@1:34 "Many of these passengers had booked this trip so that they could experience the breath taking view of the Himalayan mountains first hand." That's eerie foreshadowing.
Captain's last thought: "I've had to do all this incompetent nincompoop's work for him and then he starts pestering me with stupid questions, and now he's getting me _killed._ . No wonder they never made him a captain."
The first officer was also heard saying "Turn, turn. Let's go back!." To which, the captain replied "False reading! False reading!". The last thing the voice recorder picked up was "Oh, no...".
This incident shows us the importance of situational awareness and sharing of workload between the pilots. Even if the first officer wasn't allowed to become a captain, it doesn't means that he is not allowed to fly the plane. This accident had multiple factors like no Radar, no cardinal directions or self-dominance which could have been prevented.
@@julosx CRM goes against many cultures - the military chain of command for one, and especially traditional Asian cultures, where respect for your betters doesn't just mean courtesy, it means absolute deference. But given that Thai Airways hasn't had a fatal in 30 years, maybe, just maybe, lessons have been learned.
Imagine losing a family member or friend in a flight like this and then learning that the accident happened because the captain was arrogant :/ So avoidable
Your production quality is just amazing! Together with mentour and airspace you are one of my absolute favourite air crash documentary channels. The way you produce and explain things actually makes your content more appealing then newer ACI episodes, which have a far bigger budget than you. Thank you for putting the time and effort in!
@@GreenDotAviation Youre better than Mentour. He got full of himself and went in way of his head on things he doesnt comprehend. Its common with pilots and drivers, thinking they understand engineering, or the complexities of their industries because they know how to operate the machine. I used to love his stuff a lot, but when you see more and more mistakes that he refuses to acknowledge, its similar to the captain of this flight. CRM becomes ever more important, in all facets of life, when emotions get more and more heated, and logic and reason fail.
I have noticed a pattern in a lot of aviation disasters. Specifically in situations where pilots make a mistake without realizing it. When the plane alerts them to the problem, the pilots often think that there is a problem with the plane instead of realizing that they made an error. Are electronic or mechanical problems common in planes or are the pilots over confident in their abilities?
After watching a number of these videos, I'm convinced that the pilot is usually unschooled in operating a plane's computer system. The younger FO often will have a better understanding, but the older pilot will disregard the FO. Just my opinion.
@@georgittesingbiel219 I’ve noticed that too man. I’ve heard several of his stories where the younger less experienced pilot is completely disregarded because of an ignorant and arrogant pilot and moments later everyone is dead. Not even enough time for the co pilot to at least get in a “I told your dumbass” I don’t quite think a lot of people truly understand just how quickly things can go bad and when they do time might seem to carry on but it’s truly extremely fast. You’ll hear a lot of passengers say “it felt like we’re falling forever’ but for the pilots they feel they don’t have enough. I heard a fighter pilot say once when they do there extremely low flying maneuvers they have something that tells them how quick it’ll take for them to hit the ground from the height and speed they’re traveling at and sometimes it’s only 2-3 seconds. SECONDS!!!! Think about that. So basically one small mistake at that moment is going to be catastrophic
As a pilot, I can tell you that is human nature, to nearly automatically disbelieve what an outside stimulus is telling you and instead believe and look for anything to affirm your current mental model. It is called confirmation bias. Humility is an extremely hard thing to have as a human, and the best pilots have it. There are a lot of incidents just like this one where the pilot doesn't believe what the information is telling him, but what you haven't heard is the many more where the pilot realizes he did something wrong, believed what his aircraft was telling him, and quickly fixed it.
if you're spatially disoriented, from your perspective you've just been teleported to a random position and orientation and should proceed as such. maybe they should implement that as a feature in flight simulator training, sometimes you fly into some clouds and suddenly you're facing the wrong way and 10km north. maybe add it to the lore of pilot stories as a new type of gremlin that teleports your plane when you least expect it. then you don't have to risk questioning your superior's innate sense of reality itself and getting into an argument about who's right, you can just point out that the gremlins did that thing that they sometimes do where they teleported the plane, we gotta re-figure out where we are.
This is a good description. I once suffered spacial disorientation while piloting a boat in extremely thick fog and turned to an incorrect heading, which was going to bring me crashing up onto an island - and this was WHILE my full-color GPS chartplotting display (boat version of avionics) was right in front of me. It never happened to me before and never since, but I count it as one of the scariest moments of my life. Fortunately within a few minutes I was back on course. I imagine adding the variable of altitude makes this much worse all around. This can also happen to novice boaters at night, but you actually tend to pick that up and get used to it fairly quickly.
I can’t imagine what that sounded like, a fully laden passenger jet slamming into a cliff face at 600 miles per hour, I bet it’s a sound you’d never forget
@@longfade Correct, it is indeed a silent world as such. Without the combination of moving/vibrating air, eardrums and a brain to interpret the motion of the ear drum there is no actual sound.
My 27 yo niece, her 27 yo husband and their 5 children ages 8 years to 8 month old twins perished in this crash. I have carried contempt for that captain for decades.
The captain considered the first officer incompetent. But- which one was the really incompetent one? Taking on unrealistic workload, ignoring his first officer, ignoring GPWS? The incompetent one was the captain. =PC=
I don't think passanger aircrafts are nimble enough to climb and avoid the towering Cliffs of himalayas if they start the climb when they get GPWS warning
Not just the Himalayas, but any other place. From all the crash videos i have seen, it seems that the GPWS warning system has saved 0 planes from crashing. I mean i dont want to sound negative, or for the system to be removed, but whats the point of having a system that has a 0% success rate.
Your content is so well done! Thank you! I'm a school bus driver and it may sound weird but alot of these plane crash docs have made me a safer driver. There's alot to learn from.
Six minutes to troubleshoot the flight managenent computer when a quick glance at the compass would tell them it's right! Shame they weren't dealing with a JFK controller, no intimidation there. Another great and detailed analysis of a little-known case. Thanks.
JFK controllers have a working radar though:) It’s seems like in a lot of these crashes the airport doesn’t have a working radar and/or ILS system. Even LAX had a crappy radar until a bunch of people died, then they spent the money to upgrade to a better one. Seems like a common thing that an airport has an CFIT or mid-air collision and suddenly find the money to buy, fix, or upgrade their radar.
