Working through my Into The Radius video, you guys were right, it's awesome and I have a lot to say. What other kinds of VR content do you want to see?
How do you record PC VR games in such a cool way, wide FOV, no shaking, etc.? This really helps to show VR games on a flat screen better than even game developers do. It "sells" the VR experience better to those who are not VR fans. Please write down the methods that you use.
I don't have any secret sauce really but I do spend a lot of time testing and playing with game settings before I capture so I appreciate that a lot. Every game is a little different so I try to find the best viewing experience that conveys what its like in the headset. A big part of it is finding ways to capture with wide FOV since I capture for the ultrawide aspect ratio which definitely helps the motion feel smoother.
If VR was traditional gaming, I feel like we're still in the 70s. One day games like Half-Life Alyx and Boneworks will look like Space Invaders and Pong.
Part of the boneworks jank is that Ford gets tired, which is never really mentioned or brought up. But hold something heavy like the block early in the museum for the block and button puzzle. Eventually his arms will sag a bit, then sudden burst of energy before returning to normal, then sag again. He does this a lot. Let a crablet grab you and pry it off your face. One hand. If another gets you in less than 4 seconds, it'll be harder. After that then you'll need 2 hands. Then it's hard for 2 hands, and on that 5th time with less than 3 seconds in between each, you might not be able to get it off.. This created a lot of the difficulty, but it also did a lot of the jank.
The crablet thing just makes sense for gameplay, cuz without it there'd be no consequence for the repeated failure to dodge/hit it away, but the heavy objects bouncing definitely feels janky
The vision Stress Level Zero has for the bone games is that they want to build up a consistent set of logic and rules with physics and such that can almost mimic real life so that someone can just throw on a headset and the game just makes sense and works exactly how you’d expect it to. It’s no where near that yet and they know that but it’s a great start and these games are more of a proof of concept/stepping stones and a way of funding their further research and development. They also hope that these projects will push other bigger studios to push the boundaries as well. Although these games do have a few problems that aren’t just a limitation of technology I think they are a great start to making these systems less janky and more widespread.
I think we have even seen that with things like Blade & Sorcery. I think they refined some of the concepts in the SLZ games enough that I don't mind them as much. I still can't climb up ledges but I find it generally easier to move around.
Honestly, I think I have the complete opposite outlook when it comes to immersion in VR. I think the difference between the two methods is the balance of feedback vs control. In the floating hands method you have complete control of your body at the expense of feedback and interaction with the world. With this method there is never a disconnect between your body and your VR body. Where bonelab's method differs is it gives you increased feedback and interaction with the world BUT you lose some control of your body. With this method the world feels much more realistic. You interact more authentically in the game but of course not always in real life. For me, when I feel like I'm not a part of the VR world it breaks down my immersion much more than my VR body not being true to my real body. For others I suppose the feeling of being disconnected from their body breaks down the immersion on a greater scale than the world being less realistic. For me Boneworks was multitudes more immersive than Alyx and honestly I just love boneworks to bits. One thing I am realizing is that VR is going to be much more complicated than I would've though. To make a VR world that gives complete feedback will probably only be achievable by something that interacts neurally, because how would you create something like jumping into a wall with just hardware? Anyways, I commend Stress Level Zero for their work in Boneworks and I hope people keep pushing the boundaries in VR because that's the only way it will grow!
I equate this period of VR to early FPS games on console but so much more complicated. Since your involvement is so much more active. I think opinions about the best control methods are a lot stronger. Things like boneworks might not even be playable for some people because of how disorienting it can get, but for others, it's the preferred way to experience VR. Very long road ahead for VR.
Regarding the issue of immersion with hands. I guess that the duckling effect may be at play here, where the option with which you initially had your first experience remained the most “correct” for your perception. So trying to accept reality with a new vision of hands will can disrupt perception (by analogy with teleport after locomotion or vice versa). Was Boneworks your first serious experience before HL Alyx or not?
Playing Half Life Alyx I didn’t even notice I was only hands. The game was just that immersive. I think I agree that different video games can benefit from it. Like Skyrim or Fallout VR especially if you want to see your armor and such. Great video.
I'm dying to get to the bottom of the HLA / Boneworks divide. That seems like the big split between VR enthusiasts and most people seem to end up on one side or the other. It's fascinating, but you are right to each their own
@@bonezzVR my biggest problem with hla is the lineriar design and lack of melle. But I also really don’t like floating hands so that’s another reason. Hla is still a very impressive game tho.
Climbing was where bike works fell apart. I can't tell you how many ledges I fell off of because I couldn't get by dumb legs over the top of a small step.
I think the issue with Boneworks is less the lack of the tech to support full body simulation and more the developer leaning so hard on it. Cheating things like having your legs support the upper body while climbing might sound counter intuitive since you're not doing that action IRL while playing the game. But you CAN'T do that action IRL. Avoiding situations where that disconnect arises or including adaptations like automated reverse IK to "ease" the character model onto a ledge would make Boneworks feel SO much better. Yes, it would compromise their intent a bit. And I also think full body tracking will happen quickly at a consumer level, so eventually their vision will be better realized. But if they had just exercised SOME restraint instead of going all in on the concept, I think the game would work better overall without sacrificing it's unique identity. Bonelab tried to make it easier by incorporating characters with different physicality. But you end up with the same issues where levels are designed for gameplay you can't physically do IRL while also demanding that you do those actions IRL or the game breaks. It's not bad tech or lack of support, it's just bad game design done in the pursuit of avoiding compromise, when that very compromise would have made the game a better experience.
So well said! On my HLA video some of the minor push back was that the design in it feels dated next to things like Boneworks but I personally think that Valve in all their wisdom exercised restraint to get the best, most intuitive and immersive experience. There are mods for it that add in jumping and a physics based crowbar weapon similar to Boneworks that both imo make it a worse and less immersive game. I have to hand it to Stress Level Zero for how forward thinking they were in some of their design choice but the number of times I would just close the game because I was struggling to do the most basic things was infuriating.
