is those battery operated smart home heating actuators that must be using a less power hungry actuator, probably a small motor with a large reduction gearbox.
These wax motors are also used as thermostats on air cooled engines to control air flaps that direct more air to the cylinder heads when it's cold and allow the cylinders to heat up to temperature more efficiently.
i recall the wax also has copper in it, in powder form, to increase expanmsion or heat transfer`? i remember seeing that from a how it is made video, or atleast thats inside thermostats in cars that also have a wax piston
All sorts of things make their way into the various waxes used for passive control. Its not a unified recipe; it's all about the desired operation specs, how fast it needs to move what temp it needs to move etc.
I'm actually quite surprised that he didn't mention automotive thermostats when talking about places that wax motors are used. Maybe because he was only thinking of electrically actuated ones, rather than ones actuated by the heat of the water around them? Still, this one looks quite similar to the ones used in a thermostat.
@@mattelder1971 perhaps he didnt know about it? ask any random street dweller and they might not know what an automotive thermostat is, Clives speciality is electronics, not so much cars and engines
@@fromfin90 Quite true. I guess growing up in a culture where nearly everyone works on their own cars, at least for basic repairs, colors my own experience of the world. I tend to assume that anyone who is well versed in technology would know at least the basics of automotive technologies as well.
Some motorcycles and scooters use a wax motor, small heating element and a plunger with a needle valve in the carburetor for the cold start circuit, adding a bit of extra fuel until the engine warms up so it's easier to start in cold weather. Water cooled engine thermostats work in exactly this same way as well.
@@R.Daneel oh very true. So that makes me wonder if its a typo or simply an issue with translation. Some words do not directly translate from one language to another without taking grammar into consideration.
Also it allows intermediate positions to be acessed by PWMing the supply voltage, even if PWM frequency is quite low (should work down to around 0.1Hz)
The main advantage to these (apart from cost) is that they open and close the valves slowly and don't cause any hammer. You can't begin to imagine the amplification of a solenoid valve caused by connecting it to a pipe buried in a large slab of concrete which is effectively floating. I had a couple of circuits temporarily connected with solenoid valves whilst we were system testing and and you could hear the thump all over the house.
@@bschena The normal mixer on a UK electric shower, about 25 quid on ebay, replacement thermostat about 5 to 10 quid. ruclips.net/video/wid-rn6LLxk/видео.html
I guess a larger form of these must be used to open the vents at the apex of greenhouses to prevent overheating. They’re passive, just look like 30cm long hydraulic cylinders connected via a rotating shaft to open tens of windows at the same time, so they’re really strong.
Nice to see it inside. I used to work a lot with actuators but never disassemble 😁.Anyway in Europe mostly they’re for 24V AC for safety reasons.Two types-NC and NO, normally closed normally open.Again mostly in use are NO.If is no electricity then valve is still opened.At the end-red pin goes up much quicker if is fitted on manifold as there is another pin with spring pushing it up.
These are always used on underfloor heating manifolds but very very rarely on radiator valves. Often if you require a remote sensor on a radiator they use the type with a small capillary tube between valve and sensor. I've never actually looked inside one though, I always assumed it was some kind of motor but now I see why they take so long to open. 👍
Interesting. I had a requirement for an actuator for radiator valve that was also electrically controlled (and proportional too). In my instance I ended up using a miniature stepper motor driving a cam that actuated the plunger. As I already needed a microcontroller in this application this wasn't a problematic overhead. The stepper motor drive is done in software rather than needing a dedicated chip.
Interesting solution to the problem as these are basically TRVs with the wax motor heated actively instead of passively. It reminds me of the period in time where some car manufacturers were fitting computer-controlled carburettors; it took a well-known and reliable technology and added more control, rather than going fully into EFI which was not so well known or reliable then. I have Schneider/Drayton Wiser valve actuators, and these sound like they use some variant of linear actuator with an electric motor as you can hear them whizzing open and closed. They're each powered by a pair of AA batteries so heating up a wax motor isn't really an option!
2k likes in 2 hours. Its so nice to see fellow nerds watching "educational" videos on RUclips. Not just watching other people playing GTA5, people eating food audibly, or bum fights. Thats what kids are watching these days right? 😆 Keep 'em coming Clive.
Oh, there are some fools that have done just that with orphaned/lost Russian radioactive thermal generators (RTGs) . bellona.org/news/nuclear-issues/radioactive-waste-and-spent-nuclear-fuel/2015-11-foreign-funds-have-almost-entirely-rid-russia-of-orphaned-radioactive-power-generators
That 'wax motor' looks very similar to the wax 'stat' used in most vehicle thermostats, for the cooling system. I used to test them in a pan of boiling water, to see if they opened. Cheap enough to chuck away and replace anyway, but proved where the problem lay.
@tim g Nice one, thanks! 👍 I had heard the phrase before from my Dad (used in typical "dad joke" fashion of course) and knew its origin, but I've never actually seen any of Sumner Miller's presentations. You've done me a great service this day.
very interesting, so when the (wax engine) gets hot, the pin goes out, and opens the radiator valve (translated by Google Netherlands to English), it will work slower than a Danfoss RA 2000 top models with unique liquid vapor load. thanks again 🙏
I feel like this is a reupload but can tell from the scars on the bench and Clive's fingers that it's not. Edit: Ah, AvE did one. ruclips.net/video/MiADday0mDA/видео.html
Wax motors are (maybe were) also used in car engine cooling, in the thermostatic valves that regulate the flow of coolant from the engine to the radiator - they start closed to ensure fast heating when the engine is started and then slowly allow flow, as normal running temperature is reached. The flow in the valve is variable, to act as a temperature regulator (if running fast in a cold weather the valve will close the necessary to maintain a reasonably constant coolant temperature).
