This Car Was Too Heavy. How did it Keep Winning?
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- Опубликовано: 10 сен 2024
- The 80s were a wild time for Audi. The development of their Quattro four-wheel drive system had helped them claim 2 WRC titles during rally’s outrageous Group B era, but after Group B’s collapse in 1986 Audi were left with a lot of great knowledge and tech, but no challenge...
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Written by: Fred Knight
Edited by: JD Minny ( @jdminny )
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Sources: drive.google.c...
Check out the BMW DTM story here: ruclips.net/video/Wwk6sfCiNTY/видео.html
I love the Audi mentality of performance products.. fuck weight and weight distribution.. Power and AWD will fix everything.
Fuck what? Front weight bias is the best thing you can get from these cars.
As a famous person once said "speed and power solves everything"
@@indominusrex1652didn't work often, especially for Richard Hammond.
Stuck seems like a fun guy there. Hanging out of his window, kissing his co podium goers, hulahooping... Never knew that. Can I adopt him as my distant uncle?
His father is Hans Stuck the senior, one of the legends of pre-WW2 Grand Prix racing. Raced with Auto Union back in the 1930s and dominated in much the same fashion. It seems that motorsport success comes natural to the family.
He was also the president of the DMSB (Deutscher MotorSport Bund) - the governing body for almost all automotive sports in Germany from 2012-2020.
I heard in some podcasts from people that were in a team or had to do with him, that he was doing a bunch of pranks in the paddock, pits etc. so yes, he's really a funny guy.
I was going to comment the same. Amazing party guy.
Ha ha, nice comment m8 maybe we could invite him around for Christmas, get him jacked up on a cpl of bottles of bubbly and have a great time?
@@masterkamen371 For a guy that was named after his father, the fact that he is funny is quite impressive
There is quite a lot more to it. About the high weight of the V8: Group A rules heavily favoured large displacement cars (including turbos due to the 1,4x displacement factor). The DTM tried to mitigate this by limiting tyre width and imposing a minimum weight. In 1992 the BMWs and Mercedes had to run 40kg above regulation weight whereas the Audi V8 had to run 120kg above regulation weight. Due to this there wasnt any reason for Audi to decrease the weight of the V8.
About the crankshaft: The Group A rules state that the original crankshaft must be used but that it can be modified. Audi played the rules and reheated original crankshafts to then twist the rod journals into a flatplane configuration.
The OMS (governing body of the DTM) checked the engine after the Zolder race and deemed it legal.
After the Wunstorf race BMW complained to the OMS which once again deemed the engine legal. BMW appealed this descision and suprisingly the OMS court ruled in favor of BMW deeming the crankshaft as illegal.
Just a week later at the AVUS race a report by the TÜV and OMS was published which one again deemed the crankshaft as legal.
At the next race weekend at Hockenheim BMW once again protested the crankshaft and once again this protest was denied due to the report and the previous decisions. Similar to the Wunstorf race, BMW appealed this decision and suddenly the crankshaft was ruled illegal again.
Audi was sick of this inconsistency and left.
Thue that. Audi didn't cheat, they actually played the rules by the letter.
And by the time the others could make the cars by the ever changing rules they themselves virtually dictated (the rule maker was literally working for Mercedes), Audi stuck to the Group A annex J rules and kept on winning.
In the end they bullied Audi out of the championship.
The organisation did the same when Alfa Romeo a few years later won everything too, also by playing by the ever changing Class 1 rules.
Just like ousting the pulverizing Sierra earlier, the rules were changed to what especially Mercedes had in the pipeline, but they didn't expect the competition to be more creative.
Until virtually everybody else left the series, ending with only Mercedes and Opel and in combination with ludicrous ticket prices, that became the end of the only real DTM championship.
What came after was a farce.
Well said. They made staged forging tooling to "adjust" the crank plane. Bloody sensational interpretation.
" Group A rules heavily favoured large displacement cars"
They did not.
Mercedes abandoned the 560SEC as a viable Group A car because the rules did not allow them to put wide enough tyres on the car.
The advantage that cars like the Jaguar XJS and Holden Commodore initially had, was eaten up when turbo cars of less than 2.7L could put better tyres on for the weight.
