@moif _velocita That is what many trans people call us _biological_ women. I have been called these things more than once (and from "friends") _It is derogatory and INSULTING._ It isn't just about ME, it is about treating people LIKE ME with respect.
These folk, all of these folk or just some of them perhaps even one of them? Do you think it's fair to condemn all on the basis of minority or indeed one?
@@Coelacanth1 Why don't you take a second and browse around on some LGTBQ+ forums and look at the attitudes against heterosexual people instead of trying to lecture me?
It's a good start but sports isn't the only issue here. Calling women "chest feeders" is in my opinion degragading to them. Saying that men can give birth or can have period is literally nonsense, same as saying things like there are "100 genders" or "there is no gender", that "gender is a social construct" etc. (and yes, some people do actualy say those kind of things!). All the "pronouns" stuff is pure madness too. Brainwashing kids in schools, drag shows for minors? It even got to a point that some people are saying that if you're a hetero and don't want to date trans people then you are a transphobe!! Didn't this get "a bit" too far? Especially that there is growing number of people that are trying to introduce another wild concept of "minor attracted people", you can take a wild guess what this is reffering to. Not gonna lie, I am getting fed up with this, this no longer has anything to do with "tolerance" and other buzz words that were used to introduce those things into society. I do not care if someone is feeling uncomfortable because of me saying how things are, it's not my job or not my obligation to make people comfortable and assuring them with their delusions. And I don't think that this is about saying that trans people don't exist, the issue is that we are trying to normalize gender dysphoria as something that should be celebrated and praised. If someone wants to be a trans person - fine with me. But if you try to tell me that trans women are or can be the same as women and trans men can be the same as men, it's where I draw the line.
A lot going on here so I'll focus on countering just a couple of things. To start with, drag performers and trans people are not the same thing. Drag is a medium, like film or literature. As with children's film, children's drag shows designed with child audiences in mind so are not in appropriate. The trans rights movement isn't about 'normalising gender dysphoria'. That you would say this makes me doubt you even know what gender dysphoria means, since it's resolved by the kind of things trans rights activists are fighting for.
@@MadameCorgi "To start with, drag performers and trans people are not the same thing. Drag is a medium, like film or literature. As with children's film, children's drag shows designed with child audiences in mind so are not in appropriate." You don't say? I know what the difference is, you don't need to lecture me. And still there is no scenario in which any kind of drag show would be fine for children. Period. "The trans rights movement isn't about 'normalising gender dysphoria'." A lot of "trans rights activists" would highly disagree because they don't see it as gender dysphoria to start with but rather a "choice" (and it can happen at any time!) for them to have 100 genders or have no gender at all because "this is just a social construct". And this is what THEY - those activists - are saying! So this is actually not only gender dysphoria but also (or maybe usually?) a mental issue. "That you would say this makes me doubt you even know what gender dysphoria means, since it's resolved by the kind of things trans rights activists are fighting for." Oh I think I do know what it is - "the diagnostic label gender identity disorder (GID) was used until 2013 with the release of the diagnostic manual DSM-5. The condition was renamed to remove the stigma associated with the term disorder". This is a medical condition. Literally. And removing the "disorder" part is literally normalising gender dysphoria, because if something is a disorder it's not considered as "normal", if you take the "disorder" part away, it becomes "normal" and thus - "normalised", not an issue. You don't say that dissociative identity disorder (DID) is something "normal" now do you? And people actually are being treated for it. This is why so many people having this kind of issues are more likely to have additional issues like depression. You are not helping them, you are doing a disservice to them and I think you are not even aware of it. This is why I added my first comment in the first place. My stance on this topic was neutral for a long, long time because I was being told that it's just that those people want to be left alone, that it's about tolerance and them to "be happy" like other people. But when I actually got into the topic and how things are, after seeing and hearing more and more from the actual "trans community" and activists, I couldn't be neutral anymore because this is getting way too far. Because this damages everyone, starting from the majority of society that doesn't have this kind of issues (you know, men and women?), through LGB people (yeah, more of them are getting fed up of this as well) and the trans people as well.
@@themeanmachine84 Talmud knows six genders. Many indigenous nations know even more. So evidently, gender is just a social contract. Being a transgender is never a choice, if you believe that you`re missing the point. Historically there is evidence of transgender people from Sumerian empire 5 000 b.c.e. through the ancient Egypt to greece and Roman empire. Not to mention Asia, Africa and the Americas. As far as we know everyone got along just fine until about 200 C.E. The someone wrote a book. I wonder which. They have always been here, we have just been burning them.
It's not the fact that they identify with a particular gender, it's their demands that we comply with their identification that has produced the backlash.
It’s great to change your mind. There is a radical trans activist position effectively that sex does not exist and gender identity defines male and female, man and woman. That was always a totally absurd position to take, and I’m glad concessions are being made.
No, why is this so hard to understand. Sex and gender are different things. Sex is how you look, gender is how you feel. The word trans doesn’t even make sense if sex did not exist. Is this clear one since for all?
@@isakrynell8771 It’s clear you haven’t been following the debate. Emily Bridges literally considers themself female. (Of the female sex, because of their gender identity). Most radical trans activists consider trans women literally female.
If this carries on, women will simply boycott competing, and audiences will do the same. We may even see a women-led sports authority setting up its own events. There is more anger here than with the Bud light fiasco.
@@grogcattan7596 It's not "normal" to think that someone who has been through a male puberty can fairly compete with biological females. The majority do not wish to compete with trans athletes, not because of hate but because they don't wish to be at an unfair physical disadvantage. A lot don't say anything because they'd rather not draw attention to themselves or risk their careers. The fact that various sporting bodies are now banning trans althletes from playing in the womens sports, after their initial laize-faire attitude to the situation shows that there must be huge pushback from the athletes themselves.
@@Zikar Can you name one trans woman world champion? If it's such a widespread problem there must be loads of them? Or its just people wanting to play sport?
“The middle ground is a lonely place.” Indeed. But it is clear, from numerous comments on RUclips, that there are many, many of us in the middle and it is refreshing to hear voices speaking up without vitriol or slogans to advocate for civil discussion.
Katy: "The middle ground is a lonely place". Hear hear! Katy did an outstanding job of providing context and nuance to an often brutally passionate topic which leaves no room for compromise. I take my hat off to her.
Thank you. There was enough filmed material for a series and sufficient contentious topics to be discussed with nuance rather than polarised nastiness. I hope more opportunities follow to have further dialogues away from the usual heat and hate.
Will it be civil? No. For one individuals who report being trans have higher than population levels of comorbidity for disorders which are associated with being hyper emotional, diagreeable and rigid in thought. Not exactly a good combination for civil debate and it explains why the communication tends to be unpleasant. Two. This is a belief system so no amount of logic or evidence will convince them otherwise. Indeed the entire belief system is all about rejecting facts. Do not think you can "win" a debate in a reasoned way with people who reject reason and think emotion is more important.
@@moif_velocita lol your addressing a doctoral level psychologist and researcher. Stop pretending you know anything about mental health from what your see on social media.
@@moif_velocita so far the only arguments you are providing is that if you don't agree with something, it's "right wing media", oh and call people "bigots". Not a great plan to win a discussion. But yeah, I would be really happy to teach you some basic biology which even kinds in elementary school can understand.
@@themeanmachine84 I have a gynocologist and an endocrinologist for that, but thanks for offering to share your basic understanding with me. It's cute too, that you think I care about 'winning' over you. There is nothing to win here.
Most people discuss most things in a civil manner, except for those who know their position is wrong and are arguing for personal gain - they tend to be more militant. Trans activists must surely realise their position is objectively wrong as it is unfair on women? Either they know they are wrong, or they hate women (actual women), or both.
Or perhaps they are acting in accordance with existing equality law? As regards personal gain, there is rather a lot of money that has been put up to finance the opposition to to Trans women.
So do you think that the suffregetts, and Black civil rights protesters were 'wrong' by because people advocating for those causes were not always civil?? There are people on both sides of the 'trans debate' incapable of articulating their views rationally so by your standard which side is in the wrong?
@@moraymac2922 How do you know they hate women? Have you spoken to any of them or are you imposing your personal form of logic on people you don't know?
The majority opinion about trans people is based on precisely zero knowledge, What is the total number of trans people you have met in the last 10 years ?
@NonGrata Can't help but notice you're repeating poll numbers from a well-known radical pro-trans organization with no polling accountability or peer review.
"Your effort to exclude me from sports where I might cause serious injury to women is itself an act of violence." Mental pretzels. It's refreshing to see cooler heads getting a platform and allowing them to address complicated issues without the histrionic rhetoric designed to shut down any possibility of reasoned debate. It's worth noting that certain political stances demand a condition of perpetual outrage and call for action. Without the struggle, people might realise these movements don't actually deliver on anything, being more interested in their own ideological purity than actual progress, which would require compromise and incremental change.
You obviously need help. "Violence "? How about the "violence" you are perpetrating against children? Target and others are now selling trans clothes for toddlers. Since there is not one toddler who could even understand, the parent is FORCING the toddler to be WHAT THE PARENT WANTS THEM TO BE. The parent is saying "you should have been a boy/girl and I AM FIXING IT. Save your sanctimonious Violence talk for something else.