That same wax motor is used in automobile thermostats. As the engine heats up the piston moves out pushing the valve plate upward allowing the coolant to flow. You don't need sub-second response times, very reliable, no external control.
Given that these valves are often used on heating systems, I wonder how much they're affected by the temperature of the valves they actuate. If it's strictly for hydronic (i.e. not steam) heating systems, the max temperature would be < 100°C, but it would still need to be able to passively cool the wax motor enough to relax and thus shut the valve. Must go find and look at the data sheet! Thanks for your lovely videos!
Once you had it opened, I recognized the wax motor, as it is nearly identical to the ones in automobile engine thermostats. An interesting application, that.
I work in UFH - we don't use these actuators but similar thermo electric ones, if the clips fail the spring in sides can launch everything off with some force!
Very interesting. I've got 5 of these on my underfloor heating and have been in place for 25 years and still working, I thought they were solenoid's. These work then the same as a car thermostat (wax stat).
Motor = powered device that makes motion. Rotor = powered device that rotates. Funny that the mechanical-automatic version of that valve is the same type of wax element, just inverted so the heat of the steam closes it.
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
This should be the start of a 'DO NOT OPEN' series.
You've just summarised the whole channel. (That and will it go bang if I do this...?)
„SCREW IT I’LL UNSCREW IT!“
Do not open are for the folks who really dont know what they are doing and the company is just doing their CYA procedure.
The Potential Darwin series ? 😉
@@firefox3187 Russian Darwin Roulette..
The spring, normally last seen flying past my head at mach 3 never to be seen again. So far no eyes have been lost to supersonic surprise springs.
I could cope with losing an eye. It's losing the spring that is most annoying.
I bought a box of assorted springs for just this occasion.
Haha, circlips are guilty of that, too!
@@bikeaddictbp or when using the wire wheel on the bench grinder to clean bolts and they are trebiched across the shop
No big issue if you lose an eye.
You have another one to use while searching for the spring.
(In all seriousness, this is a timely reminder to go and purchase some kind of Random Spring Assortment Kit from one of our favourite Fine Chinesium Vendors, to head that kind of frustration off at the pass.)
“Do not open” is actually code for, be careful when you do open it.
Its code for "don't sue us"
Back in the day, it would have been labelled "Open At Own Risk", loosely translated as "If you break it, or yourself, tough shit mate".
Now the marvelous March of Safety Culture has brought us the message of "NEVER TOUCH THE NAUGHTY BITS OR YOU WILL BE A VERY BAD BOY/GIRL AND MADE TO SIT IN THE CORNER".
It's nice to see that there's still plenty of young folk out there (including many with a presence here on RUclips) who are willing to risk a spanking in the pursuit of knowledge and understanding. 🙂
"NEVER OPEN! Danger of knowlege!"
It's actually code for "WARRANTY IS VOID IF PRODUCT SEALS ARE DAMAGED OR REMOVED"; AKA - You Break it, you fix it.
Luis de Rivas That’s more "if our shoddy workmanship breaks it and you try to fix it, we’ll weasel our way out of supporting it." Any company which actually means "you break it, you fix it" will say as much
I misheard "big powerful spring" as "big purple spring".
Consequently I spent the next 11 minutes on tenterhooks waiting for a peuce-coloured spring - but I was sorely disappointed :(
I heard purple also, spent 10 minutes wondering why a springs color mattered!
Reasonably that sure in Scotland, they are pretty much the same word.
I heard purple as well
Ditto.
I was disappointed when it wasn't purple.
@@f.demascio1857 Yea Colored springs make me moist!
Whenever I see a "DO NOT OPEN" warning, I always assume it's because of a capacitor, never thought it could be due to a spring. Either way, it's amazing how simple yet complex this actuator is.
Anything that stores and releases energy.
or there's Cesium in it
@@Jacob_graber i see what you did there…
i just imagined someone opening the wrong door at a dam and then everyone’s TVs in a 5 mile radius blowing up, 😂
@@threestans9096 What do you mean "I see what you did there"? He didn't make any puns he just gave a straight fact lol
@@sn0wt1ger anything that stores and releases energy can be many many many things. from a lithium battery, or capacitor to a spring.
orrrr a bag full of water on a tree branch is a form of mechanical energy storage.
I've never before waited in such anticipation to see a spring!
I have a raimbow uwu
You aren't the only one 🤣
Then when it is revealed.. "Wow a spring!"
You've obviously never lived in Sweden!
Spoiler!
“do not open”
Yeah...right.
That phrase makes me want to open it even more!
Absolutely inevitable. Always methinks "why not, and I really need to know why" :-)
"Do NOT press this button, it will end the world"... But will it really though? I mean, really, really?
It is Like with kids. You know what happens if you tell them to DO NOT push that big red button...
"DO NOT OPEN"
*wink*
They didn't even use tamper resistant security screws. They really don't care if you open it lol
DO NOT use the words 'DO NOT" when Clive is nearby.
Or, as Clive reads it, “use the words when Clive is nearby.”
Paradox!
**Clive pokes head into room**
The most common failure I’ve found is the plastic cover drying out and cracking, then the spring pops out the top.
oh how exciting.
I love how Clive is like
" its dangerous, I MUST KNOW WHATS INSIDE"
The thing is... I recognise that instinct.
I have a wax motor in my greenhouse roof window. Opens depending on temperature. Its been working for years.
So that's how they work. I've long wondered about those. Thanks.
Unless it gets caught in a fire wax motors almost never wear out too. One less thing in life to worry about. Except that fire part. A fire in the greenhouse is never fun.
