I mean reality is when you are playing with veterans… if they think you are wrong, they will just ignore everything you have said and do what they want regardless of how well you demonstrate it. Like the assumption that everyone wants to learn, can learn or is interested in it, is a fallacy. We already know this is the case.
and that everyone learns in the same manner. Obvious example is that most pro players are as skilled as they are purely by just playing the game and thats what they trust to continue to get better. Some of them do personal reviews and get better. Some of them get coaching and get better. And within each of those styles theres sub-divisions
fully agree, coaches arent really held in high regards. when i watch interview from players they just trash coaching staff because they have no authority
That's a good way to put it. Many comments I've seen defending the players and attacking the coaches are based on the assumption that all the players want to learn but can't because the coach isn't good at teaching them. This is definitely not the case, especially when we consider personalities and veteran status. Humanoid is the perfect example of someone who genuinely doesn't seem interested in listening to a coach, just going by his public persona. Sometimes, veteran status can be a negative in some aspects as well.
The biggest factor here is clearly adding in coaches that are terrible at "coaching" different types of players. Blaming players for not doing what you are telling them is clearly a "child's mindset", they are clearly just not fit to be coach if they blame the players for not listening to them when they have clearly not explained it well enough in the first place. Fnatic have to be one of the teams that have only improved in one area for 4 years and that's picking good fights early game, while being worse or dogshit at everything else regarding macro, skirmish fighting timings, lane swaps, team fighting timings, understanding when their team comp is strong in the game, laning etcetc. The state of Fnatic is sad, LEC Finals this year was not won by G2 it was lost by Fnatic beating themself losing games where they were 10k gold+ ahead just sums up Fnatic this year perfectly.
Literally, as a sports coach and former teacher. If your team/ pupils are not getting what you are saying its not what you are saying, its how you are saying it. If people arent getting it, you need to find other ways which are simplified or creative for people to understand.
? They do get it, they just dont care, in some point Gaxx is correcting one playing to not take a camp, and his reply was its just a bad habit of mine haha and never changed it. What he is saying is that this year they will be much more strict and there will only be one warning.
the end of this video was really inspiring. Its wild how LS principles translate to real life... really one of the best people in the gaming scene. Thank you LS
I speak spanish fluently. I can assure u Ls, it is not a translation error. Those guys are like that, the Guy on the right is the owner of esportmaniacos, is it the weirdest show, they do it daily almost and they have very strong opinions about thing, being wrong almost all the time
You missed the whole point this time, Gaax was pointing out how players realized their mistakes but didnt care to change. There is even concrete examples he gives without names but you can imagine who it is. And the players response was literally its a bad habit of mine haha, never changed it. What he is saying is this year they will be much more strict and wont admit this attitudes.
It could be such as LS says, but I get the feeling that he's kind of picking and choosing his logic. Last year, when he talked about how the previous meta was so stagnant, the reasoning was that pro players just blindly (and lazily) copy others and reuse old picks. Shouldn't this same logic apply to certain pros for refusing to listen to the coach? In my opinion, it is a mix of both, and I wouldnt lay all thr blame at the foot of the coach. If the players really knew what they were doing (and ignored the coach, as he said that they did)... Shouldn't they have improved over the year?
I'm just a casual lol player, but i did played and coached basketball, and LS idea that coach need to be able to show to players by his own doing how to do something, or that he needs to be on the same level as they are in terms of the gameplay is ridiculous, especially when we talk about highest level of professional teams. Imagine Jordan ignoring whatever Jackson is telling him, because he can't dunk from free throw line. Also, a lot of you are comparing coaches to a teachers, and while that could be comparable if we talk about school team coaches or some small amateur league coaches, when we get to the coaching of a highest level teams, with big salaries, multiple big corp sponsorships etc, there's a lot of differences to teachers job.
As a teacher i can tell you that if some one does not whant to learn he wont no matter how much you try. And afcorse some people are just to dum but i asume this isnt the case here.
@@ASSASSIN79100Yes he probably shouldn’t have said it, but it’s also probably super frustrating for him because ultimately he is being labelled as a bad coach… when in reality that might not be the case.