@@bonezzVR Yeah, SLZ is for SURE on the cutting edge of VR, but they're clearly in-experienced developers that are putting their concept ahead of executing on a well-realized game. I love boneworks and bonelab. I think they are incredible games that have done countless things to push VR forward as a medium. But they are clumsy and obnoxious to play unless you know all the tricks to work around the full body simulation. It's simply not ground enough of a game to be intuitive and I think a future title with the exact same physics but levels designed for humans IRL would be more fun to play while also demonstrating the insane potential of VR.
after all i think bonelabs and boneworks is more a proof of concept rather than a ''game'' but i found both of it really impressive for the time it got out. no hate ur video is pretty accurate and i understand some of ur points
No offense taken I'm actually really glad everyone is being civil and having good faith conversation about things for the most part. I want this channel to be a place where everyone can share and discuss whether they agree or not, all opinions welcome.
Thanks for the video, i thought i was the only person who preferred hands over full body. Full body never feels right to me. I like the idea of it, it just never works how it be should or how my brain thinks it should
Hey, a fellow floating hand enjoyer. I feel like most people prefer the full body rig, but it definitely breaks the immersion for me. Gloves (or robotic hands) help me a lot too because cheap-looking skin takes me out of things too.
I believe full arm works when you got trackers attached to your arms and the games IK is able to predict the correct position with that extra tracker. But if you got arms, you also got a body, so that'd be more tracckers required. HL:alys did it best tbh ;>
Funnily enough, Boneworks was my first ever VR experience, and I freaking loved it. I thought the Player Rig, physics based nature and how that's utilized in the campaign was absolutely amazing. Of course I had problems performing basic tasks at first, but as I kept playing and got better, I kept enjoying the game more and more. Boneworks was the most immersive thing I had ever had the fortune of experiencing while playing video games, and it really inspired me. I came out of Boneworks feeling dissatisfied with most VR Titles, knowing they're not using the medium to it's fullest potential. As a game designer/developer I can definitely see where you're coming from. I think Boneworks completely reimagines what VR is and how it is utilized, which can lead to major frustration for experienced VR users. I think playing Boneworks as my first ever VR Game lead to me loving this game so much, even though it's discouraged by the developers.
Bonelab though, that's a totally different story. The campaign was short, linear and disappointing, and the weird new physics rig with the body remapping just feels awful. I hate when my brain is expecting everything to be in world space, like in boneworks, every other VR Game, and surprise, the real world, but suddenly my in-game hands don't match up with my real hands anymore and move at different rates. Like isn't the whole premise of Marrow that it has really good interaction between the player and THE ENVIRONMENT? I don't care about if I can touch my skin and it matches up in game, I want to play the game, interact with the environment using my hands, which are in world space.
Out of headset boneworks looks amazing because they put a bunch of post processing on it on the highest graphics, doesn't look this good in headset sadly
@bonezzVR it would definitely really only be for the hardcore, but if you're able to get a set of quality trackers for like 30 bucks? The casual might be more inclined to try it. Even if they don't use it every time they play
it's not about price for most bro, I'm a hardcore VR user and I want nothing to do with putting on more things to be able to play a game. Half Life Alyx just works for me, and honestly that's all I need. Boneworks isn't good enough for me to want to do all of that. I'll just play Alyx mods.
I agree with everything you said but I still love boneworks and games with full body I think those games are a lot of fun puppetering a digital body leads to a lot of funny moments where you see frustration getting your arm stuck on something or forgetting that your vr legs exist and bumping into something while climbing I think its fun Blade and sorcery works well with full body too since its really over the top with its violence and doesnt take itself completly seriously However for fully immersive experiences or proper polished game releases that want mass appeal floating hands are a better choice depending on what the game is about Half life alyx wouldnt benefit from full body no one wants to watch this alyx model weirdly contort itself Thats completly immersion breaking
VR still in it's infancy and I think it's going to be a very long time before full body makes sense to the average consumer. People playing things like Boneworks and B&S are the enthusiasts and I think for the most part we are willing to look past a lot of the problems and see the future potential. That said I think the quality of life tweaks to the formula that B&S makes are game changing. I find that a much more enjoyable experience despite similar challenges.
Floating hands are an immediate turn-off for me. I'm not buying any game that only offers floating hands. It's fine if they give it as an option, but not as the only option.
I dont know about Boneworks but in bonelab you can make your legs tuck with the thumbstick while climbing making it easier. With blade and sorcery nomad and the normal one your legs automatically tuck up when your off ground and they go onto any object infront of you to simulate grip and yes sometimes looking down to see your character having his legs tucked up as they switch between being on the wall and not it breaks immersion but its still good in gameplay since you dont get stuck.
In the end, it is a hen/egg problem. Full body tracking is quite niche, even among VR enthusiasts right now. Hence no incentive for SLZ to grace us with FBT support in the Bone games. However, if those games would support them, a lot of the thank would resolve itself. Thinking a bit further, just including some haptic feedback and game-side support for it into the trackers one straps onto the body would make this into a league of its own. But I think SLZ did not really do anyone a favor by not including FBT support in Boneworks. And we shouldn't even look to the floaty hands games to include FBT support anytime soon. So this overall problem is actually a bit of a vicious cycle that needs breaking.
(note i have only played bonelab but i know it's similar enough) it feels like the developers and audience got so blind sided by how new and fresh it was (seeing as vr was in a more early state) that they looked over the inherent flaws of the full body system from SLZ. In most games your body (if visible) follows where you hands go, streching and moving to get there (ITR, B&S, Etc.) but the Bone Games have it where your hands are controlled by the virtual body, even with menus it's crazy. but the developers can't see that their vision of this being the standard is inherently flawed. and they somehow make it worse in bonelab with recent updates. They "updated" the body to be more realistic with little baby punching upclose and not being able to rotate your wrists all the way, constantly reminding you that you are controlling this avatar, and it's just dumb cause we have bodies IRL with their own limitations. SLZ keeps trying to push this with the marrow engine and i haven't seen a single other game adopt this system (chronic rambler)
I love ramblers, the channel is still new enough that I read all the blogs people leave haha. Well said though. I'd be curious to hear the devs talk more about their philosophy on these games. You really have to hand it to them for taking things as far as they have and Boneworks absolutely inspired other games that took parts and tried to make them more manageable.
