*Support What We Do at The Katz-Moses Store* bit.ly/KMWstore20 *BitsBits is the BEST place to buy router bits:* bit.ly/BitsBits USE CODE *JKATZMOSES15 for 15% off* Mega Flush Trim Bit Part#: W-UDC9112
Hi Jonathan, I am looking for the flush trim bit with the spiral up / down cut but I can't find it. Do you have a link where I can order one or a name to look for?
Just recently started working with a shop that hires people that have zero experience working in a wood shop. We introduced the router table today and I asked them to watch this video before beginning to use it. You have put together an excellent video. Thanks
About a year or so ago I was working on a project where it was an absolute pain to get close to the template and I just wanted to get the project over with. I tried taking too much material off at the end grain and the bit had caught the wood and pulled my hand into the bit. It hurt A LOT, but fortunately for me the wound wasn’t very big, just painful. It had fully healed after maybe about 1 week or a little longer. It was definitely a wake up call for me because I know it could have been MUCH worse. Everyone please be safe and take your time before you make a cut you’re uncomfortable with. I 100% agree with getting spiral bits over straight bits. I understand they cost more but they are well worth the money and definitely safer. I’m sure if I had just paid the little extra, I wouldn’t have hurt myself.
Had almost the exact same accident. Trying to remove too much material and the kickback threw my hand into the router bit,,, Lost half my left index finger!! I tell everyone I meet now ''You don't take shortcuts!!''
The generous explanation here is that you are misinformed. The fact is, every kick back that you showed was caused by "climb cutting". Even though you were cutting in a conventional direction, you were not removing all of the material up to the template. This left material behind the cut which allowed a climb cut situation. If you are going to talk about safety then you have a responsibility to be correct. Every other explanation that you gave was secondary or irrelevant.
Great book for a beginner . ruclips.net/user/postUgkxD-QRFQz730FJEh4f9BYSf-nkIMIC9hL_ this book really starts from the beginning, as in it explains what basic tools are and how to use them. But when it gets to the art of creating joints and how and when to use them this book really starts to teach you something. At least that was my experience.
I'm used to larger, corded routers ruclips.net/user/postUgkxfQ5_mgwq6PcudJvAH25t-I4D-3cTPz4z so this was a different experience for me. Basically, this is an incredibly sweet machine, fits well in the hand, etc. It has slightly less power than I'm used to, but that's understandable. Maneuvering freehand takes some practice. These days, it's especially nice to be able to avoid power cords. This is above the level of a hobbyist but below a pro level.
The failure point causing the kick-back in your video samples is due to the lack of holding the workpiece. I would recommend using a Router Shield to get a better attachment point of the template. The template will need to be attached to the top side of the workpiece and the template is attached to the bottom side of the router shield. You can configure a template to the bottom side of the work piece and attach spacer blocks to the top side of the workpiece which attach to the Router Shield. Please note the bit rotation. The majority of router bits available are for clockwise rotation. When the router is inverted in a router table, the bit rotation will be counterclockwise. This means that the workpiece must be fed to the left side of the router bit. Pre-cutting the workpiece is very beneficial. However, proper attachment of the template is important to ensure a proper copy of the template. With that said, properly holding and feeding of the workpiece into the bit is also essential. A Router Shield will completely change how you use a router table. You can purchase a Router Shield from mobile solutions.
After the tablesaw, I consider the router table to be my most dangerous tool in the shop. And this video shows why. I have experienced more ... well ... change your drawers ... moments at the router table than at the tablesaw. Don't let that little bit fool you, it WILL rip a board right out of your hands, and might even take your hands with the board. Thanks for an excellent video.
Great video! I have been trying to explain some of this to my students to help them prevent injury when using our class router. This slow-mo explanation really helps!
The generous explanation here is that you are misinformed. The fact is, every kick back that you showed was caused by "climb cutting". Even though you were cutting in a conventional direction, you were not removing all of the material up to the template. This left material behind the cut which allowed a climb cut situation. If you are going to talk about safety then you have a responsibility to be correct. Every other explanation that you gave was secondary or irrelevant.
The larger bit is also better due to angular velocity. The larger the bit, the faster the outer cutting surface is traveling at the same given RPM. Increases velocity combined with increased mass means the Wood has less of a chance to deflect or displace the bit. I get the bat and truck reference, but needed a few finer details. Great video!
Thanks for this. I did my first flush-trimming last night and it was horrible and scary. This explained both WHY it happened, and what I could do in the future to make it less horrible.
I bought a tabletop router and I had climb out on my first use. It’s been collecting dust since last summer. Thanks for this video, gonna look at at spiral bits and maybe start her back up this weekend! Best router safety video by far!!
You should consider the use of a starting pin in the router table insert plate.It gives some added support and control as the piece comes in contact with the bit.
That's only part of the saying. The entire saying I've heard my whole life in tennessee is "hotter than 2 squirrels cracking in a wool sock on a tin roof in august". And "colder than a well diggers a$$" lol
I have routed for well over 20 years, and only use a straight bit. I rout end grain with no problems, because I make very shallow cuts, and do so very slowly. There was no mention of routing a small piece, which is just what it looked like was being done at the start of the video. My templates, as most people call them, are all two layers of 1/2" plywood glued together, this give a lot more grip when routing - but with something around 3" or so, I either stop routing entirely, or make a jig to hold the piece. Small pieces like that are hard to hold, and will get tossed by the bit pretty easily. It also helps to be slightly afraid of your power tool, it makes you work a lot more carefully.
I really love the fact you took time out to explain this. I Just saved up and got my first routing table and i really needed this video. Now i just need to save up and buy some spiral flush trim bits. Thank you forever grateful.
