Came here from Rick Beato’s channel. Ted, Thank You for sharing your studies. Really gives me a new way of thinking about how and why music has evolved. I have decided to write a ten minute song. ❤️
I've been thinking about this all day... and the ten minute song thing doesn't make sense. He said ten minutes of the same beat will put you in a trance, so you need a song at least 11 minutes to achieve 1 minute of a trance like state, and it has to have no change in the beat or timing. So what does this classify in pop music? Ambient music? Brian Eno Discreet Music?
Wanna hear a funny story about music shame - or lack thereof? My former sister-in law (for a while a VERY well-known celebrity) liked to cultivate a sophisticated image even though she'd grown up poor and down-home. Her husband, a true New York sophisticate, was fond of country and bluegrass music - and didn't care what anyone else thought about it - or him. So she played opera recordings at home and didn't want to him to play what he liked - which was in fact the music she grew up with. One day, with a particularly over-wrought aria (from Lakme, as I recall) blasting on their stereo, she turned to her husband with tears in her eyes and said "I really don't know why this music makes me cry - but I can't help it." He replied - "I know - it's the lack of banjos." Insert rim shot here...
I'm not ashamed to say that Eyes Without a Face by Billy Idol nearly brings me to tears for some reason. Maybe cuz I'm subliminally reminded that my teenage years are irretrievable. But that song is really amazing.
This makes me think of the divide between elite or “intellectual” music, and “popular” music. Even within classical I see people denigrating things for being too popular-sounding, not just in terms of simplicity (like a Strauss waltz, which was essentially pop) but in terms of emotion. Tchaikovsky being exhibit A. Definitely rooted in the same prejudices.
I loved Karen Carpenter's voice and music. It was beautifully recorded and produced, but I would never admit that to my friends at the time it was released.
Just discovered the carpenters. Amazing sophisticated pop songs .. the brother arrangements are ornate and awesome. Watched some live clips her drumming was legit too. They had a hit later on with a video with aliens and spaceships ... amazing! Totally get why is wasn’t cool to like back in the day...This far after the fact though, I hope more people hear them. I think they are easy to like now without embarrassment. I think there is more musical depth there than most people would guess
@@ericmckayrq She was well regarded as a drummer by her peers. "Her drumming has been praised by fellow musicians Hal Blaine, Cubby O'Brien and Buddy Rich] and by Modern Drummer magazine." The Carpenters were very talented song writers and musicians, but it was the timber of Karen's iconic voice that brought it all together. You are correct. More people should know and listen to their music. I happy to hear that you were able to find your way to it.
We were quite broad minded at my school in the early 70s and played The Carpenters alongside Sabbath, Led Zep, Jimi Hendrix, Cream etc. I think we wanted to get away from the bigotry and arrogance of opinion that our parents and grandparents had…
Glad I scrolled down a ways before posting what would have been an almost exact copy of your comment. Like everyone else who came of age in the 70s I loved the Beatles, Led Zeppelin, the Doobie Brothers, et al. But I used to play my sister's Carpenters albums LOUD, and sing along with with them. I would NEVER admit I was a Carpenters fan. Other shameful pleasures included The Association and Bread.
Oooh, good one! Most music on the radio, through the decades, has been crap, and I've generally hated it, but one thing I've learned to appreciate is the beautifully crafted pop song. I probably wouldn't have wanted to be seen singing along with Abba at some point in my life but a few artists obviously are able to produce music that is both popular and good.
@@61hink There's a video here on RUclips of Steve Vai's band doing a killer excerpt from a Benny Andersson & Björn Ulvaeus composition called, _Bangkok,_ from the musical, _One Night in Bangkok,_ which they worked with Tim Rice on... Besides being able to craft a perfect pop song..., they actually had some pretty impressive compositional chops for fairly progressive and intricate theatrical and cinematic productions...
Here from Rick Beato's video, didn't know you also had an amazing channel! Love this historical, psychological, and most importantly human analysis of music!
Hi Ted, enjoyed your perspective about today's music industry and how it relates to musicians from Rick Beato's interview on his channel. (this will probably be long, so apologies ahead of time) In my 40's I started to grow weary of anything on the radio, none of it connected to me, so much so, I found myself reverting to music I enjoyed in my youth. Along w/ this, I had gone decades w/o being creative, as trying to turn the creativity I enjoyed, my artistic instincts, 'died' when I tried to turn my artistic passion into a 'job' after high school' Then I discovered an artist on a show I never watched, American Idol and found my passion to 'create' ignited again, in this gal, I'd found my muse. Haley Reinhart is an old school artist, was raised on Rock (especially the Beatles) can sing any genre, but she excels in Jazz, Blues and Rock. She knew that coming off a reality show, she would have to prove herself as many in the industry looked down on reality show contestants as not having put in the work, not 'earning' their way, taking a short cut. After a disastrous period w/ her first label, Interscope, she decided to forego any help from the industry and has since worked her way the last ten years as an independent artist w/ some success (with her Elvis cover of "Can't Help Falling in Love" and w/ the RUclips collective "Postmodern Jukebox"), but it's a long road for her fans who long for recognition. This is why I started my channel, as an independent artist, Haley doesn't have access to the limitless promotion of Music Industry megalith, so I've gone to many of her shows and w/ the help of a core group of fans, we have done our best to do a grassroots of promoting her. To the point: Some of Haley's long time fans have started to wonder if it was a mistake for Haley to forego signing w/ a label even if the original music Haley writes isn't music you'd hear on the airwaves of today, although she might do better in earlier decades like in the '70's. But Haley is convinced she wants to earn her stripes on her own merit, and understands the road is long. Her main recognition is Jazz but her own music is derived from decades past, she's creating her own musical space. In your interview w/ Rick, some of the things you spoke of, reenforced Haley's notion of not relying on the music making machine that might take away from her creativity, I wish/hope more of Haley's fans see the interview to maybe understand why doing it the 'normal' way through the industry, doesn't necessarily get you where you want, earn you what you think, all while losing your rights and creative freedom. You said you've listened to hundreds of songs, I'd like to introduce you to a couple Haley's four albums (3 of the 4 have original songs written by Haley), she's old school and is an incredible vocalist. When you have the time, my two favorite of Haley's original albums are "Better" (2nd album) and her most recent album (2019) "Lo-Fi Soul". From your interview talking about what musicians face nowadays, I hope you can enjoy music from a talented artist that doesn't get much recognition, but her heart and love of music are in the right place, Thanks for reading and apologies for the length, cheers. Tusk
The Ancient Greeks related each mode to a specific mood and style, for instance the Dorian was related to what Mr. Gioia calls "masculine" music etc. Thanks for your intelligent and informative representation of problems related to music!
I’m sort of lucky in that I have never given a toss what other people thought about the music I loved. Jazz, Prog, Soul. Blues, Experimental- if it resonates and moves me in some way I dig it.
Same for me, but I think this is an outsider mindset. I enjoy having eclectic musical tastes. Some people want this eclecticism and some people want to be inside the mainstream.
BOOM. And there it is. TAKE HEED PEOPLE... love what you love enjoy what you enjoy and as long as yr not bothering anyone else with whatever it is............. F' em if they don't approve. & Rock On.
Musical guilty pleasures are a cultural phenomena and it's directly related to the Ego: We feel shame about other people knowing we like certain kinds of music, because we care about how they perceive us. We think if people know we like certain kinds of music, they will think less of us. We want people to think we're great. That's the Ego. But the same is true with other things, like movies, books, sexual kinks, etc. It's not limited to music. And again, even though culture plays a large role in it (since culture dictates what kinds of music are considered ok to like and what kinds are not), the core of the problem is our ego, and that's where it must be attacked. Once we no longer care what people think of us, the shame dissipates away.
Stange. Back in the early seventies, many of my friends got on my case about liking Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin, and such. My favorites included Donovan , Neil Young, CSN, and Simon and Garfunkel. I was puzzled that others wondered how I could like proto metal, but I did and thought they were missing out on great music. Later in life, I still listened to music from the late sixties and early seventies mostly, but added groups like Tom Petty, AC/DC, and Metallica whose roots were still from that period. I was criticized for being stuck in the past. However, I know what I like and never feel ashamed of my taste in music. Sheryl Crow, Alanis Morissette, and Nirvana all struck cords with me. Being ashamed of your taste in music is a bit like being ashamed of a part of yourself. I have really enjoyed listening to you, especially your talk with Rick Beato. Thank you.
Good comment. You know, there was something wrong with young person in the 70s who openly criticized Toni iommie's guitar. I was too young at that time. But I remember older guys against different music. Even then, i could tell they didn't know what the fuck they were talkin about.
ElrohirGuitar - I was getting into music the same time as you then, but what I was mainly into was the guitar. So I liked Deep Purple, but I also liked Simon and Garfunkel, Cat Stevens and Yes, Allan Holdsworth and Julian Bream. Guitar linked them all together, and I was always surprised when other people didn't have as broad a taste as I did - because I didn't think it was broad at all!
I'm 64, and got heavily into music in the early 70s. I listened to all the usual suspects back then, but that included bands or artists ranging from Hendrix to the Allman Brothers, Stevie Wonder, Black Sabbath, Mahavishnu Orchestra, etc. Along the way, I picked up on punk, post-punk, free jazz, hip-hop, noise, and more. I never wanted to be stuck in one place. There's a whole world of music out there. Enjoy it all, if you can. If you can't, then love what you love and make no apologies for it.
Same. For me, I learned that from my father who was into the music from his generation and mine, often introducing me to music from my generation. I was born in 1958, dad in 1925.
I am thinking of 2 very traditional and very masculine men in my family - My war hero Grandfather who simply adored Karen Carpenter - any my big, gruff, conservative Father-in-law who was infatuated with the New Age music of Enya - to their credit, neither one of them was ashamed about these musical connections - quite the contrary, they were very happy and open about it - but looking back at the older pop music of their generation, it amazes me how much of it was soaked, drenched, and marinated in luxurious and dreamy romanticism - how could these men from that era not have a soft side with such beautiful pop music from the 30's, 40's and 50's ?
I am 41 year old, a male. I like Enya and Yanni... not ashamed of it at all because I realize how great their music is actually and I am able to understand that people would make fun of such music because of all wrong reasons. That does not mean that I won't enjoy sometimes to listen to Tom Waits (I actually like him quite a lot, especially more agressive and experimental stuff), Deep Purple, Leonard Cohen or some repetitive blues folk song by Bob Dylan. I still like Yanni because his music is creative, complex, innovative, unique etc. I like Enya because she may be simple but has a knack for melodies and interesting harmonies and all those multilayered vocals are simply her sound that she created. She is truly unique. I also love Vangelis and especially Ennio Morricone. I love Elton John and Billy Joel too. I also love ABBA. Brandi Carlile, Mark Knopfler, Chris Rea too. I also like later stuff by The Beatles... they were truly creative and helped music push forward. Sure, there is some bland, sterile, boring and really not creative new age music out there, but there are also some brilliant composers out there who are disregarded simply because they're not 'cool' enugh.
I've always owned my taste in music, even if it can be cheesy. Plenty of snark and criticism came my way, and i was never remotely deterred from being open about what i like. So this topic interests me not because of my direct experience, but that I've always wondered why other people are so critical of others' tastes.