Let's give Usain bolt Testosterone suppressants for long enough to sink his testosterone then have him compete against women sprinters....yeah, bad idea.
Much respect to Katy Jon Went and Kathleen Stock for having this conversation. This is the first time I've heard both sides being fair, rational and open to talking it through. This the only way. I hope the Oxford University protest doesn't cause too much trouble today (they've already said the protest against Dr Stocks right to talk is going to be heated) 😢. Being extremely polorised and shutting people down isn't going to help either side. I think most people want fairness for women, whilst maintaining trans right.
Perhaps you should avail yourself of what critique pertains to this apparent ' fair conversation ' for there are participants in it that have since indicated their participation was obtained by way of deceit.
The problem is what transwomen really want is validation that they are women. They want to believe they pass and are no different than actual women. This is what they mean by trans rights.
Of which is to say transwoman must be excluded from professional sport, because there just isn't the numbers to make specific transwomen professional sport viable. Honestly it does come across as if folk consider transwomen as not even human
@@Coelacanth1 no one is excluding transwomen from sports. The men leagues are open to them, instead they want to compete amongst the biological bodied females.
@@noroomforsquares4483 no I think they're going to have to have their own thing because kids follow grown people and all things and I don't want my child around a deceiving sexuality if you're a man that's born physically a man but you think you're a woman that's perfectly fine but you got to deal with that yourself I didn't cause that you were born that way if you say but what's to say that my child is born has to see that or has to go around that all sexualities besides heterosexual are an abomination and a termination of human species
Misrepresented, abused and fighting for their very lives could be another description. For perhaps you don't know the highest group suicide rate in Britain is within the Trans community where as many as 52% have attempted suicide - why because they are not accepted.
You can call yourself whatever you like, but when archaeologist find you in a years time… they will confirm with 100% accuracy either you are man or woman
Or intersex, don't forget there are tens of thousands of people born each year that are intersex. Aren't there literally millions of fossils of long extinct plants and animals whose gender can't be identified?
That is a very optimistic socially conservative view lol. Something tells me that centuries from now your views on these matters will be just as dead as the trans women in question. Kinda the fate of most social conservatism, but hey maybe you are onto something!
Exactly and how much more inclined are we to use she pronouns for someone who actually shows some respect back? The trans community needs more people like Katie because she is level headed and rationale! Huge respect to Katie 😊
@@rhysdavis5761 I will use preferred pronouns for anyone who has a level of self awareness in understanding reality. That they understand that I am using she/her pronouns to make them comfortable because they suffer from gender dysphoria & they have requested respectfully that I do so, but it’s not because they are actual women & as such they also understand women have right to assert certain boundaries. I will not use preferred pronouns under duress or for men who insist there are no differences between a trans identifying male & a woman. If there’s no self recognition of themselves as male then these people will violate all female boundaries & I will not give in to that.
Thanks. I've been open to discussion on this and platforming opposing views since 2017, so I stuck my neck out 6 years ago not just seeing which way the wind was blowing. Prior to that I ran a public gender studies group for 5 years or so where all views were up for question, respectfully. I'm trans but been questioning of reductive absolutism for 10-15 years.
The basic facts were established years ago. This has nothing to do with facts. It's about your fascist urge to be superior and therefore the only conversation you will ever have is with yourself
@@moif_velocita ITS actually hilarious that you Claim facts were established years ago .... So i guess you mean centuries ago ? Or do you mean ages ago ? Since you are an advocate of transgenders you probably mean years ago in the sense of replacing the established facts of a binary by a spectrum ... That happened years ago IMO.... But for me that is the beginning of our society denying reality on a wider spectrum ... So which facts do you really mean ?
Chance would be when they have fair representation of which they currently don't have and there is some critique over the above ' seemingly fair discussion '
@@larsbaer3508 Fair representation in the UK is about politics as in in is one politically represented, wherein you ask yourself when was the last time a pro trans politician was given a media platform to offer an alternative perspective to enable a fair voter assessment. Of course it's not just trans folk that don't possess fair representation, immigrants don't have it either and a few other groups but other groups aren't the topic of the national conversation, so technically don't need political representation at the moment, but no doubt their time might come.
It's such a shame that this clam and reasoned discussion won't make the headlines. It's only when people at extremes are at each others throats that people take an interest.
@@Northstander I am atttracted to the same sex, but don’t want to change my gender that was ‘assigned’ at birth. I don’t want to be represented together with a group which I am not a part of.
@@Northstander because from what I've read lot of LGB people are fed up that they are been dragged into this gender pronouns etc. movement. They just want to live their lives but now been included in this battle and experience lot more hate towards them.
@@willowblossom6056 It seems that this has been getting quite crazy in countries where language uses gender pronouns. That's probably most countries. Here in my country Finland because native language doesn't have gender pronouns there actually only been really talk about can transgenders join womens team such and small bit about can gender be "repaired". Last one is tough issue because hard to know who actually needs gender repair and who don't and it can't be reversed even the meds and surgical operations on genitalia makes person sterile for life. Anyway basically what we have here has been very very small compared to other countries because one attack vector, gender pronouns is completely missing.
Perhaps that would be a good idea if there were lots of trans folk in sport, but there isn't and the noise around this issue is deterring trans folk from getting involved in sport.
@@Coelacanth1 and because of that the whole world needs to comply and let women be beat the sh** by men, right? What's the point of having trans people in womens sport if they can't compete anyway?
Transgender is obviously an evolutionary dead-end. There will probably always be such individuals, but I see no reason society should be organised specifically to accommodate their preferences.
If you were to observe the ancient world you will no doubt discover the two oldest still existing religious cultures have law books pertaining to their religion/culture where if one was to examine translations of these books one might find these individuals existed then to not be rejected as is what is happening now but accommodated and accommodated in law.
Why make things hard.? Males in women;’s sports is a hill too far. But of course, revolutionaries always push the limits. People seeking power will always turn to force to get their way.
Trans women should not compete in competitive contact sports with biological women. That said, the sport issue is not something that affects many trans people daily. Basic human rights and fair treatment does
Katy is one of the most eloquent and intelligent trans campaigners I have heard speak on the subject. If we had more reasoned and intelligent voices in the debate. It won't be so toxic.
Actually it was the right wing that forced this discussion Trans people themselves had no interest in this political distraction from the economic breakdown taking place under the Conservatives
@@paulinskipukprogressive4903 they had no interest in the debate, true, they tried to maintain a no debate policy. All fine and dandy when every lunatic demand was being met. Now that is no longer the case, their demands are being repealed in sport, and the mutilation of young people is being reconsidered.
There are few people who I have so much respect to listen to and kathleen Stock, and Dr Debbie Hayton a transwoman and a teacher, Both of these two fundermentally make so much sense I fully recommend everyone to listen to Debbie she has such a healthy, rational and honest view around the issues women are facing with all this plus the fundamental importance of protecting children to it all, she is very comfortable as a trans woman but also isnt putting any demands on society to accept her as either a she or a he. A very interesting person to listen to.
Some trans women clearly see it as a social or civil rights issue to be accepted into women's sports. But as Katy rightly points out, the problem is in competitive fairness. This is also why sports have weight classes. I've always thought the solution is to measure things like muscle mass and bone density, take the conversation out of gender identity.
Or maybe we could grow up and focus on issues that actaully matter like over population, plastic pollution, and climate change instead of who gets to join in when adults play games
@@moif_velocita Or even why female athletes must endure sexism in their game for sure there is a question as to why female athletes are paid less and get less patronage deals than male athletes. But whilst the world looks at an extreme minority of trans women, the historic issues won't be addressed.
@@marisaera2353 What has changing rooms got to do with anything, ah yes I see you are one of the mind to think a minority trans person is more powerful than a majority of natal women in such a venue as if women were mice in the presence of a cat.
It is the Wolf brain neurotype. The male wolves adapt to take care of their young and females adapt to hunt. It is not that they are born with the other gender. I think the debate polarizes an issue that affects transgender neurotypes that do not want to identify this way. If people want to dress as other genders it is not really a debate. The whole legal pressure is the same question as gay people not being allowed in their own toilets. Stop being cool it is not. If people are not hurting anyone leave them alone.
The best thing about Kathleen Stock losing her job 'in hindsight' is that she can speak her opinion and truth without 'corporate guidelines, has those individuals also speak freely who oppose her opinion. Kathleen Stocks being, that you may label identify, physically add or take away from yourself anything you please, but from a 'biological' point of reference and 'only' that you are 'biologically' either male or female.
Of course the debate can be civil - but it's hard when people react THIS angrily to the existence of the debate to begin with. I understand genuine transphobes jump into this discussion, but the discussion itself is not transphobic. If people could just talk about this with cool heads, the debate itself can be totally civil, but too many trans activists come at this with rage for the discussion itself, and that attitude has to be resisted. Objective reality has been smothered by subjective feelings, and anyone who doesn't actively participate is treated with such contempt it's terrible. Stock speaking at Oxford should not be this controversial. Supposedly enlightened, liberal young people are reacting to this like old narrow-minded religious zealots, with zero self awareness.
They get so angry because even questioning their identity causes their bubble of delusion to pop and the fantasy that they are a woman is ruined. Most transwomen think they "pass" but do not. Hearing the truth is obviously deeply hurtful and they react very badly.