Why do "professionals" who are supposed to be working on a JOB worth a 6 figure salary need to be babied like they're in "high school". As long as the right information was supplied, its up to the employees to use it, and if they don't, after a few times of fucking it up give them a written warning, then fire them if they do it again. These "professional" players have proven themselves to be incompetent people.
they may be professionals with jobs but theyre still very young, and if theyre at a pro level barely into their 20s they probably are riding on natural talent their whole lives and never had a positive experience of being taught by an authority figure. But as explained in the video its not about being babied, its a matter of everyone responding differently. Even in conventional sports and jobs a lot of people will dismiss input because they dont respect the person giving it, maybe thats well founded and maybe it isnt, but it still matters.
@@booperdee2 People pretend that you can't do this in a business setting and then there are massive subreddits where people write about how they "followed" the letter of the law and just ignored their superior completely, but in a way where the superior can't really find flaw with it. So I guess most coaches have a leadership/respect problem, as players would follow you if they respected you.
@ManicRipper2 As a disclaimer, I've worked with several Tier 1 and 2 esports orgs - in content, to be more precise - and had many conversations during lunchtime with management teams who had encountered the same problem of having to baby around pros. When I started dangling in the esports industry, I held the same stance as what you wrote here, but after several internal dramas I realized it's not as easy. The problem with written warnings and firings is very simple: 1) What do you do if the pro ignores you but performs well? Jojo is a pretty good example here that highlights that performance > problems. If C9 had qualified for Worlds and maybe even reached Quarters, do you really think we'd have all this drama of him being late? Of course not, it only comes up during a slip up, and when monetary gain is at play. In both cases you need something very solid (like 40+ counts of being late), otherwise you'll lose quite a lot of money because you can't just terminate a contract with no consequences. 2) There's very few people within management teams that can actually discern which information is "right" and which is "wrong", especially when it's a dynamic game such as League. Let's take Oscar's situation of dying to Kalista here. Sure, it might look bad on paper that he dies (idk, I haven't seen the game) when warned beforehand but based on the game state he could argue it was important for him to risk pushing the lane because he believed that tiny additional XP lead would be beneficial later on. Even if it's wrong, good luck arguing about whether the provided information was right or not in courts if the fired player decided to sue you, which also tarnishes your reputation (you can Google "poisoning the well fallacy"). It's pretty much always bad. 3) Pros speak with each other, and their decision of which team to join is always influenced by those conversations. As an esports org, there's three ways to get good players - money (self-explanatory), reputation as a team (G2, T1, and TSM are great examples here - look at TSM's hirings as soon as their reputation went to shit), and pros speaking highly of you. Money is often tight, reputation is really hard to come by, which leaves us with trying to appease players, wait out the contracts of unmanageable players in hopes of replacing them with someone easier to work with. A bit counterintuitive at times, but it's literally what happens.
Normally I would point the blame towards the coach rather than the players if a concept can't be adapted properly, but the fact that this has been going on in Fnatic for atleast two years just speaks volumes about the players' reluctancy to learn.
As a teacher, I think a big thing is educating people is respect, both in having to earn the respect of your students, and you being able to respect your students. You can have all of the theory and thought processes, but none of it matters if the students don’t respect what you say, and if you don’t respect how your students think.
New coach in. Having to live up to yamatocannon. Inheriting all the same problems, but with worse players / sidegrades. The cards arent in his favor, but you still have a decend hand, and you have to learn how to play it. If you Truly believe that the players refuse to learn and are sabotaging you, then my gurss is you: A. bench the player to bring in new blood to change the group dynamic more conducive to learning. B. Approach yoir players with a different phylosophy on practice and teaching (this will need experiments. But current thing isnt working, so something has to change). C. You quit. You realize you are inneffectual, maybe its the players, maybe its the managment, maybe its the inability to separate humanoid+razork because of the massive contracts. But the responsible move is to not let the org waste your time, and in return allow the org to coursecorrect too. But thats a hard decision to make, especially in todays job market.
Wow that coach being 23 is wild. Not gonna be shitting on young'ns but for a coach, experience is everything. No wonder they dont get a good coaching experience.
Some people are just naturally good teachers. Most other people have to study 3 years at an university to become a good teacher. Some people are never able to become good teachers. I think gaax should try studying.