@@andrewrollason4963true. The Sierra was the brilliant. I know Godzilla came and conquered everything but I love the Sierra. As a proud Dick Johnson and DJR it’s great that he built the fastest and best sierra’s in the world
It amazes me why BMW or Mercedes didn’t use a bigger model either, imagine a M5 and a c124 out there.
I drove a '92 V8 Quattro for nearly a week, before deciding not to trade for it. I was stupid and should've kept the car. My truck was nice, and the ladies liked it much better... but that car was AMAZING for the year and mileage. At 180k miles, and having previously owned a 4000 CS, I was fearful of repair costs. Little did I know, the V8 Quattro was one of the most dependable cars Audi ever produced.
I often look back and wonder how things would've been different, had I kept the V8.
Imagine caring what the ladies think. What a shame.
@driverjamescopeland Twenty years ago,I trade for an 95 S6 avant V8 with 200000 kms equipped with the same 290hp 4,2L. I used it for ten years without any engine issue.
The only bad news were that spi joint, ensuring oilproofing between the gearbox and the rear shaft that had to be changed at 250000 kms.
Much money for nothing..
MANY were leery of the Audi reliability.....many still are....lol
@@ssnerd583as for mercedes benz.
Buy japanese !
@@ssnerd583 as for mercedes benz.
Buy japanese
Schumacher... ramming opponents off the track since the late 80's.
🤣🤣🤣
What a crook
If he wanted that backing...he had to do some favors. He wouldn't been the first.
That's not the whole truth. The "new" crankshaft used in 1992 was based on the series crankshaft. It was only bent the other way around during production. This was even accepted by the racing commissioners of the DTM and declared compliant with the rules. When the competition complained during the season, this was declared illegal and Audi got out of the DTM. This story comes from an interview with Ulrich Baretzky. He was head of racing engine development at Audi from the end of 1980 until Le Man's exit from Audi in 2016.
0:43 ah the classic "holy shit we suck in comparison, better ban this new competition!"
Its more like Audi was always looking for blind spots in the rules to win but never won a fair competition with similiar competitors. Its like a man would fight in olympic boxing......oh no....
@@maxmustermann8167there is no loopholes, if you win by the rules you won fair, end of story
@@maxmustermann8167 I too like to spread misinformation on the internet. Stop believing russian propaganda. The woman won gold. Suck it up buttercup
When I was in high school I got to hang out with Hurley Haywood and Hans Stuck in the Audi pits. Just me and two legends talking uninterrupted for about an hour, one of the most amazing moments of my life. They were both so humble and friendly
The v8 is my favorite DTM car ever. It's probably the car i have driven the most in Assetto Corsa. It's really different than the other DTM cars, you gotta really send it.
dominating while hundreds of KILOS overweight is truly nuts
Changing the rules to kill the champions aren't new. The ACO changed the rules for LeMans so that Ford couldn't use their mighty 7 liter motors.
I still can’t believe how those cars managed to handle that well with so much weight hanging ahead of the front axle. Also, the packaging of the cooling system looks cramped. Knowing who was at the head of Audi at the time, I can only imagine the amount of time and effort that went into making these cars competitive.
Because this weight was hanging ahead of the front axle. Seriously. This is perfect balance for full time awd car and this layout was making front axle grippy and rear lightweight loose.
In every sucessfull full time awd car, you have not only engine but whole system ahead of the front axle, additionaly audis had their gearbox behind front axle. Thats why ultra big V8 in Audis had anyway 60/40 weight distibution, when small and light inline 3 in newest yaris GR making 62/38 weight distribution.
@@bapr3887It's not true. The RS200 proves you wrong f.e. And the others had the engines so far in front because of packaging problems, not because they wanted it like this. It's always the best for road racing to have the weight as low and close to the center as possible for a quick and easy direction change. Simple physics. And the weight distribution isn't everything, if you have the weights so far in front and the back. For straight line performance It's not so important, but for cornering.
@@BastianKH 99% of video is about touring car racing, normal cars, sedans, car that you can buy and go for grocery store and hehe full size luxury cars.
So you by adding midengine rockets from hell to prove your point...actually proves my point.
We talk about normal cars, not midships, f1, bolids etc, and when there is nothing left and you need to take midship to beat normal car, this normal car is made by genius.
@@bapr3887 They have nearly nothing to do with the road cars anymore. Have you seen them live in person? The shell is close to stock, but that's it. Look at the engine positions in E30 and 190E f.e. And tooootally different kinematics as well. You can't really compare it with road cars.