How civil can a debate be when one side is effectively making the false argument that black skin is thicker therefore they can't feel pain the same way as white people? The solution to trans women in sports is to allow them to compete with women, but to have a co-medalist and/or asterisk protocol. Everyone gets to compete, winners are recognized, nobody loses out. The alternative is to require that trans men compete with cis women, which is objectively less fair than the original proposition.
That is some thing I push for all the time "Be Civil" there are horrible, angary, short tempered people on both sides and they react to false information. My message for every one is and this for every one even those not involved in the topic 1. Get accurate information about what others are saying about you 2. Don't insult people 3. Don't do crimes 4. Don't use language designed to shut people up 5. don't use fear and guilt 6. Stop harassing people 7. Don't push recruitment 8. All opinions are valid 9. every thing people tell you ARE facts no body spreads lies 10. and use vocabulary that sounds like you agree with the other person. Its also important to flat out state what you want. and bust or confirm the myths
This debate can NEVER be "civil," just like the difference between Donald Trump and the Joe & Hunter Biden debate can never be 'civil.' They're just too far apart.
The other thing that you people do not realize is that I'm being calm about all this but someone will surely attack me nicely just to prove their endless propaganda 🎉
The society will never surrender, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the internet, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender. 😁 Greatings to Sir Winston Churchill
It can, but one side doesnt even recognize the other, and the othet side literally barks as a result.... Hard to find a common ground when people act like this.....
It's not trans people writing books about erasing cis people - as Stock has done. There is only one side talking about taking away rights, and it isn't trans people
These are great conversations to have. It's hard to do in the heat of a raging political culture war where trans women in sports are used as a motte argument to rope in bigotry.
I think the middleground position is held by most people so it's likely not as lonely as she made it out to be. It's just the media trying to make interesting and heated interviews. If someone has an advantage in a competition, it becomes not very fun to watch or compete in. And at the same time people should be able to make themselves feel comfortable in their own body and life. What we need to realize also though is that it is not a human right to compete in the olympics, or the champions league. in fact most people have been dealt a hand at birth that excludes them from the top tier of sports, that's just what it is.
I beleive trans should be kept separate from heterosexual people i want my kids whom i take responsibility for to not be deceived and either way its not for any but what I want my child to grow up to be to even be around for talking about something like shopping or going somewhere I'm not going to tell them that they can't be there but schools and where kids are. these people will eventually invade into these areas
Men, yes men shouldn’t be competing with woman! Except in say ‘chess’ where the playing field is perfectly even. To think differently is literally insane….
Being a woman or being a man has historically been based on biology, and for good reason. That's the ONLY useful way to think about it. For what would it mean, then, to be a woman if not based on sex? Based on gender roles? But that would only be perpetuating gender stereotypes. Gender roles are social constructs that people have created to organize the two sexes. A lot of these were based on sexist, patriarchal reasons. These gender roles would often put women second to men. So again, if trans women are not women biologically, in what way are they a woman? It's obvious that it is based on gender roles which have often been used to limit women's potential.
In most parts of the world we came to accept same sex relationships and that must have been by open debate leading to understanding those relationships as natural. Nobody wants to talk about trans peoples needs and desires with regard to relationships so we don't get anywhere. It's as if trans people don't exist in those terms.
What do you mean _“can the debate be civil”?_ By asking that question you’ve already lost. There is no debate because… (dramatic pause) …SEXUAL REPRODUCTION IS NOT A DEBATABLE POINT! Stop treating it as though it’s something we need to get to the bottom of. It’s not a problem, because it doesn’t exist. Even the wokest of woke have ceded the point there’s a distinction between gender and biological sex. From there, all they have left is defining gender. Which in the end reveals they’re conflating “gender” with personality.
This is such a weird and absurd discussion. With much respect to Katy Jon West, I have to disagree. Even with the dearth of studies on transgender athletes, the studies we do have so far present at least trans female athletes don't have much of an advantage over cisgender women, which makes sense when one has to think about it. The drugs they take and surgeries they do to transition makes drastic changes to the body, and any supposed 'biological advantage' they might have had as a male is counteracted by the drugs and surgeries. And this only applies to adults, because children shouldn't be getting drugs and surgery outside of hormone blockers once they are a teenager. I am also confused by Stock's answer. Granted, this is based in the UK, so might be them not personally experiencing it, but in the US: the GOP has made it blatant that they are trying to stip LGBT people of their rights and create new regulations and policies designed to stamp out LGBTQ identity in the name of "Protecting the children", echoing the Gay Panic of yesteryear. It just comes across as tone-deaf calling for civility. I also don't understand the notion of trans rights conflicting with legal protections for biological sex and female sex. We already have ample examples of trans-rights not interfering with women's rights, and vice-versa in the Western World. Stock still has that mindset that rights is a zero sum game, and that mindset would hurt both LGBT and women's rights in the long term.
Frankly, I find this whole position quite tedious. There is an assumption of entitlement here masquerading as reasonable conversation. Why do so many people feel entitled to debate the nature of another person's existence? Every time I hear people talking about women's sport, I have to wonder if they ever cared about it prior to their discovery of trans women. The fact that no one complains about trans men competing in men's sports suggests to me this is simply sexism. Do they not have a 'competitive advantage', and if not why not? Because this really smacks of the assumption that men are always more physically powerful than women. It's a very traditional assumption that I thought we had disposed of back in the 80s. Finally, it's sport, not a hugely important thing in the grand scheme of humanity. Not the greatest position to be exclusionary from while claiming a fig leaf of 'reasonable discussion'. It's only lonely in the middle when you insist on making excuses for those clinging to the out dated
ofc they cared about it that is why more woman's sport is being shown on tv, more woman refs, more woman pundits in sport. Where have you been hiding the last several years? No one complains about woman in men's sport because there is no physical advantage and very little participation... Sport is also hugely important, have you literally been living in a cave your whole life?
@@Sidecontrol1234 You're telling on yourself. I'm sure there are women athletes who do care, as well as those who don't. I'm saying that sports are a pastime. Men, women, horse racing even. It's entertainment. Yes, that is not unimportant, but it doesn't rank with food, shelter, education, healthcare, and justice. *You* consider women's sport to be important. Not being a sport fanatic isn't 'living under a rock'
No, they are groomers and I will never accept this. They want to create more of them. I will never respect them or call them whatever pronouns they can come up with.
They are not groomers any more than you are Most real-life groomers, like Jeffrey Epstein and co. are right wingers or wealthy establishment figures Show me one single example of the conviction of a trans person for grooming or anything related to it
Most of them are just trying to survive Chris. I'm sure there are some dumb/criminal trans people with twisted ideas and ill intent, much like yourself, but most of them are just making ends meet in a dangerous world. Read any scientific paper with demo stats and you will see they are by far the most vulnerable group in any society. From poverty, homelessness, illness and suicide to being murdered. No one in their right mind wishes that upon anyone.
@@jeremymanson1781 there are different groups who call themselves trans and one group certainly does target kids for so called "acceptance" and see their role as turning kids. Thats on record. This week it was reported that a hospital in Birmingham is asking parents if their newborns are non-binary "thems". Munchhausen by proxy.
People are upset because this isn’t theoretical for them. It effects everything in there life. A trans women who has practiced every day and dreams of becoming a professional athlete. Will have that dream completely crushed. A trans woman who has trained all her life and is a professional athlete will have their career completely ruined. It’s not at all strange that people are upset.
@@animec-dramaskpop6362 I agree. so can we move forward and let science and research guide our way to allow both sis and trans women a fair chance. So far science and research favours allowing most trans women to participate.
What I will never understand is why some people allow anti trans hate to consume their lives. I understand why trans people care about trans issues, but so many online who are not trans become obsessed with trans issues and it is all they post/think about, to the point where it alienates them from their friends and family in the real world. Graham Linehan cones to mind but there are hundreds or thousands like him.
@@derrickknight7164 the vast majority of everybody will agree that sex cannot be changed. That includes Trans activists, anti trans activists and people who don’t know what a transgender person is. If you espouse any viewpoint strongly there will be people online who disagree and call you names. Heck there are even people who believe the earth is flat on the Internet
@Danger Jim Because it's like this, folk are using sex and gender interchangeably as if they were the same when they're not the same. And of course transgender is about gender, not sex.
@@DangerJim-vq5uh the society we live in, which makes up our day to day realities, has created gender roles and they are very real. An individual can adapt to that socially constructed reality any way they like. This includes living a different gender than was applied at birth.
Is it uncivil to call anorexia a social contagion? Not everyone agrees with Gender Theory's idea that people are born in the wrong body. It has been well established that teenage girls are a very vulnerable group when it comes to social contagions, and wouldn't you know it, ROGD is exactly that. You are allowed to disagree with this, and I'm allowed to disagree with you that people are "born in the wrong body". And neither of us needs to be branded "uncivil" or not serious. How about just accept not everyone thinks about gender and the explosion in numbers of (autistic, same-s* attracted, foster care, gender non conforming) girls presenting at clinics the same way you do?
