Doctors of Running covered this topic in detail. The stack does play a roll when you look at the science behind it. A lot of it depends on your mechanics. In general, the lower the stack height the more forces are being transferred to the foot, ankle, achilles, and calves. The higher the stack height the more forces are transferred to the knees, hips, and lower back. 8mm is the sweet spot for me and my mechanics. Finding the right stack height for you can be a game changer to help reduce injury and fatigue.
I run in a rotation of shoes of varying drops in a range of 4-10 mm and haven’t found drop to make as much difference as other factors such as midsole density/response/compressibility, midsole geometry, upper support (heel/midfoot lockdown) and so on. All these variables interact with each other and are in turn influenced by the weight of the runner, and how that person’s gait and form affect their impact on landing. Because a couple of mm difference can be cancelled out by a hard landing of a heavy runner on a softer foam, it’s impossible to separate all these elements. It comes down to finding a shoe that works for you, and that can only be determined by trial and error. I feel fortunate to be among many here for whom a variety of shoe metrics works. Ideally the little variables among those contribute to minimizing my risk of repetitive motion injury. Martha
Another thing to consider is "effective stack height" which is the offset when the heel and forefoot compress differently. An example I'm familiar with is endo speed/pro which were designed to ride like a lower drop (source saucony blog)
Yeah, a very soft shoe may result in NEGATIVE drop as it compresses for heel strikers. And don't forget that paces result in different footstrike; the slower you go the more toward the heel you land, the faster you go, the more toward the forefoot, all the way to sprinting, where you're only on your toes. So, finding a Goldilocks shoe that is "good" from ez run to tempo run paces becomes more difficult.
@@tazpengra That's why Vimazi is making shoes tuned to the pace you run. Faster running means greater forces, so Vimazi adjusts the density of the midsole to account for those forces. You get better cushioning and the most efficient push off from the forefoot. You also ensure that your achilles doesn't go negative on impact. Vimazi believes lower drops are generally better as long as you keep the heel in positive territory.
Do you heel strike Ed? As a midfoot/forefoot striker, drop has become my number 1 metric when considering running shoes. I find anything above 6mm forces me to land higher on my toes to avoid my heel touching the ground (this tells me I land on my forefoot with a relatively low angle). While I can see how this could have the psychological effect encouraging you to move faster, it puts undue stress on my ankles and toes over time. If one trains correctly I don’t think you need the artificial slope of a high drop shoe to go fast and ultimately I think a low drop shoe will be better for my body in the long run. For heel strikers the complete opposite is true and more cushion is necessary to protect your heel since your calf can’t soften the impact. As Ed points out, more cushion and a steeper drop are not equal. I almost think a higher drop encourages a heel strike, which I believe has been clinically proven to be less efficient. I used to be a hard heel striker and transitioned to midfoot/forefoot striking. It took about 8 months of retraining to get used to it, but eliminated all of my knee pain. Curious to hear other peoples thoughts. Anyone else an ex-heel striker?
Heel striker and supinator here. I overthink heel-to-toe and glad you brought it up. Years ago, when I tried on some Hokas (4mm drop), they felt really good and far more natural for me. I still use the Carbon X V1 (5mm drop) here and there and it feels great. For races I use the Vaporfly Next% V1 and Adizero Adios Pro V1, about the same drop (~8mm), and they feel good. Just picked up a pair of ASICS Magic Speed (5mm drop) and excited to try them out. I think in general low drop just feels better to me even though I'm a heel striker.
Interesting topic Ed and comments. I do feel after all these years that if it works for you don’t try and fix it or change for change sake. I won’t look at anything below 8mm drop for my road shoes but come down slightly to 6mm for my Salomon ultra glide trail shoes which seem work brilliant for me with the often inconsistent foot strike and stride length that comes with trail running. Good work as always. Ian
I don't know if you listen to the Doctors of Running Podcast, but they had a very similar topic recently, specifically about zero drop shoes and whether that would change your foot strike. There's a 22 minute video posted on RUclips from their podcast about this topic: The Science of Running in a Zero Drop Shoe. They talk about your mechanics when you run in a high drop shoe down to a lower drop shoe and how some people adapt depending on the drop while others don't. The topic of rockered shoes in relation to drops was also covered. It's quite fascinating to listen to once you get past the goofy costumes they were wearing for this Halloween episode.
THE 4MM DROP FROM THE OLD LUNARACERS were great, i think the old air rift had 4mm also, if you heel strike all the time, then 10mm drop is ideal. but if you midfoot strike then 4-6mm drop is better, and if you forefoot strike then zero drop is ideal as its less weight as the foam in heel is missing, i would say low drop is great for jogging and your knees/hips
Musical interlude - Third Eye Blind. Just love those guys. Raced (first ever run too) in the Takumi Sen 8. New lifetime 8k PR. Didn't feel awesome and think I'd go Pro 2 for a 10k. But man lifetime PR at age 47 is good
Great videos Ed keep up the great work. Love your videos ! 👌 As an older runner now 51 !! I go towards higher drop heights to protect the calf’s , Achilles plus plantar issues I’ve been running since a young lad and weight is defiantly an issue with all running problems I used to be 9 stone wet 🤣😳and now being 12 and half stone it’s a massive difference and I do believe alternating shoes and high drops help. I believe your running style changes as well I never touched the heal when I was light weight but now I defiantly hit the heal more !!! 🤣👍
Great guide you've provided here! I love training in 5mm to work my calves. Then I race in the Endorphin Pro with 8mm so I can torque a little harder. Keep pushing!
I don’t quite agree with Running Warehouse’s “suggestion”. I went to Wiggle and found that their “suggestion” is more up my street and I’m a heel striker. Weight and biomechanics also play a factor. I have a pair of Clifton 7s and they feel better for me than the 10mm drop of the Pegasus 38 which feel ridiculously heavy and clunky. The Brooks Ghost was the only shoe with the biggest drop that didn’t feel like it. The Mizuno Wave Rider on the other hand, with a similar drop, felt clunkier. For now, I’ll stick with the 8mm and 5mm drop shoes and working my way towards a pair of 0 drop Altras.
I'm a beginner usually running 30-40Km per week and still wear the Boston 8 with 10mm drop. I rotate with the 6mm Rebel v2. What I feel in Boston is more aggressive but stable. However Rebel is more fun for Easy sessions. In my opinion, the softer the midsole will be optimal at lower drop as well as making it more stable. And firmer midsole+outsole will be better with a higher drop to minimize impact.
