I'm a second year student in the IEC and I had no idea what a tap was let alone the rules. I asked my instructor and he didn't explain 90% of what you did. I've spent all week trying to comprehend and learn taps and you explained it so well you taught me everything I need to know in 28 minutes. Thank you!
Hello Ryan. Journeyman from Texas here. Really enjoy your videos. With your explanations and showing examples in photos really stays with me and not boring at all. It’s really so great that you’re sharing your electrical knowledge and experiences with us all. God bless.
Well thank you for that. I kept reading the tap rule and other writings about it and was drawing the correct conclusions, but TOTALLY overthinking it and second guessing it. Your real world explanations and explanations of the "why" cleared it up in my mind.
Thanks for the excellent video. I work in solar PV installations and we often create a back-fed connection to feeders using Insulated Piercing Connectors (IPC). Although this is a supply connection and not a load connection, we refer to these as "taps" and follow the tap rules for conductor sizing and protection. A typical situation is using an IPC to connect a #6 CU PV output circuit coming from a fused disconnect (60A) to a 4/0 AL feeder that runs from the outside service disconnect to the main breaker of a 200A service panel. We had one inspector tell us that in addition to our PV supply conductor, the portion of the feeder between our "tap" connection and the service panel is considered a "tap" conductor and must comply with tap rules for sizing, length and protection. This becomes an issue when that feeder is SER cable since the portion between the IPC connection and the service panel is not enclosed in raceway. 240.21(B)(1)(3). Does the inspectors interpretation of what is a "tap conductor" seem correct to you in this case?
Great video and like I've said in the electrical code discussion group and your videos. Upgrading your microphone game will take your videos to a whole new level. Keep on keeping on
You're a great teacher! I'm a software engineer who's looking into what a feeder tap is for planned DIY solar + whole house backup hybrid inverter + batteries installation (of course I'll permit it first and inspect before turning on) and your explanation is very clear. Thank you.
Nice story about your friend's 30 amp RV situation and remembering to use the tap rule to your advantage because feeder taps are mainly used in large commercial and industrial settings.
Thank you again for another great video. I'm only left with two question at this point. When using the outside tap rules, I am assuming that direct burial is considered protecting the wire from physical damages when applying all the rules for direct burial. Am I right? I'm asking because the others ones mention using a raceway but this one does not. Also do you provide an online ce course?
Thank you for breaking this down Barney style. Yes, this is a very confusing section of the NEC, just below calculating transformer inductance for service entrance equipment (difficult for me) I look forward to more videos. This is actually a bit better than Mike Holt in some ways. Why? What we see in the field, in the wild, does not always look like what is in the book.
Very important to note is that section 240.21(B) covers feeders. A feeder is a conductor feeding a panel, or sub-panel from the main service equipment. The 30 amp circuit is a branch circuit and the feeder tap rules do not apply to branch circuits.
Great video! Would you please help understand if I use tap conductors with the same size of an upstream feeder tap cable? Could it be tapped to the load side of a bus protected by a main breaker or does 240.21 applies only to cable/cable taps?
Surge suppressors are also strange critters. They *normally* have no load, yet they’re rated for 100 *KILOamps,* for example. It’s only going to conduct that for a number of *microseconds,* so there’s *normally* no problem. The problem is that some of the circuitry may *fail SHORTED* after a large surge, so they do need protection. Plus, I guess that _Available Fault Current_ goes out the window, since the surge current from a direct/indirect lightning strike doesn’t conform to the _AFC_ calculations.
Ryan Great explanation thanks. But my question is what about the neutrals. We're doing a lot of tapping off of main panels in the solar industry today and one of the issues that comes up is, when tapping the line side of the panel, is it required to tap the neutral or can you land the neutral on the bus bar? I can't find that code and inspectors treat it differently. So I've been told. I'd like to figure that one out. Thank you
Great Video!! Well done explaining all the details along with quick examples as you explain. This is a good way for viewers to confirm that what you are explaining is being understood correctly. One question, if you read this, can you explain the reference in the video where you were sizing a conductor for the 112 amp load and you mentioned " since its over 100 amps" and you used the 75 deg. column. Is this in reference to 110.14 ? What is this saying exactly. Thanks !!
