no gohan doesnt need to be there..he sucks...gokus story being taken over by his bland son who we as fans would not give a shit about if the show started with him is pretty lame to end a series with or end a character like goku who for the first time ever can't beat the foe..really?..smdh….god thats lame..i just hate the cell stuff
Technically this is July now but yea this was quick. That maybe because this is close to the finish line of this arc. I seen that the end of the Freeza arc he put up the last of it up quickly. He has been doing this arc for a year and a half like that arc. Geez how long will it take for him to finish the Boo arc? Since you know that arc is so damn long. Like this arc it really doesn't need to be so long either.
I agree with you on Gohan, he was interested in doing Goku stuff and going off to adventure, but also wanted to have a real life and be a scholar, i think his Great Saiyaman era is Gohan in his most genuine, because he only developed his secret identity to help fight crime and have some adventures, while keeping a low profile and studying as Son Gohan and achieve both of his wishes.
I saw it inheritance and destiny. With goku gone gohan will be the strongest. With gero gone cell is the only android left to become perfect and kill son goku.
@@josesosa3337 buu arc exist, meaning that idea is out the window, also Akira didn't want Goku out the picture for good, making the Cell portion of the arc pointless
I can't even call it "Goku's consequences", because nothing about Cell was a consequence about Goku except for arguably giving him the senzu. Cell already comes from a timeline with no Goku in it to stop him. Goku was not the catalyst for either of Cell's transformations. That was 17, Vegeta, and Krillin (and to a lesser extent Trunks) Goku couldn't step in until he really had to because he was expecting Vegeta to hurry up, but he eventually saves Piccolo & Tenshinhan anyway. No one tries to punch Cell in the face during the 10 day wait because Cell actually does keep his promise except for self-defense by the military, giving them time to train and everything. Goku genuinely gives it his all when he fights Cell. This is probably the closest you could get to "Goku did nothing wrong."
@@Vegeto30294 It's consequence in its neutral form and not purely in its negative definition. Cell was made by the Red Ribbon Army, which Goku destroyed and whom the group sought vengeance on. Cell also contains the data of every villain Goku has defeated from their techniques and supposedly their memories/ambitions too. And while DB as a whole doesn't really support this, Cell is the embodiment of his dangerous challengers that Goku feared was putting the Earth in danger. I don't think the arc is written well enough to support all this, but the idea is there.
You can't really put too much blame on Goku for wanting Gohan to become a fighter. Before Raditz came he was perfectly find with letting him study and actually told him to run when things got dangerous, it's only after seeing Gohan's hidden power and wanting help in a battle that he actually choose him to be his successor.
goku willingly staying dead has always annoyed me..so has going to train uub to end z the end of super with him vs vegeta and the end of gt...the original dragonball has always had the best ending to me....maybe they really should of ended the series on freeza...it just got stupid after that didnt it?..like who cares?...what was that like 8-9 years into the manga when that started
Successor to what? In order to be a successor to something, you have to have a defined role for them to take on. Goku is the hero for the audience, he is not a hero in his own story. He has made far too many questionable decisions to be given such an honor. And even if that were not the case... Goku nor anyone else ever defines him as such. He is just the guy fortunate enough (due to plot convenience) to be able to train a bit before fighting the big fight. No one ever really looks to Goku unless they already know he is preparing for said fight. When Goku is on his death, Piccolo doesn't wait. He swallows his pride because GOKU ISN'T FUCKING TRAINING FOR ANYTHING nor is he going to be the beneficiary of a plot mandated power up after being healed. They don't worship Goku, again he just happens to be the most qualified due to plot convenience. So is Goku stroking his own ego? Probably. He wants Gohan to be him. He thinks someone has to be him. As I've said before, Goku is a person who is 100% reactionary to the moment. He trained with Gohan for a year, forced to be around him, and as such he naturally grew close to him. You know when else that happened? *When he spent more then a few minutes with basically anyone who isn't blown up before the next arc.* He befriends everyone he comes into contact with. There is a manga full of evidencet. This is no different. Gohan is not a son to him, he is a friend. When Goku realizes his mistake, he feels the need to be Goku again. When Cell threatens to blow up the planet, he jumps in happily because he can be Goku. He stays dead because he is Goku, he is 100% in the moment and at that moment he is in other world thinking of the prospect of training for eternity. He just made that decision on a whim. He couldn't care less about his son or Earth because Gohan is just Kurririn, just Blooma, just anyone on the Dragon team he had no qualms with parting with throughout the manga. This is why Toriyama does not view him as a good person, just someone whose predisposition lends him to happen to be a hero due to circumstance and not some conscious decision. All of Goku's actions, yes even helping the turtle, prove this. Why? The turtle was there. He saw it, he sympathized with it. So he helped it. Upa was there, he saw him cry. So he sympathized. But Goku wouldn't go out of his way to help unless present unless he could feel the sadness of the moment. Again, again, he is reactionary. He is a free spirit. He does what he feels like doing when he feels it. He is pure in the sense that he is true to himself always.
@@PathBeyondTheDarkA Circumstancial hero is still a hero. Actively while Goku is Selfish he won't let wrong happen if there is another way. His decisions might be flawed from time to time but that's what makes him a character. It still be in his nature to wish for the good of the world and want to carry his martial artist tradition. That's what he wanted Gohan to be a passionate Martial Artist like himself while also Defending himself and other if someone did pose a danger. If No one else Goku atleast has motivation to protect his friends and fight for enjoyment. That's what he wanted for Gohan when he saw potential. An Amazinf fighter but also a person who could step up if needed.
It is always cathartic hearing Lance defend Goku on his parenting mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes especially as a parent. At least he is never a asshole to his son. Comparing Vegeta to Goku on this is not even worth a comparison. Would you rather have a caring good person as a father or a recovering murderer who neglects you?
@@banzafid7181 Yes it is. People refer to Picollo as Gohan's real father in a comedic sense. If that's not a meme then what is it? It's not even funny at that.
While Piccolo scolds Goku for not understanding his son and him not wanting to dedicate himself to fighting, I feel like Goku should have said something back that Gohan isn't such a little kid to be constantly protected. They're both looking at two different sides of Gohan and temporarily forgot the other side existed. Goku was there when Gohan was the first to stand up to Great Ape Vegeta, and how he had to get back up to protect his crippled father. Piccolo was dead at the time. Goku knows Gohan hit Dodoria, hid from Freeza, fought Gurd and fought Recoom. Piccolo was travelling to/training on Kaio's Planet and wasn't watching the whole time. (In a filler episode so it doesn't count really) Goku knows Gohan went to fight Freeza in his place. Piccolo was unconscious at the time. Goku and Piccolo helped Gohan train for the Cyborg attack, but didn't really make any gains or do much. Goku and Gohan train alone in the RoSaT and he makes _all_ the gains. Goku even expressly stated he's out to make Gohan stronger than himself, and Gohan wanted to help defeat Cell (just not be _the_ one to defeat Cell). Goku saw Gohan's willingness to fight far more than Piccolo ever has and knows that whatever the case, Gohan is the only one who can defeat Cell. Piccolo saw Gohan's fragile side more than Goku ever has, and he knows that his emotions are what drive him or hold him back.
What? Piccolo actually trained gohan for a year so he should definetly understand gohans willingness to figh. Also now would be a terrible time to play the blame game.
@@fightingmedialounge519 That would be a big point except in the Nappa fight, Gohan had to be saved from a stray Saibaman (by Piccolo), and Gohan froze at the crucial moment they needed to injure Nappa, and Piccolo told him to go home if he's going to be scared all day. Gohan didn't fully step up until moments after Piccolo's death.
@@Vegeto30294Piccolo should know better than scold Goku over not knowing Gohan when he's the one who threw a 4yo into a mountain to force him into drawing out his power.
8:27 I'm right there with you. I am so sick of people saying that Goku is a bad father and Vegeta is a better dad. You said they say it jokingly, but they really don't. They GENUINELY BELIEVE THAT. I'm so glad you brought that up.
To be fair, Lance is being a bit disingenuous by using a picture of Vegeta punching Future Trunks to make that contrast. When people say Vegeta is a better dad, they don't mean Vegeta as he is in this arc, they mean Vegeta as he is in the next arc, not as he is with his son's future counterpart who he barely even knows, but rather as he is with his actual present day son whom he implicitly spends the next six years raising and nurturing. You know, as opposed to Goku who abandons his family during that same timeframe leaving the unborn Goten to grow up without a father. That said, Vegeta still ain't no saint and he's still gonna do some really stupid and selfish things in the next arc too, but the people who try and endorse him as the better dad aren't entirely pulling that argument out of there asses either. Which isn't to say Goku has to be a "bad" father by contrast, they can each both have there own different virtues and faults.
Emeral Bookwise Goku does totally step out on Gohan, no arguing that. But, correct me if I’m wrong, I don’t believe he’s ever made aware of Goten existing. Now, he certainly could’ve checked in, but I don’t think he remained in the afterlife under the guise of “I don’t wanna raise my second son.” After all, there’s never anything said in the story that implies Goku did anything other than being a family man post-tenkaichi budokai/pre-Raditz.
Emeral Bookwise lol at “raising and nurturing”,Vegeta himself said to Trunks that he’s never held his own son once in his entire life. Vegeta wasn’t a caring father until he was literally knocking on death’s door. Goku was the one who raised and nurtured Gohan the first 4 or 5 years of his life before giving up his life for him with the battle against Radditz, and he also put the safety of his own family above himself yet again by remaining to stay dead because he realized the Earth was in constant peril because of enemies he made.
@@VintageSpaceRay: I'd say there is at least an implication Goku learned about about Goten at some point during the intervening years, seeing as when they finally meet for the first time Goku isn't surprised, isn't naively asking who this kid is. But even ignoring Goten, that doesn't make abandoning his wife and other child any more excusable. Again though, this isn't about trying to paint Goku as a bad father. What even makes a good parent in the first place can be rather subjective anyway. Without a doubt Goku is probably the kinder and more compassionate father, at least when he bothers to be around. By contrast Vegeta can be very aloof, even harsh, but he was at the very least present throughout the younger Trunks' childhood.
Damn, this video has a funny structure. First 15 min is like a dissection of Gohan's character, and the last 2 min contain EVERYTHING that's happening in the plot in rapid succession. Great episode though. Nice that you managed to address both fan opinions about Gohan ("he should be a fighter!" "no, he wants to be a schooler and is a pacifist!") and explain how there's merit to both of them.
I always found Gohan's "I don't want to kill" thing to Cell really weird, and I always thought back to those Frieza soldiers as well. What was he expecting Cell to do? Just go away then cuz he doesn't want to fight him anymore?
Also, that fight with Frieza's men was really the only time he showed desire to fight and kill people. You could say that scene was out of character for him.
At least within the context of this arc, I feel that Gohan steals the end of Trunks’ character arc. Now of course, Trunks has far less of an emotional connection and history with the main cast; however, this feels like his fight to me. Trunks’ actions in the early part of the arc (barring stepping out to sit in the future for a bit) are defined by his fear and relatively passive role. He depends almost entirely on others because of his fear of the artificial humans (Gohan In the future, giving Goku the cure, watching Vegeta fight 18, and so on.) And he only seems to jump into fights when his fear of the direness of the situation sets in, or in situations where he develops confidence, both proving to be his downfall. Trunks’ laments his failure against Cell after finally becoming strong enough and confident enough to face a fight that, by all means, is set up to be his. So to have him so unceremoniously sidelined as a member of the peanut gallery and then disposed of to provide a brief character moment for Vegeta feels like a completely jarring pause in his narrative to make room for Gohan. Now, of course Trunks’ arc wraps up nicely when he returns to his own time with the strength, confidence, and swiftness to take care of the artificial humans there; but his relative absence at this point in the story is such a disservice to his role so far (reverting him back into someone waiting for someone to fight for him rather than growing from his own mistakes). Side note, his death also feels more like a plot device with no emotional weight that’s only purpose was to break Gohan’s arm thanks to Gohan specifically mentioning that Trunks can be revived earlier that same day in the story.
I concur that is why I feel Trunks doesn't do squat that's important. Since he gets sidelined despite this really having more connection to him. What was the point of time travel if the traveler becomes irrelevant. Also I would like to mention that in his timeline he waits for Cell to be born. Despite knowing where he was he sits out the three years until Cell would be born. Not only that he leaves his time machine out. Not omly that he waits three years to inform everyone he dealt with the others. He never does and they would understandably assume he took care of everything.
@@spartanq7781 Trunks just wanted to be the messager and one of his other goals was to bring Goku to the future.But i don't think he could convince Goku of coming since he just got there from planet yardrat,His timeline is different than the main cast timeline just because trunks now know where Dr Gero second lab in that timeline doesn't mean that underground lab is in the same location in his timeline... Does it take like 3 years to make fuel for the time machine? So I don't why you blame trunks for waiting 3 years later to inform the cast that he finish off the Artificial Humans.
I disagree with Trunks' death being unimportant, i think that's a major moment for Vegeta, and is what makes him turn into a decent human (?) being, i think that without that moment, he would have never realized he had people he cared about. But on the other hand....Yeah, after all that build-up in the beginning, the most important thing Trunks did in the arc was dying...
Gianluca Forani my wording was probably poor, but I completely agree. It’s a very important death, it’s just a shame that it’s so important to Vegeta’s character arc and almost inconsequential to trunks. Trunks feels like such a non character at the moment of his death that if it didn’t happen, his story wouldn’t change all that much if at all. Vegeta plays such an active role in every part of the Cell arc from Android 19 through the assist to Gohan in the finale. He always seems to have a hand in everything and I wish Trunks had gotten a similar treatment.
@@supaseru9736 I was talking about him waiting for Cell to be born. When he could have killed the embryonic Cell. You know like he and Kurrin did with this timelines Cell.
Goku's character is misinterpreted by most. He is someone who does everything on a whim. Good, bad, other. He does what he feels like doing. It could be helping a poor turtle because the sadness of the moment influenced him, or put the world at jeopardy because at that time he just wants a good fight. He is a free spirit. That is why his actions seem so contradictory. It's just who he is. He lives moment to moment, he has no grand plan. And his whimsical nature is shown throughout the manga. It's mistaken for compassion, for heroism, for just wanting to beat up some strong guys. Something that isn't brought up is his sudden shift in caring about the next generation all the way from the Cell arc through the end. But everyone wants to talk about him loving to fight. Well, is that not contradictory? "Hey you kid, fight for me." It's just his flavor of the month, what he is interested in at that time. It's not done out of a genuine concern for the world, he just relishes in the idea and it brings him gratification. It's also been consistent that he leaves his loved ones as soon as he feels like it. He left the original team to find his grandpa's ball, he left the team to train on more then one occasion, he stays dead because that's what he wants. And look no further then Toriyama himself for proof. This is how he meant for his character to be interpreted and it is how I interpret it. To me, his actions throughout paint a clear picture. He has always loved to explore, to learn in his own way, to find enjoyment in something and when he does, he rolls with it. That remained consistent throughout. Gohan isn't a son to him, he is a friend. He treats him like all of his friends, always has. He saw how powerful his friend was, so he tried to exploit it (not in a sinister way, he wasn't aware it was wrong). He doesn't process what being a father is. He only knows friendship, so thats how his care comes through. It's like the free spirit you see in movies - never at fault because they don't know better, unpredictable, and yet everyone loves them. During the Tournament of Power (yes I'm bringing up DBS again) he proclaims he never saw himself as a hero of justice. He fought for himself and his friends, who are basically extensions of himself. *It's the perfect quote to sum up his character.* And yes, DBS is trash in many regards I have said this, but it nails some things better then Toriyama ever did (seriously I want to discuss the ToP if you are even reading this. It's an itch I probably won't be able to scratch unless I get really lucky).
The Trunks Specials could've given Gohan more of a connection to the story. That is if Trunks interacted more with young Gohan in the main series. And then if Cell killing Trunks had been what caused Gohan to go SS2. This is an old video for an even older series, but it got me thinking :)
I think the problem is that Toriyama made stuff up as he goes along. When Trunks was introduced, I don't think he ever had the idea that Gohan was his trainer and that they were close, until the History Of Trunks manga, which came out way later in the Cell Saga, during the Goku vs Cell fight. Which would explain the lack of connection with Gohan with Trunks, throughout the whole saga. No hints about their connection in Trunk's past.
I want to bring attention to the amazing page flip during Gohans snap. Sure, the heartfelt 16 speech could have foreshadowed it but the previous page was so full of small panels and text that flipping the page to this huge page of Gohan snapping makes it way more effective. In the anime this moment lost all of its surprise imo, ESPECIALLY in the american version.
I used to love the Funi English dub version of Gohan's transformation as a kid, but holy hell is it cringy now. The internal monologue really wasn't needed, and it can't even be edited out since it fades right into the scream. I guess Kai does it right, but I have so much nostalgia for original Gohan's voice, so I wish there was a "proper" version of that scene if that makes any sense.
