“you cannot be the party of the amazon warehouse workers and jeff bezos, they have opposing interests” is so well put and exactly the problem the democratic party is having
But apparently you can. Why doesn’t this apply to the Republican Party? To think about Emil’s question, what do Democrats do the make material impact? The PRO Act, the CROWN Act, introducing more protections to Free and Reduced Lunch, introducing more pro-choice protections, introducing bills to protect and expand Social Security, etc. Despite introducing more labor protections, Dems lost more union votes. So it’s hard for me to see this as Democrats losing. It’s Republicans winning through bigotry, financial illiteracy, the Dunning-Kruger effect, and purity politics. Not to say Dems are blameless, Ben and Emil made excellent points that I hadn’t considered, but I am mad and unfortunately going through my own blame game. “We” might have survived, but people have died or been separated from their families at the border, and are struggling to survive as direct consequences of Trump’s first term. If all these women dying since Roe v Wade being overturned wasn’t enough to vote against Trump (with Harris being our own real option), then yeah, I’m going to continue with the blame game. Dems need to do better and actually learn, but that won’t mean anything if the US population doesn’t learn as well. And there are going to be opportunities to learn things the hard way.
But why doesn’t this apply to Republicans? Democrats are substantially more worker-friendly (PRO Act, CROWN Act,) but are bleeding labor votes for a candidate who hates and openly exploits labor.
Can't stress it enough how important these conversations are and to be able to debate with friends in a healthy way. Hoping more people outside us Bemil heads would see this. This was so great to watch A
Love this show soo so much, it's my favorite been a fan since day one of Trillionaire. I just have to say one thing, my wife is beyond heart broken that Kamala lost, that's not because she was her or my favorite candidate but because she knew that it would protect her body and those around her. And she and I voted for her because she was scared of her friends who are Trans, gay, and people of color. I am a straight white male, and I just would hope Ben and Emil as well would acknowledge being straight white men, it's easy to talk about the fault in the Democratic party when you're not worried about your rights being taken away. Also I have to say of course I agree, the Democratic party MUST change, this is coming from.someone who voted for Bernie in the MI primary in 2015-2016 when he actually beat Hilary, I was ready for a change then and I am ready for a change now. There's so many ways Kamala but mainly Biden and the Dems messed up, but it's just really scary because I have family members who are on retired/disabled on Medicaid, and Trump wants to do away with that, real people are going to be impacted and it just sucks that it could have been avoided. Sorry just had to say my two cents, love you guys so much, I am a fan for life. ❤
i’m envious of how emil can be very left leaning but somehow never encounters all the insufferable “exclusivity liberals” online that ben is talking about? ben, i see you it’s very real and so god damn annoying how much the left eats itself over nonsense
I got told by a super liberal coworker that I was a trump supporter because I said I don’t discuss who I vote for. This was over a discussion voting for an employee of the year type award… these types of people do exist
emil i understand you! i was raised the same way. since we did the work to change the values/ opinions we grew up with, we can end up resentful of those who have chosen not to
What ben was saying was in context of conservative podcast bros having a way easier time building an audience and thus have a wider breadth on the political scale leaving them to the right. Whereas the left tends to cannibalize itself by Constant in-fighting.
podcast bros are also very happy to endorse each other and collaborate. It's rare that you see any serious beef around podcast bros. I can only think of 2 dramas in the past
Inherently, conservative politics are geared towards a select few of demographics in this country; I’d argue it’s easy for them to all be on the same page. Democrats want it to be a big tent where everyone’s voice is heard equally. That’s an incredibly hard thing to do, especially when we cannot even agree on what our politics stand for
@@SonOfThor69yes and especially when the party that positions itself as representing of all those voices only really represents corporate interests. I get what Ben is saying but with the Democratic Party as it stands…those disagreements are inconsequential.
@@SonOfThor69 I would almost argue the opposite. Right-wingers are way more welcoming to accept anyone into their club and ppl on the left like to make sure you pass every moral box on their checklist before allowing you to call yourself a progressive. I think ben is right that the moral grandstanding is really detrimental to the availability of left-wing online talking-heads. I mean the biggest left-wing political social media person is probably hasan piker, who is far too extreme for a lot of people’s liking and if you disagree with even a single point he makes, you’re ousted and the left community comes at you hard.
@@emmysinco8662I get what you’re saying about right wingers being more “accepting” although, I feel like it’s that right wingers have a more unified approach. Right wingers may think someone is subhuman for simply being a different race or gender, but they still want non-white males on their side because it adds to their numbers and they know that’s all that matters to accomplish their goals. It’s easier to get more people on your side when you’re less nuanced and have well defined goals. Left wingers are more likely to call out bad behavior than let it slide/defend it and unfortunately, people don’t like it when you call them out. I think a big reason why Biden won in 2020 is because people were much more united in getting Trump ousted that they were more willing to let Biden’s shortcomings slide.
I think his whole point is really hitting the nail on the head and the longer that liberals ignore it or dismiss it, the longer it will hurt them. An obsession with pointing fingers and name-calling and less of a focus on education and positive exposure is what contributes to this.
This discourse fully encapsulated my feelings after this election. It's refreshing to see these ideas be worked through. On Ben's point: I think the chat was correct to say that maybe the boys are just seeing separate things online and that is why there was a bit of a disconnect. Part of me wants to say that these are indeed siloed disputes and shit posting online and it doesn't make a difference in the real world (in terms of whether it should inform political strategy moving forward, journalistic angles, etc), however, with the way that Trump utilized new media, namely Podcasters and RUclips personalities with active Reddits and comment sections in the campaign, more and more of the sentiment that online spaces conjure do inform the real world - as seen by the number of Gen X and Millennial Trump voters. The scolding tone that Liberals and Leftist use with each other in these spaces do seem to have an impact in the alienation of voters, which evidently contribute, at least in part, to a lost election and in my opinion should be addressed as a matter of political strategy for the Dems. How this can happen at this point? I truly don't know. I know this point isn't fully fleshed out...Thoughts?