Are Ryan's first two explanations (10' tap rule & 25' tap rule) also applicable to a 900v DC battery circuit? 240.21 seems agnostic about that but does another section of the NEC disallow it? Thanks in advance, generous RUclips teachers~
Hello Ryan can you clarify in Solar line side tap. Do the neutral and ground get bonded in the fuse box because it is considered a first mean of disconnect? There seems a lot of confusion on the topic. Thank you for the great videos
How to find the breaker? Short circuit! Then just look for the tripped breaker. Unless you have a faulty breaker and it just holds until the main circuit breaker pops!
Hello Ryan, great videos, I have a question on the tap cans that are on the service side, does the tap rules apply to them? Let’s say there’s a utility transformer feeding a tap can, from the tap can there’s a 2000 amp switch gear and 5 -600amp main breaker disconnects. Does the tap rules apply to my conductors after the tap can?
Thanks Ryan. I absolutely Can tap a #8 wire to a 100 amp feeder in a meter bank to feed a 50amp sub panel considering the distance of 10 feet right? Thank you for your videos.
Ryan, Concerning the Feeder Tap Rule 240.21 (B) (1) Just because it's code, does that make it right ! As a licensed NJ Home Inspector I find myself in a very gray area because we need to report our findings to our client. Home Inspectors are not allowed to quote any codes, and are taught that feeder taps need to be called out. Any wiring exiting the panel needs to be fused despite what the codes say. Also, Solar connections which back-feed the panel that are tapped into the feeders should be called out as well. As A NJ Licensed home inspector, I routinely call out this. If a fire starts because of the unfused wiring, I do not want to find myself in front of a jury.
Why would you think a feeder tap is dangerous? If I was the seller I would be furious that you are telling a buyer something about my property that is 100 percent false.
Maybe I didn't explain so good, sorry ! In the home inspection world, you need to report on what you see. When the solar installation is Back-feeding the panel by way of the 10ft rule, those particular wires are in the house and are non-fused, and in the inspection world, no protection means a possible hazard. I have been trying to find out when revisions were made to 240.21 to allow this. The correct way to back-feed a panel using solar is quite clear, the wiring must feed the panel through a breaker installed the farthest away from the main breaker, but if the electrician who is working with the solar company encounters a full panel, they simply use the 10ft rule and use pinch connectors to connect the wires into the main feeders. As in inspector I do not know if this in correct, & by not informing the client, I assume the liability. I do not care about the seller's feelings. Again... If a fire starts due to those particular wires and I did not inform the client prior, I will find myself held liable. Just because it's code, does that make it right ! By the way, when did they revise the code to allow this ? @@RyanJacksonElectrical
does that mean one could supply three 100 amp panels from a 200 amp fused disconnect such as a firemans disconnect by tapping at the bottom of the disconnect?
20:42 a lot of pool contractors do what you did for your friend. I’ve also seen them “tap” to the load side of the meter, before any OCPD. I didn’t know how that was allowed, and if I’m understanding you correctly, it is NOT 😂
So for the example at 7:30 , if the 1/0 feeder was wired to a terminal block with TWO 1/0 wires coming off the block (instead of 8awg) each of those 1/0 wires would still be feeders and not feeder taps correct?
I had a question about the raceway. Does that mean you couldn't start the tap in the breaker panel you would have to put a wire way/ trough in to make the taps?
My last education was 2011. I’m trying to re-educate myself. I saw the ratings and was very confused. Thank your for the clarification in the comment. This video is awesome!!!
Just had to feed a transfer switch for an 80kw generator and thus a a 150a 480v generator sub panel, from a 400a main panel, for which there are no 200a breakers available, tapped directly off the end of the buzz with 3/0 copper directly to 200a fused disconnect.
Hi Ryan, Can a Busbar or a Flexbar that does not adhere to any of the Article 240.21, 215.3, 230 or 240.1 be regarded as "Tap Conductor". Or this term "Tap Conductor" is exclusively reserved for Wired Conductor? What I understand is that even a Busbar or Flexbar can be regarded as Tapped conductor. Please provide your feedback.
hi, if i'm tapping to a fire pump and jockey pump, do i still need to put a disconnecting means after the tap? if yes, do i have to size the disconnecting means for the fire pump as per locked rotor current? thanks
what happens with feeder and tap rules with solar/batteries, in other words you have two sources of supply? say i have a utility power flowing thru a tesla 200 amp gateway, two 200 amp load panels with 200 amp main breaker, and a 400 amp generation panel with 8x tesla powerwall 2+'s (8*7kW=56kW batteries), and 20 kW of solar. so 76kW, or 320 amps of generation in the 400 amp panel. Would the feeder need to be 600 amps (or a 600 amp 4 way terminal block) and would this be compliant??