@@_ace_defective_ yeah, was never a fan of how many early anime dubs were so afraid that kids couldn’t comprehend 3 seconds of silence so they filled every moment of it with either annoying sound effects, audio cues or characters over-monologuing what they can already see whats on screen
I attribute Gohan's sudden pacifist sentiments to the typical Toriyama form of storytelling: characters act only according to what the plot needs from them. As you have pointed out many times, characters act in and out of character constantly. Here Toriyama needed to take Gohan's gentleness and stretch it to become pacifism in order to have the star contrast we see once he awakens. Toriyama characterizes in extremes. There is no nuance to his characters, they are one thing when he needs them to be and then another the same. Gohan's relatively consistent arc until this point was likely due to Toriyama just needing him to be "the boy who got angry sometimes and shocked the audience." That this exceptional conclusion to said arc fell in his lap, however that may have been, is in itself shocking. A perfect example of Toriyama's tendencies is Gohan after this arc. He does not know what to do with him other then present him as one of those two extremes. He does not understand how to mesh the pacifist scholar with the rage induced ruthless fighter. He has no interest in exploring this dynamic in Gohan, in Gohan finding a way to incorporate both halves of himself, in coming to terms with who he is. In my eyes, he is a true hero. Unlike the Goku of the Z era who fought just as much for himself as anyone, if not moreso, he fights solely for others. His "proper" continuation of his arc should have seen him be able to channel that rage into the need to protect, to never see others suffer again. Use that hatred to save people from monsters, *hate the bad guys.* This should have been his motivation to continue training. Contrary to everything Toriyama seems to think - as demonstrated by Goku having to choose training or family during most of his run - *you can do both, especially when you travel at light speed.* It's not easy, even with aforementioned lightspeed travel, but Gohan has demonstrated he doesn't quit just because it gets hard.Say what you will about Dragon Ball Super, but at least the writing staff realize Goku can travel the cosmos in an instant and so can be seen with his family and training. It'sd a much more interesting path to take having a character accept ALL sides of himself and find the right balance. But again, Toriyama does not understand or doesn't care. Enter "Beast Gohan" which is the first time since the Cell arc we have seen that "other" side. But now it is presented as once again an extreme, only the opposite. It feels like "big white hair" brings out the animal while "black hair, nerdy glasses" brings out the scholar. I have no confidence going forward, but *at least* it seems like Gohan is able to Jekyll and Hide at will and perhaps that's how it will stay. He shows some restraint by sticking to the plan with Piccolo, but I highly doubt a truly realized and assimilated Gohan will ever be a thing, the man who is all of he.
I honestly don't think this was out of character. Gohan said he wasn't a fighter like Goku, which always seemed the case. He only ever trained when he had to or was forced to. Besides, when him and Krillin killed those soldiers, he never showed any desire to fight.
I agree with you, yeah Gohan isn't a warrior, but you don't get this good at something just to survive, especially when you had all of this time, and you end up getting better then the person that loves fighting. Talent can only get you so far, and if you put effort into something and you get so good that people around you are impressed that are especialist on that field, it isn't for nothing. Now don't get me wrong, i can get that on his own Gohan would probably be less motivated to focus completely on training and more of making a balancing act which can put him on the backburner of progress compare to others that completely dedicated thenselves to this... No so weak that he is weaker then he is now, but having made less progress then them. My main problem when i sit down with the original Manga going into it's last arc regarding Gohan, it's that Toriyama, because he doesn't know how to handle Gohan, gives up too quickly. And ironically, i think that the idea of making Gohan interact more with peers of his age, making him see and care more about people around him, maybe go into an small adventure that puts them in danger to realize that if something worse comes, he has to find a proper balance in his innerself, then have the tournament where Buu appear, he already knows the problem and it's the act of trying to find the solution that's the core of the issue... But like you pointed out, i don't think Toriyama had it in him to handle a complex character like Gohan, he created something closer to Ichigo, which needs a more story centrict careful planning author then something who using a term we use in my native country, scrapes off asphalt.
Agreed with you, Toriyama just put Gohan into the protagonist role without a thought so of course we needed a source for drama for Gohan's fight since his power ups are given to a silve plate(since Goku's efforts to overcome the opponent were the source of 'drama") so enter Gohan pacifist mode out of nowhere. Those kind of problems exist in all characters, Toriyama's sudden change of direction of Vegeta after Namek, Piccolo going from hard-boilled warrior to a comedic babysitter and Goku switching from standard hero to battle maniac whenever its convenient.
@Thisdude850 Vegeta never had a change in direction after Namek. Piccolo's changes are called character development. You know that Gohan softened him up. Being a babysitter isn't his only role in the series. So what if he's close with Pan. 😆
I agree largely with this, but I really think Gohan's character arc needs a change if he will continue to be used in the franchised. His same arc has been recycled too many times, so I wish they would do something different (and interesting) with him, or just leave him alone.
I'm glad someone finally said it. I've always found it weird how... random?... Gohan feels in this scenario. It always made sense at leasat to some level, but it never really sat right for me for reasons I could never palce.
8:37 "This is treating your kid better!? *THIS IS TREATING YOUR KID BETTER!?* " You know, the way you said it reminds me of "ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT KURIRIN!?" and I dunno if it was intentional or not.
Does anyone ever think about how nobody had a problem with forcing a younger Gohan to fight the Saiyans in a deathmatch? Goku encouraged Gohan to fight Vegeta, even shaming him in the process. Piccolo and Krillin had no issue with Gohan fighting Freeza when he was outmatched and could very easily be killed either. Sure at most points they were fighting alongside him, but that's no insurance for his safety. It's only now that they suddenly realize Gohan is a softie inside, is only a kid, and is in need of protection.
Goku was already aware of Gohan's potential, when he wanted him to fight Vegeta, he was their last hope, both Goku and Krillin were down and Gohan had enough fight in him, plus he wanted to help anyway, it was him who came back to the fight. As for Frieza, it's not like they were letting Gohan fight him alone. They were fighting with him.
With the saiyans, they did because he's literally one of the strongest characters and without him the whole planet including him would be dead anyway. It was a desperate situation where he and piccolo where the only two aliens on earth that stood a chance with bringing the gap between the oncoming saiyans until Goku showed up. The adult fighters all put themselves on the line first even though gohan had the most potential. And even then, Piccolo told gohan to go home when he wasn't up to the challenge, once Goku showed up he also insisted Gohan go home. So I do feel like the priorities of the adults in that situation were different and they were concerned with Gohan's safety. But him not getting involved in battle would have led to him eventually getting killed as he had a higher chance of living if he helped fight the threat off. Similar situation with Namek, as Krillin and Gohan avoided dangerous foes unless their backs where against the wall. The only reason gohan was there was because they thought namek was peaceful. And once Goku shows up, both with Freiza and Ginyu, Goku sends Gohan awah from the fight for his safety. So yeah they definitely cared about gohan's safety in the previous arcs.
Yes, THANK YOU for pointing out that Goku shamed Gohan into continuing to fight Vegeta. You're the only other person whom I've seen point this out. Overall, the adults tend to favor exploiting Gohan's power and especially his emotional outbursts for power gains in battle. I find that to be a bit questionable when it comes to the issue of Gohan's personal well-being.
I feel the major difference we're not mentioning here is context In Saiyan and Frieza, he is one of if not the only option available at that time Vs Vegeta he was the only one standing and able bodied Maybe Krillin vs Vegeta and have Gohan throw the bomb but (as strange as it is to say) I feel that the responsibility of throwing the bomb is more crushing than the responsibility of fighting someone (then again Gohan doesn't know about the Bomb so idk) In Frieza, there's Vegeta who doesn't care about Gohan or the others, and Krillin Krillin almost immediately nearly dies, and so it's just Gohan and Vegeta until Dende revives Krillin Piccolo shows up and takes over, but once he gets blasted, it's just Krillin and Gohan again as Piccolo is now too weak to help (and again, Vegeta doesn't care about them) Once Goku shows up, then he handles it from there But here, against Cell there are still multiple able bodied fighters available who could fight Cell first (even if they don't have the strength to 1v1 Cell, a war of attrition is a viable strategy here) Vegeta, Trunks, Piccolo, Krillin, Tien, and Yamcha all could have gone before the child had to. Goku could have continued fighting a bit longer, eaten a senzu, or similar Basically, this situation has them push Gohan into danger while other options are available first The other situations often have Gohan as the only available option, so he is forced to participate
Something I've started thinking about the android saga in recent years is that it'd be better if it was split apart. Having the android saga sort of come to some sorta end before we deal with the mystery of Cell. That way we could have a scene where, say, Gohan who's defending his Father's body is able to successfully convince Android 16 not to kill his father while he's still fighting a disease, blocking his body with his own.It could be a moment that shows 16s humanity to Gohan which would make him dying much more of a significant moment but also you could use it as a way to foreshadow how strong Gohan is. In a way that 16 is actually hesitant to engage in combat with Gohan to get to Goku and the androids go on a bit of a sabbatical. During this time we could also play around with Krillin trying to get up the guts to talk to 18 again, perhaps with all the other Z fighters (except maybe Yamcha) telling him that's a terrible idea. Trunks would just be frustrated knowing the Androids are out there able to do whatever they want and that basically nothing has changed. It'd also be a good way to explore the androids characters as just spoiled teenagers who basically have the power to destroy everything in their wake but for the time being are just wasting it being a slight menace to society (I mean if Piccolo can get away with blowing up a stadium I'm sure we can show 17 and 18 raising a bit of hell without making them irredeemable.) I dunno it's just an idea.
About Gohan's "I don't want to kill" thing, that's not him refusing to kill Cell or having some sort of moral dilemma about it, that's just him stating how he has no personal desire to fight or kill Cell. Cell hasn't done anything to truly piss him off yet, so Gohan doesn't really have some sort of truly personal goal to see Cell dead. Yes, he killed those Freeza soldiers, but Gohan doesn't normally have a personal desire to kill things, which is the point. The whole idea of Gohan's speech to Cell was to try to convince Cell that fighting was pointless after realizing what Goku's plan was. Gohan obviously isn't looking to get angry enough to kill or fight somebody to the death, and Cell obviously wouldn't want to die - that's what Gohan meant when he said the fight was pointless, because Goku's plan involves things happening that neither him or Cell really wants to happen (of course, he didn't factor in Cell getting excited at Gohan's power, which was his mistake), and Gohan would rather end things peacefully as opposed to violently. And when the Cell Jrs. came into play, at that point Gohan was trying to bring out his hidden power, but nothing severe enough happened yet to warrant him exploding with rage. It wasn't necessarily pressure that was holding him back, he simply couldn't get angry enough because nobody had died or suffered that bad of an injury. Regardless, I'm thankful you didn't simply label Gohan as being an out-of-character pacifist that refused to fight like many others will do. That was never what the story was trying to communicate.
Hey, I know this comment is three years old, but I wanna throw my two cents on it anyway. I don’t think that beat is out of character, but I do think it’s poorly executed. The fact if the matter is, Gohan had no problems fighting in the previous arc, so this line’s wording comes off as confusing.
@@JW-xd8up The thing is though, what happened before was, Gohan was either forced to fight or had no choice but to. Saiyan Saga - Gohan is forced to fight the Saiyans Frieza Saga - He only went along with them to Namek, to help find the Dragonballs, not to get into any battles, they didn't know about Frieza Android Saga - He had no choice but to train and help, they just heard about the Androids that will kill them. Gohan was never shown with any desire to fight, except when him and Krillin killed Frieza's soldiers, that's the only example really.
Oh man, I didn't expect this but this is great. Great analysis as always. Personally I really wanted Gohan and 16 to develop together even a little to make this moment resonate, or at least focus more on the fact Gohan doesn't want anyone to die- 16 was a rando from Gohan's perspective, but he deserved to live and wasn't a bad person. That's, in my opinion, a workable reason for Gohan to lose it in a moment of such stress- he just saw someone die, which means Cell's threats are REAL and everyone else could start dying for real. Something worth mentioning, about cells Self-destruct (altough you probably already thought about it): On the surface it seems like some contrived bullshit that his self destruct mode doesn't destroy THE ONE CELL required for his whole body to regenerate... But isn't that a potential intentional ability? Cell's powerset and power progression may not make sense upon closer scrutiny, but if I designed a regenerating monster that could blow itself up and I had the option to allow it to continue existing even after exploding... I'd take it. I'd design for it if possible. Literally having your cake and eat it too. PD: WEN BROLI
the relationship between 16 and Gohan is even deeper when you consider 16 was created to kill Goku . makes it all the more powerful that the machine who was designed to murder your father asks you to save the earth for reasons that have nothing to do with 16s own life
I very much agree with the pressure blocking Gohan from being able to do anything. But I don’t think the transformation was that much out of place. 16 being the one to deliver the speech and die really is plot convenience but imo it didn’t matter much who played his part. Not being able to fight back was what drove Gohan crazy. He knew he just needed to break through this mental block but he didn’t know how. He had all this helplessness, expectations, desperation and guilt building inside him and on top of that he was very scared of Cell (for obvious reasons). He wanted to and didn’t want to fight at the same time. So he gets more desperate with every second where he’s unable to do anything, but that just corners and blocks him even more and finally he starts crying and begging and then suddenly there’s a change in atmosphere. His attention shifts to 16 and in the desperate mental state he’s in, I don’t find it hard to believe emotional words hit him hard where they didn’t before. But what I’m getting at is: I think the change in focus threw him out of this block because his attention shifted to something else. For a short while he was put in a bubble where nothing else reached him. He wasn’t aware of being on a stage anymore. He just wanted to make it stop. When 16’s head was suddenly crushed by Cell (who was pretty much the embodiment of Gohan’s fears at this point) it just flipped the switch. That’s how I feel about it. Then there’s TFS’s version that adds a couple more layers to it. Anyway, great work again with this video, looking forward to your dissection of "original" Broli :D
Thanks Lance I really needed this today. I’m having a rough day but these videos provide a wonderful intellectual escape in to Dragon world. God bless!
I think the problem with Gohan as a character is that a lot of people project themselves into the character and don't see him as a person. This ignores that Gohan's easier to write about and is more proactive about stopping threats when main character, while everyone else is hilariously passive and content with letting the bad guy power up. Gohan has his vices, but what when you have a ex-warlord princess like Chi Chi mother, they're understandable. Plus, the anime shows off Gohan doing things, as opposed to Toriyama just telling us in the manga, which allows the former to be more believable. I like the slow pace of the Z anime over Super.
I both hate and love this “Gohan taking the mantle” part of the story. Hate it because there was no real build up to it at all as you said. It’s such an integral part of the story but comes off as little more than Toriyama making it up as he goes along. What would have been a really interesting battle with a villain who knows all the heroes techniques and fighting styles, while also being an interesting revenge story against Goku and friends that looked into the consequences of their actions throughout the series in the form of Cell. Instead we just get Gohan fodderizing an opponent that could have been really interesting. And yet I love it for that same reason. There’s no build up, so it’s completely unexpected and a great shock when it does happen. You expected Goku and friends to defeat Cell, with a death or two here and there, and that would be that. But instead not only does the main character of your shonen manga give up in the middle of the fight, but we’re also forced to watch their child that doesn’t even want to be there be forced to accept his power and fight. Like imagine if you were the child of a shonen protagonist but you just wanted to live a normal life, yet inevitably, you’d be thrust into world shattering catastrophes that if you didn’t participate in, everything you knew and love would be gone and it would be your fault. If there were hints and build up it would kinda become cliche and wouldn’t be as shocking as I’m sure it was in 1993. It’s a completely unexpected ending and if Gohan was to become the main character as intended, would have changed the course of the franchise forever in an unexpected way. Hope you’ll touch on that by the way when you get to the Buu arc.
But he SOMEHOW is out and well by the time of the super, and SOMEHOW became strong like a god by fighting off bandits.... the magic of lame writing I guess.
@@a.liguria2698 They showed in the Manga how the wish to revive everyone Cell killed made him come back. Also he appeared at the end of Z during the final Spirit Bomb, so it's not just Super that brought him back. And it was explained that 17 has infinite energy as an android and never needs to rest, so he can train infinitly. If Piccolo can turn from 2nd form Frieza level to being much stronger than Android 20 in just 3 years of normal training on earth, then I can believe 17 becoming that strong with 10 years of training. Oh and everyone has been "strong like a god" since the Namek Saga, because King Kai is a god. Why you have to be such a mindless super hater? Really stupid.
@@JackOfen Maybe because the stakes in super are flat out idiotic? And he managed to gain the same level as a supposed deity (ssjb) more deity than ever, by merely fighting some smugglers... By the way, It's pretty obvious that King Kai is pretty low in the pecking order now, I was referring to something else.
@@a.liguria2698 What do stakes have to do with this? They are not any more or less idiotic than in Z. I don't think you understand that "deity" or "god" is just a title in Dragon Ball. Supreme Kai is the highest god in our universe and could get rekt by a Super Saiyan 2. Also did he just fight poachers or smugglers? How do you know what kind of training he pulled every single day? Plus, it was obvious in the tournament that SSJB Goku is much stronger than 17. So obviously Goku didn't go all out when he tested him.
@13:26 I don't know...anyone ever notice when a parent, family member or another person of authority tells you something that you think is dumb, but when you hear it from a friend or stranger it makes sense? Kind of like a wise old person sitting on a park bench telling the main character something that seems weird at first but turns out to be a powerful lesson (the same kind of thing his parent would tell him but he'd ignore). I know that's a weird analogy but hey it works for me haha
I don't think it's entirely fair to use the ease with which Gohan implicitly killed a few nameless mooks on Namek, against his reluctance to explicitly kill Cell here. Not just because those mooks were nameless fodder either, but also because Gohan wasn't even six years old yet when he went to Namek, where as now he's eleven. Those previous events were literally half a lifetime ago for him and so it's entirely reasonable to believe his attituded shifted over the intervening years. Moreover, it's not even wholly accurate to call Gohan's reluctance to kill being due to pacifism. Really, by Gohan's own admission it has more to do with fear, fear of himself, fear of the collateral damage he could cause if he allowed himself to fly into a blind rage now that he's a Super Saiyan and exponentially more powerful than he was in previous fights.
I mean, those are fair points, to be sure, but at the same time, it's also entirely reasonable to assume that Gohan should have no problem killing the bad guy in order to save the world, in terms of practicality. By at least the Namek Saga, the series reached a point where most antagonists and villains are so evil and unrelenting, that even if you were strong enough to defeat them without killing them, it wouldn't be enough to stop their murderous ways. At that point, killing them becomes the most practical option, especially for characters who can regenerate any lost body part. And as a young and impressionable child, Gohan has spent a lot of time around characters who are willing to kill antagonists for that very reason, for 1-3 arcs at this point. So even if he on some level doesn't want to kill bad guy, it's entirely reasonable that he's been conditioned enough to the act or intent of killing out of necessity, that it should be a normal action for him to perform, out of necessity.