It’ll never get good if they don’t develop it. SLZ hasn’t made the engine licensable yet as it isn’t ready for any sort of mass adaptation so there is no way a single other game could currently adopt this system. I think it’s more of an acquired taste currently though as the bone games are definitely flawed and not for everyone.
110% agree with you on this one, tried so many time to finish this game but cant bare playing more then an hour at a time end always ended unistalling it for space on my small ssd. Didnt even tried Bonelabs. The climbing in Bonework really let me down. The only thing i really enjoyed was the Zombie game mode. The guns in this game feel really good. In my mind the best body control ive seen is in Blade and sorcery.
I'm definitely a fan of Boneworks, but I also agree with your analysis. It's more like a physics experience than a game -- and I loved it for that, but I think your expectations have to be in the right place. I had lots of time (Played during the lockdown) to kill, so I didn't mind that it wasn't plug and play and happily spent lots of time in it but I can totally understand your frustrations. In particular -- I really agree mostly that for a lot of games, your entire body isn't necessary for the gameplay to be immersive. I'm playing Fallout 4 VR right now with lots of mods and one of them FRIK is a full body mod which has an arms-only mode but it isn't really implemented all that well but I wish it was because most of the time I don't even need my full body to enjoy the experience and often it gets in the way/breaks immersion because it's not responsive enough -- think jumping in the game and have my legs go entirely stiff in the air lmao. Great vid!
I definitely don't want to deter people from playing it. I think the work this team does is important but I think good honest conversations about this stuff is just as important. We are in the equivalent VR equivalent of the 8-bit era, this all has a long way to go.
this is all a really good take, i played labworks (a port of boneworks in bonelabs) i never really had this problem when i was playing it but i was really used to it by the time i played it, but as a first vr game or a first full body vr game I can fully understand all the critsism
Boneworks is my favorite VR game, so to answer your question when I first played Boneworks I just felt like I was one with the simulation like I could go and do anything. I felt more present in Boneworks than I have in any other VR game. And even though I love Boneworks I agree about your opinion in this video. There is a disconnect between your body irl and in game but for me that only happens really when climbing, that in my opinion is where the jank of Boneworks really shows. There is only areas where jank also shows but it’s mainly on climbing for me. But in the future I hope more VR games are physics based because after playing Boneworks every other VR game feels shallow in comparison, like I’m just gliding across the floor not actually walking.
Yo man, great video! Also, idk if you've heard, but SLZ developers have shared plans to integrate the quest 3's upper body tracking into their marrow engine
I have not heard thats super cool. I'm looking forward to checking out Bonelab now with Boneworks so fresh in my mind. I haven't checked it out since launch.
Absolutely agree, I hated playing boneworks, it felt more of a chore simulator than a game. But for me there was more, I also disliked how the enemies looked, sounded and the hitting feedback, I also didnt quite like how the world looked, yes yes the story is youre in VR, but it just felt like such a barren wasteland of nothing. Im guessing they were kinda going for a cyber-portal-ish experience that was surreal. Theres a world on VRChat called Organism(that map deserves its own video btw). That world has the surreal vibe down to a T. But Boneworks..literally nothing gave me joy other than shooting guns, but the enemies werent fun so that also wasnt fun.
Exactly! It may be amazing on the technical level, but overall, the presentation is just awful. Boneworks gives such empty, subliminal and haunting experience, that its janky mechanics becomes opposite of fun
BoneWorks and BoneLabs are essentially Garry’s Mod VR. Even though there is a story to these games, it’s very bare bones. (pun intended) BoneWorks and Bonelab are likely a testing ground for SLZ to develop new ways of making VR games, to test the boundaries of what’s possible, while also creating a community that wants to create things along with them. Bonelab specifically has some of the most incredible mods I’ve ever seen in gaming, let along VR games. Hell, some modders ported the entirety of BoneWorks into bonelab via modding. Not even SLZ could get BoneWorks to run on standalone headsets.
I mean modders are just wild and low key heroes for the VR comunity. Same could be said for Skyrim VR. I don't even know if that thing would be playable at all if modders had not come to the rescue.
I feel like I should clarify, I know SLZ _could_ have gotten BoneWorks to function on standalone. They just chose not to due to the hardware limitations. It took the LabWorks team nearly 2 years to get the port ready for release. Thats time SLZ didn’t have to spare. To be clear, isn’t to diminish the work of the labworks team, or the work of SLZ. The fact that they got a game that was PCVR exclusive fully ported to standalone headsets is absolutely mind blowing and deserves massive praise.
@@ThePolarisSystem I always try to consider the realities of VR development when looking at all these games. Game development is so insanely expensive and VR is such a niche making it very risky. I heard somewhere that the majority of VR development teams are around 15-20 people. The fact that we have any VR games released deserves praise.
for me the game clicked as soon as i booted it up i love VR games with full body's more than just hands not to say i don't like games with floating hands i played and very much enjoyed half life Alex into the radius and gorn but for me BONEWORKS is the definitive VR experience and is not a tech demo at all the story once you understand it is very good and how a lot of there games are connected is also really cool to me and BONEWORKS is one of my favorite games of all time and recommended it a ton and i think i have good taste my favorite game of all time is dark souls 1 and i enjoyed every second of my BONEWORKS play through which i played on my quest 2 i want to get the index but idk if its worth it
As an Index user myself, I can't recommend it to anyone in 2024 at it's current price. The controllers are the only thing really keeping me on it at this point. There are a handful of headsets with much better optics now and I think the lighthouse tracking is getting less and less support from manufacturers.