@6:00 The end of a conductor insulation changing colors. I would say it's a bad connection. I have seen loose connections on neutral bars and breakers, where the insulation was crispy and flaking off for a few inches, and the conductor was a different color, just because the screw wasn't tightened. I just snip off the bad section extend the wire and terminate it properly.
@26:50 Not likely, but "it's all outside" so there should be no house to burn down, right? (having had excessively long runs on a farm... 1000ft of copper is a pretty big heatsink.) Anyone with a 1000' spool of 14/2 wanna run an experiment? [Edit: At 1000', that should be about 25A, or 3kW to be dissipated over 2000' of copper (14awg)]
Hi Ryan, I realize this video is a little old, but I have question about 240.21(B)5 Outdoor Taps of Unlimited Length - I understand its the "Wild West" with the unlimited length with the tap conductors. My question is, do the outdoor taps still have to be 1/3 of the feeder (over 25ft.) they are being taped from?
Hey Ryan i have a question, if you see this i would love to be answered! can you tap a feeder, at any length, so long as you keep the wire size the same as the originating OCD? Example is feeding one MLO panel with a few 20's and a 30 amp breakers in it, tapping onto said feeder via a double lug on said panel, then going 150 feet away, with the same gauge wire, to feed another panel of the same set up. feeder is 100amp wire on a 100 breaker. ???? hope this makes sense. ive never heard of tapping a feeder like it was a branch circuit conductor basically, so it sparked my interest. and although it sparked my feelers, now that i think of it, all three aspects of GF OC and OV are all met throughout, so im just wondering if thats legit? hope this makes sense lol, im sure it doesnt, but id appreciate some input! i can email you a diagram if you are willing to help me brain think gooder! The only thing that i think is violated, is they do not terminate at a breaker or fuse, and have no disconnecting means other than the main breaker that is 100's of feet away, thats what im pretty sure makes this not kosher
An even weirder situation that I have had a hard time wrapping my mind around is using 15 amp receptacles on a 20 amp branch circuit. Of course, you could do far worse by plugging in a < 15 amp rated power strip into the receptacle, and even worse by _”daisy chaining”_ two or more of them! 😣
@6:50 Electricians may not realize it, or even recognize one, but service conductors do have an "over current protection device". Electricians aren't responsible for them, of course. It's also the power company's means of disconnection from the grid. (bigclive has taken one apart, and popped one in his shed -- there's a small ".22 blank" in there that does all the work. Several lineman channels have shown them as well.) [ goo.gl/maps/CvbcYDmueJfTpTeH6 That's a set of fuses, and a set of lightning arrestors. ]
My home was built in 2005 and has a 200A meter / MLO panel combo ( no main breaker). I’m building an Accessory Dwelling Unit with 100A sub panel. As my existing main panel does not have the space or capacity, my only choice is to upgrade to 400A service that will have a 400A main breaker for the panel of which a 100A breaker would feed the new ADU sub panel. However if there is indeed “overcurrent” protection provided by SoCal Edison utility, this would be a good place to apply the tap rule after the new 400A service is provided to a new 320A meter socket (with dual output lugs) located next to existing main panel after which one would connect to 2 breakers- one 200A breaker to feed my existing main panel and the other 100A breaker to feed the ADU located about 80 ft away from main panel. I was thinking I would need only one 100A breaker to the ADU but since my existing panel does not have a main breaker I believe a 2nd 200A breaker is required. I would like to hear from you guys on how to provide the most cost effective solution and complies with NEC requirements.
@Ryan Jackson so if one 3/0 off of a 200 amp OCPD came to a splitter, and 3 3/0 wires went to 3 200 amp protected devices, there is nothing wrong with that? That was my plan.
@ 6:33 you say there is no such thing as tapping a service conductor. I assure you that it's done quite frequently in my experience as an electrician. 240.21 B (5). Rural homes and agricultural services get there service drop on a pole from the utility. Below the meter, or sometimes within the meter enclosure, there are terminal boxes where each out building (house, barn, shed grain bin) is fed from with no over-current protection until it lands in a panel board *Edit- thank you for all that you do. I appreciate the work that you put in to educate those of us who want to learn more.
A tap conductor can NEVER be a service conductor. It is not possible. There are branch circuit taps and there are feeder taps. A person may create additional sets of service-entrance conductors, but a service conductor tap does not exist. See 240.2.
