Honestly the fact that the devs just went in rivals one "No, we're not nerfing Forsburn, you're all just bad" is still one of the funniest patch notes.
Devs unironically right because fors has never been played much. He's just too hard for everyone to play so we suck at him and as a result we suck facing him since there's like 5 people on this planet that actually use him
The funniest thing I've seen, which makes this even more true, is the fact that I can look at 10 people's Tier-Lists, and half of them think Kragg is the worst character in the game, and the other half say he's the best character in the game.
@@DjGaiden Bro, you put any Rivals character in a Smash game and they just clear the cast. They just have so, so much going on, to the point where even characters like Clairen, who is currently on the mid to lower end of the tier list, suddenly become one of the best characters in the game. The only reason she's not OP in Rivals 2 is because every character is OP in Rivals 2. All I'm saying is stuff like Kragg's pillar would not fly in Smash.
@@atWisely I used to watch most videos at 2x speed, and briefly had a browser extension that let me go up to 3x. It's surprisingly easy to understand. I only stopped because it was messing up my actual speech.
I think the thing with Lox is he is really good at not losing but not very good at winning. he can wall the SHIT out of you and keep you out of his space, but it feels like he just loses any time he approaches. it's unfortunate because it makes a character that has a lot of sauce feel really lame to play against.
@@SadToffee You must be playing scrubs, then. Loxadon's one of the easiest characters to play as, so of course beginners are gonna gravitate towards him.
@@SadToffee this is pretty accurate, I was watching some top player streams and this is about the sentiment they had on Lox sometimes. He has a really cool moveset but in some match ups or situations, he's actually way worse to approach with so he's forced to play lame. If you can parry or just move well it's a way better idea for him to play defensively and lame instead of aggressive zoning against you. The only guy who thinks Lox has a good recovery is Leffen while most other pros tend to think his is very linear and easy to hog or parry.
@@user-hg7ql5ib5f this is the sentiment right now, and obviously it might change as the meta develops but it's definitely how it feels at least right now.
Honestly, the only complain I've heard about Forsburn is that his FStrong and UpStrong never connect with the knife, which is extra weird since it did connect every time in Rivals 1, so people wonder if it's deliberate or or if legit doesn't work
Floorhug/CC really mess with Forsburn's F/Ustrong which contributes for sure. Ustrong I've noticed if you hit with the 'tip' of the cape while it goes up it doesn't move the person enough
Switching from a 2D game engine to a new 3D engine is bound to make some things not work the way they should/used to, and a lot of the time that's simply because importing and adapting assets and code is often more inefficient than doing it from scratch
Prior to Nogh popping off, I felt like I was being gaslit by the community. I never had any idea how anyone thought Lox was a bad character. It was like talking to a brick wall. You have no idea how vindicated I felt.
I think it's also worth people clarifying what level of play they're talking about when they are doing their discourse. It makes it a lot more tempting to argue with someone when there's less context to people's statements. Tbh I even had to read the comments to figure out for sure that this video was focusing on just high-level play. (Maybe that's on me, idk.)
This is also why I like SF6 balance philosophy with very minimal patches and mostly just buffing low tiers. We need time to explore these characters and let the meta develop because right now we know so little about the reality of character strength, matchups, etc.
rivals of aether characters are so strong that loxo being the worse in his game yet winning a major, is just playing one of those mods where everyone is crack but has different ways of being it.
I've been telling people since like May that Loxodont is gonna be this game's RoA1 Kragg in regards to the metagame discourse LOL; preach that good word, my dude. 🙏 Good content, as always!