@@alexburke1899 true, but it doesnt excuse arrogance or incompetence. I flew into Luanda, Angola in the jump seat many times in the 90's and the PF was ESPECIALLY vigilant precisely because of lack of radar!
Yeah. That was stupid - The blame is with faa for allowing idiots to be pilots. Old school pilots who didn't rely so heavily on computers , and those trained by them directly are much better pilots - they tend to find a way to land a plane in all kinds of bad shape. They use common sense and experience and often figure a way to get unlandable planes on the ground safely. Because their minds are sharp and they know how the planes equipment all works. Whereas , folks who rely on computers, rely on computers to know how the plane works and wholy on the computer for navigation - can barely land a perfectly good plane in adverse weather , much less can they solve problems, improvise , and land a crippled plane.
@@aaronwalker8847 Old school pilots had more accidents and died more often though. I don’t think technology has made air travel less safe. It’s still almost always human error and rarely a computer error. I agree modern planes are more complicated and it would be hard for a old Spitfire pilot to figure out but I still think they are much safer. There’s always going to be untrained pilots and airlines that don’t provide enough training. With bad weather and mountains it’s kind of impossible to fly without being instrument rated and with modern gps.
Thank you! You helped me finally understand a problem of why some people act the way they do. He considered the other person incompetent. He took on his duties. Arrogance and the "desire to always be the smarter one and teaching the incompetent" is a stance my father continually took with me even though he knew I was smarter than him in that area and he needed to open up to my input and at least consider it and then value it if it was correct and also useful too.
like most if not all scientific inheritance. doctors use to deliver babies without washing instruments or their hands. we have come a long way. super apes on a spinning rock
I experienced this problem. I thought I had done an 180 degree turn but had actually done 360, but luckily it was only a walk in the forest so it was just a pretty long walk back. Another time I was stuck in ridiculous traffic on a German autobahn and needed to get to France before my ferry left. I left the autobahn and used a compass to keep me going in a generally correct direction. I got to see some beautiful views and found my way to France!
Indeed impossible to imagine that any airport was allowed to be built, let alone function, without radar. Think back to the world's worst air disaster at Tenerife. Both airports in difficult terrain and subject to frequent fog/visual impairment. Tenerife had no ground radar and this one had no radar at all.
My students, with only 2 hours in the classroom, know that a heading of 022 is northerly. If you don't know that, you should not drive a bus...........great vid.....thanks for helping us teach.
I can't believe that we were still seeing problems with CRM in 1992. Even after all the training at major airlines, in fact virtually all airlines, and the disasters caused by problems with CRM in previous years. The terrible disaster at Tenerife in 1977 is a prime example of a lack of CRM.
There was a reverse CRM problem that likely contributed to the AA587 disaster in Nov of 2001. The co-pilot was flying and began making bad decisions with the flight controls (multiple rudder reversals) as he entered wake turbulence, yet the captain just sat there and did nothing. had the captain simply said “my airplane” it might have saved that flight.
Fantastic view of the mountains flying in from the south. Done it many times. The way out is different. We circled out. A member of the airport staff called Kathmandu was a saucer airport.
@GreenDotAviation i've recently come across your channel and its by far one of the best aviation incident channels on youtube. Keep up the fantastic work!
for some reason younger me didn't like your videos and I could never sit still to watch a whole one but I've already ran through like 12+ videos and did NOT know what I was missing out on. keep on making the great content
At that time, approach and landing at Katmandu Airport was one of the most technically difficult in the world. That the pilot treated it with such contempt instead of treating each step in the approach with his utmost care, is unfathomable. A similar crash occurred on a Pakistani Airline approaching Katmandu not that long before this Thai crash; however, the pilots had misread the chart and believe they were 1000 feet higher than they really were.
The captain was an idiot. And if I was that F/O that's what I would be telling him because if he was going to get everyone killed I would speak my mind loud and clear. Especially when he ignored the ground proximity warning.
there was an old thai interview about this very accident and his colleagues and family said that he was also a scum irl who cheated on his wife and being mean to his peers not just the fo from this accident
It's difficult to understand how a pilot could turn the heading knob without even seeing the actual heading he selected. Don't get why the pilot wouldn't glance at the compass and see his heading and instantly recognize which direction he was flying. Super simple thing to do
Indian here. I can never understand how on earth they chose Kolkata as an alternative while there were far closer alternatives both inside Nepal and in the states of Uttar Pradesh and Bihar in India
It's absurd that, at any time since WWII ended (but most certainly by 1992), that any airport in the world which serves commercial flights is without basic radar services. In my view, that's as big a cause of this accident as anything else: the lack of a generally standard monitoring tool that helps prevent inevitable human errors from becoming catastrophic. Sounds like the report mentioned it as an afterthought. Why do the inevitable situational mistakes by the worker-bees always outweigh the ill-advised deliberate decisions by the bureaucrats? smh
Fully agree. And one of the world's most perilously located airports amidst some of the world's highest mountains, often subjected to fog and heavy precipitation/cloud cover. An insanely absurd oversight. If aircraft are under strict airworthiness, maintenance and regulatory requirements, pilots are under constant health and psych monitoring and re-training, how can any airport be allowed to operate with the most basic safety requirements of such items as Radar?
The radar at the airport would only have a range as far as the mountains surrounding the airport on each side. In mountainous terrain, ground based radar would be useless. They would have to build a massive mast towering over the peaks surrounding the airport and put the radar on top of that for it to be of any use.
@@alexl.4170 fair enough, but that hardly means it's completely useless; it could still cover whatever area it could cover over the airport, and multiple sources could be used together with a little bit of sophistication built in to cover wider range. Perhaps it wouldn't have prevented this particular incident, but it might have helped.
I went to kalkani in Nepal few weeks ago where the memorial for the deaths from the crash and I saw alot of names of those people who sadly passed away
The more I learn about how all this stuff works the angrier I get when I hear the decisions these people have made to cause all these terrible incidents.
I just Adore your channel. You keep me entertained at work when there's down-time, and I regularly continue watching when i get home from my loooong shift. I have Microsoft Flight Simulator on my Xbox Series X and tend to recreate your stories on my own. What an amazing channel. I'm extremely grateful to have stumbled across it. Thank you sooooo much!
