Hey you've used Crystal Lake's Apollo for the generic metalcore genre twice now. They have a vast library of songs, some that are quite technical. Perhaps more research needs to be done. They aren't an architects clone etc.
Fin you totally dropped the ball here. Here is exactly what you did wrong. You should of included the face reactions in the corner of the video of people like Misha Mansoor , Adam Neely, Herman Li, Sarah Longfield and all the other Prog youtubers react to all you "hurtful comments". I am outraged how not "progressive" enough of a youtuber making such an easy video. 🤣🤣🤣
It's funny cuz that's what a lot of prog metal fans are like They're like "black metal fans are so snobbish ugh" then they jump on people cause they dare insult dream theatre
I agree that just because a song is complex and hard to play, that does not make it good. But the opposite must also be said: Just because a song is catchy, does not make it a good song.
A song played 10+ years after the release is probably considered a good song. A number one song forgotten a month later is probably not a good song. A modern prog song is forgotten while listening to it.
@@rockguy8362 I don't think anyone wants to watch the Baha Men perform "who let the dogs out" anymore...maybe at the county fair. Ok, jokes aside, like Fin said, they each have their place.
I think these complaints apply much more to Power Metal than Prog Metal...because I would never describe actual Prog bands like TOOL, Haken, Leprous, and Opeth as “fast guitar” bands
As someone who listens to quite a lot of Power Metal, I would say that the genre being denoted as the "fast guitar" genre isn't always true either. Quite a few of the more prominent songs by bands like Jag Panzer and Running Wild have a more "mid-paced" tempo to them. Even Helloween - who are well known for bringing up many of the lead guitar 16th note flurries that the genre is now famous for, usually have song tempos that noticeably vary from song to song on any one album. However, if you're talking about bands like Dragonforce, then I definitely agree (though that's not to say I don't enjoy some of of the bands that indulge in the more "technical" side of the genre).
I think that was the point he was trying to make when he mentions how "progressive" has become a label rather than a genre of music. Leprous is one of my favorite bands, same with Porcupine Tree.. but both (imo) don't really follow the Dream Theater or Periphery formula of what people think as "progressive" nowadays. I agree though, not all prog bands are like that.
@@rjchristopher4039 I should also mention I'm a huge power metal nerd, too. Kamelot being one of my favorite bands, and they are far from what they were back when they started. There is a surprising amount of variety in both genres, but I think Finn's just going on about the "in general" view of prog metal nowadays.
I also feel like instrumental music is being left out of the conversation, which to me makes up half of the best prog out there, Animals as Leaders, Plini, Arch Echo, Polyphia, Intervals.
@@nissenilsson9158 he literarily said that DT sucks at writing good songs. That’s when I wrote off the video as a troll video. Yeah DT does masturbate on their instruments, but that’s their style for the past 35 years. But they can write good hooks, and choruses and melodies. Every single DT album has at least one song that could’ve been a radio hit. Verse hook, chorus all that with minimal virtuosity. But music is big business, and big business tell the masses what music they like.
Just because prog isn't going to progress rock into the mainstream or get other people into rock doesn't mean its bad for rock as a whole. It can exist on its own for people who enjoy it to enjoy.
I feel like this is his point for all the genres he talks shit about, saying it won't get mainstream success or whatever when I don't think anyone really cares about that and if they do they'll start making music catered to a more mainstream audience anyway lol.
@@trollolkid I have to wonder whats more important tho, mainstream success, or staying power?... One thing cant be denied about prog bands, for the most part they stay relevant forever. Mainstream successful music scenes change like socks, whereas elite musicianship is always relevant....
@@lancestewart6907 People have been paying to see Rush play live for nearly 50 years. They literally sold out concerts until they physically couldn't do it anymore.
Prog, like black metal and stoner/doom, will always have a dedicated, mostly male audience who are willing to shell out big bucks to support small bands.
Yeah hes kind of bringing up alot of cherry-picked strawman arguments and I dont think he feels this way, I think he knows theres droves of artists out there who feel threatened by prog. BUT I also think prog fans ruin the genre for people. A lot of times they listen to prog because in their head, thats what smart people listen to. Its really just a completely different thing, you cant compare a Quentin Tarantino movie to an Adam Sandler movie. Both are good in their own right.
Yea, personally I think its hilarious when people like homie here tattles on himself. The punk insecurities are real, hardcore and punk can't play their shit so its always like this. What's easier than playing an 8 minute song with no hooks is trying to look cool by making fun of people more talented than you. Its done in all sorts of fields not just music. In another video on Nu Metal he says you can't judge by the middle of the road then does just that in videos like this. OFC just randomly playing isn't music but who the fuck said that lol. When you just make up a straw man and argue against an effigy of nothing its honestly a pretty hilarious self own I was laughing this whole video just at him so he did his job I guess hah. This type of strawman video is all too common, most people aren't very intelligent.
Couldn't these arguments be applied to EVERY genre of music that requires a degree of technical proficiency (Jazz, blues, classical, etc.)? I don't know that I can agree that these criticisms are fair just applied to prog. What Fin also seems to be conflating is mass and commercial appeal with artistic quality and expression. Sure Royals is catchy and memorable, but is that really the only quality that makes it more valuable as an artistic expression than a Dream Theater song? What about Gershwin or Chopin? I mean sure to someone who may not be a musician it doesn't relate as well; but claiming that Royals is a superior song because it has a catchy hook is just as narrowminded as the pop bashers. Also, Fin I hate to say it, but it is definitely NOT any easier to write a Meshuggah or Dream Theater song than it is to write the Carly Rae Jepsen hit. That's not to say you have to like the prog stuff, but bro come on you are literally doing the exact same music elitism crap that metal and prog dudes do to pop. Would you say the same thing about Jazz standards? "Oh its a bunch of saxophone wankery then some trumpets and there's like no melody line and the beat is all over the place!" Pop music isn't harder to write as music, what makes it seem "harder" by your metric is figuring out how to write something that has widespread mass appeal while being simple. The goal in pop writing is not per se artistic expression (from a pure music perspective) as much as it is commercial viability. Pop and prog are both hard to write but for very different reasons and in very different ways.
Nicely said, but I have to disagree with the last thing you said. Pop is very easy to write. What's hard with pop music is making it stand out and selling it. Any musician can write a popsong. They can probably do that in less than an hour by literally using the 4-chords of pop and standard song structure. What's hard about making pop music is the sound engineering required to make it have a radio quality sound, having a pretty face to represent the music and a singer talented enough to perform the song. Pop music is more about entertainment than artistery. It's extremely industrialized music that follows a formula, often written by the same producers over and over again. With only a little bit of musical theory and knowledge, anyone can write a popsong. However, it's not gonna sell. If Dream Theater one day decided to write a serious mainstream pop song, got Justin Bieber and Arianna Grande to sing and perform it while having Max Martin produce and mix it, I can guarantee it would be a hit played on the radio.
@@henrikswanstrom9218 pop music doesn't even need to stand out in order to become a hit. Have you listened to the radio lately? Most radio hits nowadays are almost identical. Also; while it's true that producing top tier pop music requires a highly skilled engineer, prog or metal or what ever is even more demanding because of the sheer amounts of everything that goes into complex music (mics, beats etc.)
Many prog bands feature amazing songwriting and emphasize it over technicality (Genesis and Jethro Tull for example). You just cherry picked the most technical and flashy ones to fit your narrative better.
My wife is a Professional Chef. I totally understand why she has zero interest in eating at Mc. Donalds..... I love Mc.Donalds, But I understand that her entire life's work is built around a palette for 5 star food, not fast food slop. I Have been playing guitar for 20+ years. My wife loves pop punk stuff........ But after that many hours on a guitar, she understand that I have no interest in 3 chord punk bands. Progressive music is just objectively better to me... I dont have the advanced palette for elite 5 star dining. She doesnt have an advanced musical ear for elite musicianship. Its simply different strokes for different folks sir. And thats ok!
Exactly! With music being one of the most subjective of our shared cultural areas it's best not to be automatically dismissive of what others DO find value in. I can find at least some value in any genre of music that is well played.
Dude, reading your answer was the best. I grew up in Punk Rock, but King Crimson is my favorite rock band ever - they blew everything I perceived as music away. I'm more into Fusion/Jazz nowadays, but when I play the drums or my guitar, I usually go for punk rock cuz that's what I can do. Still, I've touched the surface enough to truly appreciate the so called virtuous people, you know? Those that dedicated their lives to learning an instrument, becoming one with it...it's just e fucking beautiful thing to witness, you know? This video is pure insecurity to me, it was cringe as fuck. Dude's way out of his league. Which is fine, no one has to know everything about anything, but take a fucking chill pill. They're not attacking you because you don't get them.
@@sixtofive You really hit the nail on the head about there being value in music that is played well... Popular scenes and genes change with the seasons, but good musicianship never goes out of style.
How the hell do Porcupine Tree never get mentioned in these conversations?! They’re not as heavy as the “prof metal” bands, but in terms of being progressive in tasteful, song-oriented ways, they were/are in a league of their own
I am coming from Steven Wilson because I look for similar stuff. Was asking the completely same question. He is the king of prog rock. Want more of that perfection.
Definitely see where he’s coming from and I see both sides of the argument. As a musician, it’s hard to see past the skill that’s being used to play the song, but sometimes it’s a little frustrating to hear someone on the radio that can barely sing, doesn’t play an instrument, has someone else write their songs, and is making insane money doing it, when their are a lot of far more talented people that get zero recognition. Guess it just comes with the territory.
You are absolutely right. Maybe Porcupine Tree is not considered as Prog Metal but more as Prog Rock. And here you it is more difficult to hide behind complicated fast and loud riffs. Maybe the issue discussed in the video is purely a Metal-related one
Surprised Coheed wasn't in this discussion. Thats a "prog" band that absolutely understands pop sensibilities, has a punk rock ethos and background, AND exclusively writes concept albums and indulges in the occasional 10 minute sweeping epic. They're like the prototypical band showing that prog can absolutely be accessible and catchy.
Finn only talks about bands that support his lies. Claiming that Dream Theater doesn't have hooks or choruses and is just a bunch of riffs is dishonest. The dude listens to CardiB and Hardcore, he wouldn't know composition if it #1 on Billboard.
Stoner Doom/Stoner Rock has become such an incredibly boring, derivative, cut and paste genre which I guess was pretty inevitable. But Sleep and Kyuss will always be badass
@@KnivingDispodia that can be said for every single genre of music. Blues, Rock, Jazz, Grunge, Doom Metal, Rap, Pop. All of it has been beaten to death. However, it’s all about finding that sparkly gem amongst the dirt.
There's a solid reason why Images and Words is regarded as one of the best metal albums of all time...not just from prog but from all subgenres. It's catchy but also insanely complex, almost to the point where you feel like they're showing off. But you can still sing along to most of it just like any pop rock song on the radio. I personally believe Metropolis pt.2 or Octavarium are probably better musically speaking but they're not as catchy.
Once a friend said to me "We learn to enjoy art". Some forms of art are easier to digest and become popular, some are more complex that you need to give it some time and more attention to understand what's going on. After that you decide whether you like it or not. People would just walk by a great painting, but for those who can appreciate it can stand in front of it for 20 minutes being amazed by a painting. Majority people wouldn't bother with prog, too much happening at the same time. But prog fans are people who once learned to enjoy this kind of art and become used to it
Yeah, he doesn’t seem to understand that the fans of prog don’t want bands to be super catchy and poppy. That’s why they listen to prog. To get away from the other stuff.
In my experience, at the “local” level anyhow, it usually just means they have no sense of direction and are a generic garage band without good writing OR complexity.
When it comes to Prog, I'll just quote Mike Muir, "Just 'cause you don't like it, don't mean it ain't no good, and, just 'cause you don't understand what's goin' on, don't mean it don't make no sense."
This right here is dead on. I like this guys views usually, but this one just comes off as he doesn't know what he is talking about and almost elitist. "Kind of a "I know what good music sounds like, and this isn't it." It's funny because a lot of the music he lists as his favorites back in the day most people would say the same thing.
This was painful... "Riffs are not a song." By that logic, beats are not a song. By that logic, Acapella arrangements are not songs. You can't just take one thing, isolate it, say that it doesn't count. Rarely are riffs presented in isolated form. They serve a purpose: to engage the listener. Just like not every pop chorus is good, not every riff is good. In my personal opinion, some of the best riffs are written by prog artists because they find a way to make the instrument their voice.
So, what's wrong with guitar nerds having their own genre to enjoy amongst themselves? If they' have a community with common interests, let them be happy. Go make your own prog if you don't like it.
@@icchorist And Nu metal isn't new anymore. It's a genre, it has a name, complaining that the genre doesn't perfectly fit the name is unnecessarily nit-picky.
I think Spiritbox box is a perfect example of writing something catchy with a simple structure but actually being subtly quite technical. Definitely my favorite metal band out there right now.
Jinjer’s another amazing prog metalcore band (coincidentally also well known for their frontwoman) who connect intricate, heavy riffs with beautiful melodies and make songs that don’t take a Berkelee degree to appreciate. No hate for the ultra 197/16 songwriters out there, but their niche is just that - a small group of potential fans who can get behind it. Mike and Courtney’s chemistry in Spiritbox, and all of the musicians in Jinjer, just bring something together that really balances technical wizardry with solid, accessible songwriting
still wish they did a few more oldschool iwabo type albums after courtney came on but transforiming into spirit box was a very textbook example of being a progressive band
You provided a great example in Eddie Van Halen. Here’s a great quote from him: “I don’t know shit about scales or music theory,” Eddie told Rolling Stone in 1980. “I don’t want to be seen as the fastest guitar in town, ready and willing to gun down the competition. All I know is that rock & roll guitar, like blues guitar, should be melody, speed, and taste, but more important, it should have emotion. I just want my guitar playing to make people feel something: happy, sad, even horny.”
Its funny that most of eddie's stuff is not particularly fast (compared to what we see nowadays), and not extremely technical. What it is indeed is very VERY creative. And it was incorporated on an amazing sounding band. It was the perfect mix of technicality and creativity
It's really funny Finn included Van Halen to counter his misinformed critiques of prog. This is what Steven Wilson, arguably the modern king of prog, said about Eddie Van Halen: “I know he’s an extraordinary musician, and it’s always sad when an extraordinary artist dies, [but] I was never a fan of the so-called shredder mentality. And I think in many ways, he was the father of that whole kind of movement. I never understood that ‘playing as fast as you can’ thing. And I know that wasn’t all he did - I know he was a more flexible musician than that - but I think that the legacy that he has, Eddie Van Halen, is in creating the shredder phenomenon, which is something so vile to me. That kind of idea that you play music almost like you’re playing an Olympic sport is kind of anathema to my kind of ideas on creativity and music.”
Yeah the Eddie Van Halen reference was amazingly ironic considering the recent Steven Wilson controversy. Finn criticises prog for being too 'fast and shreddy', praising EVH in it's place, whilst prog legends are criticising EVH for being too fast and shreddy lmao
I agree that a lot of the genre can be riff salad as you say, but bands like Polyphia and BTBAM have clear structure and hooks. Colors is a highly structured album with a clear narrative and thought given to every instrument including vocal melodies and their cohesiveness. And ployphia has clear hooks. It is not just about how fast or good the guitars are, there is a clear emotion response that comes from the music alone. I think that response is much stronger than that of music with lyrics. Idk maybe its just me.
Modern prog is a homage to Allan Holdsworth. Which is amazing, since he doesn’t get the credit he deserves. Without him we wouldn’t have Periphery, Animals as Leaders, and even perhaps Meshuggah.
I couldn’t get into 99% of modern Prog when I was younger. Once I got into Allan Holdsworth and once his music “clicked” with me, I was able to enjoy modern Prog so much more, and now many of these modern Prog bands are some of my favorite artists of all time.
Probably it's interesting to note that one of John Petrucci's biggest influences are "The Als": Al di Meola, Alex Lifeson, and Allan Holdsworth. For me, the former 2 sounds like normal guitarists. Holdsworth, on the other hand, was oddity. The first time I heard him, I was like "hmmm the sax player is good". Then I realised "o sh*t it was guitar. How on earth he come with such phrasing?". After some time listening to John Coltrane, then I got my aha moment.
Weird how you associate prog with bad songwriting. I associate it with some of the best songwriting you’ll find. Not every prog band is Djent-y. Opeth, Tool, Dream Theater (their songs aren’t all like Dance of Eternity), Porcupine Tree/Steven Wilson, Riverside, etc have some of the best songwriting full of emotions.
One hundred percent. Prog has some of the most thoughtful, deep lyricism and some of the most well-crafted songs. While there are a handful of prog bands who take the technicality too far, I would argue that this is actually the minority of prog music. People are always quick to jump on someone like John Petrucci for being too shreddy, yet they don't credit him for his absolute genius and emotion-soaked melodic playing.
Kayo Dot, Mastodon, Disillusion, Enslaved, Maudlin of The Well, Pain of Salvation... There's a lot great prog artists. I never associated progressive music with necessarily good or bad music, but with artists that expand their tools to doing music - technically, instrumentally, structurally, lyrically and conceptually - when compared with not-progressive bands. That gave progressive artists a larger range of combinations, that not necessarily make their music good, but allows them to express themselves in more uniques ways. That's what I love about Progressive Music.
