Inside a bottle air vent and plumbing ramble. (No electronics whatsoever.)
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- Опубликовано: 24 июн 2019
- This video is mainly about an automatic air vent that allows air to escape from a closed loop water circulation system. It kinda went of at a tangent initially with some JG Speedfit fittings and the way they work.
Being used to working with copper pipe and compression fittings I'm having to muster up the courage to use these simpler push-together fittings.
Here's a video where Ultimate-Handyman tests a push on fitting to failure.
• Push fit fitting press...
If you enjoy these videos you can help support the channel with a dollar for coffee, cookies and random gadgets for disassembly at:-
www.bigclive.com/coffee.htm
This also keeps the channel independent of RUclips's advertising algorithms allowing it to be a bit more dangerous and naughty. 
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Thanks for sending viewers to my pressure testing video of the push fit fitting 😉
I installed a kitchen tap for my sister a few weeks back, and noticed that the “plumbers” that installed it had used plastic pipe- with NO INSERTS! I was shocked, so decided to test out plastic pipe on the pressure test bucket, without the inserts. I pumped the bucket up to the maximum (over 50 BAR) and not much happened. I expected the fitting to pop right off the pipe, but it didn’t! Obviously the test was done with cold water and I am in no way suggesting that inserts are not used! I would imagine that if hot water was used, you could get very wet- very quickly due to the expansion and contraction. You have a great channel and some good subscribers, congratulations! Greetings from Darwen, Lancashire.
I think most of the issues may be people forgetting to pop the inserts in or ramming rough ends through the O-rings and scratching them. I'm wondering how adversely the sudden hammer from washing machine solenoid valves will affect the joints.
@@bigclivedotcom I would imagine that would have a huge effect on the fitting, especially if the house had high water pressure to begin with. It might not fail immediately, but after a few hundred wash cycles there is a good chance that the fitting will let go of the pipe. Thanks for the reply 😉
@@bigclivedotcom Here in the 'states' we use PEX with various fittings (I like 'SharkBite' which is a brand name that doesn't use inserts at all).
I've always told myself that the 'give' in PEX piping probably absorbs the hammer shock better than copper. But maybe I'm just wishful thinking. My washing machine doesn't have any hammer arresters.
So long as it's held under good pressure I'm not sure it would be that bad with hot either - but not recommended. I had a leak in my shower which turned out to be a missing insert on the pipe from the valve to the outlet - obviously this bit of pipe is basically at atmospheric every time I turn the shower off.
The cowboy who installed that shower has created a lot of problems over the years for me 🤦
Electricity, Hidraulics, same thing, both involve angry magical beings, angry pixies and unyielding nymphs respectively
Good one!
PEX, the absolute best! It will last longer than we will! No more worry about copper degrading and pin hole leaks. What a refreshing video change. Hopefully you have more plumbing projects. Electrical and plumbing, is there anything better? Well, maybe eating!
Agreed but please no eating. We already have too many mukbang videos on this shit hole of a platform.
It'll be the rodents eating through the pipes you'll need to worry about.
The pipe may outlast us and ultimately add to the plastic waste we're drowning in, but the rubber seals inside won't. They degrade and have a lifespan, depending on manufacturer, up to 20 years, many much less. It was reported many years ago that the pin holes appearing in copper pipes into houses was caused by a combination of impurities in the copper reacting when the cold water pipe was used as the main earth for the house. I know from bitter experience living in a 50's built house 😠
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Yeah Pex is alright but copper will last a lot longer at least in Australia where we don’t have frost temperatures, besides pex lets diy dickheads to do their own plumbing then wonder why their house is flooding
I was told by a friend who was a builder that he'd worked on systems done in plastic, it's very important to provide a lot of support for the pipework.
That vent kind of reminds me in a way of a carburettor bowl, but working to let the air out rather than the fuel in...
...or a toilet cistern backwards?
both use the same principle.
Very like a bucket steam condensate trap still in use from early 1800s. Except they keep gas in and let liquid out. Just different lever arrangement for float and valve
Just thinking the same thing.
I first used Speedfit (or similar) plastic pipe and fittings about 10 years ago. A neighbour came round to help me move a radiator in the bedroom onto an adjacent wall. He recommended plastic but I was a bit dubious - especially as the floorboards were going back down afterwards, then a new carpet and I was worried about how secure these new kids on the block would be in the long term.
It certainly made the job easier though and we simply re-routed the existing pipework by drilling a 15mm hole in each joist and pushed the plastic pipe through. I even used plastic fittings for the final 90 degree elbows, but for the vertical feeds I did use copper. Or rather, I cut the existing copper pipe just beyond floor level. The ridiculously simple "push on" fittings couldn't be any good I thought - as I usually used solder ring fittings. But, the system was refilled, bled and there were no problems at all. I save a few hours overall. The only thing to remember is that you don't use plastic pipe or fittings within the first (or last) 1 metre from the boiler.
Glad to see you opted for the GF kitemarked version.
Beware of chinese clones, short mouldings, poor o rings and doggy steel clips that rust tend to make them fail often.
My Dad did his bathroom using cheap chinese clones, they failed after 3 months, and completely flooded his house overnight.
He had to rip up all the newly laid floors upstairs, completely redecorate the whole house while our family moved out for 6 weeks.
The insurance refused to pay out as the fittings were not up to code and were not fitted by a professional plumber.
For the sake of using kitemarked parts he paid out £1000s and then had to have all the piping and fittings replaced.
Beware of Chinese clones.
I'd never use a cheap copy in a situation like this.
Thanks for the air vent explanation. I've always wondered how they could let the air out but not spray water constantly.
As a retired marine engineer, I have always sworn by copper pipe, but seeing this has given me food for thought. Very interesting video (as always). Keep up the good works.
it's very easy to use and there are different makes, but have used the jg speedfit stuff, (available at screwfix in the uk) it is as simple as, cut pipe, use insert, insert into joint, that's it , only thing i have against it, it's more plastic in the world
also am a bit against using it for mains/drinking water but that's just me
As a sailor you without question have sworn, though the presence of copper pipe was only coincidentally “by” only due to frequency of curses in a large variety of locales. That’s the engineering part: a rule of thumb everywhere there’s water.
idiot stupid our Sharkbite system is also questionable for water, made of a supposedly leadfree brass alloy, but who really knows?