@@kmgyening: You aren't wrong, Gohan really has had a rather traumatic childhood and it wouldn't be at all surprising if being exposed to so much suffering and death turned him into a heartless psychopath. Oh, wait... that's sort of exactly what we see him become when he goes SS2 for the first time, and back to my original point further makes a case for Gohan restraining himself not out of any true sense of pacifism, but rather out of fear of his own rage. It's not that Gohan doesn't want to kill Cell because he thinks all life is precious, he's just afraid that in the process of killing one monster he might himself become an even worse monster.
@@EmeralBookwise To be clear: I wasn't suggesting that Gohan should be conditioned to be more disposed toward psychopathic behavior. I was saying that his constant exposure to seeing his friends and family kill bad guys or fight then with the intent to kill them, both out of necessity and not psychopathy, likely could or should have desensitized him to committing or intending to commit the act, out if necessity and practicality. In simpler terms, it's entirely reasonable to expect that constantly being exposed to those situations should have led him to "know the drill" by this time. If killing bad guys out of necessity isn't new to him, then why should he fear losing control in the act of killing one more bad guy out of necessity?
@@kmgyening: Except, when has Gohan ever seen any of his friends or family killing? Piccolo killed Raditz, but Gohan was unconscious at the time. Nappa or the Ginyu Force? Nope, Goku only ever incapacitated them. It was Vegeta who dealt the killing blows, and he was still a badguy himself back then. Goku even let Frieza live. Trunks later finished the job, but that was before Gohan even new who Trunks was.
@ Morph Ball You're entitled to feel that way, and I'll continue to do everything my power to not come across that way. However, in my own defense, I must disagree in this case. I find the claim especially confusing given the example you pick, which is simply incorrect. I never used that moment to "prove that Goku's childish" unless there's some other time I brought it up that I am completely blanking on. I made an offhand joke about it in regards to MasakoX's vocal performance as the character in Dragon Ball Z Abridged, as well as implicitly poking fun at the prevailing attitude of that time that, thanks to the English dub's rewriting of Goku, a lot of fans were totally oblivious that adult Goku has that childlike naiveté as a facet of his character. That's certainly not the conversation nowadays, since modern Dragon Ball has cranked that trait up to absurd degrees to the point that it's impossible to miss. And because of that caricaturization annoying me, I even replayed that very moment and disavowed that statement in The Cell Arc Part 3. I'm afraid I honestly cannot see how (and I did go back to watch it now just to be sure) you could possibly interpret such an all-encompassing critique on Goku's character from a ten-second quip I made seven years ago.
It's funny how perceptions change as you age. Growing up in the late 90's/early 2000's, the Android and Cell Arcs were my favorite part of DBZ, and Gohan's day in the limelight was the high point of the entire series for me. Maybe it was just the power fantasy of seeing a kid your age (I was literally Gohan's age when the Cell Games aired on Toonami) picking apart older and stronger villains, but I really was invested in Gohan's story and his coming of age. Looking back at it now, it would have been great to see Toriyama develop Gohan's reluctance to fight beyond just laziness/wants to be a scholar. I still love SSJ2 Kid Gohan and the drastic change in his character when he unlocks that power. Him being terrified of that side of himself and not wanting to rely on it (a la Aang in Avatar: The Last Airbender) would be a much better motivator for why he doesn't push himself to get stronger. Or have his character arc be learning to control that side of himself and use it for the right reasons. Instead Gohan's hidden rage isn't brought up at all after Cell, and he doesn't train himself because he isn't motivated.
Awesome analysis as always Lance. Is it me or did we go pretty quickly through the Super Saiyan 2 stuff? I’d love to see more analysis on that (as well as Goku’s sacrifice) in the next DBD. But first WenBroly haha.
Gohan really doesn't belong here. This arc has nothing to do with him. He fills in Goku's role of being everyone's last minute hero. I find it ironic that the arc Gohan has the smallest role is when he is taking his father's mantle. He telling Cell the Cell Games are pointless is a fantastic point. The fact that a "tournament" is the deciding factor of the Earth's fate ridiculous. The last tournament had that same problem but here the scale of the threat it far larger making it feel even more ridiculous. Back on topic the series built up to this moment eventually happening. This arc doesn't have build up of it but this is the arc it culminates. Goku makes the mistake of misunderstanding Gohan but in a relatable way. He upon realizing his mistakes tries to fix it. So you see him try to atone for it. That is what a parent is supposed to do. They make mistakes with their children and then fix it. People really exaggerate it as Goku being a terrible father. He is not a perfect parent but neither is anyone else. He in the least doesn't ever abuse his son and think little of him. This whole section is him doing the complete opposite of Vegeta in this arc. Toriyama at this point seems to not understand how to have the strongest guy be around before the climax. Gohan here also needs to have his development from before redone. It is really only a thing to facilitate drama. The Cell Jr's reminds me of the Saibimen too. 16 and his speech are both pointless. 16 like the entire rest of the arc is just there. His speech is pretty much what Goku told Gohan already. So clearly it wouldn't work. Hell Cell knew this which is why he went to such lengths to anger Gohan. 16's death is not reason enough for Gohan to snap. These two only have that one conversation. Freeza killing Kurrin works so much better as the impetuous behind Goku snapping. Cell's self destruct is such plot specific and forced devise. Cell hand waves explanations as to why he can't be stopped. I love Kaio's reaction to Goku bringing a ticking time bomb bug man to his home. Oh that wacky Toriyama. Movie 8 has such a bizarre generic title like most of the movies. I have a difficult time remembering it. I can't wait for you to dissect it and the finale of this arc.
16, like Gohan, is a pacifist.That's literally the end all of the parallel and you need nothing else. 16, who is basically Gohan's conscience personified in that scene, assures him that it is okay to fight *for the right reasons.* Just like Gohan he values life and fighting to protect said life is justified. It makes absolute sense that he is the one to trigger Gohan's ascension. You could argue Gohan had no interaction with him prior,band so shouldn't know they are similar. That is a valid critique. But the notion that 16 had no business being the catalyst is false.
Also it is a valid critique that Gohan had little business being the ultimate hero, at least somewhat. I could argue that he being Trunk's mentor in his timeline makes his role here serve a purpose, to inspire Trunks once and for all to free his timeline on his own. Is the execution well done? Hell no, if even intentional at all (probably not). It does seem out of left field in the manga, admittedly. But the anime does a much better job at building to Gohan's role in the tournament, especially during the filler just before the Cell games. Obviously this doesn't excuse Toriyama, but personally I don't think it is so much botched as it is lacking.
About the Gohan killing those 2 guys on Namek. Gohan is 5 years older than he was there. So maybe it's simply that his outlook has changed through maturity.
Yeah, you could say the same with Goku, about his no killing thing, he had no problem doing that before, but that was back when he was a more reckless child.
There is one thing that a lot of people forget about the whole Piccolo yelling at Goku thing. Piccolo’s argument is that Goku should’ve told Gohan about his plan because Gohan isn’t like him sure but also because since he doesn’t know, he’s doesn’t understand what’s expected of him ( and is wondering why his dad isn’t coming to save him bla bla bla ) However, Gohan does know. He’s shown in the very previous scene leading up to that one, explaining why his father brought him into this. Despite Piccolo’s assertions he, at no point during or after that scene, is seen exhibiting the behavior Piccolo is talking about. ( wondering why his father isn’t trying to come to the rescue ) This, along with him continually being surprised by Gohan’s power shows just how out of tune Piccolo is with his pupil ever since he came out of the RoSaT. Btw, why doesn’t Goku tell him ? Probably for the exact reasons stated in the later portion of the video. "I’m gonna need you to get mad, and unleash your hidden potential Gohan !" would probably not work, as demonstrated.
Because not only guessing at goku's agenda meaning clearly wasn't fully aware of goku's plan, and arguing with someone that throwing your kid into a death match because of a hunch you have that he may win is a bad idea would make the character in question look like scum.
Kye Dysarthria | What ? Obviously the intention on Toriyama’s part wasn’t to make Goku look like scum. But yeah, Gohan wasn’t "aware" of it in the sense that Goku didn’t tell him outright but he guessed it fine. Like it’s said in the video, telling you to "get angry to unleash your full potential !" on cue isn’t super effective. And if we’re on authorial intent it’s clearly more than "just a hunch" and more of a foreshadowing. And from an in-universe perspective it’s an informed assumption that supposedly relies on Gokū’s knowledge of combat and of his son’s potential, which isn’t rare in fiction at all ( to be able to guess with great accuracy wildly random things based on your supposed knowledge of a topic, I mean. ) Overall I don’t get what your point is, it’s not super clearly worded tbh, so if you feel like I misrepresented what you said, please feel free to clarify.
im glad he dissects the shitty part of z aka past freeza and I agree with his points on stupid cell and gohan but I wish he would get back to talking about original dragonball the best part of the series ..once raditz came down I stopped caring...gohan is a gary stu fan fic character even more so then boruto is.....hes so horrible as a idea and he was just a marketable kid character for shonnen jump.thats all he was
@@MistareFusion Just wanna say something, when people say Vegeta is a better Dad than Goku, they're referring to Buu Saga onwards. The examples you posted of him being a worse one, was when he was still a bad guy, who cared about no one but himself. I don't think anyone says Android and Cell Saga Vegeta is better.
Gohan has ALWAYS enjoyed fighting, especially when helping people out, going on adventures etc. He has also always enjoyed learning and discovering things and thoroughly enjoys times of peace and rest. It's when people force him to do one or the other that he seems as though he dislikes either. He is half Saiyan and half Human: he lives in both worlds and is pulled between them at all times. Having him be a dedicated fighter all the time like his dad is a disservice to his character just like sticking him in a library/office forever is a disservice to his character, and yet people are always arguing about which would be more fitting for him? A fulfilled Gohan would feasibly manage both. Dragon Ball Super actually has him in a really good place characterwise in both the Manga and Anime, in each having him value his family, studies, and his more docile nature while accepting the responsibility of being a protector and allowing himself time to train and fight without succumbing to his Saiyan bloodlust. People always roll their eyes at the Saiyaman stuff in the series (kind of the point of it) but it really is a natural fit for Gohan's character. He wants his privacy and ability to unwind without him and those he loves being constantly threatened, but he wants to stand up for others and right wrongs with his potential. A masked hero persona ala Spider-man is perfect for him and balancing that responsibility. Package it with the campy nature of Dragon Ball and everything fits. Goku is a Saiyan raised by humans but Gohan is a Saiyan raised AS a human, because he is one as well. Gohan was 11 when he fought Cell... The same age Goku was in DB when he first ran into Bulma. Goku at that age had recently lost his father figure too and had to grow up with his friends and masters guiding him, but Kid Gohan ALWAYS had his mother, something Goku never experienced. There's a LOT to unpack there that Goku and Gohan both carry around with them. I wish they'd have a moment where they share this stuff, it would be great for both of them.
I don't think Gohan ever enjoyed fighting. He just had to. In the Saiyan Saga, he was forced to fight, Frieza Saga, he only went along with them to help find the Dragon Balls, not to do any battles, then in the Android Saga, once again, it was something he had to do.
Been re-reading the manga due to Toriyama's passing and i honestly agree with alot of your points on the Android/Cell Saga. I feel its more flawed than people realize. In regards to Gohan, as much as fans complain about how he is written from Buu Saga onwards, i feel the decline in his character actually starts here. Yeah, SS2 transformation & Father-Son Kamehameha r cool but as u said, he actually plays a rather inconsequential role for the most of the arc. Its a huge contrast to Saiyan & Namek Saga Gohan where he was an active character who was highly involved in the plot
Just because he was less involved doesn't mean his character got bad. Remember that this was the first arc where a number of characters got a chance to be the strongest. The focus was on Piccolo, Vegeta, and Trunks, getting their development, and Gohsn did get his with SSJ and then during the Cell fight.
Personally, I don’t think Gohan was hurt by 16’s death. I think it was just a wake up call. His friends and family could die just like that- no remorse, no ceremony. Their lives could be gone in the blink of an eye, and it’d be Gohan’s fault. It’s one thing to know it, it’s another thing to see it.
@@MistareFusion I know people will say that's filler, but at least the English version, the narrator makes a specific reference to garlic Jr after gohan transforms.
I was waiting for this since watching the first episode of DBD. Lots of interesting stuff. I mostly agree too, with only a bit of difficulty to understand "who cares who this character dying is he never did anything important mindset." 16's death broke my heart as a kid and I have no issue with it triggering Gohan to go berserk. That being said I can't argue narratively it's cheap and unnatural. I never really questioned it when I was younger but in hindsight from the Saiyan Arc to now, it's easy enough to accept Gohan's character as he is presented in this fight but it's easy to see how it could come as a surprise. I never even really noticed Gohan did Jack all this entire arc until you mentioned it.
16 didn't have too much time in the story, he was pretty much non existent during this part of the saga, so his death wasn't that emotional. The anime gave him a bit more screen time, especially when he was being fixed, which kinda helped. As for him triggering Gohan, my whole issue with that is, he had no interaction with 16. That certainly shouldn't have triggered him, he didn't know the guy.
Great breakdown here, to be honest I was never super invested in Gohan and found his OP-ness to be more vexing than engaging, though fandom wanking it didn't help. I confess, I never got the impression he liked adventures, so much as went on then out of a sense of obligation, but that is just me. However I really liked your breakdown on Goku's character, th narratives surrounding Gohan how disconnected certain characters were, super solid stuff. And though I know you were joking, on Piccolo, well that was pre redemption, one expects Goku to be better than a technical villain XD
8:40 you should’ve put the scene where vegeta tells his own he don’t give a shit about them when trunks had to save bulma and his infant self from not existing
Oh that would had strengthened his point. I feel a lot of fans forget that. Or maybe they don't and they bring up what Goku does in the next arc. Something that is very similar if you know what I'm referring to.
5:49 - 6:18 Well, that was five years ago in-universe (six if you count the year Gohan spent in the Time Chamber). A lot of emotional maturity can happen in that time, especially when it is essentially half your lifespan up to that point. Gohan was five when he did that. I look back at a lot of the things I used to do when i was five, and I am fucking mortified at how horrible a person I was back then. For example, I used to literally laugh when I overheard my dad in the other room beating my mom! I remember my sister telling me that it's not funny, and now, I 100% agree with her, but at the time, I saw it as no different than the slapstick comedy I saw on TV. Gohan (A) wasn't old enough yet to have a conscience, and (B) was told to do it, not by a total stranger or an older kid on the playground, but by a grown-up man who his mom and dad explicitly said was trustworthy.
And this is where we can be grateful of DragonBall Z Kakarot as the game atleast tried giving Gohan and 16 an establish friendship protecting animals from poachers
Android 16 seems like the Gwen Stacy of Dragon Ball. When Gwen Stacy was introduced into the Spider-Man comics, she wasn't interesting in the slightest. She was the most normal girl out of all of Peter Parker's girlfriends, with the only kind of interesting thing being that her dad was a cop while Spider-Man was still technically a vigilante. The whole point of it was to give Peter an anchor of normalcy to connect with when he's not wearing the webs. But it came at the sacrifice of Gwen possibly being interesting, so she was killed off, and THAT became the one interesting thing about her character that caused people to latch onto her until Spider-Gwen happened and was infinitely more compelling. Android 16 has always had hype about him from the moment Gero refused to let him out of the pod, but he didn't really do much. Granted, hyping up 16 with a prophecy of doom is probably just something that Toriyama forgot to address when he shifted from the Androids to Cell as the main threat, but whatever. He refused to fight anyone except Goku due to a mix of programming and a naturally pacifistic personality. Not to invoke my childhood here, but in the early Funimation dub of Gohan ascending, they added internal dialogue where Gohan mused that even a fully mechanical being like Android 16 was able to love nature and dislike fighting. Much like how Gohan himself is bring portrayed as a pacifist that would rather hit the books than fight. Which isn't necessarily a betrayal of what Gohan was thinking in that moment, just something that crushes the impact of the transformation by giving voice to silent thoughts. So the idea, from where I stand, was probably supposed to be along those lines. Even a machine could develop Gohan's personality morals, and even then, they were able to do what was needed in the moment while Gohan couldn't, when said machine would still be around and friends would be less beaten up if Gohan stepped up. Not necessarily executed in the best of ways, but assuming I'm not overthinking it, it's a decently baked idea, if nothing else.
Actually, when Gwen Stacy was first introduced, she was interesting. Fiesty, a bit of a bitch, trying to get Peter's attention and angered at his indifference (usually because he was worried about his Aunt). Similar to Videl. Once her dad was introduced, her characterization lessened to the 'Daddy's Girl' who cries a lot, although (like Videl in the Barry Kahn/SaiyaMan Movie Arc) she still retained some fire, like slapping a protestor or shouting at Aunt May.
You know, i have always liked the idea of Gohan taking Goku's role as the main character, with Goku finally passing on to the next life on his very last battle, i mean, one of the moments i enjoyed most in my rewatch of DBZ was the early Majin Buu saga with the Great Saiyaman stuff. I think the appeal with Gohan becoming the new main character is that unlike most of the "Son takes the Father's place" kind of stories... Gohan is VERY different to Goku, and i love that, other series try to make the son of the main character be just a complete copy of his father so the transition doesn't alienate fans but just ends up making they miss the og main character, Gohan on the other hand was not a complete opposite to Goku but they certainly would react very different to many situations, they have a different approach to battle, Gohan can get angry more easy, Gohan doesn't actively seek out for stronger opponents... So it's a shame this plot line was thrown into the side fully at the end of the Buu Saga so we could have more Goku and Vegeta and make Gohan lose because of him getting too confident... Because you know, it's not like he learned not to do that in the previous arc, no way!
I've always liked Gohan suddenly being thrown in like that, there's no story arc per say for when, how and why things happen in real life and I love that style approach to story telling
@@fightingmedialounge519 everyone doesn't enjoy stories the same way my friend. Some people actually have their own minds and approach to things. Regardless of what Dragon Ball is missing, its still successful and will continue to be, simple because of its uniqueness.
