Very interesting video - On our scotch boiler retube back in the 1980s, our inspector and boiler maker elected to just expand, which is Australian code. Coal fired with combustion chambers, so tube joints do not experience fire face temperatures. Tubes had 5/16" stickout front and back. We expanded tubes only (under Australian code) and did not bell mouth. We were embarrassed when we had a few weeps under pressure test, but boiler inspector praised this result, saying he was pleased we had not overexpanded and strained ligaments. 30 years later we retubed again, likely as a result of the boiler being steamed only occasionally as a museum ship. Tube ends in the combustion chambers remained as installed with no leaks or burning. Most tube failures were at worked edge where the rollering stopped. Note we are natural draft coal, and the tube ends are not exposed to forced draft or oil-fired temperatures. Our earlier boiler inspector and boiler maker had passed away, but the new guys chose to weld new stay tube ends and again, simply expand the plain tubes.
Boiler making is an art form and Jim is an artist! Great video, I have worked for Elliott Tools for over 20 years and this video of our tools is fantastic. I will share it with our clients.
Yes , it is amazing the skill that a pipefitter or boilermaker has to have . Yet being of the working class who actually get their hands and clothes dirty every day they are under appreciated in today's working world.
Studying for my stationary engineer exam. Never worked on tubes or sheets. I was reading boiler code, trying to understand all the rolls, and this video helped a lot with visuals.
I like Jimmy's expressionless look... i can almost hear him saying to himself " I ain't no actor "...all business...He's definitely skilled at what he does
As a boiler maker apprentice in the 60's the first job I was given was using the expanding mandrel on the tubes to tube plates, we did not have any electric tools, just a manual ratchet and after 1/2 hour I thought my arm was going to drop off. We used to weld tubes both ends and also have several solid stay bars in some holes to make sure the tube plates were truly held and to stop deformation that the tube expansion sometimes created.
Although I do not work directly on tube boilers, I am a chartered engineer. Videos like this are invaluable, since if I needed to call in a contractor, I would be able to separate the craftsmen from the cowboys. I am a firm believer in the old saying that if it is hard work, you are doing it wrong. A true craftsman makes it look so easy and his hands are not covered with scars and blisters.
I should be thanking you. While most people thing of youtube as being more about crazy pranks and people strutting about onstage with not too much clothing on. the educational part is what helps make it such a popular site. I am a great opera lover and even I was surprised when I noticed that good operatic productions posted reach a million viewings within a few weeks.
Welding around round tube in the vertical position with an arc welder is about the worst thing you can do. You NEVER weld VERTICAL DOWN with and ARC WELDER. All the molten flux runs down and off and away from your puddle and bead faster than you can ever weld a bead regardless because the liquid flux is LIGHTER AND THINNER than the LIQUID STEEL IN YOUR PUDDLE AND BEAD. It runs down away from you and then it runs into the joint and onto the base metal and you end up welding into and over SLAG the whole time. And since you don't have any or enough flux left on your BEAD and have little or no SLAG your BEAD ends up cooling too fast and in the OPEN AIR and will be POROUS AS HELL. I've been arc welding since junior high and gas welding with and without filler rod and brazing as long and back then I was as good as anybody I've ever seen and can still get it done after some practice and I took the real deal welder certification when I was a locomotive machinist at Union Pacific. Big V 1/8 wide at the bottom butt weld with a base plate underneath multi-pass no undercuts or beed below base plate metal on the cover passes and no bead above 1/8 and the instructor was a machinist and former pipeline/water tower/giant ass petroleum tank welder with more hours of vertical welding that I've got welding period and probably more like 10 times more and he was by the book so the bend test was by the book and the weld didn't have to break or crack to fail. HORIZONTAL, VERTICAL UP AND OVERHEAD. THAT is where I learned you don't EVER weld VERTICAL DOWN. And a MIG welder MIGHT BE "easy" compared to arc but there's nothing ELSE that is. Pick up a welding torch or TIG torch in one hand and filler rod in the other and start welding some aluminum or stainless or if you've never tried it just grab the gas torch and NOTHING and run some beads out of the base metal alone. I like to think I'm a pretty good welder because I can arc weld and most guys that can MIG weld decent can't arc weld to save their asses too. But I also KNOW I'm a pretty good welder because I've done it all over the years and pretty damned well and I picked it up in pretty short order and I've got LONG periods of time doing NONE of it and it doesn't take me TOO LONG to jump back into it. I've also done more "torch work" when it comes to cutting off bearings and cutting out bushings and torching out broken off bolts without taking the threads in the holes and in general if it can be done with a torch or rod or gun I've at least given it the old college try and haven't had to call for backup yet. I HAVE welded closed a lot of burned holes from getting too aggressive with MIG too and I'm not ashamed to admit that because MIG really isn't ALL THAT FUCKING EASY TO DO WELL JUST BECAUSE ITS A LOT EASIER THAN USING ARC FOR SOME THINGS ARC IS ALL BUT FUCKING IMPOSSIBLE FOR. As for getting welds "just right", ANYBODY can do that with enough time, materials and a GRINDER. ruclips.net/video/ZAX_ZhjJnwg/видео.html
Be careful there, buds. You're gonna dislocate your shoulder patting yourself on the back😆 and all a welder is, is a truck driver with his brains knocked out. Keep up the good work, pal
yes the flux can get stuck but there are rods rated for doing the vertical down motion two of which is the 6010 5p and the 7010 both that are asme approved for the r stamp welds that are required on boilers in the united states
Hope ppl be aware of thei situation n conditions boiler makers have to work in, especially fab. n welding the pipe work where required..nice tutorial video 👍..thnx 🤙
+zack gaurus Thanks for watching and commenting! Welding the tubes on both sides can be much more labor intensive in the installation and potential removal of the tubes. Secondly, when the boiler heats up and cools down the boiler will expand and contract which could then crack the welds. The reason for the beading is to allow for the transfer of heat from the tube to the tube sheet. Hopefully that answered your questions!
I asked one of our experts and he said you would collins roll for both. We recommend though getting with your boiler manufacturer on the recommended method for boiler tube installation. Hopefully that helps! Thanks for watching.
Good practice is always to roll the joint again after welding -- both the HAZ and distortion from the bead can cause cracking problems in service. Note that any 'cracking' in the seal-weld bead from straight-roll Collins prossering is of comparatively less importance unless it could act as a stress raiser into the tube or sheet metal in service, for example with thermal cycling. If that is perceived as a concern, there are straight rolls that can be inserted to leave the 'back' 5mm or so "unrolled" as this step is conducted.
Thanks for the question! The tubes inside of a firetube boiler are made out of a carbon steel. That metal can withstand all of the hot gases as well as pressures that can be inside of a boiler. Let us know if you have anymore questions.
