Good video, but you mostly left out the topics of selectivity and efficiency. If I didn't know anything about this topic I might come away from this video thinking I should always go for the low Q option. It would be good to give viewers the other side of the trade off conversation.
That's a far point Ryan, thanks for calling it out. When I have been doing these "What the heck" videos it's really targeted towards newer hams who generally are more concerned about SWR and ATUs. My goal has always been to progressively increase topic complexity with each video and refer back to earlier content if / when necessary, I'm sure you saw that in this video. I'll pin this comment to the top so folks have an opportunity to see it and ask questions.
Many decades ago, former coworker was pondering the resonant frequency and "Q" of a pair of those cheap aluminum frame chez lounge chairs that had the plastic supports fabric strips configured as a dipole. Well, the Fr landed dead center of 6-meters with very low "Q" allowing use of entire band. I don't think he ever had a QSO on it. 6m was dead at that time. This video caused me to remember that. Thanks!😂
@@TheSmokinApe I take my extra test this weekend, and I have zero frame of reference for many of the concepts I'm studying. So many of the youtube hams assume their audience is composed of seasoned experts, so I am thankful.
@@TheSmokinApe I am looking for something clear and concise on "feed point impedance", since that topic comes up often enough too. There's really nothing on it out there.
Thanks for clarifying "Q" as to what it means. I have over the years of adding a capacitance hat 👒 to a mobile antenna to improve the Q on that antenna, such a 40 or 80 meter mobile antenna. Ray, W2CH
Now I know that "high Q" just means low bandwith. I never knew what people meant by this because they just say "high Q" like Im supposed to know what that means. Thanks Ape
A high Q antenna is a real selling point when you are in a noisy environment, because it doesn't well receive off-frequency signals or noise. Also, the higher the Q of an antenna the more efficient it is as a radiator. Those are often very important antenna parameters. So any antenna should be designed with that info in mind for whatever your application. It's all about trade-offs, and you can't make the choices you need to make with only half of the information. The 'best' antenna, as far as I'm concerned is one with a very high Q and a really good autotuner that also auto-tracks receive tuning. I don't know of any for sale commercially, but thanks to modern micro-controllers and stepper motors I think I may be able to design one.
There are a number of questions in the Extra Class pool concerning high/low Q and SWR bandwidth. Not explained very well in the study guide in my opinion. Your video is easier to understand. Definitely had to break open the ARRL Handbook and Antenna manual for this topic. 73, W1RKB
Being a primary digital operator, i sit on a single ssb frequency all night sometimes. Using a Magnetic loop antenna is a minor issue. The problem is when the antenna cools and physically and electrically shortens at the same time. best to let them sit outside for awhile if moving from one extreme temp to another.
What a Brilliant vidclip .... Yet Again !!!!! ..... So wished that you 'Lived around the Corner' as you have this Very Rare Talent where one can explain a Complex Subject Simply sothat All can understand it ..... !!!!! IF you were closer I would be knocking on your door Every Day .... :-) :-) :-) Lucky for you .... I am in Christchurch, New Zealand .... I am going to email you with a 'Copy n Paste' of a post that I put up on a Few Sites .... :-) :-) :-) Best to You and Yours and Thanks again for All your Wonderful and Super Informative vidclip .... Cheers from ChCh, NZ .... Keith ZL3KEI
Ohhhhhhhhh! "High Q".....i came here for the poetry.......Haiku. Good stuff Ape! "Hams build antennas, throwing them into tall trees, You are 5-9 here."..lol
Oh my goodness! At three minutes, when you say maths proper! Haha, let me tell you how happy that made me! Hecka! That's how much! Haha♡ you are awesome
Full wave loops are ~200 ohm at the radiation resistance. These are low Q antennas. EFHW is high impedance on the end, but if you analyze the impedance across the hw stretch, the impedance is around 72 ohms in the middle. Now that's a lower Q antenna. The mag loop and the loaded WRCoil vertical are "short" antennas. The radiation resistance on those is very low. Low resistance basically means high Q. Q is XL/R. So we can see easily here that if we use lossy ugly baluns or lossy 1:1 baluns, our lossy R increases and we create a lower Q antenna. ABC. Always Be Chokin' so we can lower our Q and create a more lossy antenna that is lower in Q. Yay loss.