@@bapr3887Just because he’s talking about an RS200 doesn’t mean he’s wrong… Having that much weight over the front axles is known to cause understeer in road cars AND race cars… Look no further than Audi’s own Sport Quattro S1 rally car, which was a mismatch of two different chassis in order to shorten the wheel base because Audi was struggling with understeer so much… If you want an example of understeer, look at the road going variants of the Quattro, they have a well garnered reputation for understeer…
At first I thought: wait what? An American is talking about overweight German cars? But your storytelling, editing and even your pronounciation of German words is top notch.
Very well done 👍
Thank you! But to clarify: I am very much not American haha
@@automobilisticYupp, but I realised that later... Well done, mate...
God those cars looked so beautiful
Audi-"Screw you guys, I'm going home!"
Putting Hans Stuck in the driver's seat is almost a form of cheating.
I would say, putting Walter Röhrl into the game to cover Stuck's six, that is for sure cheating 😅
my favorite car youtuber uploaded
No doubt about it.
For sure.
This incomplete sentence gave me a headache.
Then the A4 began to dominate.
Then Audi went to IMSA and TransAm and dominated there.
Until they changed the rules again.
Off to LeMans and history.
Don't forget Pikes Peak.
And Audi dominated in the Wesbank Modifieds too, during the early 90's :D
This channel is such a gem
So impressive your work mate, I really hope you give yourself some credit
Looking forward to the next, cheers !
Sad that they Banned AWD systems instead of incorporating it into the championships, like WEC does with hybrids and no hybrids, we could have had multi-class racing based on drive systems, a 4wd class and 2wd class championship.
‘Absolute barge’
Well said 😃
Still waiting for Audi to make a WRC comeback 😐
quite possibly gonna happen when WRC goes full eletcric... (hopefully not)
@@kingster3835WRC went hybrid in 2022 but they are going back to ICE soon
they dont make anything small enough. they canceled ALL 2 door cars. so its sedans or SUVs for them. too large for going against Hyundais and Fiestas
and also the WEC
Time for that is gone. When they were making the A1 was the time they shouldve returned
There was one more AWD Audi racing project in the US which again follows a similar story SCCA World Challenge where they brought S4's and RS6's to glory with a former Porsche team well until Pratt and Miller with GM backing took a Cadillac and dominated starting a trend for the car
Not one more. Biggest AWD audi racing project was mighty audi 90 imsa/gto and therefore 200 lemans. You mean probably about early 00s Rs6 with Randy Pobst domination. Yep, this was again weirdly domination in very big RS6 vs small race cars. Go and watch "unfair advantage" in yt about 200 lemans/90 imsa.
@@bapr3887 i know all about that story but the RS6 Project was an S4 originally
I Owned a 1990 Audi V8 and the only thing fast about that car was that it sounded like it. I just can’t wrap my head around the fact they made it a race car lol
Sometimes some people can t be fast even with a v10. Probably your case
Please do a video on Australian touring cars! It would be awesome to hear you talk about Brock and the mountain
The new RS6 hatch honoring the trans am car is so good looking. Its got the white with orange and all white wheels. Check it out if you haven't seen it yet.
Watched twice already I love Audi I own 1 and looking to get Rs5 B8 and turn it into this beast for track
lmao.. have you driven a B8 RS5? it's a heavy boy.
@@MrCukydoh yes and it's so heavy my Audi a5 3.2 is so heavy that's why I been thinking about GR86 bro what you think??? Get my dream car or a car I can whip around and enjoy???? And knowing it's new working on it myself??? What would you choose??
@@jstewlly4747 i briefly ran a RS5. lovely daily, the M3 is a better track car, still need to drive a C63
@MrCukydoh I drove C63 it was so fun yet pretty unstable I was scared I'm not a trq guy but damn was it fun
1/3 of the way through, enjoying the content and presentation, totally subbed.
just found your channel, went on a binge pretty much watched as much as i can so I can process the info of race cars of the years. Thank you for the info I was lacking on cars I have a love for, I’ve learned a lot I thought I already knew. If you made car documentary based on a certain topic like JGTC or BTCC I’d watch.
