Not Just for Revolvers: The Low Thumb Grip - Gun Guys Ep. 42 with Massad Ayoob and Bill Wilson
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- Опубликовано: 2 сен 2021
- As anybody who has shot a lot of wheelguns can tell you, training the low thumb grip is a virtual necessity to prevent injury and maintain control of the gun, but there are a lot of practical reasons to carry that technique over into shooting semi-autos. In this episode, Bill and Mas talk about the physiology and functionality of the low thumb grip when it comes to weapon retention, recoil stability, and other advantages.
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ABOUT MASSAD AYOOB:
Massad Ayoob has been handgun editor of GUNS magazine and law enforcement columnist for AMERICAN HANDGUNNER since the 1970s, and has published thousands of articles in gun magazines, martial arts publications, and law enforcement journals. He is the author of some twenty books on firearms, self-defense, and related topics, including “In the Gravest Extreme” and “Deadly Force,” widely considered to be authoritative texts on the topic of the use of lethal force.
The winner of the Outstanding American Handgunner of the Year Award in 1998, Mas has won several state and regional handgun shooting championships. Ayoob was the first person to earn the title of Five Gun Master in the International Defensive Pistol Association. He is the current President of the Second Amendment Foundation. He served 19 years as chair of the Firearms Committee of the American Society of Law Enforcement Trainers, and several years as a member of the Advisory Board of the International Law Enforcement Educators and Trainers Association. In addition to teaching for those groups, he has also taught
for the International Association of Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors and the International Homicide Investigators seminars.
Mas has received judicial recognition as an expert witness for the courts in weapons and shooting cases since 1979, and served as a fully sworn and empowered, part time police officer for 43 years, mostly at supervisor rank. Ayoob founded the Lethal Force Institute in 1981 and served as its director until 2009, and now trains through Massad Ayoob Group. He has
appeared on CLE-TV delivering continuing legal education for attorneys, through the American Law Institute and American Bar Association, and has been retained to train attorneys to handle deadly force cases through the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network. Ayoob served for two
years as co-vice chair of the Forensic Evidence Committee of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers. He also appeared in each episode of Personal Defense TV (Sportsman’s Channel).
ABOUT BILL WILSON
Bill Wilson has always been infatuated with guns. Originally trained as a watchmaker, he has been in the firearms industry since 1974, starting out with a retail store called Sportsman's Headquarters in Berryville, Arkansas. Since that humble beginning, he has built Wilson Combat into the largest and most successful custom firearms company in America. Since 1977 Wilson Combat has been the leading innovator in high-performance, custom 1911 handguns, tactical long guns and accessories.
A Wilson Combat product’s unmatched level of exceptional reliability and peerless craftsmanship is only equaled by our legendary customer service. Wilson Combat is proud to service all levels of local and State law enforcement including The Department of Homeland Security, US Border Patrol, HQ SOCOM, US Marshal's Service, US Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard, Diplomatic Security Service, Texas Rangers and many more elite law enforcement and military units worldwide. We are also pleased to support the needs of thousands of law-abiding private citizens in the United States and in many other countries abroad. 
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This is what we need. Our elders stepping up and explaining clearly why, sometimes, the old way and the old wisdom is still the best way.
Thanks guys! Great stuff.
The "thumbs down" hold is the only universal hold I can use effectively with all of my handguns no matter the design. Maybe it's because I grew up shooting big bore revolvers but I find this technique allows me to accurately shoot everything I own without having to relearn a gun-specific grip.
Same here.
@@tonynicholson2697 yes
Now I wanna go to the range to test this out. I shoot both semi-auto and wheel gun, so it’d be great to have one hold to not even think about than having to switch thumb positions like I playing thumb war with whatever gun I’m holding 👍
Same here 👍.
You've got that right Richard!
I grew up using a thumbs down grip, shooting mainly revolvers bac in the day. The instructors tried to change that shooting a Glock in basic firearms training, but eventually gave up and told me to keep shooting the way I was used to.
i switched to the thumbs down locking position and gave me better control of pistol, imporved mu accuracy and now i have one grip for rovolver and semi auto that works extremely well... thanks for the video.
Thank you for the informative video. After 30 years of law enforcement, it is always interesting, and sometimes comical on how the "latest and greatest" new tactic and lesson is mandated into training. This is a prime example of how there are different methods in achieving the same goal and the emphasis needs to be kept on "what works for you and why". Thanks again and keep up the great lessons.