Is there that many different "applications"? If SA178A is "common" would it pretty much be the best for use in a boiler? I know fuels and temps and pressures and applications differ as far as what the steam or hot water produced goes to downstream, but it pretty much still boils down (pun intended now but not when I started typing "boils", lol) to really not gases created by burning hydrocarbons inside the tubes and water outside the tubes. I'm sure there are materials that are cheaper or last longer or transfer heat better etc. but "better" is always subjective and a boiler is no place to ever "cut corners" and its ALWAYS the MANUFACTURER who is going to be the major factory in getting the BEST BOILER FOR THE APPLICATION and that may START at the tubes but it sure as hell doesn't end there. I know ONE thing about boilers or rather THESE boilers or maybe MANUFACTURER. I was IMPRESSED with what I SAW but what I HEARD told me I PROBABLY SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN IMPRESSED BY WHAT I SAW. There is NO WAY IN HELL a PROPERLY ENGINEERED AND DESIGNED AND CONSTRUCTED AND TESTED AND HANDLED AND LOADED AND TRANSPORTED AND UNLOADED BOILER SHOULD EVER LEAK AT ALL. WHEN ITS BRAND-NEW. Shipping is going to cause LEAKS? Give me a fucking break. We've had AIR-RIDE SUSPENSIONS ON SEMIS for a LONG TIME NOW and even though everybody in the country and world bitches about bad roads in their neck of the woods you have to look pretty damned hard to find a paved public road in the U.S. that is SO ROUGH it wouldn't hurt the TRUCK before it hurt the BOILER ON THE TRAILER. It might leak a little at first. Tell me what YOU last bought brand-new and for a LOT of money and to PERMANENTLY INSTALL IN YOUR HOME OR BUSINESS that came with THAT "disclaimer". I also got a kick out of the air hammer beader deal. Why could those tubes not be beaded using some sort of CONSISTENT and NON-BATTERING tool BEFORE they're slid through the plates to at least get them to a uniform and near-final expansion point using some sort of a SWEDGE or DIE in a PRESS or TUBING BENDER? I know damned good and well boilers have been around a HELL of a lot longer than AIR HAMMERS and I ALSO KNOW that if that "professional" and THOSE PARTS are all up to a high standard of precision, accuracy, quality and are RIGHT FOR THAT APPLICATION, there SHOULDN'T BE ANY LEAKS WHEN HE'S DONE ON even if its shipped on the worst truck with the worst driver ever on the worst roads ever. Those TUBES are the STAYS for that boiler as well as the passages for the heat to travel through to get to the water. And If there ARE any leaks when its new that SEAL THEMSELVES its because UNDER PRESSURE and when its FIRED the water flowing through those gaps is going to boil away and fill the gaps with the scale and corrosion it will leave when it evaporates and those gaps will go from being air gaps that cause hot spots to scale-filled gaps that cause HOTTER SPOTS because ANY THICKNESS OF "RUST SCALE" THAT FORMS ON IRON OR STEEL IN A BOILER OR ENGINE BLOCK OR SIMILAR ENVIRONMENT is a DAMNED GOOD INSULATOR AND ABOUT FOUR TIMES AS GOOD OF AN INSULATOR AS AN EQUIVALENT THICKNESS OF CAST IRON. And that's pretty much what he said in the video and he pretty much admitted that if they leak when they're new they're going to be leaking later and much sooner than they otherwise would. I guarantee if they leak when they're new and you make you a quick diagram of that boiler and the tubes and you note which tubes are leaking when its new and then go back whenever it starts leaking badly enough to be noticeable in the future and you find the leaks THEN and mark THOSE tubes on that diagram, you're going to have two marks on most of the tubes that are marked at all. Or more likely ALL of the original leakers will be leaking PLUS SOME. I'm WELL AWARE that BOILERS ARE BURNING THEMSELVES UP FROM THE SECOND YOU FIRE THEM FOR THE FIRST TIME. That's what makes them such a ridiculous waste of money that isn't obvious because they tend to LAST SO LONG when they're WELL MADE. And of course there's NOTHING that you put money into but get no REAL WORK out of (there are other ways to do everything steam does and much cheaper and more simply and more affordably up front and ever after if you do the math right) and have to be willing to either BABYSIT or BET YOUR LIFE ON SAFETY SYSTEMS that doesn't seem like a ridiculous waste of money when you think about it. But boilers ARE things you really do bet your life on even IF you babysit them and their simplicity and reliability are the two main things that make them so potentially dangerous. And there is NOTHING more destructive than a BOILER EXPLOSION. At least nothing you're going to going to be able to buy outside of North Korea or maybe Iran. And when you replace a boiler no matter what it has NOT been a fun or enjoyable or even satisfying process and probably NOTHING has gone according to "schedule" and nothing has been as "cheap" or "exactly what was quoted or bid" or even "THAT'S A LITTLE MORE EXPENSIVE THAN I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE AT MOST!" and you've been without a boiler and are probably wondering if you'll live long enough to go through THAT again and decide you probably won't and in fact you probably COULD HAVE BOUGHT THE SMALLER/CHEAPER/LOWER-QUALITY unit and it STILL would have outlasted you now that you've finally put eyes on the old unit up close and personal and saw it was old enough to vote twice over. So if YOU HEARD "it might leak a little" would you still be listening for the next "disclaimer"?
great show !! i really make sure about the welding of tubes against tube plate, since my manger reject this in afraid of expansion and cracking of tubes sheet. i win !
In my opinion you'd do this seal/transfer weld in 'thirds' -- make three initial welds at 12- degrees apart, and then weld progressively extending the beads until the full area is covered. Remember as noted that this weld is not "structural" -- it is only to provide heat transfer for the tube-end metal -- and in particular is NOT a full-pen weld either in the tube or in the sheet...
First of all, thank you for the great video clip. I have a rice husk boiler. Too bad, my boiler often has punctures in the fire tube, the hole is 1-2 cm from the tip of the tube. If anyone has experience with this, please share with me.
I'm a certified welder for a mechanical company that carries an r stamp. My question is, when we seal weld, we bead roll and weld the bead. Would you consider that to be incorrect? With that said why don't you guys just use a regular bead roller instead of beading by hand?
Thanks for the question. If the original design of the boiler was seal welded then they should not be beaded first. They should be straight rolled, seal welded, then rolled again. Make sure you consult with the boiler manufacturer and what they suggest. We have not been successful with a bead roller due to the tube sheets we find ourselves working on in the field. Most of the time the tube sheets are not true so the bead roller will not put the bead tight to the tube sheet the full circumference of the tube so have to go back and bead by hand anyway.
In my country the right method: 1-Tack expansion the first 8mm of the tube, just to close the gap. 2-Welding 3-Apply real expansion some 5 mm far from the weld. Otherwise, you are risking fracturing the weld.
You run into 'issues' if full-pen welding the joint between the tube and tubesheet, and if the boiler experiences frequent temperature cycling (as in most locomotive practice) you run the risk of cracking the weld, the tube, or the sheet with differential expansion. At one point, European practice (Meiningen IIRC) was to full-pen weld the rear of the tubes with care for combustion-plume impingement) and only prosser the other end, which 'sees' only the partial vacuum of the smokebox and has much lower thermal stress -- it is also much easier to access if a tube should start to leak at the smokebox end.
Take the Tube ID + Metal to metal clearance (Sheet hole - Tube OD) + Wall reduction (8%-12% of wall both sides) to get the Target roll diameter. On XID tubes, use our calculations to compensate these number for the extra material.
I think that's inherent in his stated reasons for using air-hammer beading instead of a beading or combination roller -- that if the tubesheet isn't normal to the flue the bead won't seat properly, and would 'have to be hand-sealed anyway'
Love to see that on BCG 13, CN 1551, CP 1278, 1293, BLE 643, NKP 763, KM 9, YWRR 19, GTW 4070, RRR 2100, GTW 6325, WLE 3960, and hopefully much much more.