I don’t exactly agree about the scolding bit. I mean yes, there is an element of perfectionism that needs to be moderated (mediated?) and sometimes the scolding is poorly communicated. However, in group CRITICISM is important I think. It is part of how most left leaning groups arrive at good solutions. I think something that could be addressed that isn’t currently, is the reactionary response to criticism (in whatever form). It’s obviously not that simple but it doesn’t seem like part of the discourse. IMO (and I certainly could be wrong), it seems like men often are reactionary and move to the right precisely because they are not adequately taught to deal with emotions.
@@franjkav I think this hits the issue directly on the head. Yes, there are some people on the left who are crazy and simply attack anyone who doesn't agree with them. Obviously. But the problem truly is that on one side (the left) men are being told that if they want to be a part of it they have to grow as people and maybe that means not doing certain things like being racist or sexist. And on the other side (the right) men are being told that there is nothing wrong with them and that you can be racist, bigoted, etc. One of these things is WAY easier to go along with.
especially your point about how democrats still have not recognized that neoliberalism is dead 😻 unsure when the democratic party will stop running on the platform of “we’re not that guy!” and nothing else
@@ayacohen9059 as an outsider, it seems like the only reason to vote for Dems is that "we're not trump". The bar was so low and yet they still managed to lose 🤣
emil thank you, i’ve followed your twitter and have agreed with you about the way this would end from the start from the start I really did need to hear y’all rn 😭 the craziness, being worst, knowing he’d win, the dumbass Democratic loser party, the feeling doom- all of it
I spoke to a lot of trumpers. Working class men rarely mention democrats condescension or ineffectiveness. Lets get real for a moment here. They rarely have any idea what either party is doing at all. What they say is - he is strong. They’re struggling - and he is a big ol’ rich aggressive man - he will run this country right. They TRUST him. Her? Oh, she’s annoying when she raises her voice. You cannot dissect this without seeing the misogyny at the core.
"working class men do not mention condescension" The biggest voting issue was the economy. People feel broke. They trust Trump to fix the economy. And your takeaway is "im going to condescend them: they are all sexist" Ben is right. Yall cannot get off the phucking high horse.
Yeah this is my experience too. I'm around alot of working class guys from various political positions and there is still a lot of misogyny all around us
Much appreciated guys. I think its a hard lesson on the echo chambers we allow ourselves to fall into and think the majority of the country must feel the same. That got proven wrong, guess we all have to widen our lens.
Let me try and make a charitable breakdown of what i think ben was getting at and why emil wasnt rockin with it (pls correct me if I'm wrong)....if online "fringe leftists" were less reactionary and abrasive in their interactions with moderates/centrists it would encourage those people to interact with and gain sympathy for more progressive policies/worldviews. This would grow the voter base in favour of said progressive policies and would place a greater incentive on the democrats to adopt them. This is where i think the disconect is because as emil mentioned the democrats are so deeply intertwined with corporate interests that any remotely progressive policy on housing, education, healthcare etc. stands in direct opposition to their interests. The democrats have more to gain in 💲💲💲 than in public opinion.
I agree in a general sense but at the same time, tiptoeing around reactionaries is also very difficult. In individual relationships, having to do this is abusive.
@@woogaoogaboogafooganot at all! this is also not necessarily my opinion just what I THINK Ben was maybe getting at. The internet is inherently reactionary and is not a format that lends itself to nuance or reason. I think infighting and vitriol thrown around online is not helpful for building a unified left but I don't think it's the main reason centrist/ppl in general are being siphoned to the right. I think ppl are struggling, disillusioned, can't meet their basic needs despite working hard for decades and the far right gives them easy answers. Like Emil said leftist spaces are accepting (generally and irl) but they require you to be willing to accept you may be wrong and question your own beliefs...people at the end of their rope are not often willing to do that. There's many things at play and there is no simple answer but I appreciate conversations that allow for disagreement and imperfect opinions
Somehow you guys managed to sum up the entire problem on accident 52:20-52:35 - I know it was a shot at Elon, but if I was to say I'm inspired by SpaceX's mission, there is a non-insignificant amount of people who would say I was racist or love guns or any number of other issues that aren't even remotely related...
While I absolutely get some of Emil's points and I think that he does a really good service in digging for more nuance, I gotta agree with Ben on a lot here. But even with the tension in this episode (which makes sense given the timing tbh), you guys are a really good pair and it's nice to not always be watching two people just "yes and" each other lol.
Ben--I think you're half right about alienating the base. I don't think the democratic party went "too far left" at all, I think the 44% "too progressive" number is misleading considering how polarized the nation is, you should expect 100% of conservatives (roughly 50% of a polled group) to say so. Democrats have both alienated the left by shifting center, and failed to make up that ground in the right-center. The best example of this is border policy and the hemorrhaged Latino vote. When you used to be the party of "we're not going to build the wall," but now you're the party of "we're going to build a gay rainbow wall," but you're against the party of "we're going to build 2 walls and also kill everyone who climbs it" you're now in a losing position on that issue. Any voters who were only clinging to you because of your border policy are now lost to the other party due to their successful messaging on culture war issues, and feigning like they are the party for the working class. At the same time, you're not going to gain the center-right votes, since you've previously said "anyone who wants to build a wall is a looney tune." So Ben, you're correct about not being able to gain votes from that base. I suspect your sentiment comes from your feeling of isolation on the topic of Israel, and I hope that you and Emil have been able to talk about your differences so that you can better understand the leftist position on the issue. Regarding this, there's plenty of polls showing that Kamala calling for an immediate weapons embargo would've increased support of ~30% of voters, while it would've decreased support of only ~5% of voters: use-these-numbers.ghost.io/here-are-34-polls-that-show-a-ceasefire-weapons-embargo-help-kamala-win/
Really enjoyed listening to you guys go back and forth on these topics. I know Ben’s example of trans issues was a throwaway comment, but it’s important to note that showing support for minorities is about solidarity. For them, there’s a real risk to their lives and rights. To fight for them is to fight for someone’s life. That’s what it’s about. By saying that it’s not what people care about is the POINT. People do care about their wallets and inflation, but trans people are literally fighting for their own right to exist. We need to fight for their right to exist within conversation, to show that trans people do exist and deserve our attention. The way in which these topics are talked about is important though. But when some troll conservative guy makes a sly comment about Apache helicopters or some old joke, it is hard to approach that conversation with a sense of education, as opposed to just exhaustion. Loved the episode and hope y’all are keeping safe xxx
@@benandemilshowit’s no problem. I know your point was that discourse as a whole is exhausting, and is somewhat exclusive to those that know and don’t know. If you don’t know, you’re wayyy more likely to be scolded as opposed to being taught or educated etc Shit is fucked atm!