👍👍👍 great narration and content, out of all youtube channels, your channel is the only channel I have ever looked for "have I missed any content ... is there anything I haven't seen yet?"
I’ve got to think adoption of GPS is going a long way to mitigate this kind of situational awareness difficulties. Navigation has got to be a much easier task now.
If you as a pilot are not able to realize what the numbers in the navigational circular display mean, you just do not belong into a cockpit. 0=North/9=East/18=South/27=west.
@@peerpaulin8486 considering that pilot ignored a ground proximity warning, what makes you think he belonged in a cockpit? I doubt he could read a compass based on his other idiotic maneuvers.
@@cantfindmykeys You are right. These pilots do not belong into a cockpit. GPWS has a very short warning time. Mostly it's already too late then. He could have monitored the compass in order to avoid flying into the mountains.
I learn a lot about teamwork in general by watching videos about aircraft accidents and incidents, on Green Dot, Mentour Pilot, and Wingx channels. So many of these accidents could have been avoided simply by better teamwork between the pilots. In this case, as in many others, we are reminded that if we are in a position of authority, not to be domineering and not to treat our coworkers as incompetent but to treat our coworkers with respect and to work with them, not over them. If we are in a subordinate position with a domineering person, we should still try to speak our concerns clearly and do our part of the work.
Do note that the pilot was required to do very little. Apart from autopilot handling, the captain took over R/T commn. Keeping track of the compass is ingrained into a pilot. That's buggerall of a cockpit load at relatively low speeds. Only a poor pilot will turn 360* in place of 180*. Think of a fighter pilot who flies solo, handling everything from start-up to switch-off. The aircraft is at high speed and altitude variation is very large, to be completed in a short time. He is brought up this way and finds switching over to an airliner easy to handle. He requires snap-snap R/T commn. He might find it confusing for a few months till he understands all civil terms used, that too at a leisurely pace, but that is what a simulator is designed to do.
I have watched so many of these 'air desaster' stories and two things strike me as odd and should be addressed for safety. 1/. There seem to be several airports without radar, particularly in hazardous terain areas. How is this allowed? 2/. Pilots flying in poor conditions suddenly get a terain warning, they instantly give full power and pull up but still crash. Why does the terain warning not go off in time to save the aircraft in so many cases? Anyway thank you for posting these videos, they are well put together and very informative.
1. Each country is responsible for installing and maintaining radar equipment. Some countries have less resources and radar is not always a priority. Of course, more and more are gaining radar coverage nowadays considering many of these accidents happened 30 plus years ago. 2. GPWS (Ground Proximity warning... or terrain), is done by onboard radar looking forward. It can't always work well with enough time for outclimbing the obstacle if the aircraft is going very fast and /or the terrain ahead is too steep, as in a sheer cliff ahead. Especially back then, 30 plus years ago, without GPS and computing power we have now, If it was programmed for more of this sudden climbing terrain, the GPWS would give many false alarms on more normal descents and approaches, making it a problem as well.
Hi, I don’t think you are correct… GPWS works off the Radio Altimeter using it’s radio waves to map off obstacles within a certain altitude/distance. First iterations came out in the 1970’s well before GPS. Today GPS nav programs do warn of obstacles and altitude conflicts but that is not the same as GPWS.
@@jeysonbraun5205 Hey, I am an A350 FO and I’m not familiar with systems on other aircraft however in the airbus, I don’t believe it’s tied into the radio altimeter, electing to use aircraft position and velocity to determine whether the aircraft is at risk of a collision. You’re right about the GPS statement though, I misspoke there and you’re right that GPWS was working before GPS was used in aviation. They do however did have IRSs and did have an accurate picture of aircraft position and velocity, even before GPS. However, in the 737-800, A3XX family, and even the Q400, it’s entirely computational and position based and does not use the Radio Altimeter or Radar. GPWS and EGPWS in the airbus is disabled with the IRSs in ATT mode, meaning it does not keep track of position rather just how the aircraft is moving. Again, I could be wrong in other cases however for my aircraft specifically it’s not tied into the RA.
No radar is simply pathetic. It's akin to relying upon a couple ROC observers, trusting to luck on their aircraft recognition and phoning in their sighting to the control tower.
6:52 It's not strange for the captain to be pilot flying and operating the radio if the first officer is going through check-list items and attempting to troubleshoot. From what I've learned from commercial pilots it is part of their normal crew resource management. It may have contributed to the captain's sense that he wasn't taking on unnecessary additional tasks, helping him to justify his poor CRM.
@@Capecodham I spelled it out fully earlier in the paragraph and then abbreviated it later for the sake of brevity. It's normal to do that in any context. Also people aren't being elitist for discussing things they've learned in an appropriate forum. If someone doesn't understand a concept or abbreviation they can learn about it by either searching online or asking in a comment. You don't have to look far on any aviation video to see people happy to share what they know which hardly suggests its a closed club.
I wonder why not a bird's eye view of the plane and its past path on a display chart that has a preset compass point (typically north) at the top. That would show very quickly that the craft was in the wrong place and/or pointed the wrong way -- and if so, also how it got there. This would have to be modified for flight near a pole, of course.
I just keep getting a sense from these videos that if the way point isn't where you expect it to be, gain altitude then figure it out up at altitude. Is this taught? Why so many cases where pilots seem to think the flight management computer must be wrong. Misplaced waypoint = I did something wrong. Right?
Some people can’t admit mistakes. Mistake gives them too much shame. So they gaslight and project the mistake onto someone or something else. Cluster b
Theres ppl from my home country in from Finland. Anyways idk why but these videos are insteresting idk why. Best one in my opinion was the one that when the plane managed to glide without any passengers dying
There will always be people who, justifiably or not, think so highly of themselves that they become arrogant and belligerent towards those working with and under them. In this case, if were the first officer, I would have relieved the captain of his control of the aircraft, and dealt with the consequences later. Better to lose my job than my life. One man's ego killed everyone on that flight. That is the real tragedy.
@@cakewalk4602 someone woke up grumpy. Put your pacifier back on and come back when you've outgrown your insensitivity. Oh wait, don't come back at all. Whether or not OP's claims are true or not is irrelevant.