I remember people getting mad at Polyphia's trap influences on their latest album, but honestly I think it's a great way to make nerdy guitar music relevant.
This video is the equivalent of someone who doesn't listen to hip-hop saying 'it's all just about sex, drugs and hedonism.' Lazy stereotypes that don't represent the genre. I enjoy your content but it's clear to see that when you analyse genres you don't listen to, especially in negative ways, you come across as very ignorant (indie, black metal etc). You seem to just be analysing modern 'djenty' metalcore playing odd time signatures, rather than prog rock itself. If you had made this distinction in the video, I think you would get a lot less criticism. Also, please don't dismiss valid critiques as 'angry haters' who can't handle the 'truth.' You'll never grow this way.
Yeah he lost me on his Indie stands for nothing video. He doesn't listen to the genre but not only feels confident enough to speak on it. but also to shit on it. For all this bullshit about rock not being accessible to marginalized communities, indie was very much an open door club for everyone but hey it's not hyper-pop so who cares right?
I swear to God he listened to a dream theatre album and made this video, but even that doesn't work because they have large concept albums that tell beutifal stories
The guys in Dream Theater can write good songs. They can also do some amazing instrumental acrobatics. What they do not seem to be able to do is put both in the same piece of music and have it fit together smoothly, without hard or jolting transitions.
@@brockbaldridge7620 Thanks for the recommendation. It's been a decade since I last listened to it so it was nice to get a refresher. It's an instrumental and not a song. A song, by definition, is a poem set to music. Even then, this piece is exactly what the video was complaining about. Just a bunch of unrelated riffs thrown together as mostly a way for virtuosos to jerk their dicks for drooling fanboys. There's absolutely no attempt to explore the concept behind the title. (thinking someone is in love with you when they're not) Even in its place opening the mind beside itself suite it's still just a pointless dick flapping exercise because while its title is (very) loosely related to the themes of Voices there are no music themes or leitmotifs from Erotomania carried over into Voices (or the silent man). So, yeah, they can write some really good songs and they can do some amazing instrumental acrobatics but they can't (or don't want to) make the two work together smoothly AND they either can't (or don't want to) compose concise suites.
@@HSR107 Don't know where you got that definition but that's not what a song is. If a song is a poem set to music, how has classical music and many other genres without lyrics thrived if they're not "songs"?
A lot of really good prog rock bands do. But I think he is focusing too much on the bad stuff. I mean Galneryus has some pretty big hooks and they are definitely prog.
Punkbrain. Sounds like a person who loves 4chord songs in 4:4 following the standard intro - verse1 - Reffrain - verse2- Reffrain - Bridge - Reffrain formula. I don't understand how you can't grow tired of this cookiecutter structure.
@@henrikswanstrom9218 So? What's wrong with that basic song structure? Not all music has to be some big thing that has complex song structure and composition. And there's no need to look down on people who enjoy simpler music by calling them "punkbrain." Do you realize how much of an asshole you sound like?
@@samuraicowboyx Nothing's wrong with the basic song structure. I just said that, to some people, that structure becomes boring as it's extremely predictable. When you play or listen to enough music and you can call out what the next chord and section is going to be naturally, that music starts to sound less inspiring to some. Simple music definitely has its place, and so does complex music. There's no need to take a shit on progressive music, it's there because musicians are writing music for themselves. They are not writing music for the asshole who made this video. And what do you think about the author who made this video when he says that progressive music is "riffsalad" and bad songwriting? Sounds like the perfect example of someone who "doesn't get it" and just dismisses it because he can't comprehend it. Which is fine, it takes time, understanding and learning to understand progressive music. It's not written for normal people who can't hear or understand the intrinsic writing. This dude literally says the problem with progressive music is that it puts too much emphasis on technical prowess and shows shred videos of Yngwe Malmsten and Michael Angel Batio. Those guys play shredguitar and neoclassical, that's COMPLETELY different genres. Just show how completely clueless he is. I'm gonna sound pretentious when I say this, which is unfortunate, but progressive music is music made by musicians and usually enjoyed by other musicians. That's why it's often very hard for people who enjoy simple music to get into it. Normal people who don't work with an instrument 24/7 simply don't listen to or play music as much as musicians. It's only natural for some of these musicians to get bored with simple song structures and want to expand what they're doing. We all want to advance and improve. It's not like a painter is gonna pain stick figures his whole life or some talented LOL player is gonna stay bronze his whole life. Some people want to reach a higher level with what they're doing, and to some musicians that entail writing progressive music because it challenges them and their listeners. I'm not an painter, I'm not a mathematician and I'm not a philosopher. It's notlike I'm gonna call a post-modern painting "Color salad", or a parabel fifth grade derivative equation "number salad", or a philosophy thesis "word salad" because I don't get it. I've not had the training or interest to learn those things which makes me ignorant in trying to understand it. That's fine and I'm not gonna downplay any of it as talentless masturbation. The same thing goes for progressive music. If you don't enjoy it, it was never written for you. And it's very clear that progressive music was never written for the author of this video, because the only thing he seems to enjoy is Power chords and rap music in 4/4. Which again, is fine, but why did he feel the need to make this video where he says that music he don't listen to has bad songwriting?
Indeed, sad to hear. Prog exists in every genre. I'm big fan of devin townsend ne obliviscaris, ayreon. And those three bands let every musician shine.
Leprous, Devin Townsend, etc. is prog as well, but they have far more memorable vocal lines and choruses than most of the pop artists. And hardly any riff salad
Dunno man. I don't think anyone who listens to Tool can possibly think "what this song needs is more hooks, it just doesn't sound enough like an actual song". A lot of Tool songs area long, but they're very tightly orchestrated. It's a little bit like saying "Beethoven tried too hard, he should have unfinished more of those symphonies".
Tool would be one of the exceptions though, where the songwriting is paramount. It's more like they have an affinity for the epic than massively technical songs. I mean Sober is two chords and its still my favourite Tool song. Kinda like how Pink Floyd is a lot less complex than King Crimson, Genesis etc. Both examples show Finn's point about the more song based prog bands being the biggest.
In other news, craft beer sucks because Bud Light is the best selling beer. You don’t need complex flavor, education, skill, or passion to make a good beer. You just need like 4 ingredients, a giant factory and a tasteless, loyal customer base!
On the flip side, Trying to smash rare hard to find ingredients together and staring me in the face saying "you must recognize this beer as good, it doesn't have to taste good, you should just appreciate that its rare. "
Rick is a musician and a producer. He understands music because he works with making it. This guy does not, he's more concerned with mainstream success and obviously doesn't play an instrument at a proficient level so doesn't understand. Prog music is music written by musicians for themselves. It's appeal is usually for other musicians or those who've developed a more advanaced taste in music. It's for nerds basically. There's a huge disconnect here. Prog music requires priming and learning to get into, that goes for all advanced music, including Classical and Jazz which also are progressive genres. One does not simply go from listening to very basic music like Pop or Rap into a progressive song and understand what's going on. You need to train your ear, often for years to understand what's going on. A person who only looks for the next chorus to sing along to or bass drop to jump to will never understand the intrinsic sections of a progressive song. And the problem, as stated before, is because they don't hear it. It's just notes and noise to them. (Talking about mainstream listeners here) I know this because I was in this boat myself. When I was young I got into metal music by starting with the simpler stuff. I listened to Nu-Metal which got me into heavy music and catchy choruses. If I would've listened to progressive music at that time it was just wankery to me. I hated solos and wanted to hear memorable choruses I could sing along to from bands like Linkin Park, Slipknot and Deftones et.c. But as time grew my taste developed and I got into more advanced music. Mainly Melodic Death Metal(Because of Catchy choruses) and Metalcore. This included bands like Soilwork, In Flames, Killswitch Engage, All That Remains, Scar Symmetry et.c. The growling and shredding was just there, but at that time the choruses and melodies were captivating to me. Making the leap to songs without clean singing was really hard at first. But with time I started to appreciate the actual guitars and drums more than before. My first leap to listening to songs without clean singing included Parkway Drive, Children of Bodom, August Burns Red, Kalmah et.c. This opened a WHOLE new can of worms and I actually gave Deathcore a shot after previously mocking it because it thought it sounded like men suffering from throat cancer. But after enough exposure and actually "trying" to like it, it just clicked and I understood what people found appealing with it after previously only have heard angry noise. Now it's one of my favorite genres to listen to. At this point I got my first guitar and started playing it daily for hours as a hobby. I've always wanted to play my favorite songs. I then remember one day in 2012 where I heard the song Flourish by The Contortionist at random and I was mesmerized by that song. This was my first exposure to great progressive music as it mixed two of my favorite elements together, Deathcore and hyper melodic song writing. I started looking up bands like them and got introduced to the whole Djent and modern prog scene and that's where I'm at now. I still love all the old music I started listening to way back and listen to and play those songs consistently daily. But to me, progressive music and its songwriting is just superior to all previous genres I've gotten into. Hooks and catchy choruses are less interesting to me nowadays. I've listened to too much of it. I want to hear new elements in music that surprise me and catch me offguard. Things that make me think: "Wow, I've never heard or thought of that before." To me, only progressive and melodic elements in music are able to do that. Sing along to the same chorus 3 times in a row in a song just doesn't do anything for me anymore.
Beato is the man. Yes, his videos are long and sometimes repetitive, but I love how he breaks down a lot of our intuitions about modern pop music and shows how they have an actual basis in the music theory and production techniques used in the songs.
I know a lot of people that aren't guitar nerds or play music and sill like Porcupine Tree, the Mars Volta, Kansas or Deer Hunter. And that does not precent me from liking Royals or Lady Gaga either in fact both have insane production value to me.
As a prog fan I definitely agree with this the salad can get soggy, I also enjoy pop but feel its going the other way and once you've heard the first 35 seconds you've heard the whole song. Need a middle ground for both
I like how this isn't even really a criticism of Prog, more so just a handful of bands you dislike that overemphasize on guitar riffs. Yet you still had to put "progressive music" in the title to generate those outrage clicks.
Honestly who listens to a AAL song and thinks they are trying to apeal to anyone other than musicians. im more than happy as a drummer to listen to songs that push the boundaries past a 4/4 rock beat lol
exactly my point. These criticisms do not apply to the great classic bands that created the genre. Like Yes, Genesis, King Crimson, Jethro Tull, Van Der Graaf Generator, Frank Zappa, and many many more. Its like making a "problems with metal" video and not talking about Sabbath, Metallica and Iron Maiden and only focusing on bands like Infant Annihilator and shitty bandcamp black metal.
Here's my take: Finn the business/self-help guy is awesome. He packages a lot of good info in an easy-to-understand way and relates it to pop culture in order to get people interested who would otherwise avoid this stuff like the plague. He does a good job of interacting with his viewers and giving useful feedback. Finn the music critic is bad. He has a very specific idea of what good music consists of. Unfortunately, there are two flaws with this idea. The first is that it's never clearly articulated anywhere in his videos, so his criticisms can't be situated within any kind of framework that would make them intelligible. The second is that his idea of what good music is seems to conflate mass commercial viability or popular appeal with musical quality--and we can't know this for sure because he's never defined what "good music" means to him (problem #1). So his critical videos consist of comments that make sense to Finn, but not the viewers, plus the same lame joke about how people who like X kind of music are virgins/boomers/have bad fashion sense. Did I get it right?
Generally I have found that it is a genre for musicians. As a guitarist, I totally love the technicality and I would argue there are some great artists and songs. It's probably the exact opposite of punk rock in the realm of rock. I would not say one is better or more worthy than the other, but that they are different arts with different goals.
Some punk rock can be extremely progressive though, for example bands like Drive Like Jehu, Unwound, Fugazi, Slint, and although they aren't really punk anymore, My Bloody Valentine. All of those bands kick the shit out of most prog bands any day imo.
@@ultimadum7785 great bands and great point, I'm just trying to say it's hard to make a sweeping value statement over all of prog. There's a lot of good stuff in there. And to your point, Fugazi kicks ass.
@@billyfrickleman3212 yeah but I think "prog" as a genre is really restrictive when you think about it. I think a band should just be progressive and not have to go out of their way to call themselves progressive. Both genres do seem to have opposing viewpoints on the serface though. Fugazi is probably the greatest four piece band ever. Every member of that band is absolutely perfect for their role.
Was thinking the same thing. It is the polar opposite of punk rock. Many prog artists focus on their skill and the bad ones forget to create a song that flows, but with punk rock the dudes forget to tune their instruments and play 3 chords over autistic screeching. The good (nay great) artists such as Periphery and Tesseract combine both. Writing a technical song with an odd time signature and a catchy hook in such a manner that the layman doesnt even realise it. That's skill. And honestly that is why Periphery, Polyphia and Tesseract are popular. Damn, this upset me more than it should hahaha, still love Finn McKentey's vids.
1.- the fact that they are one of the top prog bands ever, prooves the point of the video, they DO have great songs and pay attention to hooks, just like de Van Halen example 2.- YET they're most praised song in the prog world is the fucking Dance of Eternity. It is literally their signature song and IS BORING RIFF SALAD in odd time signatures
@@natas.cancioncitas 1 - The point of the video is one thing, adding them to a group of bands saying "prog is boring" is another. I get the point, but saying that and then putting pictures and videos of the band is simply dumb, as you said it yourself: they have great songs. 2 - The most praised prog song in the world by guitar nerds. I introduced my friends to DT because they heard it first through the game "Rock Band" and Panick Attack is their favorite song. My favorite song is another one and so on. Is it hard? sure and people know it, but the most praised song by anyone who is NOT a guitar nerd is not that one. To each its own i guess
@@atvena that's what the guy in the video should do. I know that knowing how to play an instrument is optional to join a punk band, but that's no reason to hate on bands that make complex music.
Dude Tool was the soundtrack to my late teenage years and I'll be the first one to say that your statement is false. Ticks and Leeches is just an excuse for Carey to flex his drumming skills, I love the guy but that song really acts as a speed bump in an otherwise solid ride of an album. The only front to back Tool album is Ænima and even then I skip all those weird ambient songs and the album would be better off if Jimmy was left out, that song is B side material.
And is that why I can’t name or recall single Tool song even though I’ve known about the band since 2003 and have probably heard a few of their songs through out my life? 🤷♂️
I agree with most of his take here but I think it is a bit unfair to it Polyphia and Tool in here. They are both examples of bands that have adapted progressive styles into good music.
Agree with everything except the Northlane hook. That song is always stuck in my head. My fiancé hates heavy music and loves that song because of the chorus lol
@@antson02 When he used Crystal Lake Apollo, which is one of the best metalcore songs of all time, I was out haha. I agree with his points, just bad examples.
I've seen fans sing guitar riffs at Polyphia shows, Animals as Leaders shows and CHON shows. These riffs are hooks in and of themselves! I think your point is only valid if these bands are complaining that they aren't getting enough commercial success. But if they're happy, I say just let them be 🤷♂️
Agree with some things disagree with a lot of things Finn said. EVen though he said things should not be dumbed down and then goes on to say Royals is better than anything Dream Theater has ever done. Think you contradicted yourself. Agreed Riff salads are not always a song or listenable, but if every song has a catchy or poppy hook would there even be an u alternative to mainstream.
I feel like the mix of prog and being catchy is where music is at its best. Prog is a constant characteristic for most of my favorites music. Pink Floyd was not the most intricate but damn if it isn't some of the best music. Ne obliviscaris, polyphia, animals as leaders, Rivers of Nihil, Dream theater Between the buried and me, etc... All have varying degrees of difficulty, but they all get stuck in my head. Not just straight riff salad.
That's actually what got me the most about Ne Obliviscaris when I got their tab book. You'd think as an extreme prog metal band it would be super difficult to play. Nah, besides the solos the guitars just need a good rhythm player most of the time, and a lot of sections are just jamming on a couple easy chords. Plague Flowers verse is pretty much just A minor and E minor with slight variations
@@frodijr Did you look at the bass tabs though? Haha. For reals though, imo, the basslines reeeeeally carry NeO songs - not saying anything bad about the guitars, just that the simple guitar parts are only elevated because the bass parts are so melodic and technical. Take "Forget Not" for example, where the first 5 minutes are just simple acoustic strumming beneath a long violin solo, but the bass is playing a more complex line that transforms the acoustic strumming into something interesting. Same goes for Plague Flowers as you mentioned.
Progressive never lost its meaning. That's why Fantomas and Animals as leaders exist. In fact, some of the alternative music still has experimental/prog aspect.
@@nilsar4357 you have a point, I’m old enough to to remember when the two genres shared the label. For instance, the alternative radio station played “progressive dance music” which at that time meant Depeche Mode & Information Society. “Progressive” and “Experimental” have similar meanings in the dictionary, but musically they can be at opposite ends of the spectrum.
"Alternative" died for me somewhere around the time that track from Rob Thomas and Carlos Santana was considered Alt. Oh, How the mighty have fallen. That being said, I love me some Divinex and Intervals. Sometimes I really don't want to hear a vocalist bleat on about some bullshit, and I want to hear the expressive qualities of an instrument as performed by a true master of the craft.