Thanks for this video. I went back and took my pieces back to my band saw and removed more material like you suggested and my router works smooth as butter now. I still need to save up for that bit you recommend.
This video helped me immensely. I've been getting very frustrated with wood tear out and I didn't know what I was doing wrong. Now I do and I'm ordering one of those mega flush trim bits today. Thank you.
Great video, thanks. A few days ago I was using a spiral bit on a bread knife pattern to clean up the edges. Startled is an understatement for sure. I have a deep reminder of the force generated by a router. The wood hit just below my knuckle and gave me a very deep cut about 3/4” long. After I examined why this happened and saw clearly why. It was an inside corner with too much material and the grain direction was such that was like running your hand against your beard stubble. Of course it was going to kickback. Lesson learned!
Thanks so much for taking the time to film and post this. For newbie woodworkers like myself it's extremely informative and fascinating to watch. Very appreciated!
The generous explanation here is that you are misinformed. The fact is, every kick back that you showed was caused by "climb cutting". Even though you were cutting in a conventional direction, you were not removing all of the material up to the template. This left material behind the cut which allowed a climb cut situation. If you are going to talk about safety then you have a responsibility to be correct. Every other explanation that you gave was secondary or irrelevant.
I love your channel. You (and maybe one or two channels like yours) have helped this office jockey to become proficient enough to fix or build almost anything you would ever need in a house. The hardware store sends you it thanks and love, my wife not so much 😁
Thanks for confirming the mass of the bit makes all the difference. Solid spindle moulder heads are huge, and they plow through material as if it isn't even there. 👍👍👍
I've learned a great deal from your router slow-mo videos and have purchased spiral bits from Bits & Bits and will be ordering more. I am sure my routing will be much better but more importantly SAFER! Thnks much!
This is a great video..and I've had kickback from my router table and it sucks. I've been replacing my Ryobi bits with Infinity bits and I'm way happier with the results.
BTW just want to say I received my Katz-Moses apron a few days ago, flat out love it. I have purchased 3 other aprons over the last couple of years and was never really happy with the fit and/or function. The Katz-Moses apron is the bees knees. Fit and comfort is great, quality of material great and function/ergonomics is right up there with the much more expensive aprons. If any of you are on the fence about buying one, do it. And for those of you who have not received yours yet, honestly it is worth the wait. Thank you!!!
What a fantastic video. Watching this video gives me such a better understanding of the "why" as to how these issues happen. I love spiral cut bits and don't have a problem with the cost because of how well they perform. BitsBits will become my go to for router bits.
Funny how you just posted this video...I was looking into a new router bit like that ultimate bit... But was just blown away by the price... This really puts things into better perspectives for me.
Thanks for taking the time to make and more importantly share these video's. It is really useful getting to see what really happens when your work is going faster than your eye can see. I would also like to take this opportunity to say thank you for my new and very awesome apron which arrived last week.
I have been having kickback with even a spiral bit on a few pieces I was working on last week. These pieces were mostly end grain. The hard part is the edges I needed to flush trim were curved and some pieces were too small for a second grr-rip block. I never found a good way to prevent the kickback. Thankfully I had a friend who had a spindle sander I could use. It seemed safer than the router. I'm not sure what I will do next time I were to cut these pieces with the router.
It looked to me like the template wasn’t riding the bearing in every kick back clip ... as if you were wanting kickback for demonstrations ... knowledge, repetition, concentration, focus, and grip are key elements in safety and preventing kickback... thanks for the video
Excellent information here - illustrates beyond a doubt how much more efficient the cuts are from a spiral bit. Makes me want to see a video of the manufacturing process of that bit that justifies paying more for a bit than a complete DeWalt router kit with 2 bases! Thanks Jonathan
Hey brother if someone is using a stand alone router table like yourself, they should really be using a shaper. You can get some relatively low powered 220v shapers like the one I have. It makes a huge difference. It's rigidity is on another level which lets you take the speed up on those big bits without getting vibration. Also, you can have a pivoting pin as well. That is a must for me when dealing with possible kickback on flush routing end grain areas. The only time I recommend a router over a shaper is when portability is required or you are limited on space and you need to like... Put your router table on your work bench as a combo or something. But there's no reason to have a stand alone router table instead of a shaper. Especially an expensive router setup
Great demo, Jonathan~! Yes, kickback on any tool is frightening in the moment that it occurs, but a router (for me) adds an extra degree of "scari-fication" (lol) because you're usually closer to that spinning bit than with blades on other tools. I've already been using Whiteside bits for a while, but I definitely agree that the Astra-coated bits are great~! Thanks~!!
Stiffness (AKA bending modulus) is proportional to diameter cubed, so a 1/2" router bit shank is 8 times stiffer than a 1/4". Big difference. Sponsorship is all good as long as it's disclosed, as it was in this video.
Jonathan, great video on router kickback and bit types. Great slow-motion video. Thanks for the code as I ordered the "Mega Flush Trim" bit from Bits & Bits!
Everyone is a critic including me. The endurance examples make me ask why anyone wouldn't simply use a chop saw, bandsaw, table saw or circular saw for a end cut to begin with. That said., You imparted information any router operator should have in their awareness and may in fact save them from injury or anyone nearby. Personally I would not use a router for straight across end cuts but I'm recommending this vid to anyone with a router doing wood working. After all said, you taught me a thing about grain as a issue in routing. This vid helps prevent year out, promotes safety which is cheaper that what can result and yes, trying to remove to much is just going to cause trouble for the user n one way, shape or form.