Really interesting to see inside the auto air vent . Fitted them but never tried to open it up. Believe the insert without external o rings are Used when plastic is used on brass/copper compression fittings with an olive . Used lots of John Guest pipe and fittings and found it good. Nice to use copper when on show though.
Had the very same in my house since around 2003 and haven't had an issue with it yet. I think if you observe the points you already made about protection of the O rings (no burrs etc) then it's fairly robust system. Great vids Clive, keep em coming...
Thank you! Saved me the trouble of taking the device apart to make sure you could leave the cap loose all the time VS opening it periodically to "bleed" the air out like I do with my radiators!
Under floor heating generally uses 16mm Pex-Al-Pex piping.Very reliable in my experience.
I love installing PEX, but the real question is how long it takes before it degrades and falls apart. Hopefully never, but...
@@jmonsted pex-al-pex has an inner core of aluminium coated inside & outside with pex material, it also comes pre-insulated & when bent it maintains the angle of bend unlike plain pex... 😎👍☘
@@peterfitzpatrick7032 Yep, i used it for a couple of runs where i needed insulation (mostly the home runs from the distribution manifold back to the boiler). It's even nicer to work with, but at a quite significant cost. PEX alone is still a god-send compared to metal piping (especially the cast iron i replaced).
Pex pipe tubing is the future. The key is making sure you have the proper connections or there will be leaks a few years later. The install is about 10 times faster than pvc. I haven't had any problems and don't expect any because I won't use cheaper connections and I always use tools that are made for commercial applications. When possible.
@@jmonsted This is why Poly-B was banned.
but i like the schematics.its the most valuable thing your channel offers, i look forward to learning from them
Go for it Clive.
We've had had problems with old copper pin hole leeks.
Called plumber in to replace all incoming mains water pipe work.
Have now got lots of pipe and fittings as seen in video. good job!!!
Keep the vids. coming Clive.
I ended up replacing the main incoming cold water line with plastic.
Keep them coming Clive, brilliant informative videos, I’ve watched loads of them.I’m electrically biased myself and reminds me of childhood taking things apart.
We had tons of pinholes in our nearly 40 year old copper pipes. We had the entire place repiped in PEX (cross linked polyethylene) and the plumber who did the work used steel ripped connections. So far so good.
Let us know in 40 years
@@DisabilityExams it is a lot cheaper than copper
I now use Hep2o PEX pipe and this has stainless steel inserts which grip inside the pipe and you can feel when they are seated if you twist them. Very reliable and much more frost proof than copper. Also easier to pull into place when replacing copper given the flexibility. They are known as shark bite fittings BTW not compression.
There was a huge bout around requiring ID in order to vote locally due to a disenfranchised barrier island population... yet the naturally-gerrymandered minority couldn’t even be considered as indigenous Americans because of their skin color which proved the fact that their entire history was less than prehistoric, and ergo. tiger’s stripes belong on a tiger... which impasse was solved post haste when, to address copper theft fatalities, ID became simultaneously-required for both international flight and exchange recycled metals for cash. So the same water which made them unite also broke them apart.
I used to live in an apartment with underground parking. There was a hose bib in my stall, I washed my car a few times before I realized the water changed to hot in the winter. Oopse :)
lmao, now that is funny....
Genius solution. The pressure differential will hold the two surfaces together sealing the system, as air accumulates inside the float drops down its tilting the valve surface enough so air begins escaping & closes again as the float rises. It takes far less effort to tilt the two apart than it would to pull the two surfaces apart squarely. Great design.
Surprisingly interesting learning about the plumbing items, the plastic pipe was just as fascinating as the main event.
I imagine the clever spring pivot thing allows the silicon stopper to find its own location on the outlet port. If it was a rigid hinge there's a chance the two would fail to align and water could ooze through.
These things have a lot of thought & experience put into their design resulting in quite elegant solutions.
That's probably it.
@@bigclivedotcom My guess is that the spring mounting allows a vacuum in the plumbing to suck in air. Not sure why they'd want that.
The stopper is silicone not silicon.
@@CoolerQ I estimate that the pivot type used exerts a stronger spring leverage against the sillycon seal. A fulcrum at the other end could allow weak forces against the lever to prove Archimedes was right.
@@CoolerQ These things are sometimes referred to as "pressure/vaccuum relief valves" so you're probably spot on, as the water empties out of the tank/ it cools something needs to replace what's gone out or the pressure is going to drop, and despite being much lower than the maximum expected positive pressure, tanks are in general gonna be much worse at withstanding negative pressure than positive ( positive pressure is stabilising, it wants to round out the tank. Negative pressure is destabilising - it's going to tend to amplify any asymmetry and buckle it inwards, causing additional strain on that area and leading to a sort of cascading failure).
funnilly enough the negative pressure need not be limited to a vaccum - in the worse case the pressure can drop substantially below vaccuum pressure. Water is not a gas, it sticks to things and can "pull" as well as "push", in low pressure it will boil and reduce that somewhat, but not necessarily enough to keep the pressure above 0. This would however probably only apply to tanks on an upper floor, and would be a bit contrived, but even vaccuum could be dangerous enough.
The negative pressure effect can be seen nicely with very tall trees, like redwoods - the tubes that carry the water are very smooth and there's nothing for the water to nucleate off to start boiling and thus the water can be put under the ~negative ten atmospheres of pressure required to pull water all the way to the top.
It's also worth noting the air valve will allow air to be drawn into the system when it's being drained down and helps avoid vacuum locks
lawson jones I’ve known installations that had a connection where they would connect a compressed air source to blow out any remaining liquid when draining the system. These were systems in cabins that were only used infrequently during the freezing season so were drained to prevent pipe bursts.