I think there is a backdrop to the... drop issue ;) The cushioning level. With the soft midsole how much of the perceived drop do we really have? It is weird to feel a negative drop in some shoes - like walking the Tempo Next%. Yet, it really works at speed. So speed is a second factor. And finally, when my speed "drops" - I'm heal striking (even more). Taking all that together... it's probably rubbish - i don't care about the drop too much :-D Yet, I only notice the difference in direct comparison, switching the shoes in the long runs: - going for a higher drop felt bad - I wanted to get rid of that extra pillow - going for a harder compound (but same drop) was really a bad idea - like attaching bricks to my feet! - same issue on trails, shifting the terrain from soft to hard - nice shoes turn into bricks, higher drop makes it worse. Lastly, a shoe that is described as a dull rubber brick by a forefoot striker maybe a supper rolling cruiser for the heal striker! My example? - Asics Nimbus. For me, the heal placed gel squishes gently, thus reducing the perceived drop + promoting the foot to roll forward. I bet the fore-/midfoot strikers are not as excited as me (as they miss an early part of a story, pretty much they don't know whats the plot) :-D
I am all over the place with the drop these days! I used to only run in lower drop shoes (used to use shoes like the Kinvara and Nike Free Run for everything back in the day). I heard or read something about how it was good to mix it up because different shoes wear you down differently. Maybe that was just rubbish from someone wanting to sell me lots of shoes lol. I think that my current choices have more to do with the foam. I like the Endorphin shift (4mm drop) as a recovery day shoe over the Invincible (9mm drop?) because after running in lots of fun soft shoes I like the firmer Endorphin shift to protect my legs. But if I didn't do a hard workout the day before the Invincible is a funner shoe. I like the lighter Rebel v2 for some of the shorter faster efforts (6mm) over the Tempo Next % (again 9 or 10mm drop), but I LOVE the tempo for...longer effort with a tempo pace sandwiched in between two shorter efforts or maybe longer progressive runs. But my favorite "do it all shoes" are probably still shoes like original Freedom Iso (4mm drop).
Used to rinse out the High Society CD in my car back in the mid-00s. Last summer caught up with all of their recent albums including Night Gallery which I had on repeat for a while. 👍🏻 Just seen there was a H25PITAL (25th Anniversary of Hospital Records) Compilation released last year. Need to check that out…
I'm a midfoot striker, so my heel does not compress much and I can clearly feel the higher drop in the RC Elite 1/2 and Vaporfly. My preference is a lower drop of 4-6mm. Anything below 3mm makes toe-off more difficult and works my calves on longer runs and anything above 8mm feels unnatural and forces my heel to scuff the road. Also there is no need to have an overbuild heel if you land midfoot, this just adds extra weight. btw. there are some running shoes without heels from "FBR", funny concept indeed.
Seems right Edd . For me a heelstrike purist (LoL bring it like it's a good thing maybe people won't call my bluff and my running form is just sheit) i do feel the higher drops seem to work well however them rockers help me greatly aswell , like the endospeeds
The drop of a shoe is as individual as the person wearing it. My hip and knee would say YES! It does matter. Went from having continuous issues with front if the hip and knee to having no issues once I transitioned to zero drop. For me and only me it makes a huge difference. And yes I've done strengthening exercises to help but the pain and issues went away when I switched but again that's me. I do find my foot strike is more centered under me now then before. Great subject ED! To be clear this works for me.
I'd have to say...yes yes it does. Tiny measurement, but shifts the stress point along the leg...the higher the distance the more it matters (rotating footwear with different drops)
I ran in high drop shoes for probably 15 years and then really got into running shoes and have tried everything. Since the beginning of “everything” I have had knee issues, Achilles issues, and now planter fasciitis. Some of this is age I’m sure, but I think switching drops has been bad for me.
Great commentary as usual. Vimazi believes lower drops are generally better for your running biomechanics. However, your heel shouldn't go negative (our achilles didn't evolve to do that!), so zero drop shoes are problematic. To ensure your heel doesn't go negative on impact, Vimazi builds in drops of 4mm, 5mm, and 6mm depending on the optimal pace zone the shoe's made for. The Vimazi Z30, for instance, is tuned for 3:15-4:10 min/km and has a 4mm drop because the midsole foam has more density and because most runners mid-foot to forefoot strike at that pace.
Shoes rotation makes the difference. Your body adapts and changing shoes does not really become an issue. I run years with at least 6 or more pairs rotation, with 10 to 0 drops shoes, I think it prevents injuries and makes you a more versatile runner.
I have two pairs of the Tempo Next% and absolutely love them. I find them responsive and easy to go fast in. The Saucony Endorphin Speed 2 is another favourite of mine which seems to work well and is effortless to run in, no matter the pace or distance. However, I recently bought the Alphafly and I'm really struggling with them. It's like I have to work twice as hard to run fast in them and uphill is just a joke. I should have gone for the Vaporfly Next% in hindsight. I thought as the Tempo is the training partner to the Alphafly that it would better serve me, but that's not the case so far.
I have around 15 shoes in my lineup, rotation depends on the season. Range of drop is from 4mm to 10mm. Never noticed anything different drop wise on shoes feel. I land on my forefoot and slightly supine, and the back of my foot almost never hits the ground anyway.
I think I land further back when I slow down ( unless I focus on cadence ) but I have little wear in the rear of my shoes. Probably due to my weight. But I feel little difference in many of the shoes drop wise to be honest.
Great topic! I have never tried the zero drop shoes, but from 4 to 10mm I also feel okay. I could sense the difference, but I don't know what works for me the best. 🧐
I have no problem running with shoes from 8mm to 12mm drop. A few years back I destroyed the rubber in the forefoot area of a Brooks Ghost 10 ... but today I can adapt and enjoy these kind shoe from that drop range at least I haven't tried yet high stack shoe with low drop like the Adistar or More V3 . Got to test a maximalist shoe sometime soon.
The drop issue has never really concerned me, honestly, though I'd venture a guess that some of my racing shoes over the decades are the only versions that could ever really qualify as "low drop," regardless of how that is defined. I've never tried Hoka nor Altra, and the later is surely not something I'd even consider, as they openly state that their shoes are made quite wide on purpose, insisting that everyone really needs this in their running shoes. I have skis for feet, and swimming in my shoes is not high on my priority list. As you've stated before, a lot of people get hung up on specs with their running shoes and this one is no different, only a newer phenomenon by my observation, and one that is probably overstated in its importance, IMO. If it fits well and feels good on pace, I'll wear it and if it's better than expected or beats what I've been using, another pair will be purchased in short order. As always, keep up the great content, Edd!
Not sure to be honest Edd my first running events did not start out until I was 48 and until 2019 they were OCR's so the speedcross 4 was my weapon of choice (11mm) , and my road shoes were Nike zoomfly's that I got cheap of amazon (possibly a 10mm drop). To be honest the gym and calisthenics were just as important given the nature of the challenge .. only switched to road running during covid due to old shoulder injuries making hanging obstacles close to impossible. Since 2020 the bulk of the shoes I have used have had low drops (Hoka's and Sketchers ) but have thrown in few with 8mm for race days. I am on the heavy side (though getting lighter) and supernate so I go through a lot of shoes due to accessive wear, to date only the Adistars have made it past 200 miles and they are uncomfortable tank shoes.
I prefer the Alphafly to the Next % and I'm a heel striker. I also can't run in 12mm drop shoes like the Ghost because around 10 years ago I develop a neuroma in my left foot and I find high drop shoes just irritate it now as it puts too much pressure on my forefoot. Means as a female I can't wear a lot of ASICS daily shoes as they have a 13mm drop. My favourite shoes right now are the Rebel V2 (6mm drop), Alphafly (4mm drop) and Novablast 2 (8mm drop). I do however not get along with Altra shoes. I find they make my feet very slappy on the ground because I find no matter what drop shoe I wear I still heel strike. It's just what my body does. I have changing and just got injured yet I don't get injured heel striking so I have stopped worrying about it now 🤣.