Have you checked your router for runout? At first I thought the straight bit was bent (note the uneven pattern of pitch on the blades) but by the end of the video, I'm not so sure. The ultimate trim bit also seemed to be wobbling in the slow motion shots ... leading me to think you may have a bigger problem. It could be dirt in your collet, or it could be mechanical wear/damage. To test, get a length of 1/2" reamer blank = part 3023A245 from McMaster-Carr. Chuck up the blank and put a dial gauge on it as you turn the router by hand. You'll be able to test different variables: replacement collet, new bearings, etc. until you get your router back in shape.
Thank you so much for this video! Great explanation on all the things I was doing wrong last night. Fortunately after my first tear out incident I gave up on trying to flush cut 4/4 material with a 1/4 spiral bit. Waaaay too much material and it was a piece of IPE which is super hard too. I've since come up with a different mechanism to make the cuts I need much more safely!
I noticed in some of the video that the piece being routed was never in contact with the bearing on the router bit. To me, that is a recipe for disaster. Rough cuts from the band saw, jigsaw, or whatever should (and can) be close enough that you can safely remove the rest of the material in one pass with a router. If you don't keep the guide bearing in contact with the pattern, you are basically trying to freehand the cut, which can result in taking off too much material at one time. Work on your rough-cutting skills so you have minimal material to remove with the router.
Just learning how to use templates to make furniture parts. I attempted to shape the brace that supports the chair arm to the leg of the chair. So far I’ve sent 3 of them across the room. I’ve learned, from your video, that I am not trimming the piece close enough to the template causing the kickback. Thank you for the guidance.
Dude, these router slow mo shots are so cool! i would love to see you frame it even tighter to the cut and shoot at like 50Kfps+ to see those shavings peel off, so cool!
Another point that needs to be addressed is your choice of spiral bits. NEVER use a down-cut spiral flush trim bit in a router table. The down cut helix when inverted will push the workpiece upward. The use of up cut spiral flush trim bits will create a downward force on the workpiece. I have used compression spiral bits on a router table and noticed that they are not very stable for use in a router table and don’t recommend using them unless a router shield is employed.
Ordered the stop-block a week or 2 ago and can't wait to try it out. It looks great on your videos. I even incorporated the t-track for it on my new crosscut sled.
DO Not Ignore the Max rpm marked on these big bits! THE Ultimate flush bit works better at 13-15K than at 18K max. 18K + and it will kick unless very little material. Learned w 8 lb mahogany bass guitar blank flying! No injury, lucky.
Fantastic info dude. I think this one will continue to get traffic throughout all time as people search it after getting router kickback (def not why I’m here watching it….)
on all your examples of kickback you have material on the out feed of the bit! a router cutter cant grab material if it is not there, so if the cutter had stayed against the template and removed said material, then it cant use that material to walk backwards. So when using templates, it is important to match feed rate with material removal, so as to make sure that all of the material has been removed. if this is achieved, then the bit cannot kickback. in saying all that , the up/down spiral cutter is does a beautiful job and leaves a great finish. metal machinists have used this cutter design for years, for good reason . imagine routing without a template , and all the kickback you would encounter. good vid
I've been enjoying your channel and I have struggled with router kickback. I have been somewhat puzzled as to what was happening in the moment and not always sure of the cause. For me, the most relatable thing was not having adequately supported work, and the grain change, but I really couldn't say. I hadn't considered the tool wobble which is also interesting component, but there are two things in this video I don't fully buy into: 1) The comparison between your sever kickback example and the follow-up with the Maple and different bit. I fully agree that bit style and diameter will reduce the occurrence, but the specific wood parts being cut have a grain that seems to be more or less conducive to kickback comparably. The darker wood around 4:00 appears to have a grain thats more perpendicular in the view and is mores intersecting with the straight bit fighting the cut. The maple grain is on a taper easing into the cut. I'm no expert but I think thats part of the difference. I do agree the second bit style should make a greater reduction to kickback, but it would have been better to see that with the same part bit to bit. 2) I have experienced a wobble like you've demonstrated around 3:27. It is pretty severe, and it seems more like it bent bit more than its wobbling around. which I have have had happen. Overall this is good and I appreciate it, but I don't think it's closing the gaps for me on this subject.
Thank you Jonathan for this interesting video, the spyro bit looks phenomenal, and the slow motion helps a lot understanding what’s going on at the router!!!
Thats a cool video and it explains a lot for me. There is more to consider with bit diameter, say 1/2 inch vs 3/4 assuming you kept the rpms constant at an arbitrary 20000rpm then you will have a tip speed (angular velocity) of 12.5m/s for the 1/2 but just under 19m/s on the 3/4 this means less time for each cut and less time between cuts. The addition mass of the bit will help sustain the speed if it hits a hard bit and then as you said the extra rigidity really helps. Can't wait for the next one, nothing like seeing the science behind what we do
Also difference in the thicker router bits to the thinner bit was the height of the positioning of the router. In the thinner bit the height was considerably larger helping to cause movement and flexibility and wasnt using the bearing for guidance on the jig.
An interesting take on it. I’d have liked to see a bit more on the use of fences to at least partly address the problem. Spiral bits look to be a big help, even if they’re very expensive. I was looking at both upward and downward cutting bits but have no idea when you would use one over the other.
Received my apron last week. Super nice fitting and very comfortable even fully loaded. Havent had the chance to put it work yet though. Soon, soon.......
This is so incredibly helpful. I greatly appreciate the explanations based on research, whether it's yours or the papers you've shared on other topics. Testing and sharing, don't stop! Also, couldn't be happier with my new apron. You rock.
Very helpful. Love the slow-mo analysis. Just for those viewers of yours that may have never used a router, you might show a clip or two at normal speed to give them an idea of the incredible RPMs routers produce.