However real life isn’t going to be split up as rigidly as something like dbz is. The structure of dbz is story, timeskip with no big story, story, timeskip, etc. If it was a lot harder to split dbz up into sagas, this could’ve worked a lot better. But each saga is its own story in a way, and considering at this point they’re pretty long, it’s more removed from relevant gohan moments.
@@blogsanjay1031 This isn't about enjoying the story or not, I think many of us enjoy the Cell arc including me, but when talking about Writing we refer to the quality of it. What it did good or bad. And it was bad the lack of focus on Gohan and 16. From a narrative stand point.
Considering how this story is started by Future Gohan inspiring Future Trunks, it would've been great if Future Trunks got to likewise inspire Gohan and get him to begin making steps into the main character role.
I think people compare Vegeta treating his kid better in a sense that they look at Cell Arc Goku letting his son fight Cell without help and later on purposely let Boo alive unlike Vegeta in the Boo Saga onwards which include Super and GT in which he is a much better father compared to Goku to them. I really didn't like that 16 had to be killed so Gohan decides that he surpasses SSJ. Also why didn't Cell use any of its countless moves instead of a self-destruct attack, buffing himself up like Trunks and use the most generic energy beam attack named Kamehameha? Well, curious what you gonna say about the original Broly movie. Will it subvert my expectation? Or will you call Broly being a terrible character for hating Goku because he somehow remembers he cried as a baby and apparently has no personality like anyone who doesn't like classic Broly?
Paragus is the main antagonist of the film with Broly being the secondary antagonist with all the power. This role shifts after Paragus is killed by Broly. Broly does have a personality and its built i think well around what the characters roles are in the movie very organically. The crying thing is funny i just cant see it as anything as a joke played for laughs.
Looking back on it, the Gohan vs Cell fight onwards didn’t feel organic. Cell backed into a corner in a manner that spits out the only one of the two (till Super made 17 incredibly popular again) cyborgs/Androids/Jinzoningen that people wanted to be saved in case the heroes killed Cell with both androids inside of him and decided to kill himself in a way that Goku can be taken out of the fight while still on his own terms and not having his badassery be diminished by the worf effect. It requires Cell to drastically change his personality from a fight- loving, battle savvy narcissist to a dullard who makes the same mistakes that he specifically scolded Future Trunks earlier on to a dirty smug snake type bomb terrorist coward to justify said action. If the story ended on that note, I would’ve considered this to be the worst arc of the series. It would’ve made more sense if Goku lost outright leading to his death, it forces Gohan to fight out of revenge, but it’s not enough. So Cell decides the Cell Jr tactic, but 16 does his kamikaze tactic- except it’s not removed- so the bomb destroys Cell. Only for it to be for nothing as Cell regenerates from it anyway. Gohan in despair and rage goes SSJ2 reactively to disintegrate Cell- destroying the Cell Jrs first, only for Cell to return as Super Perfect Cell. This makes Gohan doubt himself until the pep talk from Goku gives him the resolve to destroy Cell to the last....well Cell. It wouldn’t have felt as odd. And they can also wish back the twins later.
True but then he is naive in seriously thinking Cell would just pack it up and leave. He has seen terribly evil people kill without remose. He knows Cell is the same way yet his stubbornness almost gets everyone killed.
Just found this series this week and I blitzed through all of it. Just wanted to say watching this has been wonderful it reminds me of plenty of the reasons I love Dragon ball and had had me thinking on aspects I hadn't really thought of before. So keep up the amazing work I can't wait to hear what you have to say about thw rest of this arc.
"Entering into a conflict where he has no personal stake" I don't know about that, if Cell wins he blows up the world, the world that Gohan lives on, as well as everyone he cares about. I think that works
That is not a personal stake. A personal stake would be if there was history between the two. There isn't any to speak of. Cell threatening to destroy the Earth is a planetary stake. That applies to everyone but the one who defeats doesn't have any connection with Cell. Gohan is just there because the plot demands it.
I wish 16 and Gohan got more development together and had a similar relationship to Eighter and Goku had. Maybe they could have bonded over being mostly peaceful beings that are put into positions where they must fight, Gohan could ask why he is always fighting in these scenarios and what makes him different from a machine without agency just going along with what others tell him to do, always being reactive and involved in other people's problems. That would actually reinforce his stage fright when Cell and Goku are relying on him to get angry when he just doesn't want to. That all could have developed that over the week they had off before the Cell games since 16 could have been fixed at any time and Goku/Gohan have no reason not to pop into Capsule Corp. Edit* Shit you basically said the same thing in a later video of yours!
It came to my realization that this exact duality between the non - killing (Human) and kill em all with one blow (Saiyan) is a major point for the character in super. And the "identity searching" is quite a big deal. Vegeta being more human like, Goku referring to himself as kakarot at the end of Broly... It is something that can really take the story telling of the franchise to a whole new level
This is a really good video. I do think 16's speech fits pretty well. He tells him that the pressure is on like Goku... but addresses something else as well. Gohan is afraid he'll be a monster if he doesn't hold back. 16 assures him he won't. That he can give his all without falling because he is a better PERSON (rather than warrior) than Gohan thinks. Considering his general unwillingness to fight, 16 is a more matured version of Gohan's own kinder nature. That's my take anyway
4:15 I think that Gohan discarded Piccolo's mantel because it is weighted, not because he wanted to pick up his father's mantel in a figurative manner. In fact, Gohan was mimicing Piccolo by discarding his mantel because Piccolo does the same thing when he gets serious in a fight.
People always say that Cell spitting out a bunch of miniature copies is an outlandish hat pull, but he WAS created by a scientist who thought that Saiyan conflict was the greatest battle ever fought. I think a little aside where Gero's robot grabs some dirt where the saibamen grew and sticks it in the computer that's building cell would fit right in with the other stuff in this arc.
Gohan has to struggle between two worlds (his alien saiyan fighting blood and the human, more settled and sort of relaxed human world). I always saw it as Gohan's arch to compromise and balance these two. It's like you said also, Chichi made the mistake to push him to be a scholar only while Goku got so optimistic with Gohan's talent that he projected himself on Gohan, making the same mistake as Chichi when she does it. Now, with Vegeta being a better father, people ignore that it was after Goku's death he became a better parental figure due to how Goku treated his son and not only survived but WON against Cell (with Vegeta's help but hey! Gohan did it! *cough*) and his son Trunks was killed- in front of him nonetheless. Vegeta reflected he made a mistake in the Time Chamber training with Trunks (Trunks didn't even tell Vegeta about his extra muscular Super Saiyan form, afraid of daddy Vegeta's temper- you know) and decided not to go that route in this new chance for a different future.
Good review. I was initially afraid you would take the 'Gohan was a born fighter and all that scholar stuff is BS' stance, but you give a holistic 'Gohan likes both adventure and studying' look (which you already commented upon in the second DBZ film dissection). But I do believe the end of the Manga happens about 16 years later, not 26.
I always had a problem with the way Team Four Star handled Gohan's character arc & that scene in particular with him needing to power up against Cell. They played it off as Gohan being too much of a pansy to do anything, when that wasn't true. I kinda get what they were going for, but even in their Abridged parody version of the series, it doesn't add up. Even with their version of Gohan, it doesn't make sense for their version.
I feel like TFS started faltering once they started to take DBZA as a serious representation of the series from partway through the Androids Arc. In the first two arcs, it was a simple (yet great) parody, but then it ended up devolving, with all due respect to the hardworking creators, into a glorified fanfic.
I disagree. They said themselves that Season 3 was a love letter to the franchise &, if you actually rewatch Season 2, THAT'S where they really started taking it more seriously. And if you actually look at Season 3, it's still a funny show, it's just a different flavor of their humor. It's more situational than outright farce. Not that I don't enjoy Season 2, but it's just more farcical, & Season 1, up until episode 10, is just unpolished, low quality, & of the time. I don't mind that they started treating Season 3 differently, honestly. It gave a lot of good jokes & will probably age the best of the first 3, since Season 1 hasn't aged well & Season 2 has a few cracks already showing. If you look at some of the best sitcoms & parodies, they're more like Season 3 of DBZA than Season 1 or 2. Where I find fault with it, however, is where TFS keep going with stupid fanon shit like "Goku's a bad father, Piccolo's a better father, Vegeta's a better father" & the like, even though those aren't true. What I was also talking about was the forced message they tried to do with Gohan being a weak pansy, even though their version of Gohan didn't have that in his previous scenes at any point in the series. What should've happened was that Gohan should've been called out on his emo bullshit, but I'm hoping for that in Season 4. Season 3 also didn't "devolve." In all reality, it was an evolution. The comedy grew more better (there were still traces of what they had from earlier, but it was more subtle & situational, as I said already) & they finally had a grip on the characters they didn't before...for the most part. Everything got better in Season 3, but there are a few cracks still, but I think it turned out really good. The fact that TFS influenced Little Kuriboh to up the quality of Yugioh Abridged when they were originally copying _him_ because he started the whole thing is a plus because his show NEEDED it. They revolutionized the Abridging genre, which is very impressive. I don't think that was any small accomplishment either. They've become very successful people & that is due to Season 3 being as good as it is.
As for "glorified fanfic," I can see that. They definitely fixed some of the story problems inherent in the original work, but it's far from just a comedic take on the series.
I really like SSJ2 Gohan debut. But in recent years, i’ve been thinking that there’s some kind of backward movement going. And that is the idea of getting angry to win against the enemy after a year of training to control and master the super saiyan form. What do you think about this, Mistare ?
Do you mean the stuff super did with him? I know you didn't ask me but... I think Super mostly did Gohan Justice because after this arc has shown that Gohan doesn't want to only focus on fighting nor studying all the time so the next logical step would be him trying to handle both at the same time. And the Saiyaman episodes were either very funny or developed his family a bit more for example how Videl trusts Gohan not to cheat on her.
I loooove love love your vids! But I will try and counter your point on 16's death being pointless, Now yes, I agree that for better story telling purposes I feel during the 9 day wait Gohan should have visited Bulma while she was repairing 16, thus would have opened a one to one talk between Gohan and 16 about the conflict 16 has where he wants to kill Goku but he loves life. However I feel the scene still hold some weight even if they don't know each other cause there are times in real life where ppl won't listen to what family, and friends say but when a stranger tells them the same thing, that's when it can really open your eyes, this happens only cause we have this comfort zone where we may not listen to others we know or take their advice for granted just cause it feels like we heard it 1000 times, but when a stranger says it and dies after it may be something that starts to hit personally, cause Gohan's whole character arc conflict is that he's isn't strong enough to protect the ppl he cares about. As a toddler he was strong but not strong enough to save Goku from dying, PIccolo died cause he wasn't strong enough to attack Nappa when he was open, Yamcha, Tien and Choaitzu, died to Nappa as well cause Gohan was too afraid. Krillin and Vegeta, died to Freeza becaue he wasn't strong enough, and now 16 a person he doesn't even know is dying due to his lack of action. That hits him harder.
I mean a robot who actually likes nature & really doesn't want to hurt innocent lives motivating gohan it's ok to fight & let yourselves lose sounds very fitting 🤷♂️
@nicholas I dunno but i want to do that in an alt fight of pan u16 vs Cell if she didn't kill him while he's badly injured in an version of Dragon Ball Multiverse to show Pan's respect, afterall in my version Vegito DID let old Kai release her potential and be ultimate, thus not dying by bojack aka the guy who her father killed many years ago in u16
Apologies for being a little late. This was another fantastic video by you and I’m so happy you talked about the ‘Goku not actually being a bad father’ thing. However, I do slightly disagree about the point you made about Gohan not being apart to the story until now. While true, he’s at least still been doing stuff or at least somewhat attached to what’s happening in the story. Unlike Goku in the Frieza Arc, who was just stuck in a pod for most of it, Gohan has always been there since the beginning. While true he hasn’t really fought, he’s still always been apart of the story in someway. I just can’t agree fully to say he didn’t belong in the final acts of the Arc because he was still around and experiencing everything going on in the story.
Personally, the way that cell nervously explains his explosion to Gohan makes me think that he was bluffing. after all, why take a villain at his word? it's only natural that cell would wanna do what he can to prevent Gohan from undoing his final act of rebellion. Yeah, it's understandable that Gohan and/or the others might not wanna take the risk but still, i find it funny that everyone takes cell at his words about his dumb self destruct.
But sadly, this is what they are now, in the super... Geico (I refuse to call that dumbass with his name) got über flanderized to dumbass, to the point that he acts way too immaturely to have meaningful moments with the family, and putting EVERYTHING on danger (times 8~9 if I am correct because it is fun, and not getting scolded for it doesn't help. Whereas Vegeta's scenes with the family, are still a drastic departure in better, from his character in the cell arc, truly showing his growth in a better person.
Another awesome video. Time for my timestamps that few if any will notice. 7:35, one could make the character development/self-imposing (The word for projecting yourself onto others?) argument for Piccolo. He did it, but when he died, he regretted this action. For Chichi, I think Gohan growing to reject her extremism, only to go along with her in the end, is rather reflective of reality. Not exactly "It's just a phase, mom", but similar. Hating the haystack but discovering the needle later. Wow. Never really considered all the plot-specific powers at play until I watched this series.
Love this ep. the “goku is a bad father” has become a meme that takes everything out of context. It’s annoying. I really like the the moment of goku realizing the mistake he’s made, putting way too much confidence & his views unto his son, who, is not similar to himself. Really humanizes goku.
Its annoying to me because it feels like criticism today is beginning to gear more and more towards a lack of understanding that characters can make mistakes too and learn from them It’s literally the most basic form of things necessary to give a story actual weight. What kind of interesting story consists of characters doing nothing but make the right choices 24/7? A character doesn’t have to be relatable in order to be good, just understandable. The issue is that, even when a characters motives ARE understandable and directly vocalized and televised within the series itself and you literally see them grow and learn from it, you STILL get mfs who praddle on about how much of a monster of a dad cell arc goku is (when vegeta is literally RIGHT there). Tbh i wholly blame shit like cinemasins and nostalgia critic for making this type of criticism becoming the norm. Like it gets to a point where they’re just blaming the story/writer for their literal inability to pay attention 💀
Gohan was never a "pacifist" only a scare child, the pacifist thing comes out of nowhere and i can't believe the gohan fanboys keep pretending is a part of his character, when gohan wanted to fight and help in the past arcs. by the way goku was right.
Well Gohan is older at this point and his dad is pressuring him by living though him to beat a being that wants to enjoy himself who's also putting pressure on him... It's all a game to them in a way plus he's at the point in power that he see himself more of threat to the planet than cell, Gohan being a pacifist is maybe came out of nowhere but it makes sense after he's knowing what he's dealing with.
Gohan doesn't belong here?
More like Gohan doesn't want to be here.
A little of column A and of column B.
And to an extent one is the consequence of the other 😛
Spartan Q77 Well, no, it’s a statement that relies on your premise to be correct whereas yours doesn’t rely on mine.
no gohan doesnt need to be there..he sucks...gokus story being taken over by his bland son who we as fans would not give a shit about if the show started with him is pretty lame to end a series with or end a character like goku who for the first time ever can't beat the foe..really?..smdh….god thats lame..i just hate the cell stuff
Gohan: D-Dad, I want to go home...
Goku: KICK HIS ASS, GOHAN!
Gohan: D-Dad, Cell is literally hugging me to death...
TWO CHAPTERS IN A MONTH?!
Why lance you spoil us
Technically this is July now but yea this was quick. That maybe because this is close to the finish line of this arc. I seen that the end of the Freeza arc he put up the last of it up quickly. He has been doing this arc for a year and a half like that arc. Geez how long will it take for him to finish the Boo arc? Since you know that arc is so damn long. Like this arc it really doesn't need to be so long either.
adam briton oof
I agree with you on Gohan, he was interested in doing Goku stuff and going off to adventure, but also wanted to have a real life and be a scholar, i think his Great Saiyaman era is Gohan in his most genuine, because he only developed his secret identity to help fight crime and have some adventures, while keeping a low profile and studying as Son Gohan and achieve both of his wishes.
That is a good point nobody ever seems to mention.
Also that Gohan cares about protecting others.
I won't say you are wrong, but I really like the idea of Gohan VS Cell becuse it's Goku's legacy confronting Goku's consequences.
I saw it inheritance and destiny. With goku gone gohan will be the strongest. With gero gone cell is the only android left to become perfect and kill son goku.
@@josesosa3337 buu arc exist, meaning that idea is out the window, also Akira didn't want Goku out the picture for good, making the Cell portion of the arc pointless
I can't even call it "Goku's consequences", because nothing about Cell was a consequence about Goku except for arguably giving him the senzu.
Cell already comes from a timeline with no Goku in it to stop him.
Goku was not the catalyst for either of Cell's transformations. That was 17, Vegeta, and Krillin (and to a lesser extent Trunks)
Goku couldn't step in until he really had to because he was expecting Vegeta to hurry up, but he eventually saves Piccolo & Tenshinhan anyway.
No one tries to punch Cell in the face during the 10 day wait because Cell actually does keep his promise except for self-defense by the military, giving them time to train and everything.
Goku genuinely gives it his all when he fights Cell.
This is probably the closest you could get to "Goku did nothing wrong."
@@Vegeto30294 Well, I meant Goku's consequences as in Cell was created to kill Goku. Maybe I should use another word.
@@Vegeto30294 It's consequence in its neutral form and not purely in its negative definition.
Cell was made by the Red Ribbon Army, which Goku destroyed and whom the group sought vengeance on. Cell also contains the data of every villain Goku has defeated from their techniques and supposedly their memories/ambitions too. And while DB as a whole doesn't really support this, Cell is the embodiment of his dangerous challengers that Goku feared was putting the Earth in danger.
I don't think the arc is written well enough to support all this, but the idea is there.
You can't really put too much blame on Goku for wanting Gohan to become a fighter. Before Raditz came he was perfectly find with letting him study and actually told him to run when things got dangerous, it's only after seeing Gohan's hidden power and wanting help in a battle that he actually choose him to be his successor.
goku willingly staying dead has always annoyed me..so has going to train uub to end z the end of super with him vs vegeta and the end of gt...the original dragonball has always had the best ending to me....maybe they really should of ended the series on freeza...it just got stupid after that didnt it?..like who cares?...what was that like 8-9 years into the manga when that started
Goku said in the beginning, before Raditz, that he wanted to train Gohan, but Chi Ci wouldn't allow it.