I think that Hyperion tempo brooks shoe it tried out was 8mm but could be wrong. The ultra I have is ok but find the tech a bit old hat and it feels like an old school gym shoe!
Just listened to the High Contrast version of Tobacco Road - not convinced. If you like the song check out David Lee Roth’s version from the Eat ‘em and smile album. The awesome Steve Vai/Billy Sheehan on guitar and bass respectively 🤟🤟
Looking at the abrasion spots on my shoes' outsoles, I think I mainly land mid foot. However, whenever I try to run in the Bondi 6, my ankles and achilles flares up. While they don't have the same issues when running in Nikes or Asics (Peg 38, React Infinity, Metaracer). That's my experience so far.
It is very important for injury prevention for me..less than 4-5mm feels like running uphill and takes more energy to maintain pace..more than 7-8mm will cause hip,knee,IT band issues..I love the alphafly so I put a 2-3mm heel cushion and it changes the feel of speed and effort..many of the best seem to be from 6-8mm agree with MY feet and legs..those over 8mm will soon have my old joints scream at me that I've lost my mine again..and to prove it something will get buggered up and I will have to pay for my misadventures..again..when I grow up maybe I will stop trying to go faster with higher drop shoes..but probably not.
@@EDDBUD in some shoes that have a very low heel it can be an issue..but for most shoes there is enough heel material to work..possibly for people that have quite thick orthotics it might be an issue..
The Drop also effects the muscles in your calves and legs, differently. If you normally run in 8+mm drop shoes and switch to a 6- you will feel in your legs, and vice versa. Some people it does not make a difference. Depends on how long you have worn that particular drop. Most people do not switch shoes that often so if you switch to a large change in drop from one shoe to another, you may not like it.
Drops matter to a point. Depends on mechanics or injury history. I have a friend who has had a tore ACL for years from when she played HS soccer/futbol(she is 37-38 now never wanted the surgery) She would wear Brooks to run in but they have a “12mm drop”. She said it felt like she would over stride then cause her knee to hyper extend and cause pain. I mentioned a lower drop shoe. she went to the extreme opposite to Altras. She loves them and no issues with her knee cuz she was striking more midfoot. I like options…I have from 4mm up to 12mm. Sweet spot is 6-8 for me.
To me it matters in a range. Drops of 10 mil and higher caused me pains on knees and big toe joints. Then I tried running on Altra shoes, they were super enjoyable until after about 4 months, my achilles tendons started screaming. Mach 4 (5mil) is fine to me, speed 2 (8 mil) is excellent. Hence I believe 4-8 are working with me, not too low and not too high. I agree soft midsole can compensate higher drop some. I did feel as if negative drops when running on Altra shoes sometimes. Btw, just bought a pair of NB 574 with a discount, it’s 12 mil drop from my measurement. I even can’t walk in them until I replaced with a pair of front only half insoles.
I have tried two Zero drop shoes and ended up having injuries in my calves both times. The Alpha Fly have worked really well on my last few marathons. I am more of a middle man on drops not too high not too low but in the middle is just right.
I started running (again), after a few years off (mostly due to covid), in June. For the last few years I've been trying to switch to a midfoot strike as I believe it's better for my joints. However, I've switched from knee injuries to achilles and calf injuries. However number 2, I'm still sticking with a midfoot strike as I believe once I've fully transitioned (and I'm careful) I'll be less likely to get injured. I tried the Vibram 5fingers, but those don't really work for me. I really need cushioning. So then I tried Altra which is working well for me. I've been running in the One V3 and I've just bought myself an Escalante 2.5 at double the price of the One V3. Strangely enough these more expensive shoes seem less comfortable than the V3 and I've been getting a few hotspots on the balls of my feet. Not quite blisters, but it felt like it. With that out of the way, my question is: Running with a midfoot strike, are zero drop shoes better than drop shoes for racing / training? Another channel has suggested that a drop shoe is better for racing as the zero drop shoes work the calf / ATs a bit more, which is not ideal while racing.
My daily is 8m drop. The shoe I race in is a 12m drop. The reason I race in it is not the drop but I prefer the forefoot in that shoe for racking. I believe the 8m drop takes some stress off my knees.
I was training for a marathon this past summer and I happened to injure my Achilles while running in the Hoka Carbon X2, the only low drop pair of runners I own. The injury could be due to the high mileage or the stiffer ride of the Carbon X2, not the drop, but it left me a scare of low drop shoes. That is why I ended up returning the Alphafly…
I think drop matters, but so far I have no problem running in shoes with 4-10mm drop because I always have shoes with various drops in my rotation. So I think I'm getting used to all of them, with 4-8mm drop the more comfortable ones for me. I do however have problems with 12mm drop shoes (brooks ghost was the suspect in causing an injury I had a few years back). I haven't tried a 0mm drop shoe for running. Altra don't sell their shoes here.
I’m still trying to find that sweet spot but it’s hard with the different density and compression of midsoles unless you’re a forefoot striker (I’m not). I think 6-8 is good for me but would go lower for shorter distance. I definitely stay away from the 12mm that seem to be in some Brooks.
And one more thing that I noticed is the carbon plates in some, I think it was either the metaspeed sky or edge or maybe the rc elite , the drop may be less but the carbon plate looks more 🤔
Great channel Ed. I recently bought new balance 1080/v11. I found the stitching inside them very uncomfortable. Did you ever notice anything like this ureself on the V11's or was it just a dodgy pair maybe?
Is it just on one foot? I find the inside stitching where the laces thread through the upper nearest the toes to be irritating on my right, on my novablast 2 and hoka Clifton 8. Must have a wierd mismatch thicker right forefoot near my toes. My feet are wideish and chunky ish, less so on left which means even if I order wide fit Hokas to male the forefoot fit, I have to cinch the laces really tight in a runners knot on the left to prevent heel slippage, but then I think that's mainly Hokas. Shame as I love rockers and 4mm drop for my gait.
There's a line of stitches on both sides of the shoe internally where the tongue meets the shoe. This rubs against your foot and is really uncomfortable. Pity because the sole is so comfortable. I wanted to love these NB shoes but changed them for a Pegasus 38
Presumably the geometry of a larger shoe (if it still has a 10mm drop) versus a smaller sized shoe of the same model will - if the drops are consistent - be more severe the smaller the shoe gets? A lower drop appears to ruin my calves and increase Achilles problems… so I wear Energy 3s round the house now (9mm drop)!
I spent the last half year running on Novablast 1 (10 mm drop iirc), and I am over them. High drop shoes begin to hurt my back over time. However, I'm prone to shin splints in lower drop shoes. I think I'm going to weirdly like the Mach Supersonic. In the meantime, it's the Altra Escalante for me. Say what you want about Altra, their foam lasts a long time.
@@EDDBUD I was coming off of Altra and Mach 4 when I first got the Novablast. It took some getting used to, ha ha, but I fell in love with the bounce anyway.
Would you say if you had a very compressive heel foam with a 10mm drop and you heel strike maybe that would make the shoe and midsole a zero drop shoe when running??