@@bonezzVR I want a better headset then the quest 2 but for me I fell like the quest 3 won’t be that big of an upgrade but the htc vive controllers look really bad and I just don’t know what other headsets would be a good option
@@toaster_GAMER-cu5xm You might be able to find something on the used market (get new faceplates 🤮!). I haven't used a quest headset since the original but I'm considering picking up the Quest 3 to make videos about some of the cool games locked to the platform.
I feel l ike a solution in certain games could just be giving the option to pick a full body or just hands, for the time being. But that would be hard if a game DID focus on physics that included the entire body. For me, i just shift...i get used to whatever game im playing. I do appreciate a good body model though, but in most games i dont need to feel like the skin is me, just that im controlling the puppet. So if its kinda off, im like, eh, whatever. I have full body tracking, so I do know the feeling of wanting to be fully immersed and in character, with my body matching up how its supposed to.But different experiences kinda curate their own feeling, and i just follow along and enjoy it how the devs intended.
I think the option would be a good idea in the majority of VR games as they are right now but with the way Boneworks is designed, I think it would make it way more disorienting only seeing hands. I just did a video on Underdogs (still chocked I everyone hasn't been talking about that game) and they sort of do both. It works really well with the mech pilot hands being 1:1 match with your movements but the mech's arms having physics. Since you can see both at the same time, it made the puppet control feel much more intuitive to me because I could use the visual of my actual movements to judge how it was impacting the physics-driven arms. It also just makes you feel like you are in Pacific Rim or something.
The physics stuff is nice, I just wish the combat could be improved, It was only ever remotely a challenge with a weaker avatar (used a custom one, that being Arcueid) thanks to the WAY too forgiving last wind system making it impossible to die, nulls being a non threat in several ways, and the lack of enemy variety, seriously there’s a mod to add more omni variants, that should have been in vanilla.
@@mehow3263 I was worried I was going to get a lot more personal attacks for my perspective 😅. I'm glad everyone is having thoughtful conversation about it for the most part, that's the community I want to foster on this channel, all opinions welcome.
I've played blade and sorcery and the game was so frustrating to play with the way movement happens etc. (also because my valve index controllers kept grabbing onto random stuff from slight pressure being applied) so im thinking of getting boneworks but idk if the experience is in any way similar (interaction and physics). Anyone who played blade and sorcery and also boneworks would you say boneworks is in any way better and should i buy it?
Personally, I prefer B&S as a game. They made a lot of quality of life improvments. Boneworks/ Bonelab are still very worth checking out but just go in knowing you will face a lot of the same issues.
I use an ultrawide monitor so it's the default capture resolution. I also just want more ultrawide content out there so I'm doing my part 😅. I know it's not for everyone but it also fills most phone screens better. Thanks for watching!
It's all so subjective, I get why people like it so much and we need more projects like this. It's a big reason I never want to stray too far into review territory on this channel, it's a lose lose when VR experiences are so personal.
Fellas I need help. When I play bonelabs, such as punching and grabbing enemies... My character keeps trying to climb the enemies I am fighting. Is that normal?
If your avatar is not strong/heavy enough to pickup something you may just end up pulling yourself up. If you are fighting enemies that are around or less than your weight you should be able to pull and push them without being lifted off the ground much. Idk what’s up with your punching though you’d have to give more context to as how you are punching.
I liked the beginning tutorial part. The rest was pretty janky, and the lack of save points was a game killer. I never went back to it after a few hours.
I cant say i ever felt immersed in Boneworks. But I still loved every minute of it. HLA is an incredibly gripping experience, and VR in general, allows for some incredible levels of immersion. the tech is wonderful. But don't forget that VR allows for incredible Interaction. In our traditional games we do have serious immersive experiences, and then we have garrys mod. where your just fucking around and having fun. Thats how I feel about boneworks. The Physics based interactions are clunky as hell, but its just fun. calling it a tech demo feels like calling garrys mod a tech demo. both are clearly not your super immserive experiences, more like goofball simulators that being said, I never enjoyed the leg physics. that climbing example is REAL
It honestly makes me feel crazy when people tell me this is the best game in VR. Recording the footage for this video made me want to throw my headset at a wall several times. Different strokes for different folks I guess. I can totally understand the appeal for the right people.
Working through my Into The Radius video, you guys were right, it's awesome and I have a lot to say. What other kinds of VR content do you want to see?
If you haven't already, a spotlight video on non vr games that have been modded for vr.
How do you record PC VR games in such a cool way, wide FOV, no shaking, etc.? This really helps to show VR games on a flat screen better than even game developers do. It "sells" the VR experience better to those who are not VR fans. Please write down the methods that you use.
I don't have any secret sauce really but I do spend a lot of time testing and playing with game settings before I capture so I appreciate that a lot. Every game is a little different so I try to find the best viewing experience that conveys what its like in the headset. A big part of it is finding ways to capture with wide FOV since I capture for the ultrawide aspect ratio which definitely helps the motion feel smoother.
If VR was traditional gaming, I feel like we're still in the 70s. One day games like Half-Life Alyx and Boneworks will look like Space Invaders and Pong.
Facts
@@bonezzVR Good luck with the channel. Don't forget us when you hit 100k.
Never, but that's at least a couple years out 😆
@@bonezzVRwait, this channel isn’t famous yet?!
@@bonezzVRimma subscrimb
Part of the boneworks jank is that Ford gets tired, which is never really mentioned or brought up. But hold something heavy like the block early in the museum for the block and button puzzle.
Eventually his arms will sag a bit, then sudden burst of energy before returning to normal, then sag again.