@@beegeezee505 I hear you on that. Musical mastery isn’t everything, but pop has gone WAY to simplistic. Earth, Wind & Fire aren’t considered a progressive band but a song like “Fantasy” is freakin’ Rush compared to Jonas Brothers. That used to be 40 radio!
Bit more underground but I had to think of DMM's Eco album from a couple years ago. Atmospheric electro pop prog stuff that has nothing to do with noodling around or anything. That's from a dude who did full on stereotypical djent just 4 years prior to that.
@@MellonVegan Not familiar…DMM: David Maxim Micic? Based on “DMM Eco” lookup. Anyway, seems like a very interesting creative musician. I see a list of albums on Wikipedia page. Will check them out. Thanks 🙏
I mean Royals, with all of its simplicity, stays in your head and you can't stop thinking about it. I could listen to the best prog song ever and I might think it's cool but when it's done Shake It Off by Taylor Swift will always be infinitely better to me because she's not trying too hard. She made a great song and that's what should matter. Would you rather watch Blues Brothers or some dumb M Night Shyamalan movie with a needless plot twist, undoing everything he's built so far. Beauty in simplicity
@@jaketalkstunes If you like simplicity: ruclips.net/user/results?search_query=dream+theater+the+silent+man ruclips.net/video/MzovR0s7EbI/видео.html ruclips.net/video/S42r7EQ0lmw/видео.html ruclips.net/video/IG6s_AAO1vA/видео.html and many more
@@jaketalkstunes Shake it Off is a whole bag of cringe and I like Taylor Swift. Also, a song being catchy doesn't mean it's a great song because they can be immediately accessible and yet very shallow. Stuck in your head after 1 listen and dried up after 5, soon becoming a very dull affair. A great progressive or experimental song can often take multiple listens to appreciate fully and then feel timeless. Of course there is pop music that does this, but a song stuck in your head or catchy really doesn't determine quality. I had Limp Bizkit/Kid Rock songs stuck in my head when I was 13 and now I can't stand them.
@@abravexstove289 Beethoven was literally panned by critics all then time for a technical wankery, criticizing him for writing passages of music that only he could play
Finn: I listen punk rock. Punk rock is about being yourself and not being liking from everyone. also Finn: Progressive music should be easier and catchier because not everyone likes complex song.
@@ThePunkRockMBA that's irrelevant, his point still stands. You've been very into punk and respect the genre because its strong sense of individuality appealed to you.
@@ThePunkRockMBA and there's your problem,soulless talentless rap isn't real music while dream theater is and royals is an OK song but is shit compared to any prog band
It should be catchier if it wants to achieve any commercial viability or reach. Despite the technical skill required, prog has a pretty low floor and a really low ceiling for its potential audience. I think that's what Finn was getting at here.
Rush has sooooooooooo many hooks it’s not even funny, even uhhh this one small Prog band, like, I’m not sure if you’ve heard of them, just a tiny band, that no ones EVER heard of, YES!
I've watched 2 videos from this dude now, and I think I've got it: edgy overstatement -> slight walk-back -> include himself in the criticism -> give examples which don't seem to fit the original criticism -> throw in some tangential information -> pivot to a new edgy overstatement before the audience has a chance to think about it. Anyone get a different order? Did I leave out anything?
Honestly I think that Northlane hook is a pretty strong vocal hook so you kinda lost me there but in general I agree with most of what you said. I'm a huge prog fan and there are a lot of artists who don't really do much with all the extra space you have to work with in prog, why expand your horizons when you can't make the most of that expansion? Thats exactly why my favourite prog acts are bands like Periphery who have hooks and also make the most of the extra room they have to work with
Yeah, Marcus is a great vocalist who cares about his art, and you can hear that in the songs imo. He wouldn't sing something that just exists to fill the space. Plus that exact hook has been stuck in my head for days. So it does work as a hook, at least for some people.
@All Our Steelers Have Abandoned Us Yeah they're definitely a much more accessible band than most of the "djent" scene, they're pretty prog in the original sense, trying uncommon things like 4D being djent+DnB, but they're certainly not doing the overly technical music for nerds, at least not these days
Finn has a tendency to use northlane as a de facto ‘modern metalcore bad’. I don’t think he really gets them, on the basis of he’s probably never given them much of a listen beyond a couple popular tracks...
I mean, to be fair, they used to be one of the trademark prog metalcore bands in the past with albums like Singularity, so I get his point of referring to them often. Now they pushed it further to a more accessible, yet still more intricate and detailed way with how they work with electronics and variety of influences. Though the Clockwork was arguably the least fitting example he could've put there, I must admit.
True but the fans are well known for being a**holes so props to them for showing intelligence above a 3rd grader and I know this doesn't matter but I do live and deal with autism homicidal rage depression and on various medication
Great music shouldn’t be defined by skill level or how “palatable” it is. Music at is core is about expression not necessarily by doing crazy shit or by making a hit song. That’s why Prog appeals to me because in theory you can do whatever you want and you don’t have to adhere to a conventional song structure however I like pop sensibilities because it gives that freedom of expression context when you marry the two and do a bit of genre bending it allows you to do some really cool stuff while writing a good song
This guy is missing the whole point of prog. Prog is for music nerds , the complexity of the songs is what we want to hear , it keeps our interest in the song wondering what new sounds or shapes we can hear. Also we gotta mention that the better player you are the better you can express yourself with your instrument, that's why prog has soo many talented musicians , that leads me to the final point , prog music is mostly for people that play an instrument 🎸
Don’t know if you read the title bro but it’s actually “The PROBLEM with Prog” not why we LIKE prog. Maybe listen first before coming to a half baked conclusion
@@fishcakes5626 the whole video is a 20 minutes half baked conclusion... My boy went full Stephen A Smith with comments like "prog is a dude with a 5k guitar jacking off to riff salad"
@@fishcakes5626 Except that, apart from the title, that is not how the video is then presented. The video goes on to basically bash many things that makes prog prog.
Can't really see the problem, it's just you don't like it. I'm sure there is plenty of catchy prog music you can listen to. I like prog riff and shred solos and appreciate the effort people put on they work. I love to watch videos of composers explaining how they made a song
@@SebastianSer You're wrong. TesseracT are clearly talentless and only engage in bad song writing. A song needs to be in 4/4 to be good. You're also not allowed to use your instrument.
It’s cray that you included TOOL on the cover. Very catchy songs and choruses...definitely focusing on the song. Also, not a crazy good guitarist. Simple, repetitive rifts.
@@richardclark1127 I wouldn't call Adam Jone's writing weak. Sure he's doesn't do highly technical guitar parts, but I certainly wouldn't call them weak.
@@adameury60 I didn't say they were weak overall...just the weakest part of the band. Tool is my favorite band and I have nothing but love for Adam...but Danny, Justin, and Maynard are at another level.
Bad take... and once again sugar coating when talking about his friends’ bands. Like periphery has bunch riff centered songs with crazy song structures. They are a band that those “gear nerds” love to hear. I think this “prog influence in metalcore” is also blown out of proportion here. Metalcore as a whole is still very chorus oriented, with a specific formula. Just cuz the band has a couple technical riffs, that doesn’t change it, imo. The video itself was good, I just don’t really agree with the points made here. That being said, while I still like prog and technical songs, I agree that “the more technical a song is != the better it is” But in my opinion there’s space for both in music. You can play “simple music” and sound good or bad, and play “hard music” and sound bad or good.
I feel like there has been a prog tendency to metalcore for a while. Old Prada, for example, has a lot of aonga that depart from typical verse-chorus-verse structure, which was instrumental in getting me into extreme metal.
@@nicholashouse4261 I think old Prada was heavily influenced by chaotic old metalcore, hardcore bands like Converge, Pig destroyer, etc. But I get what you’re saying!
Sounds like a bunch of justifications for feeling like a genre intellectually threatens the high school genre limitations one may have placed on thier ego. It's clinging to such superficial reasoning....its like listening to a bully look for approval after the nerd they were attempting to make fun of left ten minutes ago unshook and with the last word.
It´s clear you don´t like progressive rock and progressive metal. Most of the best bands right now are considered progressive: Gojira, Mastodon, Mashuggah, Opeth, The Contorsionist, Between the buried and me, Tool and many more.
He’s interviewed Tommy from BTBAM on his podcast, lol. Don’t get me wrong, I love prog. My favorites are Mars Volta, BTBAM, Protest the Hero, but it’s just music for other musicians. Most of Finn’s takes are based on commercial success, which prog doesn’t do because it caters to a niche crowd.
thats the whole point of this video... they arent pushing the genre... pushing the genre would be doing some of the shit he suggested in this video, to do just that. their racing in circles, which is fun to watch but incidentally and ironically isnt very "progressive" in the definitive sense
@@KirbyLouis yeah, I kinda get it...there are tons of "riff salad" bands out there that I can't remember one single riff or line after hearing a full album. I just think that bands hope to achieve different goals. Some want to get big and some just want to try new things. And in both cases, 95% will fall short
Bro, back in the day it was a spectrum rather than a simple one or the other. But to be honest I like some prog like: Dream theatre, Tool, Meshugga and a perfect circle (Yes, I accidentally made a prog big four). As well as polyphia and periphery as enjoyable to non fans like me.
Not every song needs to be catchy. Mainstream success is not everything and focusing on the guitar is exactly what so many of us love! There are incredible prog bands and musicians who can make a song stuck in your head for ages. Not all music must fit mainstream taste and there are other ways to judge a song.
Did you even watch the video, mate? He already adressed everything you said, you're adding nothing to the conversation but repeating the same points he countered. Every prog musician can use the same excuse you said, but way too often they are becoming the opposite of progressive: riff salads of rehashed, overproduced stuff with no soul or feeling. Metal is becoming way too niche and small as a genre partially because of this. The way rock once rose to greatness and fame comparable to pop and rap, was thanks to mainstream bands that inspired the next generations of musicians out of a huge audience. These days, metal is becoming so small we can barely hope the next generation will even produce enough quality musicians who can make a living of this. Its a shame so many good prog bands can't produce more than a couple albums a decade...
Steven Wilson, Purcupine Tree, Anekdoten, Riverside... modern prog rock with great songwriting. Taking American bands mainly for doing generalizations is wrong.
Man, I think you're wrong on this one. People do care about this. Just because its not your taste doesn't mean it's not another's. Prog isn't trying to take over the world, it's in it's sub-genre. Opeth been operating for years and they're doing just fine.
Right?!?! I don't know how even mentioned tool 😂 like they have some of the most musically insane compositions. Like none of the stuff he said applies to tool
Thank God someone mentioned opeth. There's so many huge prog or prog adjacent bands who contradict what he says. Think voivod, porcupine tree, Dillinger escape plan, king crimson
However Maynard definitely can write cool lyrics and the band has melody as well as sick rythem. They don't just djent riff all day and call it an album.
@@garrydhintz8017 they exclusively do odd time signatures with one repeating phrase for 12 minutes. You're trying to make them sound like pop and they're the opposite of that. And even if they don't djent they synth and have a song that is literally just crickets
Progressive rock is supposed to be a song/piece that builds as the music progresses. That's what it originally was supposed to be and I feel a lot of bands nowadays have forgotten that. I disagree on Dream Theatre, they have a lot of pieces/songs that capture the spirit of progression in the music, take Octavarium or Change of Seasons.
I don’t really like prog either but it really seems like you’re trying so hard to cater to younger kids now than before. Like I feel like you’ve been gushing over stripper rap, hyper pop and kinda stuff that while popular right now actually isn’t experimental like you say it is. It seems like you’re less and less genuine and more trendy every video, which I get from the business point of view. You just seem more and more trendy and it seems forced. As someone that been watching you for years it’s weird and almost corny now.
Nope its the opposite. I hid my opinions before. Though I’d try being more honest - but it may be hurting my channel (views are down), so I may go back to hiding my opinions again.
@@ThePunkRockMBA I think maybe you should just stick to things you really like, or at least have more than just a surface level understanding of. I get it, you don't need to like every single genre out there, but videos like this one and your Indie one just come off as arrogant and like you don't really understand the subject of the video. Your best work (and my favorite work of yours) comes from the stuff you love because you actually are informative and providing more than just sweeping generalizations and assumptions.
I often find myself agreeing with Finn says but totally disagreeing with the visuals he chooses for the message he is conveying. The video is complaining about riff salad and then he chooses to show a Northlane clip of a song with a very traditional song structure, a catchy as fuck and poppy chorus, and good lyrics with a great vocal hook. I think he could improve there for sure because his message often doesn't match the visuals
As a guy who likes Prog a lot, I liked this video a lot, however, I did have one slight problem, when speaking about the comparison between Dream Theater and Lorde, I felt like your wording of how "Royals" is more impressive than any Dream Theater song kind of implied that every song by Dream Theater is just ultra-complex and only focuses on guitar shreddery with little in regard to songwriting. which couldn’t be further from the truth IMO. This might piss some DT fans off, but IMO, songs like "The Answer Lies Within" and "The Spirit Carries on" are basically just Pop songs with some Prog elements and I could’ve honestly seen either of them making a Billboard year-end list
It shouldn't piss off any DT fans. The band has said that they enjoy the process of writing a 4min 4/4 song because it's actually far more challenging for them than a 20min song with multiple movements and countless time changes.
They’ve admitted that there’s a pop side to their music that’s always been there thanks to their influences like U2, and it’s honestly one of my favorite parts of them. I think it sets them apart from a lot of other bands in the genre
That's exactly .00015% of the global Spotify base (356M) or .003% of Machine Gun Kelly's audience (50M). Jason Richardson is a great player, but he is a microcosm of this video...A+ skill and will likely have zero long term impact on music culture. Then again, I'm just a hack who prefers a great song over a great solo...so what do I know.
@@jburdsinfuse 55k people doesn't equate to nobody, and Jason Richardson is but one of the many. The aggregated total is larger than most genres. Also, guitar music is amongst the most popular. Jason Richardson is at the tip of the spear for an entire genre. He is already making the lasting impact you claim he will never make.
@@jburdsinfuse Also, great songs can have great solos. The two are not mutually exclusive. I know you said you prefer a great song, but unfortunately, all I hear is that you prefer a simple song. If that's your bag, more power to you. Music is subjective. Go forth and like what you like. However, most of the comments in this thread stink of people who would look at a Picaso and say "... I could make that in 5 minutes with some crayons and a few water colours".
@@ianmartin2924 I'd love to see a statistic that supports your statement: "larger than most." Rock music isn't and hasn't been the most popular genre in more than a decade no matter how you aggregate it. I'm a gigging guitar player...but no one wants to hear me play a riff that sounds like an equation on the fretboard, they want to hear "You Shook Me All Night Long"
The best design advice I’ve ever received was “it’s not finished when there’s nothing left to add, it’s finished when there’s nothing left to take away”
This is why IMO Octivarium was Dream Theater's best album. Every song nails the balance between technical and catchy. They didn't sacrifice clever, melodic vocals for ridiculous instrumentals and the guitar doesn't feel like the center of the band.
“Hurr durr they no make three note hook and just play smarty pants solo” As dumb as this argument is it’s also verifiably false. Several of the bands you mentioned have songs that are pretty simple when it comes to both form and compositional approach. Look at King Crimson for example. Songs like epitaph consist of like, five chords. Even looking at some of their more musically complex work like Frame by Frame. Despite the use of blazing fast guitar arpeggios and stacking different time signatures on top of each other, it all gets held together with that beautiful “frame by frame” vocal melody. I can understand some of these complaints but they really only apply to very recent bands as opposed to the genre as a whole. It’s like saying “Classical music is bad because of Steve Reich. Even though none of my complaints apply to 98% of the other musicians in this genre, I’m gonna say it’s all bad now” And the complaint about the music being really long and filled with pointless nonsense when most of this video is bloviation is rich. This video could have been cut in half and you wouldn’t lose anything of substance
Have you even listened to the video? Like King Crimson is a positive example he gave. The things that make Frame by Frame great that you described are quite literally what he was talking about; not losing sight of songwriting because of complexity and being actually innovative (fusing non-western music, prog rock and new wave) instead of aping other bands. If you worked on your listening comprehension, you'd have noticed that he doesn't lump all of prog together, but describes a tendency of a lot of modern prog. He states like 5 times that he likes prog, even "nerd shit" like spastic ink, so it is indeed "rich" that you basically say "Yeah, I get hose criticisms, but it's not all like that", when that was never the argument. Stop typing while mad, it helps :^) And btw listing examples of bands that do prog well isn't an argument against him describing a general trend in prog, especially when the video is largely about modern progressive metal, not 80s Prog Rock with New Wave influences.
@@BJSepuku He never explicitly states that bands like King Crimson are good, and he implicitly shits on them by shitting on a huge amount of stuff they do in their music. Like they were quite literally just copying (or “aping”) Steve Reich on half that album. I’m pretty sure he even hearted a comment shitting on Rush because of “trying to hard to be complex” (I’m paraphrasing) which is crazy because they’re the LEAST like that out of most of the prog scene. Hell he even shits on bands where the sole focus of the group is virtuosic guitar work. That just because they don’t have those little catchy vocal bits the song is trash. You whine about me not using my listening comprehension and ignoring all the “good things” he says while YOU ignore all the dumb shit that he says. And him saying “uhhh.... but I like it too guyz” doesn’t negate everything else he said. Like imagine verbally abusing your mother until she cries and then saying “lol jk mom I love you” (maybe an extreme example but the purpose is to make a point) My issue is most of this video is subjective whining about a particular style of music that addresses why the creator thinks that prog isn’t popular. He never gives a legit reason as to why it’s bad, he gives reasons why it’s not popular and attributes that to being “bad music” He never even states why these things are bad on an artistic level, he just says “hurrrrrr not popular no 1 like fast shred music for guitarists” and then says they’re shit.