Successor to what? In order to be a successor to something, you have to have a defined role for them to take on. Goku is the hero for the audience, he is not a hero in his own story. He has made far too many questionable decisions to be given such an honor. And even if that were not the case... Goku nor anyone else ever defines him as such. He is just the guy fortunate enough (due to plot convenience) to be able to train a bit before fighting the big fight. No one ever really looks to Goku unless they already know he is preparing for said fight. When Goku is on his death, Piccolo doesn't wait. He swallows his pride because GOKU ISN'T FUCKING TRAINING FOR ANYTHING nor is he going to be the beneficiary of a plot mandated power up after being healed. They don't worship Goku, again he just happens to be the most qualified due to plot convenience.
So is Goku stroking his own ego? Probably. He wants Gohan to be him. He thinks someone has to be him. As I've said before, Goku is a person who is 100% reactionary to the moment. He trained with Gohan for a year, forced to be around him, and as such he naturally grew close to him. You know when else that happened? *When he spent more then a few minutes with basically anyone who isn't blown up before the next arc.* He befriends everyone he comes into contact with. There is a manga full of evidencet. This is no different. Gohan is not a son to him, he is a friend. When Goku realizes his mistake, he feels the need to be Goku again. When Cell threatens to blow up the planet, he jumps in happily because he can be Goku. He stays dead because he is Goku, he is 100% in the moment and at that moment he is in other world thinking of the prospect of training for eternity. He just made that decision on a whim. He couldn't care less about his son or Earth because Gohan is just Kurririn, just Blooma, just anyone on the Dragon team he had no qualms with parting with throughout the manga.
This is why Toriyama does not view him as a good person, just someone whose predisposition lends him to happen to be a hero due to circumstance and not some conscious decision. All of Goku's actions, yes even helping the turtle, prove this. Why? The turtle was there. He saw it, he sympathized with it. So he helped it. Upa was there, he saw him cry. So he sympathized. But Goku wouldn't go out of his way to help unless present unless he could feel the sadness of the moment. Again, again, he is reactionary. He is a free spirit. He does what he feels like doing when he feels it. He is pure in the sense that he is true to himself always.
@@PathBeyondTheDarkA Circumstancial hero is still a hero. Actively while Goku is Selfish he won't let wrong happen if there is another way. His decisions might be flawed from time to time but that's what makes him a character. It still be in his nature to wish for the good of the world and want to carry his martial artist tradition. That's what he wanted Gohan to be a passionate Martial Artist like himself while also Defending himself and other if someone did pose a danger. If No one else Goku atleast has motivation to protect his friends and fight for enjoyment. That's what he wanted for Gohan when he saw potential. An Amazinf fighter but also a person who could step up if needed.
Piccolo "A demon in recovery". Great one Lance. And you actually made me think differently about these scenes.
I loved that line. I'm using that one from now on.
Can you imagine a thearpy session with literally murderous demon? Yikes....
@@Zero-pe3iq to be fair, Piccolo Jr. never killed anyonr but Goku, and that was kinda consensual...
thank you so much for calling out the "nyeh goku was a worst dad than piccolo/vegeta!" meme.
This franchise has a shit ton of awesome and funny memes. This is not one of them.
I detest this meme with a burning passion and I want it to die immediately
It is always cathartic hearing Lance defend Goku on his parenting mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes especially as a parent. At least he is never a asshole to his son. Comparing Vegeta to Goku on this is not even worth a comparison. Would you rather have a caring good person as a father or a recovering murderer who neglects you?
@@banzafid7181 Yes it is. People refer to Picollo as Gohan's real father in a comedic sense. If that's not a meme then what is it? It's not even funny at that.
Vegeta a better father and there’s countless proof
While Piccolo scolds Goku for not understanding his son and him not wanting to dedicate himself to fighting, I feel like Goku should have said something back that Gohan isn't such a little kid to be constantly protected. They're both looking at two different sides of Gohan and temporarily forgot the other side existed.
Goku was there when Gohan was the first to stand up to Great Ape Vegeta, and how he had to get back up to protect his crippled father. Piccolo was dead at the time.
Goku knows Gohan hit Dodoria, hid from Freeza, fought Gurd and fought Recoom. Piccolo was travelling to/training on Kaio's Planet and wasn't watching the whole time.
(In a filler episode so it doesn't count really) Goku knows Gohan went to fight Freeza in his place. Piccolo was unconscious at the time.
Goku and Piccolo helped Gohan train for the Cyborg attack, but didn't really make any gains or do much.
Goku and Gohan train alone in the RoSaT and he makes _all_ the gains. Goku even expressly stated he's out to make Gohan stronger than himself, and Gohan wanted to help defeat Cell (just not be _the_ one to defeat Cell).
Goku saw Gohan's willingness to fight far more than Piccolo ever has and knows that whatever the case, Gohan is the only one who can defeat Cell. Piccolo saw Gohan's fragile side more than Goku ever has, and he knows that his emotions are what drive him or hold him back.
What? Piccolo actually trained gohan for a year so he should definetly understand gohans willingness to figh. Also now would be a terrible time to play the blame game.
@@fightingmedialounge519 That would be a big point except in the Nappa fight, Gohan had to be saved from a stray Saibaman (by Piccolo), and Gohan froze at the crucial moment they needed to injure Nappa, and Piccolo told him to go home if he's going to be scared all day.
Gohan didn't fully step up until moments after Piccolo's death.
@@Vegeto30294Piccolo should know better than scold Goku over not knowing Gohan when he's the one who threw a 4yo into a mountain to force him into drawing out his power.
Only two weeks after the previous episode?! What is this, Dragon Ball Dissection July?!
Christmas in July, as TFS' take on the Lord Slug movie has taught us.
@@ScherrHrenner Don't July to me
8:27 I'm right there with you. I am so sick of people saying that Goku is a bad father and Vegeta is a better dad. You said they say it jokingly, but they really don't. They GENUINELY BELIEVE THAT. I'm so glad you brought that up.
To be fair, Lance is being a bit disingenuous by using a picture of Vegeta punching Future Trunks to make that contrast. When people say Vegeta is a better dad, they don't mean Vegeta as he is in this arc, they mean Vegeta as he is in the next arc, not as he is with his son's future counterpart who he barely even knows, but rather as he is with his actual present day son whom he implicitly spends the next six years raising and nurturing.
You know, as opposed to Goku who abandons his family during that same timeframe leaving the unborn Goten to grow up without a father.
That said, Vegeta still ain't no saint and he's still gonna do some really stupid and selfish things in the next arc too, but the people who try and endorse him as the better dad aren't entirely pulling that argument out of there asses either. Which isn't to say Goku has to be a "bad" father by contrast, they can each both have there own different virtues and faults.
Emeral Bookwise Goku does totally step out on Gohan, no arguing that. But, correct me if I’m wrong, I don’t believe he’s ever made aware of Goten existing. Now, he certainly could’ve checked in, but I don’t think he remained in the afterlife under the guise of “I don’t wanna raise my second son.”
After all, there’s never anything said in the story that implies Goku did anything other than being a family man post-tenkaichi budokai/pre-Raditz.
Emeral Bookwise lol at “raising and nurturing”,Vegeta himself said to Trunks that he’s never held his own son once in his entire life. Vegeta wasn’t a caring father until he was literally knocking on death’s door. Goku was the one who raised and nurtured Gohan the first 4 or 5 years of his life before giving up his life for him with the battle against Radditz, and he also put the safety of his own family above himself yet again by remaining to stay dead because he realized the Earth was in constant peril because of enemies he made.
@@VintageSpaceRay: I'd say there is at least an implication Goku learned about about Goten at some point during the intervening years, seeing as when they finally meet for the first time Goku isn't surprised, isn't naively asking who this kid is.
But even ignoring Goten, that doesn't make abandoning his wife and other child any more excusable. Again though, this isn't about trying to paint Goku as a bad father. What even makes a good parent in the first place can be rather subjective anyway.
Without a doubt Goku is probably the kinder and more compassionate father, at least when he bothers to be around. By contrast Vegeta can be very aloof, even harsh, but he was at the very least present throughout the younger Trunks' childhood.
I blame TFS
Damn, this video has a funny structure. First 15 min is like a dissection of Gohan's character, and the last 2 min contain EVERYTHING that's happening in the plot in rapid succession.
Great episode though. Nice that you managed to address both fan opinions about Gohan ("he should be a fighter!" "no, he wants to be a schooler and is a pacifist!") and explain how there's merit to both of them.
I always found Gohan's "I don't want to kill" thing to Cell really weird, and I always thought back to those Frieza soldiers as well. What was he expecting Cell to do? Just go away then cuz he doesn't want to fight him anymore?
I know right? Though Gohan makes a fantastic point about all of this being pointless. I'm with Gohan on that.
Yes.
Gohan by the Cell Saga was older, so he probably grew more out of fighting and killing people.
Also, that fight with Frieza's men was really the only time he showed desire to fight and kill people. You could say that scene was out of character for him.
@@jasonone8726 Except when he was willing to kill Nappa. Or when he was trying to kill third form freeza
At least within the context of this arc, I feel that Gohan steals the end of Trunks’ character arc.
Now of course, Trunks has far less of an emotional connection and history with the main cast; however, this feels like his fight to me. Trunks’ actions in the early part of the arc (barring stepping out to sit in the future for a bit) are defined by his fear and relatively passive role. He depends almost entirely on others because of his fear of the artificial humans (Gohan
In the future, giving Goku the cure, watching Vegeta fight 18, and so on.)
And he only seems to jump into fights when his fear of the direness of the situation sets in, or in situations where he develops confidence, both proving to be his downfall.
Trunks’ laments his failure against Cell after finally becoming strong enough and confident enough to face a fight that, by all means, is set up to be his. So to have him so unceremoniously sidelined as a member of the peanut gallery and then disposed of to provide a brief character moment for Vegeta feels like a completely jarring pause in his narrative to make room for Gohan.
Now, of course Trunks’ arc wraps up nicely when he returns to his own time with the strength, confidence, and swiftness to take care of the artificial humans there; but his relative absence at this point in the story is such a disservice to his role so far (reverting him back into someone waiting for someone to fight for him rather than growing from his own mistakes).
Side note, his death also feels more like a plot device with no emotional weight that’s only purpose was to break Gohan’s arm thanks to Gohan specifically mentioning that Trunks can be revived earlier that same day in the story.
I concur that is why I feel Trunks doesn't do squat that's important. Since he gets sidelined despite this really having more connection to him. What was the point of time travel if the traveler becomes irrelevant. Also I would like to mention that in his timeline he waits for Cell to be born. Despite knowing where he was he sits out the three years until Cell would be born. Not only that he leaves his time machine out. Not omly that he waits three years to inform everyone he dealt with the others. He never does and they would understandably assume he took care of everything.
@@spartanq7781 Trunks just wanted to be the messager and one of his other goals was to bring Goku to the future.But i don't think he could convince Goku of coming since he just got there from planet yardrat,His timeline is different than the main cast timeline just because trunks now know where Dr Gero second lab in that timeline doesn't mean that underground lab is in the same location in his timeline... Does it take like 3 years to make fuel for the time machine? So I don't why you blame trunks for waiting 3 years later to inform the cast that he finish off the Artificial Humans.
I disagree with Trunks' death being unimportant, i think that's a major moment for Vegeta, and is what makes him turn into a decent human (?) being, i think that without that moment, he would have never realized he had people he cared about.
But on the other hand....Yeah, after all that build-up in the beginning, the most important thing Trunks did in the arc was dying...
Gianluca Forani my wording was probably poor, but I completely agree. It’s a very important death, it’s just a shame that it’s so important to Vegeta’s character arc and almost inconsequential to trunks. Trunks feels like such a non character at the moment of his death that if it didn’t happen, his story wouldn’t change all that much if at all.
Vegeta plays such an active role in every part of the Cell arc from Android 19 through the assist to Gohan in the finale. He always seems to have a hand in everything and I wish Trunks had gotten a similar treatment.
@@supaseru9736 I was talking about him waiting for Cell to be born. When he could have killed the embryonic Cell. You know like he and Kurrin did with this timelines Cell.
The worst things about your videos Lance is finally catching up. Now I have to be patient and wait for a new video to come out.
I feel you! This happened to me a few months ago. His stuff is just THAT good.
I'm binging it right now, and I'm currently on the Piccolo Daimao arc. It's gonna happen to me soon too haha
I've been patient since the Red Ribbon arc lol. I follow this series religiously
@@Corredor1230 your patience must be stronger than Chiaotzu
Luckily for me I discovered this series only a few weeks ago.
Goku's character is misinterpreted by most. He is someone who does everything on a whim. Good, bad, other. He does what he feels like doing. It could be helping a poor turtle because the sadness of the moment influenced him, or put the world at jeopardy because at that time he just wants a good fight. He is a free spirit. That is why his actions seem so contradictory. It's just who he is. He lives moment to moment, he has no grand plan. And his whimsical nature is shown throughout the manga. It's mistaken for compassion, for heroism, for just wanting to beat up some strong guys.
Something that isn't brought up is his sudden shift in caring about the next generation all the way from the Cell arc through the end. But everyone wants to talk about him loving to fight. Well, is that not contradictory? "Hey you kid, fight for me." It's just his flavor of the month, what he is interested in at that time. It's not done out of a genuine concern for the world, he just relishes in the idea and it brings him gratification. It's also been consistent that he leaves his loved ones as soon as he feels like it. He left the original team to find his grandpa's ball, he left the team to train on more then one occasion, he stays dead because that's what he wants.
And look no further then Toriyama himself for proof. This is how he meant for his character to be interpreted and it is how I interpret it. To me, his actions throughout paint a clear picture. He has always loved to explore, to learn in his own way, to find enjoyment in something and when he does, he rolls with it. That remained consistent throughout. Gohan isn't a son to him, he is a friend. He treats him like all of his friends, always has. He saw how powerful his friend was, so he tried to exploit it (not in a sinister way, he wasn't aware it was wrong). He doesn't process what being a father is. He only knows friendship, so thats how his care comes through. It's like the free spirit you see in movies - never at fault because they don't know better, unpredictable, and yet everyone loves them.
During the Tournament of Power (yes I'm bringing up DBS again) he proclaims he never saw himself as a hero of justice. He fought for himself and his friends, who are basically extensions of himself. *It's the perfect quote to sum up his character.* And yes, DBS is trash in many regards I have said this, but it nails some things better then Toriyama ever did (seriously I want to discuss the ToP if you are even reading this. It's an itch I probably won't be able to scratch unless I get really lucky).
i agree with everything here, but i definitely think he views gohan as his son and his friend.
The Trunks Specials could've given Gohan more of a connection to the story. That is if Trunks interacted more with young Gohan in the main series. And then if Cell killing Trunks had been what caused Gohan to go SS2. This is an old video for an even older series, but it got me thinking :)
And that's one of the few things DBS did better. Unfortunately the second half of that arc happened.
I think the problem is that Toriyama made stuff up as he goes along. When Trunks was introduced, I don't think he ever had the idea that Gohan was his trainer and that they were close, until the History Of Trunks manga, which came out way later in the Cell Saga, during the Goku vs Cell fight. Which would explain the lack of connection with Gohan with Trunks, throughout the whole saga. No hints about their connection in Trunk's past.
I want to bring attention to the amazing page flip during Gohans snap. Sure, the heartfelt 16 speech could have foreshadowed it but the previous page was so full of small panels and text that flipping the page to this huge page of Gohan snapping makes it way more effective.
In the anime this moment lost all of its surprise imo, ESPECIALLY in the american version.
I used to love the Funi English dub version of Gohan's transformation as a kid, but holy hell is it cringy now. The internal monologue really wasn't needed, and it can't even be edited out since it fades right into the scream.
I guess Kai does it right, but I have so much nostalgia for original Gohan's voice, so I wish there was a "proper" version of that scene if that makes any sense.
@@_ace_defective_ yeah, was never a fan of how many early anime dubs were so afraid that kids couldn’t comprehend 3 seconds of silence so they filled every moment of it with either annoying sound effects, audio cues or characters over-monologuing what they can already see whats on screen
I attribute Gohan's sudden pacifist sentiments to the typical Toriyama form of storytelling: characters act only according to what the plot needs from them. As you have pointed out many times, characters act in and out of character constantly. Here Toriyama needed to take Gohan's gentleness and stretch it to become pacifism in order to have the star contrast we see once he awakens. Toriyama characterizes in extremes. There is no nuance to his characters, they are one thing when he needs them to be and then another the same. Gohan's relatively consistent arc until this point was likely due to Toriyama just needing him to be "the boy who got angry sometimes and shocked the audience." That this exceptional conclusion to said arc fell in his lap, however that may have been, is in itself shocking.
A perfect example of Toriyama's tendencies is Gohan after this arc. He does not know what to do with him other then present him as one of those two extremes. He does not understand how to mesh the pacifist scholar with the rage induced ruthless fighter. He has no interest in exploring this dynamic in Gohan, in Gohan finding a way to incorporate both halves of himself, in coming to terms with who he is. In my eyes, he is a true hero. Unlike the Goku of the Z era who fought just as much for himself as anyone, if not moreso, he fights solely for others.
His "proper" continuation of his arc should have seen him be able to channel that rage into the need to protect, to never see others suffer again. Use that hatred to save people from monsters, *hate the bad guys.* This should have been his motivation to continue training. Contrary to everything Toriyama seems to think - as demonstrated by Goku having to choose training or family during most of his run - *you can do both, especially when you travel at light speed.* It's not easy, even with aforementioned lightspeed travel, but Gohan has demonstrated he doesn't quit just because it gets hard.Say what you will about Dragon Ball Super, but at least the writing staff realize Goku can travel the cosmos in an instant and so can be seen with his family and training. It'sd a much more interesting path to take having a character accept ALL sides of himself and find the right balance. But again, Toriyama does not understand or doesn't care.