I may be wrong but if remember correctly Gaax was brought onto fnafic as a sorta freind for Oscsr as he was young and leaving spain for the first time. Does make you wonder what other qualification he had to join a team as big as fnatic
7:35 I wouldn't take his answers too seriously. It's not like it's a full thought out interview. Edit: Also it's a 90 minute interview with few sentences each. I doubt the translation covers anything.
if u are to blame then feel shitty all you want if u get called out.... i usually like LSs takes but that video was not my cup of tea. i feel like we dont do that more, like for example football coaches call out certain players or offense/defensive players naturally when they fucked up. players get treated like deities until they get sacked...
14:30 Not talking about you, but immature people will experience socratic questioning as toxic, because it forces them to voice facts that they don't want to recognize.
I m sory LS, but are we talking about >proffesionnal< players or just students? Didn't you made a video way back into why being top elo doesn't mean you can be a good pro player ?
I am sorry, but if you are a coach (or just a teacher) It is your responsibility to adapt to your students needs, no matter the age or occupation. Of course there are times where a student of mine would just refuse to learn no matter the approach but it is in cases where they just do not want to study a subject in general. But they are players that spent ungoldy amount of time to play professionaly so I am doubtfull that there is no interest in playing better. Also I do not understand what the second point has to do with anything discussed.
Yea of course just because you are a high elo player doesnt mean you can be a good pro. Because solo q and pro are completely different. LS has even said before that it’s sad that there’s no other way to demonstrate player skill outside of solo queue for teams to recruit players, because ultimately everything stems from there. Plus many players get to Challenger through many means not all of them are directly applicable to pro play. Or help facilitate growth in the pro scene
@@jankomak12 in a profesionnal setting, you must act like a profesionnal. If you can't learn and keep doing the same mistakes in two different tournament: you should be out because you are wasting the team and coach's time. We ain't talking about students here. Just like in any profesionnal career: you are always learning, yet nobody expect you to be babytalked to grow like a student. You are being paid to perform
A player critizing a coach that exposes his players, who knew. This react is just self-preservation instinct kicking in, that's why the west is so fucked right now
LS i freaking love your content and your insight (this vid included genuinely) but holy smokes man stop cutting APA off mid sentence, man's trying to have a dialogue.
To be fair to the coach, everyone but Jun seems to be very low IQ wise. Their behavior in "Behind the Scenes" videos just scream incompetence. When all comes to all, I think it's a two-way problem though. The coach is bad, but taught them theoretically. Players DID understand theoretically, but are too incompetent to realize which situation they are in, to correctly implement it in practice. Just look at when they draft scaling comps, of course the players understand theoretically what this means, but in-game their limited cognitive abilities are so strained that they end up comforming to their instinctive and normal play.
@@CrujiAlexX the number/length of the excerpts has literally nothing to do with the quality of the translation. Someone can transcribe the entire interview while completely destroying the original meaning, and someone can take only a few important quotes and translate them perfectly.
I mean reality is when you are playing with veterans… if they think you are wrong, they will just ignore everything you have said and do what they want regardless of how well you demonstrate it.
Like the assumption that everyone wants to learn, can learn or is interested in it, is a fallacy. We already know this is the case.
and that everyone learns in the same manner. Obvious example is that most pro players are as skilled as they are purely by just playing the game and thats what they trust to continue to get better. Some of them do personal reviews and get better. Some of them get coaching and get better. And within each of those styles theres sub-divisions
fully agree, coaches arent really held in high regards. when i watch interview from players they just trash coaching staff because they have no authority
yup, just look at all the delusional iron players who think they should not be in iron xD
That's a good way to put it. Many comments I've seen defending the players and attacking the coaches are based on the assumption that all the players want to learn but can't because the coach isn't good at teaching them. This is definitely not the case, especially when we consider personalities and veteran status. Humanoid is the perfect example of someone who genuinely doesn't seem interested in listening to a coach, just going by his public persona. Sometimes, veteran status can be a negative in some aspects as well.
The biggest factor here is clearly adding in coaches that are terrible at "coaching" different types of players. Blaming players for not doing what you are telling them is clearly a "child's mindset", they are clearly just not fit to be coach if they blame the players for not listening to them when they have clearly not explained it well enough in the first place. Fnatic have to be one of the teams that have only improved in one area for 4 years and that's picking good fights early game, while being worse or dogshit at everything else regarding macro, skirmish fighting timings, lane swaps, team fighting timings, understanding when their team comp is strong in the game, laning etcetc. The state of Fnatic is sad, LEC Finals this year was not won by G2 it was lost by Fnatic beating themself losing games where they were 10k gold+ ahead just sums up Fnatic this year perfectly.