Jonathan, love to see your videos, I am getting my DIY workshop space this coming week, I know most of your stuff is prosumer, which I am not, but I the info is great. Looking to get one of your aprons for Christmas... Cheers from Costa Rica!!!
I was working at a cabinet shop years ago, and my buddy was using a handheld router on a hardwood face frame. He hit a knot, and the router jumped. Unfortunately he was holding the router in a way that let is fingers dip into the router bit. He lost some fingernail and skin off his fingertips, but it wasn't nearly as bad as it could have been.
Feed a router in the wrong direction regardless the amount of material and you will likely end up with a lifetime reminder.. luckily I still have all my fingers.. seemed to me in a lot of the slow mo they were feeding the router in the wrong direction
I take out 3/8th to 1/2 cuts on end grain on 4/4 boards with 3/4 flush trim bits all the time. I also sharpen straight flute bits all the time. Spirals are nice but i can resharpen bits over and over. They usually only need a small kiss with a 1k grit diamond/CBN grinder to make beautiful pencil shavings.
Very impressive results and learning video. And my apron arrived and it is AWESOME it might be the only one in Northern Ireland if so i'm so proud to own it Thanks J K
Got my apron too and it looks like amazing quality. Downside is I must be extra extra extra small because even at the tightest strap settings it still fits me loosely. :/
LoL, you keep calling them "Bits Bits" I started calling them Bits Bits and they corrected me. I wonder how many calls they've received saying, "Hey Bits Bits, I heard about you from Jonathan's RUclips channel" LOL! Awesome video Sir, and I love the ultra slow montion. Thanks for sharing and keep up the awesome content!
I haven't earned my router kick back badge yet. A few months back I had my table saw kick back nightmare realized. "nicked" my finger tip. Angel on my shoulder left me with a flesh only 1/4 inch chunk missing. Healed to the point you'd never know. Long story to say....videos like this are so important for everyone to refocus on safety from procedure and equipment points of view.
I wish somebody smarter than me would invent some realistic simulators that give you an accurate "feel" based on what you do. That way you could experience the points of failure to know how far/fast/hard/etc you can go and still be safe. Cause everyone gets in a hurry at times trying to finish up or meet a deadline or whatever.
I have in a drastic way. I was using a straight bit and making a trench cut. The router was only sticking out of the fence by 3 or so mm. But i need the trench to start near the end so I plunge cut it. But I was right of the pencil line so I gripped the wood piece tightly and moved the wood piece to the right. Going with the rotation. Bad move. The router bit instantly grabbed the wood and shot it to the right and because I had my finger pressing on the and . The end of my finger shot across the router bit. It felt like it got hit by a hammer. I knew what happened as I slowly raised my finger and, Oh shit. The end of the finger was in ribbons. Then the blood just oozed out. I wrapped it tightly as I could. Went to the Doctor but they couldn't sow anything so they wrapped it up nicely. I now have only a tiny bit missing and the feeling was weird for a long time. It really makes me respect my tools more.
Great info. My router table grabbed my work piece and thru it across the room. Needed Two stiches in my thumb and one in my ring finger.is removing too much.
Hey Johno, thanks for all your vid’s mate, been doing some work in the backyard and you are huge help!!! Already picked up a router but from the website, I just had a question with your compression bits on the website, can you remove the bearing and use it to plunge cut?? Cheers for your help.
*Support What We Do at The Katz-Moses Store* bit.ly/KMWstore20
*BitsBits is the BEST place to buy router bits:* bit.ly/BitsBits USE CODE *JKATZMOSES15 for 15% off* Mega Flush Trim Bit Part#: W-UDC9112
Hi Jonathan, I am looking for the flush trim bit with the spiral up / down cut but I can't find it. Do you have a link where I can order one or a name to look for?
It's only 10% off
Just recently started working with a shop that hires people that have zero experience working in a wood shop. We introduced the router table today and I asked them to watch this video before beginning to use it. You have put together an excellent video. Thanks
About a year or so ago I was working on a project where it was an absolute pain to get close to the template and I just wanted to get the project over with. I tried taking too much material off at the end grain and the bit had caught the wood and pulled my hand into the bit. It hurt A LOT, but fortunately for me the wound wasn’t very big, just painful. It had fully healed after maybe about 1 week or a little longer. It was definitely a wake up call for me because I know it could have been MUCH worse. Everyone please be safe and take your time before you make a cut you’re uncomfortable with. I 100% agree with getting spiral bits over straight bits. I understand they cost more but they are well worth the money and definitely safer. I’m sure if I had just paid the little extra, I wouldn’t have hurt myself.
Had almost the exact same accident. Trying to remove too much material and the kickback threw my hand into the router bit,,, Lost half my left index finger!! I tell everyone I meet now ''You don't take shortcuts!!''
The generous explanation here is that you are misinformed. The fact is, every kick back that you showed was caused by "climb cutting". Even though you were cutting in a conventional direction, you were not removing all of the material up to the template. This left material behind the cut which allowed a climb cut situation. If you are going to talk about safety then you have a responsibility to be correct. Every other explanation that you gave was secondary or irrelevant.
Great book for a beginner . ruclips.net/user/postUgkxD-QRFQz730FJEh4f9BYSf-nkIMIC9hL_ this book really starts from the beginning, as in it explains what basic tools are and how to use them. But when it gets to the art of creating joints and how and when to use them this book really starts to teach you something. At least that was my experience.
I'm used to larger, corded routers ruclips.net/user/postUgkxfQ5_mgwq6PcudJvAH25t-I4D-3cTPz4z so this was a different experience for me. Basically, this is an incredibly sweet machine, fits well in the hand, etc. It has slightly less power than I'm used to, but that's understandable. Maneuvering freehand takes some practice. These days, it's especially nice to be able to avoid power cords. This is above the level of a hobbyist but below a pro level.