Enter "Beast Gohan" which is the first time since the Cell arc we have seen that "other" side. But now it is presented as once again an extreme, only the opposite. It feels like "big white hair" brings out the animal while "black hair, nerdy glasses" brings out the scholar. I have no confidence going forward, but *at least* it seems like Gohan is able to Jekyll and Hide at will and perhaps that's how it will stay. He shows some restraint by sticking to the plan with Piccolo, but I highly doubt a truly realized and assimilated Gohan will ever be a thing, the man who is all of he.
I honestly don't think this was out of character. Gohan said he wasn't a fighter like Goku, which always seemed the case. He only ever trained when he had to or was forced to. Besides, when him and Krillin killed those soldiers, he never showed any desire to fight.
I agree with you, yeah Gohan isn't a warrior, but you don't get this good at something just to survive, especially when you had all of this time, and you end up getting better then the person that loves fighting. Talent can only get you so far, and if you put effort into something and you get so good that people around you are impressed that are especialist on that field, it isn't for nothing.
Now don't get me wrong, i can get that on his own Gohan would probably be less motivated to focus completely on training and more of making a balancing act which can put him on the backburner of progress compare to others that completely dedicated thenselves to this... No so weak that he is weaker then he is now, but having made less progress then them.
My main problem when i sit down with the original Manga going into it's last arc regarding Gohan, it's that Toriyama, because he doesn't know how to handle Gohan, gives up too quickly. And ironically, i think that the idea of making Gohan interact more with peers of his age, making him see and care more about people around him, maybe go into an small adventure that puts them in danger to realize that if something worse comes, he has to find a proper balance in his innerself, then have the tournament where Buu appear, he already knows the problem and it's the act of trying to find the solution that's the core of the issue... But like you pointed out, i don't think Toriyama had it in him to handle a complex character like Gohan, he created something closer to Ichigo, which needs a more story centrict careful planning author then something who using a term we use in my native country, scrapes off asphalt.
Agreed with you, Toriyama just put Gohan into the protagonist role without a thought so of course we needed a source for drama for Gohan's fight since his power ups are given to a silve plate(since Goku's efforts to overcome the opponent were the source of 'drama") so enter Gohan pacifist mode out of nowhere.
Those kind of problems exist in all characters, Toriyama's sudden change of direction of Vegeta after Namek, Piccolo going from hard-boilled warrior to a comedic babysitter and Goku switching from standard hero to battle maniac whenever its convenient.
@Thisdude850 Vegeta never had a change in direction after Namek. Piccolo's changes are called character development. You know that Gohan softened him up. Being a babysitter isn't his only role in the series. So what if he's close with Pan. 😆
I agree largely with this, but I really think Gohan's character arc needs a change if he will continue to be used in the franchised. His same arc has been recycled too many times, so I wish they would do something different (and interesting) with him, or just leave him alone.
I'm glad someone finally said it. I've always found it weird how... random?... Gohan feels in this scenario. It always made sense at leasat to some level, but it never really sat right for me for reasons I could never palce.
Really, Gohan was just a supporting character in the entire arc...
8:37 "This is treating your kid better!? *THIS IS TREATING YOUR KID BETTER!?* "
You know, the way you said it reminds me of "ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT KURIRIN!?" and I dunno if it was intentional or not.
KURIRIN NO KOTO KA?!?!?!?
Does anyone ever think about how nobody had a problem with forcing a younger Gohan to fight the Saiyans in a deathmatch? Goku encouraged Gohan to fight Vegeta, even shaming him in the process. Piccolo and Krillin had no issue with Gohan fighting Freeza when he was outmatched and could very easily be killed either. Sure at most points they were fighting alongside him, but that's no insurance for his safety. It's only now that they suddenly realize Gohan is a softie inside, is only a kid, and is in need of protection.
Goku was already aware of Gohan's potential, when he wanted him to fight Vegeta, he was their last hope, both Goku and Krillin were down and Gohan had enough fight in him, plus he wanted to help anyway, it was him who came back to the fight. As for Frieza, it's not like they were letting Gohan fight him alone. They were fighting with him.
With the saiyans, they did because he's literally one of the strongest characters and without him the whole planet including him would be dead anyway. It was a desperate situation where he and piccolo where the only two aliens on earth that stood a chance with bringing the gap between the oncoming saiyans until Goku showed up. The adult fighters all put themselves on the line first even though gohan had the most potential. And even then, Piccolo told gohan to go home when he wasn't up to the challenge, once Goku showed up he also insisted Gohan go home. So I do feel like the priorities of the adults in that situation were different and they were concerned with Gohan's safety. But him not getting involved in battle would have led to him eventually getting killed as he had a higher chance of living if he helped fight the threat off. Similar situation with Namek, as Krillin and Gohan avoided dangerous foes unless their backs where against the wall. The only reason gohan was there was because they thought namek was peaceful. And once Goku shows up, both with Freiza and Ginyu, Goku sends Gohan awah from the fight for his safety. So yeah they definitely cared about gohan's safety in the previous arcs.
Yes, THANK YOU for pointing out that Goku shamed Gohan into continuing to fight Vegeta. You're the only other person whom I've seen point this out. Overall, the adults tend to favor exploiting Gohan's power and especially his emotional outbursts for power gains in battle. I find that to be a bit questionable when it comes to the issue of Gohan's personal well-being.
I feel the major difference we're not mentioning here is context
In Saiyan and Frieza, he is one of if not the only option available at that time
Vs Vegeta he was the only one standing and able bodied
Maybe Krillin vs Vegeta and have Gohan throw the bomb but (as strange as it is to say) I feel that the responsibility of throwing the bomb is more crushing than the responsibility of fighting someone (then again Gohan doesn't know about the Bomb so idk)
In Frieza, there's Vegeta who doesn't care about Gohan or the others, and Krillin
Krillin almost immediately nearly dies, and so it's just Gohan and Vegeta until Dende revives Krillin
Piccolo shows up and takes over, but once he gets blasted, it's just Krillin and Gohan again as Piccolo is now too weak to help (and again, Vegeta doesn't care about them)
Once Goku shows up, then he handles it from there
But here, against Cell there are still multiple able bodied fighters available who could fight Cell first (even if they don't have the strength to 1v1 Cell, a war of attrition is a viable strategy here)
Vegeta, Trunks, Piccolo, Krillin, Tien, and Yamcha all could have gone before the child had to. Goku could have continued fighting a bit longer, eaten a senzu, or similar
Basically, this situation has them push Gohan into danger while other options are available first
The other situations often have Gohan as the only available option, so he is forced to participate
Something I've started thinking about the android saga in recent years is that it'd be better if it was split apart. Having the android saga sort of come to some sorta end before we deal with the mystery of Cell. That way we could have a scene where, say, Gohan who's defending his Father's body is able to successfully convince Android 16 not to kill his father while he's still fighting a disease, blocking his body with his own.It could be a moment that shows 16s humanity to Gohan which would make him dying much more of a significant moment but also you could use it as a way to foreshadow how strong Gohan is. In a way that 16 is actually hesitant to engage in combat with Gohan to get to Goku and the androids go on a bit of a sabbatical. During this time we could also play around with Krillin trying to get up the guts to talk to 18 again, perhaps with all the other Z fighters (except maybe Yamcha) telling him that's a terrible idea. Trunks would just be frustrated knowing the Androids are out there able to do whatever they want and that basically nothing has changed. It'd also be a good way to explore the androids characters as just spoiled teenagers who basically have the power to destroy everything in their wake but for the time being are just wasting it being a slight menace to society (I mean if Piccolo can get away with blowing up a stadium I'm sure we can show 17 and 18 raising a bit of hell without making them irredeemable.) I dunno it's just an idea.
About Gohan's "I don't want to kill" thing, that's not him refusing to kill Cell or having some sort of moral dilemma about it, that's just him stating how he has no personal desire to fight or kill Cell. Cell hasn't done anything to truly piss him off yet, so Gohan doesn't really have some sort of truly personal goal to see Cell dead. Yes, he killed those Freeza soldiers, but Gohan doesn't normally have a personal desire to kill things, which is the point. The whole idea of Gohan's speech to Cell was to try to convince Cell that fighting was pointless after realizing what Goku's plan was. Gohan obviously isn't looking to get angry enough to kill or fight somebody to the death, and Cell obviously wouldn't want to die - that's what Gohan meant when he said the fight was pointless, because Goku's plan involves things happening that neither him or Cell really wants to happen (of course, he didn't factor in Cell getting excited at Gohan's power, which was his mistake), and Gohan would rather end things peacefully as opposed to violently.
And when the Cell Jrs. came into play, at that point Gohan was trying to bring out his hidden power, but nothing severe enough happened yet to warrant him exploding with rage. It wasn't necessarily pressure that was holding him back, he simply couldn't get angry enough because nobody had died or suffered that bad of an injury.
Regardless, I'm thankful you didn't simply label Gohan as being an out-of-character pacifist that refused to fight like many others will do. That was never what the story was trying to communicate.
Hey, I know this comment is three years old, but I wanna throw my two cents on it anyway.
I don’t think that beat is out of character, but I do think it’s poorly executed. The fact if the matter is, Gohan had no problems fighting in the previous arc, so this line’s wording comes off as confusing.
@@JW-xd8up The thing is though, what happened before was, Gohan was either forced to fight or had no choice but to. Saiyan Saga - Gohan is forced to fight the Saiyans
Frieza Saga - He only went along with them to Namek, to help find the Dragonballs, not to get into any battles, they didn't know about Frieza
Android Saga - He had no choice but to train and help, they just heard about the Androids that will kill them.
Gohan was never shown with any desire to fight, except when him and Krillin killed Frieza's soldiers, that's the only example really.
Oh man, I didn't expect this but this is great.
Great analysis as always. Personally I really wanted Gohan and 16 to develop together even a little to make this moment resonate, or at least focus more on the fact Gohan doesn't want anyone to die- 16 was a rando from Gohan's perspective, but he deserved to live and wasn't a bad person. That's, in my opinion, a workable reason for Gohan to lose it in a moment of such stress- he just saw someone die, which means Cell's threats are REAL and everyone else could start dying for real.
Something worth mentioning, about cells Self-destruct (altough you probably already thought about it):
On the surface it seems like some contrived bullshit that his self destruct mode doesn't destroy THE ONE CELL required for his whole body to regenerate... But isn't that a potential intentional ability? Cell's powerset and power progression may not make sense upon closer scrutiny, but if I designed a regenerating monster that could blow itself up and I had the option to allow it to continue existing even after exploding... I'd take it. I'd design for it if possible. Literally having your cake and eat it too.
PD: WEN BROLI
the relationship between 16 and Gohan is even deeper when you consider 16 was created to kill Goku . makes it all the more powerful that the machine who was designed to murder your father asks you to save the earth for reasons that have nothing to do with 16s own life
I very much agree with the pressure blocking Gohan from being able to do anything. But I don’t think the transformation was that much out of place.
16 being the one to deliver the speech and die really is plot convenience but imo it didn’t matter much who played his part. Not being able to fight back was what drove Gohan crazy. He knew he just needed to break through this mental block but he didn’t know how. He had all this helplessness, expectations, desperation and guilt building inside him and on top of that he was very scared of Cell (for obvious reasons). He wanted to and didn’t want to fight at the same time. So he gets more desperate with every second where he’s unable to do anything, but that just corners and blocks him even more and finally he starts crying and begging and then suddenly there’s a change in atmosphere. His attention shifts to 16 and in the desperate mental state he’s in, I don’t find it hard to believe emotional words hit him hard where they didn’t before. But what I’m getting at is: I think the change in focus threw him out of this block because his attention shifted to something else. For a short while he was put in a bubble where nothing else reached him. He wasn’t aware of being on a stage anymore. He just wanted to make it stop. When 16’s head was suddenly crushed by Cell (who was pretty much the embodiment of Gohan’s fears at this point) it just flipped the switch.
That’s how I feel about it. Then there’s TFS’s version that adds a couple more layers to it. Anyway, great work again with this video, looking forward to your dissection of "original" Broli :D
Thanks Lance I really needed this today. I’m having a rough day but these videos provide a wonderful intellectual escape in to Dragon world. God bless!
I hope your day gets better!
I think the problem with Gohan as a character is that a lot of people project themselves into the character and don't see him as a person. This ignores that Gohan's easier to write about and is more proactive about stopping threats when main character, while everyone else is hilariously passive and content with letting the bad guy power up. Gohan has his vices, but what when you have a ex-warlord princess like Chi Chi mother, they're understandable. Plus, the anime shows off Gohan doing things, as opposed to Toriyama just telling us in the manga, which allows the former to be more believable. I like the slow pace of the Z anime over Super.
I both hate and love this “Gohan taking the mantle” part of the story.
Hate it because there was no real build up to it at all as you said. It’s such an integral part of the story but comes off as little more than Toriyama making it up as he goes along. What would have been a really interesting battle with a villain who knows all the heroes techniques and fighting styles, while also being an interesting revenge story against Goku and friends that looked into the consequences of their actions throughout the series in the form of Cell. Instead we just get Gohan fodderizing an opponent that could have been really interesting.
And yet I love it for that same reason. There’s no build up, so it’s completely unexpected and a great shock when it does happen. You expected Goku and friends to defeat Cell, with a death or two here and there, and that would be that. But instead not only does the main character of your shonen manga give up in the middle of the fight, but we’re also forced to watch their child that doesn’t even want to be there be forced to accept his power and fight. Like imagine if you were the child of a shonen protagonist but you just wanted to live a normal life, yet inevitably, you’d be thrust into world shattering catastrophes that if you didn’t participate in, everything you knew and love would be gone and it would be your fault. If there were hints and build up it would kinda become cliche and wouldn’t be as shocking as I’m sure it was in 1993. It’s a completely unexpected ending and if Gohan was to become the main character as intended, would have changed the course of the franchise forever in an unexpected way. Hope you’ll touch on that by the way when you get to the Buu arc.
16:32
Heh Poor 17. He died forgotten inside Cell's stomach
But he SOMEHOW is out and well by the time of the super, and SOMEHOW became strong like a god by fighting off bandits.... the magic of lame writing I guess.
@@a.liguria2698 My guess is the wish they did on the lookout after revived him.
@@a.liguria2698 They showed in the Manga how the wish to revive everyone Cell killed made him come back. Also he appeared at the end of Z during the final Spirit Bomb, so it's not just Super that brought him back. And it was explained that 17 has infinite energy as an android and never needs to rest, so he can train infinitly. If Piccolo can turn from 2nd form Frieza level to being much stronger than Android 20 in just 3 years of normal training on earth, then I can believe 17 becoming that strong with 10 years of training.
Oh and everyone has been "strong like a god" since the Namek Saga, because King Kai is a god.
Why you have to be such a mindless super hater? Really stupid.
@@JackOfen
Maybe because the stakes in super are flat out idiotic?
And he managed to gain the same level as a supposed deity (ssjb) more deity than ever, by merely fighting some smugglers...
By the way, It's pretty obvious that King Kai is pretty low in the pecking order now, I was referring to something else.
@@a.liguria2698
What do stakes have to do with this? They are not any more or less idiotic than in Z.
I don't think you understand that "deity" or "god" is just a title in Dragon Ball. Supreme Kai is the highest god in our universe and could get rekt by a Super Saiyan 2.
Also did he just fight poachers or smugglers? How do you know what kind of training he pulled every single day? Plus, it was obvious in the tournament that SSJB Goku is much stronger than 17. So obviously Goku didn't go all out when he tested him.
I can't believe you came back so soon.
I was surprised as well, when I read his announcement on Facebook.
@@ScherrHrenner I found out via his Twitter post. One I randomly stumbled onto.
@13:26 I don't know...anyone ever notice when a parent, family member or another person of authority tells you something that you think is dumb, but when you hear it from a friend or stranger it makes sense? Kind of like a wise old person sitting on a park bench telling the main character something that seems weird at first but turns out to be a powerful lesson (the same kind of thing his parent would tell him but he'd ignore).
I know that's a weird analogy but hey it works for me haha
No, a stranger telling me something has never made more since than someone I know telling me something.
But it's like, sometimes an outside perspective gets you thinking...
I don't think it's entirely fair to use the ease with which Gohan implicitly killed a few nameless mooks on Namek, against his reluctance to explicitly kill Cell here. Not just because those mooks were nameless fodder either, but also because Gohan wasn't even six years old yet when he went to Namek, where as now he's eleven. Those previous events were literally half a lifetime ago for him and so it's entirely reasonable to believe his attituded shifted over the intervening years.
Moreover, it's not even wholly accurate to call Gohan's reluctance to kill being due to pacifism. Really, by Gohan's own admission it has more to do with fear, fear of himself, fear of the collateral damage he could cause if he allowed himself to fly into a blind rage now that he's a Super Saiyan and exponentially more powerful than he was in previous fights.
I mean, those are fair points, to be sure, but at the same time, it's also entirely reasonable to assume that Gohan should have no problem killing the bad guy in order to save the world, in terms of practicality. By at least the Namek Saga, the series reached a point where most antagonists and villains are so evil and unrelenting, that even if you were strong enough to defeat them without killing them, it wouldn't be enough to stop their murderous ways. At that point, killing them becomes the most practical option, especially for characters who can regenerate any lost body part. And as a young and impressionable child, Gohan has spent a lot of time around characters who are willing to kill antagonists for that very reason, for 1-3 arcs at this point. So even if he on some level doesn't want to kill bad guy, it's entirely reasonable that he's been conditioned enough to the act or intent of killing out of necessity, that it should be a normal action for him to perform, out of necessity.
@@kmgyening: You aren't wrong, Gohan really has had a rather traumatic childhood and it wouldn't be at all surprising if being exposed to so much suffering and death turned him into a heartless psychopath.