As a 29 year old straight white man, I can kinda understand this, but I also don't. I've never been made to feel like I have some innate sin for being a straight white man. I've said or done things that are toxic or whatever, and I got called out on it. I learned from it and grew as a person.
@jordanmatthews1450 I think people who tend to internalize general discussions and discourse can be made to feel this way. Same thing with discussions of victimhood and disempowerment, as a black woman (Non-USAian) when I was young being constantly told by leftists or the right that I'm not thinking correctly, or I'm being held back by a shadowy mystery hand can completely change your preception to self-actualize. Of course, I don't think that way because it's unhelpful and not grounded
I agree with him on this and after seeing the autopsy of the election it's something that needs to be addressed. I have my issues with some stuff with him, but Hasan Piker absolutely fills that space and we need more dudes like him because the right is walking the left in that space. The boys here do a great job of filling the space as well and hope that keeps doing it for a long time
Emil asking for examples of the purity tests online. There are comments on certain Ben and Emil eps that do demonstrate this directed at Ben or Emil. Those comments aren’t necessarily wrong at their core, but some of them do lean towards being reductive and just mean rather than constructive (though there are a lot of constructive ones as well). A really goofy example because I’m not trying to open a serious can of worms is Emil talking about Barbie. There were several comments about “getting the ick” or thoughts of stopping support because to some people, not understanding Barbie meant you’re a secret misogynist.
that was a lot of fun. did not expect a random b&e stream. come to think about it you two would make awesome streamers. id try out a few more if i were you *which i am not, fyi.
Thanks for chatting it out and disagreeing, I appreciated Emil giving pushback and testing when Ben suggests not calling out people for fascist retoric. Great show as always guys.
What Ben was saying does hold merit. There’s a lot of justifiable anger from leftists, but the anger in addressing it pushed groups further right. I’m not saying I don’t see where leftists are coming from, but what’s the point of scolding people if the result gets a literal fascist elected. I totally agree with Emil that the democrats should reprioritize and become a party of the working class, but we actually have no control over that. At least Ben’s point is something we can address in our own behavior.
This episode showed that the real issue here is that two guys who in a two party system both lean towards the Democratic Party can’t agree on what the Democratic Party should look like. MAGA/republicans for the most part are unified in their beliefs, while democrats continue to become more divided.
Thanks guys for doing this ❤❤ and I appreciate Ben for providing a more balanced view. This isn’t down to a single factor, and I think it’s absurd to not acknowledge Harris being a woman as a driving factor
I had this on in the background and didn’t see Ben put his shirt over his head and then got a little freaked out when I glanced over and saw him. But seriously, this was a great listen. Feels good to have a lot of my exact opinions validated (mostly by Emil, not crazy about Ben's horseshoe theory take) while all of the other Dems in my life continue to find other people to scapegoat but themselves
Ben is a National treasure. Fuck I missed you guys. I just found my TMG hoodie the other day and my first thought was. “What a mistake I didn’t buy a Ben an Emil hoodie instead”😊
I totally understand what Ben was saying- online spaces especially have gotten more and more intolerant, to the point where if you have an opinion that is not perfectly in line with anti-trumpness, (for example, saying you don’t want to vote democrat), you get called a n*zi or someone who hates women’s rights. Emil is also right- it’s mind boggling that those takes get conflated that way
YES! goes back to what we were saying toward the end -- we need to embrace the fact that there's room for MORE THAN ONE TRUTH to exist at the same time and it's a big part of the problem
1:09:35 Ben, I was with you abt the culture war shit regarding trans people in society (schools, sports, etc) until you tried to argue that the mainstream doesn’t care. As a trans person who has lived in Colorado, Ohio, and now rural upstate NY, the people who have the biggest (negative) opinions about trans issues are those who live in places with few to no out&proud trans or queer people. To say this is pertinent only to the big cities in this country simply isn’t reading the room. For them, trans issues are relevant *because* it’s a safety issue in their minds. Their fear is rooted in fear for their children’s safety, and caring about your kids on its own is normal and ubiquitous. I Just didn’t appreciate the neutering/downplaying of this, but I think it came from a lack of misinformation rather than willful ignorance ofc. Love the rest of the episode. I’m so glad yall did this.
Long time listening first time caller, I find it hard to have these conversations with friends and others for the exact reason Ben talks about. Love this stuff for real, I think both parties get caught up with the morale high ground too and I feel like Emil really kinda played into that ya know. Personally I have never heard a democrat called a nazi or anything bad but hey
Yeah because snowflake is an endearing term. Both sides do it, I don't see how anyone could not see that. The bipartisan situation we are in completely aims to divide and villainize. More needs to be talked about regarding 3rd party space also. Thats another area that Dems lost a lot of votes to by being so centrist in their campaign
Fully get the vibe Ben is trying to convey here even though it’s not fully articulated. Not sure why Emil isn’t approaching it with more openness and that seems to have bogged things down, but enjoy the discourse all the same, love you guys
emil is right lol. conservative men are soft and i don’t care if they get offended for getting called out. we do not need to coddle supporters of a racist/sexist candidate. supporting such a candidate puts them in the same boat. they either need to live with the (true) labels or grow up.
seriously, especially when Ben is making his point at 57:34 . like holy shitt maybe emil's TL is just completely different from mine, but lefty twitter can be so unrelenting on their opinions, and allow for no nuance or leniency.