@@L_Martin First off the concept of being born in the wrong body was actually coined by a gender specialist Dr John Money in the 1960's for that concept to both seized upon by the media and would be trans folk alike since, the latter because it was a medically tested way to access the treatment the individual desired. Secondly ROGD is a new concept of which has not yet been recognised by all the major psychiatric bodies for them to be discouraging of it's application until the concept has been thoroughly tested. But interesting you mention autism of which some unfairly refer to as narcissism when it concerns transwomen, where what would folk think when they learned there was an overlap between autism and transgenderism, would they consider transwomen more kindly or is it some disabled people may be better cared for whilst others not? Better discussion could be had if folk just dialled down the nastiness, for of course when folk are throwing insults at each other all we can expect is misery and fractured societies and I do think it's for those with the power to dial it down.
@@L_Martin People don't proudly identify as anorexic, they typically see it as bad & not part of their essential identity. So obviously it is not uncivil in the same way, but I don't think it's a good analogy for anorexia either anyway. How does anorexia spread, is it like a virus from person-to-person contact or is it more through looking at images in the media ? ~In my experience & from what I have heard it's not like a contagion at all, & neither is gender fluidity. But if you disagree, by all means, try to explain how similar you think it is.
@@candidbowyer4625 "is it like a virus from person-to-person contact or is it more through looking at images in the media ?" I think you're confusing what is meant by social contagion. This takes place in friendship groups of teenage girls, or larger groupings e.g. a girls' school. EDs, cutting, even fainting spells, hysteria as in the case of the Salem Witch Trials. There is a long well-established basis in medical literature of teenage girls especially being incredibly susceptible to the pressures within their social group, and by "pressures" I mean it is trendy to do x. How else can you explain the explosion in numbers of the ROGD cohort? At the Tavistock clinic in the UK, the numbers of girls presenting exploded, in less than a decade there was a 1,460% increase in referrals of boys and a 5,337% increase in girls. Do you grasp how insane that number is? If there was a 5,000% increase of girls being diagnosed with some other illness in the span of 10 years, and there was not a concordant increase among older women, wouldn't that make you wonder why teenage girls are the specific cohort who are showing up at the clinic self-diagnosing as being 'born in the wrong body'? And also btw 3 members of their friendship group just so happen to also feel the same way? Doesn't any of this sound strange to you? Why aren't women in their 50s, 60s, 70s presenting at gender clinics in these numbers? Wouldn't you expect to see a spread of distribution as we see in same-s* attraction? The over representation of autistic females, and girls who have been in foster care (higher likelihood of childhood SA), and girls who are same-s* attracted - this has all been shown in Hannah Barnes's book "Time to Think". This is a cohort who are highly vulnerable to social influence by peers, as well as social media, in a way other segments of the population are not.
I think the problem is valuing gender segregation in sport. We’re putting together leagues of lesser athletes and then falling all over ourselves to pretend it’s interesting for the sake of “equity.” How many male athletes did Serena Williams out-earn that she could barely have kept up with on her best day, all because we’re obsessed with finding out who is the best among a sub-set of worse athletes? Eliminate gender classes in sport, let skill determine success, and the problem with trans athletes in sport goes away.
I think that you are failing to understand that there is more to sport than being the best in the world. We have segregation in sport on various terms for various reasons. One of them is that people who might not be one of the elite minority of the human species might still want to enjoy sport. The local pub football team have no chance of beating Premier League professionals. It would be pointless and humiliating for them to try. But they can compete against other pub teams and have fun. Eliminate sex segregation in sport and you eliminate women's sport.
What I’m failing to understand why that’s a problem. Like with your pub team example, it doesn’t mean women by and large can’t still enjoy sport. Tbh, there’s really only one instance (at least from the American perspective) where we should care about the integrity of women’s sport, and that’s the college level, because scholarship opportunities is an equal access concern for higher education. Other than that, it all smacks of entitlement, and it grows out of thinking college sports is anything other than a a platform to promote equal access.
@@altortugas5979 What is the "entitlement" you're referring to? That women feel entitled to enter a competition they have a chance of winning? You seem to be proposing that women can "enjoy" sport so long as they understand that if a guy wants to show up and take the prize, his win is all that matters. That doesn't sound like enjoyment to me.
@@altortugas5979 the only entitlement |I can see here is your over-inflated male entitlement, that would happily relegate all women to the also-ran category. Believe it or not, we women are not just smaller, less strong males. We are a sex in our own right and have the right to our own spaces, services and sports, free from males however they identify.
If this is what passes for debate in the Uk now - several people all agreeing with each other - then it's no wonder that country is going down the toilet
The group of those who are AGPs don't inspire me much tbh and straight males getting a thrill that way while forcing their way into women & girl's spaces is not what I'd call beautiful.
@@oliviamaynard9372 Yes there used to be a name for them, it was transvestites. Did all the transvestites magically disappear? No, they are under the "umbrella" now. Are you seriously under the impression most trans women like yourself are attracted to men? AKA "hsts"? Most males who identify as "trans women" are attracted to women. AKA straight males. Also known as AGPs.
Mother Nature uses many forms of reproduction, Fish in rivers are know to change Sex, Hermaphrodites have been known about in the human world for time beyond memory But The Bone Structure of Male Female, Ask a female Engineer, let her describe, Bone structure, Leverage lengths, Height to weight ratio I loved to play Squash(google it)one of my best mates kept refusing to play a set, She finally agreed and wiped the floor with me, She was a county/national level player, I'm a bloke I've beaten loads of times, I have learnt Get up, Or the beating will be worse, So I regret a female being denied her achievement in life because of a, Soul that cheats
As long as these folks call me a "bleeder", "chest feeder" and "birther" I won't respect them AT ALL. You get what you give out.
Sorry - but who are you and how is this about you?
@moif _velocita
Who's asking?
@moif _velocita
That is what many trans people call us _biological_ women. I have been called these things more than once (and from "friends") _It is derogatory and INSULTING._
It isn't just about ME, it is about treating people LIKE ME with respect.
These folk, all of these folk or just some of them perhaps even one of them? Do you think it's fair to condemn all on the basis of minority or indeed one?
@@Coelacanth1
Why don't you take a second and browse around on some LGTBQ+ forums and look at the attitudes against heterosexual people instead of trying to lecture me?
It's a good start but sports isn't the only issue here.
Calling women "chest feeders" is in my opinion degragading to them. Saying that men can give birth or can have period is literally nonsense, same as saying things like there are "100 genders" or "there is no gender", that "gender is a social construct" etc. (and yes, some people do actualy say those kind of things!). All the "pronouns" stuff is pure madness too. Brainwashing kids in schools, drag shows for minors? It even got to a point that some people are saying that if you're a hetero and don't want to date trans people then you are a transphobe!! Didn't this get "a bit" too far? Especially that there is growing number of people that are trying to introduce another wild concept of "minor attracted people", you can take a wild guess what this is reffering to. Not gonna lie, I am getting fed up with this, this no longer has anything to do with "tolerance" and other buzz words that were used to introduce those things into society.
I do not care if someone is feeling uncomfortable because of me saying how things are, it's not my job or not my obligation to make people comfortable and assuring them with their delusions. And I don't think that this is about saying that trans people don't exist, the issue is that we are trying to normalize gender dysphoria as something that should be celebrated and praised.
If someone wants to be a trans person - fine with me. But if you try to tell me that trans women are or can be the same as women and trans men can be the same as men, it's where I draw the line.
Hi - Trans rights activist here - I have never heard any one *ever* use the term 'chest feeder' except right wing propaganda merchants, and you
A lot going on here so I'll focus on countering just a couple of things. To start with, drag performers and trans people are not the same thing. Drag is a medium, like film or literature. As with children's film, children's drag shows designed with child audiences in mind so are not in appropriate. The trans rights movement isn't about 'normalising gender dysphoria'. That you would say this makes me doubt you even know what gender dysphoria means, since it's resolved by the kind of things trans rights activists are fighting for.
@@MadameCorgi "To start with, drag performers and trans people are not the same thing. Drag is a medium, like film or literature. As with children's film, children's drag shows designed with child audiences in mind so are not in appropriate."
You don't say? I know what the difference is, you don't need to lecture me. And still there is no scenario in which any kind of drag show would be fine for children. Period.
"The trans rights movement isn't about 'normalising gender dysphoria'."
A lot of "trans rights activists" would highly disagree because they don't see it as gender dysphoria to start with but rather a "choice" (and it can happen at any time!) for them to have 100 genders or have no gender at all because "this is just a social construct". And this is what THEY - those activists - are saying! So this is actually not only gender dysphoria but also (or maybe usually?) a mental issue.
"That you would say this makes me doubt you even know what gender dysphoria means, since it's resolved by the kind of things trans rights activists are fighting for."
Oh I think I do know what it is - "the diagnostic label gender identity disorder (GID) was used until 2013 with the release of the diagnostic manual DSM-5. The condition was renamed to remove the stigma associated with the term disorder".
This is a medical condition. Literally. And removing the "disorder" part is literally normalising gender dysphoria, because if something is a disorder it's not considered as "normal", if you take the "disorder" part away, it becomes "normal" and thus - "normalised", not an issue. You don't say that dissociative identity disorder (DID) is something "normal" now do you? And people actually are being treated for it. This is why so many people having this kind of issues are more likely to have additional issues like depression. You are not helping them, you are doing a disservice to them and I think you are not even aware of it.