Oh, wait... that's sort of exactly what we see him become when he goes SS2 for the first time, and back to my original point further makes a case for Gohan restraining himself not out of any true sense of pacifism, but rather out of fear of his own rage.
It's not that Gohan doesn't want to kill Cell because he thinks all life is precious, he's just afraid that in the process of killing one monster he might himself become an even worse monster.
@@EmeralBookwise To be clear: I wasn't suggesting that Gohan should be conditioned to be more disposed toward psychopathic behavior. I was saying that his constant exposure to seeing his friends and family kill bad guys or fight then with the intent to kill them, both out of necessity and not psychopathy, likely could or should have desensitized him to committing or intending to commit the act, out if necessity and practicality. In simpler terms, it's entirely reasonable to expect that constantly being exposed to those situations should have led him to "know the drill" by this time. If killing bad guys out of necessity isn't new to him, then why should he fear losing control in the act of killing one more bad guy out of necessity?
@@kmgyening: Except, when has Gohan ever seen any of his friends or family killing?
Piccolo killed Raditz, but Gohan was unconscious at the time. Nappa or the Ginyu Force? Nope, Goku only ever incapacitated them. It was Vegeta who dealt the killing blows, and he was still a badguy himself back then. Goku even let Frieza live. Trunks later finished the job, but that was before Gohan even new who Trunks was.
@ Morph Ball
You're entitled to feel that way, and I'll continue to do everything my power to not come across that way. However, in my own defense, I must disagree in this case. I find the claim especially confusing given the example you pick, which is simply incorrect. I never used that moment to "prove that Goku's childish" unless there's some other time I brought it up that I am completely blanking on.
I made an offhand joke about it in regards to MasakoX's vocal performance as the character in Dragon Ball Z Abridged, as well as implicitly poking fun at the prevailing attitude of that time that, thanks to the English dub's rewriting of Goku, a lot of fans were totally oblivious that adult Goku has that childlike naiveté as a facet of his character.
That's certainly not the conversation nowadays, since modern Dragon Ball has cranked that trait up to absurd degrees to the point that it's impossible to miss. And because of that caricaturization annoying me, I even replayed that very moment and disavowed that statement in The Cell Arc Part 3.
I'm afraid I honestly cannot see how (and I did go back to watch it now just to be sure) you could possibly interpret such an all-encompassing critique on Goku's character from a ten-second quip I made seven years ago.
I hope you get much more subscribers. These DB analysis videos are the highlight on the list of new videos.
It's funny how perceptions change as you age. Growing up in the late 90's/early 2000's, the Android and Cell Arcs were my favorite part of DBZ, and Gohan's day in the limelight was the high point of the entire series for me. Maybe it was just the power fantasy of seeing a kid your age (I was literally Gohan's age when the Cell Games aired on Toonami) picking apart older and stronger villains, but I really was invested in Gohan's story and his coming of age.
Looking back at it now, it would have been great to see Toriyama develop Gohan's reluctance to fight beyond just laziness/wants to be a scholar. I still love SSJ2 Kid Gohan and the drastic change in his character when he unlocks that power. Him being terrified of that side of himself and not wanting to rely on it (a la Aang in Avatar: The Last Airbender) would be a much better motivator for why he doesn't push himself to get stronger. Or have his character arc be learning to control that side of himself and use it for the right reasons. Instead Gohan's hidden rage isn't brought up at all after Cell, and he doesn't train himself because he isn't motivated.
Awesome analysis as always Lance. Is it me or did we go pretty quickly through the Super Saiyan 2 stuff? I’d love to see more analysis on that (as well as Goku’s sacrifice) in the next DBD. But first WenBroly haha.
Gohan really doesn't belong here. This arc has nothing to do with him. He fills in Goku's role of being everyone's last minute hero. I find it ironic that the arc Gohan has the smallest role is when he is taking his father's mantle. He telling Cell the Cell Games are pointless is a fantastic point. The fact that a "tournament" is the deciding factor of the Earth's fate ridiculous. The last tournament had that same problem but here the scale of the threat it far larger making it feel even more ridiculous. Back on topic the series built up to this moment eventually happening. This arc doesn't have build up of it but this is the arc it culminates. Goku makes the mistake of misunderstanding Gohan but in a relatable way. He upon realizing his mistakes tries to fix it. So you see him try to atone for it. That is what a parent is supposed to do. They make mistakes with their children and then fix it. People really exaggerate it as Goku being a terrible father. He is not a perfect parent but neither is anyone else. He in the least doesn't ever abuse his son and think little of him. This whole section is him doing the complete opposite of Vegeta in this arc. Toriyama at this point seems to not understand how to have the strongest guy be around before the climax. Gohan here also needs to have his development from before redone. It is really only a thing to facilitate drama. The Cell Jr's reminds me of the Saibimen too. 16 and his speech are both pointless. 16 like the entire rest of the arc is just there. His speech is pretty much what Goku told Gohan already. So clearly it wouldn't work. Hell Cell knew this which is why he went to such lengths to anger Gohan. 16's death is not reason enough for Gohan to snap. These two only have that one conversation. Freeza killing Kurrin works so much better as the impetuous behind Goku snapping. Cell's self destruct is such plot specific and forced devise. Cell hand waves explanations as to why he can't be stopped. I love Kaio's reaction to Goku bringing a ticking time bomb bug man to his home. Oh that wacky Toriyama. Movie 8 has such a bizarre generic title like most of the movies. I have a difficult time remembering it. I can't wait for you to dissect it and the finale of this arc.
16, like Gohan, is a pacifist.That's literally the end all of the parallel and you need nothing else. 16, who is basically Gohan's conscience personified in that scene, assures him that it is okay to fight *for the right reasons.* Just like Gohan he values life and fighting to protect said life is justified. It makes absolute sense that he is the one to trigger Gohan's ascension. You could argue Gohan had no interaction with him prior,band so shouldn't know they are similar. That is a valid critique. But the notion that 16 had no business being the catalyst is false.
Also it is a valid critique that Gohan had little business being the ultimate hero, at least somewhat. I could argue that he being Trunk's mentor in his timeline makes his role here serve a purpose, to inspire Trunks once and for all to free his timeline on his own. Is the execution well done? Hell no, if even intentional at all (probably not).
It does seem out of left field in the manga, admittedly. But the anime does a much better job at building to Gohan's role in the tournament, especially during the filler just before the Cell games. Obviously this doesn't excuse Toriyama, but personally I don't think it is so much botched as it is lacking.
About the Gohan killing those 2 guys on Namek. Gohan is 5 years older than he was there.
So maybe it's simply that his outlook has changed through maturity.
Yeah, you could say the same with Goku, about his no killing thing, he had no problem doing that before, but that was back when he was a more reckless child.
There is one thing that a lot of people forget about the whole Piccolo yelling at Goku thing. Piccolo’s argument is that Goku should’ve told Gohan about his plan because Gohan isn’t like him sure but also because since he doesn’t know, he’s doesn’t understand what’s expected of him ( and is wondering why his dad isn’t coming to save him bla bla bla )
However, Gohan does know. He’s shown in the very previous scene leading up to that one, explaining why his father brought him into this. Despite Piccolo’s assertions he, at no point during or after that scene, is seen exhibiting the behavior Piccolo is talking about. ( wondering why his father isn’t trying to come to the rescue )
This, along with him continually being surprised by Gohan’s power shows just how out of tune Piccolo is with his pupil ever since he came out of the RoSaT.
Btw, why doesn’t Goku tell him ? Probably for the exact reasons stated in the later portion of the video. "I’m gonna need you to get mad, and unleash your hidden potential Gohan !" would probably not work, as demonstrated.
Because not only guessing at goku's agenda meaning clearly wasn't fully aware of goku's plan, and arguing with someone that throwing your kid into a death match because of a hunch you have that he may win is a bad idea would make the character in question look like scum.
Kye Dysarthria | What ? Obviously the intention on Toriyama’s part wasn’t to make Goku look like scum. But yeah, Gohan wasn’t "aware" of it in the sense that Goku didn’t tell him outright but he guessed it fine. Like it’s said in the video, telling you to "get angry to unleash your full potential !" on cue isn’t super effective. And if we’re on authorial intent it’s clearly more than "just a hunch" and more of a foreshadowing. And from an in-universe perspective it’s an informed assumption that supposedly relies on Gokū’s knowledge of combat and of his son’s potential, which isn’t rare in fiction at all ( to be able to guess with great accuracy wildly random things based on your supposed knowledge of a topic, I mean. )
Overall I don’t get what your point is, it’s not super clearly worded tbh, so if you feel like I misrepresented what you said, please feel free to clarify.
Can’t believe we’re almost done with this arc
Me either. On one hand, it feels like I've been doing it forever. But on the other, I'm going to miss it when it's gone. Life moves pretty fast...
@@MistareFusion It's going to take forever with the next arc too. Hmm I wonder how long that will last and how many parts?
im glad he dissects the shitty part of z aka past freeza and I agree with his points on stupid cell and gohan but I wish he would get back to talking about original dragonball the best part of the series ..once raditz came down I stopped caring...gohan is a gary stu fan fic character even more so then boruto is.....hes so horrible as a idea and he was just a marketable kid character for shonnen jump.thats all he was
@@MistareFusion Just wanna say something, when people say Vegeta is a better Dad than Goku, they're referring to Buu Saga onwards. The examples you posted of him being a worse one, was when he was still a bad guy, who cared about no one but himself. I don't think anyone says Android and Cell Saga Vegeta is better.
I'm so glad someone finally brought up how sudden this whole pacifist desire in gohan is
I'm really looking forward to your thoughts on movie 8 and brolly.
He's a giant Fucking baby! But he's so cool!
Gohan has ALWAYS enjoyed fighting, especially when helping people out, going on adventures etc. He has also always enjoyed learning and discovering things and thoroughly enjoys times of peace and rest. It's when people force him to do one or the other that he seems as though he dislikes either.
He is half Saiyan and half Human: he lives in both worlds and is pulled between them at all times. Having him be a dedicated fighter all the time like his dad is a disservice to his character just like sticking him in a library/office forever is a disservice to his character, and yet people are always arguing about which would be more fitting for him? A fulfilled Gohan would feasibly manage both.
Dragon Ball Super actually has him in a really good place characterwise in both the Manga and Anime, in each having him value his family, studies, and his more docile nature while accepting the responsibility of being a protector and allowing himself time to train and fight without succumbing to his Saiyan bloodlust. People always roll their eyes at the Saiyaman stuff in the series (kind of the point of it) but it really is a natural fit for Gohan's character. He wants his privacy and ability to unwind without him and those he loves being constantly threatened, but he wants to stand up for others and right wrongs with his potential. A masked hero persona ala Spider-man is perfect for him and balancing that responsibility. Package it with the campy nature of Dragon Ball and everything fits.
Goku is a Saiyan raised by humans but Gohan is a Saiyan raised AS a human, because he is one as well. Gohan was 11 when he fought Cell... The same age Goku was in DB when he first ran into Bulma. Goku at that age had recently lost his father figure too and had to grow up with his friends and masters guiding him, but Kid Gohan ALWAYS had his mother, something Goku never experienced. There's a LOT to unpack there that Goku and Gohan both carry around with them. I wish they'd have a moment where they share this stuff, it would be great for both of them.
I don't think Gohan ever enjoyed fighting. He just had to. In the Saiyan Saga, he was forced to fight, Frieza Saga, he only went along with them to help find the Dragon Balls, not to do any battles, then in the Android Saga, once again, it was something he had to do.
Been re-reading the manga due to Toriyama's passing and i honestly agree with alot of your points on the Android/Cell Saga. I feel its more flawed than people realize.
In regards to Gohan, as much as fans complain about how he is written from Buu Saga onwards, i feel the decline in his character actually starts here. Yeah, SS2 transformation & Father-Son Kamehameha r cool but as u said, he actually plays a rather inconsequential role for the most of the arc. Its a huge contrast to Saiyan & Namek Saga Gohan where he was an active character who was highly involved in the plot
Just because he was less involved doesn't mean his character got bad. Remember that this was the first arc where a number of characters got a chance to be the strongest. The focus was on Piccolo, Vegeta, and Trunks, getting their development, and Gohsn did get his with SSJ and then during the Cell fight.
Personally, I don’t think Gohan was hurt by 16’s death. I think it was just a wake up call. His friends and family could die just like that- no remorse, no ceremony. Their lives could be gone in the blink of an eye, and it’d be Gohan’s fault. It’s one thing to know it, it’s another thing to see it.
dos años llevo siguiéndote, me encantan tus videos
This has been much more positive than I expected =)
8:27 - 8:43 *Slow clap* We can finally put this tired mindset to rest
Except it won't be.
@@fightingmedialounge519 but in this comment section it is. Only smart intellectuals gather here.
In the anime it's only made worse because he flat out murders all of garlic Jr's henchmen with no remorse.
Very good point!
@@MistareFusion I know people will say that's filler, but at least the English version, the narrator makes a specific reference to garlic Jr after gohan transforms.
I kinda get it considering he was pressured to do so.
@@benjaminpeters6729 Ehh come on, you know filler doesn't count, that's not fair. Toei wrote that shit.
I was waiting for this since watching the first episode of DBD. Lots of interesting stuff. I mostly agree too, with only a bit of difficulty to understand "who cares who this character dying is he never did anything important mindset." 16's death broke my heart as a kid and I have no issue with it triggering Gohan to go berserk. That being said I can't argue narratively it's cheap and unnatural. I never really questioned it when I was younger but in hindsight from the Saiyan Arc to now, it's easy enough to accept Gohan's character as he is presented in this fight but it's easy to see how it could come as a surprise. I never even really noticed Gohan did Jack all this entire arc until you mentioned it.
16 didn't have too much time in the story, he was pretty much non existent during this part of the saga, so his death wasn't that emotional. The anime gave him a bit more screen time, especially when he was being fixed, which kinda helped. As for him triggering Gohan, my whole issue with that is, he had no interaction with 16. That certainly shouldn't have triggered him, he didn't know the guy.
Nani!!!???? A new dissection part. Nice!
You should follow him on Twitter he said he was releasing this video today.
Great breakdown here, to be honest I was never super invested in Gohan and found his OP-ness to be more vexing than engaging, though fandom wanking it didn't help. I confess, I never got the impression he liked adventures, so much as went on then out of a sense of obligation, but that is just me. However I really liked your breakdown on Goku's character, th narratives surrounding Gohan how disconnected certain characters were, super solid stuff. And though I know you were joking, on Piccolo, well that was pre redemption, one expects Goku to be better than a technical villain XD
8:40 you should’ve put the scene where vegeta tells his own he don’t give a shit about them when trunks had to save bulma and his infant self from not existing
Oh that would had strengthened his point. I feel a lot of fans forget that. Or maybe they don't and they bring up what Goku does in the next arc. Something that is very similar if you know what I'm referring to.
5:49 - 6:18
Well, that was five years ago in-universe (six if you count the year Gohan spent in the Time Chamber). A lot of emotional maturity can happen in that time, especially when it is essentially half your lifespan up to that point.
Gohan was five when he did that. I look back at a lot of the things I used to do when i was five, and I am fucking mortified at how horrible a person I was back then. For example, I used to literally laugh when I overheard my dad in the other room beating my mom! I remember my sister telling me that it's not funny, and now, I 100% agree with her, but at the time, I saw it as no different than the slapstick comedy I saw on TV.
Gohan (A) wasn't old enough yet to have a conscience, and (B) was told to do it, not by a total stranger or an older kid on the playground, but by a grown-up man who his mom and dad explicitly said was trustworthy.
Another episode so soon? What a pleasant surprise. Thank you Mr. Mistare!
And this is where we can be grateful of DragonBall Z Kakarot as the game atleast tried giving Gohan and 16 an establish friendship protecting animals from poachers
11:00 so essentially Goku and especially Chi-Chi wanted a puppet instead of a child.
Just like most parents; always projecting who they want/wanted to be on their children.
Android 16 seems like the Gwen Stacy of Dragon Ball.
When Gwen Stacy was introduced into the Spider-Man comics, she wasn't interesting in the slightest. She was the most normal girl out of all of Peter Parker's girlfriends, with the only kind of interesting thing being that her dad was a cop while Spider-Man was still technically a vigilante. The whole point of it was to give Peter an anchor of normalcy to connect with when he's not wearing the webs. But it came at the sacrifice of Gwen possibly being interesting, so she was killed off, and THAT became the one interesting thing about her character that caused people to latch onto her until Spider-Gwen happened and was infinitely more compelling.
Android 16 has always had hype about him from the moment Gero refused to let him out of the pod, but he didn't really do much. Granted, hyping up 16 with a prophecy of doom is probably just something that Toriyama forgot to address when he shifted from the Androids to Cell as the main threat, but whatever. He refused to fight anyone except Goku due to a mix of programming and a naturally pacifistic personality. Not to invoke my childhood here, but in the early Funimation dub of Gohan ascending, they added internal dialogue where Gohan mused that even a fully mechanical being like Android 16 was able to love nature and dislike fighting. Much like how Gohan himself is bring portrayed as a pacifist that would rather hit the books than fight. Which isn't necessarily a betrayal of what Gohan was thinking in that moment, just something that crushes the impact of the transformation by giving voice to silent thoughts.
So the idea, from where I stand, was probably supposed to be along those lines. Even a machine could develop Gohan's personality morals, and even then, they were able to do what was needed in the moment while Gohan couldn't, when said machine would still be around and friends would be less beaten up if Gohan stepped up. Not necessarily executed in the best of ways, but assuming I'm not overthinking it, it's a decently baked idea, if nothing else.
Actually, when Gwen Stacy was first introduced, she was interesting. Fiesty, a bit of a bitch, trying to get Peter's attention and angered at his indifference (usually because he was worried about his Aunt). Similar to Videl. Once her dad was introduced, her characterization lessened to the 'Daddy's Girl' who cries a lot, although (like Videl in the Barry Kahn/SaiyaMan Movie Arc) she still retained some fire, like slapping a protestor or shouting at Aunt May.