While I think basically everything Finn said is true, I don’t think anyone has any delusions about the fact that they’re basically making music for other musicians. I always thought that was kind of prog metal’s thing.
It's worth pointing out that being technically a proficient guitarist or drummer doesn't necessarily equate to good musicianship, i.e. keeping time, balancing, blending with other musicians and dynamism. The issue I have with a lot of metal music is the limited variation in timbre and texture. There isn't much liminal space between clean and distorted tones and not much use of space and resonance - there is sound plastered all over the place. What is also peculiar about contemporary progressive metal is the lack of instrumental variety - there isn't much use of keyboards, bowed strings, woodwinds, brass, percussion and other non-standard instrumentation unlike progressive rock of the 70s, hence why it's all guitar-centric. Seeing more guitarless metal bands as a whole would be great - Mr Macaille and Botanist are examples that come to mind.
did you ever think that maybe you could just not be into a certain style of music? Instead of having to come up with some vague argument as to why that style is inherently bad, all while making passive aggressive remarks towards a lot of people. Why is it always “The problem with _____” and not “Why I can’t get into ______”? I know it’ll help your views, but your negativity and close mindedness can have a real life effect on the scene you claim to be a part of. Your lack of nuance and knowledge on the subject material at hand is pretty irresponsible. With someone as large as a platform as you, you just constantly push negativity and division. It’s really disheartening because I can’t think of any other music related channels on RUclips that can act in such bad faith (say maybe except some guitar oriented channels like Stevie T). Watching your videos over the years, it’s pretty clear that you’re a pretty negative person, where almost everything out of your mouth has to be some passive aggressive quip, even if disguised as “all in good fun.” And if you barely listen to the kind of music you make videos about now, saying that you mostly listen to rap and pop, why do you continue making content on this kind of stuff? Your heart is clearly not in it and it shows throughout your content.
Sounds to me like you are reacting emotionally to what you think I said rather than what I actually said. No matter how hard I try to be clear that this is intended as a constructive suggestion, some people will just take it as a personal attack. And when I do more positive videos about things I personally like, I get tons of negative feedback AND lower views. So there’s really no incentive for me to make videos like that.
@@ThePunkRockMBAI mean, if you want to call me delusional for misinterpreting your arguments, I guess that’s fine? Maybe? But to be honest, it’s really hard to take you seriously when you pull the “constructive criticism” card. Because, inherent to your brand, you see music as a product. You don’t see it as an art, rather as a commodity and its relation to cultural and market changes. Which, there is value in that, don’t get me wrong. However when that’s how you choose to frame your understanding of music, it can undermine the artistic expression and creativity that goes into music. The critiques you give on music, say for example in this video where you basically say that prog would be better if it was poppier and less technical, often don’t have very sufficient points. Like trying to juxtapose prog songwriting to that of Lorde? Like, you’re comparing two completely separate styles of music as a detraction towards the one you don’t like. Or choosing a Lumineers song when trying to find a new indie song to see if you can find any merit, as if The Lumineers are a relevant example of indie in 2021. Even as far back as your video on post hardcore, where you completely left out any mention of At The Drive In, which played an incredibly big role in the progression of post hardcore in the early 2000s (only to find out later that you personally hate ATDI, so it seems right to infer that excluding them out of the history of post hardcore was a result of bias). You don’t have to like every band, you don’t have to like every genre. But if you’re going to be making content that acts as a one stop shop for music fans and potential fans for various artists, it should at least be a good faith effort. However, far too often your biases poison the well for bands and genres, in a way that will inadvertently turn people off from them. And while I know it’s more profitable and lucrative for you, it can have lasting effects in the community.
Like it or not Finn and Punk Rock MBA is saving rock music in general. I had lost interest in rock music till I found his channel and I know plenty of people who are getting back into rock bc of the knowledge this man spreads with this channel. He’s got a point. The prog scene can be really negative towards other generes. They feel superior because they use all the technical components they can use in the guitar and often criticize others that don’t go the lengths they go while playing their instrument. The most successful rock songs in the world are literally easy to play. A good song is based in the impact it has in you with are often the lyrics and catchy parts. The prog scene doesn’t often see it that way and that’s what pisses off the rest like dude nobody cares how fast u can play. Now I read a negative comment talking about Jazz or classical music and how this video can be interpreted as criticizing music generes that requiere technicality. First of all Jazz musicians don’t go around feeling superior because they play Jazz nor do classical musicians. The prog scene has created this toxic environment where if u don’t play as fast as I play then u are inferior to me and I don’t want u within my circle. It’s almost like they forgot the fun part of making music.
Awww man! I was hoping for another trap metal and how it’s changing the game type of video 🥱 Progressive music isn’t for everyone and doesn’t have to be catchy. I don’t understand the comparison between prog and pop. Making music more accessible is great for bands that want more exposure but that’s not what everyone is after. I agree that guitar wankery is pretty annoying at times but you can’t discredit music just because it doesn’t appeal to the masses.
This is why I love Opeth. Most of their songs are fairly simple to play and keep the progressive nature without being pretentious. Yeah it's riff city sometimes, but even then, it's the vocals that shine the most and the bassist isn't there just to provide thickness to guitars, but has his own place and indentity in the band with his melodies.
This is excellent. Young people should actually listen to King Crimson because even though they were using a ton of sophisticated ideas it was still about songs with quality melodies like The Great Deceiver, Frame By Frame, Three of A Perfect Pair, etc.
And more modern prog isn't? At the same time I have to ask you have you actually listened through the entire discography of King Crimson? I love the band, but some of it is very experimental and not always just about great melodies.
I get where you're coming from with the sandwich argument, but I think the thing is the longevity of music vs a sandwich. I would rather have 10 hours put into a song that I can listen to forever rather than 10 hours into a sandwich I'll eat in 10 seconds
Idk, I guess I kinda see where you’re coming from, but all of your arguments just sounds like you personally can’t get into prog music, but instead of just accepting that prog might not be for you, you blame the entire genre for not being accessible enough. And I think that’s a thing that makes prog music special, because prog music can be whatever the artist wants it to be, and it doesn’t have to appeal to anyone. To value songs in how catchy they are is also incredibly narrow minded, because music is so much more than just whether you can sing along to it or not. Besides, I really am not a big fan of policing what is and isn’t the right way to make music, because there exist no right or wrongs in that question. Create what you want to create exactly how you want to - that’s all that matters.
This was so uncomfortable to watch :D In regards to the motif here "the songs are terrible, no hooks, just guitar music"... Did you pay attention to the origins of prog rock (King crimson, Yes, Camel, Genesis, Jethro Tull, etc) I know you mentioned some of them at the beginning but if you really listen to their music (Like actually listen to their records) with an open mentality, disconnecting from any prior cultural bias I bet you will find a new form of entertainment, I know that I have personally found the same time of beauty in a 13 minute complex Camel song as I can get from a very hooky Abba song. I understand that your perspective comes from the background of somebody who's into metal/punk music, which only knows and understands prog from their cultural approximate (animals as leaders, periphery, masturbatory guitar technique dudes, etc) but that's such a different wave of prog rock. I always try to confront the typical Sex Pistols attitude of "Prog rock sucks" (which is always fuelled by most of the criteria mentioned on this video btw) with, well what do you think about jazz, (not Cecil Taylor) Anything negative to say about Jazz, or classical music? Are those types of genres also unnecessary long, instrument focused, without simple hooks, too complicated, etc? Why can't we just disconnect this specific genre from a cultural persona which is used to negatively perceive music? When I think about prog, I don't think about a type of person, I think about music, particularly bands that I enjoy listening to. But yeah aren't we all a bit biased in that regard, I'll confess that I can't do the same over genres like metal core or emo xD, those are so intrinsically tied to a stereotype in my view. With that said, just leaving my glass house at your disposal for any rocks you might want to throw at the expense of transparency. Perhaps I am not too much into modern progressive metal in order to understand where you're coming from. Honestly the only "modern" band that I follow is Opeth, and I would not label them with any of the things you mentioned on this video. Conclusion: Perhaps the title of this video should be more like "The problem with modern progressive metal..."
@@danielpicon8012 the name given to the kind of prog metal like periphery, tesseract, animals as leaders which are characterized by a specific but distinct guitar tone that meshuggah are known for creating, along side it's use of polyrhythmic riffs and rhythms which are often accompanied by layered clean guitar parts over it.
Come hang out on our Discord! discord.com/invite/dpKTrW9Q4R
Hey you've used Crystal Lake's Apollo for the generic metalcore genre twice now. They have a vast library of songs, some that are quite technical. Perhaps more research needs to be done. They aren't an architects clone etc.
Fin you totally dropped the ball here. Here is exactly what you did wrong.
You should of included the face reactions in the corner of the video of people like Misha Mansoor , Adam Neely, Herman Li, Sarah Longfield and all the other Prog youtubers react to all you "hurtful comments". I am outraged how not "progressive" enough of a youtuber making such an easy video. 🤣🤣🤣
bezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz doo da looodala dooodyy berrrderrlerrderr doooo wraa wraa wraaa
libtard the band! lol
@@AMPProf What is going on?
Lorde’s songwriting is even more impressive when you realize she is a middle-aged man in Colorado who writes songs in the bathroom.
That reference probably flew over everyone's head 🤣
@@alasdairgodewife8534 Shure did for me lol
Randy Marsh
Yah yah yah I am Lorde.
@@alasdairgodewife8534 iz south park fam lol
Finn wakes up on Sunday: "I wonder if there is a fandom I can piss off more than the Black Metal dudes... WAIT A MINUTE!"
😹
They hated him because he told the truth
It's funny cuz that's what a lot of prog metal fans are like
They're like "black metal fans are so snobbish ugh" then they jump on people cause they dare insult dream theatre
he probably still pissed them off with this video because he dared to call it metal
👏👏👏🙌
I agree that just because a song is complex and hard to play, that does not make it good. But the opposite must also be said: Just because a song is catchy, does not make it a good song.
True but people will pay and watch the catchy song compared to the complex one
A song played 10+ years after the release is probably considered a good song. A number one song forgotten a month later is probably not a good song. A modern prog song is forgotten while listening to it.
@@rockguy8362 I don't think anyone wants to watch the Baha Men perform "who let the dogs out" anymore...maybe at the county fair.
Ok, jokes aside, like Fin said, they each have their place.
A song is good if you like it. Period.
@@orlock20 commercial success isn't the only kind of success...
I think these complaints apply much more to Power Metal than Prog Metal...because I would never describe actual Prog bands like TOOL, Haken, Leprous, and Opeth as “fast guitar” bands
As someone who listens to quite a lot of Power Metal, I would say that the genre being denoted as the "fast guitar" genre isn't always true either. Quite a few of the more prominent songs by bands like Jag Panzer and Running Wild have a more "mid-paced" tempo to them. Even Helloween - who are well known for bringing up many of the lead guitar 16th note flurries that the genre is now famous for, usually have song tempos that noticeably vary from song to song on any one album.
However, if you're talking about bands like Dragonforce, then I definitely agree (though that's not to say I don't enjoy some of of the bands that indulge in the more "technical" side of the genre).
I think that was the point he was trying to make when he mentions how "progressive" has become a label rather than a genre of music. Leprous is one of my favorite bands, same with Porcupine Tree.. but both (imo) don't really follow the Dream Theater or Periphery formula of what people think as "progressive" nowadays. I agree though, not all prog bands are like that.
@@rjchristopher4039 I should also mention I'm a huge power metal nerd, too. Kamelot being one of my favorite bands, and they are far from what they were back when they started. There is a surprising amount of variety in both genres, but I think Finn's just going on about the "in general" view of prog metal nowadays.
PowerMetal has melody good lyrics and musical structure to embrace the ‘song’
I also feel like instrumental music is being left out of the conversation, which to me makes up half of the best prog out there, Animals as Leaders, Plini, Arch Echo, Polyphia, Intervals.
This video feels like you just wanted to rant because you're tired of listening to Dream Theater every time you get in your buddy's car.
Lol
@That1JPfanboy Your friend is just being a good friend, Bro.
@That1JPfanboy he definitely thinks every DT song is like The Dance of Eternity lol
He really is not talking about Dream Theater here
@@nissenilsson9158 he literarily said that DT sucks at writing good songs. That’s when I wrote off the video as a troll video. Yeah DT does masturbate on their instruments, but that’s their style for the past 35 years. But they can write good hooks, and choruses and melodies. Every single DT album has at least one song that could’ve been a radio hit. Verse hook, chorus all that with minimal virtuosity. But music is big business, and big business tell the masses what music they like.
You really struggle to separate your own bias from objective truth.
That's most of Finn's videos.
@@jonnuanez2843 I think you mean *all* of his videos.
It doesn't get more succinct and accurate than that!
There is no such thing as "objective truth" in music.
@@postcode-x But Finn pretends like there is
Just because prog isn't going to progress rock into the mainstream or get other people into rock doesn't mean its bad for rock as a whole. It can exist on its own for people who enjoy it to enjoy.
I feel like this is his point for all the genres he talks shit about, saying it won't get mainstream success or whatever when I don't think anyone really cares about that and if they do they'll start making music catered to a more mainstream audience anyway lol.
@@trollolkid I have to wonder whats more important tho, mainstream success, or staying power?... One thing cant be denied about prog bands, for the most part they stay relevant forever. Mainstream successful music scenes change like socks, whereas elite musicianship is always relevant....
@@lancestewart6907 People have been paying to see Rush play live for nearly 50 years. They literally sold out concerts until they physically couldn't do it anymore.
Prog, like black metal and stoner/doom, will always have a dedicated, mostly male audience who are willing to shell out big bucks to support small bands.
@@Ramjam9000 yeah and that was a different time.
The best prog metal is all about good song writing. It just takes a little attention span to go on the journey.
Yeah hes kind of bringing up alot of cherry-picked strawman arguments and I dont think he feels this way, I think he knows theres droves of artists out there who feel threatened by prog.
BUT I also think prog fans ruin the genre for people. A lot of times they listen to prog because in their head, thats what smart people listen to. Its really just a completely different thing, you cant compare a Quentin Tarantino movie to an Adam Sandler movie. Both are good in their own right.
Yea, personally I think its hilarious when people like homie here tattles on himself. The punk insecurities are real, hardcore and punk can't play their shit so its always like this. What's easier than playing an 8 minute song with no hooks is trying to look cool by making fun of people more talented than you. Its done in all sorts of fields not just music.
In another video on Nu Metal he says you can't judge by the middle of the road then does just that in videos like this. OFC just randomly playing isn't music but who the fuck said that lol. When you just make up a straw man and argue against an effigy of nothing its honestly a pretty hilarious self own I was laughing this whole video just at him so he did his job I guess hah.
This type of strawman video is all too common, most people aren't very intelligent.
If we want to talk about a lack of creativity, it's not the prog bands that are constantly suing each other for stealing hooks 🤔
Couldn't these arguments be applied to EVERY genre of music that requires a degree of technical proficiency (Jazz, blues, classical, etc.)? I don't know that I can agree that these criticisms are fair just applied to prog. What Fin also seems to be conflating is mass and commercial appeal with artistic quality and expression. Sure Royals is catchy and memorable, but is that really the only quality that makes it more valuable as an artistic expression than a Dream Theater song? What about Gershwin or Chopin? I mean sure to someone who may not be a musician it doesn't relate as well; but claiming that Royals is a superior song because it has a catchy hook is just as narrowminded as the pop bashers.
Also, Fin I hate to say it, but it is definitely NOT any easier to write a Meshuggah or Dream Theater song than it is to write the Carly Rae Jepsen hit. That's not to say you have to like the prog stuff, but bro come on you are literally doing the exact same music elitism crap that metal and prog dudes do to pop. Would you say the same thing about Jazz standards? "Oh its a bunch of saxophone wankery then some trumpets and there's like no melody line and the beat is all over the place!" Pop music isn't harder to write as music, what makes it seem "harder" by your metric is figuring out how to write something that has widespread mass appeal while being simple. The goal in pop writing is not per se artistic expression (from a pure music perspective) as much as it is commercial viability. Pop and prog are both hard to write but for very different reasons and in very different ways.
Well said!
Nicely said, but I have to disagree with the last thing you said. Pop is very easy to write.
What's hard with pop music is making it stand out and selling it. Any musician can write a popsong. They can probably do that in less than an hour by literally using the 4-chords of pop and standard song structure.
What's hard about making pop music is the sound engineering required to make it have a radio quality sound, having a pretty face to represent the music and a singer talented enough to perform the song. Pop music is more about entertainment than artistery. It's extremely industrialized music that follows a formula, often written by the same producers over and over again. With only a little bit of musical theory and knowledge, anyone can write a popsong.
However, it's not gonna sell.