Some locomotive practice may be different from that seen here for multipass commercial boilers. Locomotive practice might be its own set of videos here. Locomotives boilers are often forced more than commercial boilers 'ought to be', and they are frequently cycled quickly in temperature and pressure during operation. They may also spend considerable time at what amounts to very low turndown.
40 years as both asme pp and r welder on boilers. seal welding will cause a crack on the tube in boiler if used on hi presure 150 psi or so then set down on night fire 25 psi or so. some states 10 psi if no licence oppator there at night. tube sheets strech and contract and over time. making weld cracks. hartford steam inspection will not let tubes be welded. along with asme inspection srevices.
I think if I were buying a boiler I'd prefer to just have the thing welded on BOTH ends and have the best possible seal and heat transfer at both ends. I understand what he's saying about doing it at the "hot end" but any additional heat you can get out of the "cold end" is going to result in a lower tube temp overall. Now I just heard the part about brand new boilers leaking and I KNOW I'd want the thing welded at both ends. It seems like there's no way to get that rolling and beading process perfectly consistent from tube to tube and if there's a tendency for the a tube to "loosen up" after being rolled and beaded so it needs to be hit with the roller again, by the time that process is repeated with dozens of tubes there's no way some of the previously installed tubes won't have been affected and loosened slightly by having several tubes adjacent to them installed, rolled and beaded. Like I said weld mine at both ends and I'll pay the extra $$$ up front for a safer, longer-lasting and more efficient boiler that's tight and leak-free the day its installed. I'd have a real hard time feeling comfortable with a brand-new, just-installed boiler, which at that point I'm sure is already considered "used", that had leaks on Day One. I'm sure they DO seal up after they get warmed up but I'm also sure they seal up in part because of corrosion and rust forming in the leaking gaps as hot pressurized water, which is corrosive as hell because its an excellent solvent and is already being forced through the gaps, gradually turns new steel into new rust and scale. But if they're welded at both ends there won't be any leaks and no loose joints to begin with and you won't have to rely on rust and corrosion filling the gaps and/or going back into the boiler to "hit" the leaking tubes with a little more beating and bending of what is already a compromised joint. I also have to assume that the initial pressure check once the boiler is installed is a "static test" where the boiler is filled with water, capped off and the pressure is applied with an external pump and probably to a test pressure lower than the working pressure since there's no "gas pressure" on the "hot" side of the boiler tubes and end plates to counter water pressure. I'm sure the pressure on the hot side isn't all that high by comparison but with a cold boiler and a more "direct" and MUCH more UNIFORM pressure pushing against all surfaces on the water side the whole time, which is NOT the case with a fired boiler that has water flowing through it at different rates in different areas since the pressure of flowing liquids decreases as their speed increases, it seems to me that the old "seep vs. drip vs. leak" judgement call might come into play if a cold static test shows some "seeps" but no "drips" or maybe a few "drips" but no "leaks". I'm guessing there have to actual "leaks" and significant ones before "fire it up and see if it seals up" is out of the question and you go back into it immediately to "hit" those leaking pipes again. Like I said, at that point I'm sure it's a "used" boiler anyway but probably under warranty and the owner/customer really doesn't have much choice besides let the manufacturer, who is paying the "repair bill" for warranty work, do what they want to do first or demand that they go in and "hit" the leaking tubes before firing it at which point the warranty probably goes bye-bye at least for SUBSEQUENT repairs and the customer is even MORE on the hook for whatever happens down the road and REALLY owns a used boiler THEN. Either way, eventually its going to seal but if firing it and letting it run for a while and do its thing for hours or days ends up sealing it up, its probably NOT because gaps between steel components magically filled in with steel unless parts are BENDING and EXPANDING and STRETCHING and DISTORTING in ways I'm PRETTY SURE wouldn't be a good thing. What is MUCH more likely is that where there are gaps and there is poor heat transfer between the tubes and plate, the leaks may be PARTIALLY "fixed" by expansion as long as they STAY hot but there isn't going to be enough water pressure on the water side to "press" the plate out against the tubes which are going to "grow" LENGTHWISE. And the TIGHT tubes are going to transfer their heat better and stay cooler and expand less and will prevent the plate from "bulging" outward to "meet" the LOOSE tubes which will be HOTTER and EXPAND MORE because the gaps will keep them from transferring heat properly. Sure there will be some WATER in those gaps but that water is going to boil away immediately when IT becomes the heat "bridge" between plate and tube. But THAT BOILING WATER is what ACTUALLY ends up sealing those loose tubes as all the DISSOLVED SOLIDS in the water get left behind as scale and deposits in those gaps as water flows into them, boils away and leaves everything dissolved in it behind. And that ISN'T going to take very long because there is NEVER any shortage of all kinds of dissolved metals and minerals in any closed-loop heat-exchanger system filled with plain water. Over time the water in a closed loop system will dissolve and carry the "loose" and easily soluble metals and minerals back to the boiler and as it cools and keeps flowing through the system on the "return" side those metals and minerals will precipitate out and what ends up back at the boiler still in suspension in the coolest water in the system will be kept stirred up and and in solution in the boiler and when there are LEAKS its going to find them as the water its in finds them and when the water boils away and/or slowly seeps through any gaps at the tubes and then evaporates on the "hot" side of the joint those dissolved solids will form scale and the metals will oxidize and form rust and fill those gaps in no time with that rust scale that's such a GREAT INSULATOR. Which means the boiler will "seal up" and seem just hunky dory and without having to go in there and "hit" the leaking tubes again. But I'll bet if a guy draws a little diagram of the tubes and marks on it which ones were leaking when it was new there's a good chance that when the boiler has tubes start leaking down the line if THOSE leaking tubes are marked on the diagram there's going to be more tubes marked TWICE than tubes marked ONCE. There could be VERY GOOD reasons from an engineering standpoint for NOT welding both ends such as wanting one end "loose" so the tubes, which will NEVER EXPAND AND CONTRACT at the same rate regardless, don't end up doing one or the other too fast in one area and too slow in another so some get "stretched" and/or some get "crushed". But it occurs to me that in this type of boiler those TUBES are ALSO the boiler's STAYS and are tying the boiler together and that ideally they would ALL be as evenly "tensioned" as possible with the boiler "cold" which might not be any real "tension" at all but "tight". I have to think that goes right back to welding both ends. That has to be better than having gaps and leaks and poor heat transfer during a "leak test" with the boiler fired and having the gaps either "sealed" with scale if you're "lucky" or going back into a BRAND NEW BOILER to "hit" them again and tighten them up which could end up with THOSE being tighter than some or all of the OTHERS. Maybe welding both ends makes it impossible or prohibitively expensive to "re-tube" them later so the "benefit" for not doing so is having some "re-tube" business down the road or maybe welding ONE end makes them prohibitively expensive or impossible to re-tube or at least per manufacturer's recommendations so they can either buy a new boiler when the new one is old and worn out and leaking or roll the dice and have somebody retube it and probably pay a big chunk of what a new one would cost. Regardless, I'm pretty sure I'd still want both ends welded or a guarantee up front the new one is leak-free on Day 1 and I'd want it capped, filled and pressure-tested to at least half of the normal operating pressure at my location and before the existing one was touched to remove it. It can't be that difficult to cap or plug the inlets and outlets and fill it and apply 125 psi of compressed air to a fitting in one of the inlet or outlet caps. If it doesn't leak at 125 and by "doesn't leak" I mean pressurized to 125 before shutting off and disconnecting the compressed air to make sure it HOLDS 125 for a good 10-15 minutes. Then I'd be a happy camper and that's another situation where I'd be happy to pay a little extra for the piece of mind. I'm sorry but boilers are nothing to screw around with, they're big, expensive money-sucking monsters that are never going to do anything but take X amount of fuel containing Y amount of heat energy per unit and burn it and give you Y minus the heat energy that didn't go out the vent or into heating the boiler room or into the floor or walls and then the ground of a basement boiler room to USE TO DO WHATEVER WORK YOU NEED TO DO OR HEAT WHATEVER YOU NEED TO HEAT. And they NEVER need replaced or repaired at a "good time". I know that NOTHING DOES but let me rephrase that as they never need repaired or replaced at anything but the WORST POSSIBLE TIME. So if somebody told me my brand-new, very expensive, very important, very time-consuming and very soon to be my NEW money-munching monster might leak a little bit at first because...shipping (seriously guys have you not heard of air-ride suspension and paved roads and cautious driving?), but that it will probably seal up after its warmed up good and if NOT all it will probably need is to go back in there and "hit" the tubes with the beader and/or roller again, I don't think it can be enough better of a deal in any other way to stay off the BOTTOM of my "possible supplier" list.
