Distro Dev tries Debian 12 // 3 Week Review
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- Опубликовано: 2 июл 2023
- This is one of the Debians of all time.
Debian is one of Linux's oldest distributions, known for it's giant repositories full of stable (although not as up to date) packages. The latest version of Debian, version 12, codenamed Bookworm, includes updated packages, and separated nonfree firmware from the rest of it's nonfree repo.
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"risiOS is better than LinuxFX" 
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I assume plasma-wayland's failure to start after installing NVidia is due to Debian's habit of sourcing KDE packages from archaeological dig sites.
Debian 12 has Plasma 5.27.x which is currently the latest Plasma release. They even specifically excluded Plasma from the freeze in order to allow 5.27 to make the way to Debian 12.
If you want bleeding edge even with kernel, don‘t use Debian stable.
Debian 12 with kernel v6.1 is a wise choice because it is a LTS version.
Choose the NET iso for installation. Prevents installation of bloatware to begin with.
Totally net install is the best, and if you need extra option's go to advanced on the first screen and select expert install.
Debian's "Expert install" is very user-friendly & bugless in my opinion
Yes the expert install is the way to go for most installs. But it is hidden away most people wouldn't know it was there.
Their website is a mess. I'm glad I'm not the only one hitting back and trying new links. I read that they added the calamares installer but gave up trying to find it and used LMDE instead. Thanks for the info.
Thank you for your criticisms! I'm a brand new Linux noob and I encountered most if not all of these problems trying to install Debian 12 on an older machine of mine. They need a UI/UX person, or a team of people, to overhaul so much. These small hiccups hurt Linux adoption so much.
I wish they made a SIG like thing that does desktop focused things, so that people could just use debian not a derivative
Great report... and.. LOVE the shirt / NIN. 😎🤙
Fyi being 2 kernels behind makes sense: 6.1 is an LTS kernel release which will get security updates for the whole debian 12 timeline of ca. 2 years. 6.2/6.3 would not.
I am a developer and just started using fedora gnome from windows it feel so great to use Linux ❤
Thanks for review, it was really unique in some way. On your final note on HW support getting worse as it gets closer to next release I thought of an argument that as long as you stick with same HW it's not an issue, but even if you buy new GPU or something you can build latest driver most likely, and also there are other newer kernels like Liquorix and xanmod.
I'm quite new to the whole Linux ecosystem, but at the end of the video you mentionned the software being old until you move to the next big Debian release, but from what I heard and understand, graphics drivers do update, and also there's the "backports" feature to update the Kernel, so... is software obsolescence really a problem?
Things will continue to work fine, but newer hardware will not be supported and you may lose out on performance enhancements on mesa, which is not a graphics driver but sort of a middle man between things like OpenGL and Vulkan to your graphics hardware. Debian does not update mesa outside bug fixes, and so having an older version of mesa means you aren’t getting the maximum performance from your hardware.
I tried Debian 12.1 KDE and my desktop crashed and restarted every minute or so (Intel HD 630 graphics). Gnome version works fine.
A geração atual chora com toda facilidade da tecnologia e progresso. O Debian está tão fácil quanto o Windows para instalar. Os jovens hoje estão desconectados da realidade, reclamam e choram de tudo. A fraqueza e insatisfação está dentro deles próprios.
4:30 this does mean the installer is modular, it can pick up new functions later in the installation process based on available software/installer parts.
Thanks for fair criticism! For experienced user all these caveats might not even be noticable, but for new user I guess it may be confusing...
I've been in the game since Slackware came out and after that I always have been using Debian. Personally I don't care about the latest packages but you are right. In 2023 things should be as easy my mother should be able to install it without issues, via a live install or otherwise. In that regard I am ashamed that distro makers arn't able to deliver that.
Kinda weird you had raspi firmware installed, i used the netinstall and didnt have that installed with my gnome debian install
I like debian installer, especialy now that option to load non-free drivers. I used to have to use a travel router to install on wifi connected computers.
wow, you're beautiful man. by the way, I haven't used arch. how outdated does debian become compared to distros like pop os or linux mint(I'm sorry if this is a dumb question)?. People like me who use ubuntu-based distro are not going to be affected in the same way compared to arch users I think. I mostly use flatpak applications.
debian doesn't get feature updates until the next stable release; just security updates. so you'll be on the same version of everything until debian 13.
4:36 Can someone explain this sudo user group thing to me?
New to Linux user, here. Installed Debian on a tertiary computer of mine (Fedora in my secondary one), and I really wanted to get into Debian but I believe this was where I ran into problems (I couldn't use sudo in the terminal). Eventually I gave up and just used my Fedora computer.
Keep the root password blank. Otherwise it doesn’t put your user in the sudoers group and you have to add it manually using “su” and than the root password.