@@noobpro9759 how can a fire start in a greenhouse? I’d understand if the greenhouse is full of dry straw but not green alive well plants
@@619guy202 it can rain during a forest fire and not put it out. Its a glass box that makes heat. Shit happens and green houses often end up as storage for other things than just plants.
@@noobpro9759 jup.. like bags of fertiliser etc. good stuff :)
That same type of device is what GM used on many 4X4 trucks for years. It was used to move the front axle interlock to put them into 4Wheel drive. It was about 2 years after they were introduced that the first replacements using a conventional motor came out on the market. The OEM units would activate so slow in a cold environment that you were never sure if the front axle was locked. They were replaced with a vacuum unit on the smaller trucks and a motor on the larger ones.
I first learned about these wax "motors" from cars. Specifically the thermostat that regulates coolant flow so your engine stays about the same temperature at operating and warms up properly. If it ever goes wrong you can have issues where your car either over cools from being stuck open or overheats from being stuck closed. It also has a pretty powerful spring in it as I found when playing with one someone had lying around. I had great difficulty even moving the valve a milimeter.
Exactly what I came to say - my E46 3-series is the first car I've owned with one. My one is stuck open, thankfully ;)
Back in the 80's Mikuni carbs used wax elements for automatic chokes. Super expensive carbs, glad mine that failed was under warranty.
@k halliday Some are, many are not. They can fail in both ways.
No need to put quotes around "motor". It is, in fact, a motor
@k halliday Tell Ford that !
Some self-regulating steam control valves use a bulb, capillary and bellows (piston) to operate the steam valve without any electricity. Just uses expansion of xylene vapor in the bulb to expand the bellows to close the steam valve at the set temperature.
This wax motor puts the PTC heating element directly on the bellows / piston. Interesting device to see dismantled, Clive!!
Shout out to Spirax
My dad was a 18 wheeler mechanic. He was working on the rear brakes when it’s spring shot out and gave him a huge knot on his noggin. Springs under load can be very unpredictable and dangerous.
Every car has one of those wax expansion pistons in its thermostat.
The washing machine door interlock is usually a bi-metalic strip.
Thank you Big Clive for cultivating a cozy corner in this crazy world
Warning contains death!
Clive: challenge accepted
I remember watching a youtube video a while ago where they directly stated that they essentially treated the warning label as a "how to" manual for explosions (this was for LiPo batteries, I think).
These are used in extractor fans with the silent automatic shutters - the shutter is held closed with a spring, when the fan is turned on, the wax is heated and slowly pushes the shutter open against the spring, why the reason the fan sounds blocked up when first turned on and after 1 minute, would sound like it’s clearing itself.
Been a BMS engineer for 20 years and never seen the inside of one of these. I fully understood the principle but seeing it is so much easier. I'll be using this when training!
"NASA scientists have calculated that the glittering purple object sighted on numerous space-watching telescopes around the world must have been launched from a yet to be uncovered base somewhere in northern Europe."
after some calculations, it was from a small garage in a seemingly normal subdivision. Occupant claimed the hole in the roof was from a large piece of hail 10 years ago.
So glad you dismantled this.
When I worked in warm floors, we used Uponor's version. The boss always talked about "the wax motor" but none of us had a clue how it worked.
Makes complete sense now.
You'll see more of it in the next video.
Hey, I use these actuators too. Thanks for showing me what's inside. It's always fun to see what's actually inside.
7:57 automobile thermostats use a similar wax motor assembly the underside is just heated by engine coolant instead of a PTC.
They calibrate them during manufacture by heating them up to the desired opening temperature and crimp the base (reducing the space for the wax to expand) until the ram fully extends.
Thanks for opening it up I’ve always wanted to know what the wax motor inside looks like! I use these in a manifold to control room radiators. I’ve always wondered why can’t they be small circuits to control a stepper so it is fast and doesn’t need to draw power once in position. But your point about slow speed makes sense. If it was a fast shut off valve then it would create water hammer. This is simple and effective and seems to be reliable so far in my installation.
Here he cut it in half to see the insides:
ruclips.net/video/B1SScrdAq3g/видео.html
Neato! A variant of your 'wax motor' is the actuator in a car's 'thermostat'. Many of these are simple butterfly valves put in the main coolant/antifreeze flow path. They have a similar was motor that pushes against a spring, opening the butterfly valve. One common amateur mechanic's mistake is installing them backwards, so the temperature sensitive wax cylinder doesn't get heated up while the engine overheats. Nice video. :)
Your commentary is fantastic and very therapeutic. I love this combination with your knowledgeable content. Great Channel.
"Excuse me while I wait for this to extend." Phrasing! ;-)
A dial indicator would show the motion visibly
Or a time-lapse
@@rutgerhoutdijk3547 beat me to it
I remember reading in the Chinese-English instructions for an electrical device the warning "Not to used for the other use". Of course, that immediately got the imagination running as to what "the other use" would be. Shame I can't remember what the device was now - it may come back to me.
It's an Idiot's Delight machine. Murphy woz ere.
much of the boiler controls on this side of the pond are 24v including the Taco wax motor zone valves.
I used one of those valves to be able to use an electronic thermostat on a radiator, it was 24v.
