For what it's worth, here's a little tip/note regarding the 2020 box fill updates for EGC's. Basically, once there are 4 or more EGC's in the box, just divide the total by 4 to get the required allowances. That is, for your example with 46 EGC's in the box, there is no need to think, "Well, there's 1 allowance for the first 4, and 42/4 allowances for the rest". Instead, you can just calculate 46/4 for the total EGC allowances needed, as the math works out the same, to 11.5 in this case. I don't know about anyone else, but that wasn't obvious to me at first, but now that I know it, it simplifies things a little, mentally speaking. Now, if I ever actually come across a box with 46 or more (or even many less) EGC's, I'm outta there! :)
"Party foul" lol. I'm going to write that in an inspection. "Item #14 turn the receptical under the sink that is facing up onto its side. This is not a violation but a definite party foul and should be corrected."
As a fellow electrical instructor, I use this video as a review before a box fill test. By the way, practice makes better because perfect does not need practice. just something I teach my students. Thank you for your continue support of the trade. God bless.
Actually, the extension ring shown at the beginning is for a 4-11/16 square box, hence the larger capacity. You can tell by the mounting screw locations and the ko placement is farther apart. In Chicagoland, we refer to that size jbox as an 11b box.
Glad to see you on my learning screen again! I’m also glad to see that the second paragraph of the clamp fill section might get struck. I never understood it either.
What a mess in the last pic, Mr Ryan, I will never do that wow i have seen a lot of videos about gutters calculations or u pull, angle pull and so forth but this is is insane, wow. Spechless, but thanks for all your videos sir, always following you in all your videos. Great
i heard from somewhere else that heat isnt the real reason we have conduit fill. i think if i remember correctly its simply because it would be too hard or troublesome to pull too many wires whether there's damage or not especially in 360 bends. i think they might have mentioned something about noise or feed back so maybe having copper wires all close to eachother could induce something but i think there are grounding methodes for certain stuff like that
As a commercial Electrician I’ve NEVER calculated box fill. I always oversized my box’s. I always use deep box’s unless the wall is too shallow and IF more than 2 MC cables in a box I up it to 4-11/16 deep box. ALL home run box’s get 4-11/16 box whether one MC or 4. ALL switch box’s get 4-11/16 box with 3/4” conduit to above ceiling.
you really got a few hundred million likes but most people hit the thumbs up button twice to show how much they love you. i only hit it once though..your alright lol
It’s very odd. We have ran into a pissing match at work on how to calculate this and over the I went through the internet looking for information and directly to your RUclips looking for this video…and tadah you made. Universe is mysterious.
You just earned a new subscriber! I love your attitude and ability to teach. Side question for ya. With all this box fill mentioned, what is the wire length they use to get these calculations? I know other places in the code mentions length minimums, so do they go off that minimum? Thanks for making such great content!
Hi there Ryan. Thank you for all your videos and content. I know this is an older video but really was a great easy to understand explanation about box fill. I recently shared the video link with a friend and he asked about the specific reason for 22.5 volume. After watching the video again myself to see what he was referring to I realized I either missed it or that you did not come back to it. At you mention that there is a very specific reason for the 22.5 volume. Would you be able to explain what this reason is? Thank you.
I would have to look that up in my 1978, but I don't believe the NEC has ever had such a restriction. In UL Product Cateogry QCIT it specifically states that "one or more" can be uaed.
Hi Ryan, good video. You have or know a reference to why the EGC is only counted as a unit in the box fill calculations. In new versions the change adds 1/4 unit after the 4 leads but can still cause a fill problem, from my perspective. The only reason that comes to mind is that since they are not current-carrying conductors, they do not add additional temperature in a box. Any idea?
Talking about conductors that just pass through boxes... yeah the code needs to address that. So needed to covert from a regular indoor wire to an outdoor conduit. Obvious I wasn't going to just have the wire go into the conduit, although I didn't check if that was to code (this is my house and I'm not an electrician, although I did consult one), I've only ever seen a transition to conduit in a box, so that's what I did. I used a metal box as nothing but a pass through, no splices no nothing. Then when I went to show someone the box I got and unpleasant surprise, the entire metal box was energized and ungrounded. In spite of the issue my electrician friend said the box was to code, but he thought that it was stupid. As it turns out, even though I couldn't find any marks in the romex one of the screws that seal the box had some how managed to penetrate the insulation on one of the hot wires. Well sufficed to say I opened the romex and grounded the box properly! All metal that can be in direct contact with a live wire needs to be grounded!