Even in the case of Melee, a game that has been out for over 200 times longer than Rivals 2 with no patches, players like Amsa, Junebug, and Aklo are making people rethink the tier list. In two years, people will watch the videos of the tournaments taking place now and think about how bad they look
As someone that washed out on Fors because I just wasn't able to get the results I wanted to see with him: Forsburn did not fail me. I failed Forsburn. That character is cracked and I'm not good enough to reach it yet
@@atWisely TBH it was just a cold guess based on the middle part of the video where you are saying how everyone needs to chill and understand that the game is going to be in constant evolution. Anyway if the leak is real everyone is getting nerfs, Wrastor is mostly the same and Orcane is catching strays left and right due to system changes and targeted nerfs; also projectiles would be able to be parried from frame 3 onwards of the parry (WE ARE BACK TO ROA1 BABYY)
Rivals 1 and 2 are games whose rosters have always impressed me, simply because each character feels fun to play. In most fighter games there’s always a character I get that makes me sigh These game is more like “Oh I’m not good as this character but they are FUN.”, I don’t need to excel at every character to enjoy them, which feels rare
Yeah im ass with orcane but seeing what other orcane players do with them and messing around with puddle pressure. Every character is fun as shit which will always make me consider rivals better than smash. So many characters in smash are just torture to play against or just so abysmally terrible, its quality of rivals over the quantity of smash at this point
Same for Smash Ultimate. Not too long ago, a little mac player beat arguably the 2nd/3rd best Sonic player in a tournament in Japan (the most stacked region) to win a whole tournament.
I'm a Forsburn main, and although I will endlessly complain about his inconsistencies (and can't wait to recieve a little TLC in that department), a month in it's hard to see him as anything below an A- tier.
honestly for me the issue isn't the character balance, its the general power level. things can feel SUPER snowbally at times, but everyone can be snowbally, it may be in different ways but everyone can be. i just think the power level in general could do with a bit of a lowering but nerf kragg
I actually disagree here. In a lot of competitive games, balance isn't *only* done at the highest level. There's over a decade of documentation about how they do it in League for example, where they want the game to be fun and balanced at the top level... while also being fun and balanced for beginners and intermediate level players. And to do that, they give the players access to a ton of data APIs, where you can see, from hundreds of thousands of matches, every single character's performance, for every patch, in every individual region, at every elo rank, and in every single match-up. The discourse around the balance of those games is still heated, because of course it's always going to be - but it is also much more informed. People can build more cogent arguments thanks to having access to that amount of data. And this is what the standard is, nowadays - and what it has been for almost a decade. So no amount of "but see, Forsburn is winning tournaments" or "CakeAssault is just better than you" will ever give people a satisfying answer. Not when what League has been doing for 10+ years has become the standard. Right now, this approach is saying that the game is only balanced for the top 0.1% of players... But that means we're okay with telling 99.9% of players they are playing an un-balanced game. Same thing with "you'll see, the game will balance out as we learn more about it" - if the game is going to be balanced in 24 months, then as far as most people are concerned, that means it isn't balanced today. At the end of the day, when people say "lox sucks", they don't mean "nogh won't ever win tournaments with lox", that doesn't matter to most people. What they mean is "I play lox, and I'm not having fun because of some matchups that are lopsided at my level". That's what matters to them. And even if nogh was winning every tournament ever (and I hope he does, I played DK in PM lol), that's not going to change that player's experience. Aether Studios is a small company so I don't know how many resources they can allocate to that. Definitely not as many as League can, that's for sure. But with the approach you have in this video, and the approach I've seen Dan have on social media, it sends new players the message that they're not even going to bother trying to do it. And I don't think that's a message you want to be sending to the masses 😅
Hey! I actually totally agree with you on low/mid level play, I've just thought of that as a different topic. But you're totally right, patches need to address pain points at every level of the game, not just from master rank. It's like how I don't think Ranno is best in the game but I do think it's way easier to do his "good" stuff than everyone else, so he becomes way more frustrating at mid level In my mind that was a different topic than straight up "are they viable?", but they're definitely related
@@atWiselyI really like this take on the issue with balancing for multiple levels. Specifically as Plat Lox where people start to understand more of the game's mechanics and confirms even if we're not good enough to really know what we're doing. Down here Lox can just be such a frustrating character and the lack of nuance is really tough in discussions. For example, pro Lox players will point out that he really doesn't have a great recovery but overcome that and it just makes people say that we're not recovering as well as them, but even they agree it's just pretty linear most of the time. Lox will feel pretty bad to play at the upper midlevels because people know how to DI more and his KB base and growth is actually pretty weak for the frame data of his moves. The Plat Lox won't have the percent ranges for each character where stomp converts to air Tusks, or be as consistent chasing DownB DI. And that's something you can Lab, but it just feels frustrating when the character can need really specific routes to kill when it feels like every other character is mashing like you but their move kills while yours stay a combo starter until 150. Lox has a specific power fantasy as a slow, threatening Heavy that zones you out more methodically than Kragg, but he definitely doesn't feel like a heavy dying off the top earlier than Zetter or struggling to kill in raw neutral at late percent when other chars will on him. Nome of that changes that he's perfectly viable, really cool design wise, and has some really strengths! I don't think it's bad to be the worst character in RoA2, but it would be better if he felt like he had the same fundamental super powers as the rest of the cast.