The plated and the airpod shoes, if the runner land on the heel, then what is the purpose of the tech because it not fully utilised by the runner? To get the best energy response from these shoes I think you need to land midfoot at least
The whole point of the plate is to stabilise the foot strike. Often the high need runners hit heel first with the midfoot under the hip as the weight transfers.
I guess Im not that discerning when it comes to drop. I adapt to whatever. I just actually had my first foray into "supershoes" with a recent purchase of the Adizero Pro 2 (at a steal!) and just walking around in them they felt insanely unstable but running in them that sensation disappears. They are crazy bouncy thats for sure. Doing a 10k race this Saturday in them, Im sure I'll be minutes faster than before. LOL
I actually don’t think enough is made of this. Heel strikers don’t need as much foam in the forefoot and forefoot strikers don’t need as much in the heel. And it can be a real detriment when people wear the wrong shoes. I’m a heel-mid foot striker and could never dream of wearing less than 8mm - Achilles will flare up and my balance is off. But I also don’t really care about stack height since I use the entire shoe through my stride.
Just wondering. If a size 8.5 has a 10mm drop, will a size 11 have the same 10mm drop? Cause if it does, doesn't that mean the gradient of the shoe will be lesser, giving the size 11 runner 'less propulsion' or on the other hand, the usually shorter women shoes give them 'more propulsion'? However, if the drop of the shoes is based on a consistent gradient instead, is 'drop' the correct way to measure running shoes?
I personally would class an aggressive drop as 0-5mm and make me feel I'm running faster, makes sense a traditional super seed sprint track spike and racing flat shoe, would be very low drop to get you on your toes
@@EDDBUD I think we must have different running styles in that sense. I'm gonna remind myself of the extreme and have a short run in my pair of altras next week
Hey Ed, I wonder... Wouldn't the slope between heel and front change based on the size of the shoe? Could small size shoes have a more aggressive drop, and vice versa, large size shoes have a less aggressive drop than advertised?
How can that be, Edd? If a shoe is long, the slope, or angle of the so-called drop, should be shallower than a small shoe, because the distance from the stack of the heel and the stack of the front would be further a part, no? From what I can tell, the difference of the angle of the drop is about 4% steeper for a woman size 37 (23cm long) than a men size 44 (28cm long), just comparing the angle for these distances from end to end, thus without accounting for where the slope starts and ends inside the shoe. That means the angle difference might be even more pronounced. Is that important? Maybe not. But women with smaller feet may experience a slightly more aggressive drop than man with longer feet. I could be wrong.
@@ericchevalley exactly what I keep rethinking, it's got to be a steeper slope in a shorter shoe hasn't it? I have stubby toes but broad mid and forefeet, like a hobbit. So I think drops and rockers matter quite a lot. I prefer a low drop and rocker
Drop matters. Low to zero drop shoes require less flexion at the mid/forefoot when lifting the heel. A mid/forefoot runner who uses a higher drop shoe will be forced to flex their mid/forefoot even more when lifting the heel. This causes added strain on the mid/forfoot area when using such shoes. Fyi, I have shoes of various drops: the zero drop Altra shoes are my go to shoes.
I've just been looking at footage of marathon runners from the 80's and 90's and the footwear they used were basically flats by todays standards, did they get more injuries than today's athletes?
Being runner/jogger with a lack of lower leg flexibility 10 -12 mil drop has always been my standard. So much so, that back when Saucony (the brand of running shoes I started with: Grid, Ride, and Triumph) transitioned from 12 mil to 8 mil drop across the board, I had to move on. I tried the new Saucony's once but found that 8 mil drop to be very uncomfortable. So, it's been Asics or Brooks (10 - 12 mil drop) ever since. Maybe I'm the exception and it was my abrupt transition, but I just don't find lower drop shoes comfortable?
I'm not sure if the drop is that important for me but I understand that if you run on your forefoot the stack of the forefoot is more important than the stack of the heel. If Nike would build my individual ideal perfect running shoe it would be the ZoomX Invincible with 3 mm more forefoot and 3 mm less heel; that would be a 3mm drop Invincible then.
Never really paid much attention to the drop, I'm guessing I must buy shoes that are fairly average, 8mm or so. Tobacco Road? That's where Albert Trotter lived as a kid.
I don’t think the drop matters at all TBH. Easy day shoes such as Novablast2 (8mm) and 1080v10 (10mm) has high drop so you would say maybe that’s it, but then my speed shoes also have high drops Endorphin Speed (8mm) and Hyperion Tempo (8mm). I also have easy/up tempo shoes with conservative drops Beacon2 (6mm) and Mach4 (6mm). The conclusion? The only consistent thing seems to be the inconsistency.
If you can’t run the way humans evolved to run without injuring yourself, work on fixing the problem instead of just finding a thicker heel to cushion your busted form! I kid but really. Everyone should have a zero drop shoe in their rotation that they use often to exercise those muscles.
Doctors of Running covered this topic in detail. The stack does play a roll when you look at the science behind it. A lot of it depends on your mechanics. In general, the lower the stack height the more forces are being transferred to the foot, ankle, achilles, and calves. The higher the stack height the more forces are transferred to the knees, hips, and lower back. 8mm is the sweet spot for me and my mechanics. Finding the right stack height for you can be a game changer to help reduce injury and fatigue.
I run in a rotation of shoes of varying drops in a range of 4-10 mm and haven’t found drop to make as much difference as other factors such as midsole density/response/compressibility, midsole geometry, upper support (heel/midfoot lockdown) and so on. All these variables interact with each other and are in turn influenced by the weight of the runner, and how that person’s gait and form affect their impact on landing. Because a couple of mm difference can be cancelled out by a hard landing of a heavy runner on a softer foam, it’s impossible to separate all these elements. It comes down to finding a shoe that works for you, and that can only be determined by trial and error. I feel fortunate to be among many here for whom a variety of shoe metrics works. Ideally the little variables among those contribute to minimizing my risk of repetitive motion injury. Martha
Another thing to consider is "effective stack height" which is the offset when the heel and forefoot compress differently. An example I'm familiar with is endo speed/pro which were designed to ride like a lower drop (source saucony blog)
I’m sure it’s a little down to the plate too. The shape almost dictates the actually drop in those shoes. 👍🏼
Yeah, a very soft shoe may result in NEGATIVE drop as it compresses for heel strikers. And don't forget that paces result in different footstrike; the slower you go the more toward the heel you land, the faster you go, the more toward the forefoot, all the way to sprinting, where you're only on your toes. So, finding a Goldilocks shoe that is "good" from ez run to tempo run paces becomes more difficult.
@@tazpengra That's why Vimazi is making shoes tuned to the pace you run. Faster running means greater forces, so Vimazi adjusts the density of the midsole to account for those forces. You get better cushioning and the most efficient push off from the forefoot. You also ensure that your achilles doesn't go negative on impact. Vimazi believes lower drops are generally better as long as you keep the heel in positive territory.
Do you heel strike Ed?
As a midfoot/forefoot striker, drop has become my number 1 metric when considering running shoes. I find anything above 6mm forces me to land higher on my toes to avoid my heel touching the ground (this tells me I land on my forefoot with a relatively low angle). While I can see how this could have the psychological effect encouraging you to move faster, it puts undue stress on my ankles and toes over time. If one trains correctly I don’t think you need the artificial slope of a high drop shoe to go fast and ultimately I think a low drop shoe will be better for my body in the long run.
