Astounding John. You are so gifted at representing our Christian faith, a true gift from God. Your purpose on earth is clear to see. I share your total faith. Your references to His Word through the Holy Bible, your intelligent and logical answers to difficult questions is astounding, and joy and peace at knowing and having a relationship with our Creator and Redeemer, radiates from you, and is a joy to see Nothing in the athiestic world view comes close to explaining while we are here, why we have value, and the peace and comfort this brings to believers. God is amazing, and you, Mr Lennox are serving Him wonderfully well, I am in awe of your gift from Him who made us and who loves us unconditionally. God bless you, and thank you. ❤️🙏❤️
Brilliantly stated John, that silence you hear is atheists who are trying to come up with an answer, they have none they never have, they just look to tell someone they are wrong.
@@onsenguy I’d feel a lot more cosy if I was convinced that I will not be held accountable for my actions, which is the atheist world view. I could go about stealing, killing, and committing evil acts because the only thing that I have to look forward to is death. If you are an atheist, you are incapable of condemning evil with your ideology. Simple as.
@@instrumentofdivinejustice4570 as a freethinker myself, I don't believe there's a celestial policeman watching over me, yet I do not commit evil acts and I don't harm anyone, steal, or kill. I consider myself more open-minded, respectful, and considerate to others than most people. I imagine that must be difficult to digest for someone who was taught that we can only be good if we're superstitious or believe in the supernatural.
@@onsenguy I understand where you’re coming from, but how do you know you’re not committing evil acts? What reference do you use for the line between good and evil? If there is no celestial policeman, it seems to me that poses a problem for the existence of morality or truth in the first place. What do you think?
@@MrChris4251 this is a common fallacy among religious thinkers. the reality is that the moral precepts of religion, such as "thou shalt not kill" or "thou shalt not steal" have been around long before christianity or any of the major world religions. a society where theft and murder are common is inconvenient to everyone. also, if you look at the regions in the world that have the lowest amount of religious belief, such as the scandanavian countries, new zealand, australia, and canada, these areas have a lower rate of theft and murder than most other countries. this simple example shows there is no link between religious belief and abstaining from theft or murder. the prisons are NOT filled with atheists and freethinkers.
With or without religion humanity suffers for without suffering it would not exist. It has come through to the present precisely because it can learn from suffering how to cope with it. Suffering is an essential and unavoidable part of animal life.
It's about time you conceded a bloody point :-) I believe inquiries into the nature of justice and hope are always relevant, whether expressed in a theistic or atheistic context. Many people of religions other than my own have quite different hopes to those that I have, but I would only very rarely (and in exceptional circumstances) try to take that hope away from them. Would I want Christianity (or any other religion) to ever be lost to humanity? Not at all. And the same goes for atheism.
@@beemer2869 I take Christian claims about problem of evil and suffering and respond to them by changing general "evil" into particular sort of evil, for example "child rape". So, when someone says "evil and suffering exist so that we could appreciate good times", I translate that to "child rape exists so that children can appreciate times when they are not raped". "Evil exists because God respects free Will"="child rape exists because God respects free will of the rapist". "Evil exist so that we could be tested and closer to God"="Child rape exists so that children could be tested and closer to God".
@@goranmilic442 ok....are you trying to make a point against Christianity or point out a specific issue with the answer you've been given from some who claim to be Christians?
The problem of evil and suffering does not disprove God's existence. But it does raise serious doubts bout God's nature. It makes it very difficult to believe that there is an all-powerful and all- good God.
the humans themselves brought suffering and dead in the world as they sinned - GOD did not created it at the beginning and determinded them to live in this circle - what GOD created was a free will and the consequence of the free will is often, that a second, third, fourth, fifth person has to suffer, if person number 1 decided to to something evil. for example, if person 1 is greedy and irresponsible, than he maybe starts poisoning nature to gain resources and thousands to millions of other persons will get very ill cause of the destruction of nature. of course thats just 1 simple example. to oversee the consequences of an action of a human being is almost impossible (butterfly effect), multiply that to billions of people with billions of actions per life. plus in addition the angels also got a free will, and according to christian teaching the devil was one of them. also well created, but decided to fight against GOD, he also makes use of his free will - and uses it to live out his hatred against mankind. Limits were and are set for him, but no human being can judge from the outside where these are, only God knows.
The extremely likely truth is that there are no gods. So do what you do and if it fails then so be it. If it succeeds, then so be it. If you are drowning, struggle to survive until all is lost or you win. That is 'hope'.
The only answer I can give is the one I already gave at the start - when God created the world it was good and the sin of man cursed the earth and everything that's ugly came after that. If that's not enough, Then we'll just have to agree to disagree.
The foundation on which all science builds is faith. Faith that the universe is rational, faith that our minds are rational, and faith that the rationality of our minds mirrors the rationality of the universe. The worst thing about atheism is that its apposed to rationality; it gives no justification for believing science.
"Hope, Justice." Great, babies die in agony, but there's hope and justice. You are right, Atheism doesn't say your child died in agony but there's hope to see her in the afterlife, because it says there's Reality. Agony, pain, suffering is all around - that's Reality, no sticking loving gods into the equation.
The Christian world view tells us the reason we can do science. The reason we can understand the exterior universe with our interior minds, is because ultimately by what ever processes go back to rationality on God.
I'm impressed by John Lennox's open mindedness. He has explored some of the issues, to look at both sides. His view might be tolerable if everyone was going to a happily ever after. I have faith & hope that there is no hades [ would people meet the Titans there?] , to cease to exist seems ok to me; this was the fate which the Hebrews imagined Yahweh had in mind for them- sheol-non existence.
12 years late to the discussion, but I would push back that ALL Hebrews imagined that Yahweh had a non-existence in mind for them. Perhaps some believed that, but we see the Book of Job that the eponymous speaker says, "I know that my redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand on the earth. And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God; I myself will see him with my own eyes-I, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!" Job 19:25-27. Too, we see King David respond when his son from his adulterous affair with Bathsheba dies, that he is confident, "He will not go to me, but I will go to him." He doesn't say, "I will be cease to exist like him." Clearly, King David anticipated some sort of reunion with the person of his son, and how else would he know that it is his son unless his son is able to somehow retain his individual nature?
@@sidwhiting665 ok you've got a point there that there were some who hoped to be immortal, existence beyond death. Well the ancient Egyptian kings hoped for an existence after death or why would they put material objects to help them in the here after. There were probably an assortment of ideas in every tribe about what happens when we die. A universalist view would be , "Wouldn't a loving competent god make sure no hell existed or if it had would have taken measures to totally undo it?" In a way Christianity says there was a problem but it is fixed now.
So where did we get this other capacity to figure out not only what helps our genes to make it into the nest generation, but also to understand what is going on in the world? To put it another way what is the survival value of truth itself?
No, it was directed at bushfingers, in response to his personal attack. It seems to have appeared below your comment due to how youtube organizes these things.
He implies this in the statement that 'Atheism removes all hope of justice'. It is at the height of imply that Justice either does not exist, or is not possible outside of belief in your particular brand of god.