We can only hope that audi makes this kind of a splash when they hit f1
I think they should have been in F1 decades ago
If you ever start doing driver profiles I'd love one on Walter Röhrl, he just seems to have been everywhere in the 80s und 90s
always the best euro motorsports vids. cheers
Very happy i stumbled upon your channel.
Love your channel .... So much info and facts I never knew or even heard of ... THANKX :D🤘
I don’t know if you have done anything on pikes peaks but there have been many interesting cars built for the event. If I remember correctly, there was once a dual engine golf built by VW
During that time DTM ran two 100km-races on Sunday with a repait break in between.
The race.in Saturday and Sunday was introduced in 2015, after there was only one race on Sunday since 2003.
a few issues with Aero as well look at the clip at around @11:38 that Audi has its front wheels off the ground up hill 😲😲😲😲
Every day’s a school day😎👍🏻
Excellent video. Thanks for sharing.
So many Audi "experts" and still nobody noticed some kind of a non-EU version Audi 100 C1 at 2:39.
Awesome.... Definitely an Audi fan. In the spirit of the v8, I race a Lexus LS400 in circuit racing lol (Though I have Audi street cars).
Wait I recognize that footage of the track and wooden area. Motorweek!! Probably one of the best American automotive related media ever produced.
Remember when cars looked good and had their own personalities? These days, all vehicles go for the edgy technology look, which sucks and is ugly.
literally all of these cars look like a brick
@@dani8361a lot better looking than anything else
The A4 B5 STW car is gonna be my favorite for all time, simply amazing!
6:28 .... WHAT? Never heard of him!!
In 1988 Audi went to North America to teach them how to pronounce Audi. In 1989 Audi were forced out of North America
#Audi5000😉
I bet you could head that thing screaming from miles away. The third loudest thing on the planet, second is a J-79 jet engine, and 1 is 787B
I have had a 2005 3.2L TT Quattro SLine with DSG for the past 18 years. Yeah yeah- I KNOW its a haldex, but it still puts power down in all 4 corners and the car just will not hydroplane and holds power thru twisty turns and curves better than any RWD I’ve driven or been very distantly chased by. It’s also been the lowest cost of ownership car I have ever had, not costing me anything beyond scheduled maintenance until very recently when I decided to spruce it up so it will stay new looking and driving another 18 years.
It’s not the fastest car on the road, but it is the funnest, most affordable, and most practical. ( iv’e brought lumber home in my TT. ) And it’s possibly the best quality of build Audi ever achieved, with its all aluminum trim.
I had a rainy drag "race" against one of those at the red lights once. The TT was much faster than I had expected. At the next lights is when I saw the 3.2 badge :p
had a beautiful 1990 V8. Loved that car. Until a scambag guy decided to steal it. My life changed after so I never got a chance to get the same car but got close a few times. The one I really wanted was a 1993 V8 4.2l Manual !!!
Cool story, I found an interesting topic for video tho. I hear from many that rx7 was dominant in IMSA which is IMO more interesting than Mazda's french single triumph at Le Mans.
Yet i cannot find any similar video on this topic
The Mazda IMSA entries are on my list!
I read up on that car. It was indeed a monster
@@automobilistic can you also cover the domination of the 935 family of race cars and when Kremer beat Porsche at their own game?
@@MiguelGarcia-vj7oo You can give a watch in a meantime to huge three part documentary of 935 by small you tuber ARC Driver. None of yt car guys I found made a vid on IMSA's rx-7
Lovely clip into the Golden era of DTM!
BTW: what maker models are those Toyota GT-One, Sauber and Takata NSX behind you on the shelves? and what scale are those? I would love to have my hands on a NSX LM spec car from 1994... and ARTA NSX .
Ford Sierra next, please :)
Nice touch, that Audi livery with your name in it. I did snigger a bit :)
lets be honest , a high revving as possible 4 valve audi v8 was probably pushing out 500-600 bhp , bmw and mercedes where making 380bhp with their 2.5 evo's, weighing around 860kg, the audi with 4wd and weighing more needed at least 150-200bhp more to compete with them.
That man wasnt stuck he was flying
Great video !
1:53 2.1 meter ?? Isnt it liter?
Yes, I say "2.1 litre". Not sure where you got "metre" from - does it say that in the subtitles or something?
You said meter.@@automobilistic
@@abda2lh9 counter point: no I didn't.