@@jackbuchholz9609 Ben was just saying that people would still get shit on just for being remotely in the center. It's like how the left just calls you a conservative for being moderate or center.
I understand and agree that Kamala being a woman is not the sole or even biggest reason she lost. I agree with you guys about the Dems shouldering most of the blame. But that doesn’t negate the fact that being a young woman in America who has never seen a woman President feels absolutely horrific. I was 17 when I watched Hillary lose, I’m 25 now and it’s just baffling to me that we try and try and still can’t get a woman in office. Misogyny is alive today and while it’s one of a number of factors, that you guys correctly pointed out, it’s undeniable.
My grandma was born in the year women got the right to vote and passed just a couple years before Hilary ran. It’s crazy to think she lived that long and still didn’t get to ever even vote for a woman.
Two women renewed their seats in congress because they stuck to their base and the needs of their constituents. You’re essentially agreeing with the nuance of it and then immediately disregarding the nuance with a blanket statement that reads so empty
I'm from Mexico, currently living in Texas for the psst year because of my husband's job. Watching your country during this election process is somehow so familiar to what we experience in Mexico, but it's odd, like watching it happen to a friend you love, but you can't tell them what they're doing wrong or help them lol.
50:52 I feel like this doesn’t get talked about enough, so many young voters would have likely turned blue but instead are sent into alpha/sigma pipelines and when it comes to voting time, it’s obvious who they’ll end up voting for
My bad! I was a bit lost on the point. I wasn't playing lol. I still am a little. That's why I asked for examples. I think there's a lot of confusion around what is "Left" and what is "Liberal" and what is "Democrats" so I'm trying to be specific about what we're talking about when we're talking about different groups.
@@emilderosa100% the difference of terms was a part of it. Ben was describing the issue in a lot of leftist circles of holier-than-thou attitudes and gatekeeping that makes it a more divisive, toxic environment that pushes a lot of people away. But because he says democrats you took it to be about the Democratic Party’s messaging.
I love you guys thanks so much for being here when conversation really matters- it's definitely a hard time and a scary look into the future but we stay moving forward love u all
Just getting some thoughts out about the left scolding conservatives: I do agree with Emil that someone needs to do it, but I think in order for the Democratic Party to survive as a political machine, they need to separate themselves from that rhetoric. Friends scold friends for decisions all the time, and can remain friends. When it starts coming from elected officials, that’s when people change their minds. Democratic politicians can obviously still think that as is their right under the first amendment, but on paper and on camera, they need to steer the focus towards improving the economy and creating incentives for stimulating renewable energy instead of just punishing big oil. If they can show how they’re improving the lives of others fiscally, they can continue to push their social agenda (for lack of a better term) QUIETLY. Victory will lie in them being able to point to how they’re improving people’s bank accounts - it’s unfortunate that it doesn’t lie in safeguarding rights for minorities or certain groups, but I think that that’s the case.
Yday was my 24th birthday and I worked all day at a pharmacy where the old people picking up their meds were in ecstasy, literally walking on air. The most direct form of gloating possible
hey thanks for proving exactly my point. you're reducing me to one thing and invalidating my opinions and experiences therefore as being inferior, less informed, less valid. great job, you're totally right
@@benandemilshow let me cut to the chase because you’re putting words in my mouth that I did not say. You are being chronically online. I don’t mean this as holier than thou, or wokescolding, or whatever your problem is with online dems. This “liberals will call you a naxi for one little disagreement” take is rooted in online reply guys, the average person does not think that way. And you making all of dems problem is also emblematic of the toxic situation we find ourselves in. Twitter, instagram and Reddit are not real life. Some weirdo called you a nazi in a comment, that’s horrible, but it’s not reflective of the Democratic Party, or leftists (two different parties in my mind) as a whole. I want you to go talk to 50 real people, dems specifically, and tell them your moderate take. Please come back and tell me how many people IN REAL LIFE called you a naxi. I don’t envy you, having to be plugged in to do your trading job effectively. you have to know the second that things happen so you can react accordingly. You have a lot of information being blasted at you constantly. Emil campaigned for dems, he knocking on doors, and had to actually explain official Democratic Party talking points to people. I just think his lived experience and yours are motivating your reaction to dems in this episode, that’s all I’m saying. No one’s better than the other, I just think you’re conflating weirdos on the internet with real life. It just seems like some people want to challenge your assessments, and you are using that as fuel for your point “why go to the left, you’re just gonna yell at me anyways”. Please remember that we like you and Emil and the show. This lashing out at your own audience for a slight difference is strangely, your exact point; but YOU are doing it to US.
@@benandemilshow let me cut to the chase because you’re putting words in my mouth that I did not say. You are being chronically online. I don’t mean this as holier than thou, or wokescolding, or whatever your problem is with online dems. This “liberals will call you a n*z for one little disagreement” take is rooted in online reply guys, the average person does not think that way. And you making all of dems problem is also emblematic of the toxic situation we find ourselves in. Twitter, instagram and Reddit are not real life. Some weirdo called you a n*z in a comment, that’s horrible, but it’s not reflective of the Democratic Party, or leftists (two different parties in my mind) as a whole. I want you to go talk to 50 real people, dems specifically, and tell them your moderate take. Please come back and tell me how many people IN REAL LIFE called you a n*z. I don’t envy you, having to be plugged in to do your trading job effectively. you have to know the second that things happen so you can react accordingly. You have a lot of information being blasted at you constantly. Emil campaigned for dems, he knocking on doors, and had to actually explain official Democratic Party talking points to people. I just think his lived experience and yours are motivating your reaction to dems in this episode, that’s all I’m saying. No one’s better than the other, I just think you’re conflating weirdos on the internet with real life. It just seems like some people want to challenge your assessments, and you are using that as fuel for your point “why go to the left, you’re just gonna yell at me anyways”. Please remember that we like you and Emil and the show. This lashing out at your own audience for a slight difference is strangely, your exact point; but YOU are doing it to US.