These critics are just virtue signaling. Ignore them as I do. Music is full of grand exponents who crossed genres effortlessly. Andre Previn, as well as being a top-drawer orchestra conductor, was a really good Jazz Pianist and friend of Oscar Peterson. He also took an interest in Gritty Northern Brass bands.
@@jlcougilljr True. In the latter part of the 70s, power ballads were starting to take hold of the charts and paved the way for the next decade. Here are a few I remember with top Billboard chart positions. Lady - Styx (1975) #6 Dream On - Aerosmith (1976) #6 Love Hurts - Nazareth (1976) #8 We Are The Champions - Queen (1978) #4 By the time grunge took over the 90s, the power ballad took a dive.
@@D_Tuned We are the Champions is an interesting in that it isn't really a love ballad & is still often used in a masculine sporting context...I think Freddie took inspiration from My Way which is also quite butch despite being a ballad...
@@D_Tuned People and music living in the past because the vast majority of the current state of music artist have no talent. The top music charts are a sad joke. That leaves me discovering artists elsewhere. ruclips.net/video/XTClBCoyPJM/видео.html
Interesting take on this. In my view, to the extent one feels shame about listening to certain music, it’s because one doesn’t want to admit having any connection to the audience that record companies and executives market that music to. To that end, jazz fans shouldn’t admit to liking country music, hip hop fans shouldn’t admit to liking classical music, and so on. What’s interesting is when you consider the interests of the musicians *themselves* , which often usurp these categories and this shame. Charlie Parker openly enjoyed country music. Louis Armstrong loved Guy Lombardo. This was music these musicians weren’t *supposed* to like, yet they did. And I think it’s because Plato was half correct: there are two types of music, but one is interesting, the other, boring. And the music alone should dictate that, not one’s desire to fit in with a packaged audience.
I will be here to admit to liking both hip hop and classical music. Honestly kinda an interesting experience when I practice classical music, listen to it on my way to hip hop dance classes, then unwind with more classical music. Haven’t met anyone else who shares these tastes in music, I also like KHipHop + Jpop which makes it more complicated.
@@TheAkumaChan I’m equally at home listening to Bach, Doc (Watson), or Pops (Louis Armstrong). My own interests tend towards instrumental music, but we all have our own proclivities. Not everyone should have to like everything. I have a sibling who likes classical and late 80s rap. He grew up with both. In my opinion, most Americans tend to listen to an audience, not to music. That’s a shame, because it says more about our desire to belong to a group than anything.
I think that's a good take. In my opinion it is because music is part of our identity. We identify with certain type of music and culture and social circle that kind of music represents. We are proud of the music that represents part of what we want to be seen as. For example, a person who wants to present themselves as high class, cultured and posh, and mingle with this kinds of people, will be very proud to announce they listen to classical music to all their friends (and let's assume he/she actualy realy likes classical music - they aren't "faking"). They will be less keen to admit they like certain hip hop song, even if they secretly do and listen to it in their car. Similarly, if you have a metalhead, who secretly likes a kpop song (extreme example), they would be very unlikely to admit to their friends for similar reason - as they would be afraid how other would see them - they would be afraid others would see them "fake" or "shallow" or "comercial", and not "true" metalhead.
@@Member_zero I think the word you're looking for is "poser". ;-) That, of course, is what happened to the "hair bands" of the '80s, to the extent that the sort of real songwriting talent that might have fixed that scene was scared away from it. Something similar happened to the "AOR" of the late '70s--all the songwriting talent went into "new wave".
In my experience, modern shame of music comes from a given guilty pleasure artist or genre not being socially acceptable in your circle. A classic example would be someone running with the heavy metal crowd secretly listening to some of the European pop-folk genres that have been ridiculed for being low-grade overall. I've seen people being discovered and ridiculed for that IRL.
I agree. There is something about humans where deep down, we feel a need to belong to a group. We're wired that way, it's how we've survived for millenia. Groups have rules, and all it takes is one person to say "disco sucks" or whatever and an unwritten rule is made. Most people don't want to challenge leaders/anyone in authority, or the status quo. Even those who think they are being "cool", are doing so often because of marketing or rebellion.
Once I started admitting that I love to listen to and play smooth jazz, I realized I didn't care what anyone thought. I sounds amazing to me and makes me happy, so I'm going to keep doing it. Also I play banjo for a living so that pretty much sums up my music tastes lol.
I was sound man for a smooth Jazz band... Avalon Jazz Trio... one of my gigs was Banjo Brunch during Jazz festival Week. The best professional banjo players I know never play for longer than 15 seconds before they start another joke. Most of their jokes are about banjos, banjo players and the banjos affinity for garbage cans and dumpsters and the sounds they make together. Banjo truly is an art and the true artist never reallly play the banjo but make jokes about it. Like Steve Martin... but actually funny... in a sad way..
Music is often associated with Identity. Some of us define who we are in relation to the music we like and the music we say (publicly) we don't like. Young people, especially, are often tribal about their music tastes. Membership of youth subcultural groups are often connected to particular genres of music and not to other genres of music. Young people think: if I like Band A, then I shouldn't like Band B. I think as we get older, and hopefully less anxious about identity, these tribal attitudes become less prevalent and we allow ourselves to enjoy a wider range of music genres.
Shame is primary conected to status, and that is likely the atavistic basis of the feeling. And it rings true to me, that my guillty pleasures is hid due to percieved risk of status loss. So i believe this came before Plato and the rest. And they merely rationalized. However I think you have a point, and a refreshing and useful take on this. Actually I am blown away, by your take. Thank you sir, From a new subscriber!
I’ve been coming to terms with liking Coldplay. Playing it on the piano has been involving. But I do get shamed for it by many people I mention it to. But I’ve come out 😜
I don't think I've ever been ashamed of any music that interests or excites me. I've mostly always played traditional jazz & blues over a span of some 35 - 40 yrs., but if find something interesting in disco & polka, then I'm just as driven to understand and explore it; open to express, incorporate and share it in my own music.
At school I was not a popular kid and every time I said i liked something some other kid would say it was rubbish, so I never felt comfortable about talking about liking a particular band etc (though I liked pet shop boys and REM amongst others). Got out of that societal prison when I left school, one of the first albums I bought was Afro Cuban All Stars without actually knowing anything about the music (had no idea what it would sound like, just thought the guys on the album art looked cool), I loved that album and still do. Also went through a massive Kate Bush phase, very interesting music and songs. If i like music I just like it, no apology.
The way tou move your hands is rather funnt (to me at least), but please don’t stop doing that. It’s part of tour brand. Your videos are intelligent, short (thanks for that!) and very informative. Thank you. Subscribed.
Please don't take the following criticism as hate. I love your work, and I consistently find it insightful and thought-provoking--even when I sometimes disagree with it. I don't think feelings of shame with respect to musical taste in the modern era are in any way related to the historical prejudices you describe. How many universally beloved songs or pieces of music since the early 1800's express forms of love and emotion (authentically or otherwise)? A lot, definitely, and most, arguably, since the era of popular music in the 20th century. Instead I think these feelings of shame tend to surround music that expresses a kind of sappiness, which I would argue is related to things like fakeness, sentimentality (in the negative sense of that word), commercialism, immaturity, and superficiality. It's common for us to label mass-market-type pop songs as guilty pleasures, while we see other, much more serious works (including serious pop songs) as respectable--even when they outwardly express very similar things. To me this is an important distinction. I won't advocate for greater shame per se, but fakeness, sentimentality, commercialism, immaturity, and superficiality really are problematic. And an ethic that discourages those things is not something I would want to eschew--especially in today's cultural landscape--in the name of echoing a pro-"vulnerability" discourse that's trending.
I started watching a video with him on Mike Beato's channel and it didn't take me to dismiss (at least in my mind) a lot of what he was asserting. When I was young, of course nothing existed but rock, and I was a card carrying member of the disco sucks crowd. Thankfully my taste has matured to appreciate the talent required to create any type of quality music. The Bee Gees were asked to write songs for Saturday Night Fever and did it in single weekend. Now I think those are songs are great.
I think Ted is correct. You need to dig deeper into how you define fakeness, and sappiness (those seem like personal qualifiers). I think being ashamed of your music comes from vulnerability. I'm not really sure where this connection to pop music comes from ( personal experience maybe?) Nobody I know is ashamed to be an Ed Sheeran or Coldplay fan, . However music that means a lot to you(like an emotional connection) will make you vulnerable to share with others, you worry that something you hold so dear can be rejected or mocked by someone. Pop artists have incredibly strong social media presence, follower counts. Ther are millions of people who are openly declaring their liking to pop musicians, probably more than almost any other public figure. I think people get labeled as lame, or have poor "taste" by others for listening to pop music, but generally speaking a vast majority of the population isn't ashamed of listening to pop music.
I’m a classically trained violinist. And I listened and still listen to classical music. High school college today. My friends listen to it while we were in our cars. Rap, heavy metal, pop…all took backseat to my classical. And they all loved it.
Ted...thanks for this talk and the historical context from which it has evolved. I love all kinds of music and I am not ashamed at all to listen to any genre or type of music (whether it's vulnerable or female-oriented music or what have you). Music, as an expressive art form and one that we are innately born with (starting with an appreciation for rhythm which must harken back to our earliest experiences in the womb and being subject to our mothers' heart beat) and one that helps us transcend time and space, is shared by all cultures. What I find shameful (at least here in the US) is the devolution of music making (at least the crap that is served to us by the big media publishers) to a formulaic, bubble gum nonsense that is simply groove based but that is devoid of harmonic richness and complexity. It is music that is dumbed down and sells the audience short. I couldn't tell you who the top music artists are today (or if I have heard their names I couldn't tell you what their songs are) because pop music today feels very safe, sanitized, formulaic, and uninteresting to me. If I were listening to and craving that stuff, I guess I would be ashamed to admit it.
Thanks for this Ted.....However, you forgot about CONFUSCIOUS and his theories about music and how it reflected the consciousness of a society, its culture and level of education or lack thereof.
I have been a musician for 45 years and no matter my level of experience, because of my lack of success, I am held in low regard by people around me who have been more fortunate than I . I only do it because it is all I ever wanted to do, The more expressive I become, the less it matters to others. I feel shame because as much as I can do , It only will ever be valuable to me.
Keep going my friend. I am in exactly the same boat. I cannot even read music, but I can hear harmony and just about get my head around Rythm. Music is a learning curve however accomplished you are.
An excellent introduction to a very interesting subject, one that really demands more than six minutes to fully parse. Much of the very best music combines the masculine/feminine, Apollonian/Dionysian, etc. which is why the second movement of Beethoven's 7th Symphony can simultaneously thrill our intellect while moving us to tears. I'm grateful that I have no guilty pleasures in music ... it's all pure pleasure, no guilt. As Duke Ellington said, there are two kinds of music: good and bad, and I like the good kind no matter the flavor.
Got here from the Rick Beato channel as well. I've enjoyed your thoughts on music very much. I also tend to take Aristotle and Plato seriously when they spoke about the moral influences of music.