This is why I added my first comment in the first place. My stance on this topic was neutral for a long, long time because I was being told that it's just that those people want to be left alone, that it's about tolerance and them to "be happy" like other people. But when I actually got into the topic and how things are, after seeing and hearing more and more from the actual "trans community" and activists, I couldn't be neutral anymore because this is getting way too far. Because this damages everyone, starting from the majority of society that doesn't have this kind of issues (you know, men and women?), through LGB people (yeah, more of them are getting fed up of this as well) and the trans people as well.
@@themeanmachine84 Talmud knows six genders. Many indigenous nations know even more. So evidently, gender is just a social contract. Being a transgender is never a choice, if you believe that you`re missing the point.
Historically there is evidence of transgender people from Sumerian empire 5 000 b.c.e. through the ancient Egypt to greece and Roman empire. Not to mention Asia, Africa and the Americas. As far as we know everyone got along just fine until about 200 C.E. The someone wrote a book. I wonder which.
They have always been here, we have just been burning them.
It's not the fact that they identify with a particular gender, it's their demands that we comply with their identification that has produced the backlash.
Yeah - how dare 'they' wish to be treated as equals
@@moif_velocita No, it's that SOME of them wish to be treated as what they are not - namely biological women.
@Danger Jim which requires being treated as equals
@Danger Jim And I'm sure you can point to all the books and articles written by trans people demanding that, right?
@Willing Participant Not really, no. All we actually require is you leave us alone and stop pretending that your violence is our fault
It’s great to change your mind. There is a radical trans activist position effectively that sex does not exist and gender identity defines male and female, man and woman. That was always a totally absurd position to take, and I’m glad concessions are being made.
Yes, and all 17 of them are silly. The vast majority of sane people recognize that sex isn't a binary and is a separate phenomenon to gender.
No trans people deny sex exists you idiot.
No, why is this so hard to understand. Sex and gender are different things. Sex is how you look, gender is how you feel. The word trans doesn’t even make sense if sex did not exist. Is this clear one since for all?
@@isakrynell8771 It’s clear you haven’t been following the debate. Emily Bridges literally considers themself female. (Of the female sex, because of their gender identity). Most radical trans activists consider trans women literally female.
@@isakrynell8771 so Trans Women are not Women, glad we are on the same page
If this carries on, women will simply boycott competing, and audiences will do the same.
We may even see a women-led sports authority setting up its own events.
There is more anger here than with the Bud light fiasco.
Yes it would be preferential if the trans-exclusionary minority excluded themselves from sports and left normal people alone.
@@grogcattan7596
Exactly.
@@grogcattan7596 Do you honestly not see how zealously narrow-minded and self obsessed this comment is?
@@grogcattan7596 It's not "normal" to think that someone who has been through a male puberty can fairly compete with biological females.
The majority do not wish to compete with trans athletes, not because of hate but because they don't wish to be at an unfair physical disadvantage. A lot don't say anything because they'd rather not draw attention to themselves or risk their careers.
The fact that various sporting bodies are now banning trans althletes from playing in the womens sports, after their initial laize-faire attitude to the situation shows that there must be huge pushback from the athletes themselves.
@@Zikar Can you name one trans woman world champion? If it's such a widespread problem there must be loads of them? Or its just people wanting to play sport?
First time I ever heard a reasonable trans activist.
“The middle ground is a lonely place.” Indeed. But it is clear, from numerous comments on RUclips, that there are many, many of us in the middle and it is refreshing to hear voices speaking up without vitriol or slogans to advocate for civil discussion.
Katy: "The middle ground is a lonely place". Hear hear! Katy did an outstanding job of providing context and nuance to an often brutally passionate topic which leaves no room for compromise. I take my hat off to her.
Thank you. There was enough filmed material for a series and sufficient contentious topics to be discussed with nuance rather than polarised nastiness. I hope more opportunities follow to have further dialogues away from the usual heat and hate.
Will it be civil? No. For one individuals who report being trans have higher than population levels of comorbidity for disorders which are associated with being hyper emotional, diagreeable and rigid in thought. Not exactly a good combination for civil debate and it explains why the communication tends to be unpleasant. Two. This is a belief system so no amount of logic or evidence will convince them otherwise. Indeed the entire belief system is all about rejecting facts. Do not think you can "win" a debate in a reasoned way with people who reject reason and think emotion is more important.
Stop pretending you have any idea about the subject beyond what you read in the right wing media
@@moif_velocita lol your addressing a doctoral level psychologist and researcher. Stop pretending you know anything about mental health from what your see on social media.
Spot on!
@@moif_velocita so far the only arguments you are providing is that if you don't agree with something, it's "right wing media", oh and call people "bigots". Not a great plan to win a discussion. But yeah, I would be really happy to teach you some basic biology which even kinds in elementary school can understand.
@@themeanmachine84 I have a gynocologist and an endocrinologist for that, but thanks for offering to share your basic understanding with me.
It's cute too, that you think I care about 'winning' over you. There is nothing to win here.
Most people discuss most things in a civil manner, except for those who know their position is wrong and are arguing for personal gain - they tend to be more militant.
Trans activists must surely realise their position is objectively wrong as it is unfair on women?
Either they know they are wrong, or they hate women (actual women), or both.
Or perhaps they are acting in accordance with existing equality law? As regards personal gain, there is rather a lot of money that has been put up to finance the opposition to to Trans women.
So do you think that the suffregetts, and Black civil rights protesters were 'wrong' by because people advocating for those causes were not always civil??
There are people on both sides of the 'trans debate' incapable of articulating their views rationally so by your standard which side is in the wrong?
It’s both. They know they are wrong AND they hate women.
@@moraymac2922 How do you know they hate women? Have you spoken to any of them or are you imposing your personal form of logic on people you don't know?
Man interviewed remembers he is still male despite a name change 😮
I have a lot of respect for Kathleen Stock. She represents the majority opinion.
I hope so 😕
The majority opinion about trans people is based on precisely zero knowledge,
What is the total number of trans people you have met in the last 10 years ?
@@paulinskipukprogressive4903 You don't need knowledge when you have prejudice and ignorant bigotry!
@NonGrata Can't help but notice you're repeating poll numbers from a well-known radical pro-trans organization with no polling accountability or peer review.
@@paulinskipukprogressive4903 ok good, so we agree that society shouldn't be completely rewritten for an insignificant minority then?
"Your effort to exclude me from sports where I might cause serious injury to women is itself an act of violence."
Mental pretzels.
It's refreshing to see cooler heads getting a platform and allowing them to address complicated issues without the histrionic rhetoric designed to shut down any possibility of reasoned debate.
It's worth noting that certain political stances demand a condition of perpetual outrage and call for action. Without the struggle, people might realise these movements don't actually deliver on anything, being more interested in their own ideological purity than actual progress, which would require compromise and incremental change.
You obviously need help. "Violence "? How about the "violence" you are perpetrating against children? Target and others are now selling trans clothes for toddlers. Since there is not one toddler who could even understand, the parent is FORCING the toddler to be WHAT THE PARENT WANTS THEM TO BE. The parent is saying "you should have been a boy/girl and I AM FIXING IT. Save your sanctimonious Violence talk for something else.
Let's give Usain bolt Testosterone suppressants for long enough to sink his testosterone then have him compete against women sprinters....yeah, bad idea.
Indeed for genetic advantage is never considered in male sport
Much respect to Katy Jon Went and Kathleen Stock for having this conversation. This is the first time I've heard both sides being fair, rational and open to talking it through. This the only way. I hope the Oxford University protest doesn't cause too much trouble today (they've already said the protest against Dr Stocks right to talk is going to be heated) 😢. Being extremely polorised and shutting people down isn't going to help either side. I think most people want fairness for women, whilst maintaining trans right.
'both sides' 🤣💦
Perhaps you should avail yourself of what critique pertains to this apparent ' fair conversation ' for there are participants in it that have since indicated their participation was obtained by way of deceit.
@@Coelacanth1 can you provide this?
The problem is what transwomen really want is validation that they are women. They want to believe they pass and are no different than actual women. This is what they mean by trans rights.
@@Bakeroo An article in pink news has said this
Two sides…..opinions and feelings vs verifiable facts and ethics
And science backs trans people's human rights
Ethics must be based fair evidence else it's just prejudice.
@@Coelacanth1 and they are, it's called science, like biology and psychology.
Transwomen need their own sports.
Of which is to say transwoman must be excluded from professional sport, because there just isn't the numbers to make specific transwomen professional sport viable.
Honestly it does come across as if folk consider transwomen as not even human
@@Coelacanth1 no one is excluding transwomen from sports. The men leagues are open to them, instead they want to compete amongst the biological bodied females.
Also, it would still be men vs. men.
They can compete in the men's category.
@@noroomforsquares4483 no I think they're going to have to have their own thing because kids follow grown people and all things and I don't want my child around a deceiving sexuality if you're a man that's born physically a man but you think you're a woman that's perfectly fine but you got to deal with that yourself I didn't cause that you were born that way if you say but what's to say that my child is born has to see that or has to go around that all sexualities besides heterosexual are an abomination and a termination of human species
No - because Trans are so defensive, aggressive, odd ball and wrong.
blimey m8! they're all bonkers, they are....
Misrepresented, abused and fighting for their very lives could be another description. For perhaps you don't know the highest group suicide rate in Britain is within the Trans community where as many as 52% have attempted suicide - why because they are not accepted.