@@PizzaLovingNerd Okay, gotcha. That's what I thought you/the person in the video said, but that just seemed so counter intuitive to me. I'll go ahead and give Debian another shot, hopefully tomorrow.
Thanks for your time and help! 🙂
thanks for that compact and useful review. i have been using debian over the past decade and can confirm most of your comments. it feels like a sun sparc station back in 2000. Rock solid, but always a bit outdated. BTW: cool hoody! 🤘NIN
Debian 12 is literally the distro I installed on my mum's computer :D Stable working environment with Flatpak for everything which required to be up-to-date is the best combination.
Interesting and informative review; thanks! If you want to review another distro from outside the Debian and Arch worlds, how about openSUSE Tumbleweed? Also, Solus has risen from the dead like a phoenix; you might want to look at Solus 4.4.
have you gotten/will you get a pinetab 2?
_they made a second one???_
I haven’t gotten one. Maybe in the future
@@PizzaLovingNerdriscv?
the problem with debian is that dpkg or apt can turns completly buggy and be impossible to repair.
im surprised nobody has made a mirror site for debian ISOs
Do I understand correctly that you MADE RisiOS?
Yes
@@PizzaLovingNerd Wow! Okay! I did not know that!
@@PizzaLovingNerd How the heck do you make a distro?
i use sparky linux kde plasma semi rolling :)
yes it is debian based and very stable :)
Netinstall is not slower than downloading the full iso since you'll be wasting way more time running updates when using the full iso.
It’s Debian, you expect a lot of updates??
@@PizzaLovingNerd no feature updates but a lot of security updates
What are your thoughts on microkernels? There's one very reliable one that I'm aware of that's actively developed, seL4. RedoxOS is an interesting OS with a microkernel written in Rust, although the classic is definitely MINIX.
Why the heck would Pi Firmware be installed? That's a bug that needs to be reported because that package shouldn't be installed on an AMD64 system
As far as the mesa drivers go, those are usually get put into backports so you can update them. I also prefer snaps to keep my software up to date.
They shouldn’t even be compiled for amd64 tbh
@@PizzaLovingNerd that true, I'm surprised that it compiled. Some weird shit is going on there.
When is hollow knight silksong coming out
first time I watch your video, and I already subscribe
p.s. devuan daedalus release waiting room
4:55 It literally says on the root password page that if you leave it empty it will make your user a sudoer. If you read it, it would have been obvious. People seem to think they can skip reading things. The problem here is you and not the installer.
It took me 20 minutes to install Debian off the netinstall image using Gnome as the default image.
You seemed to have not listened to the part of the video where I mentioned that. The issue is, when people are used to other easier installers, when they see the words "Root Password" they just aimlessly type one without reading it. That is why I pointed this out as bad ux. The problem here is you not the video.
@@PizzaLovingNerd I did listen to it. No the problem is not me, It is you! The amount of arrogance some people have (especially other developers) amazes me sometimes.
If people aimlessly type things without reading it, it really doesn't matter how good your UX is. I've seen people do this on documentation (I am a software developer) that I have written. They haven't read line number one when I have had it bolded and in red. I have seen people do this constantly with other people documentation as well, so I know it isn't just my writing style. I normally force the other dev to read and follow the process and suddenly it works as intended.
You literally said in the video "I only found this out because of some random youtube video" when the instruction was right there in front of you. YOU DID NOT read it and that is YOUR mistake. Not the Debian maintainers, not mine.
@@dave7244 This is a problem that confused many beginners and experienced users alike. A better UI would be to have a checkbox on the user creation screen that says "create root user" and than have the root password screen instead of making it something that you have to skip. This is why other distros do ui/ux testing.
It confuses them because they do not read the instructions that are clearly laid out before them. Using Linux and doing anything non-trivial with the system requires reading. That includes man pages, readme files and scripts themselves.
Also of these changes that you suggest requires modification and testing. Later on in the video you try an alternative installer, which you said didn't work correctly the first time. That because it hasn't been rigorously tested. I wonder what other issues remain that you were lucky enough to avoid.
The default installer works correctly and reliably. I've used it numerous time without issue. So which is the better installer? The one that you liked that had the UI you approved of and didn't work. Or the one that had the UI you did not approved of that works reliably? I would argue the latter every single time.
ppl that i used to listen a lot r moving to nix .. am happy with pios-lite on pi4 but there seems to be nix4pi too .. hmmm
9:20 ... for "mom" i installed mint... while i use only debian since 2000... anytime i've tried others ::: they always have some "handycap"... too unstable, too unreliable, too big, not big enough... o.O?... though i also enjoyed nixos... :) ... i do have nix installed in debian for any missing packages and the nix-shell... :) ... and i'm not fond of debian derivatives, though vanilla os seams interesting...