....if I remember my physics correctly, yes, everything you say is true....but only with regards to Q effect on SWR. Q is primarily a ratio of energy stored vs energy lost per cycle. That is to say, something that is high Q requires less energy to maintain resonance compared to something that is low Q. Life (and physics) is a compromise. High Q is good...for energy/resonance; however, has a detrimental effect on bandwidth (which can be important for us radio operators).
Correct and a fair point, I do these videos to help new hams as they enter into the hobby. I did, purposefully, limit the conversation to SWR. Thanks for calling it out and for watching.
Something that I didn’t see is that a High Q antenna is more efficient, better signal. Also I believe that the statement that larger gauge wire will have a lower Q than a thinner wire to be wrong/confusing. Larger wire or element or coil is more efficient and a higher Q. Higher Q antennas have a narrower bandwidth.
I think the word efficient can be used to mean two things here; 1. an antennas ability to be used across a larger area of bandwidth 2. the energy required to use the antenna. What you are saying about energy is correct. It is my understanding that element diameter does play a role, here is an article I found today that may help: www.antentop.org/w4rnl.001/bw.html
@@TheSmokinApe Perhaps a "201" someday could be about how antenna resonance and SWR are two completely different things. Many a new ham sees them as synonymous. This indirectly causes much confusion to things like Q.
@@TheSmokinApe efficient in this case is the amount of signal that actually radiated from the antenna. Non efficient antenna will absorb and dissipate a lot of the signal in the form of heat
the higher the Q, the better tuning fork you have. If your tuning fork produces a tone for quite a while, you have an awesome one. if you have a crappy one, the tone dampens out quickly, and probably took more effort striking it on something to get it to ring. A low q one isnt even worth playing with, cause you wont hear anything. I suppose a bell analogy would work here too. An impedance mismatch is how well, how hard, how delicate you have to strike the thing to make it ring. I suppose a low q unit would be a loudspeaker, since its frequency range is so large its whatever signal you send to it
Hey Jeremy, I like the analogy. IMO which might not be worth anything, it really depends on the operator and what they are trying to accomplish. THanks for the comment!
Q = f_resonant / Bandwidth_of_resonance. Where is the bandwidth measured? In normal resonant systems the width at half the maximum or peak value of the power delivery. Or the -3dB power points. But I haven't thought of it terms of the antenna curves. But it doesn't really matter, it's a qualitative measure. High Q systems are more selective around the resonant frequency (lasers are super high Q systems, for example).
That's pretty much what I showed. Bandwidth of Resonance is the bandwidth below what you determine as "acceptable". in the video I picked 2:1 for simplicity. Thanks for the comment!
When using SDR software with a dongle you got to switch to the Q branch in dieect sampling to go into the HF region..is that the same Q? There is also an "I" branch..whats that for? The opposite to be used in the Ghz range?
This is an over-simplification and hopefully I explain it correctly. The Mag-Loop is essentially a large inductor and it's tuned by using an adjustable variable capacitor to bring the loop into resonance on the desired frequency. An internal tuner, or external for that matter, is a matching unit that matches the impedance between the radio and antenna making the antenna system appear to be 50 ohms to the radio, it technically does not tune the antenna at all. So, that means using the internal tuner doesn't make the Mag-Loop any more or less resonate on a particular frequency.
Hi Ape. Interesting video. Talking about antenna Q is not a particularly useful conversation. The Q calculation fails to differentiate undesirables (loss resistance) with desirables (radiation resistance). So it's rather uninformative. It is better to focus on bandwidth and efficiency. Beware of antennas that widen bandwidth by adding loss and reducing efficiency (like stainless steel wire coils). 73 de w6akb
Good video, but you mostly left out the topics of selectivity and efficiency. If I didn't know anything about this topic I might come away from this video thinking I should always go for the low Q option. It would be good to give viewers the other side of the trade off conversation.