Having a way to block air venting was important to force the air to exit where desired.
@@thomasbland6428 When I decommissioned my old heating system, I sucked the water out with a wet n dry vacuum cleaner.
It is when the float drops that the valve opens. It will drop if air is trapped at the top of the cup, displacing the water. As the air is expelled, the cup fully fills with water again and the float will rise, closing off the air escape route. No more knock in the heat register. Yea!! Also, real plumbers use copper pipe and lead free solder to build water lines. Love this channel!
Reminds me of conversations I'd have with my grandad, he was a plumber all his life. I never had a clue what he was talking about back then. Would love to see more of these videos
Little Daniel McNamara this that these those. Most men are plumbers their entire lives🏣⛲️, suffer testosterone.
Here in germany pex is basically the new standard. Though in the non diy market usually its pressed fittings which are smaller and thought of more reliable. Works with Copper as well.
10:36 in case of a clogged up valve one could take the top nipple screw cap off and push down on the valve by sticking a thin screwdriver through the bleeder hole. That way you have a quick fix with out having to depressurize the whole system
I have used this plastic push fit stuff quite a bit. I had my doubts for sure at first, but after a few tests i was pleasantly surprised that it works !!
Alexpmgr8 K3 after only three tries, it no longer blew itself off the ends of the pipe.
I've been wondering how these vents work for years! Now I know! Thanks Clive!
we use a system like this , french made, transair piping for compressed air , its extruded aluminum and has a WP of 236 psi but tested to twice that
Hey thats pretty good. Id imagine oilers really work wall across those aluminum lines
Great video as always Clive. Did you know that on the plastic pipe fitting, if you continue to unscrew it past the the resistance point the whole thing disassembles. This makes it easier to remove the pipe insert instead of using pliers. Cheers Dave
You done it again! I just had one of those air vents replaced on my 15 year old condensing combi boiler! lol Plumber said I didnt need to buy it as all that was wrong was the pump had gone bad, but I bought the pump, vent and PRV anyway just because they were available and my boiler is like new again, yay! :D
Have used JG speedfit for years, works really well and so simple to install compared to copper
Not sure why I watch this. Perhaps it's just nice to hear a fellow Scotsman talk.
Thanks for the video, Clive.
We used air eliminators on pumps running liquids with high amounts of dissolved gas.
Different design, basically just a metal ball that floats.
Constant PITA.
I redid all the plumbing in my house that was built in 1913. It didn't have plumbing until quite a few years after it was built. The original water supply pipes were galvanized metal pipes that were almost plugged with rust build up. The drain pipe from the bathroom sink and bathtub were made of lead. They tied in to the main drain pipe that was 4 inch cast iron pipe. I replaced all the drain pipes from the vent stack on the roof all the way to the basement with PVC pipe I did have to use a air valve on the drain pipe from the bathroom sink in the attic as I couldn't connect it to the vent stack.There's a 3/4" copper pipe that comes from the water meter across the basement ceiling into the utility room from there, I used CPVC (tan colored) pipe with a SharkBite connector to connect to the copper pipe. All the water supply lines to the washing machine, the kitchen and bathroom are CPVC pipes connected with fittings and after primed cemented with the proper cement glue for water pipes. I did save myself some money by doing it all myself as I can't imagine how much it would have cost to hire a professional.
I used to work for a company called Wavin. We did a push fit system called Hep2o. It was one of our most popular systems, so I guess it works. I know Wavin testing was quite thorough. When I first started there I was quite surprised how much plumbing supplies went out. 60 to 70 trucks a day when I left. Makes you realise how many houses are being built every day.
Worked in the business for years, maintaining many MOD sites, copper all the way. In my experience, plastic compression fitting will give in at random times, as an example of 500 new accommodation spaces built , there were at least 100 failures of push fits within the first year, the rate of failure of soldered copper? 0, none. Plastic is a cheap, easy and less skilful way of piping up, once you use a push fit and remove the o ring from the copper it's useless and will inevitably fail.
Just to add, the push fittings were always used by outside contractors to keep their bids cheap as they were not required to maintain the new buildings, they don't care about the long term. Us maintenance guys always used copper knowing we wouldn't need to "re re-fix" a repair. We spent literally thousands of man hours "maintaining" these new systems to get them to work properly. If I had any choice I would always start with soldered copper, followed by compression fit copper, any poly pipe with push fit would be the last choice in my own personal property.
Ferrules are mandatory when installing poly pipe on any MOD site, just sayin. You can avoid pinholes by cleaning flux off and actually bothering to flush pipework out only no one seems to want to pay for that so you get pinholes. Only outlets that require flushing are "little use" outlets and those need to be flushed whether they are copper or not according to l8 regulations. Oh and water fountains can't be used anyway, l8 legislation again. Oh and the 70s you say, how modern, part of my work includes a 12th century priory, the most modern buildings, apart from refurbishment of new build (12 accommodation blocks built by the lowest bidder that started cracking up within a year) were the sixties, with quite a large number dating back to WW2 or further, we never had or have as much trouble with the copper as with poly, just never have. The poly though lol, one split joint caused £100,000 worth of damage and resulted in three floors of the building that was 18 months old being stripped back to bare frame and being rebuilt.
We used push fit fittings for compressed air at the factory and found them reliable
Well they’re normally rated at 6 bar so you’re pushing your luck … and a failure on a large compressed air system can have nasty consequences!
Hi Clive, I was watching your video on bottle air vents, and a couple of things came to mind. Like you, I've always sworn by copper as compared to the new untested plastic pipes. But two winters ago, they had some prolonged periods of below freezing weather in wales. And as my son and his wife have a wooden holiday chalet in wales, when they made their first visit after the winter, and they turned the water back on, there were at least ten different bursts in the pipework. But when I went with them to do the repairs, we found that half of the chalet (I'm guessing it must have been an extension built on the original), was piped for both hot and cold water with plastic pipe of the type you were describing. And whereas the sections of copper in all other areas of the chalet have ruptured, there wasn't one leak, nor forced joint, nor split in any of the plastic system. So maybe, plastic is the way to go. And one more thing, if I'm not boring you; your pinholes in your copper pipe. A thought that struck me, was that I've always cleaned the ends of the pipes with wire-wool. I assume you're familiar with this stuff. And whereas it doesn't leave significant grooves or scoring, tiny little fragments of the iron strands can and do flake off. Could those pin-holes have been caused by such little fragments floating down the pipe and then settling? And over time, some kind of dissimilar metal electrolytic reaction has eaten its way through.