Personally, I tend to keep a lot of my favorite music to myself because I know the person or people around me are not moved by it. That doesn't mean I don't give it a shot to be open about my play list but after experiencing some reactions, that's when I know how to "DJ" when other people are around. For example, I know I can listen to a wide variety of music genres with my wife (one of the reasons I married her) but my little sister will always start complaining if I turn from the hip hop channel. Also my favorite music is personal to me with an emotional bond and I can't stand any childish reactions while I'm listening to my favorite music. Perhaps some of the shame is really worrying about what others think but not really you being ashamed, just reading the room like politics. On the other hand I keep in mind that it's important to share your personal music even if at the time someone don't like it. They may grow to appreciate being exposed to something outside their comfort zone later on. The same way I hated my parent's music as a child and now I hunt that music down. And yeah, misogyny is real.
Ted, your observation is 110% right on and the history back to Plato is just amazing-and needed! granted- this subject effects all music but will only be understood by the hard core and avid music lovers. a funny but REAL example of this goes back to our highschool days and i'm sure a lot of us clearly remember. the hard rock or metal lovers(groups) usually put down and shamed the pop or classical music lovers(groups) and visa versa, or the Jazz or R&B lovers(group) put down and shamed the country lovers(groups) and visa versa. what you didn't mention that should be said is that with most things in our society that is breed into us and also goes back in history to Plato and before is that it's all very territorial and tribal as well in where groups(in this case music lovers of certain genres) would and do put down and shame other groups and society(and pier pressure)has formed to the point that you are almost forced to pick a group(or pick a side) which is very much programmed in our dna in that territorial and tribal aspect as the group has to survive. sadly, this is all more previlent today than in any time,but not so much in relationship to music but as it is to politics,etc. in which all should be shamed for that that go down that destructive path and to the point today that simple communication doesn't even seem to work. at the end of the day love and listen to the music you love, and the older i get the less i have gave a shit what others think of the music and genres i love. thanks for the content Ted, this needed to be made and put out there.
I had guilty pleasures when I was younger, and rejected entire genres of music because it wasn't cool...but now I allow myself to like what I like guilt free!
This vid is obviously geared towards the younger listeners. Once you reach a certain age (I am 50+), generally you couldn't care less about what anyone thinks about your choices in life. I'm a jazz fan (and a black man), and though I'm not a fan of (most) country music, I do enjoy; The Carpenters, The Police, Hall and Oats, The Captain and Tennile, Marilyn Mccoo, The Bee Gees, The Beatles, Diana Ross, The Doobies, The Eagles, Ambrosia, Toto, early rap/techno, and many, many other artists/music forms that many might be embarrassed to admit to.
I wouldn't say I'm ashamed of music I like, but I might joke that I am ashamed of music other people like. I see music in modern life as having a significant role in generational politics. I see music being used as a way to identify and distinguish different age groups and social groups. When I was in high school, in the early 90's, I had the experience of being at a get together at a friends house where the host wanted to listen to Simon and Garfunkel and she was embarrassed to ask the rest of us if it was okay if she put on Simon and Garfunkel. As it turned out, everyone there liked Simon and Garfunkel, but it was like this dirty little secret because it was music outside our generational sphere. That's where I see the most cases of shame with regard to music, when music is used as an identifying banner which separates people into distinguishable groups.
Funny you mentioned country music bc for some reason on long road trips, I love to listen to Country radio bc it’s all fresh to me, I don’t know the artists and I like the stories ❤️ I don’t feel embarrassed about it though but I’ve told people this and theyve acted like I should be which is so silly
It was that way when I was young over ABBA, I was a closeted fan. ... But that shit went away when I matured, and I have never been ashamed of any music I listen to. ... I think there are good songs in every genre, but it really depends on how much I relate to a song!
The first album I ever acquired by choice is Madonna's first album. I still love her song "Lucky Star", yet it can incite derision in others if I mention this. Some people are so cynical, they just dump on other people's sensitivities - and not just men. Having to be made to feel embarrassed about one's hearts feelings and attachments is just an exercise in evil by who supports it.
I love preparing music to perform and then watch the performance video and consider how I would react if I walked into the hall during the show. I routinely would turn around and walk out of my own show.. You can't unscrew up.
Growing up I found a lot of musical styles to be very tribalistic- Punk, Metal, Pop, New Wave, New Romantic, Wine bar Jazz, Ska, Indie. Some of these genres were diametrically opposed not just because of masculinity and femininity, but due to Class, Politics, Intellectualism, Age, and Fashion. The New Wave kids were too smart for Metal, the Punks too ‘real’ for New Romantics, the indie kids too socialist for anything too decadent. Glenn Matlock was famously fired from the Sex Pistols for liking the Beatles. I think it’s more if you assigned yourself to one particular movement or persona, you had to play along with the cliche that you were typecast with. Of course now everyone picks and chooses from the musical buffet so you don’t get such extreme cliques any more. Before we saw the album covers and chose what group we belonged to.
I used to have guilty pleasure for many songs. Example, as a teenage boy, Sinead O'Connors -Nothing Compares To You. I am glad to say there is no longer guilt, just pleasure.
First. Really enjoyed this and very informative. Was not surprised to hear that the 'new' Roman Catholic Church censored music, particularly female preferences. Second. In 1975 when I was about 18 I told someone in a pub that I liked some of Cliff Richards songs. It got the expected response of ridicule. Early on I figured out that my friends were mostly musical snobs and in an odd way that drove me to find and listen to anything and everything. There was however always a glimmer of embarrassment/shame in me when talking to other people about 'what I liked'. 3. Fast forward to 2005 and my son introduces me to among other things, new wave punk. I hadn't been listening to much music at all for years, but he plugged me back in. I've been lucky to have had a son and a daughter who are open to their old man hearing what they like. Or, maybe the different stuff they heard in the house from their parents when they were kids enabled that symbiotic relationship to grow. I will never hear as much music as I could have, but it's a smorgasbord out there! I think, and I hope, that shame will end.
Fascinating! I’m not sure I agree 100% (the nero example is a bad one, for mor than one reason), but the hypothesis seems really plausible. Congratulations on this one, ted!
I got here from the Rick Beato channel as well. Thanks for your thoughts on music. I also tend to take Aristotle and Plato seriously when they spoke about music influencing the morality of a nation.
Trying to learn Korean had me listening to K-pop for language immersion. Women singers too. I am really into some songs, and I listen to them when no one is around. Even I laughed at first ("....what is this, Star Wars?"). As it is, I listen to soul, classic rock, metal and jazz. Even when I was a metal playing guitarist, my favorite singer was, and still is, Belinda Carlisle.
Absolutely not..I listen to the music that I like and so it has been since ‘73 - ‘74. Taste often widen as you grow older but that’s natural. Never listened to jazz before but it’s been a real pleasure listening to and reading up on some of the great ones. Music is about feelings, sometimes a message and there’s nothing wrong with acknowledging or being close to your feelings. Or learning something new for that matter. Thanks for talking, discussing music.
An interesting take, and one that resonates with me. I do feel ashamed sharing my music, and as someone who said in the comments, it is like being ashamed of a part of myself. I suppose that it is grounded in trying to fit in and realizing that such tastes can make me feel like an outsider if I ever mentioned it. Time changes everything and though I do hesitate to share, I’m much more likely to do so than before during my teenage years. One other thing I realized about your perspective is that it reminds me a lot of Nietzsche’s The Birth of Tragedy and his analysis on Greek culture based on the Apollonian and Dionysian. It’s an interesting perspective but not necessarily the only way to see Greek culture. And in your case, not the only way to see and understand why we are ashamed. But Plato’s thoughts has been so engrained in western thought that we really do take for granted these beliefs. Using Plato, I wonder if this is an issue for us “bronze” folks instead of the “silver” or “gold” folks… I gotta read more Plato to see if he has a response for this.
I'm very happy to say that I stopped listening commercial radio about 30 years ago. I'm a musician and love many different styles of music from Classical to Rock. I definitely have my favorite bands or groups and I'm not embarrassed to share with others. Every time I hear someone playing commercial radio, I'm immediately reminded why I stopped listening to the radio. It's freakin' horrible. 🎸🎼🎵🎶🧠🌌♾
My musical tastes run in the eclectic. I Like Rock, Pop, R&B, Blues, Funk, Classical and Jazz and most of its subgenres. I dig some Country and Hip Hop too. And also 'Ethnic Music'. I also like what some may dub 'elevator music', Lounge, Movie music, even incidental music from TV ads and shopping mall, I often pull up my phone and 'Shazam' music being piped for Mall PAs. PS: Loved your interview w/ Rick Beato, I totally agree, music is a tool to alter one's consciousness, sounds organized in ways that take you on a journey of self discovery.
Not saying this is all wet, however I don’t know that you should pin shame and embarrassment on the music Ted. Many people want to be characterized by their music. It’s part of their identity. So it’s understandable that they are not gonna flaunt to others, music that they think betrays that. Secondly, people understand that others are judgy (and often asssholes). So I think most of what you are talking about, is just people, (again) completely understandably, seeking to avoid the ridicule/argument of having someone tell them that some music they like sucks. And on the other side of that coin, there’s the disappointment/frustration that usually comes with attempts to turn the closed-minded (or unlike-minded) onto something different. (Most casual listeners are hopelessly locked into their narrow genre/musical-time-period rut - but that’s whole other issue) Point is, people have very valid reasons outside of shame/embarrassment to keep at least some of their music to themselves. As far as what happened centuries ago, that doesn’t sound like shame either. That just sounds like the church/religion, demagogues and others with a soapbox trying to control people and tell them how and what to think. Anyhow, the POINT of music is to make you feel things, but shame and embarrassment are not among those things. So if you feel those things, it’s not the music, it’s probably joy-stealing people.
I kinda think that fear of other's judgement is the shame he is talking about though. The music isnt what causes shame, but I can admit that while I am a big fan of Mark Tremonti, due to the Christian ties to the lyrics in Creed, I hesitate to share that I like that band. I think Ted was just giving us an historical view of how far back this idea goes. What I wish he had covered in this video, and to your own point about judgement, I wish he talked about the criticism and judgement of music in our contemporary setting because I think alot of that is where the shaming comes from. I like an album, Anthony Fantano is feeling a light to strong 3 and I think he is smart, so maybe I like trash music? Lol Something in that realm.
@@themushtube42 It’s been a bit since I watched this video/left my comment, though I believe you and I are saying the same thing in essence. Best I remember, Ted came at it as listeners felt ashamed of their music. My point in short in that regard was that the problem lies INSTEAD with the judgy (often mean-spirited) people (who may not get or even like music) giving them a hard time about what they like.
As for expressing my vulnerability, listen to the song Just For You by American Zen. I wrote that to my wife when we were having problems and played it for her hoping this would say whatever didn’t come out in our conversations and perhaps be able to repair our marriage.
LEONARD COHEN is my favourite of all Time...he was treated badly back in the late 60s and 70s..you were a joke if you listened to him. 6:37 can't say anymore it's making me 😢❤him..A Humble Man...