The careless mechanic ones really terrify me. In fact, flying terrifies me. I watch these to justify my aviophobia. Too many scary flights and now I drive 3000 miles instead of flying.
@MundaneThingsBackwards I've survived many car crashes. I mean crashes because some idiot totaled my car with me inside it. That's not likely to work the same way in a plane. Seatbelts are very effective when traveling 500 mph. More like 50 mph you have a chance. In fact, I can't think of one person I know that didn't survive a horrific car accident at some point in life. I began flying at age 2 and I've lived in 17 countries (18th now) and I've flown my a** off and I hate it. Hate it, hate it, hate it. Thank goodness for xanax because you can't drive across the Darian Gap.. it's risky to fly 30,000 ft above the earth and to dive 300 ft below the surface of the earth. For humans. We weren't born with wings and the ability to fly naturally or born with an amphibious respiratory system, either. So we really don't belong in those places. Technology is not perfect like nature. If something can go wrong, it will. You talk about statistics, well. I've been hit by lightning. Once. What are the odds, idk. But it hurt and it sucks. It happened even though chances are it won't happen to most people. I don't like to gamble.
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Can u name the background music to this? Amazing videos!
@1:34 "Many of these passengers had booked this trip so that they could experience the breath taking view of the Himalayan mountains first hand."
That's eerie foreshadowing.
Physically becoming part of the view isn’t the same a viewing.
@@richardcranium3579Not about the "view" but the "breath taking" part
the reason this only has 3 comments is that we have no words
The co-pilot knew they were going in the wrong direction over mountains but still was afraid more of the captain rather than afraid for his life.
Hierarchy always kills in aviation
Captain's last thought: "I've had to do all this incompetent nincompoop's work for him and then he starts pestering me with stupid questions, and now he's getting me _killed._ . No wonder they never made him a captain."
Similar case happened in pakistan....
Both pilot and co pilot were incompetent. Pilot made several serious error too.
The first officer??
The first officer was also heard saying "Turn, turn. Let's go back!." To which, the captain replied "False reading! False reading!". The last thing the voice recorder picked up was "Oh, no...".
This is exactly why the first officer being "more forceful" wouldn't have helped.
was the "oh no" from the pilot or the FO?
last thing the captain heard was "retard, retard"
source?
This incident shows us the importance of situational awareness and sharing of workload between the pilots. Even if the first officer wasn't allowed to become a captain, it doesn't means that he is not allowed to fly the plane. This accident had multiple factors like no Radar, no cardinal directions or self-dominance which could have been prevented.
This self dominance thing had been wayyyyy too long in the tooth already in 1992 given the CRM programs started to be implemented around 1980.
All that the copilot had to say was "look at your compass heading, it's pointing north".
@@xonx209 Yes. He had been told he was an inferior pilot, so he didn't.
@@julosx CRM goes against many cultures - the military chain of command for one, and especially traditional Asian cultures, where respect for your betters doesn't just mean courtesy, it means absolute deference.
But given that Thai Airways hasn't had a fatal in 30 years, maybe, just maybe, lessons have been learned.
Huss is there anyway so I'll
Imagine losing a family member or friend in a flight like this and then learning that the accident happened because the captain was arrogant :/ So avoidable
When they saw the cliff in front of them, did the copilot say "Captain, who's more incompetent?"
Don't blame the captain only. Major fault was lack of radar system in kathmandu international airport.
@@PiggoNZ no one shoul blame the captain only. Major fault was lack of radar system in kathmandu international airport.
Yes.
@@PiggoNZ Very valid point
If you don’t trust your aircraft warnings or your copilot, it’s not going to end well!!
I can't imagine hearing the ground proximity alert and my first response being "eh false alarm probably."
Your production quality is just amazing! Together with mentour and airspace you are one of my absolute favourite air crash documentary channels. The way you produce and explain things actually makes your content more appealing then newer ACI episodes, which have a far bigger budget than you. Thank you for putting the time and effort in!
Thanks for the kind comment! Glad you're enjoying the videos :)
@@GreenDotAviation Youre better than Mentour. He got full of himself and went in way of his head on things he doesnt comprehend. Its common with pilots and drivers, thinking they understand engineering, or the complexities of their industries because they know how to operate the machine. I used to love his stuff a lot, but when you see more and more mistakes that he refuses to acknowledge, its similar to the captain of this flight. CRM becomes ever more important, in all facets of life, when emotions get more and more heated, and logic and reason fail.
@@RipRoaringGarage totally agree 💯
@@RipRoaringGarage agreed 💯
Not feeling much love for Mentour on here.Personally i enjoy his content an couldn't give a Donald Duck if he is full of himself or not...
I have noticed a pattern in a lot of aviation disasters. Specifically in situations where pilots make a mistake without realizing it. When the plane alerts them to the problem, the pilots often think that there is a problem with the plane instead of realizing that they made an error. Are electronic or mechanical problems common in planes or are the pilots over confident in their abilities?
After watching a number of these videos, I'm convinced that the pilot is usually unschooled in operating a plane's computer system. The younger FO often will have a better understanding, but the older pilot will disregard the FO. Just my opinion.
@@georgittesingbiel219 I’ve noticed that too man. I’ve heard several of his stories where the younger less experienced pilot is completely disregarded because of an ignorant and arrogant pilot and moments later everyone is dead. Not even enough time for the co pilot to at least get in a “I told your dumbass” I don’t quite think a lot of people truly understand just how quickly things can go bad and when they do time might seem to carry on but it’s truly extremely fast. You’ll hear a lot of passengers say “it felt like we’re falling forever’ but for the pilots they feel they don’t have enough. I heard a fighter pilot say once when they do there extremely low flying maneuvers they have something that tells them how quick it’ll take for them to hit the ground from the height and speed they’re traveling at and sometimes it’s only 2-3 seconds. SECONDS!!!! Think about that. So basically one small mistake at that moment is going to be catastrophic
Overconfidence is my guess
As a pilot, I can tell you that is human nature, to nearly automatically disbelieve what an outside stimulus is telling you and instead believe and look for anything to affirm your current mental model. It is called confirmation bias. Humility is an extremely hard thing to have as a human, and the best pilots have it. There are a lot of incidents just like this one where the pilot doesn't believe what the information is telling him, but what you haven't heard is the many more where the pilot realizes he did something wrong, believed what his aircraft was telling him, and quickly fixed it.