Also he renew your essay especially an old older places over buildings although it's been modernized with additional stuff of course and automation but still would be backwards compatible with the right devices excetera and there's some newer installations of course I'm sure but mostly additions to Old systems back in the day I do remember when they had the steam heating systems it was not just a steam valves but also damper actuators and some other things that were operating pneumatically and this was a clever system in that Soul automation was actually possible through only one pneumatic line for example the thermostats could actually be equipped didn't know if all the more but they could be used to do setbacks for temperature by just changing the incoming air line pressure which would affect a setback on the set temperature Marvel schools and other buildings and churches had these systems but when the issues was if there was a big enough leak a pipe breaks or the comfort you which is often used between the valve actuator for the radiator and the wall although sometimes this was replaced with a plastic pipe you know tubing if it's going to be enough leak or broke all together whatever radiators were on that thermostat yep on Intel could be repaired or somehow isolate the steam from that radiator and there wasn't always local valves in that room for this here and there yes I remember in school bathrooms there was isolation valves at each radiator however in the classrooms no there were times in the winter time during the heating season we would have to use a different classroom for the same class because there be no way that you could be in there it was so hot and yes some of the windows were not configured to open yeah that's a thing upstairs especially.
But I do remember one time was he instructor's someone was messing with one of those copper lines on the valve actuator and yeah those are those green things you see on all the radiators here and yes I'm in the United States again if I didn't mention it.
And he said something to the effect you know if you're doing that and you break that copper line does radiators come on full blast all them in this room.
You know he wasn't scolding right thing you just you just put the info doorway there was enough just let me know. Maybe I shouldn't do that this was just some random student because I knew better and if I saw somebody doing that I would like to know the consequences and that there was something about I asked once I think the principal and dad found out that some people have been doing it deliberately sabotage the keep class from happening especially before tests and other things like that it depends on circumstances but people had been suspended for doing that if it was under Mouse you could say.
I was curious if it had ever been done of course they knew that I was aware of things like that because of well I am one of those people that had access to the school shop of course they had me do repairs here and they are all that sort of stuff you know one of those people kind of Moon by their maintenance here and there too so yeah
didn't come into play Moc very often but I did go to building like the back of my hand you could say and yes had access if needed.
When I was younger my father worked at a church I knew just what every system that place like the back of my hand including the pneumatic control system there was stuff that had not been touched in years that's some people said even if you tried to move a knob or a lever or whatever it probably would not move or it might break off in your hand That's how little did actually have to be changed seriously is actually pretty Royal usually
Although the new if I remember correctly boiler had a tendency to blow fuses for some unknown reason yep every so often down your blow room change fuses.
And it would never blow again right away it was just some pork no one was able to figure it out if I make just stop doing it never had to replace some sense and that was without intervention from anyone weird.
But Ortho stor mesha staff these systems were either All or Nothing sistoms at least in terms of Honor off on the steam radiators since that you cannot throttle the steam with a valve at least normally is in you get in the problems of chattering valves or inadequate extraction from condensation if not as simple as running a hot water or forced air system where you just bury the amount fluid in ear Sarah's of fluid in a system to affect the outcome of the temperature or excetera but you can just do owner off bang bang control for the radiators and yes there were some radiators and some systems there were actually more like an air handler essentially fin tube radiators that look like more like large condensers for refrigeration units Etc but we're actually considered a fan coil.
Also I've seen radiators built of just you bins for play Inland zigzagging back and forth 4 radiator refract at the church that's what are you doing in your good Chambers to heat them.
probably the largest radiator I've ever seen what's located in the organ Loft in a room just Ernie's where the old hold on quote sound equipment was which is an absolute hodgepodge of stuff from over the years there was a door and no longer anything one time I was curious got a flashlight and take a look nothing really down there just a few things stored in there can't remember Carlo ceiling it looked up and low and behold a ginormous steam radiator it must have been feet thick and at least what four feet long or more maybe going to 6 or 8.
And that estimate was on the small side as well.
and yes these radiator valve actuator for similar to the idea of those wax water operators and that if I was actually held closed the valve operator in the case of these numerical is essentially a large diaphragm not a piston or cylinder that acted against the spring that would push the valve closed so that if there was air pressure on the inlet the valve is closed and when that pressure was released if I was hoping since the former issue with people either accidentally-on-purpose breaking the tubing going to the thermostat.
although there was only one thermostat it was connected differently than all the others the one kitchen of the church was unknowingly to anyone the pilot thermostat that actually enabled the Border operation so without that thermostat there are whatever and no call for heat I'm not sure if that there was his self was different or anything but I just know it was connected differently at least there's some other equipment. That would not normally be present. how they found out is during a new construction is that thermostat have been completely disconnected of course since they were doing demolition poopsie on that when someone came in there was no heat whatsoever everything else checked out and that someone realized Houston we have a problem and that someone realized Houston we have a problem that thermostat is the one that access the thermostat to enable the boiler oops.
so in one of the rooms downstairs in the middle of the church there was a thermostat hanging out of the ceiling on tubing until the work was done.
when I was a little kid when he lives in apartment complex and there was Steam Heat however it was just manual valves that first later on they had the air vent controls the little thermostat thingy didn't work so great but it was it did help.
is there at the apartment it was one of those single pipe system if I remember correctly yeah those ones that the radios we get longer waterlogged and sometimes and they have to replace the air vents all the time And we also had to keep a bucket or can under radiator air valve the right ear because it wouldn't supposed to act like Old Faithful as we called it.
those were a little bit device to eliminate trapped here and sometimes a bit of steam as well because it's not one of those systems that has steam traps in a return line.
if I remember the apartment complex had a place I think they called it the powerhouse whichever did leap what it was was a banker boilers had a huge chimney like fire free chimney The Lofts at least in the scaled apartment you look more like what would be on a large building shaped like a factory chimney and I do believe the hot water heating system was in there as well in terms of for domestic hot water because there were no water heaters either in the basements of the apartments in the individual there are few times all there was was gas meters daddy is if you had gas hooked up in your apartment but evidently it's only use for gas ranges.
also I do believe most of the utilities other than of course electric wire underground there was some overhead wiring for a few things but rest was underground he also had what I call dumb dumb lollipop lights around the roadways snow trying to find out who makes those.
round white translucent globe silver metal pole that's all I know probably either the low pressure sodium or mercury vapor it was kind of orange when it came on so thinking either that or maybe self ballasted Mercury
I think I actually got a tour of the PowerHouse once if I'm not mistaken..
oh and yeah it is Shinto gas ranges I think the gas may have provided for a gas dryer possibly as well.
but not for hot water.