Nope. Where I grew up the Radio Stations (only 2 for a long time) played everything from Calypso, Country, Pop, Reggae, Glen Miller etc. Many more stations now and the quality has gone down😢
I grew to appreciate Indian music from eating in Indian restaurants.Filling myself with delicious spiced curries always induced a kind of euphoric stupor which was only complemented by the hypnotizing Indian sounds on the restaurant’s playlist. I could drift away in reverie. The only trouble is whenever I hear Indian music it makes me hungry !
it is very interesting this separation of music into masculine and feminine. i never really looked at it this way but makes sense. i think i tend to like and play both. when i play ballads and smooth jazz and romantic music i guess that would be the feminine aspect( im a sucker for slow rnb jams) and i also love hard stuff too like tool , progressive funk, later miles davis which would be considered masculine music. interesting. i have never been ashamed of what i like to listen to probably because i have more sophisticated taste than the average person.
I proudly admit I like Conway Twitty, George Jones and Hoyt Axton. I like Elton John, Cher and Michael Bolton. I like Black Sabbath, KISS and Jethro Tull. I like Marvin Gaye, Jackie Wilson and Sam Cooke. I like Nat King Cole, Frank Sinatra and Ella Fitzgerald. I like a lot of classical music including a lot of operas. I like some Jazz, some Blues, some Bluegrass, some Folk, some Funk, New Age, Space and World music. If you listen to enough of it you can find something you like in almost any kind of music.
I think shame for liking a certain kind of music is probably more about peer pressure. Especially as you're growing up and first getting into music, you want to fit in. Back in the late 70s I was talking to a friend who had been along to lots of rock concerts with me over the previous five years, seeming to enjoy the music as much as I did. He said to me, "You know I never really liked any of that stuff. I really love punk." When rock and prog was 'hip', he gave every impression of being into it. Then when punk became popular, he told everyone he never liked all that dinosaur stuff, but instead loved punk.
I'm very proud of all the music I love. It's Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Tchaikovsky and Erroll Garner and my own. I love all of this and both "feminine" and "masculine" music and tell it to everyone I know. I have no shame of music in me.
I grew up in the 60's/70's and taught myself acoustic guitar listening to my mother's John Denver's Greatest Hits album. Being a teenager in the 70's there was no way on earth I would admit that to my peers in jr. high and high school. A few years ago I recall reading somewhere how everybody loved to hate John Denver and yet he sold tens of millions of albums. Somebody was buying all those records, right? These days I can go down the RUclips rabbit hole and am amazed at how may guitarists did exactly what I did. We could all play his albums front-to-back but only now will admit it.
I revisit an NPR Tiny Desk Concert by Mt. Eerie (Phil Elverum) frequently on YT. It's a perfect example of what Ted is discussing here. An analysis of his inability to embrace and continue his relationship/marriage with the amazing Michelle Williams in the face of his lingering grief over the death of his first wife. It's very raw, unpolished music that seems ugly at first, but gels into an immersive experience as one gains knowledge of the context. I'm another Rick Beatto transplant and looking forward to listening to your entire catalog here as I create in my wood shop.
I’m never ever embarrassed or ashamed of the music I like - sure as a teen while in a phase where we’re overly self conscious but once we grow up I think that disappears
I think there's an interesting conversation to be had about why some people feel ashamed, or at the very least, uncomfortable about the music they like. I often feel this way myself, and for various reasons. One reason is that discussing your music tastes with others can lead to some awkward and sometimes even heated conversations. That's why I try to avoid it whenever I can. It's especially the case when you admit to liking songs that are very different from what you usually hear. If I tell people that I primarily listen to classic rock and grunge, I'd feel weird telling them that I also sometimes listen to Taylor Swift and The Weeknd. I like that you brought up the concept of masculine and feminine music, because elements of that do still exist. Being a male, I do tend to primarily listen to "masculine" genres like rock, and shy away from genres considered more "feminine" such as pop. I don't necessarily dislike that sort of music, but hearing it can be weird at times since it's different from what I'd typically be expected to listen to. Being shamed by other people about your music choice also plays a role. For instance, my brother and I have drastically different music preferences, and we sometimes get into conflicts over it. He likes to say that my music taste is "boring" and uncool, and it definitely hurts because I know it wouldn't be worth it to show him some of my favorite songs and expect him to like them. Another thing relating to my previous point is the Internet. It's impossible to discuss music online without running into someone who will _really_ dislike your opinion. If I went on social media and claimed to dislike BTS, Billie Eilish, Olivia Rodrigo, or some other artist with a large and devoted fandom, I may have to go into hiding. Any opinion you have is pretty much guaranteed to be a bad take. Anyway, I'm glad I found this video because it's highly informative and definitely brings up some good points. Thank you!
One thing that I have started doing personally is I stopped negative commentary on music. Recently a friend made me a mixtape of their favorite songs (upon my request) and it was filled with Christian Rock, which is probably my least favorite genre (being atheist as well). However with having a positive mindset I have actually come to enjoy cd, and sing along to it in the car. To me there is no such thing as bad music, just music that's not for me right now.(someone else surely must enjoy it). I can still think about the arrangement, production, vocal quality, technique, emotions, chord changes. I don't see the reason to engage with bts and Billie eilish fans on Twitter on why their music sucks, when you could be engaging with people on the music you like. Especially considering how people perceive music is so personal.
@@liqa224 You have a point with positive commentary on music being important, and that is what I mainly do whenever I talk about music. I always try to explain why I like and don't like certain types of music, since you can get people to better understand your feelings about them that way compared to just saying "This kind of music sucks" or "This is the greatest artist ever and you'll never change my mind". Going on social media and announcing my dislike of certain artists isn't actually something I do (I guess I was a little unclear on that in my original comment), but there should be a way to speak critically of music on the Internet without being shamed for having an opinion. Even speaking positively of, say, an album that is hated by an artist's general fanbase can get you shamed. I'm the sort of person who would respectfully disagree with someone over their musical preference rather than get into a heated argument with them, but a lot of people would unfortunately prefer to choose the latter option. It's my fear of engaging with those people that makes me keep my opinions to myself. I just wish it wasn't that way.
This is interesting. I've never been ashamed of my listening choices. I was lucky enough to grow up around people with very good musical taste, and I was introduced to different styles all throughout my life. One minute I could be listening to Cheo Feliciano and the next minute I'm playing Delaney and Bonnie, followed by Cypress Hill and then some Electric Light Orchestra. Maybe some George Michael.
This is really interesting.. I’ve seen and heard of this some but it’s not something I’ve ever experienced.. I’ve always been extremely vocal about the music I love. I was raised by a bluegrass musician in the foothills of north Georgia and love the music of my roots so so much but I’m also a metal head who deeply love progressive metal and black metal but I’m also a massive Beatles fan and a fan of 60’s music in general. John Lennon is massively important to me but I also have a low key obsession with Reba McIntyre.. I mean I guess I’m all over the place but I love all these things bc they bring different parts of myself to the fore and it feels good to sort of wallow in the different facets of one’s personality and life experience 🤷🏻♀️
Can I suggest artists from Winnipeg Manitoba Canadas most diverse small city. Please listen to Richard Inman. William Prince is also amazing. There is a number of Native American artists to listen here in Winnipeg
Never be ashamed of your music, the more ecclectic the taste the more the art and culture youre recieving. Everybody should taste every single thing, art is art, its timeless. Just like food, try every thing. some music is written by one demographic and another a different culture, i think its amazing, travel through everything and dont make the mistake of making an identity fir yourself, ego is a delusion. we are spectators, soul travellers experiencing the world of form, the forms come up then dissipate its all an illusion anyway, protect your emotions and never recieve shaming from anyone, its proiection of their own ignorance. I listen to everything from eminem to leonard cohen to patsy cline to my favourite, piano and jazz. Music for every mood ,we are very privileged. The more music the better, the more education the better. Ill listen to love songs even, just to be in touch with my dusty heart space. Music changes emotional states, its a form of magic. Never be ashamed of anything.
Never in my long life have I even considered being ashamed of listening to any music. I'm kind of shocked to hear this has been going on for thousands of years. People care too much about what others think of them.
Thought-provoking! I think it's a multi-faceted phenomenon but you touched on a key point. I don't think this tackles the whole issue and gives a fully comprehensive answer to this behavior but it's def one side of the coin, and a very valid way to look at it in my view. Thanks for sharing your work in this video
It's a learned trait we discover from other people. It's another form of "othering" creating musical "tribes" Sneering at other peoples musical tastes begins early in school. Being in with the "cool kids" meant listening to a particular genre/artist - sometimes under sufferance! Racism in music is also deeply ingrained though many would never openly admit it (maybe not so much thee days in the current political climate). People often make assumptions about others based on their musical tastes. I'm certainly everyone has a musical "guilty pleasure"
It's not that I'm ashamed of the music I listen to it's just that the other person doesn't get it. I'm someone that appreciates good music whether it's Frank Sinatra or Metallica or Coltrane or Jaco Pastorius. Play someone something like Yesterday When I Was Young by Roy Clark they go "Yeah yeah great can I hear some Kiss or Nirvana now???" "Yeah whatever." LOL. It all hits a certain spot where the song resonates with people.
Came here from Rick Beato’s channel. Ted, Thank You for sharing your studies. Really gives me a new way of thinking about how and why music has evolved. I have decided to write a ten minute song. ❤️
Same ... from Rick Beato's channel .. but love Ted's work. Already downloaded his book on learning about listening to jazz.
I've been thinking about this all day... and the ten minute song thing doesn't make sense. He said ten minutes of the same beat will put you in a trance, so you need a song at least 11 minutes to achieve 1 minute of a trance like state, and it has to have no change in the beat or timing. So what does this classify in pop music? Ambient music? Brian Eno Discreet Music?
BEATO!
Same👍🎶🎵🎶
Same.
Wanna hear a funny story about music shame - or lack thereof? My former sister-in law (for a while a VERY well-known celebrity) liked to cultivate a sophisticated image even though she'd grown up poor and down-home. Her husband, a true New York sophisticate, was fond of country and bluegrass music - and didn't care what anyone else thought about it - or him. So she played opera recordings at home and didn't want to him to play what he liked - which was in fact the music she grew up with. One day, with a particularly over-wrought aria (from Lakme, as I recall) blasting on their stereo, she turned to her husband with tears in her eyes and said "I really don't know why this music makes me cry - but I can't help it." He replied - "I know - it's the lack of banjos." Insert rim shot here...
I'm not sure you should be proud of this...
LMFAO !
Lol as someone raised by a bluegrass musician and who is pursuing bluegrass music w him these days this is pretty funny
@@lordybomb - Proud? Did I say I was proud? Can you explain why you think I've exhibited any kind of "pride" here?
@@MysticHeather Best of luck to you both - love me some bluegrass...
I'm not ashamed to say that Eyes Without a Face by Billy Idol nearly brings me to tears for some reason. Maybe cuz I'm subliminally reminded that my teenage years are irretrievable. But that song is really amazing.
This makes me think of the divide between elite or “intellectual” music, and “popular” music. Even within classical I see people denigrating things for being too popular-sounding, not just in terms of simplicity (like a Strauss waltz, which was essentially pop) but in terms of emotion. Tchaikovsky being exhibit A. Definitely rooted in the same prejudices.