To think like you I would have to believe that, nothing produces everything, non life produces life, randomness produces information, unconsciousness produces consciousness and non-reason produces reason. I would have to believe in existence with a creator, order without intelligence , laws without a legislator and design with out a designer.This wouldrequire a blind leap of Faith that I am not willing take.
Hey, bushfingers. I hope you got the email I sent. It's little more than a suggested list of topics we might discuss, but the question of "hope in the absence of God" (or, much more to the point, I think, "in the absence of an afterlife") is one I had overlooked and seems an excellent addition. It is also I suspect the only point on which we are likely in large part to agree.
"death is not the end" this doesn't solve the problem of evil because it doesn't take animal suffering into account....unless he believes all animals have an afterlife.
@@instrumentofdivinejustice4570define what you mean with "peace" when a "loving" god can drown innocent babies, infants, children, pregnant women, elderly, handicapped people and lets not forget every other animal over a small village of people in the desert exersizing their freewill which he supposedly gave to them knowing beforehand how they would act. I dont think you know what peace is nor loving.
Unfortunately, we know that when the brain dies the person's consciousness dies too. So there is no possibility of an afterlife or reuniting with our loved ones. It's not a happy ending I know, but it's the truth.
For the truth about religion try Robert M. Price, ' The reason driven life ' or John W. Loftus or Victor J. Stenger, ' God, the failed hypothesis' . Also interesting to have a look at the 1500BCE papyrus of Ani, with its god Osiris who weighs the heart to decide who can pass to the land of the living.[ The need to know the names of the gods & the negative confession & other magic texts to get there]. James Frazer's 'The Golden Bough' and C.S. Lewis, 'Mere Christianity'
The evidence is in the millions and millions of lives that have been transformed into good for the glory of God and the Love and Power with in each them to endure great hardship and suffering with REAL HOPE Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. ( We do not see Abba Father, The Holy Spirit or Christ Yeshua in the flesh but we can clearly see the evidence of their handy work all around us each day..... John 14:27
Agreed, that Justice and Hope are open-ended concepts, that aren't so easily defined (Justice is blind, yes?). Thinking of it in one sense or another isn't so bad...but to say that it doesn't exist outside of faith? That is ridiculous.
How would you explain the origin of a finite universe from a timeless cause??? Please could you give me a better explanation for the incredible fine tuning of the universe to sustain intelligent life, other than a creator? Steven Hawkings says this "If the rate of expansion one second after the big bang had been smaller by even one part in a hundred thousand million million, the universe would have recollapased before it reached its present size." .
Bc atheists have not absolute moral... but subjective morality. ... if i.e. hurting others makes you happy,, then me I cannot prove that what you're doing is wrong. Who judges what is good or bad...
I'd say that's the number one go to, atheist belief about suffering, is to turn away from God, but it is interesting to me that they kinda beleive without knowing it , by turning away from what they disapprove of, God, God's ways, the allowing of suffering, they are angry at him, and I feel they are ANGRY, really angry at what they think if as a real God, cause otherwise if you don't believe in God, what are you angry about, don't waste your energy or get mad at the human with free will that's actually doing it.
Let me help you. "If you honestly don't have the determination or will to find strength outside of your mental cage, then by all means, stay inside of it." That's ad hominem. "Don't claim that there is no hope outside of God. Plenty without God have hope, dreams, and aspirations.". That's begging the question, because the whole point under consideration is the nature of 'hope' without God.
Should read: 'It is the height of arrogance to imply that Justice either does not exist, or is not possible outside of belief in your particular brand of god.'
"Was this a cheap prod to cull my interest?" Was this addressed to me, Mathenaut? I wasn't alluding to you at all with my phrase "slobbering bovine stupidity" and none of my ammo was marked for yo to begin with. Sorry if it appeared otherwise.
Lennox is assuming naturalism eliminates “all” hope when it does Not. One can actually have hope in “statistics” because we’re all subject to the natural laws of the universe. And the things in nature are in a constant state of change. Meaning one person’s predicament is “bound” to change merely from a statistical viewpoint. That change may not be to our liking (such as aging) but it’s still “change” and could be bad or good. In fact that’s the “true” basis of hope. That the odds might work in our favor. One doesn’t need to believe in a god for hope. One problem though is hoping for realistic results based upon what’s known about the “real” world and Not the supernatural of which no one can know.
Hi polymath7. I did receive your email - thanks. I'll reply in the next few days. I think we will agree on more than you may now believe. But we shall have to see :-)
I didn't really get the idea that you admire him -given your apparent intelligence this seemed unlikely- I just wanted to ascertain this was not the case. And I have read enough of your comments to know that you are a nice and extremely fair-minded guy, and assure you I quite understand your difficulty in resisting the urge to become vituperative in the face of slobbering bovine stupidity. I can be almost brutally tactless myself -frequently to my own regret. Hope to hear from you soon.
we all make mistakes end assumptions !!!! im sorry its just 99% of those comments are made by people who dont want a debate/argue about the subject but rather try to make religious people look weak you dont have to get angry god bless
Well said. With all the evidence in the world, some people will still turn away from Him. They can't see beyond the here and now, they don't have vision or hope, instead pride stands in the way. Sadly, you can lead a horse to the water, but you can't make it drink.
@kgouws asks if John Lennox did not address the issue of God protecting the innocent from suffering. Well, maybe he did. He could have addressed this issue in any one of this other debates and /or books. Be that as it may, the Bible relates to stories where he did just that. The story of the leper comes to mind. There were numerous others. The question you may ask why them and not others? That's a question I cannot answer. But it does tell me how powewrful he is
Dear polymath7 Some of his arguments are better than others. But where do get the idea that I admire him? - I don't think I have mentioned him once in any of my comments. I don't normally write directly insulting comments like I did above, but sometimes I just can't help myself when faced with dismal stupidity.
The words you use, evil and merciful indicate you have a moral standard. You can’t have one outside of God’s ordered universe. You’re just a blob of cells. I am too. In a world where God doesn’t exist we should be completely apathetic towards the sufferings around us, but yet we’re not. We see injustice and suffering and have righteous indignation over it, because we were made in the image of a loving creator.
Yep, that's it - I fell for a nasty trick. You see, I'm very stupid and am therefore easily tricked. I will try to extricate myself from this terrible trap of ignorance.
No he isnt because he gave his creation (us) the ability to do what we want. I.E. free will. He is no more responsible for the choices of a human being, than a parent is for their adult childs.
Well, the Bible says that when God created the world it was good. It was the sin of mankind that created disease and suffering. We abused the gift of free will, basically.
Darwinist philosopher Michael Ruse writes this, Why should a bunch of atoms have thinking ability? Why should I, even as I write now, be able to reflect on what I am doing and why should you even as you read now, be able to ponder my points, agreeing or disagreeing, with pleasure or pain, deciding to refute me or deciding that I am just not worth the effort? No one, certainly not the Darwinian as such, seems to have any answer to this.The point is that there is no scientific answer.