For heel strikers the complete opposite is true and more cushion is necessary to protect your heel since your calf can’t soften the impact. As Ed points out, more cushion and a steeper drop are not equal. I almost think a higher drop encourages a heel strike, which I believe has been clinically proven to be less efficient.
I used to be a hard heel striker and transitioned to midfoot/forefoot striking. It took about 8 months of retraining to get used to it, but eliminated all of my knee pain.
Curious to hear other peoples thoughts. Anyone else an ex-heel striker?
Heel striker and supinator here. I overthink heel-to-toe and glad you brought it up. Years ago, when I tried on some Hokas (4mm drop), they felt really good and far more natural for me. I still use the Carbon X V1 (5mm drop) here and there and it feels great. For races I use the Vaporfly Next% V1 and Adizero Adios Pro V1, about the same drop (~8mm), and they feel good. Just picked up a pair of ASICS Magic Speed (5mm drop) and excited to try them out. I think in general low drop just feels better to me even though I'm a heel striker.
Interesting topic Ed and comments. I do feel after all these years that if it works for you don’t try and fix it or change for change sake. I won’t look at anything below 8mm drop for my road shoes but come down slightly to 6mm for my Salomon ultra glide trail shoes which seem work brilliant for me with the often inconsistent foot strike and stride length that comes with trail running.
Good work as always. Ian
I don't know if you listen to the Doctors of Running Podcast, but they had a very similar topic recently, specifically about zero drop shoes and whether that would change your foot strike. There's a 22 minute video posted on RUclips from their podcast about this topic: The Science of Running in a Zero Drop Shoe. They talk about your mechanics when you run in a high drop shoe down to a lower drop shoe and how some people adapt depending on the drop while others don't. The topic of rockered shoes in relation to drops was also covered. It's quite fascinating to listen to once you get past the goofy costumes they were wearing for this Halloween episode.
I really enjoy the feeling of the 4mm drop on the Peregrine and the Rebel V2, but it's harder on my achilles and calves. 8mm is a sweetspot for me.
THE 4MM DROP FROM THE OLD LUNARACERS were great, i think the old air rift had 4mm also, if you heel strike all the time, then 10mm drop is ideal. but if you midfoot strike then 4-6mm drop is better, and if you forefoot strike then zero drop is ideal as its less weight as the foam in heel is missing, i would say low drop is great for jogging and your knees/hips
Musical interlude - Third Eye Blind. Just love those guys. Raced (first ever run too) in the Takumi Sen 8. New lifetime 8k PR. Didn't feel awesome and think I'd go Pro 2 for a 10k. But man lifetime PR at age 47 is good
Edd just checked out Hi Contrast. Class. Love that mix of synth beats an the sort of 80s futuristic notes. I could listen to them while running easy.
Great videos Ed keep up the great work.
Love your videos ! 👌
As an older runner now 51 !!
I go towards higher drop heights to protect the calf’s , Achilles plus plantar issues
I’ve been running since a young lad and weight is defiantly an issue with all running problems I used to be 9 stone wet 🤣😳and now being 12 and half stone it’s a massive difference and I do believe alternating shoes and high drops help.
I believe your running style changes as well I never touched the heal when I was light weight but now I defiantly hit the heal more !!! 🤣👍
Great guide you've provided here! I love training in 5mm to work my calves. Then I race in the Endorphin Pro with 8mm so I can torque a little harder. Keep pushing!
Yes I agree here. Training in the non plated shoes has worked a treat. Now feels like a “treat” to use those!
I don’t quite agree with Running Warehouse’s “suggestion”. I went to Wiggle and found that their “suggestion” is more up my street and I’m a heel striker. Weight and biomechanics also play a factor.
I have a pair of Clifton 7s and they feel better for me than the 10mm drop of the Pegasus 38 which feel ridiculously heavy and clunky.
The Brooks Ghost was the only shoe with the biggest drop that didn’t feel like it. The Mizuno Wave Rider on the other hand, with a similar drop, felt clunkier.
For now, I’ll stick with the 8mm and 5mm drop shoes and working my way towards a pair of 0 drop Altras.
Great album Edd. Rinsed it to bits.
I'm a beginner usually running 30-40Km per week and still wear the Boston 8 with 10mm drop. I rotate with the 6mm Rebel v2. What I feel in Boston is more aggressive but stable. However Rebel is more fun for Easy sessions.
In my opinion, the softer the midsole will be optimal at lower drop as well as making it more stable. And firmer midsole+outsole will be better with a higher drop to minimize impact.
I think there is a backdrop to the... drop issue ;) The cushioning level. With the soft midsole how much of the perceived drop do we really have?
It is weird to feel a negative drop in some shoes - like walking the Tempo Next%. Yet, it really works at speed. So speed is a second factor.
And finally, when my speed "drops" - I'm heal striking (even more).
Taking all that together... it's probably rubbish - i don't care about the drop too much :-D
Yet, I only notice the difference in direct comparison, switching the shoes in the long runs:
- going for a higher drop felt bad - I wanted to get rid of that extra pillow
- going for a harder compound (but same drop) was really a bad idea - like attaching bricks to my feet!
- same issue on trails, shifting the terrain from soft to hard - nice shoes turn into bricks, higher drop makes it worse.
Lastly, a shoe that is described as a dull rubber brick by a forefoot striker maybe a supper rolling cruiser for the heal striker! My example? - Asics Nimbus.
For me, the heal placed gel squishes gently, thus reducing the perceived drop + promoting the foot to roll forward.
I bet the fore-/midfoot strikers are not as excited as me (as they miss an early part of a story, pretty much they don't know whats the plot) :-D
I am all over the place with the drop these days! I used to only run in lower drop shoes (used to use shoes like the Kinvara and Nike Free Run for everything back in the day). I heard or read something about how it was good to mix it up because different shoes wear you down differently. Maybe that was just rubbish from someone wanting to sell me lots of shoes lol. I think that my current choices have more to do with the foam. I like the Endorphin shift (4mm drop) as a recovery day shoe over the Invincible (9mm drop?) because after running in lots of fun soft shoes I like the firmer Endorphin shift to protect my legs. But if I didn't do a hard workout the day before the Invincible is a funner shoe. I like the lighter Rebel v2 for some of the shorter faster efforts (6mm) over the Tempo Next % (again 9 or 10mm drop), but I LOVE the tempo for...longer effort with a tempo pace sandwiched in between two shorter efforts or maybe longer progressive runs. But my favorite "do it all shoes" are probably still shoes like original Freedom Iso (4mm drop).
Used to rinse out the High Society CD in my car back in the mid-00s. Last summer caught up with all of their recent albums including Night Gallery which I had on repeat for a while. 👍🏻
Just seen there was a H25PITAL (25th Anniversary of Hospital Records) Compilation released last year. Need to check that out…
I'm a midfoot striker, so my heel does not compress much and I can clearly feel the higher drop in the RC Elite 1/2 and Vaporfly. My preference is a lower drop of 4-6mm. Anything below 3mm makes toe-off more difficult and works my calves on longer runs and anything above 8mm feels unnatural and forces my heel to scuff the road. Also there is no need to have an overbuild heel if you land midfoot, this just adds extra weight.
btw. there are some running shoes without heels from "FBR", funny concept indeed.