That's a far point Ryan, thanks for calling it out. When I have been doing these "What the heck" videos it's really targeted towards newer hams who generally are more concerned about SWR and ATUs. My goal has always been to progressively increase topic complexity with each video and refer back to earlier content if / when necessary, I'm sure you saw that in this video. I'll pin this comment to the top so folks have an opportunity to see it and ask questions.
I know Im kinda randomly asking but does anybody know a good site to stream newly released series online ?
Q is a difficult concept for many hams, including me and this is a good and practical explanation of the topic. Thank-you.
Thanks Ace, glad you liked it bro 👍
Many decades ago, former coworker was pondering the resonant frequency and "Q" of a pair of those cheap aluminum frame chez lounge chairs that had the plastic supports fabric strips configured as a dipole. Well, the Fr landed dead center of 6-meters with very low "Q" allowing use of entire band. I don't think he ever had a QSO on it. 6m was dead at that time. This video caused me to remember that.
Thanks!😂
@@watthairston1483 that’s a great story 👍
excellent video for a newby! I heard all these terms and had them explained in my study class but never really understood until now. Thanks
Glad it was helpful Charles, thanks for watching 👍
Boy will they correct you, even if they are wrong they will correct you. Thanks for the video.
Thanks for watching Charles 👍
This is the best description I've ever heard on this subject. Just the right level of detail. Thanks!
Thanks Kenneth, glad it was helpful 👍
Another great video Ape. They may as well take away your thumbs down button, and replace it with two thumbs up buttons.
Haha, thanks Jeff, glad you liked the video!
You explained it nicely. I read about Q and was left scratching my head. Thank you
Awesome Robert, glad it helped.
@@TheSmokinApe I take my extra test this weekend, and I have zero frame of reference for many of the concepts I'm studying. So many of the youtube hams assume their audience is composed of seasoned experts, so I am thankful.
@@TheSmokinApe I am looking for something clear and concise on "feed point impedance", since that topic comes up often enough too. There's really nothing on it out there.
This might help, it’s geared towards dipoles which all antennas are based off of: ruclips.net/video/0V6Zgrksf6k/видео.html
Great video man.
You did a fantastic job explaining this.
Thank you. MNHR
Team replay for the win!
Thanks NoCode, glad you liked it 👍
Thanks for clarifying "Q" as to what it means.
I have over the years of adding a capacitance hat 👒 to a mobile antenna to
improve the Q on that antenna, such a 40 or
80 meter mobile antenna. Ray, W2CH
Thanks for watching Ray 👍
And here I thought High Q meant high quality (re: signal). Thanks for clarifying that for me (us), Ape.
No problem, thanks for watching Warren 👍
Another great video Ape. Know I have a pretty good understanding of antenna Q 👍
Thanks Joe Brett, glad you liked it 👍
Now I know that "high Q" just means low bandwith. I never knew what people meant by this because they just say "high Q" like Im supposed to know what that means. Thanks Ape
Glad you liked the video, thanks for watching Robert 👍
Fantastic simplification of stuff I never understood, to knowledge that makes logical sense to me. Excellent job Sir!
Awesome, glad you liked it 👍
A high Q antenna is a real selling point when you are in a noisy environment, because it doesn't well receive off-frequency signals or noise. Also, the higher the Q of an antenna the more efficient it is as a radiator. Those are often very important antenna parameters. So any antenna should be designed with that info in mind for whatever your application. It's all about trade-offs, and you can't make the choices you need to make with only half of the information.
The 'best' antenna, as far as I'm concerned is one with a very high Q and a really good autotuner that also auto-tracks receive tuning. I don't know of any for sale commercially, but thanks to modern micro-controllers and stepper motors I think I may be able to design one.
I agree with your point about noisy environments. Thanks for watching and for the comment John.
Awesome! Keep these coming!