There is an enormous amount of knowledge and experience in these two men, and selflessly sharing their knowledge with the rest of the 'pro gun' community! Thank you gentlemen for all you do! I can tell that firearm safety is your top priority. A lot of people will learn and benefit from you.
Bill explains it so well: the Old School grip has worked so well for me since I learned to shoot a handgun and it's still working well today. No need to change my grip.
Thank you, fellows, for this GREAT advice. I’ll add one more common sense reason that is especially applicable to we long-term - and getting considerable older - shooters: a low thumb grip can help to compensate for increasing hand weakness and issues like arthritis.
As a young man I learned thumb down. Then in my 30s I switched to thumb strait as that was what most instructors I saw were teaching. Now I have switched back and have noticed less fatigue and less arthritis pain after time at the range. Almost gave up my big bores and switched to .380. But with switching back to thumb down hopefully can get another couple years carrying and shooting reliably stopping calibers.
I grew up with revolvers. It has felt comfortable, now my hands are weaker...
Amen brother!
Very clear and 100% correct. Thank you.
Always wondered why Bill Wilson used a low thumb grip. All makes sense. Really helpful for less strong shooters that need to use their limited grip strength effectively.
An instructor taught me this back in the late 90s. I’ve tried other grips, but this one is the best for me and I can use it on any pistol.
I'm a veteran pinshooter with a modicum of insight into grip mechanics. I had hereto fore only the used the low thumb grip on revolvers.I went to the range today intent on trying that grip on my ShieldPlus. Gripping the gun in that manner for some dry fire warmup, the grip felt extremely odd and uncomfortable. I felt as if I barely had any purchase. Low expectations immediately followed. Still, I pressed on and fired 5 rounds on target at 7 yards. Lo and behold, I had shot a 1 1/2" group with 4 rounds in one 1/2" hole. Subsequent 5 round string produced similar results. So much for the "it doesn't feel right" objection. Thanks, guys.
Low thumb 1911 makes it easier to quickly engage the manual safety when needed.
Always willing to hear some words of wisdom from Massad!
I could never get my head around this "stick your thumbs straight forward and stack them almost on the slide release" style of shooting, so I feel vindicated in seeing cracks appearing in its foundation at long last.
Same here.If it ain’t broke don’t fix it :)
Tell me you don’t shoot without telling me you don’t shoot
If you use both hands with thumbs down, the thumb of the shooting hand is in the way of the support hand, resulting in less contact surface that would be available. Thumb down one handed makes a lot of sense while some might prefer to ride the thumb safety depending on the handgun. If the slidestop gets in the way highly depends on the specific gun and your hands.
@@onpsxmember im new to shooting pistols and my thumbs down grip makes me infinitely more accurate then using thumbs forward. everyone is telling me im doing it wrong but how come i can hit my target almost everytime.
@@vexxy0ps689
You have a sample size of one, anecdotal evidence. It's not wrong. It can work well with your hands and handgun or definitely with revolvers. it's not that you could get the same or better results with the thumbs forward grip, it may be that you haven't invested the same time into it. Search for "deep dive into the thumbs forward grip". Anything you give a chance to see if it helps you has to be tried and slightly adjusted maybe over several months. It's similar to those that are used to iron sights and they're damn good with them. They're reluctant to try red dot sights cause at first they suck and over there is what they know and are good at. It may take 6 months to a year to reap the benefits. Some realize the positive effects their long red dot session had on their iron sights shooting, maybe even breaking a plateau and then jump in with both feet. Try the video "deep dive into the thumbs forward grip". Btw...it could be that if you get a different gun in the future, it may lend itself more to it based on size. I mean if you shoot a micro 9 and your thumb would stick in front of the muzzle it's less than helpful.
Thank you gentlemen for a practical reality based look at gripping a pistol.
Low thumb works for me as well. I’m teaching my young son this grip technique. I share this video with him.
Great stuff. As an old revolver guy I use and teach low thumbs as an ootion as well. I have had to modify students grip to the low thumb (revolver grip) with the M&P EZ Since the grip safety pins at the bottom its less forgiving if one doesn't have a full grip. Low thumbs guarentees that.
Especially with the seniors that have weakened grip strength.
Wow; Mr Ayoob, I have been reading your information since I was a teenager, as a police officer in Miami, and now , as a 62 year old retired LEO; you never cease to amaze me with super important techniques and information? I thank you from
The bottom of my heart; aside from
Sheer luck, I know your teaching has kept me alive? Thank you ; Donn
I love the "dinosaur show" Thanks for the lessons fellas!