The failure point causing the kick-back in your video samples is due to the lack of holding the workpiece. I would recommend using a Router Shield to get a better attachment point of the template. The template will need to be attached to the top side of the workpiece and the template is attached to the bottom side of the router shield. You can configure a template to the bottom side of the work piece and attach spacer blocks to the top side of the workpiece which attach to the Router Shield.
Please note the bit rotation. The majority of router bits available are for clockwise rotation. When the router is inverted in a router table, the bit rotation will be counterclockwise. This means that the workpiece must be fed to the left side of the router bit.
Pre-cutting the workpiece is very beneficial. However, proper attachment of the template is important to ensure a proper copy of the template. With that said, properly holding and feeding of the workpiece into the bit is also essential. A Router Shield will completely change how you use a router table. You can purchase a Router Shield from mobile solutions.
After the tablesaw, I consider the router table to be my most dangerous tool in the shop. And this video shows why. I have experienced more ... well ... change your drawers ... moments at the router table than at the tablesaw. Don't let that little bit fool you, it WILL rip a board right out of your hands, and might even take your hands with the board. Thanks for an excellent video.
Great video! I have been trying to explain some of this to my students to help them prevent injury when using our class router. This slow-mo explanation really helps!
The generous explanation here is that you are misinformed. The fact is, every kick back that you showed was caused by "climb cutting". Even though you were cutting in a conventional direction, you were not removing all of the material up to the template. This left material behind the cut which allowed a climb cut situation. If you are going to talk about safety then you have a responsibility to be correct. Every other explanation that you gave was secondary or irrelevant.
The larger bit is also better due to angular velocity. The larger the bit, the faster the outer cutting surface is traveling at the same given RPM. Increases velocity combined with increased mass means the Wood has less of a chance to deflect or displace the bit. I get the bat and truck reference, but needed a few finer details. Great video!
Thanks for this. I did my first flush-trimming last night and it was horrible and scary. This explained both WHY it happened, and what I could do in the future to make it less horrible.
I bought a tabletop router and I had climb out on my first use. It’s been collecting dust since last summer. Thanks for this video, gonna look at at spiral bits and maybe start her back up this weekend! Best router safety video by far!!
You should consider the use of a starting pin in the router table insert plate.It gives some added support and control as the piece comes in contact with the bit.
"Two squirrels humping in a wool sock." This is what keeps me coming back!! 🤣
"...... 2 squirrels humping in a wool sock!!!" AWESOME!!!! 😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂
I had to pause the video till I stopped laughing.
@@rjgaynor8 ditto
That's only part of the saying. The entire saying I've heard my whole life in tennessee is "hotter than 2 squirrels cracking in a wool sock on a tin roof in august". And "colder than a well diggers a$$" lol
That’s something I’ve never heard before
@@humanperson1898
That's ichiro's favorite expression.
I have routed for well over 20 years, and only use a straight bit. I rout end grain with no problems, because I make very shallow cuts, and do so very slowly. There was no mention of routing a small piece, which is just what it looked like was being done at the start of the video. My templates, as most people call them, are all two layers of 1/2" plywood glued together, this give a lot more grip when routing - but with something around 3" or so, I either stop routing entirely, or make a jig to hold the piece. Small pieces like that are hard to hold, and will get tossed by the bit pretty easily. It also helps to be slightly afraid of your power tool, it makes you work a lot more carefully.
I really love the fact you took time out to explain this. I Just saved up and got my first routing table and i really needed this video. Now i just need to save up and buy some spiral flush trim bits. Thank you forever grateful.
Thanks for this video. I went back and took my pieces back to my band saw and removed more material like you suggested and my router works smooth as butter now. I still need to save up for that bit you recommend.
This video helped me immensely. I've been getting very frustrated with wood tear out and I didn't know what I was doing wrong. Now I do and I'm ordering one of those mega flush trim bits today. Thank you.
These videos are why JKM is my favorite. You really dive deep into things about woodworking that no one else really does. Thanks
Great video, thanks. A few days ago I was using a spiral bit on a bread knife pattern to clean up the edges. Startled is an understatement for sure. I have a deep reminder of the force generated by a router. The wood hit just below my knuckle and gave me a very deep cut about 3/4” long. After I examined why this happened and saw clearly why. It was an inside corner with too much material and the grain direction was such that was like running your hand against your beard stubble. Of course it was going to kickback. Lesson learned!
You’re making me fall in love with slowmo again...
I'll split a phantom with you. We could each have it 6 months a year. Thanks brother!
Jonathan Katz-Moses I’d do it with you...
@Jonathan Katz-Moses @Giaco Whatever I'd watch that
im 6 and my dad is a wood werker
and i love slowmo
Thanks so much for taking the time to film and post this. For newbie woodworkers like myself it's extremely informative and fascinating to watch. Very appreciated!
The generous explanation here is that you are misinformed. The fact is, every kick back that you showed was caused by "climb cutting". Even though you were cutting in a conventional direction, you were not removing all of the material up to the template. This left material behind the cut which allowed a climb cut situation. If you are going to talk about safety then you have a responsibility to be correct. Every other explanation that you gave was secondary or irrelevant.
I love your channel. You (and maybe one or two channels like yours) have helped this office jockey to become proficient enough to fix or build almost anything you would ever need in a house.
The hardware store sends you it thanks and love, my wife not so much 😁
Thanks for confirming the mass of the bit makes all the difference. Solid spindle moulder heads are huge, and they plow through material as if it isn't even there. 👍👍👍
One of the smartest woodworkers on RUclips. I do enjoy the straight talk, but I can do without the squirrels.