Isn't it nice to have these issues discussed by respectful adults, without violence & hyperbole.
Good on you Katy for standing up for common sense
You can call yourself whatever you like, but when archaeologist find you in a years time… they will confirm with 100% accuracy either you are man or woman
Or intersex, don't forget there are tens of thousands of people born each year that are intersex. Aren't there literally millions of fossils of long extinct plants and animals whose gender can't be identified?
Yep..👍
That is a very optimistic socially conservative view lol. Something tells me that centuries from now your views on these matters will be just as dead as the trans women in question. Kinda the fate of most social conservatism, but hey maybe you are onto something!
nah they'll go "😮 o my god a skellington"
No they won't. 20% of human remains unearthed by archeologists are classed as ambiguous
Well done Katy -
Finally we hear from somebody who knows what they are talking about
Well done Times Radio, this is more like it
Biological science is fact, end of discussion!
Biological science isn't static.
Are you a biologist David?
@@MadameCorgi Hello MC, Yes, but what is really needed is an understanding of the psychology of cult appeal, especially among the young.
@@boscinet Absolutely. This trans mania is a cult, a religious faith, an ideology.
Sports should be based on sex not gender … if you have male puberty and hormones - you compete in the male categories
Respect to Katie. She’s willing to change her mind based on reasoning & debate.
Exactly and how much more inclined are we to use she pronouns for someone who actually shows some respect back? The trans community needs more people like Katie because she is level headed and rationale! Huge respect to Katie 😊
@@rhysdavis5761 I will use preferred pronouns for anyone who has a level of self awareness in understanding reality. That they understand that I am using she/her pronouns to make them comfortable because they suffer from gender dysphoria & they have requested respectfully that I do so, but it’s not because they are actual women & as such they also understand women have right to assert certain boundaries. I will not use preferred pronouns under duress or for men who insist there are no differences between a trans identifying male & a woman. If there’s no self recognition of themselves as male then these people will violate all female boundaries & I will not give in to that.
No, he's "willing" to change his mind because he sees which way the winds are blowing.
Thanks. I've been open to discussion on this and platforming opposing views since 2017, so I stuck my neck out 6 years ago not just seeing which way the wind was blowing. Prior to that I ran a public gender studies group for 5 years or so where all views were up for question, respectfully. I'm trans but been questioning of reductive absolutism for 10-15 years.
AS soon AS the transgenders and advocates acknowledge Basic facts .... WE can start having a conversation again
The basic facts were established years ago. This has nothing to do with facts. It's about your fascist urge to be superior and therefore the only conversation you will ever have is with yourself
@@moif_velocita ITS actually hilarious that you Claim facts were established years ago .... So i guess you mean centuries ago ? Or do you mean ages ago ?
Since you are an advocate of transgenders you probably mean years ago in the sense of replacing the established facts of a binary by a spectrum ... That happened years ago IMO.... But for me that is the beginning of our society denying reality on a wider spectrum ... So which facts do you really mean ?
Chance would be when they have fair representation of which they currently don't have and there is some critique over the above ' seemingly fair discussion '
@@Coelacanth1 what do you mean fair representation ? I didnt see any "trad family months" coming my way...
@@larsbaer3508 Fair representation in the UK is about politics as in in is one politically represented, wherein you ask yourself when was the last time a pro trans politician was given a media platform to offer an alternative perspective to enable a fair voter assessment.
Of course it's not just trans folk that don't possess fair representation, immigrants don't have it either and a few other groups but other groups aren't the topic of the national conversation, so technically don't need political representation at the moment, but no doubt their time might come.
It's such a shame that this clam and reasoned discussion won't make the headlines. It's only when people at extremes are at each others throats that people take an interest.
Please split LGBTI into LGB and TI.
Why?
@@Northstander I am atttracted to the same sex, but don’t want to change my gender that was ‘assigned’ at birth. I don’t want to be represented together with a group which I am not a part of.
@@Northstander because from what I've read lot of LGB people are fed up that they are been dragged into this gender pronouns etc. movement. They just want to live their lives but now been included in this battle and experience lot more hate towards them.
They've added 2S to lgbtqia+ in Canada now. Soon it will be the whole alphabet, followed by by all Roman numerals. Can't wait til they add semaphore.
@@willowblossom6056 It seems that this has been getting quite crazy in countries where language uses gender pronouns. That's probably most countries. Here in my country Finland because native language doesn't have gender pronouns there actually only been really talk about can transgenders join womens team such and small bit about can gender be "repaired". Last one is tough issue because hard to know who actually needs gender repair and who don't and it can't be reversed even the meds and surgical operations on genitalia makes person sterile for life. Anyway basically what we have here has been very very small compared to other countries because one attack vector, gender pronouns is completely missing.
Create a separate category. for male, female, trans etc...
The argument trans folk have against that is that it ‘others’ them, but they see themselves as that identified sex.
Perhaps that would be a good idea if there were lots of trans folk in sport, but there isn't and the noise around this issue is deterring trans folk from getting involved in sport.
How about two categories: Women's and Open. Job done!
@@Coelacanth1 and because of that the whole world needs to comply and let women be beat the sh** by men, right? What's the point of having trans people in womens sport if they can't compete anyway?
Transgender is obviously an evolutionary dead-end. There will probably always be such individuals, but I see no reason society should be organised specifically to accommodate their preferences.
If you were to observe the ancient world you will no doubt discover the two oldest still existing religious cultures have law books pertaining to their religion/culture where if one was to examine translations of these books one might find these individuals existed then to not be rejected as is what is happening now but accommodated and accommodated in law.
Why make things hard.? Males in women;’s sports is a hill too far. But of course, revolutionaries always push the limits. People seeking power will always turn to force to get their way.
Thank you for your balanced and calm voices Katie and Kathleen
Trans women should not compete in competitive contact sports with biological women.
That said, the sport issue is not something that affects many trans people daily. Basic human rights and fair treatment does
Katy is one of the most eloquent and intelligent trans campaigners I have heard speak on the subject. If we had more reasoned and intelligent voices in the debate. It won't be so toxic.
You can not be anything you set your mind to
I dont care abot their feelings, their narcistic beliefs dragged us all into this mess
Yes, this is how I also feel about narcissistic crybullies like Dr Stock.
Actually it was the right wing that forced this discussion
Trans people themselves had no interest in this political distraction from the economic breakdown taking place under the Conservatives
@@paulinskipukprogressive4903 they had no interest in the debate, true, they tried to maintain a no debate policy.
All fine and dandy when every lunatic demand was being met.
Now that is no longer the case, their demands are being repealed in sport, and the mutilation of young people is being reconsidered.
@@grogcattan7596 you have of course read her book
How about a bit of respect for others...live and let live?
Kathleen is a power house. Her book is sensational. I am reading it again.
NEVER EVER !!
You're doing it right now bro
Stop crying
Some people are gay, some people are trans, some people are heterosexual
It’s just a fact of life
@Kenneth Lydall thats what I said little buddy !
Insane to me that there is a “trans debate.” This is what feels right to these people. Leave them be. Crazy. Its 2023. My god
There are few people who I have so much respect to listen to and kathleen Stock, and Dr Debbie Hayton a transwoman and a teacher, Both of these two fundermentally make so much sense I fully recommend everyone to listen to Debbie she has such a healthy, rational and honest view around the issues women are facing with all this plus the fundamental importance of protecting children to it all, she is very comfortable as a trans woman but also isnt putting any demands on society to accept her as either a she or a he. A very interesting person to listen to.
What "debate"?The debate that when you pop out youre either one of two possible outcomes?
Some trans women clearly see it as a social or civil rights issue to be accepted into women's sports. But as Katy rightly points out, the problem is in competitive fairness. This is also why sports have weight classes. I've always thought the solution is to measure things like muscle mass and bone density, take the conversation out of gender identity.
Or maybe we could grow up and focus on issues that actaully matter like over population, plastic pollution, and climate change instead of who gets to join in when adults play games
@@moif_velocita I think you're the one who needs to grow up. Especially if you don't see this as a legit issue.
@@moif_velocita Or even why female athletes must endure sexism in their game for sure there is a question as to why female athletes are paid less and get less patronage deals than male athletes. But whilst the world looks at an extreme minority of trans women, the historic issues won't be addressed.
And changing rooms.
@@marisaera2353 What has changing rooms got to do with anything, ah yes I see you are one of the mind to think a minority trans person is more powerful than a majority of natal women in such a venue as if women were mice in the presence of a cat.
The only trans "debate" occurs in London. Here in the real world we see facts.
Absolutely, gender and sexuality are on a spectrum and have been for all of human history.
Like the stunning success of Brexit ?
@@JohnDoe-mx1sq how many gametes are there?
It is the Wolf brain neurotype. The male wolves adapt to take care of their young and females adapt to hunt. It is not that they are born with the other gender. I think the debate polarizes an issue that affects transgender neurotypes that do not want to identify this way. If people want to dress as other genders it is not really a debate. The whole legal pressure is the same question as gay people not being allowed in their own toilets. Stop being cool it is not. If people are not hurting anyone leave them alone.
There's an interesting discussion to be had, if only we can find civil and curious people to have it.
If only you could rewrite history and we could all forget that TRAs refused polite diacussion from the very beginning.
"No debate" was the literal slogan, no? Or did I just dream that?