He does this a lot. Let a crablet grab you and pry it off your face. One hand. If another gets you in less than 4 seconds, it'll be harder. After that then you'll need 2 hands. Then it's hard for 2 hands, and on that 5th time with less than 3 seconds in between each, you might not be able to get it off..
This created a lot of the difficulty, but it also did a lot of the jank.
The crablet thing just makes sense for gameplay, cuz without it there'd be no consequence for the repeated failure to dodge/hit it away, but the heavy objects bouncing definitely feels janky
The vision Stress Level Zero has for the bone games is that they want to build up a consistent set of logic and rules with physics and such that can almost mimic real life so that someone can just throw on a headset and the game just makes sense and works exactly how you’d expect it to. It’s no where near that yet and they know that but it’s a great start and these games are more of a proof of concept/stepping stones and a way of funding their further research and development. They also hope that these projects will push other bigger studios to push the boundaries as well. Although these games do have a few problems that aren’t just a limitation of technology I think they are a great start to making these systems less janky and more widespread.
I think we have even seen that with things like Blade & Sorcery. I think they refined some of the concepts in the SLZ games enough that I don't mind them as much. I still can't climb up ledges but I find it generally easier to move around.
Honestly, I think I have the complete opposite outlook when it comes to immersion in VR. I think the difference between the two methods is the balance of feedback vs control. In the floating hands method you have complete control of your body at the expense of feedback and interaction with the world. With this method there is never a disconnect between your body and your VR body. Where bonelab's method differs is it gives you increased feedback and interaction with the world BUT you lose some control of your body. With this method the world feels much more realistic. You interact more authentically in the game but of course not always in real life. For me, when I feel like I'm not a part of the VR world it breaks down my immersion much more than my VR body not being true to my real body. For others I suppose the feeling of being disconnected from their body breaks down the immersion on a greater scale than the world being less realistic. For me Boneworks was multitudes more immersive than Alyx and honestly I just love boneworks to bits.
One thing I am realizing is that VR is going to be much more complicated than I would've though. To make a VR world that gives complete feedback will probably only be achievable by something that interacts neurally, because how would you create something like jumping into a wall with just hardware? Anyways, I commend Stress Level Zero for their work in Boneworks and I hope people keep pushing the boundaries in VR because that's the only way it will grow!
I equate this period of VR to early FPS games on console but so much more complicated. Since your involvement is so much more active. I think opinions about the best control methods are a lot stronger. Things like boneworks might not even be playable for some people because of how disorienting it can get, but for others, it's the preferred way to experience VR. Very long road ahead for VR.
Regarding the issue of immersion with hands. I guess that the duckling effect may be at play here, where the option with which you initially had your first experience remained the most “correct” for your perception. So trying to accept reality with a new vision of hands will can disrupt perception (by analogy with teleport after locomotion or vice versa). Was Boneworks your first serious experience before HL Alyx or not?
Playing Half Life Alyx I didn’t even notice I was only hands. The game was just that immersive. I think I agree that different video games can benefit from it. Like Skyrim or Fallout VR especially if you want to see your armor and such. Great video.
I’ve played probably over 60 different vr games and boneworks is still my favorite. To eaches own
I'm dying to get to the bottom of the HLA / Boneworks divide. That seems like the big split between VR enthusiasts and most people seem to end up on one side or the other. It's fascinating, but you are right to each their own
@@bonezzVR my biggest problem with hla is the lineriar design and lack of melle. But I also really don’t like floating hands so that’s another reason. Hla is still a very impressive game tho.
Climbing was where bike works fell apart. I can't tell you how many ledges I fell off of because I couldn't get by dumb legs over the top of a small step.
😅 I was losing my mind every time
I think the issue with Boneworks is less the lack of the tech to support full body simulation and more the developer leaning so hard on it. Cheating things like having your legs support the upper body while climbing might sound counter intuitive since you're not doing that action IRL while playing the game. But you CAN'T do that action IRL. Avoiding situations where that disconnect arises or including adaptations like automated reverse IK to "ease" the character model onto a ledge would make Boneworks feel SO much better. Yes, it would compromise their intent a bit. And I also think full body tracking will happen quickly at a consumer level, so eventually their vision will be better realized. But if they had just exercised SOME restraint instead of going all in on the concept, I think the game would work better overall without sacrificing it's unique identity.
Bonelab tried to make it easier by incorporating characters with different physicality. But you end up with the same issues where levels are designed for gameplay you can't physically do IRL while also demanding that you do those actions IRL or the game breaks. It's not bad tech or lack of support, it's just bad game design done in the pursuit of avoiding compromise, when that very compromise would have made the game a better experience.
So well said! On my HLA video some of the minor push back was that the design in it feels dated next to things like Boneworks but I personally think that Valve in all their wisdom exercised restraint to get the best, most intuitive and immersive experience. There are mods for it that add in jumping and a physics based crowbar weapon similar to Boneworks that both imo make it a worse and less immersive game. I have to hand it to Stress Level Zero for how forward thinking they were in some of their design choice but the number of times I would just close the game because I was struggling to do the most basic things was infuriating.
@@bonezzVR Yeah, SLZ is for SURE on the cutting edge of VR, but they're clearly in-experienced developers that are putting their concept ahead of executing on a well-realized game. I love boneworks and bonelab. I think they are incredible games that have done countless things to push VR forward as a medium. But they are clumsy and obnoxious to play unless you know all the tricks to work around the full body simulation. It's simply not ground enough of a game to be intuitive and I think a future title with the exact same physics but levels designed for humans IRL would be more fun to play while also demonstrating the insane potential of VR.
after all i think bonelabs and boneworks is more a proof of concept rather than a ''game'' but i found both of it really impressive for the time it got out. no hate ur video is pretty accurate and i understand some of ur points
No offense taken I'm actually really glad everyone is being civil and having good faith conversation about things for the most part. I want this channel to be a place where everyone can share and discuss whether they agree or not, all opinions welcome.