League's cyclical balance philosophy would be really bad for a game like Rivals. League isn't trying to make the game better every patch, just different and fresh. Melee's history shows the benefit of keeping a game the same for a long period of time. The mastery players can achieve with a static game is fantastic and part of what has made platform fighters great. During its life cycle I am really excited for Rival's balance patches, but I want to see them trying to make the game perfect, not just different.
@@l.n.3372 Marlon, due to inappropriate stuff he did when he was 15. There were some allegations made against him right after he got sponsored by Luminosity but aside from that he denied anything else
@@l.n.3372 The allegations came out after the two coinboxes, precisely in that moment he was competing at LMMM and because of that he had to DQ from winners side top 8
I don't know the details of the leak, but the devs buffing and nerfing stuff doesn't negate anything I said? One of the big points was that the game is going to keep changing, and changing quickly
I think right now tier lists are ranking how easily it is to do the good stuff with a character and not just how good a character is. Lox, Kragg, fleet, Forsburn, Ranno and Clairen may not be the best characters, but they are the easiest to do the good shit with right now. Lox is only bad because he has pretty much hit his ceiling already in terms of punish game.
Early lists are useless. Later lists fall into weird group-think traps for years. And they always, no matter what you tell people, no matter how tight the balance is in modern games, get used as an excuse when poor players aren't getting the results they think they deserve. After 30+ years of this I'm starting to think tier lists might not actually be all that interesting or fun. ...Buff Clairen
Diamond Loxodont here. People roast my character all the time, then wavedash into a fully charged F-Smash. You guys are going to hate yourselves in a year for all the Loxodont trash talk.
Loxodont for me has the same vibe as K-rool in smash in that they are "low tier" if both players are equally matched but if the heavy player is better they become utturly dominating and oppressive due to the tools they have. They are perfect for those who just out neutral the opponent.
Hot take I don’t think Kragg is the strongest in the game I just think he’s the perfect storm of fun easy to pick up and has a lot of depth as a character to keep people playing him Also I think maypole is the actual best character a good maypole wount let you play if you get hit ,like actual potential zero to deaths
ok so people are always thinking about those fantasy matchups like "who would win between brawl meta knight and smash 4 bayo" but what I really want to see is brawl MK vs the most dysfunctional dogshit bottom tier Rivals character you could possibly think of and I think the Rivals character would win Heck you know why Steve is top tier in Ultimate? It's because he's not a Smash Bros character; Dan Fornace possessed Sakurai into designing a Rivals character for Smash and he had the restraint to not straight up put Orcane in
Honestly, Ranno really does belong in the high-tiers. Wrastor NEEDS to line up a shot in the air to KO. Maypul needs to use her smashes twice. Forsburn's smashes are really hard to line up. Orcane needs to use his smashes in the puddle to reliably KO. Ranno suffers from none of these issues, has great comboing, good smashes and can even smash a foe as soon as they pop out of a bubble. Being honest, though. The whole "big and slow = low tier" mentality is getting old, especially since Loxadont has good range, easy smashes, decent comboing and surprisingly good frame data. Yes, him being big is an issue (especially since he's one of the easiest characters for Wrastor to deal with) but I wouldn't say he's worse than Forsburn or Orcane.