That was surprising to see how much that straight bit wobbled. Cool stuff
I've learned a great deal from your router slow-mo videos and have purchased spiral bits from Bits & Bits and will be ordering more. I am sure my routing will be much better but more importantly SAFER! Thnks much!
This is a great video..and I've had kickback from my router table and it sucks. I've been replacing my Ryobi bits with Infinity bits and I'm way happier with the results.
Thank you. I am a newbie to this and your video showed me a lot of things that I never knew and safety is always a #1 concern.
BTW just want to say I received my Katz-Moses apron a few days ago, flat out love it. I have purchased 3 other aprons over the last couple of years and was never really happy with the fit and/or function. The Katz-Moses apron is the bees knees. Fit and comfort is great, quality of material great and function/ergonomics is right up there with the much more expensive aprons. If any of you are on the fence about buying one, do it. And for those of you who have not received yours yet, honestly it is worth the wait. Thank you!!!
Thank you my friend!
What a fantastic video. Watching this video gives me such a better understanding of the "why" as to how these issues happen. I love spiral cut bits and don't have a problem with the cost because of how well they perform. BitsBits will become my go to for router bits.
You'll love them!
Funny how you just posted this video...I was looking into a new router bit like that ultimate bit... But was just blown away by the price... This really puts things into better perspectives for me.
They're really worth it. Thank you
Thanks, I used a half inch up down spiral bit this weekend and I had significant kick back, it was absolutely terrifying.
Thanks for taking the time to make and more importantly share these video's. It is really useful getting to see what really happens when your work is going faster than your eye can see. I would also like to take this opportunity to say thank you for my new and very awesome apron which arrived last week.
Great to see WHY is may go wrong. Understanding why you’re doing it wrong is invaluable... many thanks
I have been having kickback with even a spiral bit on a few pieces I was working on last week. These pieces were mostly end grain. The hard part is the edges I needed to flush trim were curved and some pieces were too small for a second grr-rip block. I never found a good way to prevent the kickback. Thankfully I had a friend who had a spindle sander I could use. It seemed safer than the router. I'm not sure what I will do next time I were to cut these pieces with the router.
Holy cow. I just watched this yesterday and today experienced this exact kickback. Glad to have the knowledge and know what to do about it!
I can co-sign on the spiral/up/down 3/4" flush trim bit. Life changer. The straight cutter is just a heart attack on a stick!!!!
It looked to me like the template wasn’t riding the bearing in every kick back clip ... as if you were wanting kickback for demonstrations ... knowledge, repetition, concentration, focus, and grip are key elements in safety and preventing kickback... thanks for the video
Excellent information here - illustrates beyond a doubt how much more efficient the cuts are from a spiral bit. Makes me want to see a video of the manufacturing process of that bit that justifies paying more for a bit than a complete DeWalt router kit with 2 bases! Thanks Jonathan
Hey brother if someone is using a stand alone router table like yourself, they should really be using a shaper. You can get some relatively low powered 220v shapers like the one I have. It makes a huge difference. It's rigidity is on another level which lets you take the speed up on those big bits without getting vibration.
Also, you can have a pivoting pin as well. That is a must for me when dealing with possible kickback on flush routing end grain areas.
The only time I recommend a router over a shaper is when portability is required or you are limited on space and you need to like... Put your router table on your work bench as a combo or something. But there's no reason to have a stand alone router table instead of a shaper. Especially an expensive router setup
I got my apron a few days ago and have been loving it all week.
So nice to have all the pockets at my fingertips!
Thank you my friend!
Great demo, Jonathan~! Yes, kickback on any tool is frightening in the moment that it occurs, but a router (for me) adds an extra degree of "scari-fication" (lol) because you're usually closer to that spinning bit than with blades on other tools. I've already been using Whiteside bits for a while, but I definitely agree that the Astra-coated bits are great~!
Thanks~!!
Stiffness (AKA bending modulus) is proportional to diameter cubed, so a 1/2" router bit shank is 8 times stiffer than a 1/4". Big difference.
Sponsorship is all good as long as it's disclosed, as it was in this video.
Jonathan, great video on router kickback and bit types. Great slow-motion video. Thanks for the code as I ordered the "Mega Flush Trim" bit from Bits & Bits!
Everyone is a critic including me. The endurance examples make me ask why anyone wouldn't simply use a chop saw, bandsaw, table saw or circular saw for a end cut to begin with. That said., You imparted information any router operator should have in their awareness and may in fact save them from injury or anyone nearby. Personally I would not use a router for straight across end cuts but I'm recommending this vid to anyone with a router doing wood working. After all said, you taught me a thing about grain as a issue in routing. This vid helps prevent year out, promotes safety which is cheaper that what can result and yes, trying to remove to much is just going to cause trouble for the user n one way, shape or form.
Have you checked your router for runout? At first I thought the straight bit was bent (note the uneven pattern of pitch on the blades) but by the end of the video, I'm not so sure. The ultimate trim bit also seemed to be wobbling in the slow motion shots ... leading me to think you may have a bigger problem. It could be dirt in your collet, or it could be mechanical wear/damage. To test, get a length of 1/2" reamer blank = part 3023A245 from McMaster-Carr. Chuck up the blank and put a dial gauge on it as you turn the router by hand. You'll be able to test different variables: replacement collet, new bearings, etc. until you get your router back in shape.
Thank you so much for this video! Great explanation on all the things I was doing wrong last night. Fortunately after my first tear out incident I gave up on trying to flush cut 4/4 material with a 1/4 spiral bit. Waaaay too much material and it was a piece of IPE which is super hard too. I've since come up with a different mechanism to make the cuts I need much more safely!