Hope that lecture does get uploaded
Ayy congrats on the Yonsei lecture man! Looking forward to it.
Literally, as a sports coach and former teacher. If your team/ pupils are not getting what you are saying its not what you are saying, its how you are saying it.
If people arent getting it, you need to find other ways which are simplified or creative for people to understand.
? They do get it, they just dont care, in some point Gaxx is correcting one playing to not take a camp, and his reply was its just a bad habit of mine haha and never changed it. What he is saying is that this year they will be much more strict and there will only be one warning.
Good to see you fellow adult, glad you don't blame your students for not being able to learn, everyone learns differently.
the end of this video was really inspiring. Its wild how LS principles translate to real life... really one of the best people in the gaming scene. Thank you LS
I speak spanish fluently. I can assure u Ls, it is not a translation error. Those guys are like that, the Guy on the right is the owner of esportmaniacos, is it the weirdest show, they do it daily almost and they have very strong opinions about thing, being wrong almost all the time
You missed the whole point this time, Gaax was pointing out how players realized their mistakes but didnt care to change. There is even concrete examples he gives without names but you can imagine who it is. And the players response was literally its a bad habit of mine haha, never changed it. What he is saying is this year they will be much more strict and wont admit this attitudes.
@@pedrofornell4915 You said he missed the point, just to explain that you were actually the one who missed the point. Hilarious.
@ you don’t even speak Spanish. And if you do, you are dumb enough to not understand.
It could be such as LS says, but I get the feeling that he's kind of picking and choosing his logic. Last year, when he talked about how the previous meta was so stagnant, the reasoning was that pro players just blindly (and lazily) copy others and reuse old picks. Shouldn't this same logic apply to certain pros for refusing to listen to the coach? In my opinion, it is a mix of both, and I wouldnt lay all thr blame at the foot of the coach. If the players really knew what they were doing (and ignored the coach, as he said that they did)... Shouldn't they have improved over the year?
I'm just a casual lol player, but i did played and coached basketball, and LS idea that coach need to be able to show to players by his own doing how to do something, or that he needs to be on the same level as they are in terms of the gameplay is ridiculous, especially when we talk about highest level of professional teams. Imagine Jordan ignoring whatever Jackson is telling him, because he can't dunk from free throw line.
Also, a lot of you are comparing coaches to a teachers, and while that could be comparable if we talk about school team coaches or some small amateur league coaches, when we get to the coaching of a highest level teams, with big salaries, multiple big corp sponsorships etc, there's a lot of differences to teachers job.
If you can't teach people cross play when you've explained it ''thousands of times'' you're probably just not that great of a coach.
As a teacher i can tell you that if some one does not whant to learn he wont no matter how much you try.
And afcorse some people are just to dum but i asume this isnt the case here.
@@stefankatsarov5806 It goes both ways, but saying that publicly as a coach is not a good look.
That is such a uneducated comment its crazy. If someone does not want to learn he wont learn.
@@ASSASSIN79100Yes he probably shouldn’t have said it, but it’s also probably super frustrating for him because ultimately he is being labelled as a bad coach… when in reality that might not be the case.
@@Mizzurani then as a coach you either bench them or figure out why they dont want to learn so you can fix it.
Why do "professionals" who are supposed to be working on a JOB worth a 6 figure salary need to be babied like they're in "high school".
As long as the right information was supplied, its up to the employees to use it, and if they don't, after a few times of fucking it up give them a written warning, then fire them if they do it again. These "professional" players have proven themselves to be incompetent people.
they may be professionals with jobs but theyre still very young, and if theyre at a pro level barely into their 20s they probably are riding on natural talent their whole lives and never had a positive experience of being taught by an authority figure. But as explained in the video its not about being babied, its a matter of everyone responding differently. Even in conventional sports and jobs a lot of people will dismiss input because they dont respect the person giving it, maybe thats well founded and maybe it isnt, but it still matters.