The main "Blank" that John failed to "fill in," in this discussion on why God allows tremendous suffering revolves around three individuals two of who lived in "The Space-Time Continuum." These three individuals were Adam and Eve..... and of course Satan, who took on the form of a serpent.... in "the Space-Time Garden of Eden." This is not Green Mythology.... or any other Mythology.... but it is actual and real 'Space and real Time." When The Serpent was able to trick Eve, and then she was able to trick Adam, into disbelieving God's Reality and the Truth concerning The Tree which contained "The Fruit" (which wasn't an Apple) of the knowledge of good and evil, "Evil, Sin and Death" was unleashed into God's "Perfect World" due to Adam and Eve's disbelief and their disobedience. Consequently, that unleashing has brought these three horrific aspects into all Human Existence, and we are left with the consequences of their disobedience... which played directly into Satan's Plan. So...... God is not to blame, has never been to blame, and never will be to blame, for all of the evil, pain and suffering and death in our world...... and that is why He sent His "Only Begotten Son, Jesus" (John 3:16-17) into this world so that whosoever has surrendered to Him, and humbly acknowledged Jesus' "Payment for each person's individual sin" and also for "Mankind's General Sin," shall be saved. Here's "The Kicker:" The arrogant pride of most people simply won't accept Jesus' Sacrifice and payment for their sins..... because as John wrote in the opening lines of his Gospel of Jesus, "Men loved darkness rather than light.... they loved and still love their sin, instead of loving the light and forgiveness of God through Jesus' life, death, burial and resurrection! The Bottom Line: God has never been responsible for human suffering...... Adam and Eve... and each of us are responsible... down through the ages of human History...... Amen. Ted Schempp, Nashville
I don't know if there is lottery ticket in your pocket right now. I am therefore agnostic about its existence. But I still hope that you win the lottery, if there is a lottery ticket in your pocket. Me saying "God bless you, if there is one" is just like that. If there is an all powerful, all knowing, all good being, I hope it takes good care of your affairs. But I am afraid there is no evidence for such a belief. I hope this clarified the confusion. Have a nice day.
@jason5332 No. Christians hate Dawkins so much, because he appears to be quite nice guy with a peaceful appearance, instead of having a long tail, tridend and spliting around with ignited sulphur. It's hard to convince the flock that they should afraid of an older man.
If John Lennox is convinced he can put all his life and all his trust in life and that of others into the resurrection of Jesus, for which there is no other positive evidence than some ancient scribblings apparently, then you can't touch him. He does this wilfully and consciously, because you cannot definitely disprove his claim. Thus, he can go to church safely and not feel lonely.
way when the atoms inside of my skull happen for physical or chemical reasons to arrange them selfs into a certain way this gives me, as a by-product, the sensation I call thought. But if so, how can I trust my own thinking to be true? And if I cant trust my own thinking, I cant trust the argument leading to atheism, and therefore I have no reason to be an atheist. Unless I believe in God, I cant believe in thought, so I can never use thought to disbelieve God.
@kgouws If he created the universe then he must be all powerful. But what I understand from scriptures He even created Heaven where I believe there will be no pain or suffering. He gave us a free will and has put us to the test by provide us with a moral set of rules & principles. If we live within those parameters, which I have no problem with, then there is no reason why we will not be rewarded with alife without sin or Satan. Shouls one despise him for that? No I don't think so.
So you have hope in suffering because you THINK some guy rose from the dead? We don't even know if he fully died and definitely can't prove he rose from the dead. Even if he DID rise from the dead, does not prove there is an afterlife or "hope after death."
Ophelia McGraw - of course he died. Roman, Jewish and Greek historians like Josephus, Tacitus and Pliny the Younger (just to name a few) recorded it in the 1st century and they weren't Christians. There is not one professor from a credible university of ancient history, theology or biblical studies anywhere in the world that disputes that Jesus walked the earth and died. The 1st century historians also recorded that early Christians were tortured, persecuted and killed because they said that they saw Jesus after he rose from the dead. Why would someone allow themselves to killed when all that they had to say was 'I was only joking' - because they did see him rise from the dead of course! And you top it off by saying - "even if he did rise from the dead it doesn't prove that there is an afterlife" - the bible says that some people will never believe no matter how many miracles they see because their heart has been hardened and they don't want to know God and you are one of them. If he rose from the dead and said he was God chances are he is God - so when he says that there is an afterlife I'll believe him, period!
If a loving creator went through all that effort then it seems a waste to condemn billions of us to hell because he hasn't demonstrated beyond a doubt that he even exists. It is slightly odd that sending his Son over 2000 years ago in an obscure part of the middle East with shakey evidence is the best he could do.
a creature powerful enough to create the laws of physics and galaxies wouldn't give a rats a** about us pathetic humans, and most certainly wouldn't care what we do while naked or what we choose to eat. obviously he didn't think much of us, considering he made us nearly identical to a chimpanzee. oh and to the evolution doubters--from comparative anatomy and dna all competent biologists worldwide would concur that we're roughly 98% chimp.
I'm an agnostic as far as the pink unicorns. I dont think you understand what I mean by God. I mean a unique, personal, plural, spiritual, eternally self-existent, transcendent, immanent, omniscient, immutable, holy, loving being, the creator and ruler of the entire universe and the judge of all mankind. The God I believe in is over and above all things, outside of time and space, completely distinct from the universe, and not to be confused with anything in it.
Josue Hernandez then the relevant question is; why is there sin? If you say “because Adam and Eve”, then have I got some news for you; Adam and Eve didn’t exist. Evolution is a fact. "It is a fact that evolution happens; that biodiversity and complexity do increase, and that both occur naturally, only by evolutionary means. It is also a fact that alleles vary with increasing distinction in reproductive populations, and that these are accelerated in genetically isolated groups. It is a fact that natural selection, sexual selection, and genetic drift have all been proven to have predictable effect in guiding this variance. It is a fact that significant beneficial mutations do occur and are inherited by descendent groups, and that multiple independent sets of biological markers exist to trace these lineages back over many generations. It is a fact that birds are a subset of dinosaurs in the same way that humans are a subset of apes, primates, and eutherian mammals, and that both groups are subsets of vertebrate deuterostome animals. It is a fact that the collective genome of all animals has been traced to its most basal form, and that those forms are also indicated by comparative morphology, physiology, and embryological development. It is a fact that every animal on earth has definite relatives either living nearby or evident in the fossil record and indicated in phylogenetics. It is a fact that the fossil record holds hundreds of transitional species, even according to the strictest definition of that term. And it is a fact that micro evolution and macro evolution have both been directly observed." -Aron Ra Facts of evolution: ruclips.net/video/eGmLDKQp_Qc/видео.htmlm44s ruclips.net/video/5MXTBGcyNuc/видео.htmlm40s ruclips.net/video/Dm277H3ot6Y/видео.htmlm29s ruclips.net/video/_r0zpk0lPFU/видео.htmlm41s ruclips.net/video/99-wZZqOPMw/видео.htmlm17s ruclips.net/video/0qCa0-aah1k/видео.htmlm58s ruclips.net/video/99-wZZqOPMw/видео.htmlm9s ruclips.net/video/qS-pZnS-m58/видео.htmlm ruclips.net/video/jUuQ18RXOyg/видео.htmlm50s ruclips.net/video/isV9hWXpNjc/видео.htmlm47s But if you ignore this, then I’ve got some other news for you; humans don’t have freewill: ruclips.net/p/PLkYjGll0E2OAN9pA7qAsZj-LTewqMDpro So our desire and choices to sin are not our fault. You may say “well, we may not have free will, but Adam and Eve did.” Of course, they also had the desire to disobey that they didn’t choose to possess. So where did the sin come from? Satan? Why was Satan’s power able to condemn us to sin? Why weren’t we made immune from Satan’s influence? And why was Satan made to have the desire to condemn us to sin? All roads lead back to the creator, Josue. Ultimately, if Christianity is true, then the god of Christianity is directly responsible for all sin and thus all suffering, and thus he is either not all powerful, not aware that his actions would result in this suffering, or is not all loving. Of course the simplest solution to this is that he doesn’t exist in the first place.