That's the plan, thanks for watching Bill!
Great video. I was unsure of my understanding of Q. It seems I wasn't far off.
Glad you enjoyed it!
There are a number of questions in the Extra Class pool concerning high/low Q and SWR bandwidth. Not explained very well in the study guide in my opinion. Your video is easier to understand. Definitely had to break open the ARRL Handbook and Antenna manual for this topic. 73, W1RKB
Thanks man, glad you liked it 👍
OMG I hit the like button and I've never been happier!
Haha, thank you 👍
Being a primary digital operator, i sit on a single ssb frequency all night sometimes. Using a Magnetic loop antenna is a minor issue. The problem is when the antenna cools and physically and electrically shortens at the same time. best to let them sit outside for awhile if moving from one extreme temp to another.
That's a fair point, I must have ADHD because I'm always jumping around like a mad man. Thanks for watching Will!
Great explanation Ape
N5PRK
Thanks Jim 👍
Nice job!
Thanks Dude 👍
Nice explanations - Thank you
Thanks Don 👍
What a Brilliant vidclip .... Yet Again !!!!! ..... So wished that you 'Lived around the Corner' as you have this Very Rare Talent where one can explain a Complex Subject Simply sothat All can understand it ..... !!!!! IF you were closer I would be knocking on your door Every Day .... :-) :-) :-) Lucky for you .... I am in Christchurch, New Zealand .... I am going to email you with a 'Copy n Paste' of a post that I put up on a Few Sites .... :-) :-) :-) Best to You and Yours and Thanks again for All your Wonderful and Super Informative vidclip .... Cheers from ChCh, NZ .... Keith ZL3KEI
Lol, thanks Keith. Glad you liked the video 👍
Ohhhhhhhhh! "High Q".....i came here for the poetry.......Haiku. Good stuff Ape! "Hams build antennas, throwing them into tall trees, You are 5-9 here."..lol
Lol, thanks for checking in Ron 👍
Well said.
Thanks Martin 👍
Thank you, Sir!♡♡♡
I really appreciate your videos :)
🤜🏻👍🤛🏻
Oh my goodness! At three minutes, when you say maths proper! Haha, let me tell you how happy that made me! Hecka! That's how much! Haha♡ you are awesome
Thanks Aname, I appreciate you watching!
Great explanation as always! Oh, and I clicked the things to make me happy but didn’t sense the same endorphin rush as normal. What gives?
Lol, thanks for watching Jason 👍
Full wave loops are ~200 ohm at the radiation resistance. These are low Q antennas. EFHW is high impedance on the end, but if you analyze the impedance across the hw stretch, the impedance is around 72 ohms in the middle. Now that's a lower Q antenna.
The mag loop and the loaded WRCoil vertical are "short" antennas. The radiation resistance on those is very low. Low resistance basically means high Q. Q is XL/R. So we can see easily here that if we use lossy ugly baluns or lossy 1:1 baluns, our lossy R increases and we create a lower Q antenna. ABC. Always Be Chokin' so we can lower our Q and create a more lossy antenna that is lower in Q. Yay loss.
Jerry, you are slipping son… you forgot lossy coils!
....if I remember my physics correctly, yes, everything you say is true....but only with regards to Q effect on SWR. Q is primarily a ratio of energy stored vs energy lost per cycle. That is to say, something that is high Q requires less energy to maintain resonance compared to something that is low Q. Life (and physics) is a compromise. High Q is good...for energy/resonance; however, has a detrimental effect on bandwidth (which can be important for us radio operators).
Correct and a fair point, I do these videos to help new hams as they enter into the hobby. I did, purposefully, limit the conversation to SWR. Thanks for calling it out and for watching.
thanks for video !!!!
You're welcome, thanks for watching Tony 👍
Something that I didn’t see is that a High Q antenna is more efficient, better signal. Also I believe that the statement that larger gauge wire will have a lower Q than a thinner wire to be wrong/confusing. Larger wire or element or coil is more efficient and a higher Q. Higher Q antennas have a narrower bandwidth.