@@RyanJacksonElectrical first off, awesome vid. thank you. If I understand correctly (and please correct if wrong) you are saying that a TAP conductor defined under the tap rules doesn't exist for service conductors because in reality they do not have short circuit and ground fault protection (possibly overcurrent because most land in a Main box of some sort). therefore you can splice (most THINK "tap" in the mechanical sense not electrical) service conductors but wouldn't fall under feeder or branch circuit tap rules?
Hello Ryan. Another awesome video as always. Why is your subscriber count still so low? Have you considered maybe shaving the top of your head and growing a bushy mustache? 😁😉😜
I thought you said the ampacity of the tap conductor isn’t less than 1/10 of the rating of the upstream OCPD and in the story of your friend you said you tapped a 10 AWG to a 30 amp disconnect off the 200 amp breaker. so you weren’t complying with that rule then. 200/10= 20 Amp… 200/6.6= 30.30 Amps.. so you are under the 1/10 ampacity rule.
Why is the "free air" conductor table not used for many of these inner-panel conductors not used? Seems to always be the conductors in raceways, etc.. Many of these conductors are in "free air". E.g. Control panel interconnections between disconnect, fuses and overloads. I consider those "free-air" conductors. Is that incorrect?
@@RyanJacksonElectrical I think you can use them when the conductors are really in 'free-air'...very typical in wiring between taps, contactors and overloads in a motor control panel. They're in 'free-air' in those circumstances just because it makes no sense to put in raceways. They're simply a pig's tail that goes from one device to another.
I get what your saying now. But its not always just the wires smacking each other together there can be nicked wire causing more amp draw on a wire. Or other
Развлечения
I'm a second year student in the IEC and I had no idea what a tap was let alone the rules. I asked my instructor and he didn't explain 90% of what you did. I've spent all week trying to comprehend and learn taps and you explained it so well you taught me everything I need to know in 28 minutes. Thank you!
same
Yeah the IEC is a joke….. we all agree
The rv receptacle was a great example, thanks Ryan🤙
Instablaster...
This is a must see video for anyone in the electrical trade.
Hello Ryan. Journeyman from Texas here. Really enjoy your videos. With your explanations and showing examples in photos really stays with me and not boring at all. It’s really so great that you’re sharing your electrical knowledge and experiences with us all. God bless.
Thanks Armando!
Same here!! It is a blessing to have this opportunity. Great job composing and speaking the subject. 👏✊🏼
Finally a video that clearly explains 240.21... Thanks!
This is one of the best explanations. I am so glad I found your channel.
You explained it very well i have to admit. The way you explain things just sticks i actually retain the information. Thanks.
Ryan, your videos are fantastic. Actual technical info and learning on RUclips. Thank you.
Thanks!
Well thank you for that. I kept reading the tap rule and other writings about it and was drawing the correct conclusions, but TOTALLY overthinking it and second guessing it. Your real world explanations and explanations of the "why" cleared it up in my mind.
Love the videos! Helping me alot! Thank you! Please keep them coming !
Great video on tap rules, thanks Ryan. You're the real deal
Excellent. Clear, well referenced, and useful.
Ryan, thank you for this video. The way you teach makes it easy to understand. Great work 🤙🏻
insane amount of detail and clearly described. thanks for this
First time watching, the man is razor sharp, insightful, and can translate the Code into a language that I could really digest. Thank you.
Thanks for the excellent video. I work in solar PV installations and we often create a back-fed connection to feeders using Insulated Piercing Connectors (IPC). Although this is a supply connection and not a load connection, we refer to these as "taps" and follow the tap rules for conductor sizing and protection. A typical situation is using an IPC to connect a #6 CU PV output circuit coming from a fused disconnect (60A) to a 4/0 AL feeder that runs from the outside service disconnect to the main breaker of a 200A service panel. We had one inspector tell us that in addition to our PV supply conductor, the portion of the feeder between our "tap" connection and the service panel is considered a "tap" conductor and must comply with tap rules for sizing, length and protection. This becomes an issue when that feeder is SER cable since the portion between the IPC connection and the service panel is not enclosed in raceway. 240.21(B)(1)(3). Does the inspectors interpretation of what is a "tap conductor" seem correct to you in this case?
Great explanation! Love it. Helped me much better than wading through the code book and staying confused!
Ryan, thanks for the explanation of feeder taps. It was a very helpful topic, keep it up!
Love you Ryan. Nobody can explain it better than this. It is very precise and complete explanation.