so many prophesy came true en much good info about creation of the universe en how it functions en much more info about life it self its incredible but scientist just now are catching up to GOD who is all knowing please people bee a little open-minded you really think everything came here by chance ??? now that takes FAITH trust fear en praise HIM for bad people will get punished like Hitler en bin laden en good faithful people will get mercy en grace AMEN i cant wait for THE LORD TO RETURN
"Your pithy responses her on the subject are in stark contrast to the thoughts of great thinkers like Sartre, Camus and Nietzsche" Pithy because they are Pithy? Pithy because they so easily dismiss the notion of your god? Pithy because you want the notion to be more profound than it really is? To compare our answers to the likes of other thinkers and claim that they are weak by contrast, solely in being contrasted, is fallacious. "But maybe I'm just being absurd." Understatement.
@TYLERJB777 If there's no positive evidence to support your claim then I have no reason at all to believe its valid. I'm very curious what is your evidence (more like excuse) to sustain your assertion...
If you don't believe in a God, then you contradict yourself in saying "God bless you." Adding "if there is one" to your statement doesn't make it any less confusing.
Like all weather they regulate temperature. That's why life exists on earth and not on other planets in the solar system, which are either too hot or too cold. Please, do some research and stop blaming God for everything that's wrong in life!
What is so obviously wrong with the naturalist worldview is their intellectual blindness. Of course God could make a world that operates by itself without needing His hand to move the sun or cause rain to fall from the sky. Of course, God could make the human body adapt to it's environments and heal itself without His constant intervention. Pointing out that nature can operate on it's own "without a God" is like saying "a car can run on it's own without the manufacturer constantly needing to intervene".
The unjustifiable blind suffering we see in the world is more evidence on the absent of God. The bible God very conveniently seems to has no intention to manifest in reality other to illiterate Jewess once upon a time. Christians apologetics is nothing more than excuses on absence of God like a mother will always think her son innocent no matter the evidence on the contrary. But in some point we must understand when you don't see nothing then is nothing there to see not name it invisible.
Why dont you respond to the arguments theologians have made for the last 2000 years on suffering. With regards to "manifest in reality" there continues to be miracles. What evidence would you accept?
@kgouws asks why a god of power not use that power to protect the innocent? OK as I.m neither scholar nor psychoanalyst, I'll answer it the way I personally see it. If God does not use his powers to protect the innocent, then equally one might ask why God does not use his powers to stop perpetrators from harming innocent people? If he did use his powers as you ask, then we may well consider ourselves as being in paradise! No police, no crime, no prisons, no courts, just pure blissful paradise!!
Farvision, I think the fact that you and Matheraut provide such facile answers to the question of hope without God means that you have not thought deeply about this. (That is not to say that hope without God is not possible.) Also, perhaps I am wrong and you have. Your pithy responses her on the subject are in stark contrast to the thoughts of great thinkers like Sartre, Camus and Nietzsche. But maybe I'm just being absurd.
""Then again, your only definition of 'hope' is that you'll have your greed for immortality sated, and all of the people who disagree with you will burn, right?". Ad Hominem 2" That is closer to a strawman. In this case, a statement made in ironic ridicule of the traditional creationist belief of heaven, hell, and justice. So yes, LOL is appropriate.
"Farvision, I think the fact that you and Matheraut provide such facile answers to the question of hope without God means that you have not thought deeply about this" Facile? If you're disappointed than an explanation of hope outside of god doesn't exactly require much, well...sorry to say, but that should tell you something about the concept of hope with your god. It is not such a profound thing.
(Cont) "Then again, your only definition of 'hope' is that you'll have your greed for immortality sated, and all of the people who disagree with you will burn, right?". Ad Hominem 2. And utter nonsense to boot. But as you say, LOL.
@TYLERJB777, Per his statements Dawkins does not hate religious people, he hates religion as he considers them evil. Interesting you bring the word "afraid" as ironically it's mentioned is the Bible that you have to fear God. Atheist don't believe in N gods. Christians are atheists too in a way, since they don't believe in N-1 gods, in which N is a very large number composed by all gods of the present, the past, the future, from other planets, and the rest that are unknown.
Several very hot summer days are always followed by a massive thunder storm and what happens ? IT COOLS THE PLACE DOWN It's true not all natural diasters are weather, but they all shape the earth, eg. the Hawaiian islands are all the result of undersea volcanic activity.
Astounding John. You are so gifted at representing our Christian faith, a true gift from God. Your purpose on earth is clear to see.
I share your total faith. Your references to His Word through the Holy Bible, your intelligent and logical answers to difficult questions is astounding, and joy and peace at knowing and having a relationship with our Creator and Redeemer, radiates from you, and is a joy to see
Nothing in the athiestic world view comes close to explaining while we are here, why we have value, and the peace and comfort this brings to believers.
God is amazing, and you, Mr Lennox are serving Him wonderfully well, I am in awe of your gift from Him who made us and who loves us unconditionally.
God bless you, and thank you. ❤️🙏❤️
Brilliantly stated John, that silence you hear is atheists who are trying to come up with an answer, they have none they never have, they just look to tell someone they are wrong.
that's because there is no answer. religious people like to fabricate one that's totally implausible but that makes them feel warm and cozy.
@@onsenguy I’d feel a lot more cosy if I was convinced that I will not be held accountable for my actions, which is the atheist world view. I could go about stealing, killing, and committing evil acts because the only thing that I have to look forward to is death.
If you are an atheist, you are incapable of condemning evil with your ideology. Simple as.
@@instrumentofdivinejustice4570 as a freethinker myself, I don't believe there's a celestial policeman watching over me, yet I do not commit evil acts and I don't harm anyone, steal, or kill. I consider myself more open-minded, respectful, and considerate to others than most people. I imagine that must be difficult to digest for someone who was taught that we can only be good if we're superstitious or believe in the supernatural.
@@onsenguy I understand where you’re coming from, but how do you know you’re not committing evil acts? What reference do you use for the line between good and evil?
If there is no celestial policeman, it seems to me that poses a problem for the existence of morality or truth in the first place. What do you think?