How can you divide the EGCs as 4 if they are #12s? Im confused because wouldnt it be ¼ of 2.25 cu in since there #12s? Or are EGCs counted as 2.00 like a #14 is no matter what?
Regarding Internal Cable Clamps: at 16:38 you say that it’s not too often that we have to deal with internal cable clamps - but what about non-metallic boxes? I know that if you ask 20 electricians whether the clamps on NM boxes count 19.5 would say “no!” But, when you look at the information provided by, e.g. Carlon, you can see that they believe the clamps do count and need to be deducted from the volume available. See question at bottom of page 3: carlonsales.com/techinfo/faqs/FAQ-ZipBoxes.pdf “The volume inside an outlet box does not include any deductions for integral clamps. The clamps are removed from the box when the volume is determined by UL. Therefore a single deduction in the NEC is required for the space the clamps take up inside the box.”
As a facilities manager, hashtag not an electrician, I find the maximum allowable conductors in most boxes to be way, way more that is reasonable to work with. Fortunately, I don't often run into these maximums. And it goes without saying that a lot of this is just my own lack of skill.
Also you mentioned single conductor do not have bending space requirements. Where can I find this or how would a test question ask this! Thank you for everything you do. You energy and information has saved lives and money
Sorry people with fat fingers should not attempt to type on cell phones. Wish the NEC would address the extra deep 120 volt receptacles with USB &/or cell phone charger ports. At the hospital that I retired from we had Hospital grade tamper resistant ones that were over 2.5" deep. Maybe they should supply a rubber maker with each 10 pack of them. Only kidding. I always used a deep box and never used duplex switches for any new work. Great to see you back. Can remember back in the 1970 when GFCI receptacles came out and you had to install a 1" deep wiremold box onto wall case to get them to fit.
Iam confused on wires passing through the box. If we have 4 wires passing through with out splice, we count each wire ones total 4 or all 4 wires count as total one?
Wait a minute, you're telling me there are NO minimum bending radius limits for individual conductors under 1000v? Is that just for 6awg and smaller? Or all conductors under 1000v?
for code section {314.16 B 1} each conductor that passes through the box without Splice or termination Shall Be counted Once { We count foe the entire wires passing through Once {or} we count for each individual conductor Once?!!!!! my understanding is for each individual conductor we count ONE
I've always been curious why the right side of (t)314.1(a) allows for a greater capacity than is calculated in (t)314.16(b). There isn't, to my knowledge, any ability to "round up" ie.... 4 X 1/4 round/octagonal box allows 5 - #8s. 5-#8s is 15in3. Box allows 12.5in3.. There are a few examples of this... Why? Anybody have a code reference why this is allowed? Seems that it should be rounded down and only 4 conductors allowed since you can't have a partial conductor in a box. Besides devices, clamps, etc. makes the right side of (t)314.16(a) garbage anyway. Seems like it should be removed IMO.
I will prefer if large devices coun for 3 (some people want to save 15 cents instead of doing something right), also I did not know that it was illegal to use a different type of screw (drywall screws) in nonmetallic boxes to hold the devices, I see that so often
You supposed that 8 AWG wire would be going to a 50A receptacle around 21:35 I definitely think 6 would be more appropriate. Great video other than that
hahahaha I ran into this in Malls on many occasions 12x12x4 pull box FILLED several conduits and multiple 12 MC's or 4x4xbox with 5 extensions on it..... Glad I don't do that anymore
Thank you Sir for your hard and consistent work to give us this knowledge on an understandable level!
Best channel on the electrical field. Great way to review any electrical topic. Thank you sir.
For what it's worth, here's a little tip/note regarding the 2020 box fill updates for EGC's.
Basically, once there are 4 or more EGC's in the box, just divide the total by 4 to get the required allowances.
That is, for your example with 46 EGC's in the box, there is no need to think, "Well, there's 1 allowance for the first 4, and 42/4 allowances for the rest".
Instead, you can just calculate 46/4 for the total EGC allowances needed, as the math works out the same, to 11.5 in this case.