Mad take here but what if the DTM raced with souped up stripped out S-Classes, 7 Series and A8s?
The "how" is that the DTM banned the nominal Group A competition.
The Audi V8 Quattro would have roundly been beaten by the Holden Commodore VL SS Group A; which in 1990 did manage to steal a Bathurst win against the Nissan GTR. The VN which came in 1991 was also pretty handy.
There were plans for the Audi V8 Quattros to appear at Bathurst in 1991 but the factory realised that they'd be beaten; so they didn't show up.
Find that very hard to believe, especially considering the differences between those machines, Audi destroyed its rivals from GM in the US in TransAm. Doubt those Aussie and Japanese machines would've made a difference. They were all destroyed by the M3 anyway when you had the R32 GTR and the rest all competing at the 24 hours of Nurburgring event with BMW wiping the floor with Mercedes, Ford, Nissan, Audi and Honda. The Skyline was a good car, but it's dominance is overstated when compared to the E30 M3 which is the most successful race car ever, as well as the Ford Sierra Cosworth RS500 and Mercedes Benz 190e.
@@bzilla-d4i The M3 was an absolute also ran against the Sierra, Commodore and GTR.
"Doubt those Aussie and Japanese machines would've made a difference."
GTR killed all and sundry.
Commodore was inadequate but still managed to win the 1000 against it.
@@bzilla-d4i "Audi destroyed its rivals from GM in the US in TransAm."
The TransAm Audi is not this.
.
@@andrewrollason4963 killed all? Well the results speak for themselves when they went head to head, the E30 M3 always came out on top. Despite being a class down. The correction should be the GTR killed all in Japan and Australia. In 1991 Macau the Europeans entered and the R32 driven by Hasemi got his ass kicked by not just the M3 but the 190e as well. When those guys came up against the Europeans they lost hard, Team Lark's McLaren F1 GTR completely shut all of them out when the entered with Ralf Schumacher, nearly driving a complete shutout of the season not winning in only 1 race. They always lost quite handily when they came up against the Europeans. Being dominant in Japan and Australia is one thing, but when facing the European teams they always came up 2nd best. This is not speculation, this is fact. And that's despite the BMW's and Mercedes being non turbo machines way down on power. Even in Japan the E30 M3 is the most successful touring car ever, with 7 titles. The real battles took place in the mid to late 90's between the Primera, Audi A4, Ford Mondeo, Renault Laguna, Honda Accord and the 318is. That was much closer in spec, and a lot more fun to watch
Source: you made it the fuck up
Crazy that the E30 was still competitive during this time. It was out powered by the mercs and greatly out powered by the audis. And audi still had to cheat. Then when caught they dropped out and played victim. Not a good look for audi. Bmw would never.😂😂
Except Audi was winning before they put in the flat-plane crankshaft. I think it’s more impressive that Audi made a full-size, executive car a successful touring car. The illegal crankshaft was just them pushing the rules to try and keep the car competitive for a third season when the weight became a problem.
BMW would never what? Win the transam championship in the first year of entering? Dominate the first 2 years of Group B? Win lemans 13 times in 17 years? Win the Dakar rally? Be the first manufacturer to win DTM championships back to back? Be the only manufacturer that won the big 3 European endurance races (Lemans 24h, Spa 24h and Nurburgring 24h) in the same year not once but twice? Win nurburgring 24h 7 times in 13 years? Yeah BMW would never achieve that, but Audi did 😘
@@BrownSofaGamer yea with twice the cylinders and drive wheels. That's all I was pointing out. That the bmw was still holding its own against a far superior vehicle.
@@Jules-oc3pv and even with those accomplishments the e30 m3 has still won more. Bmw did it with the same chassis across all forms of racing. Its known as the most successful road race car in history for a reason. And im not here to hate on audi. I actually like them alot. Their lemans program from 2000 to 2005 with the r8 was untouchable. A pure masterclass in endurance dominance.
@@Jules-oc3pv also bmw has won dakar six times. 3 of those wins were in a row.83,84,85... Says Audi just got their first win there in 2024.
Sittin in a audi sq5 as i watch this
talking about turbo bans.. I still dont get why ford did not put 5.0 coyote engine in a racing sierra.. they had built 250ish XR8 sierras with said engine
Funny how idiots talk about weight distribution without a clue. Its simple if you can use your brain 10%,but seems most of people just copy and paste what they hear at another idiots. Its called pendulum effect its same thing happening with Porsche or most of mid engine cars. This is one of the best things on car. The car have so much turn in and the feeling its just amazing.