@@MrChris4251 this is a common fallacy among religious thinkers. the reality is that the moral precepts of religion, such as "thou shalt not kill" or "thou shalt not steal" have been around long before christianity or any of the major world religions. a society where theft and murder are common is inconvenient to everyone. also, if you look at the regions in the world that have the lowest amount of religious belief, such as the scandanavian countries, new zealand, australia, and canada, these areas have a lower rate of theft and murder than most other countries. this simple example shows there is no link between religious belief and abstaining from theft or murder. the prisons are NOT filled with atheists and freethinkers.
Thank you!
Because Jesus Christ rose from the dead we can grasp hold of it with all of our mind and soul and strength! Praise be to God!
Yes! The crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ of Nazareth is at the very center of Christianity. Praise His holy name.
And you know he rose from the dead how exactly?
@@mcmanustony why do you not believe it?
@@simonbrown1486 The lack of evidence.
@@simonbrown1486 the same reason you don’t believe Mohammed ascended to heaven on a winged horse
Be bless … my friend or hoping to be 🙏🏼🙌🏼🔥✝️
With or without religion humanity suffers for without suffering it would not exist. It has come through to the present precisely because it can learn from suffering how to cope with it. Suffering is an essential and unavoidable part of animal life.
awesome, john!
I bet he says everything you want him to say, if he told you things you didn't agree with he wouldn't be so awesome, would he?
Thank you very much for that insightful analysis of the argument :)
I bet he says everything you want him to say, if he told you things you didn't agree with he wouldn't be so insightful, would he?
.."removes all hope of justice." Amazing point
It's about time you conceded a bloody point :-)
I believe inquiries into the nature of justice and hope are always relevant, whether expressed in a theistic or atheistic context.
Many people of religions other than my own have quite different hopes to those that I have, but I would only very rarely (and in exceptional circumstances) try to take that hope away from them.
Would I want Christianity (or any other religion) to ever be lost to humanity? Not at all.
And the same goes for atheism.
youre welcome. Im glad someone found it truthful and funny.
John Lenox is my HERO!!!!.... and William Lane Craig...
razorpayne13 mine too :)
He is a truly gifted servant of our God.
@@beemer2869 I take Christian claims about problem of evil and suffering and respond to them by changing general "evil" into particular sort of evil, for example "child rape". So, when someone says "evil and suffering exist so that we could appreciate good times", I translate that to "child rape exists so that children can appreciate times when they are not raped". "Evil exists because God respects free Will"="child rape exists because God respects free will of the rapist". "Evil exist so that we could be tested and closer to God"="Child rape exists so that children could be tested and closer to God".
@@goranmilic442 ok....are you trying to make a point against Christianity or point out a specific issue with the answer you've been given from some who claim to be Christians?
@@barendse1 I am making a point against a claim that there is a god that is both all-powerful and all-good.
The problem of evil and suffering does not disprove God's existence. But it does raise serious doubts bout God's nature. It makes it very difficult to believe that there is an all-powerful and all- good God.
the humans themselves brought suffering and dead in the world as they sinned - GOD did not created it at the beginning and determinded them to live in this circle - what GOD created was a free will and the consequence of the free will is often, that a second, third, fourth, fifth person has to suffer, if person number 1 decided to to something evil. for example, if person 1 is greedy and irresponsible, than he maybe starts poisoning nature to gain resources and thousands to millions of other persons will get very ill cause of the destruction of nature. of course thats just 1 simple example. to oversee the consequences of an action of a human being is almost impossible (butterfly effect), multiply that to billions of people with billions of actions per life. plus in addition the angels also got a free will, and according to christian teaching the devil was one of them. also well created, but decided to fight against GOD, he also makes use of his free will - and uses it to live out his hatred against mankind. Limits were and are set for him, but no human being can judge from the outside where these are, only God knows.
Stunning.
I bet he says everything you want him to say, if he told you things you didn't agree with he wouldn't be so stunning, would he?
The extremely likely truth is that there are no gods. So do what you do and if it fails then so be it. If it succeeds, then so be it. If you are drowning, struggle to survive until all is lost or you win. That is 'hope'.
Obviously I reserve my careful writing for publications, not for conversations on youtube.
The only answer I can give is the one I already gave at the start - when God created the world it was good and the sin of man cursed the earth and everything that's ugly came after that. If that's not enough, Then we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Amen.
Cool - a very interesting subject.
The foundation on which all science builds is faith. Faith that the universe is rational, faith that our minds are rational, and faith that the rationality of our minds mirrors the rationality of the universe. The worst thing about atheism is that its apposed to rationality; it gives no justification for believing science.
Don’t give ppl a situation that they don’t have a choice but to do it anyway, it is so hard to do when u don’t like what you r doing
"Hope, Justice." Great, babies die in agony, but there's hope and justice. You are right, Atheism doesn't say your child died in agony but there's hope to see her in the afterlife, because it says there's Reality. Agony, pain, suffering is all around - that's Reality, no sticking loving gods into the equation.
Designed suffering will always be an insurmountable problem for theism
dont worry ppl!! christ died on the cross!! dont worry about your suffering! hallelujah !!
John Lennox discusses the problem of being insufferably pompous. What a lovely humble Christian.
Why PROFESSOR John Lennox. His academic career was in mathematics- perhaps the only damn subject I've never heard him address....
The Christian world view tells us the reason we can do science. The reason we can understand the exterior universe with our interior minds, is because ultimately by what ever processes go back to rationality on God.
my goodness..what a glib, specious, unctuous rationalization of suffering.
Amen!
I'm impressed by John Lennox's open mindedness. He has explored some of the issues, to look at both sides. His view might be tolerable if everyone was going to a happily ever after. I have faith & hope that there is no hades [ would people meet the Titans there?] , to cease to exist seems ok to me; this was the fate which the Hebrews imagined Yahweh had in mind for them- sheol-non existence.
12 years late to the discussion, but I would push back that ALL Hebrews imagined that Yahweh had a non-existence in mind for them. Perhaps some believed that, but we see the Book of Job that the eponymous speaker says, "I know that my redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand on the earth. And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God; I myself will see him with my own eyes-I, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!" Job 19:25-27.
Too, we see King David respond when his son from his adulterous affair with Bathsheba dies, that he is confident, "He will not go to me, but I will go to him." He doesn't say, "I will be cease to exist like him." Clearly, King David anticipated some sort of reunion with the person of his son, and how else would he know that it is his son unless his son is able to somehow retain his individual nature?
@@sidwhiting665 ok you've got a point there that there were some who hoped to be immortal, existence beyond death. Well the ancient Egyptian kings hoped for an existence after death or why would they put material objects to help them in the here after. There were probably an assortment of ideas in every tribe about what happens when we die. A universalist view would be , "Wouldn't a loving competent god make sure no hell existed or if it had would have taken measures to totally undo it?" In a way Christianity says there was a problem but it is fixed now.
God bless you too, if there is one, which I doubt.
He gave no answer to the problem of suffering, except to admit that there is none. So you are just left with faith.
Only God is perfect,
Creation is not God,
: Creation is imperfect.
Well put 🙌🏽👏🏽
So where did we get this other capacity to figure out not only what helps our genes to make it into the nest generation, but also to understand what is going on in the world? To put it another way what is the survival value of truth itself?
I can accept that, but it is not 'hope' in the usual sense of the word.