It's called confirmation bias
if you're spatially disoriented, from your perspective you've just been teleported to a random position and orientation and should proceed as such. maybe they should implement that as a feature in flight simulator training, sometimes you fly into some clouds and suddenly you're facing the wrong way and 10km north. maybe add it to the lore of pilot stories as a new type of gremlin that teleports your plane when you least expect it. then you don't have to risk questioning your superior's innate sense of reality itself and getting into an argument about who's right, you can just point out that the gremlins did that thing that they sometimes do where they teleported the plane, we gotta re-figure out where we are.
PLANES SHOULD BE MONITORED BY SATELLITE TRIANGULATE POSITION.
THEY COULD ALSO DOWNLOAD DATA IN REAL TIME REPLACING THE BLACK BOXES.
@@ronniewall492 IF YOU PRESS CAPS LOCK ON YOUR KEYBOARD YOU DONT HAVE TO TYPE IN CAPITALS
@@HotChook THEY ARE AN AID FOR A DISABILITY.
@@HotChook WHY DO PEOPLE COMPLAIN ABOUT CAPS?
YES EVERYONE KNOWS THEY ARE SUPPOSE TO BE YELLING.
THEY HELP ME TYPE
This is a good description. I once suffered spacial disorientation while piloting a boat in extremely thick fog and turned to an incorrect heading, which was going to bring me crashing up onto an island - and this was WHILE my full-color GPS chartplotting display (boat version of avionics) was right in front of me. It never happened to me before and never since, but I count it as one of the scariest moments of my life. Fortunately within a few minutes I was back on course. I imagine adding the variable of altitude makes this much worse all around.
This can also happen to novice boaters at night, but you actually tend to pick that up and get used to it fairly quickly.
I can’t imagine what that sounded like, a fully laden passenger jet slamming into a cliff face at 600 miles per hour, I bet it’s a sound you’d never forget
probably, like, bang
@@longfade the video specifically mentions a nearby village of people that heard it
@@longfade Correct, it is indeed a silent world as such. Without the combination of moving/vibrating air, eardrums and a brain to interpret the motion of the ear drum there is no actual sound.
I'm pretty sure for most of the passengers, it'll also be a sound they never heard
@@theflyinghobbit
Pretty sure the crew heard each other going “Oh f¥@#!!!”
My 27 yo niece, her 27 yo husband and their 5 children ages 8 years to 8 month old twins perished in this crash. I have carried contempt for that captain for decades.
Wow, what a piece of shit captain. Sorry for your loss
So sorry.😢
Im so sorry 😢😢
That’s so horrible, may they all rest in peace.
But contempt is only harming you, not the captain
The captain considered the first officer incompetent. But- which one was the really incompetent one?
Taking on unrealistic workload, ignoring his first officer, ignoring GPWS? The incompetent one was the captain. =PC=
It's my experience in the workforce that those who are the most incompetent are also the first to accuse others of incompetence.
@@TwoPlusTwoEqualsFive32 Yes.
And not to forget: Ignoring the ATC who was wondering why the aircraft was so near to the airport.
I don't think passanger aircrafts are nimble enough to climb and avoid the towering Cliffs of himalayas if they start the climb when they get GPWS warning
Not just the Himalayas, but any other place. From all the crash videos i have seen, it seems that the GPWS warning system has saved 0 planes from crashing. I mean i dont want to sound negative, or for the system to be removed, but whats the point of having a system that has a 0% success rate.
Your content is so well done! Thank you! I'm a school bus driver and it may sound weird but alot of these plane crash docs have made me a safer driver. There's alot to learn from.
Six minutes to troubleshoot the flight managenent computer when a quick glance at the compass would tell them it's right! Shame they weren't dealing with a JFK controller, no intimidation there. Another great and detailed analysis of a little-known case. Thanks.
JFK controllers have a working radar though:) It’s seems like in a lot of these crashes the airport doesn’t have a working radar and/or ILS system. Even LAX had a crappy radar until a bunch of people died, then they spent the money to upgrade to a better one. Seems like a common thing that an airport has an CFIT or mid-air collision and suddenly find the money to buy, fix, or upgrade their radar.
@@alexburke1899 true, but it doesnt excuse arrogance or incompetence. I flew into Luanda, Angola in the jump seat many times in the 90's and the PF was ESPECIALLY vigilant precisely because of lack of radar!
@@stephengrimmer35 Indeed, exactly.
Yeah. That was stupid - The blame is with faa for allowing idiots to be pilots. Old school pilots who didn't rely so heavily on computers , and those trained by them directly are much better pilots - they tend to find a way to land a plane in all kinds of bad shape. They use common sense and experience and often figure a way to get unlandable planes on the ground safely. Because their minds are sharp and they know how the planes equipment all works.
Whereas , folks who rely on computers, rely on computers to know how the plane works and wholy on the computer for navigation - can barely land a perfectly good plane in adverse weather , much less can they solve problems, improvise , and land a crippled plane.
@@aaronwalker8847 Old school pilots had more accidents and died more often though. I don’t think technology has made air travel less safe. It’s still almost always human error and rarely a computer error. I agree modern planes are more complicated and it would be hard for a old Spitfire pilot to figure out but I still think they are much safer. There’s always going to be untrained pilots and airlines that don’t provide enough training. With bad weather and mountains it’s kind of impossible to fly without being instrument rated and with modern gps.
I must congratulate you on the high quality of your videos, both in audio-visual presentation and your calm, authorative narration...well done!
Thank you!
Thank you! You helped me finally understand a problem of why some people act the way they do. He considered the other person incompetent. He took on his duties. Arrogance and the "desire to always be the smarter one and teaching the incompetent" is a stance my father continually took with me even though he knew I was smarter than him in that area and he needed to open up to my input and at least consider it and then value it if it was correct and also useful too.
I guess he thought he was smarter than the ground proximity warning, too.
@@cantfindmykeys the guy operating the ground warning might of bin a bipolar lesbian.
@@armandperez1677 lol what? I guess anything is possible.