Anyway, these are just my thoughts, and I thought it was about time I thanked you for your instructional videos; keep up the good work.
Hi Clive interesting video -Here in the US we have something very similar to those fittings they are called "Shark Bites" (I think) and like you I am from the "old" school copper era (I am 55) and I had to do some plumbing repair awhile ago when I seen them and thought the same thing as you did "no way --this will leak like a sieve" but I tried them anyway and was blown away how easy and simple they were to install and use AND what would have easily taken me a 1/2 day to re-plumb my bathroom using copper- having to solder and make sure the length is spot on, clean and every little thing else that has to be perfect when using copper so it doesn't leak was finished just over an hours time! I could not believe it' That was 5yrs ago and still not one problem with that type of hook up I wont use anything else now if I have plumbing work to do it is just that easy and simple to use for BOTH Copper AND Plastic pipe
The popular American brand is " shark bite " expensive but worth while for repair work or joining dissimilar materials .
And they're not technically rated for air pressure, but I've seen them successfully hold a 190PSI/13bar for years just dandy.
Sharkbite* worthwhile *
@@HighestRank auto correct
Properly installed good quality copper pipe and fittings will last indefinitely. O-rings are not forever and will eventually fail in 20-60 years. Contractors love plastic, not because it's better or cheaper but because it takes a fraction of the time to install and requires far less skill.
Totally agree. With a borrowed pvc pipe heater, I was able to install a new piping system that stretched from the main source & to the my house. Tho, I got professional help for rest of piping work lol.
Faster and easier wins. But for my stuff I still solder. I hope I'm wrong, but if o rings fail in vehicles and devices after years of heat cycles, I can imagine the same thing happening here in 20 - 40 years. The crimp copper fittings are even being used in AC installs. I'll stick to solder, and require it if I get work done that I don't DIY. My brother got a new boiler installed in his house and they used about 50 to 60 of those viega copper crimp fittings, sorta defeats the purpose of copper to me.
Well...copper freezes & splits. copper sourced from china often has contamination which corrodes & springs leaks. copper is expensive. we never use copper anymore.
Around here copper is code for all commercial and rental properties. IE: The government says its better.
volvo09
Lol I read AC as Alternating Current in stead of air conditioning.
Interesting video. The PEX ia fairly common in the US now - in my older house which is all copper, some recent repairs to leaking copper pipes has been done with PEX and one line specifically feeds the laundry (washer) which is used frequently and there has been no issues - it's great stuff and easy to work with compared to copper. That bottle air vent looks neat - need one of those for my heating system - it's a water loop from an oil furnace and needs routine "bleeding". Thanks as always for great videos!
I'm not interested in plumbing, but I found the pipes and attachments fascinating! Rather clever.
Hmmm. We got a plastic piping called "polycopper". It's a pinkish/red direct replacement for copper. It also uses the same brass ring ferrules.
They call it copper because they know copper is better and this way they can mark up the plastic and charge copper-like prices for it.
You can use the ferrule system for plastic too, just use a brass or copper insert in the pipe. I don't generally recommend that solution, but if done properly it works alright.
♫ Zu klein,
Zu groß,
Every size will fit this hose,
Ram it in,
Tighten up,
Turn it out,
Bratwurst im dein sauerkraut!♫
*sets fire to pyrotechnic angel wings*
... see? Rammstein songs are half plumbing.
Crimson Halo 🤣
And there I thought Rammstein music was just for the USAF airbase!?
An unsuspected place to find the video I need. Thank you. I installed one of these on my house and I was dying to look inside but the top of mine simply would not unscrew. I was blowing through it trying to imagine the inside looking like the float bowl of a carburetor and not understanding the reactions I was getting until now.
I loved the self priming siphon video as well! Do make more of these!
Bee using the JG speedfit for years now, never had a problem and found it more reliable than copper.
Those air eliminators are the bane of my existence. Great when they work.
Can you elaborate on how they fail?
Sometimes they ooze minute quantities of water and over time salts from the water accumulate at the discharge port, and when for whatever reason you empty the piping for maintenance or anything and they don't close properly again
Always fit them with an isolating valve so they can be replaced without draining down the system.
@@Berkeloid0 We have old brass ones and they tend to get chemical buildups in them or just plain corrosion. I remember changing one and it let out a lot of air so the old one was doing nothing.
Daniel Dulu no, really you changed one out which had already gone bad? Certainly you must increase the frequency of replacement to catch these things before they fail completely. No sense in changing bad components.
Clive it’s Always a Joy to hear the tone of your voice and the look of your videos 👍 I recently review a Freezing machine that Uses Electricity to freeze pipes have been using it for 10 years I’m sure it would be right up your street 👍 Just lag all your pipework mate especially where you live all the best.
The original cold water feed under the house isn't lagged. Fortunately it's never had an issue with freezing. The Isle of Man rarely has a significant cold snap.
bigclivedotcom One thing the little furry creatures love the plastic stuff to chew ..You could always invent an electrical deterrent ! All the best matey 👍
Hi Clive, I first used plastic (Bartol Acorn) around 25 years ago. And it's even better now. I wouldn't pull either plastic or copper out of a fitting with the intention of putting the same pipe end and insert back. If you need to disconnect you can unscrew the 'nut' completely to take out pipe. and all fittings as one without rink of damaging pipe and o rings on the grab ring.