No, it was directed at bushfingers, in response to his personal attack.
It seems to have appeared below your comment due to how youtube organizes these things.
He implies this in the statement that 'Atheism removes all hope of justice'. It is at the height of imply that Justice either does not exist, or is not possible outside of belief in your particular brand of god.
To think like you I would have to believe that, nothing produces everything, non life produces life, randomness produces information, unconsciousness produces consciousness and non-reason produces reason. I would have to believe in existence with a creator, order without intelligence , laws without a legislator and design with out a designer.This wouldrequire a blind leap of Faith that I am not willing take.
Hey, bushfingers. I hope you got the email I sent. It's little more than a suggested list of topics we might discuss, but the question of "hope in the absence of God" (or, much more to the point, I think, "in the absence of an afterlife") is one I had overlooked and seems an excellent addition. It is also I suspect the only point on which we are likely in large part to agree.
"death is not the end"
this doesn't solve the problem of evil because it doesn't take animal suffering into account....unless he believes all animals have an afterlife.
Isaiah chapter 11 depicts animals, both predator and prey, living in peace in Heaven. He likely does believe in animals having an after life.
@@instrumentofdivinejustice4570define what you mean with "peace" when a "loving" god can drown innocent babies, infants, children, pregnant women, elderly, handicapped people and lets not forget every other animal over a small village of people in the desert exersizing their freewill which he supposedly gave to them knowing beforehand how they would act.
I dont think you know what peace is nor loving.
Balsamo para el alma
Unfortunately, we know that when the brain dies the person's consciousness dies too. So there is no possibility of an afterlife or reuniting with our loved ones. It's not a happy ending I know, but it's the truth.
His answer for everything else s the resurrection of Jesus, a man that most likely didn't exist.
true
For the truth about religion try Robert M. Price, ' The reason driven life ' or John W. Loftus or Victor J. Stenger, ' God, the failed hypothesis' . Also interesting to have a look at the 1500BCE papyrus of Ani, with its god Osiris who weighs the heart to decide who can pass to the land of the living.[ The need to know the names of the gods & the negative confession & other magic texts to get there]. James Frazer's 'The Golden Bough' and C.S. Lewis, 'Mere Christianity'
The evidence is in the millions and millions of lives that have been transformed into good for the glory of God and the Love and Power with in each them to endure great hardship and suffering with REAL HOPE Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. ( We do not see Abba Father, The Holy Spirit or Christ Yeshua in the flesh but we can clearly see the evidence of their handy work all around us each day..... John 14:27
big john has also dismissed the problem of over eating..amen
Absurdism is a central element of existentialism (see the above mentioned philosophers for examples).
Agreed, that Justice and Hope are open-ended concepts, that aren't so easily defined (Justice is blind, yes?).
Thinking of it in one sense or another isn't so bad...but to say that it doesn't exist outside of faith?
That is ridiculous.
How would you explain the origin of a finite universe from a timeless cause???
Please could you give me a better explanation for the incredible fine tuning of the universe to sustain intelligent life, other than a creator? Steven Hawkings says this "If the rate of expansion one second after the big bang had been smaller by even one part in a hundred thousand million million, the universe would have recollapased before it reached its present size." .
Okay, please tell me about hope in the absence of God. I really would like to find out more.
Atheists have no hope...
...and the reason is?
Bc atheists have not absolute moral... but subjective morality. ... if i.e. hurting others makes you happy,, then me I cannot prove that what you're doing is wrong. Who judges what is good or bad...
Did you know. Atheist dictators killed the most in past centuries
.. look it up
I'd say that's the number one go to, atheist belief about suffering, is to turn away from God, but it is interesting to me that they kinda beleive without knowing it , by turning away from what they disapprove of, God, God's ways, the allowing of suffering, they are angry at him, and I feel they are ANGRY, really angry at what they think if as a real God, cause otherwise if you don't believe in God, what are you angry about, don't waste your energy or get mad at the human with free will that's actually doing it.
cant hate natural forces for being mindless and indifferent. but you can hate god for being mindful and indifferent.
Let me help you.
"If you honestly don't have the determination or will to find strength outside of your mental cage, then by all means, stay inside of it."
That's ad hominem.
"Don't claim that there is no hope outside of God. Plenty without God have hope, dreams, and aspirations.".
That's begging the question, because the whole point under consideration is the nature of 'hope' without God.
Should read:
'It is the height of arrogance to imply that Justice either does not exist, or is not possible outside of belief in your particular brand of god.'
"Was this a cheap prod to cull my interest?"
Was this addressed to me, Mathenaut?
I wasn't alluding to you at all with my phrase "slobbering bovine stupidity" and none of my ammo was marked for yo to begin with.
Sorry if it appeared otherwise.
Lennox is assuming naturalism eliminates “all” hope when it does Not. One can actually have hope in “statistics” because we’re all subject to the natural laws of the universe. And the things in nature are in a constant state of change. Meaning one person’s predicament is “bound” to change merely from a statistical viewpoint. That change may not be to our liking (such as aging) but it’s still “change” and could be bad or good. In fact that’s the “true” basis of hope. That the odds might work in our favor. One doesn’t need to believe in a god for hope. One problem though is hoping for realistic results based upon what’s known about the “real” world and Not the supernatural of which no one can know.
suffering is listening to your baloney you seem to know everything about god good for you professor
Hi polymath7. I did receive your email - thanks. I'll reply in the next few days.
I think we will agree on more than you may now believe. But we shall have to see :-)
I didn't really get the idea that you admire him -given your apparent intelligence this seemed unlikely- I just wanted to ascertain this was not the case.
And I have read enough of your comments to know that you are a nice and extremely fair-minded guy, and assure you I quite understand your difficulty in resisting the urge to become vituperative in the face of slobbering bovine stupidity. I can be almost brutally tactless myself -frequently to my own regret.
Hope to hear from you soon.
Where ignorance is bliss religion thrives.
Scientists who are religious were made religious before they became scientists.
we all make mistakes end assumptions !!!!
im sorry its just 99% of those comments are made by people who dont want a
debate/argue about the subject but rather try to make religious people look weak
you dont have to get angry
god bless
Well said. With all the evidence in the world, some people will still turn away from Him. They can't see beyond the here and now, they don't have vision or hope, instead pride stands in the way.
Sadly, you can lead a horse to the water, but you can't make it drink.
Fair enough.
In the field of evolutionary biology?
@kgouws asks if John Lennox did not address the issue of God protecting the innocent from suffering. Well, maybe he did. He could have addressed this issue in any one of this other debates and /or books. Be that as it may, the Bible relates to stories where he did just that. The story of the leper comes to mind. There were numerous others. The question you may ask why them and not others? That's a question I cannot answer. But it does tell me how powewrful he is
Dear polymath7
Some of his arguments are better than others. But where do get the idea that I admire him? - I don't think I have mentioned him once in any of my comments.
I don't normally write directly insulting comments like I did above, but sometimes I just can't help myself when faced with dismal stupidity.
Evil and suffering does not prove that God doesn't exist.
It proves that god is evil.
Nature is cruel and merciless and so is the god of the Bible.