Seems right Edd . For me a heelstrike purist (LoL bring it like it's a good thing maybe people won't call my bluff and my running form is just sheit) i do feel the higher drops seem to work well however them rockers help me greatly aswell , like the endospeeds
Thumbs up for "heelstrike purist" joke 😅
@@axlrosea675 thanks . It's the sad truth for me tho lol 😆 but still funny
The drop of a shoe is as individual as the person wearing it. My hip and knee would say YES! It does matter. Went from having continuous issues with front if the hip and knee to having no issues once I transitioned to zero drop. For me and only me it makes a huge difference. And yes I've done strengthening exercises to help but the pain and issues went away when I switched but again that's me. I do find my foot strike is more centered under me now then before. Great subject ED! To be clear this works for me.
I think it works for you
I'd have to say...yes yes it does. Tiny measurement, but shifts the stress point along the leg...the higher the distance the more it matters (rotating footwear with different drops)
I ran in high drop shoes for probably 15 years and then really got into running shoes and have tried everything. Since the beginning of “everything” I have had knee issues, Achilles issues, and now planter fasciitis. Some of this is age I’m sure, but I think switching drops has been bad for me.
Great commentary as usual. Vimazi believes lower drops are generally better for your running biomechanics. However, your heel shouldn't go negative (our achilles didn't evolve to do that!), so zero drop shoes are problematic. To ensure your heel doesn't go negative on impact, Vimazi builds in drops of 4mm, 5mm, and 6mm depending on the optimal pace zone the shoe's made for. The Vimazi Z30, for instance, is tuned for 3:15-4:10 min/km and has a 4mm drop because the midsole foam has more density and because most runners mid-foot to forefoot strike at that pace.
Shoes rotation makes the difference. Your body adapts and changing shoes does not really become an issue. I run years with at least 6 or more pairs rotation, with 10 to 0 drops shoes, I think it prevents injuries and makes you a more versatile runner.
100% agree with this
Yes varying the shoe drop works for me too.
I have two pairs of the Tempo Next% and absolutely love them. I find them responsive and easy to go fast in. The Saucony Endorphin Speed 2 is another favourite of mine which seems to work well and is effortless to run in, no matter the pace or distance. However, I recently bought the Alphafly and I'm really struggling with them. It's like I have to work twice as hard to run fast in them and uphill is just a joke. I should have gone for the Vaporfly Next% in hindsight. I thought as the Tempo is the training partner to the Alphafly that it would better serve me, but that's not the case so far.
New Balance themselves still are suggesting an 8mm drop on the RCEv2, depending on what colour you click 😅 glad I wasn’t the only one confused by that
Interesting! I would suggest the 8mm could be right. Hard to tell on my pair without a laser. 🤣
I have around 15 shoes in my lineup, rotation depends on the season. Range of drop is from 4mm to 10mm. Never noticed anything different drop wise on shoes feel. I land on my forefoot and slightly supine, and the back of my foot almost never hits the ground anyway.
I think I land further back when I slow down ( unless I focus on cadence ) but I have little wear in the rear of my shoes. Probably due to my weight. But I feel little difference in many of the shoes drop wise to be honest.
Great topic! I have never tried the zero drop shoes, but from 4 to 10mm I also feel okay. I could sense the difference, but I don't know what works for me the best. 🧐
I have no problem running with shoes from 8mm to 12mm drop.
A few years back I destroyed the rubber in the forefoot area of a Brooks Ghost 10 ... but today I can adapt and enjoy these kind shoe from that drop range at least
I haven't tried yet high stack shoe with low drop like the Adistar or More V3 . Got to test a maximalist shoe sometime soon.
The high drop in my sneakers contributed to my toe capsulitis and high drop in running shoes cause knee pain and in worse cases also lower back pain.
The drop issue has never really concerned me, honestly, though I'd venture a guess that some of my racing shoes over the decades are the only versions that could ever really qualify as "low drop," regardless of how that is defined. I've never tried Hoka nor Altra, and the later is surely not something I'd even consider, as they openly state that their shoes are made quite wide on purpose, insisting that everyone really needs this in their running shoes. I have skis for feet, and swimming in my shoes is not high on my priority list.
As you've stated before, a lot of people get hung up on specs with their running shoes and this one is no different, only a newer phenomenon by my observation, and one that is probably overstated in its importance, IMO. If it fits well and feels good on pace, I'll wear it and if it's better than expected or beats what I've been using, another pair will be purchased in short order.
As always, keep up the great content, Edd!
Only the alphafly had really felt quite different to me. Almost a negative drop! Thanks for tuning in and for the kind comments
Prime X is 8.5mm drop. Love the channel. Keep them coming.
But is it? Adidas website is not a good source.
Not sure to be honest Edd my first running events did not start out until I was 48 and until 2019 they were OCR's so the speedcross 4 was my weapon of choice (11mm) , and my road shoes were Nike zoomfly's that I got cheap of amazon (possibly a 10mm drop). To be honest the gym and calisthenics were just as important given the nature of the challenge .. only switched to road running during covid due to old shoulder injuries making hanging obstacles close to impossible. Since 2020 the bulk of the shoes I have used have had low drops (Hoka's and Sketchers ) but have thrown in few with 8mm for race days. I am on the heavy side (though getting lighter) and supernate so I go through a lot of shoes due to accessive wear, to date only the Adistars have made it past 200 miles and they are uncomfortable tank shoes.
I prefer the Alphafly to the Next % and I'm a heel striker. I also can't run in 12mm drop shoes like the Ghost because around 10 years ago I develop a neuroma in my left foot and I find high drop shoes just irritate it now as it puts too much pressure on my forefoot. Means as a female I can't wear a lot of ASICS daily shoes as they have a 13mm drop. My favourite shoes right now are the Rebel V2 (6mm drop), Alphafly (4mm drop) and Novablast 2 (8mm drop). I do however not get along with Altra shoes. I find they make my feet very slappy on the ground because I find no matter what drop shoe I wear I still heel strike. It's just what my body does. I have changing and just got injured yet I don't get injured heel striking so I have stopped worrying about it now 🤣.
I think that Hyperion tempo brooks shoe it tried out was 8mm but could be wrong. The ultra I have is ok but find the tech a bit old hat and it feels like an old school gym shoe!
Just listened to the High Contrast version of Tobacco Road - not convinced. If you like the song check out David Lee Roth’s version from the Eat ‘em and smile album. The awesome Steve Vai/Billy Sheehan on guitar and bass respectively 🤟🤟
I prefer the 4mm drop, about 27-23. Always feels the most natural for me anyway for general use.
Looking at the abrasion spots on my shoes' outsoles, I think I mainly land mid foot. However, whenever I try to run in the Bondi 6, my ankles and achilles flares up. While they don't have the same issues when running in Nikes or Asics (Peg 38, React Infinity, Metaracer). That's my experience so far.