Thanks for the video, i thought i was the only person who preferred hands over full body. Full body never feels right to me. I like the idea of it, it just never works how it be should or how my brain thinks it should
Hey, a fellow floating hand enjoyer. I feel like most people prefer the full body rig, but it definitely breaks the immersion for me. Gloves (or robotic hands) help me a lot too because cheap-looking skin takes me out of things too.
I believe full arm works when you got trackers attached to your arms and the games IK is able to predict the correct position with that extra tracker.
But if you got arms, you also got a body, so that'd be more tracckers required.
HL:alys did it best tbh ;>
If you think about it, bonelab wasn’t a sequel to boneworks, it was just a bonelab #1, B-side will be boneworks #2. Just a random thought. 0:25
I'm curious to see how they continue building on the ideas, surely they are working on the next thing.
@@bonezzVR I’m hoping to see stuff that’s… better than what we have, lol
Funnily enough, Boneworks was my first ever VR experience, and I freaking loved it. I thought the Player Rig, physics based nature and how that's utilized in the campaign was absolutely amazing. Of course I had problems performing basic tasks at first, but as I kept playing and got better, I kept enjoying the game more and more. Boneworks was the most immersive thing I had ever had the fortune of experiencing while playing video games, and it really inspired me. I came out of Boneworks feeling dissatisfied with most VR Titles, knowing they're not using the medium to it's fullest potential. As a game designer/developer I can definitely see where you're coming from. I think Boneworks completely reimagines what VR is and how it is utilized, which can lead to major frustration for experienced VR users. I think playing Boneworks as my first ever VR Game lead to me loving this game so much, even though it's discouraged by the developers.
Bonelab though, that's a totally different story. The campaign was short, linear and disappointing, and the weird new physics rig with the body remapping just feels awful. I hate when my brain is expecting everything to be in world space, like in boneworks, every other VR Game, and surprise, the real world, but suddenly my in-game hands don't match up with my real hands anymore and move at different rates. Like isn't the whole premise of Marrow that it has really good interaction between the player and THE ENVIRONMENT? I don't care about if I can touch my skin and it matches up in game, I want to play the game, interact with the environment using my hands, which are in world space.
your vr graphism are crazy crisp
Out of headset boneworks looks amazing because they put a bunch of post processing on it on the highest graphics, doesn't look this good in headset sadly
@@floatingpyro2050 same w me lol
I think once full body trackers becomes cheap enough for the average vr user to afford this problem will go away
Really that is the logical next step but I wonder how many people are actually going to be down for a full suit up every time the want to play.
@bonezzVR it would definitely really only be for the hardcore, but if you're able to get a set of quality trackers for like 30 bucks? The casual might be more inclined to try it. Even if they don't use it every time they play
it's not about price for most bro, I'm a hardcore VR user and I want nothing to do with putting on more things to be able to play a game. Half Life Alyx just works for me, and honestly that's all I need. Boneworks isn't good enough for me to want to do all of that. I'll just play Alyx mods.
I agree with everything you said but I still love boneworks and games with full body
I think those games are a lot of fun puppetering a digital body leads to a lot of funny moments where you see frustration getting your arm stuck on something or forgetting that your vr legs exist and bumping into something while climbing
I think its fun
Blade and sorcery works well with full body too since its really over the top with its violence and doesnt take itself completly seriously
However for fully immersive experiences or proper polished game releases that want mass appeal floating hands are a better choice depending on what the game is about
Half life alyx wouldnt benefit from full body no one wants to watch this alyx model weirdly contort itself
Thats completly immersion breaking
VR still in it's infancy and I think it's going to be a very long time before full body makes sense to the average consumer. People playing things like Boneworks and B&S are the enthusiasts and I think for the most part we are willing to look past a lot of the problems and see the future potential. That said I think the quality of life tweaks to the formula that B&S makes are game changing. I find that a much more enjoyable experience despite similar challenges.
Floating hands are an immediate turn-off for me.
I'm not buying any game that only offers floating hands.
It's fine if they give it as an option, but not as the only option.
I dont know about Boneworks but in bonelab you can make your legs tuck with the thumbstick while climbing making it easier. With blade and sorcery nomad and the normal one your legs automatically tuck up when your off ground and they go onto any object infront of you to simulate grip and yes sometimes looking down to see your character having his legs tucked up as they switch between being on the wall and not it breaks immersion but its still good in gameplay since you dont get stuck.
I think B&S makes some really smart quality of life improvements to this style of game.
In the end, it is a hen/egg problem. Full body tracking is quite niche, even among VR enthusiasts right now. Hence no incentive for SLZ to grace us with FBT support in the Bone games. However, if those games would support them, a lot of the thank would resolve itself. Thinking a bit further, just including some haptic feedback and game-side support for it into the trackers one straps onto the body would make this into a league of its own. But I think SLZ did not really do anyone a favor by not including FBT support in Boneworks.
And we shouldn't even look to the floaty hands games to include FBT support anytime soon. So this overall problem is actually a bit of a vicious cycle that needs breaking.
I hope we get there eventually, I think we will.
(note i have only played bonelab but i know it's similar enough) it feels like the developers and audience got so blind sided by how new and fresh it was (seeing as vr was in a more early state) that they looked over the inherent flaws of the full body system from SLZ.
In most games your body (if visible) follows where you hands go, streching and moving to get there (ITR, B&S, Etc.) but the Bone Games have it where your hands are controlled by the virtual body, even with menus it's crazy. but the developers can't see that their vision of this being the standard is inherently flawed. and they somehow make it worse in bonelab with recent updates.
They "updated" the body to be more realistic with little baby punching upclose and not being able to rotate your wrists all the way, constantly reminding you that you are controlling this avatar, and it's just dumb cause we have bodies IRL with their own limitations. SLZ keeps trying to push this with the marrow engine and i haven't seen a single other game adopt this system
(chronic rambler)
I love ramblers, the channel is still new enough that I read all the blogs people leave haha. Well said though. I'd be curious to hear the devs talk more about their philosophy on these games. You really have to hand it to them for taking things as far as they have and Boneworks absolutely inspired other games that took parts and tried to make them more manageable.