@@armandperez1677 hilarious
Sorry you had that experience xxx
16:15 ETOPS as a patreon member really loves the Boeing 767 and its impact in aviation lol XD
Our safety of flying today was earned in the blood of many earlier flyers who were not as lucky.
RIght on. Let's see how that covid vaccine works out. At least we have 100 years of trial and error with aviation. And still no guarantees.
like most if not all scientific inheritance. doctors use to deliver babies without washing instruments or their hands. we have come a long way. super apes on a spinning rock
👍
Cool. Please also do a video on the PIA crash that happened in the same area that same year!
An international airport without radar??? That's crazy
that was in 1992...
The ATC crew were working since 9 months
@@KHAIKHAI777 exactly. not crazy at all. actually standard in a year that was a few years removed from the 80s lol
Also imagine all the pilots over the years, from the 40s till 90s without any incident.
I experienced this problem. I thought I had done an 180 degree turn but had actually done 360, but luckily it was only a walk in the forest so it was just a pretty long walk back.
Another time I was stuck in ridiculous traffic on a German autobahn and needed to get to France before my ferry left. I left the autobahn and used a compass to keep me going in a generally correct direction. I got to see some beautiful views and found my way to France!
Did you suffer the same flaps failure on the walk?
@@jameslimburn4210yeah his butt flaps fell off
@@assrammington7961 it has happened to us all at one time or another…
Green Dot,been watching your channel about a week and love your content..Keep it up,great stuff
As with so many crashes, authority differentials are a major cause. And it's hard to imagine an international airport without radar.
Indeed impossible to imagine that any airport was allowed to be built, let alone function, without radar. Think back to the world's worst air disaster at Tenerife. Both airports in difficult terrain and subject to frequent fog/visual impairment. Tenerife had no ground radar and this one had no radar at all.
Even harder to imagine that some international airlines actually fly to the airport without radar. Why did they take that kind of risk?
@@rainscratch Imagine flying to Africa or Asia in 1980s lmao Radars in these regions lol Enjoy.
No radar in destination airport!! As bizarre and shocking as it gets!
Someone I know died in this crash. It still is fresh in my mind.
I'm sorry
Sorry man,
Very sorry to hear that.
Sorry about that
Sorry to hear that 💔
This reminded me of how there are only a few pilots cleared to fly to or from Bhutan simply because it’s so risky.
We aren’t lost, the compass is wrong, the FO is wrong, the controller is wrong! yall moved the airport! At least the captain got his point across
and the ground proximity warning was wrong. He got his point across that he shouldn't be flying a plane.
Are you trolling 😂
@@cantfindmykeys And what is this mount Everest (or whatever) is doing here anyway?
@@mofleh177 Oh, yes, a mountain suddenly appeared from nowhere.. he probably wouldn't notice Mt. Everest if it was in his lap.
Thanks for the hi quality video. RIP crew and passengers.
Great to see extremely high quality videos and explanations to these situations, well done.
My students, with only 2 hours in the classroom, know that a heading of 022 is northerly. If you don't know that, you should not drive a bus...........great vid.....thanks for helping us teach.
not the first time we’ve seen someone ignore the GPWS like this.. even if they *think* it’s faulty it can’t hurt to climb
Exactly, the consequences of it being false are just so astonishingly small in comparison.
I can't believe that we were still seeing problems with CRM in 1992. Even after all the training at major airlines, in fact virtually all airlines, and the disasters caused by problems with CRM in previous years. The terrible disaster at Tenerife in 1977 is a prime example of a lack of CRM.
There was a reverse CRM problem that likely contributed to the AA587 disaster in Nov of 2001. The co-pilot was flying and began making bad decisions with the flight controls (multiple rudder reversals) as he entered wake turbulence, yet the captain just sat there and did nothing. had the captain simply said “my airplane” it might have saved that flight.
Fantastic view of the mountains flying in from the south. Done it many times. The way out is different. We circled out. A member of the airport staff called Kathmandu was a saucer airport.
@GreenDotAviation i've recently come across your channel and its by far one of the best aviation incident channels on youtube. Keep up the fantastic work!
Great Video :)
for some reason younger me didn't like your videos and I could never sit still to watch a whole one but I've already ran through like 12+ videos and did NOT know what I was missing out on. keep on making the great content
This channel always have great videos,great explanation ✌️
At that time, approach and landing at Katmandu Airport was one of the most technically difficult in the world. That the pilot treated it with such contempt instead of treating each step in the approach with his utmost care, is unfathomable.
A similar crash occurred on a Pakistani Airline approaching Katmandu not that long before this Thai crash; however, the pilots had misread the chart and believe they were 1000 feet higher than they really were.
It’s sad because the F/O Tried to tell the captain that the GPWS Was happening and the captain said it was false
The captain was an idiot. And if I was that F/O that's what I would be telling him because if he was going to get everyone killed I would speak my mind loud and clear. Especially when he ignored the ground proximity warning.
there was an old thai interview about this very accident and his colleagues and family said that he was also a scum irl who cheated on his wife and being mean to his peers not just the fo from this accident
@@cantfindmykeys and was going to move high up in the airline…….
@@richardcranium3579 who was? The idiot captain? Well, I guess he didn't get his chance but unfortunately he killed all those people.
@@cantfindmykeys You should take the control stick rather than just speak out loud.
Arrogance has no place in any teamwork situation. In aviation it can be extremely fatal 😢
Excellent as usual.
My hearing isn’t what it used to be and a bit more volume would have made this perfect.
Thanks.
Maybe wear headphones? I have bad hearing but wear phones which make a big difference.
@@jacksak Yeah I wear headphones on my smartphone but watch on TV. It’s a little bit of trouble to synchronize these but worth it.
Thanks.
Thanks for the feedback, I'll increase the sound levels in future vids.
I often use subtitles on videos, and Green Dot speaks very clearly so these work well on this one. Another option.
@@Secretlyanothername Didn’t occur to me. Thanks.
I love your videos and I literally have nothing to do with aviation. Been watching non stop for 2 weeks now
These videos have convinced me that GPWS is a reliable system.
It's difficult to understand how a pilot could turn the heading knob without even seeing the actual heading he selected. Don't get why the pilot wouldn't glance at the compass and see his heading and instantly recognize which direction he was flying. Super simple thing to do
Indian here. I can never understand how on earth they chose Kolkata as an alternative while there were far closer alternatives both inside Nepal and in the states of Uttar Pradesh and Bihar in India
Maybe because no one has ever heard of those places.