It is very important for injury prevention for me..less than 4-5mm feels like running uphill and takes more energy to maintain pace..more than 7-8mm will cause hip,knee,IT band issues..I love the alphafly so I put a 2-3mm heel cushion and it changes the feel of speed and effort..many of the best seem to be from 6-8mm agree with MY feet and legs..those over 8mm will soon have my old joints scream at me that I've lost my mine again..and to prove it something will get buggered up and I will have to pay for my misadventures..again..when I grow up maybe I will stop trying to go faster with higher drop shoes..but probably not.
Interesting you varied the drop on the alphafly. Any heel slip issues with that?
@@EDDBUD in some shoes that have a very low heel it can be an issue..but for most shoes there is enough heel material to work..possibly for people that have quite thick orthotics it might be an issue..
The Drop also effects the muscles in your calves and legs, differently. If you normally run in 8+mm drop shoes and switch to a 6- you will feel in your legs, and vice versa. Some people it does not make a difference. Depends on how long you have worn that particular drop. Most people do not switch shoes that often so if you switch to a large change in drop from one shoe to another, you may not like it.
Drops matter to a point. Depends on mechanics or injury history.
I have a friend who has had a tore ACL for years from when she played HS soccer/futbol(she is 37-38 now never wanted the surgery) She would wear Brooks to run in but they have a “12mm drop”. She said it felt like she would over stride then cause her knee to hyper extend and cause pain. I mentioned a lower drop shoe. she went to the extreme opposite to Altras. She loves them and no issues with her knee cuz she was striking more midfoot.
I like options…I have from 4mm up to 12mm. Sweet spot is 6-8 for me.
The primex feels lower than it is. Absolutely though it was a 5 or 6 mm. Was surprised to see it was a 10!
To me it matters in a range.
Drops of 10 mil and higher caused me pains on knees and big toe joints. Then I tried running on Altra shoes, they were super enjoyable until after about 4 months, my achilles tendons started screaming. Mach 4 (5mil) is fine to me, speed 2 (8 mil) is excellent. Hence I believe 4-8 are working with me, not too low and not too high. I agree soft midsole can compensate higher drop some. I did feel as if negative drops when running on Altra shoes sometimes.
Btw, just bought a pair of NB 574 with a discount, it’s 12 mil drop from my measurement. I even can’t walk in them until I replaced with a pair of front only half insoles.
12mm! Blimey. Not tried one like that.
@@EDDBUD some mizuno and brooks running shoes do have a 12 drop.
I have tried two Zero drop shoes and ended up having injuries in my calves both times. The Alpha Fly have worked really well on my last few marathons. I am more of a middle man on drops not too high not too low but in the middle is just right.
I think this is a very logical approach to it all Raymond 👍🏼
I started running (again), after a few years off (mostly due to covid), in June. For the last few years I've been trying to switch to a midfoot strike as I believe it's better for my joints. However, I've switched from knee injuries to achilles and calf injuries. However number 2, I'm still sticking with a midfoot strike as I believe once I've fully transitioned (and I'm careful) I'll be less likely to get injured. I tried the Vibram 5fingers, but those don't really work for me. I really need cushioning. So then I tried Altra which is working well for me. I've been running in the One V3 and I've just bought myself an Escalante 2.5 at double the price of the One V3. Strangely enough these more expensive shoes seem less comfortable than the V3 and I've been getting a few hotspots on the balls of my feet. Not quite blisters, but it felt like it.
With that out of the way, my question is: Running with a midfoot strike, are zero drop shoes better than drop shoes for racing / training? Another channel has suggested that a drop shoe is better for racing as the zero drop shoes work the calf / ATs a bit more, which is not ideal while racing.
For a midfoot strike I would go with some cushion. If you are going from heel to midfoot the cushion will still be of use.
My daily is 8m drop. The shoe I race in is a 12m drop. The reason I race in it is not the drop but I prefer the forefoot in that shoe for racking. I believe the 8m drop takes some stress off my knees.
I think maybe it varies the points of pressure on the legs.
I was training for a marathon this past summer and I happened to injure my Achilles while running in the Hoka Carbon X2, the only low drop pair of runners I own.
The injury could be due to the high mileage or the stiffer ride of the Carbon X2, not the drop, but it left me a scare of low drop shoes. That is why I ended up returning the Alphafly…
When i run in 8mm+ im a healstriker. 6mm or lower im a midfoot-striker. I prefer 4-6 mm. (Typical pace 5.30min/km)
Yes I found with a 5mm drop I’m running more smoothly regardless of speed. The higher drops for me these days are a chore.
I think drop matters, but so far I have no problem running in shoes with 4-10mm drop because I always have shoes with various drops in my rotation.
So I think I'm getting used to all of them, with 4-8mm drop the more comfortable ones for me.
I do however have problems with 12mm drop shoes (brooks ghost was the suspect in causing an injury I had a few years back).
I haven't tried a 0mm drop shoe for running. Altra don't sell their shoes here.
I’m still trying to find that sweet spot but it’s hard with the different density and compression of midsoles unless you’re a forefoot striker (I’m not). I think 6-8 is good for me but would go lower for shorter distance. I definitely stay away from the 12mm that seem to be in some Brooks.
And one more thing that I noticed is the carbon plates in some, I think it was either the metaspeed sky or edge or maybe the rc elite , the drop may be less but the carbon plate looks more 🤔
Yes I wonder about this. The plate clearly dictates a little as to the actual drop of the shoe due to the insanely soft foam.
Great channel Ed. I recently bought new balance 1080/v11. I found the stitching inside them very uncomfortable. Did you ever notice anything like this ureself on the V11's or was it just a dodgy pair maybe?
The 10 I had to relace to avoid that. But the 11 didn’t have the same problem.
Is it just on one foot? I find the inside stitching where the laces thread through the upper nearest the toes to be irritating on my right, on my novablast 2 and hoka Clifton 8. Must have a wierd mismatch thicker right forefoot near my toes. My feet are wideish and chunky ish, less so on left which means even if I order wide fit Hokas to male the forefoot fit, I have to cinch the laces really tight in a runners knot on the left to prevent heel slippage, but then I think that's mainly Hokas. Shame as I love rockers and 4mm drop for my gait.
There's a line of stitches on both sides of the shoe internally where the tongue meets the shoe. This rubs against your foot and is really uncomfortable. Pity because the sole is so comfortable. I wanted to love these NB shoes but changed them for a Pegasus 38
Yes eddbudd, love High Conty
Presumably the geometry of a larger shoe (if it still has a 10mm drop) versus a smaller sized shoe of the same model will - if the drops are consistent - be more severe the smaller the shoe gets?
A lower drop appears to ruin my calves and increase Achilles problems… so I wear Energy 3s round the house now (9mm drop)!
I'm a heel striker and feel much better in a high heel drop. Otherwise I get ankle pain.
I've often wondered whether the drop matters much... Even a 6mm difference between 10mm and 4mm doesn't seem to be huge when you look at it.
Yes it doesn’t seem all that much at all. Maybe accumulation over the miles? To me it’s more about the fit and underfoot foam.
I spent the last half year running on Novablast 1 (10 mm drop iirc), and I am over them. High drop shoes begin to hurt my back over time. However, I'm prone to shin splints in lower drop shoes. I think I'm going to weirdly like the Mach Supersonic. In the meantime, it's the Altra Escalante for me. Say what you want about Altra, their foam lasts a long time.