Hope this is helpful. Great videos, Will
use plastic everyday, maybe 2 leaks in last 10 years...make sure pipe is clipped to joists etc well
Bod Cole - Installed ten compression fitting shutoffs on copper pipe for 40 years with no leaks.
If you can, you should take a look at the spirotech deaerator that are getting very common here in Belgium. They seem a bit more advanced and mysterious.
I also watch the ultimate handyman, like his accent! :)
You either love, or hate the accent- I have plenty of haters! Thanks for watching the videos and commenting ;-)
@@ultimatehandyman
Haha! The accent is naturally not the only reason I watch your informative, honest and well put together videos :)
I do it to impress friend and enemy with 'my' knowledge about tools and DIY'ing :D
Finished quite a few projects that have benefitted greatly from your advice.
So thanks a lot for all your effort!!
I'm glad that the videos help ;-)
When I get a comment from someone like you, it always reassures me that there are good people on RUclips 👍
Thanks again for watching, and commenting 😉
I love those things!
@@ultimatehandyman That tears it, now I'm intrigued about the accent
Any air that gathers in the chamber will be at the same pressure as the water, and since the float doesn't weigh much, the hinge point is located to give maximum leverage to open the port. Air will leak through the tiniest hole so it doesn't need much anyway.
The barrier PEX (which stands for PolyEthylene cross-linked) is for gas diffusion. The plastic is actually permeable to oxygen, so to keep oxygen from getting in and dissolving in the water (which promotes corrosion) they add the barrier layer which is not permeable but also not as strong.
Those push fittings are amazing, by the way. Almost magic. I've used them in my own home and one repair has been in service for several years now on the HOT water pipe with no issues!
Ive used poly plum for the past 10 years. completely rebuilt the water system in my old bungalow. central heating, main the lot. very reliable. easy to do. I used copper to present to the radiators and poly plum feeding them. Good good stuff when used properly
Robert Wolf
main the oars.
PEX means polyethylene cross-linked
And it's fantastic.
Hi Clive, I have used pushfit for years and never had a problem with it. The other good thing about plastic pipes is, as they come in coils you can have a long run with no joins and it can be run through joists etc just like a cable(ok a thick cable)
Very interesting. I've never seen that before and I've done a lot of PVC plumbing before. Here in the US, PEX is fairly standard for home plumbing now, which is very flexible plastic tubing making it great for routing hot and cold water lines in a home.
I've been using plastic plumbing since 1994. Hep2O in the early days and mostly JG speedfit in recent times as it's more widely available. Not had any issues with failures. I do still like a bit of copper sometimes, e.g. for very high temperature stuff like solar thermal, but plastic is so much easier most of the time. It's funny to see someone in 2019 who's never tried it before.
Plastic pipe is cross-linked poly-ethylene. Proper ways of connecting it is using "crimp" style fittings or expanding ring fittings (Wirsbo) or "quick and easy" method. Push fit fittings such as "shark-bite" or O-ring fittings should be considered temporary methods. PEX piping will out-last copper if using proper joining methods. Copper is not better.
After 2 different plumbers used PEX (and one used a SharkBite connector) - I became a fan. Note: My parents had some PEX installed, and theirs had an unpleasant taste. My PEX does not. Seems to be easier to use than PVC/CPVC.
Unless you're talking about its ability to kill off MRSA, in which case COPPER FTW!! :D
It will also lower water pressure, due to friction in the joints, due to the ID of the joint being significantly small... I feel bad for the lady we might have to do a repipe for. Her water pressure is so low the valve on her kitchen faucet doesn't want to stay open, due to it using pressure to stay open.
Joe Dugas Hollyhocks ! these fittings last extremely well, just use the mf’s own fittings and you’re good, I have never seen “crimp”style fittings in the UK.
those "plasticky plumbing things" have only been around for a limited time. so you cannot make a statement that they are outlasting copper.
Have faith in the speed fit, but what I didn't tell you when I recommended it earlier is that you absolutely must install a water hammer arrestor in the system. Otherwise the water hammer over the years will have a tendency to overly stress the o rings causing failure.
I was wondering what effect water hammer would have. Especially with a washing machine that uses solenoid valves.
@@bigclivedotcom Machinery like that makes me wonder why the heck they don't have a built-in water hammer arrestor/preventing device built in knowing full well that it's a device that does it. Doubly so knowing how cost optimized some of the other parts in there are. Or heck, just use a slower closing valve. Maybe use a pressure bypass valve for pressure spikes when the valve closes that lets enough water through into the machine to clip the spike down below plumbing-stressing levels.
I did not know that problem exists. I am used to open and close faucets in a rapid manner to save time. If you work with power transistors, a quick switch time is a good thing. But the pipework of where I live is metal, I think.
Isn’t water hammer caused at least in part by the lack of give in water and copper? If so and if as BC says this piping has some ability to stretch (which is why it can survive freezing) then it may not hammer.
@@michaelfisher9671 unfortunately it still hammers, albeit to a lesser extent. However, it still has enough force to blow an o ring.
I've used plastic piping in both my parents house and my own with great success. I've used it on HW and CH in both 15 and 22mm, the only thing you have to use copper for in CH is the first metre from the boiler. It's great stuff because it's so easy to make connections in confined spaces, the pipe can be bent so you can feed it through tight gaps such as joists or around obsticles. It's also impact resistant, won't freeze and split like copper and has better thermal insulation even without lagging.
I've mostly used the Hepworth Hep2O brand which I have found to be very robust, professional and reliable. Their original fittings had the grab ring after the O-ring seal so there was no danger of scratches from the grab ring compromising the seal. This fittings could be taken apart but you had to unscrew them. Their new stuff is more like the Speedfit with the grab ring before the O-ring. That said I have demounted and remade without any issues. The Hep2O fittings need a plastic tool to press a pair of recessed pins in to release the grab ring which is perminently trapped in the fitting so no issues with it dropping out like you had. Also no danger of accidentally releasing the grab ring. That was actually the only time I've had a failure (well my dad actually), he thinks he may have knocked the Speedfit release ring and it came apart. The pipe as you said is multi layered with the dark layer acting as a gas barrier for CH systems.