I recommend this video to everyone in the electrical trade! Great Job you explained it so good
I know I'm hooked on learning about electrical stuff cause I keep watching.
This is an excellent explanation. Thanks a lot🎉
Great video and like I've said in the electrical code discussion group and your videos. Upgrading your microphone game will take your videos to a whole new level.
Keep on keeping on
Great stuff Ryan….as usual. Thanks!
Nice job. This helped to clear up the application of a tap. A rule that makes motor installation very clear. Thanks much 🙏
The only other person that has come close to explaining tap conductors is Jim Pauley of Square D.
You're a great teacher! I'm a software engineer who's looking into what a feeder tap is for planned DIY solar + whole house backup hybrid inverter + batteries installation (of course I'll permit it first and inspect before turning on) and your explanation is very clear. Thank you.
Good teacher and sounds academically
Thanks Ryan, good stuff!
Nice story about your friend's 30 amp RV situation and remembering to use the tap rule to your advantage because feeder taps are mainly used in large commercial and industrial settings.
Finally i understood tap rules. Thanks a lot.
Great video!!
Great teaching !!!
Great information. Thank you.
awesome video...thank you
Awesome video .... !!!
Thank you again for another great video. I'm only left with two question at this point.
When using the outside tap rules, I am assuming that direct burial is considered protecting the wire from physical damages when applying all the rules for direct burial. Am I right? I'm asking because the others ones mention using a raceway but this one does not.
Also do you provide an online ce course?
Thank you for breaking this down Barney style. Yes, this is a very confusing section of the NEC, just below calculating transformer inductance for service entrance equipment (difficult for me)
I look forward to more videos. This is actually a bit better than Mike Holt in some ways. Why? What we see in the field, in the wild, does not always look like what is in the book.
You said voodoo!!
Love it.... That's my go-to phrase!
Very very good ! I just subscribed thank you
Very important to note is that section 240.21(B) covers feeders. A feeder is a conductor feeding a panel, or sub-panel from the main service equipment. The 30 amp circuit is a branch circuit and the feeder tap rules do not apply to branch circuits.
A 30A feeder is very common. A 30A circuit supplying a 30A fused disconnect is a feeder.
Great vid!
Great video! Would you please help understand if I use tap conductors with the same size of an upstream feeder tap cable? Could it be tapped to the load side of a bus protected by a main breaker or does 240.21 applies only to cable/cable taps?
Surge suppressors are also strange critters. They *normally* have no load, yet they’re rated for 100 *KILOamps,* for example. It’s only going to conduct that for a number of *microseconds,* so there’s *normally* no problem. The problem is that some of the circuitry may *fail SHORTED* after a large surge, so they do need protection.
Plus, I guess that _Available Fault Current_ goes out the window, since the surge current from a direct/indirect lightning strike doesn’t conform to the _AFC_ calculations.
Great video
This was a great lesson! Love it. \
Ryan
Great explanation thanks. But my question is what about the neutrals. We're doing a lot of tapping off of main panels in the solar industry today and one of the issues that comes up is, when tapping the line side of the panel, is it required to tap the neutral or can you land the neutral on the bus bar? I can't find that code and inspectors treat it differently. So I've been told. I'd like to figure that one out. Thank you
Very good,,,,
Great Video!! Well done explaining all the details along with quick examples as you explain. This is a good way for viewers to confirm that what you are explaining is being understood correctly. One question, if you read this, can you explain the reference in the video where you were sizing a conductor for the 112 amp load and you mentioned " since its over 100 amps" and you used the 75 deg. column. Is this in reference to 110.14 ? What is this saying exactly. Thanks !!
Ryan Jackson for President!
Awesome vid thanks
Love this video. The high current did not turn the brown insulation to black, that was done by heat caused by the over current
Awesome 👌
Are Ryan's first two explanations (10' tap rule & 25' tap rule) also applicable to a 900v DC battery circuit? 240.21 seems agnostic about that but does another section of the NEC disallow it? Thanks in advance, generous RUclips teachers~
Hello Ryan can you clarify in Solar line side tap. Do the neutral and ground get bonded in the fuse box because it is considered a first mean of disconnect? There seems a lot of confusion on the topic. Thank you for the great videos
Good video thank you
Thanks mate!
How to find the breaker? Short circuit! Then just look for the tripped breaker. Unless you have a faulty breaker and it just holds until the main circuit breaker pops!