I noticed in some of the video that the piece being routed was never in contact with the bearing on the router bit. To me, that is a recipe for disaster. Rough cuts from the band saw, jigsaw, or whatever should (and can) be close enough that you can safely remove the rest of the material in one pass with a router. If you don't keep the guide bearing in contact with the pattern, you are basically trying to freehand the cut, which can result in taking off too much material at one time. Work on your rough-cutting skills so you have minimal material to remove with the router.
Helpful, thanks mate! Well noticed
Just learning how to use templates to make furniture parts.
I attempted to shape the brace that supports the chair arm to the leg of the chair. So far I’ve sent 3 of them across the room.
I’ve learned, from your video, that I am not trimming the piece close enough to the template causing the kickback.
Thank you for the guidance.
Dude, these router slow mo shots are so cool! i would love to see you frame it even tighter to the cut and shoot at like 50Kfps+ to see those shavings peel off, so cool!
Another point that needs to be addressed is your choice of spiral bits. NEVER use a down-cut spiral flush trim bit in a router table. The down cut helix when inverted will push the workpiece upward. The use of up cut spiral flush trim bits will create a downward force on the workpiece. I have used compression spiral bits on a router table and noticed that they are not very stable for use in a router table and don’t recommend using them unless a router shield is employed.
As much as I know some of this the slow motion does so much to explain it better. Excellent job, greatly appreciated.
Exactly what I needed to learn today. 🤦🏼♂️ Fir and a straight flush trim equal tear out.
Thanks for caring about us man, you’re the best!
Ordered the stop-block a week or 2 ago and can't wait to try it out. It looks great on your videos. I even incorporated the t-track for it on my new crosscut sled.
Awesome!
Samuel L. Jackson - "Say MASSIVE one more time Mother%&*ker."
I just got a new router. Good timing for this video.
DO Not Ignore the Max rpm marked on these big bits! THE Ultimate flush bit works better at 13-15K than at 18K max. 18K + and it will kick unless very little material. Learned w 8 lb mahogany bass guitar blank flying! No injury, lucky.
Thanks-you have once again taught me a good lesson and justified me spending more on tools-keep it up !!
Fantastic info dude. I think this one will continue to get traffic throughout all time as people search it after getting router kickback (def not why I’m here watching it….)
Thank You for all that you do for woodwork. I have watch and learned so much from you. Thank you 🙏
My apron just started shipping so exited
Awesome!
I ordered one the other day, but I'm in the UK 🇬🇧 so a may have to wait a little longer for it.. Can't wait though!
You guys will love it. It's well worth it. (Honestly, it could easily go for more money simply because of the quality of it. Don't tell Johnathan. 😉 )
What order number were you? I’m still waiting, patiently. Super excited to get mine!
Got mine last week. Great design! Should last for years.
on all your examples of kickback you have material on the out feed of the bit!
a router cutter cant grab material if it is not there, so if the cutter had stayed against the template and removed said material, then it cant use that material to walk backwards.
So when using templates, it is important to match feed rate with material removal, so as to make sure that all of the material has been removed. if this is achieved, then the bit cannot kickback.
in saying all that , the up/down spiral cutter is does a beautiful job and leaves a great finish.
metal machinists have used this cutter design for years, for good reason . imagine routing without a template , and all the kickback you would encounter.
good vid
I've been enjoying your channel and I have struggled with router kickback. I have been somewhat puzzled as to what was happening in the moment and not always sure of the cause. For me, the most relatable thing was not having adequately supported work, and the grain change, but I really couldn't say. I hadn't considered the tool wobble which is also interesting component, but there are two things in this video I don't fully buy into:
1) The comparison between your sever kickback example and the follow-up with the Maple and different bit. I fully agree that bit style and diameter will reduce the occurrence, but the specific wood parts being cut have a grain that seems to be more or less conducive to kickback comparably. The darker wood around 4:00 appears to have a grain thats more perpendicular in the view and is mores intersecting with the straight bit fighting the cut. The maple grain is on a taper easing into the cut. I'm no expert but I think thats part of the difference. I do agree the second bit style should make a greater reduction to kickback, but it would have been better to see that with the same part bit to bit.
2) I have experienced a wobble like you've demonstrated around 3:27. It is pretty severe, and it seems more like it bent bit more than its wobbling around. which I have have had happen.
Overall this is good and I appreciate it, but I don't think it's closing the gaps for me on this subject.
I hate the router for the safety concerned you mentioned and always find other ways to do what I need. Maybe I will check out that spiral bit.
Thank you Jonathan for this interesting video, the spyro bit looks phenomenal, and the slow motion helps a lot understanding what’s going on at the router!!!
ordered one of these because of this video. Thanks for the info and the savings
Thats a cool video and it explains a lot for me. There is more to consider with bit diameter, say 1/2 inch vs 3/4 assuming you kept the rpms constant at an arbitrary 20000rpm then you will have a tip speed (angular velocity) of 12.5m/s for the 1/2 but just under 19m/s on the 3/4 this means less time for each cut and less time between cuts. The addition mass of the bit will help sustain the speed if it hits a hard bit and then as you said the extra rigidity really helps. Can't wait for the next one, nothing like seeing the science behind what we do
For some reason during this video, I pictured two squirrels wearing wools socks, one driving a truck and one swinging a bat.....gentlemen....
Also difference in the thicker router bits to the thinner bit was the height of the positioning of the router. In the thinner bit the height was considerably larger helping to cause movement and flexibility and wasnt using the bearing for guidance on the jig.
Wow thank you for making these vidoes Jonathan! I’m just starting out and I really appreciate these safety lessons.