I don't know about anyone else, but that wasn't obvious to me at first, but now that I know it, it simplifies things a little, mentally speaking. Now, if I ever actually come across a box with 46 or more (or even many less) EGC's, I'm outta there! :)
Ryan- just want to let you know how much I appreciate you for providing this good information.
Much appreciated
I'll admit, I came to see that photo at the end. And I was not disappointed! Learned quite a bit too. ;)
Until you've rewired one of those after a fire, you've never really rewired anything.
Excelent content Ryan, one of the most violated items of the NEC. Clear as mud. Great job. Thanks
Hi Ryan! Good to see you in good health and back to doing what you do best. Happy Holidays!
“Hit the down button twice to show the world how much you don’t like me”, that’s a good one. The second press cancels the first.😂
😑
Great to see you back Mr Jackson, keeping us sharp. Happy Thanksgiven to you and your love ones. charlotte,NC
Cheers Ignacio!
01 apprentice here. Great
video, very informative!
"Party foul" lol. I'm going to write that in an inspection. "Item #14 turn the receptical under the sink that is facing up onto its side. This is not a violation but a definite party foul and should be corrected."
Fantastic video with so much useful information! Thank you for kicking down some your knowledge. It doesn’t go unnoticed
Love your videos! Always so informative. God bless, and cheers from Pennsylvania!
Thanks John!
@@RyanJacksonElectrical
You're welcome! I look forward to seeing your videos
Thanks for the concise and very informative video, Mr. Jackson.
As a fellow electrical instructor, I use this video as a review before a box fill test. By the way, practice makes better because perfect does not need practice. just something I teach my students. Thank you for your continue support of the trade. God bless.
Actually, the extension ring shown at the beginning is for a 4-11/16 square box, hence the larger capacity. You can tell by the mounting screw locations and the ko placement is farther apart. In Chicagoland, we refer to that size jbox as an 11b box.
Agreed, definitely a 4 & 11.
Glad to see you on my learning screen again! I’m also glad to see that the second paragraph of the clamp fill section might get struck. I never understood it either.
What a mess in the last pic, Mr Ryan, I will never do that wow i have seen a lot of videos about gutters calculations or u pull, angle pull and so forth but this is is insane, wow. Spechless, but thanks for all your videos sir, always following you in all your videos. Great
Love the videos great teacher. Today just passed my Tx journeyman
Sweet! Congratulations!
i heard from somewhere else that heat isnt the real reason we have conduit fill. i think if i remember correctly its simply because it would be too hard or troublesome to pull too many wires whether there's damage or not especially in 360 bends. i think they might have mentioned something about noise or feed back so maybe having copper wires all close to eachother could induce something but i think there are grounding methodes for certain stuff like that
Conduit fill has nothing to do with heat. It's about making sure the conductors you install can be pulled without stress or damage.
As a commercial Electrician I’ve NEVER calculated box fill. I always oversized my box’s. I always use deep box’s unless the wall is too shallow and IF more than 2 MC cables in a box I up it to 4-11/16 deep box. ALL home run box’s get 4-11/16 box whether one MC or 4. ALL switch box’s get 4-11/16 box with 3/4” conduit to above ceiling.
Awesome video, appreciate your content. Keep up the good work. Thanks 👍
Excellent video. Keep in mind, nonmetallic boxes can also have cable clamps that clamp down on Romex.
If you are wondering if a box is overfilled, it is.
Great explanation Ryan!
you really got a few hundred million likes but most people hit the thumbs up button twice to show how much they love you. i only hit it once though..your alright lol
I hit it 3 times just to be sure.
It’s very odd. We have ran into a pissing match at work on how to calculate this and over the I went through the internet looking for information and directly to your RUclips looking for this video…and tadah you made. Universe is mysterious.
Glad to see you back. Wish the NEC would address the extra deep 120 volt receptacles with
Sorry cont . The 120 volt receptacles with.
I didn’t understand why 12:29 was a “party foul?” What’s the issue exactly?
You just earned a new subscriber! I love your attitude and ability to teach. Side question for ya. With all this box fill mentioned, what is the wire length they use to get these calculations? I know other places in the code mentions length minimums, so do they go off that minimum? Thanks for making such great content!
0:40 I see what you did there Ryan. Nice one!