The zoom fly 4 and the firmer foam hurts my feet. But found the novablast quite flat really. Maybe production variances.
@@EDDBUD That's funny because my first Novablast were a lot, lot bouncier than my second pair.
@@hugo9846 I meant the midsole drop. The shoe ( both versions ) is really bouncy.
@@EDDBUD I was coming off of Altra and Mach 4 when I first got the Novablast. It took some getting used to, ha ha, but I fell in love with the bounce anyway.
Just a trivial question. 🙂
Why do you refer to the Vaporflies as the Next%? Aren't the Alphaflies also Next%? Just curious.
Just seems to state the difference a little better. No real reason
It matters for me. A history of achilles issues has led me to the point of discovering a 10-12mm drop is best to protect the achilles.
Good that you have a way to resolve the issue 👍🏼
Would you say if you had a very compressive heel foam with a 10mm drop and you heel strike maybe that would make the shoe and midsole a zero drop shoe when running??
This is my question. The foam isn’t firm and rigid as per older shoe. It compressive insanely easily as such does the drop matter anymore?
The plated and the airpod shoes, if the runner land on the heel, then what is the purpose of the tech because it not fully utilised by the runner? To get the best energy response from these shoes I think you need to land midfoot at least
The whole point of the plate is to stabilise the foot strike. Often the high need runners hit heel first with the midfoot under the hip as the weight transfers.
The only time I’ve ever noticed the drop making a difference is when I tried a zero drop shoe.
Yes same here. Though I have 2 zero drop shoes one of them doesn’t even feel like that at all.
I guess Im not that discerning when it comes to drop. I adapt to whatever. I just actually had my first foray into "supershoes" with a recent purchase of the Adizero Pro 2 (at a steal!) and just walking around in them they felt insanely unstable but running in them that sensation disappears. They are crazy bouncy thats for sure. Doing a 10k race this Saturday in them, Im sure I'll be minutes faster than before. LOL
I actually don’t think enough is made of this. Heel strikers don’t need as much foam in the forefoot and forefoot strikers don’t need as much in the heel. And it can be a real detriment when people wear the wrong shoes. I’m a heel-mid foot striker and could never dream of wearing less than 8mm - Achilles will flare up and my balance is off. But I also don’t really care about stack height since I use the entire shoe through my stride.
Just wondering. If a size 8.5 has a 10mm drop, will a size 11 have the same 10mm drop? Cause if it does, doesn't that mean the gradient of the shoe will be lesser, giving the size 11 runner 'less propulsion' or on the other hand, the usually shorter women shoes give them 'more propulsion'?
However, if the drop of the shoes is based on a consistent gradient instead, is 'drop' the correct way to measure running shoes?
I personally would class an aggressive drop as 0-5mm and make me feel I'm running faster, makes sense a traditional super seed sprint track spike and racing flat shoe, would be very low drop to get you on your toes
Feels the other way to me Jon
@@EDDBUD I think we must have different running styles in that sense. I'm gonna remind myself of the extreme and have a short run in my pair of altras next week
When I use the Alphafly there is a low drop. I'm always in pain.
The same as my buddy Kev. 👍🏼
Hey Ed, I wonder... Wouldn't the slope between heel and front change based on the size of the shoe? Could small size shoes have a more aggressive drop, and vice versa, large size shoes have a less aggressive drop than advertised?
Very interesting. I'll wait for responses.
They seem pretty standard. Larger size. Same drop.
How can that be, Edd? If a shoe is long, the slope, or angle of the so-called drop, should be shallower than a small shoe, because the distance from the stack of the heel and the stack of the front would be further a part, no? From what I can tell, the difference of the angle of the drop is about 4% steeper for a woman size 37 (23cm long) than a men size 44 (28cm long), just comparing the angle for these distances from end to end, thus without accounting for where the slope starts and ends inside the shoe. That means the angle difference might be even more pronounced. Is that important? Maybe not. But women with smaller feet may experience a slightly more aggressive drop than man with longer feet. I could be wrong.
@@ericchevalley exactly what I keep rethinking, it's got to be a steeper slope in a shorter shoe hasn't it? I have stubby toes but broad mid and forefeet, like a hobbit. So I think drops and rockers matter quite a lot. I prefer a low drop and rocker
Main issue is drop vs shoe size (lenght). Drop in mms or %.
I dont like low drop. 0-5 mm make my Iliopas hurt! Heel strikeer 🏃🏻♂️❤️👍🏻🇳🇴
Drop matters.
Low to zero drop shoes require less flexion at the mid/forefoot when lifting the heel.
A mid/forefoot runner who uses a higher drop shoe will be forced to flex their mid/forefoot even more when lifting the heel. This causes added strain on the mid/forfoot area when using such shoes.
Fyi, I have shoes of various drops: the zero drop Altra shoes are my go to shoes.
That's why they put rockers in
I've just been looking at footage of marathon runners from the 80's and 90's and the footwear they used were basically flats by todays standards, did they get more injuries than today's athletes?
6-8mm da best
Being runner/jogger with a lack of lower leg flexibility 10 -12 mil drop has always been my standard. So much so, that back when Saucony (the brand of running shoes I started with: Grid, Ride, and Triumph) transitioned from 12 mil to 8 mil drop across the board, I had to move on. I tried the new Saucony's once but found that 8 mil drop to be very uncomfortable. So, it's been Asics or Brooks (10 - 12 mil drop) ever since. Maybe I'm the exception and it was my abrupt transition, but I just don't find lower drop shoes comfortable?
I'm not sure if the drop is that important for me but I understand that if you run on your forefoot the stack of the forefoot is more important than the stack of the heel. If Nike would build my individual ideal perfect running shoe it would be the ZoomX Invincible with 3 mm more forefoot and 3 mm less heel; that would be a 3mm drop Invincible then.
Bit late today, Ed? Back to school tomorrow right?
Been feeling rough all day. Managed to get the video done 🤧
High Drop caused my calf injury (New Balance 880).. But Altra makes me run like a duck.. Very unnatural.
Oo
A silver finish 🥈
Never really paid much attention to the drop, I'm guessing I must buy shoes that are fairly average, 8mm or so. Tobacco Road? That's where Albert Trotter lived as a kid.
Had to include that track as it’s a classic episode. 🤣
I don’t think the drop matters at all TBH.
Easy day shoes such as Novablast2 (8mm) and 1080v10 (10mm) has high drop so you would say maybe that’s it, but then my speed shoes also have high drops Endorphin Speed (8mm) and Hyperion Tempo (8mm). I also have easy/up tempo shoes with conservative drops Beacon2 (6mm) and Mach4 (6mm).
The conclusion? The only consistent thing seems to be the inconsistency.
I can’t help but agree with you Tony. Some shoes feel like they have more drop than they actually do.
First
Gold! 🥇
Fastest gun in the west!!!
If you can’t run the way humans evolved to run without injuring yourself, work on fixing the problem instead of just finding a thicker heel to cushion your busted form!
I kid but really. Everyone should have a zero drop shoe in their rotation that they use often to exercise those muscles.
Bronze?
Bronze podium place 🥉