The most egregious fallacy of which the human mind is capable is that reality fits into a neat pattern. People speak of tier lists as if there's an _objective_ ranking to be found, a _total_ order of character against character, tacitly assuming a> matchup favour is a _transitive_ relation, and b> players always know not only their own but the _other_ character's toolkit and techniques. The former is totally unfounded, the latter is demonstrably false. What's the tier list of rock-paper-scissors plays? Rock is strong against Scissors which always beats Paper, but Paper has a winning matchup against Rock, so should it be moved above Scissors? And should Rock really be at the top, if there's such a strong counter to it?
I think the most productive and helpful thing for me to do right now is criticize the melee tier list at 6:40 so next time put Mewtwo a little higher thanks
@@atWisely I agree, however you did suggest it was wild that other people don't factor in potential changes in the game and development of the meta. The meta is currently as developed as it will ever be *Currently*. A matchup can with certainty be called 3-1 today before a new piece of tech is discovered that makes it 1-1 for example. It doesn't make todays truths any less true. Liked the video though, obviously you are just pointing out peoples flawed thinking, but a tier list or matchup today can only be factored on information we have today.
I have been suggesting that the appropriate tiers are S+, S, S- for a while now. Also interesting to consider whether a character is top tier due to potential, or due to their potential in a tournament setting specifically, where human performance and flaws reigns. Hard characters (or characters who seem to have a glass jaw), like Wrastor and Maypul, often see less high tournament placements in early meta. Which is why I wonder where all the Ranno players are in top 8.
really great vid! Unfortunately I must inform you that lox is actually the best character in the game and really he doesnt even probably have that many issues really. probably
I cant believe youd put fors and loxodont in the thumbnail they are super bad bottom tier cant wait for December 3rd tbh
Honestly the fact that the devs just went in rivals one "No, we're not nerfing Forsburn, you're all just bad" is still one of the funniest patch notes.
I'm gonna bring it up every video I can
Devs unironically right because fors has never been played much. He's just too hard for everyone to play so we suck at him and as a result we suck facing him since there's like 5 people on this planet that actually use him
LMAO which patch note???
I can say "You're carried by your character," and that's true for **EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER** in this game!
Have you ever tried playing _without_ a character?
@ I main the main menu.
random button mains rise up
sandbert when
The funniest thing I've seen, which makes this even more true, is the fact that I can look at 10 people's Tier-Lists, and half of them think Kragg is the worst character in the game, and the other half say he's the best character in the game.
And yet you see Orcane in most tierlists at "who the fuck are you idk I'll just say you are mid" because nobody plays him Q_Q
rivals characters clear every pm and melee character imo
DK Goat you can’t possibly have this opinion 😭
Fox is sending Zetter to the ether.
@@DjGaiden Bro, you put any Rivals character in a Smash game and they just clear the cast. They just have so, so much going on, to the point where even characters like Clairen, who is currently on the mid to lower end of the tier list, suddenly become one of the best characters in the game. The only reason she's not OP in Rivals 2 is because every character is OP in Rivals 2.
All I'm saying is stuff like Kragg's pillar would not fly in Smash.
@@DjGaiden he shits on fox wym
@@DjGaidenwhat happens when zetter air dodges through foxes shine and then reversals him
@arJunebugSmash I did not consider that aspect. If I take into account how safe the Rivals Cast is in the air/off stage, it really is a wash. Damn.
8:19 this is so true, i hate seeing people making 5 tiers for a game THIS balanced.
HOW DID YOU GET TO 8:19 ALREADY I JUST UPLOADED
@@atWisely ggs go next😴
@@atWisely I used to watch most videos at 2x speed, and briefly had a browser extension that let me go up to 3x. It's surprisingly easy to understand. I only stopped because it was messing up my actual speech.