@@L_Martin I wish the last decade had just been a collective fever dream. What a mess.
So you people respect this man (the trans) for supporting what is logical? It’s common sense. Men in female sports is unfair. Stop the nonsense.
The best thing about Kathleen Stock losing her job 'in hindsight' is that she can speak her opinion and truth without 'corporate guidelines, has those individuals also speak freely who oppose her opinion.
Kathleen Stocks being, that you may label identify, physically add or take away from yourself anything you please, but from a 'biological' point of reference and 'only' that you are 'biologically' either male or female.
Of course the debate can be civil - but it's hard when people react THIS angrily to the existence of the debate to begin with. I understand genuine transphobes jump into this discussion, but the discussion itself is not transphobic. If people could just talk about this with cool heads, the debate itself can be totally civil, but too many trans activists come at this with rage for the discussion itself, and that attitude has to be resisted. Objective reality has been smothered by subjective feelings, and anyone who doesn't actively participate is treated with such contempt it's terrible. Stock speaking at Oxford should not be this controversial. Supposedly enlightened, liberal young people are reacting to this like old narrow-minded religious zealots, with zero self awareness.
They get so angry because even questioning their identity causes their bubble of delusion to pop and the fantasy that they are a woman is ruined. Most transwomen think they "pass" but do not. Hearing the truth is obviously deeply hurtful and they react very badly.
Who was the silent, confused looking man? Why was he there?
How civil can a debate be when one side is effectively making the false argument that black skin is thicker therefore they can't feel pain the same way as white people?
The solution to trans women in sports is to allow them to compete with women, but to have a co-medalist and/or asterisk protocol. Everyone gets to compete, winners are recognized, nobody loses out. The alternative is to require that trans men compete with cis women, which is objectively less fair than the original proposition.
@Danger Jim I see that you don't understand what the "co" prefix means.
@Danger Jim Yes. Just because your small mind can't wrap itself around this trivially simple concept doesn't make it invalid or an un worthy solution.
@Danger Jim Because they are women.
That is some thing I push for all the time "Be Civil" there are horrible, angary, short tempered people on both sides and they react to false information.
My message for every one is and this for every one even those not involved in the topic
1. Get accurate information about what others are saying about you
2. Don't insult people
3. Don't do crimes
4. Don't use language designed to shut people up
5. don't use fear and guilt
6. Stop harassing people
7. Don't push recruitment
8. All opinions are valid
9. every thing people tell you ARE facts no body spreads lies
10. and use vocabulary that sounds like you agree with the other person.
Its also important to flat out state what you want. and bust or confirm the myths
I'm not belittling what they say they feel, but I find it puzzling that people with gender dysphoria all seem to be.... middle class
This debate can NEVER be "civil," just like the difference between Donald Trump and the Joe & Hunter Biden debate can never be 'civil.' They're just too far apart.
The other thing that you people do not realize is that I'm being calm about all this but someone will surely attack me nicely just to prove their endless propaganda 🎉
The society will never surrender, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the internet, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender. 😁
Greatings to Sir Winston Churchill
It can, but one side doesnt even recognize the other, and the othet side literally barks as a result....
Hard to find a common ground when people act like this.....
It's not trans people writing books about erasing cis people - as Stock has done. There is only one side talking about taking away rights, and it isn't trans people
The problem as it stands is that the media that informs is not a neutral observer.
No. One side is aggressive and trying to dominate because they lack authenticity.
Primary sex characteristics are more important than secondary which are feelings
These are great conversations to have. It's hard to do in the heat of a raging political culture war where trans women in sports are used as a motte argument to rope in bigotry.
Yeah, it's always great when you're talking to yourself. There is no end to the agreement and happy consensus
I think the middleground position is held by most people so it's likely not as lonely as she made it out to be. It's just the media trying to make interesting and heated interviews. If someone has an advantage in a competition, it becomes not very fun to watch or compete in. And at the same time people should be able to make themselves feel comfortable in their own body and life. What we need to realize also though is that it is not a human right to compete in the olympics, or the champions league. in fact most people have been dealt a hand at birth that excludes them from the top tier of sports, that's just what it is.
I beleive trans should be kept separate from heterosexual people i want my kids whom i take responsibility for to not be deceived and either way its not for any but what I want my child to grow up to be to even be around for talking about something like shopping or going somewhere I'm not going to tell them that they can't be there but schools and where kids are. these people will eventually invade into these areas
lol you sound like the same bigots from the Jim Crow era.
Men, yes men shouldn’t be competing with woman! Except in say ‘chess’ where the playing field is perfectly even. To think differently is literally insane….
Being a woman or being a man has historically been based on biology, and for good reason. That's the ONLY useful way to think about it. For what would it mean, then, to be a woman if not based on sex? Based on gender roles? But that would only be perpetuating gender stereotypes. Gender roles are social constructs that people have created to organize the two sexes. A lot of these were based on sexist, patriarchal reasons. These gender roles would often put women second to men. So again, if trans women are not women biologically, in what way are they a woman? It's obvious that it is based on gender roles which have often been used to limit women's potential.
Femininity in males is very different to being female
Trans women can compete with men but never with women to be fair!!
Free speech and debate ❤
In most parts of the world we came to accept same sex relationships and that must have been by open debate leading to understanding those relationships as natural. Nobody wants to talk about trans peoples needs and desires with regard to relationships so we don't get anywhere. It's as if trans people don't exist in those terms.
Why would it have anything to do with competitive advantage? What a copout! Women sports are for women, not trans-women, its not rocket science.
Other thing John thinks about being trans and a woman mantra woman would disagree with. I did enjoy hearing Kathleen talk.
Man wearing skirt demanding that they can use girls locker room and bathrooms.
What do you mean _“can the debate be civil”?_ By asking that question you’ve already lost.
There is no debate because… (dramatic pause) …SEXUAL REPRODUCTION IS NOT A DEBATABLE POINT!
Stop treating it as though it’s something we need to get to the bottom of. It’s not a problem, because it doesn’t exist. Even the wokest of woke have ceded the point there’s a distinction between gender and biological sex. From there, all they have left is defining gender. Which in the end reveals they’re conflating “gender” with personality.
This is such a weird and absurd discussion.
With much respect to Katy Jon West, I have to disagree. Even with the dearth of studies on transgender athletes, the studies we do have so far present at least trans female athletes don't have much of an advantage over cisgender women, which makes sense when one has to think about it. The drugs they take and surgeries they do to transition makes drastic changes to the body, and any supposed 'biological advantage' they might have had as a male is counteracted by the drugs and surgeries. And this only applies to adults, because children shouldn't be getting drugs and surgery outside of hormone blockers once they are a teenager.
I am also confused by Stock's answer. Granted, this is based in the UK, so might be them not personally experiencing it, but in the US: the GOP has made it blatant that they are trying to stip LGBT people of their rights and create new regulations and policies designed to stamp out LGBTQ identity in the name of "Protecting the children", echoing the Gay Panic of yesteryear. It just comes across as tone-deaf calling for civility. I also don't understand the notion of trans rights conflicting with legal protections for biological sex and female sex. We already have ample examples of trans-rights not interfering with women's rights, and vice-versa in the Western World. Stock still has that mindset that rights is a zero sum game, and that mindset would hurt both LGBT and women's rights in the long term.
Men are not women. Transwomen are men.
Great!
Frankly, I find this whole position quite tedious. There is an assumption of entitlement here masquerading as reasonable conversation. Why do so many people feel entitled to debate the nature of another person's existence? Every time I hear people talking about women's sport, I have to wonder if they ever cared about it prior to their discovery of trans women. The fact that no one complains about trans men competing in men's sports suggests to me this is simply sexism. Do they not have a 'competitive advantage', and if not why not? Because this really smacks of the assumption that men are always more physically powerful than women. It's a very traditional assumption that I thought we had disposed of back in the 80s. Finally, it's sport, not a hugely important thing in the grand scheme of humanity. Not the greatest position to be exclusionary from while claiming a fig leaf of 'reasonable discussion'. It's only lonely in the middle when you insist on making excuses for those clinging to the out dated
What ?
ofc they cared about it that is why more woman's sport is being shown on tv, more woman refs, more woman pundits in sport. Where have you been hiding the last several years? No one complains about woman in men's sport because there is no physical advantage and very little participation... Sport is also hugely important, have you literally been living in a cave your whole life?
Well said
Are you high?
@@Sidecontrol1234 You're telling on yourself. I'm sure there are women athletes who do care, as well as those who don't. I'm saying that sports are a pastime. Men, women, horse racing even. It's entertainment. Yes, that is not unimportant, but it doesn't rank with food, shelter, education, healthcare, and justice. *You* consider women's sport to be important. Not being a sport fanatic isn't 'living under a rock'
No, they are groomers and I will never accept this. They want to create more of them.
I will never respect them or call them whatever pronouns they can come up with.
I think you're a groomer too.
They are not groomers any more than you are
Most real-life groomers, like Jeffrey Epstein and co. are right wingers or wealthy establishment figures
Show me one single example of the conviction of a trans person for grooming or anything related to it
The one thing we can safely say about gross generalisations, such as yours, is that they are always incorrect. Life is far more complex than that.