If Dream Theater one day decided to write a serious mainstream pop song, got Justin Bieber and Arianna Grande to sing and perform it while having Max Martin produce and mix it, I can guarantee it would be a hit played on the radio.
@@henrikswanstrom9218 I agree with you, you said it much better than what I was trying to convey (I was probably being a little too diplomatic)
I'm surprised this comment has so little likes. And I'm saying this as not the biggest Prog fan myself.
This is an amazing open minded comment. 👍
@@henrikswanstrom9218 pop music doesn't even need to stand out in order to become a hit. Have you listened to the radio lately? Most radio hits nowadays are almost identical.
Also; while it's true that producing top tier pop music requires a highly skilled engineer, prog or metal or what ever is even more demanding because of the sheer amounts of everything that goes into complex music (mics, beats etc.)
At least we can rest easy knowing that prog will never be popular enough to kill rock music
I did not expect to laugh reading these comments
What??? Lmao
Modern prog, because Pink Floyd and David Bowie are still fairly popular.
It’s an extension of rock really.
Rock music will kill rock music. It doesnt even need prog's help
Many prog bands feature amazing songwriting and emphasize it over technicality (Genesis and Jethro Tull for example). You just cherry picked the most technical and flashy ones to fit your narrative better.
This just seems like an unnecessary attack on a super niche genre.
My wife is a Professional Chef. I totally understand why she has zero interest in eating at Mc. Donalds..... I love Mc.Donalds, But I understand that her entire life's work is built around a palette for 5 star food, not fast food slop.
I Have been playing guitar for 20+ years. My wife loves pop punk stuff........ But after that many hours on a guitar, she understand that I have no interest in 3 chord punk bands. Progressive music is just objectively better to me...
I dont have the advanced palette for elite 5 star dining.
She doesnt have an advanced musical ear for elite musicianship.
Its simply different strokes for different folks sir. And thats ok!
Hell yeah!
Preach
Exactly! With music being one of the most subjective of our shared cultural areas it's best not to be automatically dismissive of what others DO find value in. I can find at least some value in any genre of music that is well played.
Dude, reading your answer was the best. I grew up in Punk Rock, but King Crimson is my favorite rock band ever - they blew everything I perceived as music away. I'm more into Fusion/Jazz nowadays, but when I play the drums or my guitar, I usually go for punk rock cuz that's what I can do. Still, I've touched the surface enough to truly appreciate the so called virtuous people, you know? Those that dedicated their lives to learning an instrument, becoming one with it...it's just e fucking beautiful thing to witness, you know? This video is pure insecurity to me, it was cringe as fuck. Dude's way out of his league. Which is fine, no one has to know everything about anything, but take a fucking chill pill. They're not attacking you because you don't get them.
@@sixtofive You really hit the nail on the head about there being value in music that is played well... Popular scenes and genes change with the seasons, but good musicianship never goes out of style.
When you're elitist but in reverse.
I've dubbed it post-elitism.
Reductionist? Or pessimist?
Anti-eliteism?
Idiot?
anti-intellectualism, but for music
How the hell do Porcupine Tree never get mentioned in these conversations?!
They’re not as heavy as the “prof metal” bands, but in terms of being progressive in tasteful, song-oriented ways, they were/are in a league of their own
P/t does not get enough credit.
Because then he would not be able to push his biased narrative.
I am coming from Steven Wilson because I look for similar stuff. Was asking the completely same question. He is the king of prog rock. Want more of that perfection.
Definitely see where he’s coming from and I see both sides of the argument. As a musician, it’s hard to see past the skill that’s being used to play the song, but sometimes it’s a little frustrating to hear someone on the radio that can barely sing, doesn’t play an instrument, has someone else write their songs, and is making insane money doing it, when their are a lot of far more talented people that get zero recognition. Guess it just comes with the territory.
You are absolutely right. Maybe Porcupine Tree is not considered as Prog Metal but more as Prog Rock. And here you it is more difficult to hide behind complicated fast and loud riffs. Maybe the issue discussed in the video is purely a Metal-related one
Surprised Coheed wasn't in this discussion. Thats a "prog" band that absolutely understands pop sensibilities, has a punk rock ethos and background, AND exclusively writes concept albums and indulges in the occasional 10 minute sweeping epic. They're like the prototypical band showing that prog can absolutely be accessible and catchy.
Can’t mention a band that disproves his point...
He’d find some way to shit on them.
Or like, any of the Prog greats like Rush, Yes, Asia, Pink Floyd, etc
Finn only talks about bands that support his lies.
Claiming that Dream Theater doesn't have hooks or choruses and is just a bunch of riffs is dishonest.
The dude listens to CardiB and Hardcore, he wouldn't know composition if it #1 on Billboard.
💯. Coheed is king.
Maybe, like seemingly half the fucking people who discuss Prog, he doesn't consider Coheed Prog (but they are)
“Riffs are not a song”
Stoner Doom would like a word.
Haha totally different vibe and intent
Sleep enters the chat
Follow the smoke to the riff filled land!
Stoner Doom/Stoner Rock has become such an incredibly boring, derivative, cut and paste genre which I guess was pretty inevitable. But Sleep and Kyuss will always be badass
@@KnivingDispodia that can be said for every single genre of music. Blues, Rock, Jazz, Grunge, Doom Metal, Rap, Pop. All of it has been beaten to death. However, it’s all about finding that sparkly gem amongst the dirt.
Dream Theater does use pop song structures, it’s just that the bridge is 15 minutes long haha
"Swim to the Moon" follows a verse-chorus-verse-chorus-solo-chorus structure--it just happens that each section is fairly complex.
Haha well put
There's a solid reason why Images and Words is regarded as one of the best metal albums of all time...not just from prog but from all subgenres. It's catchy but also insanely complex, almost to the point where you feel like they're showing off. But you can still sing along to most of it just like any pop rock song on the radio. I personally believe Metropolis pt.2 or Octavarium are probably better musically speaking but they're not as catchy.
😂
Sad but true
Once a friend said to me "We learn to enjoy art". Some forms of art are easier to digest and become popular, some are more complex that you need to give it some time and more attention to understand what's going on. After that you decide whether you like it or not. People would just walk by a great painting, but for those who can appreciate it can stand in front of it for 20 minutes being amazed by a painting. Majority people wouldn't bother with prog, too much happening at the same time. But prog fans are people who once learned to enjoy this kind of art and become used to it
Yeah, he doesn’t seem to understand that the fans of prog don’t want bands to be super catchy and poppy. That’s why they listen to prog. To get away from the other stuff.
Whenever someone says “it’s impossible to put us into a genre”... chances are they’re prog.
or Surfbort
Ween is now a prog band
@@venus9343 ahh wuhhh? I know they found a second life on the jam circuit oi didnt even kno they were making new music
Could really be alternative tho. That would be my first thought actually.
In my experience, at the “local” level anyhow, it usually just means they have no sense of direction and are a generic garage band without good writing OR complexity.
When it comes to Prog, I'll just quote Mike Muir, "Just 'cause you don't like it, don't mean it ain't no good, and, just 'cause you don't understand what's goin' on, don't mean it don't make no sense."
This right here is dead on. I like this guys views usually, but this one just comes off as he doesn't know what he is talking about and almost elitist. "Kind of a "I know what good music sounds like, and this isn't it."
It's funny because a lot of the music he lists as his favorites back in the day most people would say the same thing.
It's called an argument from personal incredulity.
@@michaelmalinovsky9499 imma be real never seen someone act elitist against prog lol.
Was just rocking that song this morning at work!
Oh the typical "I understand, tool is not for everybody" dude
That's one of the things I love about Dream Theater and Opeth, they write GOOD songs.
Opeth is super underrated.
@@user-fj6kk1vo8n How is Opeth underrated? They're one of the most sucked off metal bands in history. (for a good reason tbf)
Dream Theater wrote one good song. Pull me under.....that's it.
@@MrKylederp ah yes the only good metal song is entersandman by Metallica
@@MrKylederp ....and that’s why their career ended right after that album in the early 90’s.
This was painful... "Riffs are not a song." By that logic, beats are not a song. By that logic, Acapella arrangements are not songs. You can't just take one thing, isolate it, say that it doesn't count. Rarely are riffs presented in isolated form. They serve a purpose: to engage the listener. Just like not every pop chorus is good, not every riff is good. In my personal opinion, some of the best riffs are written by prog artists because they find a way to make the instrument their voice.
Not the first time Finn has had a really stupid opinion.
So, what's wrong with guitar nerds having their own genre to enjoy amongst themselves?
If they' have a community with common interests, let them be happy. Go make your own prog if you don't like it.
The issue he mentioned is that what most modern prog bands are doing does not fit the "progressive" definition: testing the limits and breaking ground
@@icchorist And Nu metal isn't new anymore. It's a genre, it has a name, complaining that the genre doesn't perfectly fit the name is unnecessarily nit-picky.
@@icchorist You catch more bees with honey than vinegar. Bitching at guitarists for doing what they like is just gonna make them double down.
As a classical musician I felt this post. Not everyone's tea, sure, but it's also what gets me out of bed in the morning.
@@icchorist autistic semantic nitpicking.
I watch every video you put out but this was honestly painful
You should have seen how mad the black metal fans were when made a similar video.
I kinda agree with what he said on the video but it was still painful to me 😂
I think Spiritbox box is a perfect example of writing something catchy with a simple structure but actually being subtly quite technical. Definitely my favorite metal band out there right now.
Hard agree, there needs to be something to hook onto aside from the overly complicated guitars
Jinjer’s another amazing prog metalcore band (coincidentally also well known for their frontwoman) who connect intricate, heavy riffs with beautiful melodies and make songs that don’t take a Berkelee degree to appreciate. No hate for the ultra 197/16 songwriters out there, but their niche is just that - a small group of potential fans who can get behind it. Mike and Courtney’s chemistry in Spiritbox, and all of the musicians in Jinjer, just bring something together that really balances technical wizardry with solid, accessible songwriting
This guy gets it.
still wish they did a few more oldschool iwabo type albums after courtney came on but transforiming into spirit box was a very textbook example of being a progressive band
Born of Osiris also does this quite well
Bro there is a whole universe of differences between Rush/KC/Zappa and the more recent ones
Devin Townsend is a good example having the rifts and the catchy lyrics.
Yeah but that doesn't make a good click bait video.
psychotic waltz too
also Devin writes Songs, he doesnt have 5 minute sweeping solos
Devin is not really prog though, it has a lot of prog influences though
@@pedrosilvaproductions listen to ocean machine or terria and get back to me on that comment.
You provided a great example in Eddie Van Halen. Here’s a great quote from him:
“I don’t know shit about scales or music theory,” Eddie told Rolling Stone in 1980. “I don’t want to be seen as the fastest guitar in town, ready and willing to gun down the competition. All I know is that rock & roll guitar, like blues guitar, should be melody, speed, and taste, but more important, it should have emotion. I just want my guitar playing to make people feel something: happy, sad, even horny.”
Damn dude... That's some intelligent stuff right there. Noice.
Its funny that most of eddie's stuff is not particularly fast (compared to what we see nowadays), and not extremely technical. What it is indeed is very VERY creative. And it was incorporated on an amazing sounding band. It was the perfect mix of technicality and creativity
It's really funny Finn included Van Halen to counter his misinformed critiques of prog. This is what Steven Wilson, arguably the modern king of prog, said about Eddie Van Halen:
“I know he’s an extraordinary musician, and it’s always sad when an extraordinary artist dies, [but] I was never a fan of the so-called shredder mentality. And I think in many ways, he was the father of that whole kind of movement. I never understood that ‘playing as fast as you can’ thing. And I know that wasn’t all he did - I know he was a more flexible musician than that - but I think that the legacy that he has, Eddie Van Halen, is in creating the shredder phenomenon, which is something so vile to me. That kind of idea that you play music almost like you’re playing an Olympic sport is kind of anathema to my kind of ideas on creativity and music.”
Yeah the Eddie Van Halen reference was amazingly ironic considering the recent Steven Wilson controversy. Finn criticises prog for being too 'fast and shreddy', praising EVH in it's place, whilst prog legends are criticising EVH for being too fast and shreddy lmao
I agree that a lot of the genre can be riff salad as you say, but bands like Polyphia and BTBAM have clear structure and hooks. Colors is a highly structured album with a clear narrative and thought given to every instrument including vocal melodies and their cohesiveness. And ployphia has clear hooks. It is not just about how fast or good the guitars are, there is a clear emotion response that comes from the music alone. I think that response is much stronger than that of music with lyrics. Idk maybe its just me.
Agree with polyphia. I hope I don’t blow people’s minds but it’s like bluegrass. Supporting the melody with complex harmonies
@@theforrester2780 polyphia is garbage.
@@123612100 🧢
BTBAM is awesome
Modern prog is a homage to Allan Holdsworth. Which is amazing, since he doesn’t get the credit he deserves. Without him we wouldn’t have Periphery, Animals as Leaders, and even perhaps Meshuggah.
Truth
I couldn’t get into 99% of modern Prog when I was younger. Once I got into Allan Holdsworth and once his music “clicked” with me, I was able to enjoy modern Prog so much more, and now many of these modern Prog bands are some of my favorite artists of all time.
Allan Holfsworth was a creative genius. One of the most important artists to ever pick up art.
Truer words.... Holdsworth should be a required listen/study..
Probably it's interesting to note that one of John Petrucci's biggest influences are "The Als": Al di Meola, Alex Lifeson, and Allan Holdsworth. For me, the former 2 sounds like normal guitarists. Holdsworth, on the other hand, was oddity. The first time I heard him, I was like "hmmm the sax player is good". Then I realised "o sh*t it was guitar. How on earth he come with such phrasing?". After some time listening to John Coltrane, then I got my aha moment.
Weird how you associate prog with bad songwriting. I associate it with some of the best songwriting you’ll find. Not every prog band is Djent-y. Opeth, Tool, Dream Theater (their songs aren’t all like Dance of Eternity), Porcupine Tree/Steven Wilson, Riverside, etc have some of the best songwriting full of emotions.
One hundred percent. Prog has some of the most thoughtful, deep lyricism and some of the most well-crafted songs. While there are a handful of prog bands who take the technicality too far, I would argue that this is actually the minority of prog music. People are always quick to jump on someone like John Petrucci for being too shreddy, yet they don't credit him for his absolute genius and emotion-soaked melodic playing.
All of those bands are guilty of what he's talking about though. Their music is anti-listener with little focus paid to hooks or catchiness.
@@darthsmolin This isn't an artistic problem beyond redemption.
@@darthsmolin hooks and catchiness arent a necessity for good music
Kayo Dot, Mastodon, Disillusion, Enslaved, Maudlin of The Well, Pain of Salvation... There's a lot great prog artists.
I never associated progressive music with necessarily good or bad music, but with artists that expand their tools to doing music - technically, instrumentally, structurally, lyrically and conceptually - when compared with not-progressive bands. That gave progressive artists a larger range of combinations, that not necessarily make their music good, but allows them to express themselves in more uniques ways. That's what I love about Progressive Music.
I remember people getting mad at Polyphia's trap influences on their latest album, but honestly I think it's a great way to make nerdy guitar music relevant.
Yikes. That sounds terrible all around
The difference is when the trap cicada hi-hat groove is played by a human, it sounds amazing.
@@tsptrevor when a trill sounds like a trill, not a sprinkler
That's a band that deserves to be called prog and innovative
Trap is over done at this point.
This video is the equivalent of someone who doesn't listen to hip-hop saying 'it's all just about sex, drugs and hedonism.' Lazy stereotypes that don't represent the genre. I enjoy your content but it's clear to see that when you analyse genres you don't listen to, especially in negative ways, you come across as very ignorant (indie, black metal etc). You seem to just be analysing modern 'djenty' metalcore playing odd time signatures, rather than prog rock itself. If you had made this distinction in the video, I think you would get a lot less criticism. Also, please don't dismiss valid critiques as 'angry haters' who can't handle the 'truth.' You'll never grow this way.
Yeah he lost me on his Indie stands for nothing video. He doesn't listen to the genre but not only feels confident enough to speak on it. but also to shit on it. For all this bullshit about rock not being accessible to marginalized communities, indie was very much an open door club for everyone but hey it's not hyper-pop so who cares right?
Well put!
@@pnel7799
His dismissive , condescending slating of Hüsker Dü lost me.
I swear to God he listened to a dream theatre album and made this video, but even that doesn't work because they have large concept albums that tell beutifal stories
He IS ignorant.
Dream Theater has many many examples of great songwriting and combining their skills with truly good sounding music
Lol nah
The guys in Dream Theater can write good songs. They can also do some amazing instrumental acrobatics.
What they do not seem to be able to do is put both in the same piece of music and have it fit together smoothly, without hard or jolting transitions.
@@HSR107 there’s certainly songs I would agree with you on that. But listen to erotomania for example and see if you still think that
@@brockbaldridge7620 Thanks for the recommendation. It's been a decade since I last listened to it so it was nice to get a refresher.
It's an instrumental and not a song.
A song, by definition, is a poem set to music.
Even then, this piece is exactly what the video was complaining about. Just a bunch of unrelated riffs thrown together as mostly a way for virtuosos to jerk their dicks for drooling fanboys. There's absolutely no attempt to explore the concept behind the title. (thinking someone is in love with you when they're not)
Even in its place opening the mind beside itself suite it's still just a pointless dick flapping exercise because while its title is (very) loosely related to the themes of Voices there are no music themes or leitmotifs from Erotomania carried over into Voices (or the silent man).