The words you use, evil and merciful indicate you have a moral standard. You can’t have one outside of God’s ordered universe. You’re just a blob of cells. I am too. In a world where God doesn’t exist we should be completely apathetic towards the sufferings around us, but yet we’re not. We see injustice and suffering and have righteous indignation over it, because we were made in the image of a loving creator.
Yep, that's it - I fell for a nasty trick. You see, I'm very stupid and am therefore easily tricked. I will try to extricate myself from this terrible trap of ignorance.
No he isnt because he gave his creation (us) the ability to do what we want. I.E. free will. He is no more responsible for the choices of a human being, than a parent is for their adult childs.
who says atheist represent the main line of reason is sadly mistaken.
Well, the Bible says that when God created the world it was good. It was the sin of mankind that created disease and suffering. We abused the gift of free will, basically.
Darwinist philosopher Michael Ruse writes this, Why should a bunch of atoms have thinking ability? Why should I, even as I write now, be able to reflect on what I am doing and why should you even as you read now, be able to ponder my points, agreeing or disagreeing, with pleasure or pain, deciding to refute me or deciding that I am just not worth the effort? No one, certainly not the Darwinian as such, seems to have any answer to this.The point is that there is no scientific answer.
The main "Blank" that John failed to "fill in," in this discussion on why God allows tremendous suffering revolves around three individuals two of who lived in "The Space-Time Continuum." These three individuals were Adam and Eve..... and of course Satan, who took on the form of a serpent.... in "the Space-Time Garden of Eden." This is not Green Mythology.... or any other Mythology.... but it is actual and real 'Space and real Time." When The Serpent was able to trick Eve, and then she was able to trick Adam, into disbelieving God's Reality and the Truth concerning The Tree which contained "The Fruit" (which wasn't an Apple) of the knowledge of good and evil, "Evil, Sin and Death" was unleashed into God's "Perfect World" due to Adam and Eve's disbelief and their disobedience. Consequently, that unleashing has brought these three horrific aspects into all Human Existence, and we are left with the consequences of their disobedience... which played directly into Satan's Plan. So...... God is not to blame, has never been to blame, and never will be to blame, for all of the evil, pain and suffering and death in our world...... and that is why He sent His "Only Begotten Son, Jesus" (John 3:16-17) into this world so that whosoever has surrendered to Him, and humbly acknowledged Jesus' "Payment for each person's individual sin" and also for "Mankind's General Sin," shall be saved. Here's "The Kicker:" The arrogant pride of most people simply won't accept Jesus' Sacrifice and payment for their sins..... because as John wrote in the opening lines of his Gospel of Jesus, "Men loved darkness rather than light.... they loved and still love their sin, instead of loving the light and forgiveness of God through Jesus' life, death, burial and resurrection! The Bottom Line: God has never been responsible for human suffering...... Adam and Eve... and each of us are responsible... down through the ages of human History...... Amen. Ted Schempp, Nashville
I don't know if there is lottery ticket in your pocket right now. I am therefore agnostic about its existence. But I still hope that you win the lottery, if there is a lottery ticket in your pocket.
Me saying "God bless you, if there is one" is just like that. If there is an all powerful, all knowing, all good being, I hope it takes good care of your affairs. But I am afraid there is no evidence for such a belief.
I hope this clarified the confusion. Have a nice day.
@jason5332 No. Christians hate Dawkins so much, because he appears to be quite nice guy with a peaceful appearance, instead of having a long tail, tridend and spliting around with ignited sulphur. It's hard to convince the flock that they should afraid of an older man.
If John Lennox is convinced he can put all his life and all his trust in life and that of others into the resurrection of Jesus, for which there is no other positive evidence than some ancient scribblings apparently, then you can't touch him. He does this wilfully and consciously, because you cannot definitely disprove his claim. Thus, he can go to church safely and not feel lonely.
way when the atoms inside of my skull happen for physical or chemical reasons to arrange them selfs into a certain way this gives me, as a by-product, the sensation I call thought. But if so, how can I trust my own thinking to be true? And if I cant trust my own thinking, I cant trust the argument leading to atheism, and therefore I have no reason to be an atheist. Unless I believe in God, I cant believe in thought, so I can never use thought to disbelieve God.
@kgouws If he created the universe then he must be all powerful. But what I understand from scriptures He even created Heaven where I believe there will be no pain or suffering. He gave us a free will and has put us to the test by provide us with a moral set of rules & principles. If we live within those parameters, which I have no problem with, then there is no reason why we will not be rewarded with alife without sin or Satan. Shouls one despise him for that? No I don't think so.
So you have hope in suffering because you THINK some guy rose from the dead? We don't even know if he fully died and definitely can't prove he rose from the dead. Even if he DID rise from the dead, does not prove there is an afterlife or "hope after death."
Ophelia McGraw - of course he died. Roman, Jewish and Greek historians like Josephus, Tacitus and Pliny the Younger (just to name a few) recorded it in the 1st century and they weren't Christians. There is not one professor from a credible university of ancient history, theology or biblical studies anywhere in the world that disputes that Jesus walked the earth and died. The 1st century historians also recorded that early Christians were tortured, persecuted and killed because they said that they saw Jesus after he rose from the dead. Why would someone allow themselves to killed when all that they had to say was 'I was only joking' - because they did see him rise from the dead of course!
And you top it off by saying - "even if he did rise from the dead it doesn't prove that there is an afterlife" - the bible says that some people will never believe no matter how many miracles they see because their heart has been hardened and they don't want to know God and you are one of them. If he rose from the dead and said he was God chances are he is God - so when he says that there is an afterlife I'll believe him, period!
If a loving creator went through all that effort then it seems a waste to condemn billions of us to hell because he hasn't demonstrated beyond a doubt that he even exists. It is slightly odd that sending his Son over 2000 years ago in an obscure part of the middle East with shakey evidence is the best he could do.
a creature powerful enough to create the laws of physics and galaxies wouldn't give a rats a** about us pathetic humans, and most certainly wouldn't care what we do while naked or what we choose to eat. obviously he didn't think much of us, considering he made us nearly identical to a chimpanzee. oh and to the evolution doubters--from comparative anatomy and dna all competent biologists worldwide would concur that we're roughly 98% chimp.
I'm an agnostic as far as the pink unicorns. I dont think you understand what I mean by God. I mean a unique, personal, plural, spiritual, eternally self-existent, transcendent, immanent, omniscient, immutable, holy, loving being, the creator and ruler of the entire universe and the judge of all mankind. The God I believe in is over and above all things, outside of time and space, completely distinct from the universe, and not to be confused with anything in it.
Why is there suffering in the world? because of sin.
Josue Hernandez then the relevant question is; why is there sin?
If you say “because Adam and Eve”, then have I got some news for you; Adam and Eve didn’t exist. Evolution is a fact.
"It is a fact that evolution happens; that biodiversity and complexity do increase, and that both occur naturally, only by evolutionary means.
It is also a fact that alleles vary with increasing distinction in reproductive populations, and that these are accelerated in genetically isolated groups.
It is a fact that natural selection, sexual selection, and genetic drift have all been proven to have predictable effect in guiding this variance.