Most of them are just trying to survive Chris. I'm sure there are some dumb/criminal trans people with twisted ideas and ill intent, much like yourself, but most of them are just making ends meet in a dangerous world. Read any scientific paper with demo stats and you will see they are by far the most vulnerable group in any society. From poverty, homelessness, illness and suicide to being murdered. No one in their right mind wishes that upon anyone.
@@jeremymanson1781 there are different groups who call themselves trans and one group certainly does target kids for so called "acceptance" and see their role as turning kids. Thats on record. This week it was reported that a hospital in Birmingham is asking parents if their newborns are non-binary "thems". Munchhausen by proxy.
These days you need to come out as rational lol
People are upset because this isn’t theoretical for them. It effects everything in there life. A trans women who has practiced every day and dreams of becoming a professional athlete. Will have that dream completely crushed. A trans woman who has trained all her life and is a professional athlete will have their career completely ruined. It’s not at all strange that people are upset.
Just like women have trained all their lives to be professional athletes and deserve fair competition.
@@animec-dramaskpop6362
I agree. so can we move forward and let science and research guide our way to allow both sis and trans women a fair chance.
So far science and research favours allowing most trans women to participate.
@@isakrynell8771 Science doesn't favor transwomen, especially if they transition after puberty.
@@DangerJim-vq5uh
Yes and at one point whit people did not want to be around black peoples. But luckily society improved.
@Danger Jim sports do tend to be dominated by someone with a biological advantage
Sounds like a man to me
What I will never understand is why some people allow anti trans hate to consume their lives. I understand why trans people care about trans issues, but so many online who are not trans become obsessed with trans issues and it is all they post/think about, to the point where it alienates them from their friends and family in the real world. Graham Linehan cones to mind but there are hundreds or thousands like him.
@@derrickknight7164 the vast majority of everybody will agree that sex cannot be changed. That includes Trans activists, anti trans activists and people who don’t know what a transgender person is. If you espouse any viewpoint strongly there will be people online who disagree and call you names. Heck there are even people who believe the earth is flat on the Internet
It has already been said ; Transphobia is Britain's accepted bigotry.
@@derrickknight7164 No the conversation is about gender not sex. Gender and sex are two different things.
@Danger Jim Because it's like this, folk are using sex and gender interchangeably as if they were the same when they're not the same. And of course transgender is about gender, not sex.
@@DangerJim-vq5uh the society we live in, which makes up our day to day realities, has created gender roles and they are very real. An individual can adapt to that socially constructed reality any way they like. This includes living a different gender than was applied at birth.
Milkers need to stand aside for Women+.
Can you really have a civil discussion with someone who insists you shouldn't exist?
Stock who said gender fluidity is a *"social contagion"* ....she doesn't seem like a civil person or a serious academic
Ironically the basis of transgender ideology is accepted and promoted feminist theory
Is it uncivil to call anorexia a social contagion? Not everyone agrees with Gender Theory's idea that people are born in the wrong body. It has been well established that teenage girls are a very vulnerable group when it comes to social contagions, and wouldn't you know it, ROGD is exactly that.
You are allowed to disagree with this, and I'm allowed to disagree with you that people are "born in the wrong body". And neither of us needs to be branded "uncivil" or not serious. How about just accept not everyone thinks about gender and the explosion in numbers of (autistic, same-s* attracted, foster care, gender non conforming) girls presenting at clinics the same way you do?
@@L_Martin First off the concept of being born in the wrong body was actually coined by a gender specialist Dr John Money in the 1960's for that concept to both seized upon by the media and would be trans folk alike since, the latter because it was a medically tested way to access the treatment the individual desired.
Secondly ROGD is a new concept of which has not yet been recognised by all the major psychiatric bodies for them to be discouraging of it's application until the concept has been thoroughly tested.
But interesting you mention autism of which some unfairly refer to as narcissism when it concerns transwomen, where what would folk think when they learned there was an overlap between autism and transgenderism, would they consider transwomen more kindly or is it some disabled people may be better cared for whilst others not?
Better discussion could be had if folk just dialled down the nastiness, for of course when folk are throwing insults at each other all we can expect is misery and fractured societies and I do think it's for those with the power to dial it down.
@@L_Martin People don't proudly identify as anorexic, they typically see it as bad & not part of their essential identity. So obviously it is not uncivil in the same way, but I don't think it's a good analogy for anorexia either anyway. How does anorexia spread, is it like a virus from person-to-person contact or is it more through looking at images in the media ? ~In my experience & from what I have heard it's not like a contagion at all, & neither is gender fluidity. But if you disagree, by all means, try to explain how similar you think it is.
@@candidbowyer4625 "is it like a virus from person-to-person contact or is it more through looking at images in the media ?"
I think you're confusing what is meant by social contagion. This takes place in friendship groups of teenage girls, or larger groupings e.g. a girls' school.
EDs, cutting, even fainting spells, hysteria as in the case of the Salem Witch Trials. There is a long well-established basis in medical literature of teenage girls especially being incredibly susceptible to the pressures within their social group, and by "pressures" I mean it is trendy to do x.
How else can you explain the explosion in numbers of the ROGD cohort? At the Tavistock clinic in the UK, the numbers of girls presenting exploded, in less than a decade there was a 1,460% increase in referrals of boys and a 5,337% increase in girls. Do you grasp how insane that number is?
If there was a 5,000% increase of girls being diagnosed with some other illness in the span of 10 years, and there was not a concordant increase among older women, wouldn't that make you wonder why teenage girls are the specific cohort who are showing up at the clinic self-diagnosing as being 'born in the wrong body'? And also btw 3 members of their friendship group just so happen to also feel the same way?
Doesn't any of this sound strange to you? Why aren't women in their 50s, 60s, 70s presenting at gender clinics in these numbers? Wouldn't you expect to see a spread of distribution as we see in same-s* attraction?
The over representation of autistic females, and girls who have been in foster care (higher likelihood of childhood SA), and girls who are same-s* attracted - this has all been shown in Hannah Barnes's book "Time to Think". This is a cohort who are highly vulnerable to social influence by peers, as well as social media, in a way other segments of the population are not.
I think the problem is valuing gender segregation in sport. We’re putting together leagues of lesser athletes and then falling all over ourselves to pretend it’s interesting for the sake of “equity.” How many male athletes did Serena Williams out-earn that she could barely have kept up with on her best day, all because we’re obsessed with finding out who is the best among a sub-set of worse athletes? Eliminate gender classes in sport, let skill determine success, and the problem with trans athletes in sport goes away.
I think that you are failing to understand that there is more to sport than being the best in the world. We have segregation in sport on various terms for various reasons. One of them is that people who might not be one of the elite minority of the human species might still want to enjoy sport. The local pub football team have no chance of beating Premier League professionals. It would be pointless and humiliating for them to try. But they can compete against other pub teams and have fun. Eliminate sex segregation in sport and you eliminate women's sport.
What I’m failing to understand why that’s a problem. Like with your pub team example, it doesn’t mean women by and large can’t still enjoy sport. Tbh, there’s really only one instance (at least from the American perspective) where we should care about the integrity of women’s sport, and that’s the college level, because scholarship opportunities is an equal access concern for higher education. Other than that, it all smacks of entitlement, and it grows out of thinking college sports is anything other than a a platform to promote equal access.
@@altortugas5979 What is the "entitlement" you're referring to? That women feel entitled to enter a competition they have a chance of winning? You seem to be proposing that women can "enjoy" sport so long as they understand that if a guy wants to show up and take the prize, his win is all that matters. That doesn't sound like enjoyment to me.
@@altortugas5979 the only entitlement |I can see here is your over-inflated male entitlement, that would happily relegate all women to the also-ran category. Believe it or not, we women are not just smaller, less strong males. We are a sex in our own right and have the right to our own spaces, services and sports, free from males however they identify.
@@altortugas5979 I think you're just a misogynist who isn't trying to be helpful at all.
If this is what passes for debate in the Uk now - several people all agreeing with each other - then it's no wonder that country is going down the toilet
There has been some academic protest as to the above article in that the complainants suggest they were deceived by Ch4
Trans women are beautiful and inspiring.
The group of those who are AGPs don't inspire me much tbh and straight males getting a thrill that way while forcing their way into women & girl's spaces is not what I'd call beautiful.
@L Martin Yeah so many straight males wear dresses. Lol
@@oliviamaynard9372 Yes there used to be a name for them, it was transvestites. Did all the transvestites magically disappear? No, they are under the "umbrella" now.
Are you seriously under the impression most trans women like yourself are attracted to men? AKA "hsts"? Most males who identify as "trans women" are attracted to women. AKA straight males. Also known as AGPs.
It will only be civil when trans people stop with the you had better like it attitude
i absolutely love this, feminist wanted this, you got equality, reap what you sow, feminists you will lose, but until then let the cat fight begin
Mother Nature uses many forms of reproduction, Fish in rivers are know to change Sex, Hermaphrodites have been known about in the human world for time beyond memory But The Bone Structure of Male Female, Ask a female Engineer, let her describe, Bone structure, Leverage lengths, Height to weight ratio I loved to play Squash(google it)one of my best mates kept refusing to play a set, She finally agreed and wiped the floor with me, She was a county/national level player, I'm a bloke I've beaten loads of times, I have learnt Get up, Or the beating will be worse, So I regret a female being denied her achievement in life because of a, Soul that cheats