I loved Karen Carpenter's voice and music. It was beautifully recorded and produced, but I would never admit that to my friends at the time it was released.
Just discovered the carpenters. Amazing sophisticated pop songs .. the brother arrangements are ornate and awesome. Watched some live clips her drumming was legit too.
They had a hit later on with a video with aliens and spaceships ... amazing!
Totally get why is wasn’t cool to like back in the day...This far after the fact though, I hope more people hear them. I think they are easy to like now without embarrassment. I think there is more musical depth there than most people would guess
@@ericmckayrq She was well regarded as a drummer by her peers. "Her drumming has been praised by fellow musicians Hal Blaine, Cubby O'Brien and Buddy Rich] and by Modern Drummer magazine." The Carpenters were very talented song writers and musicians, but it was the timber of Karen's iconic voice that brought it all together. You are correct. More people should know and listen to their music. I happy to hear that you were able to find your way to it.
@@joecaner I’m happy to hear she was so well regarded by her peers for drumming! Agree her vocals were unique and fantastic
We were quite broad minded at my school in the early 70s and played The Carpenters alongside Sabbath, Led Zep, Jimi Hendrix, Cream etc. I think we wanted to get away from the bigotry and arrogance of opinion that our parents and grandparents had…
Glad I scrolled down a ways before posting what would have been an almost exact copy of your comment. Like everyone else who came of age in the 70s I loved the Beatles, Led Zeppelin, the Doobie Brothers, et al. But I used to play my sister's Carpenters albums LOUD, and sing along with with them. I would NEVER admit I was a Carpenters fan. Other shameful pleasures included The Association and Bread.
*_"Oooooo! You can dance! You can jive! Having the time of your life! Oooooo! See that girl! Watch that scene! Digging the Dancing Queen!"_* 🎹🎹🎹
Oooh, good one! Most music on the radio, through the decades, has been crap, and I've generally hated it, but one thing I've learned to appreciate is the beautifully crafted pop song. I probably wouldn't have wanted to be seen singing along with Abba at some point in my life but a few artists obviously are able to produce music that is both popular and good.
@@61hink There's a video here on RUclips of Steve Vai's band doing a killer excerpt from a Benny Andersson & Björn Ulvaeus composition called, _Bangkok,_ from the musical, _One Night in Bangkok,_ which they worked with Tim Rice on... Besides being able to craft a perfect pop song..., they actually had some pretty impressive compositional chops for fairly progressive and intricate theatrical and cinematic productions...
Here from Rick Beato's video, didn't know you also had an amazing channel! Love this historical, psychological, and most importantly human analysis of music!
Hi Ted, enjoyed your perspective about today's music industry and how it relates to musicians from Rick Beato's interview on his channel. (this will probably be long, so apologies ahead of time)
In my 40's I started to grow weary of anything on the radio, none of it connected to me, so much so, I found myself reverting to music I enjoyed in my youth. Along w/ this, I had gone decades w/o being creative, as trying to turn the creativity I enjoyed, my artistic instincts, 'died' when I tried to turn my artistic passion into a 'job' after high school'
Then I discovered an artist on a show I never watched, American Idol and found my passion to 'create' ignited again, in this gal, I'd found my muse.
Haley Reinhart is an old school artist, was raised on Rock (especially the Beatles) can sing any genre, but she excels in Jazz, Blues and Rock. She knew that coming off a reality show, she would have to prove herself as many in the industry looked down on reality show contestants as not having put in the work, not 'earning' their way, taking a short cut.
After a disastrous period w/ her first label, Interscope, she decided to forego any help from the industry and has since worked her way the last ten years as an independent artist w/ some success (with her Elvis cover of "Can't Help Falling in Love" and w/ the RUclips collective "Postmodern Jukebox"), but it's a long road for her fans who long for recognition.
This is why I started my channel, as an independent artist, Haley doesn't have access to the limitless promotion of Music Industry megalith, so I've gone to many of her shows and w/ the help of a core group of fans, we have done our best to do a grassroots of promoting her.
To the point: Some of Haley's long time fans have started to wonder if it was a mistake for Haley to forego signing w/ a label even if the original music Haley writes isn't music you'd hear on the airwaves of today, although she might do better in earlier decades like in the '70's. But Haley is convinced she wants to earn her stripes on her own merit, and understands the road is long. Her main recognition is Jazz but her own music is derived from decades past, she's creating her own musical space.
In your interview w/ Rick, some of the things you spoke of, reenforced Haley's notion of not relying on the music making machine that might take away from her creativity, I wish/hope more of Haley's fans see the interview to maybe understand why doing it the 'normal' way through the industry, doesn't necessarily get you where you want, earn you what you think, all while losing your rights and creative freedom.
You said you've listened to hundreds of songs, I'd like to introduce you to a couple Haley's four albums (3 of the 4 have original songs written by Haley), she's old school and is an incredible vocalist. When you have the time, my two favorite of Haley's original albums are "Better" (2nd album) and her most recent album (2019) "Lo-Fi Soul". From your interview talking about what musicians face nowadays, I hope you can enjoy music from a talented artist that doesn't get much recognition, but her heart and love of music are in the right place, Thanks for reading and apologies for the length, cheers. Tusk
The Ancient Greeks related each mode to a specific mood and style, for instance the Dorian was related to what Mr. Gioia calls "masculine" music etc. Thanks for your intelligent and informative representation of problems related to music!
I’m sort of lucky in that I have never given a toss what other people thought about the music I loved. Jazz, Prog, Soul. Blues, Experimental- if it resonates and moves me in some way I dig it.
Same for me, but I think this is an outsider mindset. I enjoy having eclectic musical tastes. Some people want this eclecticism and some people want to be inside the mainstream.
BOOM.
And there it is.
TAKE HEED PEOPLE... love what you love enjoy what you enjoy and as long as yr not bothering anyone else with whatever it is............. F' em if they don't approve.
& Rock On.
Musical guilty pleasures are a cultural phenomena and it's directly related to the Ego: We feel shame about other people knowing we like certain kinds of music, because we care about how they perceive us. We think if people know we like certain kinds of music, they will think less of us. We want people to think we're great. That's the Ego. But the same is true with other things, like movies, books, sexual kinks, etc. It's not limited to music. And again, even though culture plays a large role in it (since culture dictates what kinds of music are considered ok to like and what kinds are not), the core of the problem is our ego, and that's where it must be attacked. Once we no longer care what people think of us, the shame dissipates away.
Stange. Back in the early seventies, many of my friends got on my case about liking Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin, and such. My favorites included Donovan , Neil Young, CSN, and Simon and Garfunkel. I was puzzled that others wondered how I could like proto metal, but I did and thought they were missing out on great music. Later in life, I still listened to music from the late sixties and early seventies mostly, but added groups like Tom Petty, AC/DC, and Metallica whose roots were still from that period. I was criticized for being stuck in the past. However, I know what I like and never feel ashamed of my taste in music. Sheryl Crow, Alanis Morissette, and Nirvana all struck cords with me. Being ashamed of your taste in music is a bit like being ashamed of a part of yourself. I have really enjoyed listening to you, especially your talk with Rick Beato. Thank you.
A minor Sus. Beato.
Sounds like you had some lame friends
Good comment. You know, there was something wrong with young person in the 70s who openly criticized Toni iommie's guitar. I was too young at that time. But I remember older guys against different music. Even then, i could tell they didn't know what the fuck they were talkin about.
@@dannyhood8857 TONY IOMMI
ElrohirGuitar - I was getting into music the same time as you then, but what I was mainly into was the guitar. So I liked Deep Purple, but I also liked Simon and Garfunkel, Cat Stevens and Yes, Allan Holdsworth and Julian Bream. Guitar linked them all together, and I was always surprised when other people didn't have as broad a taste as I did - because I didn't think it was broad at all!
I'm 64, and got heavily into music in the early 70s. I listened to all the usual suspects back then, but that included bands or artists ranging from Hendrix to the Allman Brothers, Stevie Wonder, Black Sabbath, Mahavishnu Orchestra, etc. Along the way, I picked up on punk, post-punk, free jazz, hip-hop, noise, and more. I never wanted to be stuck in one place. There's a whole world of music out there. Enjoy it all, if you can. If you can't, then love what you love and make no apologies for it.
Same. For me, I learned that from my father who was into the music from his generation and mine, often introducing me to music from my generation. I was born in 1958, dad in 1925.
I am thinking of 2 very traditional and very masculine men in my family - My war hero Grandfather who simply adored Karen Carpenter - any my big, gruff, conservative Father-in-law who was infatuated with the New Age music of Enya - to their credit, neither one of them was ashamed about these musical connections - quite the contrary, they were very happy and open about it - but looking back at the older pop music of their generation, it amazes me how much of it was soaked, drenched, and marinated in luxurious and dreamy romanticism - how could these men from that era not have a soft side with such beautiful pop music from the 30's, 40's and 50's ?
I am 41 year old, a male. I like Enya and Yanni... not ashamed of it at all because I realize how great their music is actually and I am able to understand that people would make fun of such music because of all wrong reasons. That does not mean that I won't enjoy sometimes to listen to Tom Waits (I actually like him quite a lot, especially more agressive and experimental stuff), Deep Purple, Leonard Cohen or some repetitive blues folk song by Bob Dylan. I still like Yanni because his music is creative, complex, innovative, unique etc. I like Enya because she may be simple but has a knack for melodies and interesting harmonies and all those multilayered vocals are simply her sound that she created. She is truly unique.
I also love Vangelis and especially Ennio Morricone. I love Elton John and Billy Joel too. I also love ABBA. Brandi Carlile, Mark Knopfler, Chris Rea too. I also like later stuff by The Beatles... they were truly creative and helped music push forward.
Sure, there is some bland, sterile, boring and really not creative new age music out there, but there are also some brilliant composers out there who are disregarded simply because they're not 'cool' enugh.
I've always owned my taste in music, even if it can be cheesy. Plenty of snark and criticism came my way, and i was never remotely deterred from being open about what i like.
So this topic interests me not because of my direct experience, but that I've always wondered why other people are so critical of others' tastes.
These critics are just virtue signaling. Ignore them as I do. Music is full of grand exponents who crossed genres effortlessly. Andre Previn, as well as being a top-drawer orchestra conductor, was a really good Jazz Pianist and friend of Oscar Peterson. He also took an interest in Gritty Northern Brass bands.
What's interesting is many rock bands have their one ballad that makes the money.
that was certainly the record company formula starting in the early and mid 80's with the "power ballad" aka the money maker
@@jlcougilljr True. In the latter part of the 70s, power ballads were starting to take hold of the charts and paved the way for the next decade. Here are a few I remember with top Billboard chart positions.
Lady - Styx (1975) #6
Dream On - Aerosmith (1976) #6
Love Hurts - Nazareth (1976) #8
We Are The Champions - Queen (1978) #4
By the time grunge took over the 90s, the power ballad took a dive.
@@D_Tuned We are the Champions is an interesting in that it isn't really a love ballad & is still often used in a masculine sporting context...I think Freddie took inspiration from My Way which is also quite butch despite being a ballad...