I was too young to know how utilities for paid in all so yeah with the heat and hot water who knows How utilities were calculated.
I don't even know if there's water meter or not there was no evidence of that.
and every so often we would have steam coming out of manholes if there's a problem or a manhole flooded likely dumps weirdest team lines were kind of like New York City if you kind of like New York City if you would on a small scale.
also I toured the Waterworks of the city wants as well.
Our old boiler had a 24V AC gas valve on it. (Which went open circuit on 30+ year old boiler. Goodbye old boiler !)
SO it operates like a thermostat on a engine for lack of better words? Interesting.
That's an excellent analogy.
@@COBARHORSE1 It is, in fact, an exact analogy, as typical internal combustion engine thermostats are simply spring-loaded wax motors.
Yip, I was gonna say the same thing, I've dissected a load of engine thermostats over the years, such a simple and effective design that it hasn't changed at all...
ruclips.net/video/_HclvBmwWgQ/видео.html
Yep
@@COBARHORSE1 yes and yes
So they say “do not open” and then put three nice non-security screws to allow it to be opened easily, and to make it worse, they use clips so that you can take all the screws out, and nothing happens until you unclip it at which point - unless you are careful - the whole thing flies out in your face. Stupid design. If there were no clips, at least the whole thing would move out slowly as the screws were undone, and you would have some warning.
What struck me is that the clips may be for production line fastening before a screw station buttons it all up. Just a theory though.
The designer/s of this device must be a student/s of Darwin.
I'd guess the clips are there to keep the spring pressure from pulling the screws out. Probably saved the manufacturer a couple cents per unit to not use brass inserts or through bolts.
The people that have any willingness to open this will not be stopped by security screws.
Michael Fisher You have no idea of what good or bad design is. This device won't be taken apart in the field for repairs therefor, as long as the device does not fall apart in use, the design is adequate. There is a warning not to take apart so anyone that takes it apart is doing so at their own peril.
You’re correct on your assessment of failures modes - I have one which failed a few weeks ago, and the PTC heating disc had arced over to the body of the wax motor. Plenty of soot inside the unit from that!
"give me a moment while I try and make this thing extend"
Yeah, apparently you just add heat. Who knew!
@@penfold7800 I find a certain website helps to make it extend.
These devices are wonderful for heating and cooling service but they definately are bothersome when they fail in service, too many of them only last a few years and service costs can cripple a homeowner. Trying to find replacements in a timely manner also run up the labour costs and really drop customer satisfaction to the point they imagine we are ripping them off when we bill them for our time.
I have found them installed in remote places impossible to access without destruction of ceilings or baseboards further adding to costs.
Thank you for the most informative video on a mystery I have often pondered but never had time to look into. You are a favourite of mine as well as my adult son who followed in my footsteps in heating and cooling repair.
A few years ago SV Seaker was trying to do the lost wax technique for making molds and he poured melted was when he was done into a 5 gallon bucket ,when it cooled the center was about 8 inches lower then the edge. It really surprised me to see how much it contracted.
It's the secret of lava lamps. The expansion and contraction really is surprising.
@@bigclivedotcom oh yes .... that makes sense now
Really interesting to see the wax motor. In many ways it replicates how a standard TRV operates. The force necessary to press the plunger on the valve body is quite immense. It's difficult to imagine another electrical method of activation in such a small space (possibly micro motors and worm drives?). Thank you!
Some modern ones do use powerful screw drive actuators for wireless battery operation.
Since I had to Google anyway: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermostatic_radiator_valve
Oooooch! This type of actuator have a habit of malfunction when it is old, the white case and the black base turn floppy and bend under constant spring pressure and heat. A tiny gap eats up all the work done by the wax motor. You will see the indicator move, you test it with multimeter it is fine. But it simply do not work. I would say it is a bad design, or bad material selection.
Good point! If it was made of steel or ceramic it would avoid that problem, but also cost more.
Better not let Bob hear you calling it a bad design, just sayin ;)
@@ianmorris8534 why not? Do you know how much time these thing cost to troubleshoot out? Manpower is money. In fact, they are the exact person i want them to hear.
Those are great wax heads paired with a watts manifold and a taco zone control makes for a long lasting hydronic system
GM uses wax motors to shift the trucks in and out of 4 wheel drive also.
Interesting video Clive, I have the Tado heating control system and the radiator actuators are wireless powered by 2 AA batteries but is servo driven and when it adjusts the valve you get the noise from the servo which can be quite annoying because the noise is amplified by the radiators.
I too was waiting for a purple spring. listened again and could hear "perful"
Purfull 😁
🤣😅
He's the best, love his accent.!!
Big fan Clive since I discovered you (on another RUclips account) a few months ago. Love your videos.!
I deal with these Polypipe UFH actuators regularly - because when one of the fails, and it is wired into a Polypipe wiring centre, it blows a fuse (either in the wiring centre, and/or the fused spur, and/or trips out on the consumer unit. As the manifolds are often in the same circuit as the heating system (heat-pumps in my case) this often means that the poor customer has no heating or hot water so long as the faulty actuator remains wired into the system.