Retired Boilermaker 35yrs, how come you didn't use your bore-gauge to check the inside tube diameter after rolling? Why aren't you using "Crisco" as a lube to roll the tubes? I don't think you've ever do tube rolling the right way.
I agree. Even on shell & tube heat exchangers we did just what you said. The yardbirds from Norfolk Naval shipyard showed us how to do it. I was a boiler tech. in the U.S. Navy for 6 yrs. We watched them replace a few boiler tubes on one of the boilers on our ship, also.
Former boilermaker here also. Crisco is the ONLY lubricant to use to roll tubes that will be welded. I’m not sure these guys know what they’re doing either.
Appreciate the comment. Unfortunately we do not have any Hindi speakers to do the translation. The best we can do is to have RUclips automatically translate it for Closed Captions. Thank you for watching though.
Io non essendo digiuno dei prodotti mi chiedo per quanti anni Avremo ancora queste lavorazioni. In ITALIA certi lavori li faceva la HAENA di mercato SARACENO ora non so se questa Azienda lavora ancora , Comunque ai livelli di allora non penso proprio.
If you expand welded joint afterwards then you are risking to have a crack. The best way is to use an expander which is just expanding inner the tube sheet surface.
I would have thought the plate or bulkhead or whatever would be more rigid than the thin tube wall, and if you rolled till the cows came home the tube would always spring back more than the plate and leave you with a tiny gap. Something like a cartridge case in a gun... it goes in way loose, gets hit with maybe double the force necessary to expand it out to the chamber wall, does indeed become permanently deformed, yet always contracts back enough to allow easy extraction. Or almost always, anyway.
@@selcuksancak It can't have both permanent deformation AND a bit of spring-back? Googling "rolling torque moment" did not turn up any results that I could relate to this situation. I'm just trying to understand it, not be a smart-aleck.
@@Fuzzybeanerizer To expand the tube it's applied a rolling force. We call it rolling torque or rolling torque moment. That's true. the tube spring back too. But it's mostly deformed permanently. As the tube sheet is thicker than the tube wall in this force direction then the tube sheet stays in the elastic area which means that the tube sheet is applying a constant spring force from outside of the tube which doesn't allow a gap in between the hole and the tube surface. Hope to make it clear.
@@selcuksancak In some locomotive-boiler practice, there is a circumferential recess cut and smoothed in the tubesheet, and the tube is then prossered so that metal fills this gtroove to help lock the tube against leaking when under pressure. Are there other videos that discuss the use of copper ferrules between tube and sheet to get better heat transfer and some additional 'seal forming' when the tube is rolled? That's not common practice in commercial boilers, but can be found in other firetube practice...
@@wizlish This type of recesses are not necessarily dedicated to impermeability. They are mainly dedicated to avoiding axial displacement of the tubes resulting that their neighbor area keeping the tightness.
That's what the test stand is for. Better to learn here and get a leaky tube to learn with than on the boiler with the customer waiting! Thanks for watching!
If you watch in the video around :55 he explains what is actually creating the seal. The process of rolling the tube will actually make it water tight. Thanks for the comment and thanks for watching!
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The two mouthpieces are goin on and on; standing quietly is the man that most of us would appreciate hearing from...
Very interesting video - On our scotch boiler retube back in the 1980s, our inspector and boiler maker elected to just expand, which is Australian code. Coal fired with combustion chambers, so tube joints do not experience fire face temperatures. Tubes had 5/16" stickout front and back. We expanded tubes only (under Australian code) and did not bell mouth. We were embarrassed when we had a few weeps under pressure test, but boiler inspector praised this result, saying he was pleased we had not overexpanded and strained ligaments. 30 years later we retubed again, likely as a result of the boiler being steamed only occasionally as a museum ship. Tube ends in the combustion chambers remained as installed with no leaks or burning. Most tube failures were at worked edge where the rollering stopped. Note we are natural draft coal, and the tube ends are not exposed to forced draft or oil-fired temperatures. Our earlier boiler inspector and boiler maker had passed away, but the new guys chose to weld new stay tube ends and again, simply expand the plain tubes.
Boiler making is an art form and Jim is an artist!
Great video, I have worked for Elliott Tools for over 20 years and this video of our tools is fantastic. I will share it with our clients.
Yes , it is amazing the skill that a pipefitter or boilermaker has to have . Yet being of the working class who actually get their hands and clothes dirty every day they are under appreciated in today's working world.
Thanks Jimmy for persevering. You are an expert, be proud.
We appreciate everything that Jimmy does and we are glad to have him! Thanks for watching!
Give Jimmy a raise $$$
Studying for my stationary engineer exam. Never worked on tubes or sheets. I was reading boiler code, trying to understand all the rolls, and this video helped a lot with visuals.
Great illustration, thanks for uploading!
I like Jimmy's expressionless look... i can almost hear him saying to himself " I ain't no actor "...all business...He's definitely skilled at what he does
As a boiler maker apprentice in the 60's the first job I was given was using the expanding mandrel on the tubes to tube plates, we did not have any electric tools, just a manual ratchet and after 1/2 hour I thought my arm was going to drop off. We used to weld tubes both ends and also have several solid stay bars in some holes to make sure the tube plates were truly held and to stop deformation that the tube expansion sometimes created.
Where I work, that's how we start everybody. You gotta learn the hard way before you can appreciate the easy way.
Crazy talk! What local, brother?
Gotta love guys that actually KNOW HOW TO DO THINGS.
Thanks for your comment and thanks for watching!
BCG 13, CN 1551, CP 1278, 1293, GTW 6325, and possibly NKP 763, BLE 643, and maybe US Army 2630 could use some TLC if 1472s are available.
Factors to consider - inside dia, outside dia, expansion ratio and tube material. Applicable to Marine Boilers and fire tube boilers.
Although I do not work directly on tube boilers, I am a chartered engineer.
Videos like this are invaluable, since if I needed to call in a contractor, I would be able to separate the craftsmen from the cowboys.
I am a firm believer in the old saying that if it is hard work, you are doing it wrong. A true craftsman makes it look so easy and his hands are not covered with scars and blisters.
Glad our videos can help out. Thanks for watching!
I should be thanking you.
While most people thing of youtube as being more about crazy pranks and people strutting about onstage with not too much clothing on. the educational part is what helps make it such a popular site.