I think the thing with Lox is he is really good at not losing but not very good at winning. he can wall the SHIT out of you and keep you out of his space, but it feels like he just loses any time he approaches. it's unfortunate because it makes a character that has a lot of sauce feel really lame to play against.
Honestly, you're just not playing him right, tbh.
@@baalfgames5318 yeah nah i've been playing maypul and whooping every lox i've played against for the past 3 days
@@SadToffee You must be playing scrubs, then. Loxadon's one of the easiest characters to play as, so of course beginners are gonna gravitate towards him.
@@SadToffee this is pretty accurate, I was watching some top player streams and this is about the sentiment they had on Lox sometimes. He has a really cool moveset but in some match ups or situations, he's actually way worse to approach with so he's forced to play lame. If you can parry or just move well it's a way better idea for him to play defensively and lame instead of aggressive zoning against you. The only guy who thinks Lox has a good recovery is Leffen while most other pros tend to think his is very linear and easy to hog or parry.
@@user-hg7ql5ib5f this is the sentiment right now, and obviously it might change as the meta develops but it's definitely how it feels at least right now.
Honestly, the only complain I've heard about Forsburn is that his FStrong and UpStrong never connect with the knife, which is extra weird since it did connect every time in Rivals 1, so people wonder if it's deliberate or or if legit doesn't work
Floorhug/CC really mess with Forsburn's F/Ustrong which contributes for sure. Ustrong I've noticed if you hit with the 'tip' of the cape while it goes up it doesn't move the person enough
Switching from a 2D game engine to a new 3D engine is bound to make some things not work the way they should/used to, and a lot of the time that's simply because importing and adapting assets and code is often more inefficient than doing it from scratch
This is just false, it did not connect every time in rivals 1.
Up Strong is the biggest outliar right now, surely they'll fix it at some point
its glitched rn, turn off tap strong to get better combos out of strongs with fors
Prior to Nogh popping off, I felt like I was being gaslit by the community. I never had any idea how anyone thought Lox was a bad character. It was like talking to a brick wall. You have no idea how vindicated I felt.
I think it's also worth people clarifying what level of play they're talking about when they are doing their discourse. It makes it a lot more tempting to argue with someone when there's less context to people's statements. Tbh I even had to read the comments to figure out for sure that this video was focusing on just high-level play. (Maybe that's on me, idk.)
This is also why I like SF6 balance philosophy with very minimal patches and mostly just buffing low tiers. We need time to explore these characters and let the meta develop because right now we know so little about the reality of character strength, matchups, etc.
rivals of aether characters are so strong that loxo being the worse in his game yet winning a major, is just playing one of those mods where everyone is crack but has different ways of being it.
I've been telling people since like May that Loxodont is gonna be this game's RoA1 Kragg in regards to the metagame discourse LOL; preach that good word, my dude. 🙏
Good content, as always!
Even in the case of Melee, a game that has been out for over 200 times longer than Rivals 2 with no patches, players like Amsa, Junebug, and Aklo are making people rethink the tier list. In two years, people will watch the videos of the tournaments taking place now and think about how bad they look
As someone that washed out on Fors because I just wasn't able to get the results I wanted to see with him: Forsburn did not fail me. I failed Forsburn. That character is cracked and I'm not good enough to reach it yet
Locked in for a new Wisely video
Subscribed. I like that you don't discuss everything as "matter of fact". It's refreshing and what I have been looking for.
Wisely doing damage control for the leaked patch already lmaoooo
.... I still don't actually know what the leak details are LOL
I haven't seen it yet, I just know it exists
Everyone needs to chill out
It might be fake, but if it's real, most players like the changes@@atWisely
@@atWisely TBH it was just a cold guess based on the middle part of the video where you are saying how everyone needs to chill and understand that the game is going to be in constant evolution. Anyway if the leak is real everyone is getting nerfs, Wrastor is mostly the same and Orcane is catching strays left and right due to system changes and targeted nerfs; also projectiles would be able to be parried from frame 3 onwards of the parry (WE ARE BACK TO ROA1 BABYY)
@@666blaziken lmao no we do not Maypul and Wrastor (the two best characters) were untouched
Rivals 1 and 2 are games whose rosters have always impressed me, simply because each character feels fun to play.