When I started shooting thumbs foward my slide was failing to lock back on the empty magazine. Also I started getting short stroke malfunctions. I went back to thumbs down and never had anymore issues.
I started using thumb down to tighten up my groups. What a big difference it made in accuracy!
I’ve been shooting handguns for more than 20 years and am always learning something new. Today is one of those days. We are blessed that these two gentleman are sharing this knowledge with the shooting community. Thanks for the video 👍😎
All great points. I've seen this taught before, especially for single hand grip. But this is also taught in most striking techniques. You get a rock hard fist when you bring the thumb down, and you strike out like cracking a whip, and then squeeze your fist into that grip as the strike is landing both to protect the hand and to apply a solid strike.
Always very clear and professional.
I started shooting revolvers over 55 years ago (Colt Python), my grip was thumb down. My trainer was ex Army Special Forces, a damn fine marksman! All pistols we shot were with the thumb down, I never had the desire to change that (don't fix what's not broken). I am fairly sure that the reason I can shoot magnum handguns with minimal problems with recoil is because of that strong thumb position and good training habits that stuck with me for a lifetime (practice, practice, practice!!).
*Best defensive hold.*
*Thanks for the reminder.*
*Practice makes perfect.*
Not really…
But okay
@@PewPewNomNom
*Maybe you can make a video, showing us a better "Defensive Pistol Hold. (?)*
*Or link to one already demonstrating it.*
I opened the video out of pure curiosity and got completely glued to the screen. Very good, very very good.
I always used the low thumb grip because I came from the revolver. When I bought my first semi-auto back in 2008 and took my first defensive handgun class, I was immediately catechize for my grip. The trainers had me change to the straight thumb grip. This is what I use today, unless I'm shooting a revolver. But I do like the low thumb grip, as pointed out by Mas, for it's grip strength.
This was clearly helpful the first time I tried it. A truly great presentation. The piece was a glock 26, but I will try this with everything. Thank you.
Wow! I literally had no idea the gain in grip strength using this method. Learned something new today. Life is good.
My experience and reasons are the same as Bill’s and it’s always worked well for me whether revolver or semiauto. Great, well reasoned inputs from Mas as well.
Excellent video, thank you.
Heard mention of this grip style before and now i fully understand its origin
Excellent information!
10:45 and on is must know. I just bought a Chiappa snub nose!!
Excellent video! I'm retired now, but as a former state certified police firearms master Instructor, I have always taught the "thumbs down" method. We never taught the popular "thumbs forward" method because it causes so many shooter-induced malfunctions. People seem to forget (or not know) the most basic rule of shooting any semi-auto pistol -- "Keep all fingers off of and away from the external controls and the slide." The Army's very first training manual for the 1911 even spoke of this. But, I suppose it all comes down to personal preference.
Always love listening to Massad Ayoob
Awesome, thank you gentlemen! Simple, straight forward, practical knowledge, that might actually save your life!
Started with thumb down swinging a hammer when i was a kid (lol grandfather had a bench we would drive nails into to keep us busy) just carried that over to my revolver shooting and then semi auto's. Bow's three finger grip thumb down, hammers, ratchets,driving, and even throwing punches. And now after 40+ years of use...i also use it with my canes.
Bingo! Same for me.
Thank you for this discussion. I've always found the thumb forward grip a little awkward, but that was what all the cool kids were doing. I'm going to have to reconsider my grip the next time I hit the range. Thanks again!
Bringing the thumb over the fingers in this way is also how to make a very strong fist in most martial arts. 👍🏻
I'm a low thumb guy and always have been. Trying the other methods in the past just didn't feel comfortable and I felt as if I had much less grip on the gun. I now shoot Wild Bunch traditional and it is paying off using that low thumb.
Low thumb all my life.
Easy to teach, easy (and safe) to learn, and
easy to remember: Thumb print (weak hand) over thumb nail (strong hand)!
great video .thats the way i grip a pistol and it totally works for me.ive been shooting for over 40 years that way,thank you guys
Great points. I found that after carrying a 1911 in law enforcement for over 4 decades, once people started talking about using the high thumb to help control recoil and make sure a thumb didn't accidentally knock the grip safety off, I couldn't adequately dis-engage the grip safety, as Mas points out. I was told to get the grip safety sensitized. However, sticking with my old low thumb grip, if your squeezing the grip, the thumb doesn't accidentally engage the thumb safety. Watching an Army training film on the 1911, the low thumb grips is taught. I guess things come full circle.