I am a great opera lover and even I was surprised when I noticed that good operatic productions posted reach a million viewings within a few weeks.
Great show.High fives to you american.Thank you RITCHIE and STEVE for making my concepts clear.Greetings Annaba Algeria.
Appreciate the comment and thanks for watching!
Hey , great vids . How about a video about the new weldless tube replacement in modern CB water tube boilers .
Great suggestion! We will look into it.
its nice to see stick welding (arc welding) still used its what I prefer and its a skill that takes lots of time to get just right.
Welding around round tube in the vertical position with an arc welder is about the worst thing you can do. You NEVER weld VERTICAL DOWN with and ARC WELDER. All the molten flux runs down and off and away from your puddle and bead faster than you can ever weld a bead regardless because the liquid flux is LIGHTER AND THINNER than the LIQUID STEEL IN YOUR PUDDLE AND BEAD. It runs down away from you and then it runs into the joint and onto the base metal and you end up welding into and over SLAG the whole time. And since you don't have any or enough flux left on your BEAD and have little or no SLAG your BEAD ends up cooling too fast and in the OPEN AIR and will be POROUS AS HELL. I've been arc welding since junior high and gas welding with and without filler rod and brazing as long and back then I was as good as anybody I've ever seen and can still get it done after some practice and I took the real deal welder certification when I was a locomotive machinist at Union Pacific.
Big V 1/8 wide at the bottom butt weld with a base plate underneath multi-pass no undercuts or beed below base plate metal on the cover passes and no bead above 1/8 and the instructor was a machinist and former pipeline/water tower/giant ass petroleum tank welder with more hours of vertical welding that I've got welding period and probably more like 10 times more and he was by the book so the bend test was by the book and the weld didn't have to break or crack to fail. HORIZONTAL, VERTICAL UP AND OVERHEAD. THAT is where I learned you don't EVER weld VERTICAL DOWN. And a MIG welder MIGHT BE "easy" compared to arc but there's nothing ELSE that is. Pick up a welding torch or TIG torch in one hand and filler rod in the other and start welding some aluminum or stainless or if you've never tried it just grab the gas torch and NOTHING and run some beads out of the base metal alone.
I like to think I'm a pretty good welder because I can arc weld and most guys that can MIG weld decent can't arc weld to save their asses too. But I also KNOW I'm a pretty good welder because I've done it all over the years and pretty damned well and I picked it up in pretty short order and I've got LONG periods of time doing NONE of it and it doesn't take me TOO LONG to jump back into it. I've also done more "torch work" when it comes to cutting off bearings and cutting out bushings and torching out broken off bolts without taking the threads in the holes and in general if it can be done with a torch or rod or gun I've at least given it the old college try and haven't had to call for backup yet. I HAVE welded closed a lot of burned holes from getting too aggressive with MIG too and I'm not ashamed to admit that because MIG really isn't ALL THAT FUCKING EASY TO DO WELL JUST BECAUSE ITS A LOT EASIER THAN USING ARC FOR SOME THINGS ARC IS ALL BUT FUCKING IMPOSSIBLE FOR.
As for getting welds "just right", ANYBODY can do that with enough time, materials and a GRINDER.
ruclips.net/video/ZAX_ZhjJnwg/видео.html
Be careful there, buds. You're gonna dislocate your shoulder patting yourself on the back😆 and all a welder is, is a truck driver with his brains knocked out. Keep up the good work, pal
yes the flux can get stuck but there are rods rated for doing the vertical down motion two of which is the 6010 5p and the 7010 both that are asme approved for the r stamp welds that are required on boilers in the united states
DEEREMEYER1 they arc weld downhill with flux all the time 😂 all pipeline welding is done that way. Even passed x-ray
@@deeremeyer1749 sorry but you are wrong. Pipe guys run 5p downhill alll day on roots.
Nice video!
Thanks for the visit
Truly artwork.
Hope ppl be aware of thei situation n conditions boiler makers have to work in, especially fab. n welding the pipe work where required..nice tutorial video 👍..thnx 🤙
Thanks for watching and the great comment!
Best channel
Its good. Can you give an video for for the same for vertical boiler from start to end procedure. I will be thankful.
We can see what we can do. Thanks for watching!
First class videos
great video. Just want to ask. why not weld the tubes on both side. why the need for beading??
+zack gaurus Thanks for watching and commenting! Welding the tubes on both sides can be much more labor intensive in the installation and potential removal of the tubes. Secondly, when the boiler heats up and cools down the boiler will expand and contract which could then crack the welds. The reason for the beading is to allow for the transfer of heat from the tube to the tube sheet. Hopefully that answered your questions!
Thank you for your explanation. fully understood.
Love the video and the information. 👊
Glad you enjoyed it!
Great video guys! 👍
In Cleaver brook they has a machines for flare pipes making done in one step
Claudio Jmenez it is called the combination beading expander from Thomas C wilson
fantastic Jimmy
Thank you jimmy
Why you are not using a beading tube expander?
But if you seal weld a beaded tube do you roll with the collins roll after beading and again after seal weld or only after seal weld?
I asked one of our experts and he said you would collins roll for both. We recommend though getting with your boiler manufacturer on the recommended method for boiler tube installation. Hopefully that helps! Thanks for watching.
Good practice is always to roll the joint again after welding -- both the HAZ and distortion from the bead can cause cracking problems in service. Note that any 'cracking' in the seal-weld bead from straight-roll Collins prossering is of comparatively less importance unless it could act as a stress raiser into the tube or sheet metal in service, for example with thermal cycling. If that is perceived as a concern, there are straight rolls that can be inserted to leave the 'back' 5mm or so "unrolled" as this step is conducted.
Great video to explain the process. One question I have is how much tube do you allow to sick out of the tube sheet to give a good bead?
3/16. Just lay a piece of soapstone up next to the stick out for a guide
hi these videos educational i would like to know what kind of material is the fire tubes are made of
Thanks for the question! The tubes inside of a firetube boiler are made out of a carbon steel. That metal can withstand all of the hot gases as well as pressures that can be inside of a boiler. Let us know if you have anymore questions.
Common is SA178A, however, code stamped professionals, like Ware, can select the best for the application
Is there that many different "applications"? If SA178A is "common" would it pretty much be the best for use in a boiler? I know fuels and temps and pressures and applications differ as far as what the steam or hot water produced goes to downstream, but it pretty much still boils down (pun intended now but not when I started typing "boils", lol) to really not gases created by burning hydrocarbons inside the tubes and water outside the tubes. I'm sure there are materials that are cheaper or last longer or transfer heat better etc. but "better" is always subjective and a boiler is no place to ever "cut corners" and its ALWAYS the MANUFACTURER who is going to be the major factory in getting the BEST BOILER FOR THE APPLICATION and that may START at the tubes but it sure as hell doesn't end there. I know ONE thing about boilers or rather THESE boilers or maybe MANUFACTURER. I was IMPRESSED with what I SAW but what I HEARD told me
I PROBABLY SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN IMPRESSED BY WHAT I SAW. There is NO WAY IN HELL a PROPERLY ENGINEERED AND DESIGNED AND CONSTRUCTED AND TESTED AND HANDLED AND LOADED AND TRANSPORTED AND UNLOADED BOILER SHOULD EVER LEAK AT ALL. WHEN ITS BRAND-NEW. Shipping is going to cause LEAKS? Give me a fucking break. We've had AIR-RIDE SUSPENSIONS ON SEMIS for a LONG TIME NOW and even though everybody in the country and world bitches about bad roads in their neck of the woods you have to look pretty damned hard to find a paved public road in the U.S. that is SO ROUGH it wouldn't hurt the TRUCK before it hurt the BOILER ON THE TRAILER.