I made sure to hit the thumbs up twice, just to show that extra love. ;)
Hi there Ryan.
Thank you for all your videos and content. I know this is an older video but really was a great easy to understand explanation about box fill.
I recently shared the video link with a friend and he asked about the specific reason for 22.5 volume. After watching the video again myself to see what he was referring to I realized I either missed it or that you did not come back to it.
At you mention that there is a very specific reason for the 22.5 volume. Would you be able to explain what this reason is? Thank you.
Hubbell part #809c cubic inches is 6.5 for 2 Decora devices installed in a 4 square box when using this cover
Nice job Ryan...hope you're ok
Always enjoy and appreciate your efforts....Robert from Omaha
Keep up the good work
When did the E ring "quantity" change? 1978 code restricted E rings to two maximum.
I would have to look that up in my 1978, but I don't believe the NEC has ever had such a restriction. In UL Product Cateogry QCIT it specifically states that "one or more" can be uaed.
Several times had to go into a box that had 3 e rings. Should not be allowed.
On your last point about the 11½, 8 gauge conductors... Maybe that's where the AHJ's discretionary power should be granted??
Hi Ryan, good video. You have or know a reference to why the EGC is only counted as a unit in the box fill calculations. In new versions the change adds 1/4 unit after the 4 leads but can still cause a fill problem, from my perspective. The only reason that comes to mind is that since they are not current-carrying conductors, they do not add additional temperature in a box. Any idea?
I think it is because, although they add volume, damaging their insulation doesn't really matter. That's my opinion.
@@RyanJacksonElectrical Right, good point. It is a matter of interest since many electricians ask me the question. Thanks for the reply.
I wonder if Alumiconns Will ever make their way into the NEC for box fill requirements.
The extension ring around 3:50 has got to be for a 4-11/16ths box.
Yep, I think you're right! Good catch
Talking about conductors that just pass through boxes... yeah the code needs to address that. So needed to covert from a regular indoor wire to an outdoor conduit. Obvious I wasn't going to just have the wire go into the conduit, although I didn't check if that was to code (this is my house and I'm not an electrician, although I did consult one), I've only ever seen a transition to conduit in a box, so that's what I did. I used a metal box as nothing but a pass through, no splices no nothing. Then when I went to show someone the box I got and unpleasant surprise, the entire metal box was energized and ungrounded. In spite of the issue my electrician friend said the box was to code, but he thought that it was stupid. As it turns out, even though I couldn't find any marks in the romex one of the screws that seal the box had some how managed to penetrate the insulation on one of the hot wires. Well sufficed to say I opened the romex and grounded the box properly! All metal that can be in direct contact with a live wire needs to be grounded!
At 11:47 you count 9 #14 conductors, but I count 12... what am I missing? I see (4) 14-2's and (1) 14-3.
I think he miscounted but I’m actually seeing 11 ccc’s.
4 14/2’s= 8
1 14/3 = 3
8+3=11
How can you divide the EGCs as 4 if they are #12s? Im confused because wouldnt it be ¼ of 2.25 cu in since there #12s? Or are EGCs counted as 2.00 like a #14 is no matter what?
Regarding Internal Cable Clamps: at 16:38 you say that it’s not too often that we have to deal with internal cable clamps - but what about non-metallic boxes?
I know that if you ask 20 electricians whether the clamps on NM boxes count 19.5 would say “no!” But, when you look at the information provided by, e.g. Carlon, you can see that they believe the clamps do count and need to be deducted from the volume available. See question at bottom of page 3: carlonsales.com/techinfo/faqs/FAQ-ZipBoxes.pdf
“The volume inside an outlet box does not include any deductions for integral clamps. The clamps are removed from the box when the volume is determined by UL. Therefore a single deduction in the NEC is required for the space the clamps take up inside the box.”
Excellent video
As a facilities manager, hashtag not an electrician, I find the maximum allowable conductors in most boxes to be way, way more that is reasonable to work with. Fortunately, I don't often run into these maximums. And it goes without saying that a lot of this is just my own lack of skill.
Hello. From Chicago!
Cheers, I hope you're well!
Welcome back
Thanks again for the videos.
🥃🥃🍺🍺🍺🍿🎯
7:50 I think you meant 50.5?? Or did I add incorrectly?
50.5. 😀
That is the same in New York?