When I come out to fix I have discerned no way to determine which actuator is the faulty one (despite getting on to Polypipe - who were useless). I have to unwire them all (often between 10 and 20) the one by one wire them back in again until I blow a fuse, this is very fiddly and takes a long time.
I have one customer who was getting mightily peed off after calling me out 6 or 7 times over the years to solve this same problem as the actuators one-by-one failed. I now recommend to any customer when this happens that they replace all the actuators with the more recent Polypipe actuators (round).
All that preamble is leading up to my questions for you . How are these simple devices failing (exact model you disassembled)? Can you think of a way of testing for a failed actuator, without using the trial/error method above? BTW doing a simple resistance test on a cold actuator doesn't seem to turn up anything, most of them are between 1.3 and 0.8kOhms, I think they fail and trip only after they have started warming up.
Hope you find this question interesting enough to investigate, but no worries if you don't! Keep up with the fascinating videos.
Springs leaving their intended place on a ballistic trajectory to never be seen again is the absolute worst! Especially if you need the spring......
at the machine shop I used to work we built a plexiglass and aluminum extrusion "blast chamber" for anything that fell or exploded into impossible to find bits. Green contrast paint on the back and bottom made retrieving pins, retaining rings, and springs easy.
@@lezardo That is actually really smart! I wish I could do that for my 3D printer desk, but I don't have the space.... Small parts become ad hoc projectiles when you pop them off the bed.
@@timmyalexandranova anything beat my cardboard "heat enclosure" for printing nylon
@@lezardo I don't even have that. Just an Ender 3 on a desk!
Agreed. One of the worst is when you are rebuilding a carburetor and springs and ball bearings go flying before you even saw where they came from. Had one carb rebuild that dropped a ball bearing while being reassembled, and my BIG mistake was not doing the job with it removed from the engine. Once the engine was started it knocked horribly.
Gonna take a guess at 2 minutes in, based on the power consumption curve when it's switched on and Clive's description of how it actuates... Wax motor?
Edit: Bully for me. Thanks AvE!
Same time stamp I thought the same thing, for the same reason.
@@collinreisdorf they're neat little devices, and once you understand how they operate and the kind of actuation force they can provide, it becomes more obvious that such a thing would be perfect for this application. Along with other clues like the self-regulating current draw provided by the PTC element. Wouldn't have had a clue if I hadn't already watched AvE's vid on the subject though! 😆
Wax motors are also the basis of the thermostat in your cars engine. Works on the same principal in that the thermostat is set at the factory to open at a particular temperature by crimping the body a set amount to displace the desired amount of wax to open it. On cooling, the contracting wax causes the thermostat to close.
Well of course it must be opened, it's like having a big red button that says "DO NOT PRESS" as a label, it MUST be pressed!!! :P
Push to test, release to detonate.
Reactance innit? Dangit whenever I see a big red button with "DO NOT TOUCH" written on it, I **have** to press it to see what would happen.
Years ago, I was driving my older brother somewhere. He's a big science fiction fan. At the time, I had a 1992 Mazda Protege, and the hazard light switch was this big, oversized red plastic bar right in the center of the dashboard, that glowed subtly when the headlights were on, and of course had the international "warning triangle" symbol on it. Anyhow, he noticed the softly glowing, big red button, and exclaimed "Hey, what's this button do?" while simultaneously pushing it. I responded that if this were one of his TV shows, we'd be dead. "Don't you know better than to press the big red button?"
ruclips.net/video/0XS20Rqz9Js/видео.html
As a general appliance technician, I can say that most top-loading washing machines do not use wax motors as door locks. They either use a solenoid or have no lock at all. As for front-loaders, most of the new ones use maglocks, the older ones are mostly mechanical.
Clive, you're awesome :) Thanks for keeping me entertained while I learn.
BC has dodged so many “do not open” bullets for us. ⚡️💥🕺 - thanks! 😊
Opening and closing slowly is undoubtedly a measure against water hammer.
I was just coming down here to say that.
I think that additionally, this motor has more longevity, stability, and reliability than an electro-mechanical actuator. It's really genius; there's only one moving part.
@@ninjaassassin27 Also highly probable. A solenoid is similarly simple, but has an instant action that isn't amenable to water valves.
@@CptJistuce that's true, I forgot about solenoids. Probably a sign that I need to stop sleep-crastinating and just rest up for work haha
I was thinking the same thing, granted it's slower than necessary for this unless the pipe being controlled is insanely long the pressure wave slowing the incoming water does travel at 1.4 km/s after all. That said probably by far the simplest and most reliable electric mechanism to pull this off using a stepper motor or similar would have higher maintenance costs especially if being deployed in a large system where there would be tons of them/
This is very similar to the automatic choke assemblies on some carbs. When the motor is hot, the choke isn't in use but when cold, the choke is used. They also use a wax motor to operate the choke. It is sort of a tried and true method; they do eventually "fail" by sticking though. I would think it is more to do with the environment they operate in on a carb compared to being used indoors to control a radiator assembly.
Honda called it Thermo wax. I believe they also used a similar device on throttle bodies to control the fast idle; when cold it would allow additional air which would cause the RPM's to be higher. When the engine heated up the thermo wax assembly would then decrease the fast idle and eventually just stop it by not allowing the additional air in.
Actually used in American dishwashers to time opening the detergent holder.
I had an extractor hood where the motor is a common somewhere a few floors up, where the valve to open the air flow was using a similar thingy like this (just a plastic disc rotating in the tube). Seemed like a bit of an electricity waste to me.