Nice video.
Debain has never been about hype, I've been using Debian since version 2 and hearing people say things like: "Debian hype" is surprising, but it seems to be kind of real. Somehow.
The calamares installer is the easiest that exists
Debian's installer "IS" the "traditional" installer. I can run through debian's console installer with just keyboard and blind folded. tab tab space enter tab tab space tab down and space to remove the check in gnome desktop, tab tab tab space check system utilities, tab space check openssh-server tab tab space for ok... People complaining when they are given the luxuary of a mouse during the install... pft... WE HAD TO PUSH THAT INSTALLER UP HILL BOTH WAYS IN THE SNOW BAREFOOT!
It helps that it's been the same installer for a long LONG time.
I'm interested in what Debian Testing is like to use. Perhaps three weeks would be long enough to get a sense of that--like, it says "Testing" so you know you're likely to get some hiccups, but you wouldn't want to be dealing with more than one a week.
I love Debian, Devuan slightly less, but I swear to God, the Debian website is a total mess.
You should try Xero Linux. I think that it is probably the best distro that doesn't require the user to spend a lot of time setting it up. It works great and the developer puts a lot of effort into it.
Suggestions:
1) CachyOs - User friendly Arch with optimized compiler flags..the fastest Arch Distro.
2) Clear Linux - backed by Intel. Optimized compiler flags and other tricks..the fastest Linux distro, but not as user friendly.
3) Puppy Linux. Runs as root, runs from RAM. Ugly, but lean and fast.
4) Nobara - A highly customized version of Fedora. Great for gamers, streamers, RUclipsrs.
5) Alpine Linux. Uses musl instead of glibc. Very small, yet very robust.
6) NixOS - I don't know, it's a mystery to me haha, but it's quite different.
artix and devuan for systemd haters like me
@@leonbishop7404 Alpine, MX Linux, Puppy, AntiX, Void, Gentoo..all are run with systemd by default. Peppermint has a spin based on Devuan as well.. that's all the one's I can recall, but I am sure there are more.
@@tambuchalinux true, but currently my main focus are arch and debian. just without systemd
I normally use the net-instller that seems to avoid some of the problems you have had - particularly the raspberrypi firmware one, weird! Nvida is nvida, solved by getting a graphics card from someone reputable. Anyone with a Nvida graphics card should leave Redhat alone our write "Irony_mode=on" on their forehead.
Just wondering what features you need, that you are willing to bloat the install with flatpak versions over a slow connection. If its a case of must have latest shiny .... over my slow internet connection, well think there is an irony taf for you there as well.
Debian installer seems just as mad as its always been Does the job, bootstraps the OS. If you invest in a fast Internet connection, most of your complaint vanishes.
"risiOS is better than LinuxFX"
Dude, you can always sideload or compile. Debian is unix-like
You wearing a NIN hoodie is so archetypal. No hate, just amusing.
Developer!? LOL Pronounces the "G" in gnome! Braces, needs a hair cut.....
NIX is unique, or just plain wierd
Yeah, Debian website is down right archaic 😅😂
Actually, it's confused. I'm old enough to count as archaic myself, and that website would have been bad in 1995.
Dude start using debian for your mom's computer. With sll your compkaints, Debian is rock solid and the easiest linux to support. That's why all the distros base on it.
True. But this video is a demonstration of why there need to be distros based on Debian. With greater or less success, they mitigate the problems of installing and using Debian itself. This video is aimed at the needs of the average, or beginner, desk top user, not a server administrator. And I'm glad to find that my problems with the Debian installers isn't just me.
Apt is terrible nala and dnf is great because they are Acutaly legeble…….
I never use Debian stable it's boring. I don't find the installer that hard in fact it's easy. Although I don't find Arch that hard either as I've been installing it for ages, around 12 years now, try LFS and then you'll understand hard. Anyway when I do use Debian I use the unstable branch it's still not quite Arch but it's a hell of a bit more up to date than the stable version and this actually is the branch Ubuntu started with when they built their distro
sorry to say this kid ::: but you really need to improve your "skills"... 6:12 ... because netinst is actually the better way to install debian... :) ... that is why it is the first option for download ::: as all debian user know ::: obviously, duh!... :) ... just try it ::: is really easier... :) ... and just faster and simple... :) ... netinst also is not only "for servers", as you wrongly said.
Let be video side, are you male or female ?
Hybrid ? I am confused.
@@ErosPista Obliviously they can have long hair, but his other actions are girly as well.
"Let be video side"
No. let be this topic side. Let be on-topic video.
@@preflex3502 🤗
have you always been a pig like this or only today?
No estás confundido. Eres tonto, pero no tonto por unos momentos, eres tonto para siempre.