@@D_Tuned
People and music living in the past because the vast majority of the current state of music artist have no talent. The top music charts are a sad joke. That leaves me discovering artists elsewhere.
ruclips.net/video/XTClBCoyPJM/видео.html
Like "Lucky Man" on ELP's first album? So divergent in style they had to employ synthesizer for the first time in a rock song.
Interesting take on this. In my view, to the extent one feels shame about listening to certain music, it’s because one doesn’t want to admit having any connection to the audience that record companies and executives market that music to. To that end, jazz fans shouldn’t admit to liking country music, hip hop fans shouldn’t admit to liking classical music, and so on. What’s interesting is when you consider the interests of the musicians *themselves* , which often usurp these categories and this shame. Charlie Parker openly enjoyed country music. Louis Armstrong loved Guy Lombardo. This was music these musicians weren’t *supposed* to like, yet they did. And I think it’s because Plato was half correct: there are two types of music, but one is interesting, the other, boring. And the music alone should dictate that, not one’s desire to fit in with a packaged audience.
I will be here to admit to liking both hip hop and classical music. Honestly kinda an interesting experience when I practice classical music, listen to it on my way to hip hop dance classes, then unwind with more classical music. Haven’t met anyone else who shares these tastes in music, I also like KHipHop + Jpop which makes it more complicated.
@@TheAkumaChan I’m equally at home listening to Bach, Doc (Watson), or Pops (Louis Armstrong). My own interests tend towards instrumental music, but we all have our own proclivities. Not everyone should have to like everything. I have a sibling who likes classical and late 80s rap. He grew up with both.
In my opinion, most Americans tend to listen to an audience, not to music. That’s a shame, because it says more about our desire to belong to a group than anything.
I think that's a good take. In my opinion it is because music is part of our identity. We identify with certain type of music and culture and social circle that kind of music represents. We are proud of the music that represents part of what we want to be seen as. For example, a person who wants to present themselves as high class, cultured and posh, and mingle with this kinds of people, will be very proud to announce they listen to classical music to all their friends (and let's assume he/she actualy realy likes classical music - they aren't "faking"). They will be less keen to admit they like certain hip hop song, even if they secretly do and listen to it in their car. Similarly, if you have a metalhead, who secretly likes a kpop song (extreme example), they would be very unlikely to admit to their friends for similar reason - as they would be afraid how other would see them - they would be afraid others would see them "fake" or "shallow" or "comercial", and not "true" metalhead.
@@Member_zero I think the word you're looking for is "poser". ;-)
That, of course, is what happened to the "hair bands" of the '80s, to the extent that the sort of real songwriting talent that might have fixed that scene was scared away from it. Something similar happened to the "AOR" of the late '70s--all the songwriting talent went into "new wave".
absolutely.
I'm into jazz fusion from the 70s and 80s....I'm 100% not ashamed of my taste....obscure fusion get's the thumbs up every time
Indeed, there are some very fine pianists and keyboard players in the jazz world. Hiromi Uehara easily has the measured of Yuga Wang.
In my experience, modern shame of music comes from a given guilty pleasure artist or genre not being socially acceptable in your circle. A classic example would be someone running with the heavy metal crowd secretly listening to some of the European pop-folk genres that have been ridiculed for being low-grade overall. I've seen people being discovered and ridiculed for that IRL.
Detroit Metal City
I agree. There is something about humans where deep down, we feel a need to belong to a group. We're wired that way, it's how we've survived for millenia. Groups have rules, and all it takes is one person to say "disco sucks" or whatever and an unwritten rule is made. Most people don't want to challenge leaders/anyone in authority, or the status quo. Even those who think they are being "cool", are doing so often because of marketing or rebellion.
Please make more videos. These are fascinating subjects and it’s refreshing to hear your perspective on them. Thanks
Once I started admitting that I love to listen to and play smooth jazz, I realized I didn't care what anyone thought. I sounds amazing to me and makes me happy, so I'm going to keep doing it. Also I play banjo for a living so that pretty much sums up my music tastes lol.
I was sound man for a smooth Jazz band... Avalon Jazz Trio... one of my gigs was Banjo Brunch during Jazz festival Week. The best professional banjo players I know never play for longer than 15 seconds before they start another joke. Most of their jokes are about banjos, banjo players and the banjos affinity for garbage cans and dumpsters and the sounds they make together. Banjo truly is an art and the true artist never reallly play the banjo but make jokes about it. Like Steve Martin... but actually funny... in a sad way..
Surely not the evil Kenny G?
Put the two together and you basically have Bela Fleck
Ted, you’re a wise old owl. Take that the right way. I am very much enjoying watching your videos and reading your articles. Thank you!
Im never ashamed of the music i love blues,motown ,70's disco love it.
Music is often associated with Identity. Some of us define who we are in relation to the music we like and the music we say (publicly) we don't like. Young people, especially, are often tribal about their music tastes. Membership of youth subcultural groups are often connected to particular genres of music and not to other genres of music. Young people think: if I like Band A, then I shouldn't like Band B. I think as we get older, and hopefully less anxious about identity, these tribal attitudes become less prevalent and we allow ourselves to enjoy a wider range of music genres.
Shame is primary conected to status, and that is likely the atavistic basis of the feeling.
And it rings true to me, that my guillty pleasures is hid due to percieved risk of status loss.
So i believe this came before Plato and the rest. And they merely rationalized.
However I think you have a point, and a refreshing and useful take on this.
Actually I am blown away, by your take. Thank you sir,
From a new subscriber!
I’ve been coming to terms with liking Coldplay. Playing it on the piano has been involving. But I do get shamed for it by many people I mention it to. But I’ve come out 😜
I don't think I've ever been ashamed of any music that interests or excites me. I've mostly always played traditional jazz & blues over a span of some 35 - 40 yrs., but if find something interesting in disco & polka, then I'm just as driven to understand and explore it; open to express, incorporate and share it in my own music.
At school I was not a popular kid and every time I said i liked something some other kid would say it was rubbish, so I never felt comfortable about talking about liking a particular band etc (though I liked pet shop boys and REM amongst others). Got out of that societal prison when I left school, one of the first albums I bought was Afro Cuban All Stars without actually knowing anything about the music (had no idea what it would sound like, just thought the guys on the album art looked cool), I loved that album and still do. Also went through a massive Kate Bush phase, very interesting music and songs. If i like music I just like it, no apology.
The way tou move your hands is rather funnt (to me at least), but please don’t stop doing that. It’s part of tour brand. Your videos are intelligent, short (thanks for that!) and very informative. Thank you. Subscribed.
Please don't take the following criticism as hate. I love your work, and I consistently find it insightful and thought-provoking--even when I sometimes disagree with it.
I don't think feelings of shame with respect to musical taste in the modern era are in any way related to the historical prejudices you describe. How many universally beloved songs or pieces of music since the early 1800's express forms of love and emotion (authentically or otherwise)? A lot, definitely, and most, arguably, since the era of popular music in the 20th century.
Instead I think these feelings of shame tend to surround music that expresses a kind of sappiness, which I would argue is related to things like fakeness, sentimentality (in the negative sense of that word), commercialism, immaturity, and superficiality. It's common for us to label mass-market-type pop songs as guilty pleasures, while we see other, much more serious works (including serious pop songs) as respectable--even when they outwardly express very similar things.
To me this is an important distinction. I won't advocate for greater shame per se, but fakeness, sentimentality, commercialism, immaturity, and superficiality really are problematic. And an ethic that discourages those things is not something I would want to eschew--especially in today's cultural landscape--in the name of echoing a pro-"vulnerability" discourse that's trending.
Gioia's work is most valuable when he is wrong...which is often. It gets you thinking and then arriving at a different conclusion. Curious phenomenon.
I started watching a video with him on Mike Beato's channel and it didn't take me to dismiss (at least in my mind) a lot of what he was asserting. When I was young, of course nothing existed but rock, and I was a card carrying member of the disco sucks crowd. Thankfully my taste has matured to appreciate the talent required to create any type of quality music. The Bee Gees were asked to write songs for Saturday Night Fever and did it in single weekend. Now I think those are songs are great.
I think Ted is correct. You need to dig deeper into how you define fakeness, and sappiness (those seem like personal qualifiers). I think being ashamed of your music comes from vulnerability. I'm not really sure where this connection to pop music comes from ( personal experience maybe?) Nobody I know is ashamed to be an Ed Sheeran or Coldplay fan, . However music that means a lot to you(like an emotional connection) will make you vulnerable to share with others, you worry that something you hold so dear can be rejected or mocked by someone. Pop artists have incredibly strong social media presence, follower counts. Ther are millions of people who are openly declaring their liking to pop musicians, probably more than almost any other public figure. I think people get labeled as lame, or have poor "taste" by others for listening to pop music, but generally speaking a vast majority of the population isn't ashamed of listening to pop music.
You’re perpetuating what he’s talking about. Too cool to be vulnerable?
I largely agree, except for sentimentality being "problematic". What harm can it do?
I’m a classically trained violinist. And I listened and still listen to classical music. High school college today. My friends listen to it while we were in our cars. Rap, heavy metal, pop…all took backseat to my classical. And they all loved it.
Love your channel, Ted! Found you through Mr Beato. Subscribed & looking forward.
Ted...thanks for this talk and the historical context from which it has evolved. I love all kinds of music and I am not ashamed at all to listen to any genre or type of music (whether it's vulnerable or female-oriented music or what have you). Music, as an expressive art form and one that we are innately born with (starting with an appreciation for rhythm which must harken back to our earliest experiences in the womb and being subject to our mothers' heart beat) and one that helps us transcend time and space, is shared by all cultures. What I find shameful (at least here in the US) is the devolution of music making (at least the crap that is served to us by the big media publishers) to a formulaic, bubble gum nonsense that is simply groove based but that is devoid of harmonic richness and complexity. It is music that is dumbed down and sells the audience short. I couldn't tell you who the top music artists are today (or if I have heard their names I couldn't tell you what their songs are) because pop music today feels very safe, sanitized, formulaic, and uninteresting to me. If I were listening to and craving that stuff, I guess I would be ashamed to admit it.
Thanks for this Ted.....However, you forgot about CONFUSCIOUS and his theories about music and how it reflected the consciousness of a society, its culture and level of education or lack thereof.
Thanks for this! 12 yrs old and We've Only Just Begun did it to me!
Humorous, Entertaining, Thought-Provoking! Thank You! :)
Excellent. BTW, Mary Beard points out in her book dealing with Nero that the fiddle wasn't invented at the time that Rome burned.
I have been a musician for 45 years and no matter my level of experience, because of my lack of success, I am held in low regard by people around me who have been more fortunate than I . I only do it because it is all I ever wanted to do, The more expressive I become, the less it matters to others. I feel shame because as much as I can do , It only will ever be valuable to me.
Keep going my friend. I am in exactly the same boat. I cannot even read music, but I can hear harmony and just about get my head around Rythm. Music is a learning curve however accomplished you are.
Watching your lecture at Belmont right now. Discovered you through Rick Beato. Bless you for talking at this level.