In most fighter games there’s always a character I get that makes me sigh
These game is more like “Oh I’m not good as this character but they are FUN.”, I don’t need to excel at every character to enjoy them, which feels rare
Yeah im ass with orcane but seeing what other orcane players do with them and messing around with puddle pressure. Every character is fun as shit which will always make me consider rivals better than smash. So many characters in smash are just torture to play against or just so abysmally terrible, its quality of rivals over the quantity of smash at this point
Rivals 2 feels like the most balanced platform fighter I’ve seen since pre-fighters’ pass 2 ultimate (and it’s way balanced than that)
Same for Smash Ultimate.
Not too long ago, a little mac player beat arguably the 2nd/3rd best Sonic player in a tournament in Japan (the most stacked region) to win a whole tournament.
I'm a Forsburn main, and although I will endlessly complain about his inconsistencies (and can't wait to recieve a little TLC in that department), a month in it's hard to see him as anything below an A- tier.
Anyone who says they’re losing because of their character is lying to themselves
honestly for me the issue isn't the character balance, its the general power level. things can feel SUPER snowbally at times, but everyone can be snowbally, it may be in different ways but everyone can be. i just think the power level in general could do with a bit of a lowering
but nerf kragg
Crazy how wisely is smart, experienced, funny, and handsome all at the same time
I actually disagree here. In a lot of competitive games, balance isn't *only* done at the highest level. There's over a decade of documentation about how they do it in League for example, where they want the game to be fun and balanced at the top level... while also being fun and balanced for beginners and intermediate level players.
And to do that, they give the players access to a ton of data APIs, where you can see, from hundreds of thousands of matches, every single character's performance, for every patch, in every individual region, at every elo rank, and in every single match-up.
The discourse around the balance of those games is still heated, because of course it's always going to be - but it is also much more informed. People can build more cogent arguments thanks to having access to that amount of data. And this is what the standard is, nowadays - and what it has been for almost a decade.
So no amount of "but see, Forsburn is winning tournaments" or "CakeAssault is just better than you" will ever give people a satisfying answer. Not when what League has been doing for 10+ years has become the standard.
Right now, this approach is saying that the game is only balanced for the top 0.1% of players... But that means we're okay with telling 99.9% of players they are playing an un-balanced game. Same thing with "you'll see, the game will balance out as we learn more about it" - if the game is going to be balanced in 24 months, then as far as most people are concerned, that means it isn't balanced today.
At the end of the day, when people say "lox sucks", they don't mean "nogh won't ever win tournaments with lox", that doesn't matter to most people. What they mean is "I play lox, and I'm not having fun because of some matchups that are lopsided at my level". That's what matters to them. And even if nogh was winning every tournament ever (and I hope he does, I played DK in PM lol), that's not going to change that player's experience.
Aether Studios is a small company so I don't know how many resources they can allocate to that. Definitely not as many as League can, that's for sure. But with the approach you have in this video, and the approach I've seen Dan have on social media, it sends new players the message that they're not even going to bother trying to do it. And I don't think that's a message you want to be sending to the masses 😅
Hey! I actually totally agree with you on low/mid level play, I've just thought of that as a different topic. But you're totally right, patches need to address pain points at every level of the game, not just from master rank. It's like how I don't think Ranno is best in the game but I do think it's way easier to do his "good" stuff than everyone else, so he becomes way more frustrating at mid level
In my mind that was a different topic than straight up "are they viable?", but they're definitely related
@@atWiselyI really like this take on the issue with balancing for multiple levels. Specifically as Plat Lox where people start to understand more of the game's mechanics and confirms even if we're not good enough to really know what we're doing. Down here Lox can just be such a frustrating character and the lack of nuance is really tough in discussions.
For example, pro Lox players will point out that he really doesn't have a great recovery but overcome that and it just makes people say that we're not recovering as well as them, but even they agree it's just pretty linear most of the time.