My favorite VR experience is into the radius 1 & 2 especially the second one now and early access it’s beautiful I can’t wait for more Content❤
It’ll never get good if they don’t develop it. SLZ hasn’t made the engine licensable yet as it isn’t ready for any sort of mass adaptation so there is no way a single other game could currently adopt this system. I think it’s more of an acquired taste currently though as the bone games are definitely flawed and not for everyone.
110% agree with you on this one, tried so many time to finish this game but cant bare playing more then an hour at a time end always ended unistalling it for space on my small ssd. Didnt even tried Bonelabs. The climbing in Bonework really let me down. The only thing i really enjoyed was the Zombie game mode.
The guns in this game feel really good. In my mind the best body control ive seen is in Blade and sorcery.
It mostly clicked fore me, but I only really started playing because I love the dark/gritty sci fi asthetic the game has
It's definitely an iconic world in the VR community.
I'm definitely a fan of Boneworks, but I also agree with your analysis.
It's more like a physics experience than a game -- and I loved it for that, but I think your expectations have to be in the right place.
I had lots of time (Played during the lockdown) to kill, so I didn't mind that it wasn't plug and play and happily spent lots of time in it but I can totally understand your frustrations.
In particular -- I really agree mostly that for a lot of games, your entire body isn't necessary for the gameplay to be immersive.
I'm playing Fallout 4 VR right now with lots of mods and one of them FRIK is a full body mod which has an arms-only mode but it isn't really implemented all that well but I wish it was because most of the time I don't even need my full body to enjoy the experience and often it gets in the way/breaks immersion because it's not responsive enough -- think jumping in the game and have my legs go entirely stiff in the air lmao.
Great vid!
I definitely don't want to deter people from playing it. I think the work this team does is important but I think good honest conversations about this stuff is just as important. We are in the equivalent VR equivalent of the 8-bit era, this all has a long way to go.
Best Game in vr in MY OPINION is Half Life: Alyx
gang
this is all a really good take, i played labworks (a port of boneworks in bonelabs) i never really had this problem when i was playing it but i was really used to it by the time i played it, but as a first vr game or a first full body vr game I can fully understand all the critsism
lab works is vary different from BONEWORKS i have played both and the fps on labworks is very noticeable and you just don't get the same experience
Boneworks is my favorite VR game, so to answer your question when I first played Boneworks I just felt like I was one with the simulation like I could go and do anything. I felt more present in Boneworks than I have in any other VR game. And even though I love Boneworks I agree about your opinion in this video. There is a disconnect between your body irl and in game but for me that only happens really when climbing, that in my opinion is where the jank of Boneworks really shows. There is only areas where jank also shows but it’s mainly on climbing for me. But in the future I hope more VR games are physics based because after playing Boneworks every other VR game feels shallow in comparison, like I’m just gliding across the floor not actually walking.
Yo man, great video! Also, idk if you've heard, but SLZ developers have shared plans to integrate the quest 3's upper body tracking into their marrow engine
I have not heard thats super cool. I'm looking forward to checking out Bonelab now with Boneworks so fresh in my mind. I haven't checked it out since launch.
Loved every second of this video. Keep up the good work dude!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Absolutely agree, I hated playing boneworks, it felt more of a chore simulator than a game. But for me there was more, I also disliked how the enemies looked, sounded and the hitting feedback, I also didnt quite like how the world looked, yes yes the story is youre in VR, but it just felt like such a barren wasteland of nothing.
Im guessing they were kinda going for a cyber-portal-ish experience that was surreal.
Theres a world on VRChat called Organism(that map deserves its own video btw). That world has the surreal vibe down to a T.
But Boneworks..literally nothing gave me joy other than shooting guns, but the enemies werent fun so that also wasnt fun.
Exactly! It may be amazing on the technical level, but overall, the presentation is just awful. Boneworks gives such empty, subliminal and haunting experience, that its janky mechanics becomes opposite of fun
it makes me so sick
It has a way of making even experienced VR user nauseous
@@bonezzVR I breezed the Alyx this game broke me.
BoneWorks and BoneLabs are essentially Garry’s Mod VR. Even though there is a story to these games, it’s very bare bones. (pun intended) BoneWorks and Bonelab are likely a testing ground for SLZ to develop new ways of making VR games, to test the boundaries of what’s possible, while also creating a community that wants to create things along with them.
Bonelab specifically has some of the most incredible mods I’ve ever seen in gaming, let along VR games. Hell, some modders ported the entirety of BoneWorks into bonelab via modding. Not even SLZ could get BoneWorks to run on standalone headsets.
I mean modders are just wild and low key heroes for the VR comunity. Same could be said for Skyrim VR. I don't even know if that thing would be playable at all if modders had not come to the rescue.
I feel like I should clarify, I know SLZ _could_ have gotten BoneWorks to function on standalone. They just chose not to due to the hardware limitations. It took the LabWorks team nearly 2 years to get the port ready for release. Thats time SLZ didn’t have to spare.
To be clear, isn’t to diminish the work of the labworks team, or the work of SLZ. The fact that they got a game that was PCVR exclusive fully ported to standalone headsets is absolutely mind blowing and deserves massive praise.
@@ThePolarisSystem I always try to consider the realities of VR development when looking at all these games. Game development is so insanely expensive and VR is such a niche making it very risky. I heard somewhere that the majority of VR development teams are around 15-20 people. The fact that we have any VR games released deserves praise.
for me the game clicked as soon as i booted it up i love VR games with full body's more than just hands not to say i don't like games with floating hands i played and very much enjoyed half life Alex into the radius and gorn but for me BONEWORKS is the definitive VR experience and is not a tech demo at all the story once you understand it is very good and how a lot of there games are connected is also really cool to me and BONEWORKS is one of my favorite games of all time and recommended it a ton and i think i have good taste my favorite game of all time is dark souls 1 and i enjoyed every second of my BONEWORKS play through which i played on my quest 2 i want to get the index but idk if its worth it
As an Index user myself, I can't recommend it to anyone in 2024 at it's current price. The controllers are the only thing really keeping me on it at this point. There are a handful of headsets with much better optics now and I think the lighthouse tracking is getting less and less support from manufacturers.