It might leak a little at first. Tell me what YOU last bought brand-new and for a LOT of money and to PERMANENTLY INSTALL IN YOUR HOME OR BUSINESS that came with THAT "disclaimer".
I also got a kick out of the air hammer beader deal. Why could those tubes not be beaded using some sort of CONSISTENT and NON-BATTERING tool BEFORE they're slid through the plates to at least get them to a uniform and near-final expansion point using some sort of a SWEDGE or DIE in a PRESS or TUBING BENDER? I know damned good and well boilers have been around a HELL of a lot longer than AIR HAMMERS and I ALSO KNOW that if that "professional" and THOSE PARTS are all up to a high standard of precision, accuracy, quality and are RIGHT FOR THAT APPLICATION, there SHOULDN'T BE ANY LEAKS WHEN HE'S DONE ON even if its shipped on the worst truck with the worst driver ever on the worst roads ever.
Those TUBES are the STAYS for that boiler as well as the passages for the heat to travel through to get to the water. And If there ARE any leaks when its new that SEAL THEMSELVES its because UNDER PRESSURE and when its FIRED the water flowing through those gaps is going to boil away and fill the gaps with the scale and corrosion it will leave when it evaporates and those gaps will go from being air gaps that cause hot spots to scale-filled gaps that cause HOTTER SPOTS because ANY THICKNESS OF "RUST SCALE" THAT FORMS ON IRON OR STEEL IN A BOILER OR ENGINE BLOCK OR SIMILAR ENVIRONMENT is a DAMNED GOOD INSULATOR AND ABOUT FOUR TIMES AS GOOD OF AN INSULATOR AS AN EQUIVALENT THICKNESS OF CAST IRON.
And that's pretty much what he said in the video and he pretty much admitted that if they leak when they're new they're going to be leaking later and much sooner than they otherwise would. I guarantee if they leak when they're new and you make you a quick diagram of that boiler and the tubes and you note which tubes are leaking when its new and then go back whenever it starts leaking badly enough to be noticeable in the future and you find the leaks THEN and mark THOSE tubes on that diagram, you're going to have two marks on most of the tubes that are marked at all. Or more likely ALL of the original leakers will be leaking PLUS SOME.
I'm WELL AWARE that BOILERS ARE BURNING THEMSELVES UP FROM THE SECOND YOU FIRE THEM FOR THE FIRST TIME. That's what makes them such a ridiculous waste of money that isn't obvious because they tend to LAST SO LONG when they're WELL MADE. And of course there's NOTHING that you put money into but get no REAL WORK out of (there are other ways to do everything steam does and much cheaper and more simply and more affordably up front and ever after if you do the math right) and have to be willing to either BABYSIT or BET YOUR LIFE ON SAFETY SYSTEMS that doesn't seem like a ridiculous waste of money when you think about it.
But boilers ARE things you really do bet your life on even IF you babysit them and their simplicity and reliability are the two main things that make them so potentially dangerous. And there is NOTHING more destructive than a BOILER EXPLOSION. At least nothing you're going to going to be able to buy outside of North Korea or maybe Iran. And when you replace a boiler no matter what it has NOT been a fun or enjoyable or even satisfying process and probably NOTHING has gone according to "schedule" and nothing has been as "cheap" or "exactly what was quoted or bid" or even "THAT'S A LITTLE MORE EXPENSIVE THAN I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE AT MOST!" and you've been without a boiler and are probably wondering if you'll live long enough to go through THAT again and decide you probably won't and in fact you probably COULD HAVE BOUGHT THE SMALLER/CHEAPER/LOWER-QUALITY unit and it STILL would have outlasted you now that you've finally put eyes on the old unit up close and personal and saw it was old enough to vote twice over.
So if YOU HEARD "it might leak a little" would you still be listening for the next "disclaimer"?
How is the tube bundle placed in the shell without leaking around the tube sheet? Sorry if there's a video that I didn't see.
great show !!
i really make sure about the welding of tubes against tube plate, since my manger reject this in afraid of expansion and cracking of tubes sheet.
i win !
In my opinion you'd do this seal/transfer weld in 'thirds' -- make three initial welds at 12- degrees apart, and then weld progressively extending the beads until the full area is covered. Remember as noted that this weld is not "structural" -- it is only to provide heat transfer for the tube-end metal -- and in particular is NOT a full-pen weld either in the tube or in the sheet...
EXCELENT VIDEO THANKS A LOT
EXCELENTE DEMOSTRACIÓN
Thanks for watching and commenting!
First of all, thank you for the great video clip.
I have a rice husk boiler.
Too bad, my boiler often has punctures in the fire tube, the hole is 1-2 cm from the tip of the tube.
If anyone has experience with this, please share with me.
Would it be difficult to get the script in English (not the automatic you tube)?
Question how far does the tubing need to stick out before you roll the tube. Is there a measurement or does it matter?
3/16 of an inch
super video this video really help to my carrier
srinivaas nagar creations there is a better and easy way to bead the tubes
please do you know any company o this project
I'm a certified welder for a mechanical company that carries an r stamp. My question is, when we seal weld, we bead roll and weld the bead. Would you consider that to be incorrect? With that said why don't you guys just use a regular bead roller instead of beading by hand?
Thanks for the question. If the original design of the boiler was seal welded then they should not be beaded first. They should be straight rolled, seal welded, then rolled again. Make sure you consult with the boiler manufacturer and what they suggest.
We have not been successful with a bead roller due to the tube sheets we find ourselves working on in the field. Most of the time the tube sheets are not true so the bead roller will not put the bead tight to the tube sheet the full circumference of the tube so have to go back and bead by hand anyway.
Ask The Navy about welding the tubes when the process they engineered thje astroarc system on board the USS Saratoga went wrong ?
In my country the right method:
1-Tack expansion the first 8mm of the tube, just to close the gap.
2-Welding
3-Apply real expansion some 5 mm far from the weld. Otherwise, you are risking fracturing the weld.
where can I buy the usa tubes in nyc
Can pne of those jogs be purchased?
Donde compro ese taladro
- How much stock do you allow to stick out to ensure you have enough material to roll, flair and bead?
See above: 3/16" for the tube diameter and wall thickness used in these mutipass-boiler firetubes
I’d give this video a 21 blowdown salute!!! 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻✊🏻🇺🇸✊🏻🇺🇸✊🏻
Didn't know we needed a blowdown salute until this comment. Amazing. 😊 Thanks for watching!
thanks for uploading sir
this boiler is meant to be fire tube or smoke tube, or we can't tell by the look of it?
It's a multipass commercial boiler, so they are all firetubes and there are no flues for a superheater
@@wizlish thank you for the enlightenment
IT COULD BE ACCEPTABLE WELD IN BOTH TUBE SIDES ?
You run into 'issues' if full-pen welding the joint between the tube and tubesheet, and if the boiler experiences frequent temperature cycling (as in most locomotive practice) you run the risk of cracking the weld, the tube, or the sheet with differential expansion. At one point, European practice (Meiningen IIRC) was to full-pen weld the rear of the tubes with care for combustion-plume impingement) and only prosser the other end, which 'sees' only the partial vacuum of the smokebox and has much lower thermal stress -- it is also much easier to access if a tube should start to leak at the smokebox end.