@@benandemilshow I know you’re frustrated that people have said shitty things to you online, but painting all of dems with this brush of being wokescolds further exasperates the problem. I challenge you to go tell 50 real life dems your moderate take, and I want you to tell me how many of them call you bad names. The problem you’re experiencing is psychos online, not dems, not leftists. This is only happening on Twitter
I think at 57:34, I'd have to agree with Ben. I think both the boys were close to sharing the same feelings of bias within media. However, I think Emil couldn't follow the idea of how having certain centralist ideas and constantly being pushed into the realm of extremism, usually by the far left could have led to deciding to vote red, particularly for trump. Just like you both mentioned earlier, there is a large group of people who voted for Biden/Obama, but decided to vote for trump this election. Of course there are bigger factors playing a role but I can understand what Ben was trying to say.
I don’t really disagree with much said but if we’re tiptoeing around people’s feelings, there can be absolutely no more tolerance of men saying anything about women being too emotional.
I thin Emil's reaction to Ben is kind of indicative of the point Ben was trying to make. While Emil is tracking that the cause/effect of wokescolding leading to a shift right SHOULDN'T make sense to voters who care about issues, I think a lot of voters care more about political vibes, ultimately.
Ben’s position is fundamentally illogical. When a moderate wins, it’s a sign we need to be moderate because moderation works. When a moderate like Kamala loses, it’s a sign we weren’t moderate enough. It’s not responding to a stimulus and making a logical reaction based on the events before you. It’s confirming your priors. Love the show though.
If a moderate losing in large part because their base and independent voters found their platform totally uninspiring does not make you think centrism is a bad idea, I struggle to see what stimulus would convince you that a move towards a populist left is right.
i'm talking about messaging and intra-party dynamics that have become toxic, uninviting, and holier-than-thou. EDIT: because it's much more than just the candidate and platform; it's the party as a whole and everything that it drags behind it like a cultural comet's tail.
@@benandemilshow Thanks for the reply! That’s fair. I agree that in-fighting is one of the biggest issues with the party (and a pet peeve of mine), I just think that the messaging vibe of the campaign and its platform probably impacts swing voters more than the intra-party vibes on Twitter-which are horrible but mostly experienced by those already in left spaces. Again, thanks for actually hearing me out and responding.
The problem is we ran a campaign saying hey we arent Trump., which worked in 2020. That was not enough this time around. We needed to show why we arent Trump. Dems never did that.
Ben was spot on at 1:02:06 “I think this is the problem”😂 democrats have become anyone that isn’t voting for the other guy and we are finding out.. we really disagree on a lot of things. Just end up running with whoever is the loudest in the room and hope people vote for it.
ben giving a shoutout to the women gave me the same feeling that i got when david guetta gave a shoutout to george floyd's family.
SHOUT OUT TO THE LADIES OF AMERICA AND ALSO TO GEROGE FLOYD AND HIS FAMILEE
This and the reply back by Ben made my whole day
“you cannot be the party of the amazon warehouse workers and jeff bezos, they have opposing interests” is so well put and exactly the problem the democratic party is having
basics of marxism baby
Emil legit dropped a banger with that one cannot be understated
But apparently you can. Why doesn’t this apply to the Republican Party? To think about Emil’s question, what do Democrats do the make material impact? The PRO Act, the CROWN Act, introducing more protections to Free and Reduced Lunch, introducing more pro-choice protections, introducing bills to protect and expand Social Security, etc. Despite introducing more labor protections, Dems lost more union votes. So it’s hard for me to see this as Democrats losing. It’s Republicans winning through bigotry, financial illiteracy, the Dunning-Kruger effect, and purity politics.
Not to say Dems are blameless, Ben and Emil made excellent points that I hadn’t considered, but I am mad and unfortunately going through my own blame game. “We” might have survived, but people have died or been separated from their families at the border, and are struggling to survive as direct consequences of Trump’s first term. If all these women dying since Roe v Wade being overturned wasn’t enough to vote against Trump (with Harris being our own real option), then yeah, I’m going to continue with the blame game. Dems need to do better and actually learn, but that won’t mean anything if the US population doesn’t learn as well. And there are going to be opportunities to learn things the hard way.
But why doesn’t this apply to Republicans? Democrats are substantially more worker-friendly (PRO Act, CROWN Act,) but are bleeding labor votes for a candidate who hates and openly exploits labor.
Republicans seemingly just pulled it off
I needed this discourse and hearing yall talk. Thanks for this
thank you for tuning in!!!
This was great convo, you guys are really smart. You should start a podcast or something
Can't stress it enough how important these conversations are and to be able to debate with friends in a healthy way. Hoping more people outside us Bemil heads would see this. This was so great to watch
A
yesss i get to listen to the nerds that live in my phone during my shift🤩🤩
yall aren’t actually nerds love yall
Love this show soo so much, it's my favorite been a fan since day one of Trillionaire. I just have to say one thing, my wife is beyond heart broken that Kamala lost, that's not because she was her or my favorite candidate but because she knew that it would protect her body and those around her. And she and I voted for her because she was scared of her friends who are Trans, gay, and people of color. I am a straight white male, and I just would hope Ben and Emil as well would acknowledge being straight white men, it's easy to talk about the fault in the Democratic party when you're not worried about your rights being taken away. Also I have to say of course I agree, the Democratic party MUST change, this is coming from.someone who voted for Bernie in the MI primary in 2015-2016 when he actually beat Hilary, I was ready for a change then and I am ready for a change now. There's so many ways Kamala but mainly Biden and the Dems messed up, but it's just really scary because I have family members who are on retired/disabled on Medicaid, and Trump wants to do away with that, real people are going to be impacted and it just sucks that it could have been avoided. Sorry just had to say my two cents, love you guys so much, I am a fan for life. ❤
i’m envious of how emil can be very left leaning but somehow never encounters all the insufferable “exclusivity liberals” online that ben is talking about?
ben, i see you it’s very real and so god damn annoying how much the left eats itself over nonsense
I got told by a super liberal coworker that I was a trump supporter because I said I don’t discuss who I vote for. This was over a discussion voting for an employee of the year type award… these types of people do exist
It’s ok ben I understand what you were saying😭
Me too BENJAMIN!
emil i understand you! i was raised the same way. since we did the work to change the values/ opinions we grew up with, we can end up resentful of those who have chosen not to
What ben was saying was in context of conservative podcast bros having a way easier time building an audience and thus have a wider breadth on the political scale leaving them to the right. Whereas the left tends to cannibalize itself by Constant in-fighting.
podcast bros are also very happy to endorse each other and collaborate. It's rare that you see any serious beef around podcast bros. I can only think of 2 dramas in the past
Inherently, conservative politics are geared towards a select few of demographics in this country; I’d argue it’s easy for them to all be on the same page.