4:48 hit from behind?
he completely locked up and plowed into someone
hi there, i just wanna ask where did you get your car models ?,i mean i would love to buy them
Nice video
Great vid
Didnt Audi fiddle with the cylinders 😂
Group A was completely dominated by the Delta
In rally, yes
Group A needs to come back.
You know you’re great if the change the rules in TWO championships just to slow YOU down…
THEY
Audi: shows up, wins, gets to good, goes home.
These BMW's & Mercedes Benz's where the legendary BMW e30 M3 with 2.3 liter engine and Mercedes Benz 190 2.3 16V.
The Mercedes Benz 190 had/has multi link suspension on the rear axle, witch was pretty much unmatched/unheard vs the rest of the world in a standard car.
back than. these cars will not brake out in the back if you want them too, you would simply drift around the corner in a controlled fashion and resume your drive. very cool.
very nice video with M.Schumacher I WILL PRAY FOR MICHAEL TOMORROW
audi may have won some stuff. But the 190E and E32 to this day are ICONS!
the foundation on which the legend of DTM is built on those two cars. And audi had sweet F all to do with it.
Sure enough Audi built a rally legend but no one gives a damn about their boring circuit racing days. Merc and BMW are far more desirable From this era.
It's simple- Audi don't mess around!
This is probably why F1 doesn't want Audi to race with other manufacturers in F1.
now that i think of it, has audi ever made a light roadcar in its class?
does anyone know the song name that plays on 6:10
No
Darude- Sandstorm
Oh how I love Audi
By the way, how do you make your videos. I want to do kind of the same thing as this, so I want to know how you make and edit them
Yo where can I get one of those pictures like you have from the Circuit de la Sarthe?
Like this video!
These huge champ Audi is my all time fav
Lancia and Peugeot were also fast and had no awd. But I don't see the point to claim Audi was cheating. Wasn't like they were hiding the fact using quattro awd
where are the model cars from?
Great video. Have seen a bit on this from the dtm 92 season review (might be on RUclips)
Never been a fan of audi. Sure they innovate but they cheat and bend the rules. Dr Ulrich was a proven source of this.
I’m a proud bmw fan, don’t mind mercs but always found bmw to be better in more ways. Love the group a e30 M3, lucky to see them in Australia. Love The super touring e36s too. Especially the Bathurst winner that never gets remembered
good AWD system
that's why
May the legend Michael Schumacher have as happy days as possible for the rest of his life, you will be remembered.
all your model caras are frrom the same manufacturer?
one of my earliest memories in life was being 5 years old durring the peak of DTM . the e30 is cemented as my favorite race car of all time. audi's a close second.
5:40 💀
Do you have sources for the bgm you used?
Schumacher showing even in a road car he cant drive with the best 😂
V8 against 4 inline??
Just gotta say, I think that's a Merc climbing Mt Panorama at 2:06. Why didn't Audi bring this monster over here? Maybe they could've tamed the GTR....maybe! I wish motor sport would stop this horse sh*t changing the rules to force excessively successful cars out and let them stay, make all the rest pickup their game. Would make for a better future.
seems like Audi took quite some inspiration from AMG's Rote Sau for this one
well weight is not all, a good driver even if the car is heavy the superiority in building suspenctions superior to all others and always perfect handling cars would m,ake it a winner if it were like others and the drivers were all equal then weight was a factor but in this situation was proven not to be ,the sirra cosworth not RS500 won a lot with extra weight
Meanwhile... This is an opel omega evo, a "luxury" car, modified for dtm by (i cant remember the name)
Wasn't this cor covered already on here? Need a vid on the ford GT40 and GT
Never covered this before. But the ford is on the list :)
@@automobilistic hell yeah
Wish Audi returned to DTM again btw.
They did, back in 2012 or so. But they've been absent for a few years as of late once more, unless you wanna count GT3 Audi R8s.
Audi returned to DTM and dominated it again. RS5 DTM is one of most sucessful racing cars in racing history.
@@charlienash1050 They back to DTM in 2000 as privateers ABT team. When DTM also reopened.