Lox will feel pretty bad to play at the upper midlevels because people know how to DI more and his KB base and growth is actually pretty weak for the frame data of his moves. The Plat Lox won't have the percent ranges for each character where stomp converts to air Tusks, or be as consistent chasing DownB DI. And that's something you can Lab, but it just feels frustrating when the character can need really specific routes to kill when it feels like every other character is mashing like you but their move kills while yours stay a combo starter until 150.
Lox has a specific power fantasy as a slow, threatening Heavy that zones you out more methodically than Kragg, but he definitely doesn't feel like a heavy dying off the top earlier than Zetter or struggling to kill in raw neutral at late percent when other chars will on him.
Nome of that changes that he's perfectly viable, really cool design wise, and has some really strengths! I don't think it's bad to be the worst character in RoA2, but it would be better if he felt like he had the same fundamental super powers as the rest of the cast.
League's cyclical balance philosophy would be really bad for a game like Rivals. League isn't trying to make the game better every patch, just different and fresh.
Melee's history shows the benefit of keeping a game the same for a long period of time. The mastery players can achieve with a static game is fantastic and part of what has made platform fighters great.
During its life cycle I am really excited for Rival's balance patches, but I want to see them trying to make the game perfect, not just different.
I wanna see Wrastor in tournaments but he seems very under used in the player base.
He does have the smallest user base and the best Wrastor is banned for two months so yeah we may have to wait for Wrastor results
@Pal42_
Wait what? Who is banned and for what reason??
@@l.n.3372 Marlon, due to inappropriate stuff he did when he was 15. There were some allegations made against him right after he got sponsored by Luminosity but aside from that he denied anything else
@Pal42_
The dude who won 2 Rivals Coinbox??
Oh jeez. I enjoyed watching him. If he was banned, why was he allowed to enter Coinbox?
@@l.n.3372 The allegations came out after the two coinboxes, precisely in that moment he was competing at LMMM and because of that he had to DQ from winners side top 8
If the leaked patch notes are real then it doesn’t seem like the devs feel the same about the game’s balance
I don't know the details of the leak, but the devs buffing and nerfing stuff doesn't negate anything I said? One of the big points was that the game is going to keep changing, and changing quickly
@@atWisely mostly changes aimed at interactivity, big Ranno Fleet and Orcane nerfs, Kragg safety nerfs.
@@atWiselythe devs gutted certain characters (mostly bad ones) while leaving the top tiers untouched
@@ellie8272 RoA1 antics I'm afraid (mainly Wrastor and Maypul never having significant nerfs, while Orcane catches strays every other patch xd).
@petrikillos Why is Dan so hesitant to nerf them???
Anybody remember when Prof Pro said something along the lines of "PM Snake has 28 losing matchups"?
I think right now tier lists are ranking how easily it is to do the good stuff with a character and not just how good a character is. Lox, Kragg, fleet, Forsburn, Ranno and Clairen may not be the best characters, but they are the easiest to do the good shit with right now. Lox is only bad because he has pretty much hit his ceiling already in terms of punish game.
the irrelephant is fine where he is i promise you do not want that guy to be a "high tier"
Nogh also won a tournament with Lox recently.
That is an absolutely spectacular beard
Early lists are useless. Later lists fall into weird group-think traps for years. And they always, no matter what you tell people, no matter how tight the balance is in modern games, get used as an excuse when poor players aren't getting the results they think they deserve. After 30+ years of this I'm starting to think tier lists might not actually be all that interesting or fun.
...Buff Clairen
Diamond Loxodont here. People roast my character all the time, then wavedash into a fully charged F-Smash.
You guys are going to hate yourselves in a year for all the Loxodont trash talk.
Real
Loxodont for me has the same vibe as K-rool in smash in that they are "low tier" if both players are equally matched but if the heavy player is better they become utturly dominating and oppressive due to the tools they have. They are perfect for those who just out neutral the opponent.
If everyone is broken. No one is.
New Wisely just dropped!