Democrats want it to be a big tent where everyone’s voice is heard equally. That’s an incredibly hard thing to do, especially when we cannot even agree on what our politics stand for
@@SonOfThor69yes and especially when the party that positions itself as representing of all those voices only really represents corporate interests. I get what Ben is saying but with the Democratic Party as it stands…those disagreements are inconsequential.
@@SonOfThor69 I would almost argue the opposite. Right-wingers are way more welcoming to accept anyone into their club and ppl on the left like to make sure you pass every moral box on their checklist before allowing you to call yourself a progressive. I think ben is right that the moral grandstanding is really detrimental to the availability of left-wing online talking-heads. I mean the biggest left-wing political social media person is probably hasan piker, who is far too extreme for a lot of people’s liking and if you disagree with even a single point he makes, you’re ousted and the left community comes at you hard.
@@emmysinco8662I get what you’re saying about right wingers being more “accepting” although, I feel like it’s that right wingers have a more unified approach. Right wingers may think someone is subhuman for simply being a different race or gender, but they still want non-white males on their side because it adds to their numbers and they know that’s all that matters to accomplish their goals. It’s easier to get more people on your side when you’re less nuanced and have well defined goals. Left wingers are more likely to call out bad behavior than let it slide/defend it and unfortunately, people don’t like it when you call them out. I think a big reason why Biden won in 2020 is because people were much more united in getting Trump ousted that they were more willing to let Biden’s shortcomings slide.
Walz in the VP debate showed me that the D party took all his ammo from him.
100% they took everything great about walz and said hey, lets go ahead and stop that.
thank you Ben. -sincerely, a woman 💗
I appreciate y'all keeping us honest. We need perspective during both times of elation and grief.
I think some shirtless pix would make me feel better tho ;(
What Ben said about that original sin feeling was absolutely accurate and true
I think his whole point is really hitting the nail on the head and the longer that liberals ignore it or dismiss it, the longer it will hurt them. An obsession with pointing fingers and name-calling and less of a focus on education and positive exposure is what contributes to this.
This discourse fully encapsulated my feelings after this election. It's refreshing to see these ideas be worked through.
On Ben's point: I think the chat was correct to say that maybe the boys are just seeing separate things online and that is why there was a bit of a disconnect. Part of me wants to say that these are indeed siloed disputes and shit posting online and it doesn't make a difference in the real world (in terms of whether it should inform political strategy moving forward, journalistic angles, etc), however, with the way that Trump utilized new media, namely Podcasters and RUclips personalities with active Reddits and comment sections in the campaign, more and more of the sentiment that online spaces conjure do inform the real world - as seen by the number of Gen X and Millennial Trump voters. The scolding tone that Liberals and Leftist use with each other in these spaces do seem to have an impact in the alienation of voters, which evidently contribute, at least in part, to a lost election and in my opinion should be addressed as a matter of political strategy for the Dems. How this can happen at this point? I truly don't know. I know this point isn't fully fleshed out...Thoughts?
I don’t exactly agree about the scolding bit. I mean yes, there is an element of perfectionism that needs to be moderated (mediated?) and sometimes the scolding is poorly communicated. However, in group CRITICISM is important I think. It is part of how most left leaning groups arrive at good solutions. I think something that could be addressed that isn’t currently, is the reactionary response to criticism (in whatever form). It’s obviously not that simple but it doesn’t seem like part of the discourse. IMO (and I certainly could be wrong), it seems like men often are reactionary and move to the right precisely because they are not adequately taught to deal with emotions.
@@franjkav I think this hits the issue directly on the head. Yes, there are some people on the left who are crazy and simply attack anyone who doesn't agree with them. Obviously. But the problem truly is that on one side (the left) men are being told that if they want to be a part of it they have to grow as people and maybe that means not doing certain things like being racist or sexist. And on the other side (the right) men are being told that there is nothing wrong with them and that you can be racist, bigoted, etc. One of these things is WAY easier to go along with.
I didn’t catch this live but loved watching the upload, the live vibe is very fun!! Hope you guys do more!!!
i love you both so much, it makes me feel like i’m not losing my mind by myself. thank you
especially your point about how democrats still have not recognized that neoliberalism is dead 😻 unsure when the democratic party will stop running on the platform of “we’re not that guy!” and nothing else
@@ayacohen9059 as an outsider, it seems like the only reason to vote for Dems is that "we're not trump".
The bar was so low and yet they still managed to lose 🤣
@@Muhluriexactly it’s so upsetting 😭
emil thank you, i’ve followed your twitter and have agreed with you about the way this would end from the start from the start I really did need to hear y’all rn 😭 the craziness, being worst, knowing he’d win, the dumbass Democratic loser party, the feeling doom- all of it
hey thank you fleabag freak
I’m available tomorrow at 2:30p if you guys wanna go live after Ben’s appt. Lmk
I spoke to a lot of trumpers. Working class men rarely mention democrats condescension or ineffectiveness. Lets get real for a moment here. They rarely have any idea what either party is doing at all.
What they say is - he is strong. They’re struggling - and he is a big ol’ rich aggressive man - he will run this country right. They TRUST him. Her? Oh, she’s annoying when she raises her voice.
You cannot dissect this without seeing the misogyny at the core.
"working class men do not mention condescension"
The biggest voting issue was the economy. People feel broke. They trust Trump to fix the economy. And your takeaway is "im going to condescend them: they are all sexist"
Ben is right. Yall cannot get off the phucking high horse.