What is name the tools ?
Great video :)
+Carlos Barrios Thanks for the comment! We really enjoy making these videos to help out the boiler industry.
very good
Thanks!
And what about the grease on tube before expanding ? It's good to see that the US is repairing so bad boilers
Umm... He puts lube in before rolling. Pay attention.
If you’re going to weld the tube, don’t use grease or petroleum oil. Use Crisco. It works great and burns off really clean.
Great Presentation!! & great video! the only thing i will added to that is measuring the % of expanded metal to metal,
Take the Tube ID + Metal to metal clearance (Sheet hole - Tube OD) + Wall reduction (8%-12% of wall both sides) to get the Target roll diameter. On XID tubes, use our calculations to compensate these number for the extra material.
what brand of drill
Why not use a beading expander
+1
Why not roll it on both sides to keep it symmetric? Or why not weld it on both sides to keep it symmetric?
Tnx
does steve go out to the job and contract roll tubes?
we do.
I think that's inherent in his stated reasons for using air-hammer beading instead of a beading or combination roller -- that if the tubesheet isn't normal to the flue the bead won't seat properly, and would 'have to be hand-sealed anyway'
BOILERMAKERS RULE
Yes sir thanks
specification of 17mn4 for boiler tubes moc
The real natural Engineers
Nice
Love to see that on BCG 13, CN 1551, CP 1278, 1293, BLE 643, NKP 763, KM 9, YWRR 19, GTW 4070, RRR 2100, GTW 6325, WLE 3960, and hopefully much much more.
Some locomotive practice may be different from that seen here for multipass commercial boilers. Locomotive practice might be its own set of videos here.
Locomotives boilers are often forced more than commercial boilers 'ought to be', and they are frequently cycled quickly in temperature and pressure during operation. They may also spend considerable time at what amounts to very low turndown.
did they just 6010 that ?
"It's for heat transfer ONLY"...
Why the hell u don t weld it with TIG?
+1
40 years as both asme pp and r welder on boilers. seal welding will cause a crack on the tube in boiler if used on hi presure 150 psi or so then set down on night fire 25 psi or so. some states 10 psi if no licence oppator there at night. tube sheets strech and contract and over time. making weld cracks. hartford steam inspection will not let tubes be welded. along with asme inspection srevices.
I think if I were buying a boiler I'd prefer to just have the thing welded on BOTH ends and have the best possible seal and heat transfer at both ends. I understand what he's saying about doing it at the "hot end" but any additional heat you can get out of the "cold end" is going to result in a lower tube temp overall. Now I just heard the part about brand new boilers leaking and I KNOW I'd want the thing welded at both ends. It seems like there's no way to get that rolling and beading process perfectly consistent from tube to tube and if there's a tendency for the a tube to "loosen up" after being rolled and beaded so it needs to be hit with the roller again, by the time that process is repeated with dozens of tubes there's no way some of the previously installed tubes won't have been affected and loosened slightly by having several tubes adjacent to them installed, rolled and beaded. Like I said weld mine at both ends and I'll pay the extra $$$ up front for a safer, longer-lasting and more efficient boiler that's tight and leak-free the day its installed.
I'd have a real hard time feeling comfortable with a brand-new, just-installed boiler, which at that point I'm sure is already considered "used", that had leaks on Day One. I'm sure they DO seal up after they get warmed up but I'm also sure they seal up in part because of corrosion and rust forming in the leaking gaps as hot pressurized water, which is corrosive as hell because its an excellent solvent and is already being forced through the gaps, gradually turns new steel into new rust and scale. But if they're welded at both ends there won't be any leaks and no loose joints to begin with and you won't have to rely on rust and corrosion filling the gaps and/or going back into the boiler to "hit" the leaking tubes with a little more beating and bending of what is already a compromised joint.
I also have to assume that the initial pressure check once the boiler is installed is a "static test" where the boiler is filled with water, capped off and the pressure is applied with an external pump and probably to a test pressure lower than the working pressure since there's no "gas pressure" on the "hot" side of the boiler tubes and end plates to counter water pressure. I'm sure the pressure on the hot side isn't all that high by comparison but with a cold boiler and a more "direct" and MUCH more UNIFORM pressure pushing against all surfaces on the water side the whole time, which is NOT the case with a fired boiler that has water flowing through it at different rates in different areas since the pressure of flowing liquids decreases as their speed increases, it seems to me that the old "seep vs. drip vs. leak" judgement call might come into play if a cold static test shows some "seeps" but no "drips" or maybe a few "drips" but no "leaks". I'm guessing there have to actual "leaks" and significant ones before "fire it up and see if it seals up" is out of the question and you go back into it immediately to "hit" those leaking pipes again.
Like I said, at that point I'm sure it's a "used" boiler anyway but probably under warranty and the owner/customer really doesn't have much choice besides let the manufacturer, who is paying the "repair bill" for warranty work, do what they want to do first or demand that they go in and "hit" the leaking tubes before firing it at which point the warranty probably goes bye-bye at least for SUBSEQUENT repairs and the customer is even MORE on the hook for whatever happens down the road and REALLY owns a used boiler THEN.
Either way, eventually its going to seal but if firing it and letting it run for a while and do its thing for hours or days ends up sealing it up, its probably NOT because gaps between steel components magically filled in with steel unless parts are BENDING and EXPANDING and STRETCHING and DISTORTING in ways I'm PRETTY SURE wouldn't be a good thing. What is MUCH more likely is that where there are gaps and there is poor heat transfer between the tubes and plate, the leaks may be PARTIALLY "fixed" by expansion as long as they STAY hot but there isn't going to be enough water pressure on the water side to "press" the plate out against the tubes which are going to "grow" LENGTHWISE.
And the TIGHT tubes are going to transfer their heat better and stay cooler and expand less and will prevent the plate from "bulging" outward to "meet" the LOOSE tubes which will be HOTTER and EXPAND MORE because the gaps will keep them from transferring heat properly. Sure there will be some WATER in those gaps but that water is going to boil away immediately when IT becomes the heat "bridge" between plate and tube. But THAT BOILING WATER is what ACTUALLY ends up sealing those loose tubes as all the DISSOLVED SOLIDS in the water get left behind as scale and deposits in those gaps as water flows into them, boils away and leaves everything dissolved in it behind.
And that ISN'T going to take very long because there is NEVER any shortage of all kinds of dissolved metals and minerals in any closed-loop heat-exchanger system filled with plain water. Over time the water in a closed loop system will dissolve and carry the "loose" and easily soluble metals and minerals back to the boiler and as it cools and keeps flowing through the system on the "return" side those metals and minerals will precipitate out and what ends up back at the boiler still in suspension in the coolest water in the system will be kept stirred up and and in solution in the boiler and when there are LEAKS its going to find them as the water its in finds them and when the water boils away and/or slowly seeps through any gaps at the tubes and then evaporates on the "hot" side of the joint those dissolved solids will form scale and the metals will oxidize and form rust and fill those gaps in no time with that rust scale that's such a GREAT INSULATOR.
Which means the boiler will "seal up" and seem just hunky dory and without having to go in there and "hit" the leaking tubes again. But I'll bet if a guy draws a little diagram of the tubes and marks on it which ones were leaking when it was new there's a good chance that when the boiler has tubes start leaking down the line if THOSE leaking tubes are marked on the diagram there's going to be more tubes marked TWICE than tubes marked ONCE.