Hot take I don’t think Kragg is the strongest in the game I just think he’s the perfect storm of fun easy to pick up and has a lot of depth as a character to keep people playing him
Also I think maypole is the actual best character a good maypole wount let you play if you get hit ,like actual potential zero to deaths
ok so people are always thinking about those fantasy matchups like "who would win between brawl meta knight and smash 4 bayo" but what I really want to see is brawl MK vs the most dysfunctional dogshit bottom tier Rivals character you could possibly think of and I think the Rivals character would win
Heck you know why Steve is top tier in Ultimate? It's because he's not a Smash Bros character; Dan Fornace possessed Sakurai into designing a Rivals character for Smash and he had the restraint to not straight up put Orcane in
Honestly, Ranno really does belong in the high-tiers. Wrastor NEEDS to line up a shot in the air to KO. Maypul needs to use her smashes twice. Forsburn's smashes are really hard to line up. Orcane needs to use his smashes in the puddle to reliably KO. Ranno suffers from none of these issues, has great comboing, good smashes and can even smash a foe as soon as they pop out of a bubble.
Being honest, though. The whole "big and slow = low tier" mentality is getting old, especially since Loxadont has good range, easy smashes, decent comboing and surprisingly good frame data. Yes, him being big is an issue (especially since he's one of the easiest characters for Wrastor to deal with) but I wouldn't say he's worse than Forsburn or Orcane.
The most egregious fallacy of which the human mind is capable is that reality fits into a neat pattern. People speak of tier lists as if there's an _objective_ ranking to be found, a _total_ order of character against character, tacitly assuming a> matchup favour is a _transitive_ relation, and b> players always know not only their own but the _other_ character's toolkit and techniques. The former is totally unfounded, the latter is demonstrably false.
What's the tier list of rock-paper-scissors plays? Rock is strong against Scissors which always beats Paper, but Paper has a winning matchup against Rock, so should it be moved above Scissors? And should Rock really be at the top, if there's such a strong counter to it?
yeah personally i think fors is pretty good and wrastor is not as good as people say he is.
I think the most productive and helpful thing for me to do right now is criticize the melee tier list at 6:40 so next time put Mewtwo a little higher thanks
it's hungrybox's go tell him
Updates tomorrow, do not equal the game now. You cant consider the future in a tier list.
It's a good thing that's not what I did then
@@atWisely I agree, however you did suggest it was wild that other people don't factor in potential changes in the game and development of the meta. The meta is currently as developed as it will ever be *Currently*. A matchup can with certainty be called 3-1 today before a new piece of tech is discovered that makes it 1-1 for example. It doesn't make todays truths any less true. Liked the video though, obviously you are just pointing out peoples flawed thinking, but a tier list or matchup today can only be factored on information we have today.
RAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
I have been suggesting that the appropriate tiers are S+, S, S- for a while now.
Also interesting to consider whether a character is top tier due to potential, or due to their potential in a tournament setting specifically, where human performance and flaws reigns. Hard characters (or characters who seem to have a glass jaw), like Wrastor and Maypul, often see less high tournament placements in early meta.
Which is why I wonder where all the Ranno players are in top 8.
really great vid! Unfortunately I must inform you that lox is actually the best character in the game and really he doesnt even probably have that many issues really. probably
they should nerf him again tbh
Look mom im famous
Buff the PHANT!
nah, nerf Kragg
4:52 is 5 a lot in top 48? There are 10 characters, so 5/48 is almost exactly 10%, which would be average.
It's not a lot, but being average (instead of way under represented) is kinda the point there
Maypul still needs nerfs tho
I think that this game is balanced but for some reason never feels like it’s balanced.
My boy looking GOOD in the black 🔥🔥
Gotta get a chain my bro you’ll be clean
Already have one, just wasn't wearing it that day
@@atWisely GOOD
Wisely taking money from Big Aether. Truly the worst timeline 😢
This is true
Dude nice beard.
Lol, no.
Just realized @derkdurski evolves into Wisely holy
LOL
my beard is longer what does this mean for us