@andybrown6981 Nah not at all. Pilots have maps in front of 'em. And the ATC is there to tell about 'em as well.
Suitability of landing perhaps
@Red1Green2Blue3 Yeah this may be the reason
Imagine thinking GPWS is a false alarm, that's some dangerous confidence...
Thank you for the incredible video and details
Plane: Terrain, pull up!
Captain: Nah.
Your videos are one of my favorite parts of the week! Can you do a video about one of the Delta crashes at DFW? 🙏🥺
It's absurd that, at any time since WWII ended (but most certainly by 1992), that any airport in the world which serves commercial flights is without basic radar services. In my view, that's as big a cause of this accident as anything else: the lack of a generally standard monitoring tool that helps prevent inevitable human errors from becoming catastrophic. Sounds like the report mentioned it as an afterthought. Why do the inevitable situational mistakes by the worker-bees always outweigh the ill-advised deliberate decisions by the bureaucrats? smh
Fully agree. And one of the world's most perilously located airports amidst some of the world's highest mountains, often subjected to fog and heavy precipitation/cloud cover. An insanely absurd oversight. If aircraft are under strict airworthiness, maintenance and regulatory requirements, pilots are under constant health and psych monitoring and re-training, how can any airport be allowed to operate with the most basic safety requirements of such items as Radar?
The radar at the airport would only have a range as far as the mountains surrounding the airport on each side. In mountainous terrain, ground based radar would be useless. They would have to build a massive mast towering over the peaks surrounding the airport and put the radar on top of that for it to be of any use.
ABOVE....STILL IN THE CAVE-MAN MENTALITY......NOT CIVILIZED... N IT SHOWS....
Seriously, there's no excuse for that.
@@alexl.4170 fair enough, but that hardly means it's completely useless; it could still cover whatever area it could cover over the airport, and multiple sources could be used together with a little bit of sophistication built in to cover wider range. Perhaps it wouldn't have prevented this particular incident, but it might have helped.
Radar installed at an airport. It's an interesting concept. I guess knowing where things are as important? Fascinating.
another awesome video, can't wait till next week
I went to kalkani in Nepal few weeks ago where the memorial for the deaths from the crash and I saw alot of names of those people who sadly passed away
Thanks for making the vid! Watching the vid fresh at the end of my night shift. Greetings from traumatology dept!
Best videos on u tube fascinating human behaviour for an unplanned event keep up the great work
A lot of these stories include an egotistical pilot who won't listen to anyone.
This is why you have a copilot.
The more I learn about how all this stuff works the angrier I get when I hear the decisions these people have made to cause all these terrible incidents.
Thank you very much!👍
Your videos are great; def deserve more views!
Brilliant. As usual.👌🏻
I love your videos
I just Adore your channel. You keep me entertained at work when there's down-time, and I regularly continue watching when i get home from my loooong shift. I have Microsoft Flight Simulator on my Xbox Series X and tend to recreate your stories on my own. What an amazing channel. I'm extremely grateful to have stumbled across it. Thank you sooooo much!
👍👍👍 great narration and content, out of all youtube channels, your channel is the only channel I have ever looked for "have I missed any content ... is there anything I haven't seen yet?"
What a shame. Excellent video, subscribed.
I’ve got to think adoption of GPS is going a long way to mitigate this kind of situational awareness difficulties. Navigation has got to be a much easier task now.
That's a good idea, a compass not showing north, south, east or west, brilliant!
If you as a pilot are not able to realize what the numbers in the navigational circular display mean, you just do not belong into a cockpit. 0=North/9=East/18=South/27=west.
and no radar at the airport.
@@peerpaulin8486 considering that pilot ignored a ground proximity warning, what makes you think he belonged in a cockpit? I doubt he could read a compass based on his other idiotic maneuvers.
@@cantfindmykeys You are right. These pilots do not belong into a cockpit. GPWS has a very short warning time. Mostly it's already too late then. He could have monitored the compass in order to avoid flying into the mountains.
@@peerpaulin8486 I wouldn't let some of these pilots drive my car.
I learn a lot about teamwork in general by watching videos about aircraft accidents and incidents, on Green Dot, Mentour Pilot, and Wingx channels. So many of these accidents could have been avoided simply by better teamwork between the pilots. In this case, as in many others, we are reminded that if we are in a position of authority, not to be domineering and not to treat our coworkers as incompetent but to treat our coworkers with respect and to work with them, not over them. If we are in a subordinate position with a domineering person, we should still try to speak our concerns clearly and do our part of the work.
Very well done!
Excellent content
Great video
Sad that the hubris of the Captain made him unwilling to listen when he was warned a mistake had been made.
Poor crm,poor airmanship by captain.. 😕
your videos are great
Do note that the pilot was required to do very little. Apart from autopilot handling, the captain took over R/T commn. Keeping track of the compass is ingrained into a pilot. That's buggerall of a cockpit load at relatively low speeds. Only a poor pilot will turn 360* in place of 180*. Think of a fighter pilot who flies solo, handling everything from start-up to switch-off. The aircraft is at high speed and altitude variation is very large, to be completed in a short time. He is brought up this way and finds switching over to an airliner easy to handle. He requires snap-snap R/T commn. He might find it confusing for a few months till he understands all civil terms used, that too at a leisurely pace, but that is what a simulator is designed to do.
I was watching the video and realising that I’m watching it on the day of their crash anniversary 30 years ago 🙏🏻❤️😭💔
I have watched so many of these 'air desaster' stories and two things strike me as odd and should be addressed for safety.
1/. There seem to be several airports without radar, particularly in hazardous terain areas. How is this allowed?
2/. Pilots flying in poor conditions suddenly get a terain warning, they instantly give full power and pull up but still crash. Why does the terain warning not go off in time to save the aircraft in so many cases?
Anyway thank you for posting these videos, they are well put together and very informative.
1. Each country is responsible for installing and maintaining radar equipment. Some countries have less resources and radar is not always a priority. Of course, more and more are gaining radar coverage nowadays considering many of these accidents happened 30 plus years ago.