Ah, very good. When he said American washing machines for the lid interlock, I had to take a look at the comments. Thank you for clearing that up.
Thank you! Also in Bosch dishwashers.
And the thermostat in your car for letting the coolant flow.
@@sidewinder15599 ah so that was what was broken in my car. I learn every day ty.
15 minutes ago, I wouldn't have been able to tell you that I was about to watch a guy dissect a piece of tech for fun.
What an interesting video - I like when people break things down like this. I feel smarter. :D
"I can push and pull this, can I pull it out oh I actually have, that's not a good idea," I just died laughing.
that is super interesting! the wax actuator + spring combination makes it seem to be optimized for very high force, which makes me wonder about the construction of the radiator valve side. afair in the few radiator valves that i have seen in my life, the pin was easily pushed with a finger. also there is those battery operated smart home heating actuators that must be using a less power hungry actuator, probably a small motor with a large reduction gearbox.
There is a small one in my Honda powered push mower to operate the choke.
In that case, they're probably used on diesel engines to increase rpm when cold to aid starting.
These wax motors are also used as thermostats on air cooled engines to control air flaps that direct more air to the cylinder heads when it's cold and allow the cylinders to heat up to temperature more efficiently.
i recall the wax also has copper in it, in powder form, to increase expanmsion or heat transfer`? i remember seeing that from a how it is made video, or atleast thats inside thermostats in cars that also have a wax piston
All sorts of things make their way into the various waxes used for passive control.
Its not a unified recipe; it's all about the desired operation specs, how fast it needs to move what temp it needs to move etc.
I'm actually quite surprised that he didn't mention automotive thermostats when talking about places that wax motors are used. Maybe because he was only thinking of electrically actuated ones, rather than ones actuated by the heat of the water around them? Still, this one looks quite similar to the ones used in a thermostat.
@@mattelder1971 perhaps he didnt know about it? ask any random street dweller and they might not know what an automotive thermostat is, Clives speciality is electronics, not so much cars and engines
@@fromfin90 Quite true. I guess growing up in a culture where nearly everyone works on their own cars, at least for basic repairs, colors my own experience of the world. I tend to assume that anyone who is well versed in technology would know at least the basics of automotive technologies as well.
Some motorcycles and scooters use a wax motor, small heating element and a plunger with a needle valve in the carburetor for the cold start circuit, adding a bit of extra fuel until the engine warms up so it's easier to start in cold weather. Water cooled engine thermostats work in exactly this same way as well.
I've been watching your channel for years and only just now did I notice that the Hopi misspells the word "frequency."
Wow. I did not see that. However. I googled it. And frequence does come up on Websters dictionary. It is a synonym for frequency. Odd.
@@poellot webster was an idiot. the chinese copied him
@@poellot Yes. It's a bit posh, but valid. E.G. "The horse drawn carriages arrive with some frequence."
@@R.Daneel oh very true. So that makes me wonder if its a typo or simply an issue with translation. Some words do not directly translate from one language to another without taking grammar into consideration.
@@R.Daneel i can definitely say that if i have ever heard frequence used it would of been 15 years ago in school. Never that i can think of since.
As a kid I rarely opened anything without such a warning. That "WARNING" told me there was something interesting to be found inside.
most likely its designed to move slow to prevent water hammering in the pipes
that helps too.
Yeah, just like a politician's head - which is also filled with little more than wax.
Also it allows intermediate positions to be acessed by PWMing the supply voltage, even if PWM frequency is quite low (should work down to around 0.1Hz)
The main advantage to these (apart from cost) is that they open and close the valves slowly and don't cause any hammer. You can't begin to imagine the amplification of a solenoid valve caused by connecting it to a pipe buried in a large slab of concrete which is effectively floating. I had a couple of circuits temporarily connected with solenoid valves whilst we were system testing and and you could hear the thump all over the house.
Very similar to the thermostat in a bar shower with the addition of the heater, the un heated shower version has about 1mm of travel.
what's a "bar shower?" I"ve never heard that term. Ulterior motive: I would like to find some samples of these to experiment with...
@@bschena The normal mixer on a UK electric shower, about 25 quid on ebay, replacement thermostat about 5 to 10 quid. ruclips.net/video/wid-rn6LLxk/видео.html
I guess a larger form of these must be used to open the vents at the apex of greenhouses to prevent overheating. They’re passive, just look like 30cm long hydraulic cylinders connected via a rotating shaft to open tens of windows at the same time, so they’re really strong.
I believe they are based on wax expansion.
I wont be surprised if I start seeing ‘that means you bigclivedotcom’ on these warnings.
Nice to see it inside. I used to work a lot with actuators but never disassemble 😁.Anyway in Europe mostly they’re for 24V AC for safety reasons.Two types-NC and NO, normally closed normally open.Again mostly in use are NO.If is no electricity then valve is still opened.At the end-red pin goes up much quicker if is fitted on manifold as there is another pin with spring pushing it up.
"I wonder why this says do not open"
...
Lets cool off for 5 minutes and opens it
...
"Wow, this is still quite hot!"
These are always used on underfloor heating manifolds but very very rarely on radiator valves. Often if you require a remote sensor on a radiator they use the type with a small capillary tube between valve and sensor. I've never actually looked inside one though, I always assumed it was some kind of motor but now I see why they take so long to open. 👍
Think what they could do with a carbonated Bailey's motor!
What is that? What phrase you're referring to that is is that a thing now? Thank you you are you please explain yourself thanks
Aaron Brandenburg ruclips.net/video/pJeFMIeIPhM/видео.html
Interesting. I had a requirement for an actuator for radiator valve that was also electrically controlled (and proportional too). In my instance I ended up using a miniature stepper motor driving a cam that actuated the plunger. As I already needed a microcontroller in this application this wasn't a problematic overhead. The stepper motor drive is done in software rather than needing a dedicated chip.