Hello Ryan, great videos, I have a question on the tap cans that are on the service side, does the tap rules apply to them? Let’s say there’s a utility transformer feeding a tap can, from the tap can there’s a 2000 amp switch gear and 5 -600amp main breaker disconnects. Does the tap rules apply to my conductors after the tap can?
There is no such thing as tap conductors on the line side of a service. What you describe is multiple sets of service entrance conductors.
Thanks Ryan. I absolutely Can tap a #8 wire to a 100 amp feeder in a meter bank to feed a 50amp sub panel considering the distance of 10 feet right? Thank you for your videos.
Ryan, Concerning the Feeder Tap Rule 240.21 (B) (1)
Just because it's code, does that make it right !
As a licensed NJ Home Inspector I find myself in a very gray area because we need to report our findings to our client.
Home Inspectors are not allowed to quote any codes, and are taught that feeder taps need to be called out.
Any wiring exiting the panel needs to be fused despite what the codes say.
Also, Solar connections which back-feed the panel that are tapped into the feeders should be called out as well.
As A NJ Licensed home inspector, I routinely call out this. If a fire starts because of the unfused wiring, I do not want to find myself in front of a jury.
Why would you think a feeder tap is dangerous? If I was the seller I would be furious that you are telling a buyer something about my property that is 100 percent false.
Maybe I didn't explain so good, sorry ! In the home inspection world, you need to report on what you see. When the solar installation is Back-feeding the panel by way of the 10ft rule, those particular wires are in the house and are non-fused, and in the inspection world, no protection means a possible hazard. I have been trying to find out when revisions were made to 240.21 to allow this. The correct way to back-feed a panel using solar is quite clear, the wiring must feed the panel through a breaker installed the farthest away from the main breaker, but if the electrician who is working with the solar company encounters a full panel, they simply use the 10ft rule and use pinch connectors to connect the wires into the main feeders. As in inspector I do not know if this in correct, & by not informing the client, I assume the liability. I do not care about the seller's feelings. Again... If a fire starts due to those particular wires and I did not inform the client prior, I will find myself held liable. Just because it's code, does that make it right !
By the way, when did they revise the code to allow this ? @@RyanJacksonElectrical
does that mean one could supply three 100 amp panels from a 200 amp fused disconnect such as a firemans disconnect by tapping at the bottom of the disconnect?
your teaching style is great! you explain info very well. do you have courses?
20:42 a lot of pool contractors do what you did for your friend. I’ve also seen them “tap” to the load side of the meter, before any OCPD. I didn’t know how that was allowed, and if I’m understanding you correctly, it is NOT 😂
So for the example at 7:30 , if the 1/0 feeder was wired to a terminal block with TWO 1/0 wires coming off the block (instead of 8awg) each of those 1/0 wires would still be feeders and not feeder taps correct?
I had a question about the raceway. Does that mean you couldn't start the tap in the breaker panel you would have to put a wire way/ trough in to make the taps?
At 16:20, I believe you have the temperature ratings reversed. 6 gauge has a rating of 55 amps at 60˚C. And 8 gauge has a rating of 50 amps at 75˚C.
Yeah, I just don't know how to edit the video. Thank you!
@@RyanJacksonElectrical Ok no problem.
My last education was 2011. I’m trying to re-educate myself. I saw the ratings and was very confused. Thank your for the clarification in the comment. This video is awesome!!!
Thank you sir😊
Hi Ryan. Excellent video. What's the name for the terminal strip shown at 7:34? Does it have a special name?
It's called a power distribution block.
Just had to feed a transfer switch for an 80kw generator and thus a a 150a 480v generator sub panel, from a 400a main panel, for which there are no 200a breakers available, tapped directly off the end of the buzz with 3/0 copper directly to 200a fused disconnect.
What is the difference between sizing feeders and service wires using NEC 310.15(B)(7) and 310.15(B)(16)?
Hi Ryan,
Can a Busbar or a Flexbar that does not adhere to any of the Article 240.21, 215.3, 230 or 240.1 be regarded as "Tap Conductor".
Or this term "Tap Conductor" is exclusively reserved for Wired Conductor?
What I understand is that even a Busbar or Flexbar can be regarded as Tapped conductor. Please provide your feedback.
hi, if i'm tapping to a fire pump and jockey pump, do i still need to put a disconnecting means after the tap? if yes, do i have to size the disconnecting means for the fire pump as per locked rotor current? thanks
The only thing was a little confused on is can you still have ground fault protection From a breaker that isn’t a GFCI breaker?