Holy that looks so cool in slo mo, take notes Dan and Gav
An interesting take on it. I’d have liked to see a bit more on the use of fences to at least partly address the problem.
Spiral bits look to be a big help, even if they’re very expensive.
I was looking at both upward and downward cutting bits but have no idea when you would use one over the other.
Your videos are a pleasure to watch. Excellent sound and video quality. Well done
Received my apron last week. Super nice fitting and very comfortable even fully loaded. Havent had the chance to put it work yet though. Soon, soon.......
That's awesome bud!
Really impressive footage. I've experienced kickback - crazy to actually see what's going on. Great information and reminder, Thanks Jonathan
This is so incredibly helpful. I greatly appreciate the explanations based on research, whether it's yours or the papers you've shared on other topics. Testing and sharing, don't stop! Also, couldn't be happier with my new apron. You rock.
Thanks bud! Means a lot.
Use the guide bearing and stop force advertising the spiral bits 😅 Helpful video though good work dude!
Thanks for this, wish I saw it yesterday. Sure appreciate you sharing this critical info!
What an awesome video! I learned so much about spiral bits. Really enjoyed the slow down videos
Very helpful. Love the slow-mo analysis. Just for those viewers of yours that may have never used a router, you might show a clip or two at normal speed to give them an idea of the incredible RPMs routers produce.
Check out my router playlist.
Jonathan, love to see your videos, I am getting my DIY workshop space this coming week, I know most of your stuff is prosumer, which I am not, but I the info is great. Looking to get one of your aprons for Christmas... Cheers from Costa Rica!!!
I was working at a cabinet shop years ago, and my buddy was using a handheld router on a hardwood face frame. He hit a knot, and the router jumped. Unfortunately he was holding the router in a way that let is fingers dip into the router bit. He lost some fingernail and skin off his fingertips, but it wasn't nearly as bad as it could have been.
Did you mention that it happens when you go it the wrong direction. Router moves left to right.
Feed a router in the wrong direction regardless the amount of material and you will likely end up with a lifetime reminder.. luckily I still have all my fingers.. seemed to me in a lot of the slow mo they were feeding the router in the wrong direction
I take out 3/8th to 1/2 cuts on end grain on 4/4 boards with 3/4 flush trim bits all the time. I also sharpen straight flute bits all the time. Spirals are nice but i can resharpen bits over and over. They usually only need a small kiss with a 1k grit diamond/CBN grinder to make beautiful pencil shavings.
Thanks I needed this info I was getting frustrated over this kickback problem..
Very impressive results and learning video. And my apron arrived and it is AWESOME it might be the only one in Northern Ireland if so i'm so proud to own it Thanks J K
Got my apron too and it looks like amazing quality. Downside is I must be extra extra extra small because even at the tightest strap settings it still fits me loosely. :/
All I had to adjust was the middle back strap. I tightened it up completely then put it on and loosen until it fits perfectly. Hope that helps
Thanks, this gives me a great amount of info for when I make my frames, so now I think I might actually use my 1/2 inch coupled router!
LoL, you keep calling them "Bits Bits"
I started calling them Bits Bits and they corrected me. I wonder how many calls they've received saying, "Hey Bits Bits, I heard about you from Jonathan's RUclips channel"
LOL!
Awesome video Sir, and I love the ultra slow montion. Thanks for sharing and keep up the awesome content!
Awesome stuff - my digits and my wife thank you for sharing this.
I'm really loving these videos.
That's really cool with the spiral bits, I've only used straight bits because they're cheap but I'll definitely have to save up for that ultimate bit!
1 spiral will last way way longer than a straight bit
Great work! Thanks for taking the time to make, film, edit and share.
Awesome video. Luckily, I've never experienced this but I haven't routed that much in the past.
You will. Happens to everyone. Scary stuff
I haven't earned my router kick back badge yet. A few months back I had my table saw kick back nightmare realized. "nicked" my finger tip. Angel on my shoulder left me with a flesh only 1/4 inch chunk missing. Healed to the point you'd never know.
Long story to say....videos like this are so important for everyone to refocus on safety from procedure and equipment points of view.
I wish somebody smarter than me would invent some realistic simulators that give you an accurate "feel" based on what you do. That way you could experience the points of failure to know how far/fast/hard/etc you can go and still be safe. Cause everyone gets in a hurry at times trying to finish up or meet a deadline or whatever.
I have in a drastic way. I was using a straight bit and making a trench cut. The router was only sticking out of the fence by 3 or so mm. But i need the trench to start near the end so I plunge cut it. But I was right of the pencil line so I gripped the wood piece tightly and moved the wood piece to the right. Going with the rotation. Bad move. The router bit instantly grabbed the wood and shot it to the right and because I had my finger pressing on the and . The end of my finger shot across the router bit. It felt like it got hit by a hammer. I knew what happened as I slowly raised my finger and, Oh shit. The end of the finger was in ribbons. Then the blood just oozed out. I wrapped it tightly as I could. Went to the Doctor but they couldn't sow anything so they wrapped it up nicely. I now have only a tiny bit missing and the feeling was weird for a long time. It really makes me respect my tools more.
Great info. My router table grabbed my work piece and thru it across the room. Needed Two stiches in my thumb and one in my ring finger.is removing too much.
HA! Hotter than 2 squirrels humping a in a wool sock. Gonna have to add that to my quiver of funny expressions. Subscribed because of that.
Hey Johno, thanks for all your vid’s mate, been doing some work in the backyard and you are huge help!!! Already picked up a router but from the website, I just had a question with your compression bits on the website, can you remove the bearing and use it to plunge cut??
Cheers for your help.
Thanks....great tips! Looks like one of the templates you made for Jay's Custom Creations!!!
This video was very well made. Thank you!