It's great stuff, go for it, you'll love it. That said I also quite like doing copper solder joints and bending, and managed to do some really quite impressive multiple bends, in different axes, on some 28mm gravity feed piping.
This is why I love Big Clive...
Known in Scotland as a ‘snifter’ valve. Same word for a wee dram...
In Norway we use "pipe in pipe" systems now. Basically a corrugated pipe is installed with a plastic water line inside it going back to a main water cabinet. Essentially the plumbing industry is doing the same thing as the electricians here. So if you have a leak it'll leak back to the water cabinet which should be installed in a water safe room and spill out on the floor there instead of all over your house. That is if your leak is in the walls. Anything on the outside is still liable to cause damage, but that's why you're also required to install water sensors and an electric shut off valve system under the kitchen furniture etc. Just like you're required to install a temperature sensor shut off thingy over the stove (Which sucks btw, never work like they should and are pointless for induction stove tops IMO!)
www.johnguest.com/speedfit/product/pipe/pipe-in-pipe/
It's a nice system IMO.
It looks like the pipe you're showing here is one half of the John Guest pipe-in-pipe system.
EDIT: Basically it means you have one run of water to the kitchen faucet, one run to the dishwasher, one run to the toilet, one run to the shower and so on. So it does require some more pipes to be installed, but it's really good for preventing water damage.
How do you ensure you always have a clear and continuous fall of the pipes to the water cabinet, often they have to be run horizontally over quite long distances.
Most homes in the UK have central heating with radiators, there's no way you're going to run a flow and return to every radiator?
@@edcooper2396 the outer pipe is sealed at the end so it will fill until the water returns to the cabinet and heating and cooling is sadly exempt from the requirement of the replacement and "water damage safe" rules
Sounds for a great place to get a drink- for roaches.
We use connectors like this for the caravans at work, me being adept at unscrewing the connectors when I need a water hook up (generally for the jet wash)
But I will categorically say that they most definitely
do split when they freeze, something that we found out last year when we had a couple of sudden cold snaps, caused absolute havoc!
Worked with this exact type of pipe and fittings and can say from experience it does not like ice at all, it’s used a lot on static caravans and even with insulation can still burst the pipe or blow the fittings apart, also had many occasions where the pipe had blown out of the fittings even though the water pressure wasn’t too high.
One of the nice things about plastic is it tastes nice when the mice eat it.
You tasted it with the mice or after they've eaten it? If it's after then it could be just mouse pee giving the nice taste..
I'm confused, do the _mice_ taste better or do they _like_ it better?
You'd think the plastic drainage pipes would have been eaten by rats and mice if the plastic was desirable.
bigclivedotcom - in my experience of mice and rats “eating” PVC, plastic and rubber cable, it’s generally to make a route past an obstruction, or because (in the case of mice) because they are “nesting”.
They would either like the texture or some flavor which has soaked into the resin, and if both, could chew every bit of it just for the sheer hellofit. Tooth wear is minimal and coincidental, not a goal but an instinct which became necessarily habitual.
the thing with plastic pipes is what will it be like in 20 years will i have to replace it again? copper might be harder to install but at least it is tried and tested so you know it will out last us
I had a plastic water main supply. It lasted 40 years, and then cracked under the front lawn. The plumber said they don't use that anymore, and replaced it with a single length (65 feet) of copper from a large diameter coil, pulling it through from the basement.
Did you have water gushing out of the lawn.
But the whole point is that Clive's copper pipe did NOT last - it was perforated. Here in Greece we have used plastic pipe since the time of the Romans. (Well, almost.)
@@simontay4851 Yes, that was our clue. 😂
@@manolisgledsodakis873 That was likely an improperly installed /damaged pipe. Copper also has the advantage of being antimicrobial, but it is more expensive than plastic.
I have used plastic pipes for about 20 years and with everything it's all about the installation of the pipe there are three rules for plastic. 1. Be very clean and keep dust out. 2. Copper joints only use a wheel cutter and 3 KEEP EVERYTHING CLEAN. The failures I have seen is mostly about dust from building sites and the only other thing is people not pushing the fitting in far enough usually by not cutting on the marks. ALWAYS ALWAYS put inhibitors in your central heating as the Aav you showed will leak as it's the water pressure that makes the final seal and the smallest amount of dirt will make it leak. Finally the air vent you discribed as a wetting o ring would not be put on a sealed system and are for open vented systems.
Love all your vids as I am from the "other side" as a heating engineer that dabels in electronics.
You are a brilliant teacher!
Your old pipe was cavitated beause of shoddy installation. When you don't deburr the ends properly that can happen because of turbulence caused by the burrs.
Could you describe what kind shoddy installation can cause random pin holes through corrosion? How would cavitation occur in the middle of a run of pipe?
@@ferrumignis There are videos here on youtube explaining it much better than I could.
@@ferrumignis I think it's about the burrs creating condensation nuclei and when the bubbles burst they cause a sonic boom which create microscopic cavities in the pipe which are then eroded by the flow. Does that sound sufficiently like a 12yearold explaining something the heard about on lunch break?
Expanding Horizons!! non-electrical tear-downs. the mind boggles, the opportunities myriad, a whole new Universe is opening up.
it was the siphon pump on the bubble blower wasn't it. yeah, me too.
Yes Clive. I’ve used Speedfit plastic fittings and pipe to add an extra valve to a heating system (the original suffered from gravity self circulation so even when the heating was not on, the radiators on the first floor would still get hot). This was after we had two extra radiators installed by plumbers and I saw them use the Speedfit plastic fittings and pipes (they were not the cause of the circulation problem, that existed beforehand). They loved this Speedfit system. So much quicker and less messing about. They did use copper pipe where the pipes were exposed as they ran along the skirting boards. All this was over 20 years ago now.
Have since moved house (a much newer house), and although no major problems, have had to tighten some of the compression fittings due to small leakages (all copper pipework as far as I can see). But I keep some Speedfit plastic fittings, the straight joins, in case I ever need to carry out a quick repair.