So, yeah, they can write some really good songs and they can do some amazing instrumental acrobatics but they can't (or don't want to) make the two work together smoothly AND they either can't (or don't want to) compose concise suites.
@@HSR107 Don't know where you got that definition but that's not what a song is.
If a song is a poem set to music, how has classical music and many other genres without lyrics thrived if they're not "songs"?
Polyphia has huge hooks. Don't know what this dude is talking about.
A lot of really good prog rock bands do. But I think he is focusing too much on the bad stuff. I mean Galneryus has some pretty big hooks and they are definitely prog.
Punkbrain. Sounds like a person who loves 4chord songs in 4:4 following the standard intro - verse1 - Reffrain - verse2- Reffrain - Bridge - Reffrain formula.
I don't understand how you can't grow tired of this cookiecutter structure.
@@henrikswanstrom9218 So? What's wrong with that basic song structure? Not all music has to be some big thing that has complex song structure and composition. And there's no need to look down on people who enjoy simpler music by calling them "punkbrain." Do you realize how much of an asshole you sound like?
YES has hooks for daaaaaays too, both the 'complicated' stuff but also hooks/catchiness
@@samuraicowboyx Nothing's wrong with the basic song structure. I just said that, to some people, that structure becomes boring as it's extremely predictable. When you play or listen to enough music and you can call out what the next chord and section is going to be naturally, that music starts to sound less inspiring to some. Simple music definitely has its place, and so does complex music. There's no need to take a shit on progressive music, it's there because musicians are writing music for themselves. They are not writing music for the asshole who made this video.
And what do you think about the author who made this video when he says that progressive music is "riffsalad" and bad songwriting? Sounds like the perfect example of someone who "doesn't get it" and just dismisses it because he can't comprehend it. Which is fine, it takes time, understanding and learning to understand progressive music. It's not written for normal people who can't hear or understand the intrinsic writing. This dude literally says the problem with progressive music is that it puts too much emphasis on technical prowess and shows shred videos of Yngwe Malmsten and Michael Angel Batio. Those guys play shredguitar and neoclassical, that's COMPLETELY different genres. Just show how completely clueless he is.
I'm gonna sound pretentious when I say this, which is unfortunate, but progressive music is music made by musicians and usually enjoyed by other musicians. That's why it's often very hard for people who enjoy simple music to get into it. Normal people who don't work with an instrument 24/7 simply don't listen to or play music as much as musicians. It's only natural for some of these musicians to get bored with simple song structures and want to expand what they're doing. We all want to advance and improve. It's not like a painter is gonna pain stick figures his whole life or some talented LOL player is gonna stay bronze his whole life. Some people want to reach a higher level with what they're doing, and to some musicians that entail writing progressive music because it challenges them and their listeners. I'm not an painter, I'm not a mathematician and I'm not a philosopher.
It's notlike I'm gonna call a post-modern painting "Color salad", or a parabel fifth grade derivative equation "number salad", or a philosophy thesis "word salad" because I don't get it. I've not had the training or interest to learn those things which makes me ignorant in trying to understand it. That's fine and I'm not gonna downplay any of it as talentless masturbation. The same thing goes for progressive music.
If you don't enjoy it, it was never written for you. And it's very clear that progressive music was never written for the author of this video, because the only thing he seems to enjoy is Power chords and rap music in 4/4. Which again, is fine, but why did he feel the need to make this video where he says that music he don't listen to has bad songwriting?
This man took a look at the Djent scene and was like "Yup, no other progressive music exists, it's all just riff salad"
Indeed, sad to hear. Prog exists in every genre. I'm big fan of devin townsend ne obliviscaris, ayreon. And those three bands let every musician shine.
Thank you. This video is clearly coming from an isolated metalcore background with little knowledge of progressive rock.
Leprous, Devin Townsend, etc. is prog as well, but they have far more memorable vocal lines and choruses than most of the pop artists. And hardly any riff salad
He did the same thing with indie. No surprise here.
When you make a video on Prog & don't mention Opeth, it's already irrelevant.....
"They place way too much emphasis on being good at your instrument."
I never realized the pure evil these "talented" musicians are dishing out
I'm done 💀
Holy shit I just lol'd like goddamn I'm ded
Dunno man.
I don't think anyone who listens to Tool can possibly think "what this song needs is more hooks, it just doesn't sound enough like an actual song". A lot of Tool songs area long, but they're very tightly orchestrated. It's a little bit like saying "Beethoven tried too hard, he should have unfinished more of those symphonies".
Tool is like the only prog band worth listening to
@@soully98 You are really ignorant.
Tool would be one of the exceptions though, where the songwriting is paramount. It's more like they have an affinity for the epic than massively technical songs. I mean Sober is two chords and its still my favourite Tool song. Kinda like how Pink Floyd is a lot less complex than King Crimson, Genesis etc. Both examples show Finn's point about the more song based prog bands being the biggest.
Tool sounds like they only know how to use the lower registers of their instruments, and don't know any emotion other than anger.
Finn doesn't like Tool's fanbase, but with his taste in music he probably likes Tool's music more than he wants to admit.
In other news, craft beer sucks because Bud Light is the best selling beer. You don’t need complex flavor, education, skill, or passion to make a good beer. You just need like 4 ingredients, a giant factory and a tasteless, loyal customer base!
You can take the Bud Lite from my cold, dead hands.
Got em
Yeah this is a good fucking break down of this video
On the flip side, Trying to smash rare hard to find ingredients together and staring me in the face saying "you must recognize this beer as good, it doesn't have to taste good, you should just appreciate that its rare. "
Hit that nail on the head sir.....
This guy could learn a thing or two from Rick Beato. He very clearly misses the point.
I doubt that would work. Rick speaks production and music theory; Finn speaks scenes, marketing and mass appeal.
Rick is a musician and a producer. He understands music because he works with making it. This guy does not, he's more concerned with mainstream success and obviously doesn't play an instrument at a proficient level so doesn't understand. Prog music is music written by musicians for themselves. It's appeal is usually for other musicians or those who've developed a more advanaced taste in music. It's for nerds basically. There's a huge disconnect here. Prog music requires priming and learning to get into, that goes for all advanced music, including Classical and Jazz which also are progressive genres.
One does not simply go from listening to very basic music like Pop or Rap into a progressive song and understand what's going on. You need to train your ear, often for years to understand what's going on. A person who only looks for the next chorus to sing along to or bass drop to jump to will never understand the intrinsic sections of a progressive song. And the problem, as stated before, is because they don't hear it. It's just notes and noise to them. (Talking about mainstream listeners here)
I know this because I was in this boat myself. When I was young I got into metal music by starting with the simpler stuff. I listened to Nu-Metal which got me into heavy music and catchy choruses. If I would've listened to progressive music at that time it was just wankery to me. I hated solos and wanted to hear memorable choruses I could sing along to from bands like Linkin Park, Slipknot and Deftones et.c. But as time grew my taste developed and I got into more advanced music. Mainly Melodic Death Metal(Because of Catchy choruses) and Metalcore. This included bands like Soilwork, In Flames, Killswitch Engage, All That Remains, Scar Symmetry et.c. The growling and shredding was just there, but at that time the choruses and melodies were captivating to me. Making the leap to songs without clean singing was really hard at first. But with time I started to appreciate the actual guitars and drums more than before. My first leap to listening to songs without clean singing included Parkway Drive, Children of Bodom, August Burns Red, Kalmah et.c.
This opened a WHOLE new can of worms and I actually gave Deathcore a shot after previously mocking it because it thought it sounded like men suffering from throat cancer.
But after enough exposure and actually "trying" to like it, it just clicked and I understood what people found appealing with it after previously only have heard angry noise.
Now it's one of my favorite genres to listen to. At this point I got my first guitar and started playing it daily for hours as a hobby. I've always wanted to play my favorite songs.
I then remember one day in 2012 where I heard the song Flourish by The Contortionist at random and I was mesmerized by that song. This was my first exposure to great progressive music as it mixed two of my favorite elements together, Deathcore and hyper melodic song writing. I started looking up bands like them and got introduced to the whole Djent and modern prog scene and that's where I'm at now. I still love all the old music I started listening to way back and listen to and play those songs consistently daily. But to me, progressive music and its songwriting is just superior to all previous genres I've gotten into. Hooks and catchy choruses are less interesting to me nowadays. I've listened to too much of it. I want to hear new elements in music that surprise me and catch me offguard. Things that make me think: "Wow, I've never heard or thought of that before." To me, only progressive and melodic elements in music are able to do that. Sing along to the same chorus 3 times in a row in a song just doesn't do anything for me anymore.
Beato is the man. Yes, his videos are long and sometimes repetitive, but I love how he breaks down a lot of our intuitions about modern pop music and shows how they have an actual basis in the music theory and production techniques used in the songs.
@@henrikswanstrom9218 pretty this dudes a drummer 🤣🤣
I know a lot of people that aren't guitar nerds or play music and sill like Porcupine Tree, the Mars Volta, Kansas or Deer Hunter. And that does not precent me from liking Royals or Lady Gaga either in fact both have insane production value to me.
As a prog fan I definitely agree with this the salad can get soggy, I also enjoy pop but feel its going the other way and once you've heard the first 35 seconds you've heard the whole song. Need a middle ground for both
100% this
That’s why I love Rush. They did crazy prog *and* catchy pop.
Fax
I like how this isn't even really a criticism of Prog, more so just a handful of bands you dislike that overemphasize on guitar riffs. Yet you still had to put "progressive music" in the title to generate those outrage clicks.
Honestly who listens to a AAL song and thinks they are trying to apeal to anyone other than musicians. im more than happy as a drummer to listen to songs that push the boundaries past a 4/4 rock beat lol
exactly my point. These criticisms do not apply to the great classic bands that created the genre. Like Yes, Genesis, King Crimson, Jethro Tull, Van Der Graaf Generator, Frank Zappa, and many many more. Its like making a "problems with metal" video and not talking about Sabbath, Metallica and Iron Maiden and only focusing on bands like Infant Annihilator and shitty bandcamp black metal.
It's just how youtube works 🤷♂️
😂
@@ryanbazail based. I feel like he’s talking more about math rock than prog
We need a video named "The problem with Punk Rock MBA."
HAHAHAHAH agree
Bruh HAHSHAHAHA I DIE 😂😂😂
Yes
Hell yes!
Here's my take: Finn the business/self-help guy is awesome. He packages a lot of good info in an easy-to-understand way and relates it to pop culture in order to get people interested who would otherwise avoid this stuff like the plague. He does a good job of interacting with his viewers and giving useful feedback.
Finn the music critic is bad. He has a very specific idea of what good music consists of. Unfortunately, there are two flaws with this idea. The first is that it's never clearly articulated anywhere in his videos, so his criticisms can't be situated within any kind of framework that would make them intelligible. The second is that his idea of what good music is seems to conflate mass commercial viability or popular appeal with musical quality--and we can't know this for sure because he's never defined what "good music" means to him (problem #1). So his critical videos consist of comments that make sense to Finn, but not the viewers, plus the same lame joke about how people who like X kind of music are virgins/boomers/have bad fashion sense. Did I get it right?
Generally I have found that it is a genre for musicians. As a guitarist, I totally love the technicality and I would argue there are some great artists and songs. It's probably the exact opposite of punk rock in the realm of rock. I would not say one is better or more worthy than the other, but that they are different arts with different goals.
Some punk rock can be extremely progressive though, for example bands like Drive Like Jehu, Unwound, Fugazi, Slint, and although they aren't really punk anymore, My Bloody Valentine. All of those bands kick the shit out of most prog bands any day imo.
@@ultimadum7785 great bands and great point, I'm just trying to say it's hard to make a sweeping value statement over all of prog. There's a lot of good stuff in there. And to your point, Fugazi kicks ass.
@@billyfrickleman3212 yeah but I think "prog" as a genre is really restrictive when you think about it. I think a band should just be progressive and not have to go out of their way to call themselves progressive. Both genres do seem to have opposing viewpoints on the serface though. Fugazi is probably the greatest four piece band ever. Every member of that band is absolutely perfect for their role.
Was thinking the same thing. It is the polar opposite of punk rock. Many prog artists focus on their skill and the bad ones forget to create a song that flows, but with punk rock the dudes forget to tune their instruments and play 3 chords over autistic screeching. The good (nay great) artists such as Periphery and Tesseract combine both. Writing a technical song with an odd time signature and a catchy hook in such a manner that the layman doesnt even realise it. That's skill. And honestly that is why Periphery, Polyphia and Tesseract are popular. Damn, this upset me more than it should hahaha, still love Finn McKentey's vids.
@@reinhardtpienaar1316 you shouldn't. He lies in most of his videos to push a hidden narrative.
Imagine making a video about prog and saying "there are no catchy hooks" or "was that a great vocal hook?" and putting Dream Theater footage in there.
Dream Theater has a catchy hook in nearly every song, but not just one, but several at least
1.- the fact that they are one of the top prog bands ever, prooves the point of the video, they DO have great songs and pay attention to hooks, just like de Van Halen example
2.- YET they're most praised song in the prog world is the fucking Dance of Eternity. It is literally their signature song and IS BORING RIFF SALAD in odd time signatures
Because that's what a riff is supposed to be, a catchy hook. Idk what Finn is on about here
@@natas.cancioncitas 1 - The point of the video is one thing, adding them to a group of bands saying "prog is boring" is another. I get the point, but saying that and then putting pictures and videos of the band is simply dumb, as you said it yourself: they have great songs.
2 - The most praised prog song in the world by guitar nerds. I introduced my friends to DT because they heard it first through the game "Rock Band" and Panick Attack is their favorite song. My favorite song is another one and so on. Is it hard? sure and people know it, but the most praised song by anyone who is NOT a guitar nerd is not that one. To each its own i guess
@@natas.cancioncitas Dance of Eternity has a cool ragtime section though...
I don‘t think prog has problems. I think Finn has a problem with prog.
Or you could just check your own bias
@@atvena that's what the guy in the video should do. I know that knowing how to play an instrument is optional to join a punk band, but that's no reason to hate on bands that make complex music.
@@sted21 people can like what they like
I mean every song on Tool Lateralus is insanely good song writing. Prog is awesome
I absolutely love every Tool album and I don’t think Tool has this supposed problem that this video is explaining
Every is a bit to much... Maybe every song from Aenima and Lateralus.
Dude Tool was the soundtrack to my late teenage years and I'll be the first one to say that your statement is false. Ticks and Leeches is just an excuse for Carey to flex his drumming skills, I love the guy but that song really acts as a speed bump in an otherwise solid ride of an album. The only front to back Tool album is Ænima and even then I skip all those weird ambient songs and the album would be better off if Jimmy was left out, that song is B side material.
Thing about prog is that it isnt tool,it isnt Dream theater,its a term of being progressive in music,being Innovative and creative
And is that why I can’t name or recall single Tool song even though I’ve known about the band since 2003 and have probably heard a few of their songs through out my life? 🤷♂️
I’m not even a musician, I just like how prog sounds 🤷🏼♀️
I discovered it after searching for metal with no screams
Lol, same here. But if you do want to venture into growling, try Opeth :)
you could try the mars Volta.
I agree with most of his take here but I think it is a bit unfair to it Polyphia and Tool in here. They are both examples of bands that have adapted progressive styles into good music.
@@snwboardguy04 tool is my favorite band, and I love polyphia as well
Based scream hater. Who wants to hear someone growling like a werewolf or squealing like a pig?
Agree with everything except the Northlane hook. That song is always stuck in my head. My fiancé hates heavy music and loves that song because of the chorus lol
Gotta agree: The chorus is catchy as hell. (Those verses though...whoof.)
same, really like the song
Yes totally. I think he used very bad examples for his arguments.
Agreed. I'd say Northlane isn't even a prog band, but a metalcore band blending EDM elements in their latest songs.
@@antson02 When he used Crystal Lake Apollo, which is one of the best metalcore songs of all time, I was out haha. I agree with his points, just bad examples.
I've seen fans sing guitar riffs at Polyphia shows, Animals as Leaders shows and CHON shows. These riffs are hooks in and of themselves! I think your point is only valid if these bands are complaining that they aren't getting enough commercial success. But if they're happy, I say just let them be 🤷♂️
When AAL played in Chile the public sung (or sang? Idk) all the riffs and solos
Agree with some things disagree with a lot of things Finn said. EVen though he said things should not be dumbed down and then goes on to say Royals is better than anything Dream Theater has ever done. Think you contradicted yourself. Agreed Riff salads are not always a song or listenable, but if every song has a catchy or poppy hook would there even be an u alternative to mainstream.
I feel like the mix of prog and being catchy is where music is at its best. Prog is a constant characteristic for most of my favorites music. Pink Floyd was not the most intricate but damn if it isn't some of the best music. Ne obliviscaris, polyphia, animals as leaders, Rivers of Nihil, Dream theater Between the buried and me, etc... All have varying degrees of difficulty, but they all get stuck in my head. Not just straight riff salad.
My thoughts exactly!