Yeah this is my experience too. I'm around alot of working class guys from various political positions and there is still a lot of misogyny all around us
Much appreciated guys. I think its a hard lesson on the echo chambers we allow ourselves to fall into and think the majority of the country must feel the same. That got proven wrong, guess we all have to widen our lens.
Having capitalist realism in the back is so amazing Emil. Shout out Mark Fisher, and shout out to you
Let me try and make a charitable breakdown of what i think ben was getting at and why emil wasnt rockin with it (pls correct me if I'm wrong)....if online "fringe leftists" were less reactionary and abrasive in their interactions with moderates/centrists it would encourage those people to interact with and gain sympathy for more progressive policies/worldviews. This would grow the voter base in favour of said progressive policies and would place a greater incentive on the democrats to adopt them. This is where i think the disconect is because as emil mentioned the democrats are so deeply intertwined with corporate interests that any remotely progressive policy on housing, education, healthcare etc. stands in direct opposition to their interests. The democrats have more to gain in 💲💲💲 than in public opinion.
I agree in a general sense but at the same time, tiptoeing around reactionaries is also very difficult. In individual relationships, having to do this is abusive.
Do you think centrists are not reactionary themselves? Then I have some tough news.
@@woogaoogaboogafoogagreat reading comprehension 😂
@@woogaoogaboogafooganot at all! this is also not necessarily my opinion just what I THINK Ben was maybe getting at. The internet is inherently reactionary and is not a format that lends itself to nuance or reason. I think infighting and vitriol thrown around online is not helpful for building a unified left but I don't think it's the main reason centrist/ppl in general are being siphoned to the right. I think ppl are struggling, disillusioned, can't meet their basic needs despite working hard for decades and the far right gives them easy answers. Like Emil said leftist spaces are accepting (generally and irl) but they require you to be willing to accept you may be wrong and question your own beliefs...people at the end of their rope are not often willing to do that. There's many things at play and there is no simple answer but I appreciate conversations that allow for disagreement and imperfect opinions
@@woogaoogaboogafooga tired of radical moderates. those people just want compromise for the sake of compromise. we need real change.
Killer ep guys, I love when you have proper discussions, it's a joy to listen to
Somehow you guys managed to sum up the entire problem on accident 52:20-52:35 - I know it was a shot at Elon, but if I was to say I'm inspired by SpaceX's mission, there is a non-insignificant amount of people who would say I was racist or love guns or any number of other issues that aren't even remotely related...
AOC would be a good example. I think idk 😊
While I absolutely get some of Emil's points and I think that he does a really good service in digging for more nuance, I gotta agree with Ben on a lot here. But even with the tension in this episode (which makes sense given the timing tbh), you guys are a really good pair and it's nice to not always be watching two people just "yes and" each other lol.
Fantastic convo and analysis gents, this is the stuff that keeps me coming back.
Ben--I think you're half right about alienating the base. I don't think the democratic party went "too far left" at all, I think the 44% "too progressive" number is misleading considering how polarized the nation is, you should expect 100% of conservatives (roughly 50% of a polled group) to say so.
Democrats have both alienated the left by shifting center, and failed to make up that ground in the right-center. The best example of this is border policy and the hemorrhaged Latino vote. When you used to be the party of "we're not going to build the wall," but now you're the party of "we're going to build a gay rainbow wall," but you're against the party of "we're going to build 2 walls and also kill everyone who climbs it" you're now in a losing position on that issue. Any voters who were only clinging to you because of your border policy are now lost to the other party due to their successful messaging on culture war issues, and feigning like they are the party for the working class.
At the same time, you're not going to gain the center-right votes, since you've previously said "anyone who wants to build a wall is a looney tune." So Ben, you're correct about not being able to gain votes from that base.
I suspect your sentiment comes from your feeling of isolation on the topic of Israel, and I hope that you and Emil have been able to talk about your differences so that you can better understand the leftist position on the issue. Regarding this, there's plenty of polls showing that Kamala calling for an immediate weapons embargo would've increased support of ~30% of voters, while it would've decreased support of only ~5% of voters: use-these-numbers.ghost.io/here-are-34-polls-that-show-a-ceasefire-weapons-embargo-help-kamala-win/
great comment!
Really enjoyed listening to you guys go back and forth on these topics. I know Ben’s example of trans issues was a throwaway comment, but it’s important to note that showing support for minorities is about solidarity. For them, there’s a real risk to their lives and rights. To fight for them is to fight for someone’s life. That’s what it’s about. By saying that it’s not what people care about is the POINT. People do care about their wallets and inflation, but trans people are literally fighting for their own right to exist. We need to fight for their right to exist within conversation, to show that trans people do exist and deserve our attention.
The way in which these topics are talked about is important though. But when some troll conservative guy makes a sly comment about Apache helicopters or some old joke, it is hard to approach that conversation with a sense of education, as opposed to just exhaustion.
Loved the episode and hope y’all are keeping safe xxx
totally hear you and the trans issue was definitely a bad example
@@benandemilshowit’s no problem. I know your point was that discourse as a whole is exhausting, and is somewhat exclusive to those that know and don’t know. If you don’t know, you’re wayyy more likely to be scolded as opposed to being taught or educated etc
Shit is fucked atm!
Ben is spot on at 50:04 - 53:00 . This is exactly the sentiment I see from my early 20s guy friends.
Yep that's what converted so many Democrats and won the election.
As a 29 year old straight white man, I can kinda understand this, but I also don't. I've never been made to feel like I have some innate sin for being a straight white man. I've said or done things that are toxic or whatever, and I got called out on it. I learned from it and grew as a person.
@jordanmatthews1450 I think people who tend to internalize general discussions and discourse can be made to feel this way. Same thing with discussions of victimhood and disempowerment, as a black woman (Non-USAian) when I was young being constantly told by leftists or the right that I'm not thinking correctly, or I'm being held back by a shadowy mystery hand can completely change your preception to self-actualize. Of course, I don't think that way because it's unhelpful and not grounded
@@nagisa9147 Yeah I think you may be on to something. And I'm truly not sure what the solution is.