11:50, exactly. I been using thumb down for a long time and it's difficult to explain to people that I can wrap my support thumb down also on my 686, but a little snubby, then my thumb goes a tad higher and support thumb rests on top, unless i'm shooting fast in which case with the snub my support thumb becomes thumbs high.
Seeing one of the few youtubers I watch comment makes this even better
Love your wheel gun work
Again. These Wilson videos are fantastic.
It's good to see that there are still some who understand that there is more than one way to skin a cat, and that there really is no one size fits all. I can't count the number of times when well meaning folks have told me that my grip is wrong, and tried to fix it. Just like Bill I was shooting revolvers (still carry one often too) long before I even touched a semi-auto handgun. I hit what I shoot at with my low thumb grip, and the new all the rage thumbs forward grip is uncomfortable for me, due to an old wrist injury.
These two men always manage to make me think and many times rethink things. Good stuff gentlemen.
Informative, timely video by the incomparable Massad Ayoob (and Bill Wilson of course.)
As a petite female shooter with very small hands I've had difficulty with my strong hand's thumb joint hurting trying to manage recoil when shooting pistols with a wider grip. Arthritis affects my finger strength as well.
I was taught the thumbs straight, pointing towards the target grip. Can't wait to try this at the range.
Thanks guys, I've not seen it demonstrated like this before. Super job.
I started shooting a revolver first/low thumb and when I started shooting autos I kept the same grip for years.Later when I started USPSA and IDPA shooting I switched to thumbs forward and still do. I don’t know anyone who shoots revolver thumbs forward as it’s not a natural way to grip one.
Thank you for informing people about the thumbs down hold ! I have been a certified instructor for over 20 years . Revolvers require a stronger grip ( thumbs down ! ) . Thumbs down gives you a stronger grip on semi autos as well . But , also you need to keep your hands away from moving parts like the slide . Keep up the good work !
All of my handgun training in USMC was thumb down. Just felt natural to me.
I, too, learned with revolvers and, even shooting M29 Smiths, shot one handed. The thumb down grip is natural for me. In my practices, I did find issues with secure one hand holds with the thumb anywhere but down - especially with bulky lightweight polymer guns.
Long story short - enjoyed your video!
Thank you for explaining in detail about the position of the thumb and how much of a difference it makes . I started on a wheel gun that later use a semiautomatic. You make easily to understand like you do on your other videos . Thank you
It’s always good,to examine your techniques and habits. 👍
Thank you gentlemen for your very informative instructions. A lot of people can learn good weapon handling skills listening to you. I always listen carefully to your messages & enjoy your straight forward demonstrations.
Man! There is so much knowledge and experience in these 2 heads it's astounding. Literally everything said makes perfect sense and I wouldn't comment until testing for myself. it works. Now that I've been working on the "2 thumbs straight" grip for a number of years (I finally got it down!) I'm about to practice with a brand new grip from now on. Now, it I can just get to the range. Thanks guys very much.
Great explanation. I've never thought it through that deep. Gonna try it next range visit.
When I took my CPL training (finally), on the range the instructor approached me and said "No! You're holding the gun wrong." He showed me how to grip with the thumbs forward technique, even though I was tearing a tight rat-hole group from the center of the target - I was clearly the only experienced shooter there. I've tried to make that more natural, with many hundreds of dry draws, but I think I'm going back.
I had two good reasons to use this grip: 1) I started with a .357, and I like both of my thumbs. 2) It always assured me of not accidentally activating controls or dragging on the slide when I started shooting a 1911 - like Bill showed ( 8:21 ), I wrap my left thumb over the top of the low right thumb. And now I can add the strength advantage, particularly when forced to use only one hand. I know at least with his revolvers, Jerry uses this grip as well.
I get that it leaves a bit of a void under the heel of the heel of the left had, which we would rather be firmly against the left grip panel, which we better achieve with the thumbs forward. But after over 50 years using this grip, in target shooting, leagues and many years of IPSC and 3-gun matches, it's merits outweigh it's drawbacks for me. If they try to "fix" me again at my refresh course, I think I'll tell them to take it up with Massad, Bill and Jerry, 'cause it's good enough for them, and me.