@@booperdee2 Oscar is the only player that's younger than the coach btw Noah is the same age and Humanoid, Razork and Jun are all older
@@booperdee2 People pretend that you can't do this in a business setting and then there are massive subreddits where people write about how they "followed" the letter of the law and just ignored their superior completely, but in a way where the superior can't really find flaw with it.
So I guess most coaches have a leadership/respect problem, as players would follow you if they respected you.
@ManicRipper2 As a disclaimer, I've worked with several Tier 1 and 2 esports orgs - in content, to be more precise - and had many conversations during lunchtime with management teams who had encountered the same problem of having to baby around pros. When I started dangling in the esports industry, I held the same stance as what you wrote here, but after several internal dramas I realized it's not as easy. The problem with written warnings and firings is very simple:
1) What do you do if the pro ignores you but performs well? Jojo is a pretty good example here that highlights that performance > problems. If C9 had qualified for Worlds and maybe even reached Quarters, do you really think we'd have all this drama of him being late? Of course not, it only comes up during a slip up, and when monetary gain is at play. In both cases you need something very solid (like 40+ counts of being late), otherwise you'll lose quite a lot of money because you can't just terminate a contract with no consequences.
2) There's very few people within management teams that can actually discern which information is "right" and which is "wrong", especially when it's a dynamic game such as League. Let's take Oscar's situation of dying to Kalista here. Sure, it might look bad on paper that he dies (idk, I haven't seen the game) when warned beforehand but based on the game state he could argue it was important for him to risk pushing the lane because he believed that tiny additional XP lead would be beneficial later on. Even if it's wrong, good luck arguing about whether the provided information was right or not in courts if the fired player decided to sue you, which also tarnishes your reputation (you can Google "poisoning the well fallacy"). It's pretty much always bad.
3) Pros speak with each other, and their decision of which team to join is always influenced by those conversations. As an esports org, there's three ways to get good players - money (self-explanatory), reputation as a team (G2, T1, and TSM are great examples here - look at TSM's hirings as soon as their reputation went to shit), and pros speaking highly of you. Money is often tight, reputation is really hard to come by, which leaves us with trying to appease players, wait out the contracts of unmanageable players in hopes of replacing them with someone easier to work with.
A bit counterintuitive at times, but it's literally what happens.
@@ExeLietuva thanks for the insight
Normally I would point the blame towards the coach rather than the players if a concept can't be adapted properly, but the fact that this has been going on in Fnatic for atleast two years just speaks volumes about the players' reluctancy to learn.
As a teacher, I think a big thing is educating people is respect, both in having to earn the respect of your students, and you being able to respect your students. You can have all of the theory and thought processes, but none of it matters if the students don’t respect what you say, and if you don’t respect how your students think.
New coach in. Having to live up to yamatocannon. Inheriting all the same problems, but with worse players / sidegrades. The cards arent in his favor, but you still have a decend hand, and you have to learn how to play it.
If you Truly believe that the players refuse to learn and are sabotaging you, then my gurss is you:
A. bench the player to bring in new blood to change the group dynamic more conducive to learning.
B. Approach yoir players with a different phylosophy on practice and teaching (this will need experiments. But current thing isnt working, so something has to change).
C. You quit. You realize you are inneffectual, maybe its the players, maybe its the managment, maybe its the inability to separate humanoid+razork because of the massive contracts. But the responsible move is to not let the org waste your time, and in return allow the org to coursecorrect too. But thats a hard decision to make, especially in todays job market.
Need that lecture recorded !!
Wow that coach being 23 is wild. Not gonna be shitting on young'ns but for a coach, experience is everything. No wonder they dont get a good coaching experience.
Some people are just naturally good teachers.
Most other people have to study 3 years at an university to become a good teacher.
Some people are never able to become good teachers.
I think gaax should try studying.
Sounds like he has no buy in from players and they just ignore him. So he probably shouldn’t be a coach if he can’t get any buy in from the players.
I may be wrong but if remember correctly Gaax was brought onto fnafic as a sorta freind for Oscsr as he was young and leaving spain for the first time. Does make you wonder what other qualification he had to join a team as big as fnatic
From what I know he just bought as personal coach for oscar since they work together in academy
poor apa cant talk without ls screaming like a child
fr so annoying
7:35 I wouldn't take his answers too seriously. It's not like it's a full thought out interview.