That's actually what got me the most about Ne Obliviscaris when I got their tab book. You'd think as an extreme prog metal band it would be super difficult to play. Nah, besides the solos the guitars just need a good rhythm player most of the time, and a lot of sections are just jamming on a couple easy chords. Plague Flowers verse is pretty much just A minor and E minor with slight variations
I really like the human abstract
@@frodijr Did you look at the bass tabs though? Haha. For reals though, imo, the basslines reeeeeally carry NeO songs - not saying anything bad about the guitars, just that the simple guitar parts are only elevated because the bass parts are so melodic and technical. Take "Forget Not" for example, where the first 5 minutes are just simple acoustic strumming beneath a long violin solo, but the bass is playing a more complex line that transforms the acoustic strumming into something interesting. Same goes for Plague Flowers as you mentioned.
i had the entirety of coma ecliptic stuck in my head for like 3 months straight at the beginning of this year. absolute earworm
“Progressive” lost it’s meaning the same way “alternative” did.
It's a genre, it describes a genre. Nu metal isn't new anymore, that's how genre names work.
Progressive never lost its meaning. That's why Fantomas and Animals as leaders exist. In fact, some of the alternative music still has experimental/prog aspect.
@@nilsar4357 you have a point, I’m old enough to to remember when the two genres shared the label. For instance, the alternative radio station played “progressive dance music” which at that time meant Depeche Mode & Information Society. “Progressive” and “Experimental” have similar meanings in the dictionary, but musically they can be at opposite ends of the spectrum.
"Alternative" died for me somewhere around the time that track from Rob Thomas and Carlos Santana was considered Alt. Oh, How the mighty have fallen. That being said, I love me some Divinex and Intervals. Sometimes I really don't want to hear a vocalist bleat on about some bullshit, and I want to hear the expressive qualities of an instrument as performed by a true master of the craft.
@@beegeezee505 I hear you on that. Musical mastery isn’t everything, but pop has gone WAY to simplistic. Earth, Wind & Fire aren’t considered a progressive band but a song like “Fantasy” is freakin’ Rush compared to Jonas Brothers. That used to be 40 radio!
PunkRockMBA: “Prog is only guitar focused”
Rudess/Banks/Emerson….: “Huh?”
Or VDGG
@@kol9495 Absolutely!
Bit more underground but I had to think of DMM's Eco album from a couple years ago. Atmospheric electro pop prog stuff that has nothing to do with noodling around or anything. That's from a dude who did full on stereotypical djent just 4 years prior to that.
@@MellonVegan
Not familiar…DMM: David Maxim Micic? Based on “DMM Eco” lookup. Anyway, seems like a very interesting creative musician. I see a list of albums on Wikipedia page. Will check them out. Thanks 🙏
can someone tell me what the song names are @ 2:50 , 7:00 , 7:12 , 13:23 ,and 16:23 ?
"That's why a song like Royals by Lorde is way more impressive to me than anything Dream Theater has ever done."
What
I mean Royals, with all of its simplicity, stays in your head and you can't stop thinking about it. I could listen to the best prog song ever and I might think it's cool but when it's done Shake It Off by Taylor Swift will always be infinitely better to me because she's not trying too hard. She made a great song and that's what should matter. Would you rather watch Blues Brothers or some dumb M Night Shyamalan movie with a needless plot twist, undoing everything he's built so far. Beauty in simplicity
@@jaketalkstunes If you like simplicity:
ruclips.net/user/results?search_query=dream+theater+the+silent+man
ruclips.net/video/MzovR0s7EbI/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/S42r7EQ0lmw/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/IG6s_AAO1vA/видео.html
and many more
I'm not gonna argue with people on the internet. Just pointing out that the sentence I originally quoted baffles me. Literally baffled lol
I know right!!!!
@@jaketalkstunes Shake it Off is a whole bag of cringe and I like Taylor Swift. Also, a song being catchy doesn't mean it's a great song because they can be immediately accessible and yet very shallow. Stuck in your head after 1 listen and dried up after 5, soon becoming a very dull affair. A great progressive or experimental song can often take multiple listens to appreciate fully and then feel timeless. Of course there is pop music that does this, but a song stuck in your head or catchy really doesn't determine quality. I had Limp Bizkit/Kid Rock songs stuck in my head when I was 13 and now I can't stand them.
Imagine being bethoven or tool and having finn correct them in the way they make there music.
If it's not 4/4 with a catchy chorus it's not good music. Kappa
@@henrikswanstrom9218 I know right. There's levels to music
"Concertos for 808 drum and orchestra are the next big thing in classical and if you disagree, you might be racist."
@@JAMBI.. Beethoven’s music is not technically wankery tho he actually had good song writing
@@abravexstove289 Beethoven was literally panned by critics all then time for a technical wankery, criticizing him for writing passages of music that only he could play
Finn: I listen punk rock. Punk rock is about being yourself and not being liking from everyone.
also Finn: Progressive music should be easier and catchier because not everyone likes complex song.
I mostly listen to rap
@@ThePunkRockMBA that's irrelevant, his point still stands. You've been very into punk and respect the genre because its strong sense of individuality appealed to you.
@@ThePunkRockMBA and there's your problem,soulless talentless rap isn't real music while dream theater is and royals is an OK song but is shit compared to any prog band
@@ThePunkRockMBA That explains everything.
It should be catchier if it wants to achieve any commercial viability or reach. Despite the technical skill required, prog has a pretty low floor and a really low ceiling for its potential audience. I think that's what Finn was getting at here.
“A modern day warrior
Mean, mean stride
Today's Tom Sawyer
Mean, mean pride”
Yep. No hook here. Wasn’t popular at all…
Douche.
dudu dudu dudu BWEEEdududu dudu, dudu dudu dudu BOM BOM BOM!
Though his mind is not for rent...
To any god or government ….best band ever
Rush has sooooooooooo many hooks it’s not even funny, even uhhh this one small Prog band, like, I’m not sure if you’ve heard of them, just a tiny band, that no ones EVER heard of, YES!
yeah no one's heard of this "Yes" band, something about owning a lonely heart? or a roundabout or something? i dunno.
"if it sounds good it is good" that's my motto
Bingo.
I've watched 2 videos from this dude now, and I think I've got it: edgy overstatement -> slight walk-back -> include himself in the criticism -> give examples which don't seem to fit the original criticism -> throw in some tangential information -> pivot to a new edgy overstatement before the audience has a chance to think about it.
Anyone get a different order? Did I leave out anything?
Don't forget generalizing thousands of musicians with absolute phrases that hardly apply to any of them
That’s about right!
@@ThePunkRockMBA At least you admit it.
You forgot "insulting a genre by caricaturing the fans as socially awkward males of some kind."
Honestly I think that Northlane hook is a pretty strong vocal hook so you kinda lost me there but in general I agree with most of what you said. I'm a huge prog fan and there are a lot of artists who don't really do much with all the extra space you have to work with in prog, why expand your horizons when you can't make the most of that expansion? Thats exactly why my favourite prog acts are bands like Periphery who have hooks and also make the most of the extra room they have to work with
Yeah, Marcus is a great vocalist who cares about his art, and you can hear that in the songs imo. He wouldn't sing something that just exists to fill the space. Plus that exact hook has been stuck in my head for days. So it does work as a hook, at least for some people.
@All Our Steelers Have Abandoned Us Yeah they're definitely a much more accessible band than most of the "djent" scene, they're pretty prog in the original sense, trying uncommon things like 4D being djent+DnB, but they're certainly not doing the overly technical music for nerds, at least not these days
Finn has a tendency to use northlane as a de facto ‘modern metalcore bad’. I don’t think he really gets them, on the basis of he’s probably never given them much of a listen beyond a couple popular tracks...
I mean, to be fair, they used to be one of the trademark prog metalcore bands in the past with albums like Singularity, so I get his point of referring to them often. Now they pushed it further to a more accessible, yet still more intricate and detailed way with how they work with electronics and variety of influences.
Though the Clockwork was arguably the least fitting example he could've put there, I must admit.
Props to the people debating respectfully about Finn's take in the comments.
Debate is always welcome!
True but the fans are well known for being a**holes so props to them for showing intelligence above a 3rd grader and I know this doesn't matter but I do live and deal with autism homicidal rage depression and on various medication
@@ThePunkRockMBA do u hate mentally challenged people? Because if so I am obligated to apologize
Great music shouldn’t be defined by skill level or how “palatable” it is. Music at is core is about expression not necessarily by doing crazy shit or by making a hit song. That’s why Prog appeals to me because in theory you can do whatever you want and you don’t have to adhere to a conventional song structure however I like pop sensibilities because it gives that freedom of expression context when you marry the two and do a bit of genre bending it allows you to do some really cool stuff while writing a good song
This guy is missing the whole point of prog.
Prog is for music nerds , the complexity of the songs is what we want to hear , it keeps our interest in the song wondering what new sounds or shapes we can hear.
Also we gotta mention that the better player you are the better you can express yourself with your instrument, that's why prog has soo many talented musicians , that leads me to the final point , prog music is mostly for people that play an instrument 🎸
Don’t know if you read the title bro but it’s actually “The PROBLEM with Prog” not why we LIKE prog. Maybe listen first before coming to a half baked conclusion
@@fishcakes5626 the whole video is a 20 minutes half baked conclusion... My boy went full Stephen A Smith with comments like "prog is a dude with a 5k guitar jacking off to riff salad"
@Joel Hattori that why you have a lot of music genres, but prog is basically for music nerds
I agree with you, Alfredo!
@@fishcakes5626 Except that, apart from the title, that is not how the video is then presented. The video goes on to basically bash many things that makes prog prog.
Can't really see the problem, it's just you don't like it. I'm sure there is plenty of catchy prog music you can listen to.
I like prog riff and shred solos and appreciate the effort people put on they work. I love to watch videos of composers explaining how they made a song
tesseract is a perfect example of catchy prog. They have wild polyrhythms going on under a great soaring vocal chorus on a lot of their songs.
@@joystick2212 finally someone mentions TesseracT, the kings of groove
@@SebastianSer You're wrong. TesseracT are clearly talentless and only engage in bad song writing. A song needs to be in 4/4 to be good. You're also not allowed to use your instrument.
Tesseract has no trap beats.
Dude He Literally Said That He Likes Prog... You Don't Have Dementia... Right?
The lorde, dream theater compassion of complexity and difficulty was the only thing that really made me feel like he was trolling lol.
"guys with $5k guitar rigs but no frames for their beds" - hey my wife bought the frame for our bed. i buy the guitar rigs.
Sounds like the guitarist from periphery
This is actually me to the literal tee hahah. Except I just don't write any music instead of 8 minute long snooze-fests.
@@TheShyArmyTV I mean he just bought a Ferrari, and has Lambo and high-end Porche so I don't he's hurting for cash for furniture.
One of the best guitars I own was only 244$ no joke lol
It’s cray that you included TOOL on the cover. Very catchy songs and choruses...definitely focusing on the song. Also, not a crazy good guitarist. Simple, repetitive rifts.
It's easier to focus on the song when all songs are in D. 🤭
Yeah...guitar is easily the weakest part of Tool. However they have a crazy good drummer and bassist.
Well said. Their songwriting and hooks are better than any pop track out there.
@@richardclark1127 I wouldn't call Adam Jone's writing weak. Sure he's doesn't do highly technical guitar parts, but I certainly wouldn't call them weak.
@@adameury60 I didn't say they were weak overall...just the weakest part of the band. Tool is my favorite band and I have nothing but love for Adam...but Danny, Justin, and Maynard are at another level.
Bad take... and once again sugar coating when talking about his friends’ bands. Like periphery has bunch riff centered songs with crazy song structures. They are a band that those “gear nerds” love to hear. I think this “prog influence in metalcore” is also blown out of proportion here. Metalcore as a whole is still very chorus oriented, with a specific formula. Just cuz the band has a couple technical riffs, that doesn’t change it, imo.
The video itself was good, I just don’t really agree with the points made here.
That being said, while I still like prog and technical songs, I agree that “the more technical a song is != the better it is”
But in my opinion there’s space for both in music. You can play “simple music” and sound good or bad, and play “hard music” and sound bad or good.
Nailed it.
Periphery is my favorite Progressive metal band so I don't give a sh** less what he thinks.
I feel like there has been a prog tendency to metalcore for a while. Old Prada, for example, has a lot of aonga that depart from typical verse-chorus-verse structure, which was instrumental in getting me into extreme metal.
@@nicholashouse4261 I think old Prada was heavily influenced by chaotic old metalcore, hardcore bands like Converge, Pig destroyer, etc. But I get what you’re saying!
Sounds like a bunch of justifications for feeling like a genre intellectually threatens the high school genre limitations one may have placed on thier ego. It's clinging to such superficial reasoning....its like listening to a bully look for approval after the nerd they were attempting to make fun of left ten minutes ago unshook and with the last word.
This sounds like a guy who needs to feel like progressive music makes him inherently more intelligent due to his own insecurities
It´s clear you don´t like progressive rock and progressive metal. Most of the best bands right now are considered progressive: Gojira, Mastodon, Mashuggah, Opeth, The Contorsionist, Between the buried and me, Tool and many more.
Amen!
I don't think he said he doesn't like it but the way we look at it needs to be changed
He said that he loved a lot of it multiple times in the video just that a large chunk of it seems boring to him because the songwriting isn't great.
He’s interviewed Tommy from BTBAM on his podcast, lol. Don’t get me wrong, I love prog. My favorites are Mars Volta, BTBAM, Protest the Hero, but it’s just music for other musicians. Most of Finn’s takes are based on commercial success, which prog doesn’t do because it caters to a niche crowd.
@@christiansaldana3846 Isn't the "architectscore" he bashed the most commercially successful version of that style currently?
The world has enough pop choruses and bands, let the prog dudes do their stuff and push the genre
🤦♂️
thats the whole point of this video...
they arent pushing the genre... pushing the genre would be doing some of the shit he suggested in this video, to do just that.
their racing in circles, which is fun to watch but incidentally and ironically isnt very "progressive" in the definitive sense
@@KirbyLouis yeah, I kinda get it...there are tons of "riff salad" bands out there that I can't remember one single riff or line after hearing a full album. I just think that bands hope to achieve different goals. Some want to get big and some just want to try new things. And in both cases, 95% will fall short
Bro, back in the day it was a spectrum rather than a simple one or the other. But to be honest I like some prog like: Dream theatre, Tool, Meshugga and a perfect circle (Yes, I accidentally made a prog big four). As well as polyphia and periphery as enjoyable to non fans like me.
Not every song needs to be catchy. Mainstream success is not everything and focusing on the guitar is exactly what so many of us love! There are incredible prog bands and musicians who can make a song stuck in your head for ages. Not all music must fit mainstream taste and there are other ways to judge a song.
exactly, i would say most of extreme metal and mathcore isnt even slightly catchy, but its very sonically interesting to listen to
Did you even watch the video, mate? He already adressed everything you said, you're adding nothing to the conversation but repeating the same points he countered.
Every prog musician can use the same excuse you said, but way too often they are becoming the opposite of progressive: riff salads of rehashed, overproduced stuff with no soul or feeling.
Metal is becoming way too niche and small as a genre partially because of this. The way rock once rose to greatness and fame comparable to pop and rap, was thanks to mainstream bands that inspired the next generations of musicians out of a huge audience. These days, metal is becoming so small we can barely hope the next generation will even produce enough quality musicians who can make a living of this. Its a shame so many good prog bands can't produce more than a couple albums a decade...
@@MrAlepedroza you're saying that like it's a bad thing. I'm glad it's getting smaller, helps keep the posers out.
@@123612100 Trust me, metal is not the genre to be gatekeeping right now
@@icchorist it total is. When you have celebs like Kim Kardashian wearing morbid angel shirts it's time to gatekeep that shit.
Steven Wilson, Purcupine Tree, Anekdoten, Riverside... modern prog rock with great songwriting. Taking American bands mainly for doing generalizations is wrong.
Man, I think you're wrong on this one. People do care about this. Just because its not your taste doesn't mean it's not another's. Prog isn't trying to take over the world, it's in it's sub-genre. Opeth been operating for years and they're doing just fine.
Right?!?! I don't know how even mentioned tool 😂 like they have some of the most musically insane compositions. Like none of the stuff he said applies to tool
He spent the whole video talking about core bands. Like where's the prog rock?
A perfect example of a band that is all about song writing.
Tbf he is right, it's only prog heads (myself included) that cares about the technic...
Thank God someone mentioned opeth. There's so many huge prog or prog adjacent bands who contradict what he says. Think voivod, porcupine tree, Dillinger escape plan, king crimson
Don’t let mike the music snob hear this
Mike heard it, and he's displeased.
Hey Finn, remember when TOOLs latest album hit #1 on Billboard disproving everything you have to say?
He was huffing glue that day
However Maynard definitely can write cool lyrics and the band has melody as well as sick rythem. They don't just djent riff all day and call it an album.
@@garrydhintz8017 they exclusively do odd time signatures with one repeating phrase for 12 minutes. You're trying to make them sound like pop and they're the opposite of that.
And even if they don't djent they synth and have a song that is literally just crickets
@@colacp But they do all that without riff salad.
@@Ninjamanhammer "riff salad" is how midwits describe Bach, too.