Man really good job r
what happens with feeder and tap rules with solar/batteries, in other words you have two sources of supply? say i have a utility power flowing thru a tesla 200 amp gateway, two 200 amp load panels with 200 amp main breaker, and a 400 amp generation panel with 8x tesla powerwall 2+'s (8*7kW=56kW batteries), and 20 kW of solar. so 76kW, or 320 amps of generation in the 400 amp panel. Would the feeder need to be 600 amps (or a 600 amp 4 way terminal block) and would this be compliant??
@6:00 The end of a conductor insulation changing colors. I would say it's a bad connection. I have seen loose connections on neutral bars and breakers, where the insulation was crispy and flaking off for a few inches, and the conductor was a different color, just because the screw wasn't tightened. I just snip off the bad section extend the wire and terminate it properly.
This was one of several that looked like this. It was a substantially overloaded transformer.
@@RyanJacksonElectrical I knew I was wrong while I was typing.
@@--JohnDoe Ha ha, we've all been there. Me more than most.
Ryan, how long can the feeder be before the tap happens?
There is no requirement.
@26:50 Not likely, but "it's all outside" so there should be no house to burn down, right? (having had excessively long runs on a farm... 1000ft of copper is a pretty big heatsink.) Anyone with a 1000' spool of 14/2 wanna run an experiment? [Edit: At 1000', that should be about 25A, or 3kW to be dissipated over 2000' of copper (14awg)]
Hi Ryan, I realize this video is a little old, but I have question about 240.21(B)5 Outdoor Taps of Unlimited Length - I understand its the "Wild West" with the unlimited length with the tap conductors. My question is, do the outdoor taps still have to be 1/3 of the feeder (over 25ft.) they are being taped from?
No.
Ryan, what brand are the taps shown in your video?
I'm not sure, sorry.
For the outside unlimited length, what if the tap conductors run 150ft through a building then 100ft outside to the load, does that apply?
No.
@@RyanJacksonElectrical Thought so. But it's temp so will be lefted as is.
Hey Ryan i have a question, if you see this i would love to be answered! can you tap a feeder, at any length, so long as you keep the wire size the same as the originating OCD? Example is feeding one MLO panel with a few 20's and a 30 amp breakers in it, tapping onto said feeder via a double lug on said panel, then going 150 feet away, with the same gauge wire, to feed another panel of the same set up. feeder is 100amp wire on a 100 breaker. ???? hope this makes sense. ive never heard of tapping a feeder like it was a branch circuit conductor basically, so it sparked my interest. and although it sparked my feelers, now that i think of it, all three aspects of GF OC and OV are all met throughout, so im just wondering if thats legit? hope this makes sense lol, im sure it doesnt, but id appreciate some input! i can email you a diagram if you are willing to help me brain think gooder! The only thing that i think is violated, is they do not terminate at a breaker or fuse, and have no disconnecting means other than the main breaker that is 100's of feet away, thats what im pretty sure makes this not kosher
That's fine. It would not be a tap though.
@@RyanJacksonElectrical Thank you so much, i really appreciate you responding!!!
Hey Ryan to find the rating for the conductor where can I find that ?
The NEC. Table 310.16
An even weirder situation that I have had a hard time wrapping my mind around is using 15 amp receptacles on a 20 amp branch circuit. Of course, you could do far worse by plugging in a < 15 amp rated power strip into the receptacle, and even worse by _”daisy chaining”_ two or more of them! 😣
A 15A receptacle is rated 20A feed through, so it's a non-issue.
@6:50 Electricians may not realize it, or even recognize one, but service conductors do have an "over current protection device". Electricians aren't responsible for them, of course. It's also the power company's means of disconnection from the grid. (bigclive has taken one apart, and popped one in his shed -- there's a small ".22 blank" in there that does all the work. Several lineman channels have shown them as well.)
[ goo.gl/maps/CvbcYDmueJfTpTeH6 That's a set of fuses, and a set of lightning arrestors. ]
My home was built in 2005 and has a 200A meter / MLO panel combo ( no main breaker). I’m building an Accessory Dwelling Unit with 100A sub panel. As my existing main panel does not have the space or capacity, my only choice is to upgrade to 400A service that will have a 400A main breaker for the panel of which a 100A breaker would feed the new ADU sub panel. However if there is indeed “overcurrent” protection provided by SoCal Edison utility, this would be a good place to apply the tap rule after the new 400A service is provided to a new 320A meter socket (with dual output lugs) located next to existing main panel after which one would connect to 2 breakers- one 200A breaker to feed my existing main panel and the other 100A breaker to feed the ADU located about 80 ft away from main panel. I was thinking I would need only one 100A breaker to the ADU but since my existing panel does not have a main breaker I believe a 2nd 200A breaker is required.