Also you mentioned single conductor do not have bending space requirements. Where can I find this or how would a test question ask this! Thank you for everything you do. You energy and information has saved lives and money
The same place you find any rule that doesn't exist...nowhere. Seriously though, there is no requirement.
The rules mostly state what you can not do or limits to what you can do not what you can't do.
Sorry people with fat fingers should not attempt to type on cell phones. Wish the NEC would address the extra deep 120 volt receptacles with USB &/or cell phone charger ports. At the hospital that I retired from we had Hospital grade tamper resistant ones that were over 2.5" deep. Maybe they should supply a rubber maker with each 10 pack of them. Only kidding. I always used a deep box and never used duplex switches for any new work. Great to see you back. Can remember back in the 1970 when GFCI receptacles came out and you had to install a 1" deep wiremold box onto wall case to get them to fit.
Iam confused on wires passing through the box. If we have 4 wires passing through with out splice, we count each wire ones total 4 or all 4 wires count as total one?
@@bimcoachbim4852 Four, unless they are EGCs.
Great information
At the 5:55 mark or so you mention the 4 square box with extension ring and a plaster ring. I dont think that is a plaster ring.
Funny, I didn't even click to that point of the video but I know you must be talking about the two-gang raised steel cover. Argh! You're 100% right.
Wait a minute, you're telling me there are NO minimum bending radius limits for individual conductors under 1000v? Is that just for 6awg and smaller? Or all conductors under 1000v?
All.
Take a peak at 300.34, then notice that no such requirement exists in Part 1 of Article 300.
Thank you. I'll use this knowledge to my advantage from now on.
Good work you seem different from when you used to be with mike holt
for code section {314.16 B 1} each conductor that passes through the box without Splice or termination Shall Be counted Once { We count foe the entire wires passing through Once {or} we count for each individual conductor Once?!!!!! my understanding is for each individual conductor we count ONE
hah; never seen those barriers before, I really need to buy your illustrated code books!
max extension rings I've seen is 5. lucky me.
His three volume set is invaluable! Makes people think I'm a code guru!
in the paragraph talking about the 314.16 B1 {Exception} it should be {14AWG} not {16 AWG} as its written in the paragraph you provided {It's a typo}
I've always been curious why the right side of (t)314.1(a) allows for a greater capacity than is calculated in (t)314.16(b). There isn't, to my knowledge, any ability to "round up" ie.... 4 X 1/4 round/octagonal box allows 5 - #8s. 5-#8s is 15in3. Box allows 12.5in3.. There are a few examples of this... Why? Anybody have a code reference why this is allowed? Seems that it should be rounded down and only 4 conductors allowed since you can't have a partial conductor in a box. Besides devices, clamps, etc. makes the right side of (t)314.16(a) garbage anyway. Seems like it should be removed IMO.
More grounding video I'd appreciate that
As far as that last picture goes, if you’re gonna do it wrong, at least do it BIG!!! 😂 kudos to whoever is responsible for that monster 😆
I will prefer if large devices coun for 3 (some people want to save 15 cents instead of doing something right), also I did not know that it was illegal to use a different type of screw (drywall screws) in nonmetallic boxes to hold the devices, I see that so often
sir may i insert some. would it be possible for you to discuss about lumens & watts. subcriber here, Electrician from Philippines
Is that pic of the giant JB stuffed with wires real?
Yep!
8:27 that’s the bottom
You supposed that 8 AWG wire would be going to a 50A receptacle around 21:35
I definitely think 6 would be more appropriate.
Great video other than that
???
@@RyanJacksonElectrical could you be specific on what you are questioning me on? Or is your intent belittlement?
@@hloyhesit8403 No, I genuinely didn't understand your question/statement. A 50A receptacle is very often supplied by 8AWG copper.
sorry the 6:05 mark
Some of these pics gave me a brain hemorrhage
hahahaha I ran into this in Malls on many occasions 12x12x4 pull box FILLED several conduits and multiple 12 MC's or 4x4xbox with 5 extensions on it..... Glad I don't do that anymore
My god usa is diffcult wiring on boxes us easy in uk
You crack me up - click dislike twice? 😂.
No way that box fill at the end was real.
Thumbs down 👎 button pressed twice like you advised! 😂
Thanks John Cena