An excellent introduction to a very interesting subject, one that really demands more than six minutes to fully parse. Much of the very best music combines the masculine/feminine, Apollonian/Dionysian, etc. which is why the second movement of Beethoven's 7th Symphony can simultaneously thrill our intellect while moving us to tears. I'm grateful that I have no guilty pleasures in music ... it's all pure pleasure, no guilt. As Duke Ellington said, there are two kinds of music: good and bad, and I like the good kind no matter the flavor.
Got here from the Rick Beato channel as well. I've enjoyed your thoughts on music very much. I also tend to take Aristotle and Plato seriously when they spoke about the moral influences of music.
Personally, I tend to keep a lot of my favorite music to myself because I know the person or people around me are not moved by it. That doesn't mean I don't give it a shot to be open about my play list but after experiencing some reactions, that's when I know how to "DJ" when other people are around. For example, I know I can listen to a wide variety of music genres with my wife (one of the reasons I married her) but my little sister will always start complaining if I turn from the hip hop channel. Also my favorite music is personal to me with an emotional bond and I can't stand any childish reactions while I'm listening to my favorite music. Perhaps some of the shame is really worrying about what others think but not really you being ashamed, just reading the room like politics. On the other hand I keep in mind that it's important to share your personal music even if at the time someone don't like it. They may grow to appreciate being exposed to something outside their comfort zone later on. The same way I hated my parent's music as a child and now I hunt that music down. And yeah, misogyny is real.
Ted, your observation is 110% right on and the history back to Plato is just amazing-and needed! granted- this subject effects all music but will only be understood by the hard core and avid music lovers. a funny but REAL example of this goes back to our highschool days and i'm sure a lot of us clearly remember. the hard rock or metal lovers(groups) usually put down and shamed the pop or classical music lovers(groups) and visa versa, or the Jazz or R&B lovers(group) put down and shamed the country lovers(groups) and visa versa. what you didn't mention that should be said is that with most things in our society that is breed into us and also goes back in history to Plato and before is that it's all very territorial and tribal as well in where groups(in this case music lovers of certain genres) would and do put down and shame other groups and society(and pier pressure)has formed to the point that you are almost forced to pick a group(or pick a side) which is very much programmed in our dna in that territorial and tribal aspect as the group has to survive. sadly, this is all more previlent today than in any time,but not so much in relationship to music but as it is to politics,etc. in which all should be shamed for that that go down that destructive path and to the point today that simple communication doesn't even seem to work. at the end of the day love and listen to the music you love, and the older i get the less i have gave a shit what others think of the music and genres i love. thanks for the content Ted, this needed to be made and put out there.
I had guilty pleasures when I was younger, and rejected entire genres of music because it wasn't cool...but now I allow myself to like what I like guilt free!
This vid is obviously geared towards the younger listeners. Once you reach a certain age (I am 50+), generally you couldn't care less about what anyone thinks about your choices in life. I'm a jazz fan (and a black man), and though I'm not a fan of (most) country music, I do enjoy; The Carpenters, The Police, Hall and Oats, The Captain and Tennile, Marilyn Mccoo, The Bee Gees, The Beatles, Diana Ross, The Doobies, The Eagles, Ambrosia, Toto, early rap/techno, and many, many other artists/music forms that many might be embarrassed to admit to.
60+ agrees.
I wouldn't say I'm ashamed of music I like, but I might joke that I am ashamed of music other people like. I see music in modern life as having a significant role in generational politics. I see music being used as a way to identify and distinguish different age groups and social groups. When I was in high school, in the early 90's, I had the experience of being at a get together at a friends house where the host wanted to listen to Simon and Garfunkel and she was embarrassed to ask the rest of us if it was okay if she put on Simon and Garfunkel. As it turned out, everyone there liked Simon and Garfunkel, but it was like this dirty little secret because it was music outside our generational sphere. That's where I see the most cases of shame with regard to music, when music is used as an identifying banner which separates people into distinguishable groups.
Incisive.
Funny you mentioned country music bc for some reason on long road trips, I love to listen to Country radio bc it’s all fresh to me, I don’t know the artists and I like the stories ❤️ I don’t feel embarrassed about it though but I’ve told people this and theyve acted like I should be which is so silly
Very very interesting Ted, thank you for sharing your knowledge…
It was that way when I was young over ABBA, I was a closeted fan. ... But that shit went away when I matured, and I have never been ashamed of any music I listen to. ... I think there are good songs in every genre, but it really depends on how much I relate to a song!
The first album I ever acquired by choice is Madonna's first album. I still love her song "Lucky Star", yet it can incite derision in others if I mention this. Some people are so cynical, they just dump on other people's sensitivities - and not just men. Having to be made to feel embarrassed about one's hearts feelings and attachments is just an exercise in evil by who supports it.
I love preparing music to perform and then watch the performance video and consider how I would react if I walked into the hall during the show. I routinely would turn around and walk out of my own show.. You can't unscrew up.
Growing up I found a lot of musical styles to be very tribalistic- Punk, Metal, Pop, New Wave, New Romantic, Wine bar Jazz, Ska, Indie. Some of these genres were diametrically opposed not just because of masculinity and femininity, but due to Class, Politics, Intellectualism, Age, and Fashion. The New Wave kids were too smart for Metal, the Punks too ‘real’ for New Romantics, the indie kids too socialist for anything too decadent. Glenn Matlock was famously fired from the Sex Pistols for liking the Beatles. I think it’s more if you assigned yourself to one particular movement or persona, you had to play along with the cliche that you were typecast with.
Of course now everyone picks and chooses from the musical buffet so you don’t get such extreme cliques any more. Before we saw the album covers and chose what group we belonged to.
I used to have guilty pleasure for many songs. Example, as a teenage boy, Sinead O'Connors -Nothing Compares To You. I am glad to say there is no longer guilt, just pleasure.
First. Really enjoyed this and very informative. Was not surprised to hear that the 'new' Roman Catholic Church censored music, particularly female preferences. Second. In 1975 when I was about 18 I told someone in a pub that I liked some of Cliff Richards songs. It got the expected response of ridicule. Early on I figured out that my friends were mostly musical snobs and in an odd way that drove me to find and listen to anything and everything. There was however always a glimmer of embarrassment/shame in me when talking to other people about 'what I liked'. 3. Fast forward to 2005 and my son introduces me to among other things, new wave punk. I hadn't been listening to much music at all for years, but he plugged me back in. I've been lucky to have had a son and a daughter who are open to their old man hearing what they like. Or, maybe the different stuff they heard in the house from their parents when they were kids enabled that symbiotic relationship to grow. I will never hear as much music as I could have, but it's a smorgasbord out there! I think, and I hope, that shame will end.
Fascinating! I’m not sure I agree 100% (the nero example is a bad one, for mor than one reason), but the hypothesis seems really plausible. Congratulations on this one, ted!
Here because of @Rick Beato interview. Have also created my Substack. Thank you.
As a lover of music I get excited to share what I find or listen to. I always find these videos informative and thought provoking.
I accept your thesis- I've spent many a year listening to Mahavishnu Orchestra, but not many people catch me blubbing to James Taylor x
I got here from the Rick Beato channel as well. Thanks for your thoughts on music. I also tend to take Aristotle and Plato seriously when they spoke about music influencing the morality of a nation.
Trying to learn Korean had me listening to K-pop for language immersion. Women singers too. I am really into some songs, and I listen to them when no one is around. Even I laughed at first ("....what is this, Star Wars?"). As it is, I listen to soul, classic rock, metal and jazz. Even when I was a metal playing guitarist, my favorite singer was, and still is, Belinda Carlisle.
ruclips.net/video/-c94l25NX_s/видео.html
i just absolutely love this video, thank you!
Absolutely not..I listen to the music that I like and so it has been since ‘73 - ‘74. Taste often widen as you grow older but that’s natural. Never listened to jazz before but it’s been a real pleasure listening to and reading up on some of the great ones. Music is about feelings, sometimes a message and there’s nothing wrong with acknowledging or being close to your feelings. Or learning something new for that matter. Thanks for talking, discussing music.
An interesting take, and one that resonates with me. I do feel ashamed sharing my music, and as someone who said in the comments, it is like being ashamed of a part of myself. I suppose that it is grounded in trying to fit in and realizing that such tastes can make me feel like an outsider if I ever mentioned it. Time changes everything and though I do hesitate to share, I’m much more likely to do so than before during my teenage years.
One other thing I realized about your perspective is that it reminds me a lot of Nietzsche’s The Birth of Tragedy and his analysis on Greek culture based on the Apollonian and Dionysian. It’s an interesting perspective but not necessarily the only way to see Greek culture. And in your case, not the only way to see and understand why we are ashamed. But Plato’s thoughts has been so engrained in western thought that we really do take for granted these beliefs. Using Plato, I wonder if this is an issue for us “bronze” folks instead of the “silver” or “gold” folks… I gotta read more Plato to see if he has a response for this.
Peer pressure in school did influence me. But I now Listen to classical to Punk a little rap and opera
I'm very happy to say that I stopped listening commercial radio about 30 years ago. I'm a musician and love many different styles of music from Classical to Rock. I definitely have my favorite bands or groups and I'm not embarrassed to share with others. Every time I hear someone playing commercial radio, I'm immediately reminded why I stopped listening to the radio.
It's freakin' horrible.
🎸🎼🎵🎶🧠🌌♾
Thank you Ted, Rick Beato paved the way,subscribed
My musical tastes run in the eclectic. I Like Rock, Pop, R&B, Blues, Funk, Classical and Jazz and most of its subgenres. I dig some Country and Hip Hop too. And also 'Ethnic Music'. I also like what some may dub 'elevator music', Lounge, Movie music, even incidental music from TV ads and shopping mall, I often pull up my phone and 'Shazam' music being piped for Mall PAs.
PS: Loved your interview w/ Rick Beato, I totally agree, music is a tool to alter one's consciousness, sounds organized in ways that take you on a journey of self discovery.
Not saying this is all wet, however I don’t know that you should pin shame and embarrassment on the music Ted.
Many people want to be characterized by their music. It’s part of their identity. So it’s understandable that they are not gonna flaunt to others, music that they think betrays that.
Secondly, people understand that others are judgy (and often asssholes). So I think most of what you are talking about, is just people, (again) completely understandably, seeking to avoid the ridicule/argument of having someone tell them that some music they like sucks.
And on the other side of that coin, there’s the disappointment/frustration that usually comes with attempts to turn the closed-minded (or unlike-minded) onto something different. (Most casual listeners are hopelessly locked into their narrow genre/musical-time-period rut - but that’s whole other issue)
Point is, people have very valid reasons outside of shame/embarrassment to keep at least some of their music to themselves.
As far as what happened centuries ago, that doesn’t sound like shame either. That just sounds like the church/religion, demagogues and others with a soapbox trying to control people and tell them how and what to think.
Anyhow, the POINT of music is to make you feel things, but shame and embarrassment are not among those things. So if you feel those things, it’s not the music, it’s probably joy-stealing people.