It is a fact that significant beneficial mutations do occur and are inherited by descendent groups, and that multiple independent sets of biological markers exist to trace these lineages back over many generations.
It is a fact that birds are a subset of dinosaurs in the same way that humans are a subset of apes, primates, and eutherian mammals, and that both groups are subsets of vertebrate deuterostome animals.
It is a fact that the collective genome of all animals has been traced to its most basal form, and that those forms are also indicated by comparative morphology, physiology, and embryological development.
It is a fact that every animal on earth has definite relatives either living nearby or evident in the fossil record and indicated in phylogenetics.
It is a fact that the fossil record holds hundreds of transitional species, even according to the strictest definition of that term.
And it is a fact that micro evolution and macro evolution have both been directly observed."
-Aron Ra
Facts of evolution:
ruclips.net/video/eGmLDKQp_Qc/видео.htmlm44s
ruclips.net/video/5MXTBGcyNuc/видео.htmlm40s
ruclips.net/video/Dm277H3ot6Y/видео.htmlm29s
ruclips.net/video/_r0zpk0lPFU/видео.htmlm41s
ruclips.net/video/99-wZZqOPMw/видео.htmlm17s
ruclips.net/video/0qCa0-aah1k/видео.htmlm58s
ruclips.net/video/99-wZZqOPMw/видео.htmlm9s
ruclips.net/video/qS-pZnS-m58/видео.htmlm
ruclips.net/video/jUuQ18RXOyg/видео.htmlm50s
ruclips.net/video/isV9hWXpNjc/видео.htmlm47s
But if you ignore this, then I’ve got some other news for you; humans don’t have freewill:
ruclips.net/p/PLkYjGll0E2OAN9pA7qAsZj-LTewqMDpro
So our desire and choices to sin are not our fault. You may say “well, we may not have free will, but Adam and Eve did.” Of course, they also had the desire to disobey that they didn’t choose to possess. So where did the sin come from? Satan? Why was Satan’s power able to condemn us to sin? Why weren’t we made immune from Satan’s influence? And why was Satan made to have the desire to condemn us to sin?
All roads lead back to the creator, Josue. Ultimately, if Christianity is true, then the god of Christianity is directly responsible for all sin and thus all suffering, and thus he is either not all powerful, not aware that his actions would result in this suffering, or is not all loving. Of course the simplest solution to this is that he doesn’t exist in the first place.
so many prophesy came true en much good info about creation of the universe
en how it functions en much more info about life it self
its incredible but scientist just now are catching up to GOD who is all knowing
please people bee a little open-minded you really think
everything came here by chance ??? now that takes FAITH
trust fear en praise HIM
for bad people will get punished like Hitler en bin laden
en good faithful people will get mercy en grace AMEN
i cant wait for THE LORD TO RETURN
"Your pithy responses her on the subject are in stark contrast to the thoughts of great thinkers like Sartre, Camus and Nietzsche"
Pithy because they are Pithy? Pithy because they so easily dismiss the notion of your god? Pithy because you want the notion to be more profound than it really is?
To compare our answers to the likes of other thinkers and claim that they are weak by contrast, solely in being contrasted, is fallacious.
"But maybe I'm just being absurd."
Understatement.
@TYLERJB777 If there's no positive evidence to support your claim then I have no reason at all to believe its valid. I'm very curious what is your evidence (more like excuse) to sustain your assertion...
@kgouws Yes maybe....
If you don't believe in a God, then you contradict yourself in saying "God bless you." Adding "if there is one" to your statement doesn't make it any less confusing.
@TYLERJB777 But you won't reveal a single of it, ofcourse...
Like all weather they regulate temperature. That's why life exists on earth and not on other planets in the solar system, which are either too hot or too cold. Please, do some research and stop blaming God for everything that's wrong in life!
What is so obviously wrong with the naturalist worldview is their intellectual blindness. Of course God could make a world that operates by itself without needing His hand to move the sun or cause rain to fall from the sky. Of course, God could make the human body adapt to it's environments and heal itself without His constant intervention. Pointing out that nature can operate on it's own "without a God" is like saying "a car can run on it's own without the manufacturer constantly needing to intervene".
The unjustifiable blind suffering we see in the world is more evidence on the absent of God.
The bible God very conveniently seems to has no intention to manifest in reality other to illiterate Jewess once upon a time.
Christians apologetics is nothing more than excuses on absence of God like a mother will always think her son innocent no matter the evidence on the contrary.
But in some point we must understand when you don't see nothing then is nothing there to see not name it invisible.
Why dont you respond to the arguments theologians have made for the last 2000 years on suffering. With regards to "manifest in reality" there continues to be miracles. What evidence would you accept?
@@randomperson-gp8ph there are no miracles, just unsubstantiated claims. christians have nothing but stories and assertions, no evidence
@kgouws asks why a god of power not use that power to protect the innocent? OK as I.m neither scholar nor psychoanalyst, I'll answer it the way I personally see it. If God does not use his powers to protect the innocent, then equally one might ask why God does not use his powers to stop perpetrators from harming innocent people? If he did use his powers as you ask, then we may well consider ourselves as being in paradise! No police, no crime, no prisons, no courts, just pure blissful paradise!!
Farvision, I think the fact that you and Matheraut provide such facile answers to the question of hope without God means that you have not thought deeply about this. (That is not to say that hope without God is not possible.) Also, perhaps I am wrong and you have.
Your pithy responses her on the subject are in stark contrast to the thoughts of great thinkers like Sartre, Camus and Nietzsche.
But maybe I'm just being absurd.
Molecular biology.
""Then again, your only definition of 'hope' is that you'll have your greed for immortality sated, and all of the people who disagree with you will burn, right?". Ad Hominem 2"
That is closer to a strawman. In this case, a statement made in ironic ridicule of the traditional creationist belief of heaven, hell, and justice. So yes, LOL is appropriate.
"Farvision, I think the fact that you and Matheraut provide such facile answers to the question of hope without God means that you have not thought deeply about this"
Facile? If you're disappointed than an explanation of hope outside of god doesn't exactly require much, well...sorry to say, but that should tell you something about the concept of hope with your god. It is not such a profound thing.
(Cont)
"Then again, your only definition of 'hope' is that you'll have your greed for immortality sated, and all of the people who disagree with you will burn, right?". Ad Hominem 2. And utter nonsense to boot.
But as you say, LOL.
If religious fairy tales can fool Dr. John Lennox, imagine what it could do to ordinary folks.
@TYLERJB777,
Per his statements Dawkins does not hate religious people, he hates religion as he considers them evil.
Interesting you bring the word "afraid" as ironically it's mentioned is the Bible that you have to fear God.
Atheist don't believe in N gods. Christians are atheists too in a way, since they don't believe in N-1 gods, in which N is a very large number composed by all gods of the present, the past, the future, from other planets, and the rest that are unknown.
Several very hot summer days are always followed by a massive thunder storm and what happens ? IT COOLS THE PLACE DOWN
It's true not all natural diasters are weather, but they all shape the earth, eg. the Hawaiian islands are all the result of undersea volcanic activity.