Progressive rock is supposed to be a song/piece that builds as the music progresses. That's what it originally was supposed to be and I feel a lot of bands nowadays have forgotten that. I disagree on Dream Theatre, they have a lot of pieces/songs that capture the spirit of progression in the music, take Octavarium or Change of Seasons.
I don’t really like prog either but it really seems like you’re trying so hard to cater to younger kids now than before. Like I feel like you’ve been gushing over stripper rap, hyper pop and kinda stuff that while popular right now actually isn’t experimental like you say it is. It seems like you’re less and less genuine and more trendy every video, which I get from the business point of view. You just seem more and more trendy and it seems forced. As someone that been watching you for years it’s weird and almost corny now.
Nope its the opposite. I hid my opinions before. Though I’d try being more honest - but it may be hurting my channel (views are down), so I may go back to hiding my opinions again.
@@ThePunkRockMBA Or maybe you should just be less arrogant and obviously biased in your takes?
@@ThePunkRockMBA I think maybe you should just stick to things you really like, or at least have more than just a surface level understanding of. I get it, you don't need to like every single genre out there, but videos like this one and your Indie one just come off as arrogant and like you don't really understand the subject of the video. Your best work (and my favorite work of yours) comes from the stuff you love because you actually are informative and providing more than just sweeping generalizations and assumptions.
@@Ninjamanhammer Bruh, why do opinions get you so mad? There are 7.6 billion people, and every single one of them has bias.
@@Eternal420ninja The fact that biases exist doesn't mean we shouldn't call them and try to remove them.
I love that Northlane hook lol "Running out of.. TIMEEEEEEE"
It's creative imo
I often find myself agreeing with Finn says but totally disagreeing with the visuals he chooses for the message he is conveying. The video is complaining about riff salad and then he chooses to show a Northlane clip of a song with a very traditional song structure, a catchy as fuck and poppy chorus, and good lyrics with a great vocal hook. I think he could improve there for sure because his message often doesn't match the visuals
Took me weeks to get that hook out of my head
Yeah, I didn't know what he was getting at with that. I like that vocal hook
Great song!! Still jam that on a daily basis!
As a guy who likes Prog a lot, I liked this video a lot, however, I did have one slight problem, when speaking about the comparison between Dream Theater and Lorde, I felt like your wording of how "Royals" is more impressive than any Dream Theater song kind of implied that every song by Dream Theater is just ultra-complex and only focuses on guitar shreddery with little in regard to songwriting. which couldn’t be further from the truth IMO. This might piss some DT fans off, but IMO, songs like "The Answer Lies Within" and "The Spirit Carries on" are basically just Pop songs with some Prog elements and I could’ve honestly seen either of them making a Billboard year-end list
It shouldn't piss off any DT fans. The band has said that they enjoy the process of writing a 4min 4/4 song because it's actually far more challenging for them than a 20min song with multiple movements and countless time changes.
Some of my favorite DT songs are their simplest. Wither, I Walk Beside You, Learning to Live are all great "simple" songs.
They’ve admitted that there’s a pop side to their music that’s always been there thanks to their influences like U2, and it’s honestly one of my favorite parts of them. I think it sets them apart from a lot of other bands in the genre
That Dream Theatre comment just showed that he doesn’t know what he’s talking about but will make negative videos for views.
I watched this whole video just to tip back my Kava and say Cheee huuuu to 18:18 Awwwright!!
I love Dream Theater because their music is amazing and catchy.
I don't care if they're pushing boundaries, I just love what they're doing.
And that's all that matters, man. If you like it, fuck what anyone else has to say about it.
"Nobody cares how fast you can play" except for the 55,304 people who listen to Jason Richardson on Spotify every month
That's exactly .00015% of the global Spotify base (356M) or .003% of Machine Gun Kelly's audience (50M). Jason Richardson is a great player, but he is a microcosm of this video...A+ skill and will likely have zero long term impact on music culture. Then again, I'm just a hack who prefers a great song over a great solo...so what do I know.
@@jburdsinfuse 55k people doesn't equate to nobody, and Jason Richardson is but one of the many. The aggregated total is larger than most genres.
Also, guitar music is amongst the most popular. Jason Richardson is at the tip of the spear for an entire genre. He is already making the lasting impact you claim he will never make.
@@jburdsinfuse Also, great songs can have great solos. The two are not mutually exclusive.
I know you said you prefer a great song, but unfortunately, all I hear is that you prefer a simple song. If that's your bag, more power to you. Music is subjective. Go forth and like what you like. However, most of the comments in this thread stink of people who would look at a Picaso and say "... I could make that in 5 minutes with some crayons and a few water colours".
Well sorry guess ill throw away my thousands of hours of practice studying. Major chords WHOOO BABY
@@ianmartin2924 I'd love to see a statistic that supports your statement: "larger than most."
Rock music isn't and hasn't been the most popular genre in more than a decade no matter how you aggregate it. I'm a gigging guitar player...but no one wants to hear me play a riff that sounds like an equation on the fretboard, they want to hear "You Shook Me All Night Long"
The best design advice I’ve ever received was “it’s not finished when there’s nothing left to add, it’s finished when there’s nothing left to take away”
I hated hearing that so much when i was 22 😂
That's graphic design 101 shit right there homey
This is why IMO Octivarium was Dream Theater's best album. Every song nails the balance between technical and catchy. They didn't sacrifice clever, melodic vocals for ridiculous instrumentals and the guitar doesn't feel like the center of the band.
Octivarium drags on so much I’ve never found a catchy dream theater song
90's - early 2000's Arcturus, Katatonia, Opeth and Porcupine Tree were THE SHIT though!
I totally forgot about Porcupine Tree! Good stuff.
Katatonia was amazing in the 90's
“Hurr durr they no make three note hook and just play smarty pants solo”
As dumb as this argument is it’s also verifiably false. Several of the bands you mentioned have songs that are pretty simple when it comes to both form and compositional approach. Look at King Crimson for example. Songs like epitaph consist of like, five chords. Even looking at some of their more musically complex work like Frame by Frame. Despite the use of blazing fast guitar arpeggios and stacking different time signatures on top of each other, it all gets held together with that beautiful “frame by frame” vocal melody.
I can understand some of these complaints but they really only apply to very recent bands as opposed to the genre as a whole. It’s like saying “Classical music is bad because of Steve Reich. Even though none of my complaints apply to 98% of the other musicians in this genre, I’m gonna say it’s all bad now”
And the complaint about the music being really long and filled with pointless nonsense when most of this video is bloviation is rich. This video could have been cut in half and you wouldn’t lose anything of substance
Have you even listened to the video? Like King Crimson is a positive example he gave. The things that make Frame by Frame great that you described are quite literally what he was talking about; not losing sight of songwriting because of complexity and being actually innovative (fusing non-western music, prog rock and new wave) instead of aping other bands.
If you worked on your listening comprehension, you'd have noticed that he doesn't lump all of prog together, but describes a tendency of a lot of modern prog. He states like 5 times that he likes prog, even "nerd shit" like spastic ink, so it is indeed "rich" that you basically say "Yeah, I get hose criticisms, but it's not all like that", when that was never the argument. Stop typing while mad, it helps :^)
And btw listing examples of bands that do prog well isn't an argument against him describing a general trend in prog, especially when the video is largely about modern progressive metal, not 80s Prog Rock with New Wave influences.
@@BJSepuku
He never explicitly states that bands like King Crimson are good, and he implicitly shits on them by shitting on a huge amount of stuff they do in their music. Like they were quite literally just copying (or “aping”) Steve Reich on half that album. I’m pretty sure he even hearted a comment shitting on Rush because of “trying to hard to be complex” (I’m paraphrasing) which is crazy because they’re the LEAST like that out of most of the prog scene.
Hell he even shits on bands where the sole focus of the group is virtuosic guitar work. That just because they don’t have those little catchy vocal bits the song is trash.
You whine about me not using my listening comprehension and ignoring all the “good things” he says while YOU ignore all the dumb shit that he says. And him saying “uhhh.... but I like it too guyz” doesn’t negate everything else he said. Like imagine verbally abusing your mother until she cries and then saying “lol jk mom I love you” (maybe an extreme example but the purpose is to make a point)
My issue is most of this video is subjective whining about a particular style of music that addresses why the creator thinks that prog isn’t popular. He never gives a legit reason as to why it’s bad, he gives reasons why it’s not popular and attributes that to being “bad music”
He never even states why these things are bad on an artistic level, he just says “hurrrrrr not popular no 1 like fast shred music for guitarists” and then says they’re shit.
While I think basically everything Finn said is true, I don’t think anyone has any delusions about the fact that they’re basically making music for other musicians. I always thought that was kind of prog metal’s thing.
It's worth pointing out that being technically a proficient guitarist or drummer doesn't necessarily equate to good musicianship, i.e. keeping time, balancing, blending with other musicians and dynamism. The issue I have with a lot of metal music is the limited variation in timbre and texture. There isn't much liminal space between clean and distorted tones and not much use of space and resonance - there is sound plastered all over the place. What is also peculiar about contemporary progressive metal is the lack of instrumental variety - there isn't much use of keyboards, bowed strings, woodwinds, brass, percussion and other non-standard instrumentation unlike progressive rock of the 70s, hence why it's all guitar-centric. Seeing more guitarless metal bands as a whole would be great - Mr Macaille and Botanist are examples that come to mind.
did you ever think that maybe you could just not be into a certain style of music? Instead of having to come up with some vague argument as to why that style is inherently bad, all while making passive aggressive remarks towards a lot of people.
Why is it always “The problem with _____” and not “Why I can’t get into ______”? I know it’ll help your views, but your negativity and close mindedness can have a real life effect on the scene you claim to be a part of. Your lack of nuance and knowledge on the subject material at hand is pretty irresponsible. With someone as large as a platform as you, you just constantly push negativity and division. It’s really disheartening because I can’t think of any other music related channels on RUclips that can act in such bad faith (say maybe except some guitar oriented channels like Stevie T).
Watching your videos over the years, it’s pretty clear that you’re a pretty negative person, where almost everything out of your mouth has to be some passive aggressive quip, even if disguised as “all in good fun.” And if you barely listen to the kind of music you make videos about now, saying that you mostly listen to rap and pop, why do you continue making content on this kind of stuff? Your heart is clearly not in it and it shows throughout your content.
Sounds to me like you are reacting emotionally to what you think I said rather than what I actually said. No matter how hard I try to be clear that this is intended as a constructive suggestion, some people will just take it as a personal attack.
And when I do more positive videos about things I personally like, I get tons of negative feedback AND lower views. So there’s really no incentive for me to make videos like that.
@@ThePunkRockMBAI mean, if you want to call me delusional for misinterpreting your arguments, I guess that’s fine? Maybe? But to be honest, it’s really hard to take you seriously when you pull the “constructive criticism” card. Because, inherent to your brand, you see music as a product. You don’t see it as an art, rather as a commodity and its relation to cultural and market changes. Which, there is value in that, don’t get me wrong. However when that’s how you choose to frame your understanding of music, it can undermine the artistic expression and creativity that goes into music. The critiques you give on music, say for example in this video where you basically say that prog would be better if it was poppier and less technical, often don’t have very sufficient points. Like trying to juxtapose prog songwriting to that of Lorde? Like, you’re comparing two completely separate styles of music as a detraction towards the one you don’t like. Or choosing a Lumineers song when trying to find a new indie song to see if you can find any merit, as if The Lumineers are a relevant example of indie in 2021. Even as far back as your video on post hardcore, where you completely left out any mention of At The Drive In, which played an incredibly big role in the progression of post hardcore in the early 2000s (only to find out later that you personally hate ATDI, so it seems right to infer that excluding them out of the history of post hardcore was a result of bias).
You don’t have to like every band, you don’t have to like every genre. But if you’re going to be making content that acts as a one stop shop for music fans and potential fans for various artists, it should at least be a good faith effort. However, far too often your biases poison the well for bands and genres, in a way that will inadvertently turn people off from them. And while I know it’s more profitable and lucrative for you, it can have lasting effects in the community.
I'm with you on this one RJA.
@@ThePunkRockMBA Disgusting attempt as gaslighting right there.
Like it or not Finn and Punk Rock MBA is saving rock music in general. I had lost interest in rock music till I found his channel and I know plenty of people who are getting back into rock bc of the knowledge this man spreads with this channel. He’s got a point. The prog scene can be really negative towards other generes. They feel superior because they use all the technical components they can use in the guitar and often criticize others that don’t go the lengths they go while playing their instrument. The most successful rock songs in the world are literally easy to play. A good song is based in the impact it has in you with are often the lyrics and catchy parts. The prog scene doesn’t often see it that way and that’s what pisses off the rest like dude nobody cares how fast u can play. Now I read a negative comment talking about Jazz or classical music and how this video can be interpreted as criticizing music generes that requiere technicality. First of all Jazz musicians don’t go around feeling superior because they play Jazz nor do classical musicians. The prog scene has created this toxic environment where if u don’t play as fast as I play then u are inferior to me and I don’t want u within my circle. It’s almost like they forgot the fun part of making music.
Awww man! I was hoping for another trap metal and how it’s changing the game type of video 🥱
Progressive music isn’t for everyone and doesn’t have to be catchy. I don’t understand the comparison between prog and pop. Making music more accessible is great for bands that want more exposure but that’s not what everyone is after. I agree that guitar wankery is pretty annoying at times but you can’t discredit music just because it doesn’t appeal to the masses.
This is why I love Opeth. Most of their songs are fairly simple to play and keep the progressive nature without being pretentious. Yeah it's riff city sometimes, but even then, it's the vocals that shine the most and the bassist isn't there just to provide thickness to guitars, but has his own place and indentity in the band with his melodies.
If you count Opeth as a counter to the points made in this video, you are way too deep in it my guy.
@@StephenRahrig Yeah, I'm pretty deep, but I also disagree on a few points in the video, so eh.
Yeah, Opeth is like 90% of the prog I listen to so I have no idea wtf he's even talking about, they have some incredibly catchy songs.
This is excellent. Young people should actually listen to King Crimson because even though they were using a ton of sophisticated ideas it was still about songs with quality melodies like The Great Deceiver, Frame By Frame, Three of A Perfect Pair, etc.
And more modern prog isn't? At the same time I have to ask you have you actually listened through the entire discography of King Crimson? I love the band, but some of it is very experimental and not always just about great melodies.
I get where you're coming from with the sandwich argument, but I think the thing is the longevity of music vs a sandwich. I would rather have 10 hours put into a song that I can listen to forever rather than 10 hours into a sandwich I'll eat in 10 seconds
Idk, I guess I kinda see where you’re coming from, but all of your arguments just sounds like you personally can’t get into prog music, but instead of just accepting that prog might not be for you, you blame the entire genre for not being accessible enough. And I think that’s a thing that makes prog music special, because prog music can be whatever the artist wants it to be, and it doesn’t have to appeal to anyone.
To value songs in how catchy they are is also incredibly narrow minded, because music is so much more than just whether you can sing along to it or not.
Besides, I really am not a big fan of policing what is and isn’t the right way to make music, because there exist no right or wrongs in that question. Create what you want to create exactly how you want to - that’s all that matters.
This was so uncomfortable to watch :D
In regards to the motif here "the songs are terrible, no hooks, just guitar music"... Did you pay attention to the origins of prog rock (King crimson, Yes, Camel, Genesis, Jethro Tull, etc) I know you mentioned some of them at the beginning but if you really listen to their music (Like actually listen to their records) with an open mentality, disconnecting from any prior cultural bias I bet you will find a new form of entertainment, I know that I have personally found the same time of beauty in a 13 minute complex Camel song as I can get from a very hooky Abba song.
I understand that your perspective comes from the background of somebody who's into metal/punk music, which only knows and understands prog from their cultural approximate (animals as leaders, periphery, masturbatory guitar technique dudes, etc) but that's such a different wave of prog rock.
I always try to confront the typical Sex Pistols attitude of "Prog rock sucks" (which is always fuelled by most of the criteria mentioned on this video btw) with, well what do you think about jazz, (not Cecil Taylor) Anything negative to say about Jazz, or classical music? Are those types of genres also unnecessary long, instrument focused, without simple hooks, too complicated, etc?
Why can't we just disconnect this specific genre from a cultural persona which is used to negatively perceive music? When I think about prog, I don't think about a type of person, I think about music, particularly bands that I enjoy listening to. But yeah aren't we all a bit biased in that regard, I'll confess that I can't do the same over genres like metal core or emo xD, those are so intrinsically tied to a stereotype in my view. With that said, just leaving my glass house at your disposal for any rocks you might want to throw at the expense of transparency.
Perhaps I am not too much into modern progressive metal in order to understand where you're coming from. Honestly the only "modern" band that I follow is Opeth, and I would not label them with any of the things you mentioned on this video. Conclusion: Perhaps the title of this video should be more like "The problem with modern progressive metal..."
TL;DR
Generic Djent Dude Makes Long Rant About Shit That's Already Been Said...
@@Null-my7ix What's Djent?
@@danielpicon8012 the name given to the kind of prog metal like periphery, tesseract, animals as leaders which are characterized by a specific but distinct guitar tone that meshuggah are known for creating, along side it's use of polyrhythmic riffs and rhythms which are often accompanied by layered clean guitar parts over it.