Oh I thought you meant to not open the video. I clearly didn't follow that instruction.
OH CRAP, HE'S RIGHT ! ! !
This came up in the Recommendations,.. And I OPENED IT !
And now all I get,
Is " One Moment Please " 😂 🖖
That delay always feels forever when troubleshooting. Good vid bud 👍
Yeah, they're super-slow. You could make yourself a cup of coffee while it does its thing.
Interesting solution to the problem as these are basically TRVs with the wax motor heated actively instead of passively. It reminds me of the period in time where some car manufacturers were fitting computer-controlled carburettors; it took a well-known and reliable technology and added more control, rather than going fully into EFI which was not so well known or reliable then.
I have Schneider/Drayton Wiser valve actuators, and these sound like they use some variant of linear actuator with an electric motor as you can hear them whizzing open and closed. They're each powered by a pair of AA batteries so heating up a wax motor isn't really an option!
(he opens it, finding a thumbnail sized angry dwarf with a gun)
*Why didn't you listen to instructions!?!*
2k likes in 2 hours. Its so nice to see fellow nerds watching "educational" videos on RUclips. Not just watching other people playing GTA5, people eating food audibly, or bum fights. Thats what kids are watching these days right? 😆
Keep 'em coming Clive.
interesting its like a thermostat in your car.that pulls open to allow water to get to the radiator👍.
I've been blowing things up and putting DC where it's not supposed to be since childhood. It's part of the learning process
It's literally a car's coolant thermostat, with a heater on it.
Same thought here
It is like the thermostat in you car to keep it cool or warm they are rated in different degrees (for autos) depending on where you live- cool video
do not open the nuclear reactor. (Challenge accepted)
Why is my skin on fire? I don't feel too good.
depending on if there's fuel or not, could be either safe or lethal
Oh, there are some fools that have done just that with orphaned/lost Russian radioactive thermal generators (RTGs) . bellona.org/news/nuclear-issues/radioactive-waste-and-spent-nuclear-fuel/2015-11-foreign-funds-have-almost-entirely-rid-russia-of-orphaned-radioactive-power-generators
But it’s just 3 screws!
That 'wax motor' looks very similar to the wax 'stat' used in most vehicle thermostats, for the cooling system. I used to test them in a pan of boiling water, to see if they opened. Cheap enough to chuck away and replace anyway, but proved where the problem lay.
Reminds me of an old familiar saying, "why is it so". Good old Jules Sumnar Millar
I miss that old chap. Loved the way he said his name. "I'm professor Julius *_Sumner Miller."_*
@tim g Nice one, thanks! 👍
I had heard the phrase before from my Dad (used in typical "dad joke" fashion of course) and knew its origin, but I've never actually seen any of Sumner Miller's presentations. You've done me a great service this day.
God that brings back many happy childhood memories. "Why is it so?" - love it...
very interesting, so when the (wax engine) gets hot, the pin goes out, and opens the radiator valve (translated by Google Netherlands to English), it will work slower than a Danfoss RA 2000 top models with unique liquid vapor load. thanks again 🙏
I feel like this is a reupload but can tell from the scars on the bench and Clive's fingers that it's not.
Edit: Ah, AvE did one. ruclips.net/video/MiADday0mDA/видео.html
TIL about the existence of wax motors (linear actuators). Very good channel, Clive!
Darn it, I wanted to see the wax... :D
I'm tempted to cut a wax motor in half.
Maybe Dremel it open?
@@bigclivedotcom Yes please.
@@bigclivedotcom post it off to those water jet guys.
@@thebrowns5337 It's already been dremeled. Video out soon.
Wax motors are (maybe were) also used in car engine cooling, in the thermostatic valves that regulate the flow of coolant from the engine to the radiator - they start closed to ensure fast heating when the engine is started and then slowly allow flow, as normal running temperature is reached. The flow in the valve is variable, to act as a temperature regulator (if running fast in a cold weather the valve will close the necessary to maintain a reasonably constant coolant temperature).
"Give me one moment, I'm going to try and make this thing extend" - words that put fear into many a lady....
I've seen wax motors used in a bunch of applications. Fascinating concept.
That same wax motor is used in automobile thermostats. As the engine heats up the piston moves out pushing the valve plate upward allowing the coolant to flow. You don't need sub-second response times, very reliable, no external control.
Given that these valves are often used on heating systems, I wonder how much they're affected by the temperature of the valves they actuate. If it's strictly for hydronic (i.e. not steam) heating systems, the max temperature would be < 100°C, but it would still need to be able to passively cool the wax motor enough to relax and thus shut the valve. Must go find and look at the data sheet! Thanks for your lovely videos!
Once you had it opened, I recognized the wax motor, as it is nearly identical to the ones in automobile engine thermostats. An interesting application, that.
I work in UFH - we don't use these actuators but similar thermo electric ones, if the clips fail the spring in sides can launch everything off with some force!
Very interesting. I've got 5 of these on my underfloor heating and have been in place for 25 years and still working, I thought they were solenoid's. These work then the same as a car thermostat (wax stat).
25 years is pretty good for longevity for these units.
Did not know about wax motors....great explanation, fulfilled my learn something new every day!!
Motor = powered device that makes motion. Rotor = powered device that rotates.
Funny that the mechanical-automatic version of that valve is the same type of wax element, just inverted so the heat of the steam closes it.
Works the same way as a thermostat in a car. The heated wax causes a pintle to retract and allow coolant to circulate once the engine has warmed up.