Hondo , if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. I started shooting revolvers back in the 60’s (yep, old guy) and I’ve always used low thumbs. Many instructors tried to “fix” my hold. After many, many rounds down range I’ve got my “low thumbs” hold down pretty pat. 👍🏻
I started shooting revolvers first and the thumbs down grip feels totally natural. I learned thumbs forward for semi autos and have practiced a ton that way, but it still doesn't feel as good as getting both thumbs into the gripping action. I think next time I go to the range that I'll shoot my revolver and my semi auto the same way and see how it works out.
I run a Springfield army XDS 45 ACP thumb down technique works for me and now I know why. Thanks for the information and God bless Y'all 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
Thank you for taking the time to make these videos. A wealth of information, well spoken and excellent points. Much appreciated.
I have always used the 'thumb down' grip. For over 40 years it's never been a problem for me.
My Dad taught me to shoot starting with revolvers and we always shot low thumb. All these years later, I've tried high thumb, etc, but it never felt right. Now I know why; it wasn't!
I used to shoot thumbs down until the internet experts taught me that, thumbs down and "teacup" are the worst ways you can shoot a handgun. Now I shoot thumbs forward; my groups look like they were shot with a shotgun but I can spray the bullets so much quicker now.
Solved my problem of how to grip the pistol. I thought my right thumb was crowding the safety. Now there's plenty of clearance with the thumb down grip. Thanks for the tip!
Love you guys sharing your experience....
As a young pup I would read every article that had your name Mas. Now as a seasoned 53 year old I’m still learning from you. Bill you are just as great and make a fine product. God bless you both.
These are great videos and I really enjoy listening to, learning from and watching them.
Being a relatively new to firearms I have been using the straight thumb meted with my striker fired pistol. Sometimes the slide would not lock back on an empty magazine because my thumb interfered with the slide lock. I have a new Wilson Combat full size ACP model 1911. Again, with straight thumbs I noticed during dry fire practice that sometimes after disengaging the thumb safety that the trigger would still be locked. I figured it was my issue, not the gun. Now I know why. My palm was not activating the grip safety. Not a good thing in an active defense scenario. The extra strength of the thumb down is now obvious. I also find it easier to establish a two handed grip with the strong hand thumb down since you don't have to move the strong hand thumb out of the way and then back into position. I am optimistic about getting good results moving over to this grip style
This is a great discussion, thanks very much. I grew up on revolvers and so I use a revolver grip on semis.
Thank goodness my old fogie incorrect grip is finally validated. Thank you!
Thank you gentlemen! Living legends giving legendary advice!
Great video guys 👍🏼! Thank you!
The knowledge on this channel is amazing
Thanks guys, another great video
Excellent advice. Thank you both
Good stuff as always, plain, simple and real.
Great info as always Mas and Bill!!!
Thanks for the chat and demo.
Great stuff. Thanks again👍
Always great and informative watching Gun Guys keep up the great videos.
Thank you gentlemen.
Thank you. Excellent explanations.
Love to watch you two. Keep up the good work. Very good info. you're giving out...... Thanks.
Learned so much from this video awsome content
Good stuff as always,, thanks.
This is vital. Love you both. Please do more of these to show firearm owners.
Super informative, again !
That will make me think. Thanks for the video.
Thanks for the tip gentlemen.
every couple years someone comes up with the latest and greatest stance or hold. I never found the need to change
Nice discussion, gentlemen. Thank you.
Amazing advice! Thank you guys! 🙏🏽
Awesome demo of the thumb positions. My thumb still hurts from trying them all. “Thumb down” is most certainly excellent for one-handed shooting as well as retention. I have a hard time using it with a two-handed grip, but I’m still working on that.
I cross my support hand thumb over the end of my other thumb, with the support hand fingers wrapped around below the trigger guard. This seems to lock both hands to the pistol.
A lot of wisdom at that table
Thank you! Very instructive and well-presented video!!!
Excellent presentation, I’m convinced.👍👍
I find that when I shoot with a thumbs down grip rather than a high thumb on top of safety lever, my shots more consistently hit Point of Aim.
I thought i was an oddball because of this considering high thumb or flag thumb is very popular these days but if it works for Massad Ayoob and Bill Wilson then by God that is good enough for me too.
Thank you very much for this video! It helps a lot!🤝
Thank goodness someone with common sense finally broke the mold!
Low thumb grip here but it's because of a hand injury long ago and the only way that I can comfortably/effectively grip a handgun.
It works for me.
Thank you so much for this!