Worked in animatronics, can confirm, compression fittings WHEN APPLIED PROPERLY are perfectly safe and reliable. However the margin for error is a fair bit narrower than soldering metal tubes together. Buy some bits and bobs to play with, put em under mains pressure. Youll figure out real quick if you did it wrong or not. Once you have the technique down,. go for the big job ;)
The technical term for that olive is a ferrule.
No, olive is the correct technical term on this side of the atlantic.
@@TheChipmunk2008 oh. I've heard ppl in the states call it an olive as well. Didn't know it was the official term there.
@@DoRC indeed, two countries separated by a common language is often scarily true. It's even worse with many other words
@@TheChipmunk2008 olive
Is there a medical version to prevent liquid seepage?
Yes, it is called an elastic band.
@@bulwinkle Thanks. Do I make it into a ball before inserting it?
@@lostjohnny9000 or loop it tightly around the outside.
@@bulwinkle My friend says his bum hole is an 'inny' not an 'outy'.
@@lostjohnny9000 ah!
Clive, your copper pipe developed pin holes because of iron in the water.
We use PEX and PVC pipes here in the USA now. Pex uses either "Sharkbite" fittings similar to your's or Brass or plastic couplers with stainless steel crimp rings. PVC is usually glued.
I had used PEX and sharkbite fittings to run a pipe out to the garden with a tap on the end. Unfortunately I forgot to drain the pipe for the winter and the water froze. All it did was push the PEX out of the sharkbite and left deep scores on the pipe LOL. All I did was cut an inch off the pipe and pushed it back in.
Use it daily in my line of work (plumber). But not the quick fittings, we use the multi layer pipes but with press fittings pressed with hydraulic press machine.
yes but plastic pipe connectors are much MUCH bigger compared to soldered copper joints
The ones he's using is massive. I prefer the "sharkbite" brand ones which are quite a bit more compact. Expensive though.
and a lot more restrictive with those inserts installed!
And any copper off-cuts are fully recyclable. plastic pipe probably isn't. Hot water might soften/melt plastic pipe. Soldered copper looks nicer. Lots of advantages to copper.
@@simontay4851 Almost all plastics are very easily recyclable. Piping plastics are not your "cheap chinese toy" variety, heat is not a problem, and if REALLY hot water is expected, there are plastic pipes that are engineered to resist temperatures well over 100 ºC . Soldered copper does looks nicer... but who cares? It's inside a freaking wall. The only advantages of copper are that it tends to be cheaper overall because good plastic joints are expensive, and space, copper is a lot more compact.
@@simontay4851 On the hot water aspect, boiler installations require copper for the first metre away from the boiler for this very reason - who wants a melty-saggy pipe? Copper also requires fewer clips to avoid it sagging and straining against the fittings.
Like you I prefer soldered end-feed copper, plastic O-ring based systems (I favour Hep2O if I must use one) are really quick and easy though, especially for amateurs. I don't think plastic is approved for domestic gas either - I know my gas main is plastic right up to the boundary line, then iron to the meter, then soldered copper from the meter to the appliances.
we replaced lots of plastic with copper... because of mice nibbling heating pipes.
get a cat?
idiot stupid
cats can’t get behind cabinets and go everywhere, stupid idiot.
Ive used the pushfit stuff. Its fine as long as pushed in properly and make sure the cut end has no sharp edges or the o ring is pushed out of place. I used it when i worked in property maintenance. It was ‘hep’ but is just the same as the b&q stuff. Quick and easy
I have been using those style of push-to-connect for about 10 years now and haven't had any issue. I have been doing FIRST FRC Robotics for 10 years now and the Pneumatics uses those connects for 1/4" polyurethane tubes. The fittings we use are Parker W68PLP-4-2, 364PLP-4,
and W369PLP-4-2 and the pressure reaches 125 psi. I have never seen one fail and we reuse these fittings every year. Needless to say, they are excellent push-to-connect that is easy to install and removal is just as easy.
Those things last until the o-ring inside degrades and wears out. So, you have no idea how long they'll last, because you have no idea if the manufacturer decided to cut expenses and use cheaper material, or they used good stuff that would last as long as the pipes.
You can be sure that it was made with quality materials if it’s a WRATS approved product as they are the regulatory body that tests the product and if it meets their standards for a product to be sold with the WRATS label on it.
Most manufacturers exprcssely recommend you use WRATS approved fittings on there product because of the guaranteed quality of the product.
The O-rings will be fine for a long time if used on new plumbing but not as long on old plumbing.
it will depend upon the amount of crap that running around the system but even in really dirty old systems the O-rings should outlast your emersion heater and hot water storage cylinders by many years.
They should last longer on the cold water pipes as that water isn’t left to stagnate for long as it’s always used.
They will also last longer in areas with softer water as a pose to in areas with hard water.
The lime scale tends to build up around the O-rings and degrade them over time.
The WRATS products do cost more than non approved products but your paying for the quality and longevity of the product.
In my own opinion I think that the whole push fit plastic plumbing system is a better system than the copper one even the push fit copper systems.
Even if the O-ring did perish or become unusable I do believe you can buy replacement O-rings instead of replacing the fitting.
You get a 50 year warranty on the JG Speedfit fittings Clive is showing in this video.
That's the main reason I don't really trust the plastic piping. The pipe itself seems very reliable, but o-ring seals invariably degrade over time.
@@arcadeuk Lol - might as well be a 100,000 year warranty. Come 50 years time you think that company will still be around and not been bought out and changed name half a dozen times? A warranty much beyond 10 years on anything don't mean jack shit.
@@blower1 Why so much unwarranted hostility to JG Speedfit? They (John Guest, a British company) have already been around for nearly 60 years. They've managed to avoid changing their name half a dozen times so far .......
I distrust plastic as well, i cant see plastic lasting like the copper pipes in your house.
I live in a house from 1948, all but one copper pipe is original, 71 year old copper pipes.