These have the most unique video openings. Stands out especially out of how many dragon ball content creators there is out there!
You know, i have always liked the idea of Gohan taking Goku's role as the main character, with Goku finally passing on to the next life on his very last battle, i mean, one of the moments i enjoyed most in my rewatch of DBZ was the early Majin Buu saga with the Great Saiyaman stuff.
I think the appeal with Gohan becoming the new main character is that unlike most of the "Son takes the Father's place" kind of stories... Gohan is VERY different to Goku, and i love that, other series try to make the son of the main character be just a complete copy of his father so the transition doesn't alienate fans but just ends up making they miss the og main character, Gohan on the other hand was not a complete opposite to Goku but they certainly would react very different to many situations, they have a different approach to battle, Gohan can get angry more easy, Gohan doesn't actively seek out for stronger opponents... So it's a shame this plot line was thrown into the side fully at the end of the Buu Saga so we could have more Goku and Vegeta and make Gohan lose because of him getting too confident... Because you know, it's not like he learned not to do that in the previous arc, no way!
I've always liked Gohan suddenly being thrown in like that, there's no story arc per say for when, how and why things happen in real life and I love that style approach to story telling
Except story's aren't real life. Their suppose to have planning, direction, and focus which isn't all present here.
@@fightingmedialounge519 everyone doesn't enjoy stories the same way my friend. Some people actually have their own minds and approach to things. Regardless of what Dragon Ball is missing, its still successful and will continue to be, simple because of its uniqueness.
However real life isn’t going to be split up as rigidly as something like dbz is. The structure of dbz is story, timeskip with no big story, story, timeskip, etc. If it was a lot harder to split dbz up into sagas, this could’ve worked a lot better. But each saga is its own story in a way, and considering at this point they’re pretty long, it’s more removed from relevant gohan moments.
@@blogsanjay1031 That's doesn't mean that moment was exactly good written. It have some good and bad stuff, it could have been better.
@@blogsanjay1031 This isn't about enjoying the story or not, I think many of us enjoy the Cell arc including me, but when talking about Writing we refer to the quality of it. What it did good or bad. And it was bad the lack of focus on Gohan and 16. From a narrative stand point.
Considering how this story is started by Future Gohan inspiring Future Trunks, it would've been great if Future Trunks got to likewise inspire Gohan and get him to begin making steps into the main character role.
I think people compare Vegeta treating his kid better in a sense that they look at Cell Arc Goku letting his son fight Cell without help and later on purposely let Boo alive unlike Vegeta in the Boo Saga onwards which include Super and GT in which he is a much better father compared to Goku to them.
I really didn't like that 16 had to be killed so Gohan decides that he surpasses SSJ.
Also why didn't Cell use any of its countless moves instead of a self-destruct attack, buffing himself up like Trunks and use the most generic energy beam attack named Kamehameha?
Well, curious what you gonna say about the original Broly movie. Will it subvert my expectation? Or will you call Broly being a terrible character for hating Goku because he somehow remembers he cried as a baby and apparently has no personality like anyone who doesn't like classic Broly?
Paragus is the main antagonist of the film with Broly being the secondary antagonist with all the power. This role shifts after Paragus is killed by Broly. Broly does have a personality and its built i think well around what the characters roles are in the movie very organically. The crying thing is funny i just cant see it as anything as a joke played for laughs.
Great video as always, keep up the good work!
You are so good to us!!!! We are not worthy!
Looking back on it, the Gohan vs Cell fight onwards didn’t feel organic. Cell backed into a corner in a manner that spits out the only one of the two (till Super made 17 incredibly popular again) cyborgs/Androids/Jinzoningen that people wanted to be saved in case the heroes killed Cell with both androids inside of him and decided to kill himself in a way that Goku can be taken out of the fight while still on his own terms and not having his badassery be diminished by the worf effect. It requires Cell to drastically change his personality from a fight- loving, battle savvy narcissist to a dullard who makes the same mistakes that he specifically scolded Future Trunks earlier on to a dirty smug snake type bomb terrorist coward to justify said action. If the story ended on that note, I would’ve considered this to be the worst arc of the series.
It would’ve made more sense if Goku lost outright leading to his death, it forces Gohan to fight out of revenge, but it’s not enough. So Cell decides the Cell Jr tactic, but 16 does his kamikaze tactic- except it’s not removed- so the bomb destroys Cell. Only for it to be for nothing as Cell regenerates from it anyway. Gohan in despair and rage goes SSJ2 reactively to disintegrate Cell- destroying the Cell Jrs first, only for Cell to return as Super Perfect Cell. This makes Gohan doubt himself until the pep talk from Goku gives him the resolve to destroy Cell to the last....well Cell. It wouldn’t have felt as odd. And they can also wish back the twins later.
Honestly though Gohan still got it on his own. Gohan understood his plan and told cell about it and got it right even without being told.
True but then he is naive in seriously thinking Cell would just pack it up and leave. He has seen terribly evil people kill without remose. He knows Cell is the same way yet his stubbornness almost gets everyone killed.
@@spartanq7781 True, I mean Goku still didn't make the best call but even if he had it wouldn't have made a difference
I did not even watch the video yet and I agree with the title, why is he even in this arc?
Just found this series this week and I blitzed through all of it. Just wanted to say watching this has been wonderful it reminds me of plenty of the reasons I love Dragon ball and had had me thinking on aspects I hadn't really thought of before. So keep up the amazing work I can't wait to hear what you have to say about thw rest of this arc.
"Entering into a conflict where he has no personal stake" I don't know about that, if Cell wins he blows up the world, the world that Gohan lives on, as well as everyone he cares about. I think that works
That is not a personal stake. A personal stake would be if there was history between the two. There isn't any to speak of. Cell threatening to destroy the Earth is a planetary stake. That applies to everyone but the one who defeats doesn't have any connection with Cell. Gohan is just there because the plot demands it.
I’ve been waiting for you to cover SSJ2 since the very beginning and now seeing this I am so satisfied.
I wish 16 and Gohan got more development together and had a similar relationship to Eighter and Goku had. Maybe they could have bonded over being mostly peaceful beings that are put into positions where they must fight, Gohan could ask why he is always fighting in these scenarios and what makes him different from a machine without agency just going along with what others tell him to do, always being reactive and involved in other people's problems. That would actually reinforce his stage fright when Cell and Goku are relying on him to get angry when he just doesn't want to. That all could have developed that over the week they had off before the Cell games since 16 could have been fixed at any time and Goku/Gohan have no reason not to pop into Capsule Corp.
Edit* Shit you basically said the same thing in a later video of yours!
Yeah, the anime could've fixed this by having some moments between them, in the filler stuff.
Oh boy. I cant wait for the next video. It going to be MAXIMUM!!!
You could say it's "Legendary".
It's such a super violent fight. As opposed to all the other fights in the series that supposedly aren't.
It came to my realization that this exact duality between the non - killing (Human) and kill em all with one blow (Saiyan) is a major point for the character in super. And the "identity searching" is quite a big deal. Vegeta being more human like, Goku referring to himself as kakarot at the end of Broly... It is something that can really take the story telling of the franchise to a whole new level
Some of your finest work :D
This is a really good video. I do think 16's speech fits pretty well. He tells him that the pressure is on like Goku... but addresses something else as well. Gohan is afraid he'll be a monster if he doesn't hold back. 16 assures him he won't. That he can give his all without falling because he is a better PERSON (rather than warrior) than Gohan thinks. Considering his general unwillingness to fight, 16 is a more matured version of Gohan's own kinder nature. That's my take anyway
4:15 I think that Gohan discarded Piccolo's mantel because it is weighted, not because he wanted to pick up his father's mantel in a figurative manner. In fact, Gohan was mimicing Piccolo by discarding his mantel because Piccolo does the same thing when he gets serious in a fight.
People always say that Cell spitting out a bunch of miniature copies is an outlandish hat pull, but he WAS created by a scientist who thought that Saiyan conflict was the greatest battle ever fought. I think a little aside where Gero's robot grabs some dirt where the saibamen grew and sticks it in the computer that's building cell would fit right in with the other stuff in this arc.
Like father like son
Gohan has to struggle between two worlds (his alien saiyan fighting blood and the human, more settled and sort of relaxed human world). I always saw it as Gohan's arch to compromise and balance these two. It's like you said also, Chichi made the mistake to push him to be a scholar only while Goku got so optimistic with Gohan's talent that he projected himself on Gohan, making the same mistake as Chichi when she does it. Now, with Vegeta being a better father, people ignore that it was after Goku's death he became a better parental figure due to how Goku treated his son and not only survived but WON against Cell (with Vegeta's help but hey! Gohan did it! *cough*) and his son Trunks was killed- in front of him nonetheless. Vegeta reflected he made a mistake in the Time Chamber training with Trunks (Trunks didn't even tell Vegeta about his extra muscular Super Saiyan form, afraid of daddy Vegeta's temper- you know) and decided not to go that route in this new chance for a different future.
Good review. I was initially afraid you would take the 'Gohan was a born fighter and all that scholar stuff is BS' stance, but you give a holistic 'Gohan likes both adventure and studying' look (which you already commented upon in the second DBZ film dissection).
But I do believe the end of the Manga happens about 16 years later, not 26.
I'm referring to real world time here. This was 1993. It's now 2019. That's 26 years since we've been introduced to this concept.
@@MistareFusion Okay. Apologize for my mistake.
No problem!
Dude nice job keeping a quick workflow while still having quality
I always had a problem with the way Team Four Star handled Gohan's character arc & that scene in particular with him needing to power up against Cell. They played it off as Gohan being too much of a pansy to do anything, when that wasn't true. I kinda get what they were going for, but even in their Abridged parody version of the series, it doesn't add up. Even with their version of Gohan, it doesn't make sense for their version.
I feel like TFS started faltering once they started to take DBZA as a serious representation of the series from partway through the Androids Arc. In the first two arcs, it was a simple (yet great) parody, but then it ended up devolving, with all due respect to the hardworking creators, into a glorified fanfic.
I disagree. They said themselves that Season 3 was a love letter to the franchise &, if you actually rewatch Season 2, THAT'S where they really started taking it more seriously. And if you actually look at Season 3, it's still a funny show, it's just a different flavor of their humor. It's more situational than outright farce. Not that I don't enjoy Season 2, but it's just more farcical, & Season 1, up until episode 10, is just unpolished, low quality, & of the time. I don't mind that they started treating Season 3 differently, honestly. It gave a lot of good jokes & will probably age the best of the first 3, since Season 1 hasn't aged well & Season 2 has a few cracks already showing. If you look at some of the best sitcoms & parodies, they're more like Season 3 of DBZA than Season 1 or 2.
Where I find fault with it, however, is where TFS keep going with stupid fanon shit like "Goku's a bad father, Piccolo's a better father, Vegeta's a better father" & the like, even though those aren't true. What I was also talking about was the forced message they tried to do with Gohan being a weak pansy, even though their version of Gohan didn't have that in his previous scenes at any point in the series. What should've happened was that Gohan should've been called out on his emo bullshit, but I'm hoping for that in Season 4. Season 3 also didn't "devolve." In all reality, it was an evolution. The comedy grew more better (there were still traces of what they had from earlier, but it was more subtle & situational, as I said already) & they finally had a grip on the characters they didn't before...for the most part. Everything got better in Season 3, but there are a few cracks still, but I think it turned out really good.
The fact that TFS influenced Little Kuriboh to up the quality of Yugioh Abridged when they were originally copying _him_ because he started the whole thing is a plus because his show NEEDED it. They revolutionized the Abridging genre, which is very impressive. I don't think that was any small accomplishment either. They've become very successful people & that is due to Season 3 being as good as it is.
As for "glorified fanfic," I can see that. They definitely fixed some of the story problems inherent in the original work, but it's far from just a comedic take on the series.
Never stop doing the do
These videos make me month, for real!
I really like SSJ2 Gohan debut. But in recent years, i’ve been thinking that there’s some kind of backward movement going. And that is the idea of getting angry to win against the enemy after a year of training to control and master the super saiyan form. What do you think about this, Mistare ?
Do you mean the stuff super did with him? I know you didn't ask me but... I think Super mostly did Gohan Justice because after this arc has shown that Gohan doesn't want to only focus on fighting nor studying all the time so the next logical step would be him trying to handle both at the same time. And the Saiyaman episodes were either very funny or developed his family a bit more for example how Videl trusts Gohan not to cheat on her.
I loooove love love your vids! But I will try and counter your point on 16's death being pointless, Now yes, I agree that for better story telling purposes I feel during the 9 day wait Gohan should have visited Bulma while she was repairing 16, thus would have opened a one to one talk between Gohan and 16 about the conflict 16 has where he wants to kill Goku but he loves life. However I feel the scene still hold some weight even if they don't know each other cause there are times in real life where ppl won't listen to what family, and friends say but when a stranger tells them the same thing, that's when it can really open your eyes, this happens only cause we have this comfort zone where we may not listen to others we know or take their advice for granted just cause it feels like we heard it 1000 times, but when a stranger says it and dies after it may be something that starts to hit personally, cause Gohan's whole character arc conflict is that he's isn't strong enough to protect the ppl he cares about. As a toddler he was strong but not strong enough to save Goku from dying, PIccolo died cause he wasn't strong enough to attack Nappa when he was open, Yamcha, Tien and Choaitzu, died to Nappa as well cause Gohan was too afraid. Krillin and Vegeta, died to Freeza becaue he wasn't strong enough, and now 16 a person he doesn't even know is dying due to his lack of action. That hits him harder.
I mean a robot who actually likes nature & really doesn't want to hurt innocent lives motivating gohan it's ok to fight & let yourselves lose sounds very fitting 🤷♂️
BEEN A WHILE.
I'm gonna enjoy this.
Now this is crazy, 2 vids in a month ha!
Well that was quick.
Beat me to it
If Gohan punched Cell again would he coughed up 17 ?
@nicholas
I dunno but i want to do that in an alt fight of pan u16 vs Cell if she didn't kill him while he's badly injured in an version of Dragon Ball Multiverse to show Pan's respect, afterall in my version Vegito DID let old Kai release her potential and be ultimate, thus not dying by bojack aka the guy who her father killed many years ago in u16
I watched the ads before hand. I hope you made a profit...of some sort.
Woah this as quick!
Apologies for being a little late. This was another fantastic video by you and I’m so happy you talked about the ‘Goku not actually being a bad father’ thing. However, I do slightly disagree about the point you made about Gohan not being apart to the story until now. While true, he’s at least still been doing stuff or at least somewhat attached to what’s happening in the story. Unlike Goku in the Frieza Arc, who was just stuck in a pod for most of it, Gohan has always been there since the beginning. While true he hasn’t really fought, he’s still always been apart of the story in someway. I just can’t agree fully to say he didn’t belong in the final acts of the Arc because he was still around and experiencing everything going on in the story.
Personally, the way that cell nervously explains his explosion to Gohan makes me think that he was bluffing. after all, why take a villain at his word? it's only natural that cell would wanna do what he can to prevent Gohan from undoing his final act of rebellion. Yeah, it's understandable that Gohan and/or the others might not wanna take the risk but still, i find it funny that everyone takes cell at his words about his dumb self destruct.
I like too see Gohan as he's a scholar but if he needs to protect his friends and family or save the world he'll do it.
Really irks me when people say Goku is a bad dad. Now bad husband on the other hand... Vegeta is a better husband (eventually).
I guess we'll just pretend that panel where he watched his wife and son be shot down in a plane and not do anything didn't happen.
@@SomeRandomDude000000 Well, to be fair, he wasn't married to Bulma yet when that happened.
But sadly, this is what they are now, in the super... Geico (I refuse to call that dumbass with his name) got über flanderized to dumbass, to the point that he acts way too immaturely to have meaningful moments with the family, and putting EVERYTHING on danger (times 8~9 if I am correct because it is fun, and not getting scolded for it doesn't help.
Whereas Vegeta's scenes with the family, are still a drastic departure in better, from his character in the cell arc, truly showing his growth in a better person.
Keep making these
Thank you. I wasn't planning to stop.
Another awesome video. Time for my timestamps that few if any will notice.
7:35, one could make the character development/self-imposing (The word for projecting yourself onto others?) argument for Piccolo. He did it, but when he died, he regretted this action.
For Chichi, I think Gohan growing to reject her extremism, only to go along with her in the end, is rather reflective of reality. Not exactly "It's just a phase, mom", but similar. Hating the haystack but discovering the needle later.
Wow. Never really considered all the plot-specific powers at play until I watched this series.
Love this ep. the “goku is a bad father” has become a meme that takes everything out of context. It’s annoying. I really like the the moment of goku realizing the mistake he’s made, putting way too much confidence & his views unto his son, who, is not similar to himself. Really humanizes goku.
Its annoying to me because it feels like criticism today is beginning to gear more and more towards a lack of understanding that characters can make mistakes too and learn from them
It’s literally the most basic form of things necessary to give a story actual weight.
What kind of interesting story consists of characters doing nothing but make the right choices 24/7?
A character doesn’t have to be relatable in order to be good, just understandable.
The issue is that, even when a characters motives ARE understandable and directly vocalized and televised within the series itself and you literally see them grow and learn from it, you STILL get mfs who praddle on about how much of a monster of a dad cell arc goku is (when vegeta is literally RIGHT there).
Tbh i wholly blame shit like cinemasins and nostalgia critic for making this type of criticism becoming the norm.
Like it gets to a point where they’re just blaming the story/writer for their literal inability to pay attention 💀
Gohan was never a "pacifist" only a scare child, the pacifist thing comes out of nowhere and i can't believe the gohan fanboys keep pretending is a part of his character, when gohan wanted to fight and help in the past arcs.
by the way goku was right.
Well Gohan is older at this point and his dad is pressuring him by living though him to beat a being that wants to enjoy himself who's also putting pressure on him... It's all a game to them in a way plus he's at the point in power that he see himself more of threat to the planet than cell, Gohan being a pacifist is maybe came out of nowhere but it makes sense after he's knowing what he's dealing with.