There could be VERY GOOD reasons from an engineering standpoint for NOT welding both ends such as wanting one end "loose" so the tubes, which will NEVER EXPAND AND CONTRACT at the same rate regardless, don't end up doing one or the other too fast in one area and too slow in another so some get "stretched" and/or some get "crushed".
But it occurs to me that in this type of boiler those TUBES are ALSO the boiler's STAYS and are tying the boiler together and that ideally they would ALL be as evenly "tensioned" as possible with the boiler "cold" which might not be any real "tension" at all but "tight". I have to think that goes right back to welding both ends. That has to be better than having gaps and leaks and poor heat transfer during a "leak test" with the boiler fired and having the gaps either "sealed" with scale if you're "lucky" or going back into a BRAND NEW BOILER to "hit" them again and tighten them up which could end up with THOSE being tighter than some or all of the OTHERS.
Maybe welding both ends makes it impossible or prohibitively expensive to "re-tube" them later so the "benefit" for not doing so is having some "re-tube" business down the road or maybe welding ONE end makes them prohibitively expensive or impossible to re-tube or at least per manufacturer's recommendations so they can either buy a new boiler when the new one is old and worn out and leaking or roll the dice and have somebody retube it and probably pay a big chunk of what a new one would cost.
Regardless, I'm pretty sure I'd still want both ends welded or a guarantee up front the new one is leak-free on Day 1 and I'd want it capped, filled and pressure-tested to at least half of the normal operating pressure at my location and before the existing one was touched to remove it. It can't be that difficult to cap or plug the inlets and outlets and fill it and apply 125 psi of compressed air to a fitting in one of the inlet or outlet caps. If it doesn't leak at 125 and by "doesn't leak" I mean pressurized to 125 before shutting off and disconnecting the compressed air to make sure it HOLDS 125 for a good 10-15 minutes.
Then I'd be a happy camper and that's another situation where I'd be happy to pay a little extra for the piece of mind. I'm sorry but boilers are nothing to screw around with, they're big, expensive money-sucking monsters that are never going to do anything but take X amount of fuel containing Y amount of heat energy per unit and burn it and give you Y minus the heat energy that didn't go out the vent or into heating the boiler room or into the floor or walls and then the ground of a basement boiler room to USE TO DO WHATEVER WORK YOU NEED TO DO OR HEAT WHATEVER YOU NEED TO HEAT. And they NEVER need replaced or repaired at a "good time". I know that NOTHING DOES but let me rephrase that as they never need repaired or replaced at anything but the WORST POSSIBLE TIME.
So if somebody told me my brand-new, very expensive, very important, very time-consuming and very soon to be my NEW money-munching monster might leak a little bit at first because...shipping (seriously guys have you not heard of air-ride suspension and paved roads and cautious driving?), but that it will probably seal up after its warmed up good and if NOT all it will probably need is to go back in there and "hit" the tubes with the beader and/or roller again, I don't think it can be enough better of a deal in any other way to stay off the BOTTOM of my "possible supplier" list.
that was long
That's what my gf said.
nice
10 Ga, 12 Ga tubes... Theres so much to learn.
Didn't let Jim say a goddam thing. Way to respect your employees.
good
Retired Boilermaker 35yrs, how come you didn't use your bore-gauge to check the inside tube diameter after rolling? Why aren't you using "Crisco" as a lube to roll the tubes? I don't think you've ever do tube rolling the right way.
I agree. Even on shell & tube heat exchangers we did just what you said. The yardbirds from Norfolk Naval shipyard showed us how to do it. I was a boiler tech. in the U.S. Navy for 6 yrs. We watched them replace a few boiler tubes on one of the boilers on our ship, also.
Former boilermaker here also. Crisco is the ONLY lubricant to use to roll tubes that will be welded. I’m not sure these guys know what they’re doing either.
@@henryridgeway5750 Than it would smell like fried chicken when you started welding the tubes.
Very good. but if hindi dubbing we get,then it's benifitial for us.
Dy.Director boilers , Government of haryana
Appreciate the comment. Unfortunately we do not have any Hindi speakers to do the translation. The best we can do is to have RUclips automatically translate it for Closed Captions. Thank you for watching though.
Tube expander
👍👍
BOILERMAKERS🇨🇦🇨🇦🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
That guy doing the work did not raise his hand to participate in the video. 😂😂😒😒
Maybe he was forced to act his part and did not get any bonus like the others did ?
Io non essendo digiuno dei prodotti mi chiedo per quanti anni Avremo ancora queste lavorazioni. In ITALIA certi lavori li faceva la HAENA di mercato SARACENO ora non so se questa Azienda lavora ancora , Comunque ai livelli di allora non penso proprio.
If you expand welded joint afterwards then you are risking to have a crack. The best way is to use an expander which is just expanding inner the tube sheet surface.
Selçuk Sancak I agree
Jimmy doesn't look so happy :D
grind the pills down where it hits the weld so you dont crack the weld
I call that The 123s of FRA 1472
I would have thought the plate or bulkhead or whatever would be more rigid than the thin tube wall, and if you rolled till the cows came home the tube would always spring back more than the plate and leave you with a tiny gap. Something like a cartridge case in a gun... it goes in way loose, gets hit with maybe double the force necessary to expand it out to the chamber wall, does indeed become permanently deformed, yet always contracts back enough to allow easy extraction. Or almost always, anyway.
The tube doesn't spring back. At this level of the rolling torque moment, it gets permanent deformation.
@@selcuksancak It can't have both permanent deformation AND a bit of spring-back? Googling "rolling torque moment" did not turn up any results that I could relate to this situation. I'm just trying to understand it, not be a smart-aleck.
@@Fuzzybeanerizer To expand the tube it's applied a rolling force. We call it rolling torque or rolling torque moment.
That's true. the tube spring back too. But it's mostly deformed permanently. As the tube sheet is thicker than the tube wall in this force direction then the tube sheet stays in the elastic area which means that the tube sheet is applying a constant spring force from outside of the tube which doesn't allow a gap in between the hole and the tube surface. Hope to make it clear.
@@selcuksancak In some locomotive-boiler practice, there is a circumferential recess cut and smoothed in the tubesheet, and the tube is then prossered so that metal fills this gtroove to help lock the tube against leaking when under pressure.
Are there other videos that discuss the use of copper ferrules between tube and sheet to get better heat transfer and some additional 'seal forming' when the tube is rolled? That's not common practice in commercial boilers, but can be found in other firetube practice...
@@wizlish This type of recesses are not necessarily dedicated to impermeability. They are mainly dedicated to avoiding axial displacement of the tubes resulting that their neighbor area keeping the tightness.
I bet you pressure test that itll leak!
That's what the test stand is for. Better to learn here and get a leaky tube to learn with than on the boiler with the customer waiting! Thanks for watching!
crisco
Just put the tube in and weld it and done
rbw
We. Have..so.. called..jugad..engg
Wair is wrck shup
Its dangerous to stand behind the rolling machine. Best standing on its side
If it's not welded it's going to leak
If you watch in the video around :55 he explains what is actually creating the seal. The process of rolling the tube will actually make it water tight. Thanks for the comment and thanks for watching!
James Fritz is changing the game... Better listen up, 150+ years of boiler operations...
No, it's not. A good expanded joint can handle thousands of psi.