I would like to hear from you guys on how to provide the most cost effective solution and complies with NEC requirements.
Ryan hit me in the face with knowledge like’ Bammm”
This is brain food 🥘 “
U give the full circle ⭕️”
LOL Thanks!
Can a 200 amp breaker feeder have multiple 200 amp breaker protected taps using 3/0 copper?
Sure, but since 3/0 is rated for 200A they wouldn't really be tap conductors.
@Ryan Jackson so if one 3/0 off of a 200 amp OCPD came to a splitter, and 3 3/0 wires went to 3 200 amp protected devices, there is nothing wrong with that? That was my plan.
@@the74impala correct, that's fine. Assuming the breaker can carry the load, of course.
I’m currently in school now and all I can say is “ I’ve learned more from RUclips the I did with you” oh hi Jacob
Thanks!
How about a egc for a 1600 (5 sets of 600 mcm) amp parallel tap off a 3000 amp bus duct?
Table 250.122, based on whatever the upstream (3,000A?) device is.
@@RyanJacksonElectrical
The egc for my tap conductors are based on my upstream device?
@@mechelb4158 Yes.
@@RyanJacksonElectrical if I may ask where in code I can find that rule,
To show others
@@mechelb4158 250.122(G).
@ 6:33 you say there is no such thing as tapping a service conductor. I assure you that it's done quite frequently in my experience as an electrician. 240.21 B (5).
Rural homes and agricultural services get there service drop on a pole from the utility. Below the meter, or sometimes within the meter enclosure, there are terminal boxes where each out building (house, barn, shed grain bin) is fed from with no over-current protection until it lands in a panel board
*Edit- thank you for all that you do. I appreciate the work that you put in to educate those of us who want to learn more.
A tap conductor can NEVER be a service conductor. It is not possible. There are branch circuit taps and there are feeder taps. A person may create additional sets of service-entrance conductors, but a service conductor tap does not exist. See 240.2.
What you describe is addressed in 230.40, NOT 240.21.
I was thinking similarly. Power companies tend to play a different game. (NFPA is more than just "70" )
@@RyanJacksonElectrical first off, awesome vid. thank you. If I understand correctly (and please correct if wrong) you are saying that a TAP conductor defined under the tap rules doesn't exist for service conductors because in reality they do not have short circuit and ground fault protection (possibly overcurrent because most land in a Main box of some sort). therefore you can splice (most THINK "tap" in the mechanical sense not electrical) service conductors but wouldn't fall under feeder or branch circuit tap rules?
@@claytonsprague7316 That is 100 percent correct.
Hello Ryan. Another awesome video as always. Why is your subscriber count still so low? Have you considered maybe shaving the top of your head and growing a bushy mustache? 😁😉😜
I had a superb reply to this, but I think I need to keep my account "suitable for all ages and audiences." :D
I thought you said the ampacity of the tap conductor isn’t less than 1/10 of the rating of the upstream OCPD and in the story of your friend you said you tapped a 10 AWG to a 30 amp disconnect off the 200 amp breaker. so you weren’t complying with that rule then. 200/10= 20 Amp… 200/6.6= 30.30 Amps.. so you are under the 1/10 ampacity rule.
30A is more than 1/10 of 200A...
Since when is a 14 gauge wire in that environment not good for 20
Since 2011.
Why is the "free air" conductor table not used for many of these inner-panel conductors not used? Seems to always be the conductors in raceways, etc.. Many of these conductors are in "free air". E.g. Control panel interconnections between disconnect, fuses and overloads. I consider those "free-air" conductors. Is that incorrect?
Very seldom can you use the free air tables. It's typically only for overhead conductors and cable trays.
@@RyanJacksonElectrical I think you can use them when the conductors are really in 'free-air'...very typical in wiring between taps, contactors and overloads in a motor control panel. They're in 'free-air' in those circumstances just because it makes no sense to put in raceways. They're simply a pig's tail that goes from one device to another.
I get what your saying now. But its not always just the wires smacking each other together there can be nicked wire causing more amp draw on a wire. Or other
There are overloads, ground faults, and short circuits. See the definition of "overcurrent."
This is the clearest explanation of the tap rules I've ever heard. Thank you.