@@bonezzVR I want a better headset then the quest 2 but for me I fell like the quest 3 won’t be that big of an upgrade but the htc vive controllers look really bad and I just don’t know what other headsets would be a good option
@@toaster_GAMER-cu5xm You might be able to find something on the used market (get new faceplates 🤮!). I haven't used a quest headset since the original but I'm considering picking up the Quest 3 to make videos about some of the cool games locked to the platform.
@@bonezzVR I might try to get the index on used market or just wait tell they make a new headset
Haha I'm on Valve time too, their new headset might never come out, or be announced and released tomorrow.
I feel l ike a solution in certain games could just be giving the option to pick a full body or just hands, for the time being. But that would be hard if a game DID focus on physics that included the entire body. For me, i just shift...i get used to whatever game im playing. I do appreciate a good body model though, but in most games i dont need to feel like the skin is me, just that im controlling the puppet. So if its kinda off, im like, eh, whatever. I have full body tracking, so I do know the feeling of wanting to be fully immersed and in character, with my body matching up how its supposed to.But different experiences kinda curate their own feeling, and i just follow along and enjoy it how the devs intended.
I think the option would be a good idea in the majority of VR games as they are right now but with the way Boneworks is designed, I think it would make it way more disorienting only seeing hands. I just did a video on Underdogs (still chocked I everyone hasn't been talking about that game) and they sort of do both. It works really well with the mech pilot hands being 1:1 match with your movements but the mech's arms having physics. Since you can see both at the same time, it made the puppet control feel much more intuitive to me because I could use the visual of my actual movements to judge how it was impacting the physics-driven arms. It also just makes you feel like you are in Pacific Rim or something.
The physics stuff is nice, I just wish the combat could be improved, It was only ever remotely a challenge with a weaker avatar (used a custom one, that being Arcueid) thanks to the WAY too forgiving last wind system making it impossible to die, nulls being a non threat in several ways, and the lack of enemy variety, seriously there’s a mod to add more omni variants, that should have been in vanilla.
Just give it time it grown on you
wtf dude good job on the video, I felt like I'm watching some multi milion sub channel
Yo really appreciate it! Trying to tweak everything as I go along to make these videos better and better.
@@bonezzVR well done, the video got me thinking why boneworks didn’t click for me and I think you’re right.
@@mehow3263 I was worried I was going to get a lot more personal attacks for my perspective 😅. I'm glad everyone is having thoughtful conversation about it for the most part, that's the community I want to foster on this channel, all opinions welcome.
bonezzworks
🫡
I've played blade and sorcery and the game was so frustrating to play with the way movement happens etc. (also because my valve index controllers kept grabbing onto random stuff from slight pressure being applied) so im thinking of getting boneworks but idk if the experience is in any way similar (interaction and physics). Anyone who played blade and sorcery and also boneworks would you say boneworks is in any way better and should i buy it?
Personally, I prefer B&S as a game. They made a lot of quality of life improvments. Boneworks/ Bonelab are still very worth checking out but just go in knowing you will face a lot of the same issues.
@@bonezzVR thanks!
Bro woke up and choose to speak facts.
nice video but bit weird resolution
I use an ultrawide monitor so it's the default capture resolution. I also just want more ultrawide content out there so I'm doing my part 😅. I know it's not for everyone but it also fills most phone screens better. Thanks for watching!
@@bonezzVR fair enough
Yeah i agree, altough i have a little more positive review Boneworks, i totally get you.
It's all so subjective, I get why people like it so much and we need more projects like this. It's a big reason I never want to stray too far into review territory on this channel, it's a lose lose when VR experiences are so personal.
@@bonezzVR i get ya, however i do wish good luck on your channel's future.
Appreciate it! Thanks for checking out the video!
Fellas I need help. When I play bonelabs, such as punching and grabbing enemies... My character keeps trying to climb the enemies I am fighting. Is that normal?
Boosting for visibility, maybe some Bonelab players can jump in and help!
If your avatar is not strong/heavy enough to pickup something you may just end up pulling yourself up. If you are fighting enemies that are around or less than your weight you should be able to pull and push them without being lifted off the ground much. Idk what’s up with your punching though you’d have to give more context to as how you are punching.
21:9 was Revolutionary for PC, but... I HATE THIS RATIO
I liked the beginning tutorial part. The rest was pretty janky, and the lack of save points was a game killer. I never went back to it after a few hours.
They added save points later on btw
I cant say i ever felt immersed in Boneworks. But I still loved every minute of it. HLA is an incredibly gripping experience, and VR in general, allows for some incredible levels of immersion. the tech is wonderful. But don't forget that VR allows for incredible Interaction.
In our traditional games we do have serious immersive experiences, and then we have garrys mod. where your just fucking around and having fun. Thats how I feel about boneworks. The Physics based interactions are clunky as hell, but its just fun.
calling it a tech demo feels like calling garrys mod a tech demo. both are clearly not your super immserive experiences, more like goofball simulators
that being said, I never enjoyed the leg physics. that climbing example is REAL
Garry's mod is a solid example and kind of what I figured was the draw, the sandbox.
Bruh I got stuck almost every time I tried to climb something.
Yeah ur banned,
I thought i was the only one that thought this way
It honestly makes me feel crazy when people tell me this is the best game in VR. Recording the footage for this video made me want to throw my headset at a wall several times. Different strokes for different folks I guess. I can totally understand the appeal for the right people.