I think the word efficient can be used to mean two things here; 1. an antennas ability to be used across a larger area of bandwidth 2. the energy required to use the antenna. What you are saying about energy is correct. It is my understanding that element diameter does play a role, here is an article I found today that may help: www.antentop.org/w4rnl.001/bw.html
@@TheSmokinApe Perhaps a "201" someday could be about how antenna resonance and SWR are two completely different things. Many a new ham sees them as synonymous. This indirectly causes much confusion to things like Q.
I've discussed it briefly in some of the live streams, it's on the list for a future video. Thanks for the suggestion and for watching 👍
@@TheSmokinApe efficient in this case is the amount of signal that actually radiated from the antenna. Non efficient antenna will absorb and dissipate a lot of the signal in the form of heat
the higher the Q, the better tuning fork you have. If your tuning fork produces a tone for quite a while, you have an awesome one. if you have a crappy one, the tone dampens out quickly, and probably took more effort striking it on something to get it to ring. A low q one isnt even worth playing with, cause you wont hear anything. I suppose a bell analogy would work here too. An impedance mismatch is how well, how hard, how delicate you have to strike the thing to make it ring. I suppose a low q unit would be a loudspeaker, since its frequency range is so large its whatever signal you send to it
Hey Jeremy, I like the analogy. IMO which might not be worth anything, it really depends on the operator and what they are trying to accomplish. THanks for the comment!
Q = f_resonant / Bandwidth_of_resonance. Where is the bandwidth measured? In normal resonant systems the width at half the maximum or peak value of the power delivery. Or the -3dB power points. But I haven't thought of it terms of the antenna curves. But it doesn't really matter, it's a qualitative measure. High Q systems are more selective around the resonant frequency (lasers are super high Q systems, for example).
That's pretty much what I showed. Bandwidth of Resonance is the bandwidth below what you determine as "acceptable". in the video I picked 2:1 for simplicity. Thanks for the comment!
Ape tnxs Q makes it clear 73
Thanks Paul, glad you liked it!
When using SDR software with a dongle you got to switch to the Q branch in dieect sampling to go into the HF region..is that the same Q? There is also an "I" branch..whats that for? The opposite to be used in the Ghz range?
Q branch is a type of sampling used in SDR, its stands for Quadrature. Totally different...
Great Video well explained enjoy your videos always ape !
Sal KM4PPV !
Thanks Sal 👍
Very smart man. Could you please povide a little more volume. I have my volume control all the way to the right. You are still hard to hear.
Thanks
Thanks for the feedback on the volume 👍
High Q is what hams drink. It's got electrolytes. It's the adult version of High C.
Tastes great too 👍
It's what plants crave.
Going to be worth watching !!!!
Hope so 👍
Internal antenna tuner tunes Mag Loop (Toroid Coupled) to almost any frequency across the 40m band. Does that really work?
This is an over-simplification and hopefully I explain it correctly. The Mag-Loop is essentially a large inductor and it's tuned by using an adjustable variable capacitor to bring the loop into resonance on the desired frequency. An internal tuner, or external for that matter, is a matching unit that matches the impedance between the radio and antenna making the antenna system appear to be 50 ohms to the radio, it technically does not tune the antenna at all. So, that means using the internal tuner doesn't make the Mag-Loop any more or less resonate on a particular frequency.
Hi Ape. Interesting video. Talking about antenna Q is not a particularly useful conversation. The Q calculation fails to differentiate undesirables (loss resistance) with desirables (radiation resistance). So it's rather uninformative. It is better to focus on bandwidth and efficiency. Beware of antennas that widen bandwidth by adding loss and reducing efficiency (like stainless steel wire coils). 73 de w6akb
Completely agree, thanks for checking out the video Alan. Hope you are well.
Stupid comment ahead: Q is a character in Startrek Next Generation! :-D Yes I know, go away Bob!
Lol 😂
You're just jealous cuz Q's bigger than yours
Right