2. GPWS (Ground Proximity warning... or terrain), is done by onboard radar looking forward. It can't always work well with enough time for outclimbing the obstacle if the aircraft is going very fast and /or the terrain ahead is too steep, as in a sheer cliff ahead. Especially back then, 30 plus years ago, without GPS and computing power we have now, If it was programmed for more of this sudden climbing terrain, the GPWS would give many false alarms on more normal descents and approaches, making it a problem as well.
@@jeysonbraun4250 Hi, just for clarification, GPWS does not have its own radar system. It’s GPS based and works off of a pre documented terrain map
Hi, I don’t think you are correct… GPWS works off the Radio Altimeter using it’s radio waves to map off obstacles within a certain altitude/distance. First iterations came out in the 1970’s well before GPS. Today GPS nav programs do warn of obstacles and altitude conflicts but that is not the same as GPWS.
@@jeysonbraun5205 Hey, I am an A350 FO and I’m not familiar with systems on other aircraft however in the airbus, I don’t believe it’s tied into the radio altimeter, electing to use aircraft position and velocity to determine whether the aircraft is at risk of a collision. You’re right about the GPS statement though, I misspoke there and you’re right that GPWS was working before GPS was used in aviation. They do however did have IRSs and did have an accurate picture of aircraft position and velocity, even before GPS.
However, in the 737-800, A3XX family, and even the Q400, it’s entirely computational and position based and does not use the Radio Altimeter or Radar. GPWS and EGPWS in the airbus is disabled with the IRSs in ATT mode, meaning it does not keep track of position rather just how the aircraft is moving.
Again, I could be wrong in other cases however for my aircraft specifically it’s not tied into the RA.
I wonder the same as well. It is always the airport that should all the equipments installed and lack there off.
Well done. New subscriber here
I like the narration.
Im no aviation expert but im starting to think that its almost criminal for an airport not to have radar
Can we support it another way as Patreon is so clunky and difficult. , just to support you!!
Arrogance and aviation don't mix.
Stay humble.
R.I.P. ✈
Everytime I hear a go around it never ends up good.
No radar is simply pathetic. It's akin to relying upon a couple ROC observers, trusting to luck on their aircraft recognition and phoning in their sighting to the control tower.
You'd think it would take one day of thick fog for people to realize this
Very similar to AA 965 indeed. Maybe there were noxious fumes in the cockpit!
Great video! Can you also do an episode on another accident at Kathmandu, the US Bangla 211 from 2018?
6:52 It's not strange for the captain to be pilot flying and operating the radio if the first officer is going through check-list items and attempting to troubleshoot. From what I've learned from commercial pilots it is part of their normal crew resource management. It may have contributed to the captain's sense that he wasn't taking on unnecessary additional tasks, helping him to justify his poor CRM.
@@Capecodham I spelled it out fully earlier in the paragraph and then abbreviated it later for the sake of brevity. It's normal to do that in any context. Also people aren't being elitist for discussing things they've learned in an appropriate forum. If someone doesn't understand a concept or abbreviation they can learn about it by either searching online or asking in a comment. You don't have to look far on any aviation video to see people happy to share what they know which hardly suggests its a closed club.
Yeah, but how would he justify ignoring a ground proximity warning?
I wonder why not a bird's eye view of the plane and its past path on a display chart that has a preset compass point (typically north) at the top. That would show very quickly that the craft was in the wrong place and/or pointed the wrong way -- and if so, also how it got there. This would have to be modified for flight near a pole, of course.
Quality as always.
There are bold pilots
There are old pilots
But there are no old, bold pilots.......
I just keep getting a sense from these videos that if the way point isn't where you expect it to be, gain altitude then figure it out up at altitude.
Is this taught? Why so many cases where pilots seem to think the flight management computer must be wrong.
Misplaced waypoint = I did something wrong.
Right?
Some people can’t admit mistakes. Mistake gives them too much shame. So they gaslight and project the mistake onto someone or something else. Cluster b
13:46 lack of cardinal directions on display - not mentioned in Wikipedia article AFAICT
Theres ppl from my home country in from Finland. Anyways idk why but these videos are insteresting idk why. Best one in my opinion was the one that when the plane managed to glide without any passengers dying
Well explained analysis of this terrible disaster.
@Steve Robinson I'm not sure what's 'funny' about a tragic loss of life. You must have a very twisted sense of humour.
There will always be people who, justifiably or not, think so highly of themselves that they become arrogant and belligerent towards those working with and under them. In this case, if were the first officer, I would have relieved the captain of his control of the aircraft, and dealt with the consequences later. Better to lose my job than my life. One man's ego killed everyone on that flight. That is the real tragedy.
A trend in many of these accidents is no radar.
NICE SHOW THREE GREEN
How sad, I had a family members, both husband and wife die in this tragic accident.
didn't ask doesn't care
@@cakewalk4602 "didn't ask doesn't care" that basically sums up your IQ lmao
@@cakewalk4602 someone woke up grumpy. Put your pacifier back on and come back when you've outgrown your insensitivity. Oh wait, don't come back at all. Whether or not OP's claims are true or not is irrelevant.
Idk why but failures involving early automation are terrifying
The careless mechanic ones really terrify me. In fact, flying terrifies me. I watch these to justify my aviophobia. Too many scary flights and now I drive 3000 miles instead of flying.
@MundaneThingsBackwards I've survived many car crashes. I mean crashes because some idiot totaled my car with me inside it. That's not likely to work the same way in a plane. Seatbelts are very effective when traveling 500 mph. More like 50 mph you have a chance. In fact, I can't think of one person I know that didn't survive a horrific car accident at some point in life. I began flying at age 2 and I've lived in 17 countries (18th now) and I've flown my a** off and I hate it. Hate it, hate it, hate it. Thank goodness for xanax because you can't drive across the Darian Gap.. it's risky to fly 30,000 ft above the earth and to dive 300 ft below the surface of the earth. For humans. We weren't born with wings and the ability to fly naturally or born with an amphibious respiratory system, either. So we really don't belong in those places. Technology is not perfect like nature. If something can go wrong, it will.
You talk about statistics, well. I've been hit by lightning. Once. What are the odds, idk. But it hurt and it sucks. It happened even though chances are it won't happen to most people. I don't like to gamble.