I kinda think that fear of other's judgement is the shame he is talking about though. The music isnt what causes shame, but I can admit that while I am a big fan of Mark Tremonti, due to the Christian ties to the lyrics in Creed, I hesitate to share that I like that band. I think Ted was just giving us an historical view of how far back this idea goes. What I wish he had covered in this video, and to your own point about judgement, I wish he talked about the criticism and judgement of music in our contemporary setting because I think alot of that is where the shaming comes from. I like an album, Anthony Fantano is feeling a light to strong 3 and I think he is smart, so maybe I like trash music? Lol Something in that realm.
@@themushtube42 It’s been a bit since I watched this video/left my comment, though I believe you and I are saying the same thing in essence. Best I remember, Ted came at it as listeners felt ashamed of their music. My point in short in that regard was that the problem lies INSTEAD with the judgy (often mean-spirited) people (who may not get or even like music) giving them a hard time about what they like.
As for expressing my vulnerability, listen to the song Just For You by American Zen. I wrote that to my wife when we were having problems and played it for her hoping this would say whatever didn’t come out in our conversations and perhaps be able to repair our marriage.
Really interesting. Not sure I’m sold but a lot of ideas that will stick with me.
Blimey thanks to Rick Beato I have found a music messiah - really excellent content .
LEONARD COHEN is my favourite of all Time...he was treated badly back in the late 60s and 70s..you were a joke if you listened to him.
6:37 can't say anymore it's making me 😢❤him..A Humble Man...
Nope. Where I grew up the Radio Stations (only 2 for a long time) played everything from Calypso, Country, Pop, Reggae, Glen Miller etc. Many more stations now and the quality has gone down😢
Thanx, Maestro 🌹🌹🔥🌹🌹
I grew to appreciate Indian music from eating in Indian restaurants.Filling myself with delicious spiced curries always induced a kind of euphoric stupor which was only complemented by the hypnotizing Indian sounds on the restaurant’s playlist. I could drift away in reverie. The only trouble is whenever I hear Indian music it makes me hungry !
it is very interesting this separation of music into masculine and feminine. i never really looked at it this way but makes sense. i think i tend to like and play both. when i play ballads and smooth jazz and romantic music i guess that would be the feminine aspect( im a sucker for slow rnb jams) and i also love hard stuff too like tool , progressive funk, later miles davis which would be considered masculine music. interesting. i have never been ashamed of what i like to listen to probably because i have more sophisticated taste than the average person.
I'm a music guy so I've never thought this way. The music I like is a part of who I am. This may be different for others though. Interesting Video!
Discovering this channel, thanks to Rick Beato has been one of the best things to happen to me this year
I'm proud of all the music I collected throughout the years and can defend why I think it's great
I proudly admit I like Conway Twitty, George Jones and Hoyt Axton. I like Elton John, Cher and Michael Bolton. I like Black Sabbath, KISS and Jethro Tull. I like Marvin Gaye, Jackie Wilson and Sam Cooke. I like Nat King Cole, Frank Sinatra and Ella Fitzgerald. I like a lot of classical music including a lot of operas. I like some Jazz, some Blues, some Bluegrass, some Folk, some Funk, New Age, Space and World music. If you listen to enough of it you can find something you like in almost any kind of music.
I think shame for liking a certain kind of music is probably more about peer pressure. Especially as you're growing up and first getting into music, you want to fit in.
Back in the late 70s I was talking to a friend who had been along to lots of rock concerts with me over the previous five years, seeming to enjoy the music as much as I did. He said to me, "You know I never really liked any of that stuff. I really love punk."
When rock and prog was 'hip', he gave every impression of being into it. Then when punk became popular, he told everyone he never liked all that dinosaur stuff, but instead loved punk.
I'm very proud of all the music I love. It's Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Tchaikovsky and Erroll Garner and my own. I love all of this and both "feminine" and "masculine" music and tell it to everyone I know. I have no shame of music in me.
I grew up in the 60's/70's and taught myself acoustic guitar listening to my mother's John Denver's Greatest Hits album. Being a teenager in the 70's there was no way on earth I would admit that to my peers in jr. high and high school. A few years ago I recall reading somewhere how everybody loved to hate John Denver and yet he sold tens of millions of albums. Somebody was buying all those records, right? These days I can go down the RUclips rabbit hole and am amazed at how may guitarists did exactly what I did. We could all play his albums front-to-back but only now will admit it.
Never had this problem. Strange. But thanks for another view.
I revisit an NPR Tiny Desk Concert by Mt. Eerie (Phil Elverum) frequently on YT. It's a perfect example of what Ted is discussing here. An analysis of his inability to embrace and continue his relationship/marriage with the amazing Michelle Williams in the face of his lingering grief over the death of his first wife. It's very raw, unpolished music that seems ugly at first, but gels into an immersive experience as one gains knowledge of the context. I'm another Rick Beatto transplant and looking forward to listening to your entire catalog here as I create in my wood shop.
I am not ashamed. I like both types of music… country and western.
I’m never ever embarrassed or ashamed of the music I like - sure as a teen while in a phase where we’re overly self conscious but once we grow up I think that disappears
I think there's an interesting conversation to be had about why some people feel ashamed, or at the very least, uncomfortable about the music they like. I often feel this way myself, and for various reasons.
One reason is that discussing your music tastes with others can lead to some awkward and sometimes even heated conversations. That's why I try to avoid it whenever I can. It's especially the case when you admit to liking songs that are very different from what you usually hear. If I tell people that I primarily listen to classic rock and grunge, I'd feel weird telling them that I also sometimes listen to Taylor Swift and The Weeknd.
I like that you brought up the concept of masculine and feminine music, because elements of that do still exist. Being a male, I do tend to primarily listen to "masculine" genres like rock, and shy away from genres considered more "feminine" such as pop. I don't necessarily dislike that sort of music, but hearing it can be weird at times since it's different from what I'd typically be expected to listen to.
Being shamed by other people about your music choice also plays a role. For instance, my brother and I have drastically different music preferences, and we sometimes get into conflicts over it. He likes to say that my music taste is "boring" and uncool, and it definitely hurts because I know it wouldn't be worth it to show him some of my favorite songs and expect him to like them.
Another thing relating to my previous point is the Internet. It's impossible to discuss music online without running into someone who will _really_ dislike your opinion. If I went on social media and claimed to dislike BTS, Billie Eilish, Olivia Rodrigo, or some other artist with a large and devoted fandom, I may have to go into hiding. Any opinion you have is pretty much guaranteed to be a bad take.
Anyway, I'm glad I found this video because it's highly informative and definitely brings up some good points. Thank you!
One thing that I have started doing personally is I stopped negative commentary on music. Recently a friend made me a mixtape of their favorite songs (upon my request) and it was filled with Christian Rock, which is probably my least favorite genre (being atheist as well). However with having a positive mindset I have actually come to enjoy cd, and sing along to it in the car. To me there is no such thing as bad music, just music that's not for me right now.(someone else surely must enjoy it). I can still think about the arrangement, production, vocal quality, technique, emotions, chord changes. I don't see the reason to engage with bts and Billie eilish fans on Twitter on why their music sucks, when you could be engaging with people on the music you like. Especially considering how people perceive music is so personal.
@@liqa224 You have a point with positive commentary on music being important, and that is what I mainly do whenever I talk about music. I always try to explain why I like and don't like certain types of music, since you can get people to better understand your feelings about them that way compared to just saying "This kind of music sucks" or "This is the greatest artist ever and you'll never change my mind".
Going on social media and announcing my dislike of certain artists isn't actually something I do (I guess I was a little unclear on that in my original comment), but there should be a way to speak critically of music on the Internet without being shamed for having an opinion. Even speaking positively of, say, an album that is hated by an artist's general fanbase can get you shamed.
I'm the sort of person who would respectfully disagree with someone over their musical preference rather than get into a heated argument with them, but a lot of people would unfortunately prefer to choose the latter option. It's my fear of engaging with those people that makes me keep my opinions to myself. I just wish it wasn't that way.
This is interesting. I've never been ashamed of my listening choices. I was lucky enough to grow up around people with very good musical taste, and I was introduced to different styles all throughout my life. One minute I could be listening to Cheo Feliciano and the next minute I'm playing Delaney and Bonnie, followed by Cypress Hill and then some Electric Light Orchestra. Maybe some George Michael.
Maybe Mudvayne ??
hehe :D
This is really interesting.. I’ve seen and heard of this some but it’s not something I’ve ever experienced.. I’ve always been extremely vocal about the music I love. I was raised by a bluegrass musician in the foothills of north Georgia and love the music of my roots so so much but I’m also a metal head who deeply love progressive metal and black metal but I’m also a massive Beatles fan and a fan of 60’s music in general. John Lennon is massively important to me but I also have a low key obsession with Reba McIntyre.. I mean I guess I’m all over the place but I love all these things bc they bring different parts of myself to the fore and it feels good to sort of wallow in the different facets of one’s personality and life experience 🤷🏻♀️
Can I suggest artists from Winnipeg Manitoba Canadas most diverse small city. Please listen to Richard Inman. William Prince is also amazing. There is a number of Native American artists to listen here in Winnipeg
Never be ashamed of your music, the more ecclectic the taste the more the art and culture youre recieving. Everybody should taste every single thing, art is art, its timeless. Just like food, try every thing. some music is written by one demographic and another a different culture, i think its amazing, travel through everything and dont make the mistake of making an identity fir yourself, ego is a delusion. we are spectators, soul travellers experiencing the world of form, the forms come up then dissipate its all an illusion anyway, protect your emotions and never recieve shaming from anyone, its proiection of their own ignorance. I listen to everything from eminem to leonard cohen to patsy cline to my favourite, piano and jazz. Music for every mood ,we are very privileged. The more music the better, the more education the better. Ill listen to love songs even, just to be in touch with my dusty heart space. Music changes emotional states, its a form of magic. Never be ashamed of anything.
Never in my long life have I even considered being ashamed of listening to any music. I'm kind of shocked to hear this has been going on for thousands of years. People care too much about what others think of them.
Thought-provoking! I think it's a multi-faceted phenomenon but you touched on a key point. I don't think this tackles the whole issue and gives a fully comprehensive answer to this behavior but it's def one side of the coin, and a very valid way to look at it in my view.
Thanks for sharing your work in this video
I am reminded of that car scene in Tommy Boy where David Spade and Chris Farley are scrolling through the radio stations for music. Utube it. Funny.
John Travolta "Let her in". I confess!! The shame😂
It's a learned trait we discover from other people. It's another form of "othering" creating musical "tribes" Sneering at other peoples musical tastes begins early in school. Being in with the "cool kids" meant listening to a particular genre/artist - sometimes under sufferance! Racism in music is also deeply ingrained though many would never openly admit it (maybe not so much thee days in the current political climate). People often make assumptions about others based on their musical tastes. I'm certainly everyone has a musical "guilty pleasure"
Thank you. I completely agree
It's not that I'm ashamed of the music I listen to it's just that the other person doesn't get it. I'm someone that appreciates good music whether it's Frank Sinatra or Metallica or Coltrane or Jaco Pastorius. Play someone something like Yesterday When I Was Young by Roy Clark they go "Yeah yeah great can I hear some Kiss or Nirvana now???" "Yeah whatever." LOL.
It all hits a certain spot where the song resonates with people.
As someone who listened to Christian ska this morning, I appreciated this video.