Same I trust copper, traditional brazing and mechanical junctions are made to last.
Im in 50 yo copper piped house. no problems.
Agreed I don’t trust these o-ring seals to last.
Even slightly acidic water causes pitting in copper pipes, with the system often not making it to even 10 years. I much rather have a home-run manifold PEX system. With that you only have worry about leaks at the manifold and endpoint with no junctions to leak.
Many many years ago one of the manufacturers of plastic plumbing products had a go at producing a hot water cylinder to replace the copper ones, anyway after a while these tanks became wet on the outside, the manufacturers claimed it was condensation even though they were correctly lagged. It later became apparent after some dramatic failures that the plastic was actually crazing and leaking! For me, plastic pipe has its place, I like it for long continuous runs under floors avoiding the need for joins, also unlike copper pipe it doesn’t rot when it contact with a concrete floor, although I’m still not keen in seeing it on hot water and heating systems as I have flashbacks of those hot water cylinders!
As an emergency plumber I rely on these fittings quite a lot to get me out of problems when a leak occurs. In the past that used to take me awhile even with compression fittings to get everything lined up and prepared but with these fittings I can replace the section of pipe within 2 or 3 minutes. Like yourself it took me a while to get to trust them but once you do you never look back. Incidentally it's worth mentioning that the only failed fitting was when there wasn't enough space to push the pipes together so I pulled the pipe towards me to create the gap, however not pushing the fitting together straight pushed out the O ring. They are rather ugly and I tend to use them out of sight. You can also get a similar fitting in copper, but they will not come apart.
I have never seen a rubber seal last more than 25 years without developing a slight leak, on anything ever. Just saying
the o-rings around the base of the injectors in my car built in 1984 are still holding up just fine, pretty sure they've seen more abuse than the ones in this video ever will
@Dave Micolichek valve cover gaskets develop leaks, oil pan gaskets develop leaks, and if you read the fine print, most of today's "quick" plumbing products, like every pex product I've ever seen, says right on the package, rated for 25 years
@@brendanrandle first off, your intake is usually under vacuum so you wouldn't know even if they were, secondly there is zero pressure there, if anything considering the vacuum, it's negative pressure
@@EitriBrokkrthe top o-rings don't leak either and they're the only thing between 40-45psi(gauge) fuel and atmospheric pressure
may not be rubber though
"no electronics whatsoever" nonsense, electricity is a sort of water, they taught me that at the technical college!
I didn’t know magic pixies could swim
pyromen321 angry* pixies can swim, though it’s those unyielding nymphs which are found in pipes.
MrGoatflakes they said that water flows, is stored in tank circuits, both run in currents but nothing so similar as being a ‘sort of water’, unless you attended Hogwarts.
Interesting and subtle device. The push fit plastic is popular. Never used it myself but then I do like breaking out the small blow torch to do soldering of pipe with.
I don't get to do much plumbing other than the occasional DIY job around the house, but I have to say that I've found plastic pipe and fittings to be extremely reliable. PEX pipe in particular is extremely good and resistant to almost everything you can throw at it. The only downside is stuff like earth bonding when you have a mix of plastic and copper pipes running around
Dont use the push on fittings on chrome pipe it wont grip
Copper is softer I guess.
6581punk yes- chrome is really very hard, they use it for lining gun barrels. The teeth won’t touch it.
Where you have to use them on chrome pipe you can carefully file/flake away the chrome plating and then use the pushfit as normal. I've had to do it a few times over the years and works just fine. Just don't be too aggressive with the file as you need to keep the pipe unmarked. The same goes for soldering that kind of pipe.
Maybe this space is the place to apply steel wool.
Yeah, the plastic will last, it will be around for 10,000 years. XD
longer than the nuclear waste is radioactive
It will be brittle, broken and cracked, and the orings will have dry rotted and split years before, but it will still be around...
10,000 years is a long time for a water leak
never heard of plastic eating microbes ?? clearly not so your fair mongering doesn't hold
photo degrades
I always crimp my pex connections but this system looks great if you only have a few connections to make. In Canada Sharkbite fittings are the most popular. Always wondered how those auto vents worked, I can hear them vent if air gets into the system, I have them at the highest point in house. The only time my system seems to vent is between pressure changes. Great video.
Also there are a few types of pex pipe, the standard stuff lets a small amount of oxygen into the lines, not a big deal for potable water use. Then there are types used for heating that do not let oxygen get into the heating loop, using the standard stuff in a heating system could cause the boiler guts to corrode over time.
I think it is fine and I used it on my current house but in retrospect I would only use it for long unjointed underfloor runs because I did have issues with some connectors whereas I never had issues with past copper systems I have installed. Brilliant for quick emergency repairs. For sheer craft beauty though really it is hard to beat well executed copper system. I can also confirm that I have encountered copper pipe with linear extrusion contamination defects that have then leaked very soon after fitting
"playing with something that can flood your house out."
Stop bragging.
copper pipe is better than plastic because copper keeps the water cooler and sec its antibacterial !!!
The first place I saw compression fittings like the one you showed was for gas fittings. All you had to do was make sure the Teflon tubing end was clean and right angle, and then press the tubing in until it bottomed out. It could withstand at least 150 psi of nitrogen. I’ve since helped install a water heater using fittings of this type with copper tubing, and everything has been trouble free. It’s a hell of a lot easier than sweating pipes!
This fitting system reminds me of pneumatic fittings, they work the same way (except for the twisting part), and they don't use any o-rings just metal fittings and 6mm pvc pipe, and they are usually spec'ed for 8-20bar (115-290 psi) and doesn't leak any air.
They exploit the pressure to hold the pipe in place, the higher the pressure, the harder the fittings grip the pvc pipe.
I have tested these pneumatic fittings up to 50 bar (725 psi) and they kept working (although a little scary at these pressures)
And they are super easy to work with, just snip the pipe with scissors and plug them into the fittings. and disassembly is just as easy, very nice system! Wouldn't doubt the reliability for low pressure water when they work so reliably for high pressure air.