Edit: Also it's a 90 minute interview with few sentences each. I doubt the translation covers anything.
I mean i understand the frustration, no team has ever been so inconsistent over the course of a year
Some Professors in college/grad scoll are so deep in their work that they cant teach effectively or think certain ideas are too simple
if u are to blame then feel shitty all you want if u get called out.... i usually like LSs takes but that video was not my cup of tea. i feel like we dont do that more, like for example football coaches call out certain players or offense/defensive players naturally when they fucked up. players get treated like deities until they get sacked...
14:30 Not talking about you, but immature people will experience socratic questioning as toxic, because it forces them to voice facts that they don't want to recognize.
If you do end up recording the lecture for the university, assuming it is in korean, will you have subtitles or should we just use auto generated?
UPLOAD THE LECTURE PLEASE!
Does anybody know what interview LS is speaking about at the 13 minute mark?
Homie sounding like Ten Hag
always thought FNC are EU team, or British but looks like it's Spanish. On every structural level they are Spanish. Strange they didn't pull MDK thing
There is a good translation in fnatic reddit, dont just take whatever translation out of context.
I m sory LS, but are we talking about >proffesionnal< players or just students?
Didn't you made a video way back into why being top elo doesn't mean you can be a good pro player ?
I am sorry, but if you are a coach (or just a teacher) It is your responsibility to adapt to your students needs, no matter the age or occupation. Of course there are times where a student of mine would just refuse to learn no matter the approach but it is in cases where they just do not want to study a subject in general. But they are players that spent ungoldy amount of time to play professionaly so I am doubtfull that there is no interest in playing better.
Also I do not understand what the second point has to do with anything discussed.
Yea of course just because you are a high elo player doesnt mean you can be a good pro. Because solo q and pro are completely different. LS has even said before that it’s sad that there’s no other way to demonstrate player skill outside of solo queue for teams to recruit players, because ultimately everything stems from there.
Plus many players get to Challenger through many means not all of them are directly applicable to pro play. Or help facilitate growth in the pro scene
@@jankomak12 in a profesionnal setting, you must act like a profesionnal. If you can't learn and keep doing the same mistakes in two different tournament: you should be out because you are wasting the team and coach's time.
We ain't talking about students here. Just like in any profesionnal career: you are always learning, yet nobody expect you to be babytalked to grow like a student. You are being paid to perform
if this was LEC 2nd seed, imagine the coaching and players on other teams that failed to qualify... league of legends pro scene is a scam
Fnatic with cancer culture and environment? Impossible, never heard that before :)
A player critizing a coach that exposes his players, who knew. This react is just self-preservation instinct kicking in, that's why the west is so fucked right now
LS i freaking love your content and your insight (this vid included genuinely) but holy smokes man stop cutting APA off mid sentence, man's trying to have a dialogue.
These players don’t respect Gax and it’s unfortunate. Get rid of them for younger players who are willing to listen and get better. 😊
L ahh S
To be fair to the coach, everyone but Jun seems to be very low IQ wise. Their behavior in "Behind the Scenes" videos just scream incompetence. When all comes to all, I think it's a two-way problem though. The coach is bad, but taught them theoretically. Players DID understand theoretically, but are too incompetent to realize which situation they are in, to correctly implement it in practice. Just look at when they draft scaling comps, of course the players understand theoretically what this means, but in-game their limited cognitive abilities are so strained that they end up comforming to their instinctive and normal play.
can LS stop having adhd and listen to apa
this interview is just so badly translated xd
an 1:43 hour interview translated into 7 lines of text hahaha
@@CrujiAlexX the number/length of the excerpts has literally nothing to do with the quality of the translation.
Someone can transcribe the entire interview while completely destroying the original meaning, and someone can take only a few important quotes and translate them perfectly.
Listening to anything apa says is crazy. All bro does is run it down
Disband Fnatic
first
1 major problem , why is LS talking about skill when he is hardstuck plat and pays to get boosted?
But he isn’t.
Such a plat hardstuck he beat t1 academy mid multiple times😢
@@removeprotos6683 ofc he did , who was his duo? prolly a challenger pro who got payed , at least someone is doing his job lol
@@thecoldflame020 check out his streams and you will see i am right
@@removeprotos6683 Link vod