I agree with him on this and after seeing the autopsy of the election it's something that needs to be addressed. I have my issues with some stuff with him, but Hasan Piker absolutely fills that space and we need more dudes like him because the right is walking the left in that space. The boys here do a great job of filling the space as well and hope that keeps doing it for a long time
Ben’s statement towards women is giving the “I’m sorry women :(“ meme from diary of a wimpy kid. Still ty though
i love you guys, you make me feel a bit better about all of this. thank you
Thanks for all the content this week y’all it’s a nice distraction 🥲
as far as online reach and a white guy that can have productive conversations- democrats have hasan and they kicked him out of the dnc lmao
Emil asking for examples of the purity tests online. There are comments on certain Ben and Emil eps that do demonstrate this directed at Ben or Emil. Those comments aren’t necessarily wrong at their core, but some of them do lean towards being reductive and just mean rather than constructive (though there are a lot of constructive ones as well). A really goofy example because I’m not trying to open a serious can of worms is Emil talking about Barbie. There were several comments about “getting the ick” or thoughts of stopping support because to some people, not understanding Barbie meant you’re a secret misogynist.
loved bens takes, I hope u see this my guy this was fire
that was a lot of fun. did not expect a random b&e stream. come to think about it you two would make awesome streamers. id try out a few more if i were you
*which i am not, fyi.
thank you i’m trying not to die inside and this helped a little bit. 💙
Thanks for chatting it out and disagreeing, I appreciated Emil giving pushback and testing when Ben suggests not calling out people for fascist retoric. Great show as always guys.
What Ben was saying does hold merit. There’s a lot of justifiable anger from leftists, but the anger in addressing it pushed groups further right. I’m not saying I don’t see where leftists are coming from, but what’s the point of scolding people if the result gets a literal fascist elected.
I totally agree with Emil that the democrats should reprioritize and become a party of the working class, but we actually have no control over that. At least Ben’s point is something we can address in our own behavior.
Thank you guys for talking about it, makes me feel less crazy 🫶🏼
This episode showed that the real issue here is that two guys who in a two party system both lean towards the Democratic Party can’t agree on what the Democratic Party should look like. MAGA/republicans for the most part are unified in their beliefs, while democrats continue to become more divided.
Thanks guys for doing this ❤❤ and I appreciate Ben for providing a more balanced view. This isn’t down to a single factor, and I think it’s absurd to not acknowledge Harris being a woman as a driving factor
Yes! I agree. Kinda disappointed in Emil for down playing the misogyny involved
Ben is way too good at pretending like he’s glitching
Glad y'all posted this!
I had this on in the background and didn’t see Ben put his shirt over his head and then got a little freaked out when I glanced over and saw him.
But seriously, this was a great listen. Feels good to have a lot of my exact opinions validated (mostly by Emil, not crazy about Ben's horseshoe theory take) while all of the other Dems in my life continue to find other people to scapegoat but themselves
Thank you for finally doing a live. LOVE THIS!!!
Ben is a National treasure. Fuck I missed you guys. I just found my TMG hoodie the other day and my first thought was. “What a mistake I didn’t buy a Ben an Emil hoodie instead”😊
I totally understand what Ben was saying- online spaces especially have gotten more and more intolerant, to the point where if you have an opinion that is not perfectly in line with anti-trumpness, (for example, saying you don’t want to vote democrat), you get called a n*zi or someone who hates women’s rights. Emil is also right- it’s mind boggling that those takes get conflated that way
YES! goes back to what we were saying toward the end -- we need to embrace the fact that there's room for MORE THAN ONE TRUTH to exist at the same time and it's a big part of the problem
@ NUANCE??? In THIS economy?????!! Hahaha love u boys, thanks for talking through it all
Goddamn I needed this.
1:09:35 Ben, I was with you abt the culture war shit regarding trans people in society (schools, sports, etc) until you tried to argue that the mainstream doesn’t care. As a trans person who has lived in Colorado, Ohio, and now rural upstate NY, the people who have the biggest (negative) opinions about trans issues are those who live in places with few to no out&proud trans or queer people. To say this is pertinent only to the big cities in this country simply isn’t reading the room.
For them, trans issues are relevant *because* it’s a safety issue in their minds. Their fear is rooted in fear for their children’s safety, and caring about your kids on its own is normal and ubiquitous.
I Just didn’t appreciate the neutering/downplaying of this, but I think it came from a lack of misinformation rather than willful ignorance ofc. Love the rest of the episode. I’m so glad yall did this.
Hate to be sincere but appreciate you guys a lot. Necessary tough love
Long time listening first time caller, I find it hard to have these conversations with friends and others for the exact reason Ben talks about. Love this stuff for real, I think both parties get caught up with the morale high ground too and I feel like Emil really kinda played into that ya know. Personally I have never heard a democrat called a nazi or anything bad but hey
Yeah because snowflake is an endearing term. Both sides do it, I don't see how anyone could not see that. The bipartisan situation we are in completely aims to divide and villainize. More needs to be talked about regarding 3rd party space also. Thats another area that Dems lost a lot of votes to by being so centrist in their campaign
thanks for the shoutout boys. we need it
Watching this episode feels like watching the election play out
this commentary really helped today ty
Fully get the vibe Ben is trying to convey here even though it’s not fully articulated. Not sure why Emil isn’t approaching it with more openness and that seems to have bogged things down, but enjoy the discourse all the same, love you guys
emil is right lol. conservative men are soft and i don’t care if they get offended for getting called out. we do not need to coddle supporters of a racist/sexist candidate. supporting such a candidate puts them in the same boat. they either need to live with the (true) labels or grow up.
seriously, especially when Ben is making his point at 57:34 . like holy shitt maybe emil's TL is just completely different from mine, but lefty twitter can be so unrelenting on their opinions, and allow for no nuance or leniency.
@@jackbuchholz9609 Ben was just saying that people would still get shit on just for being remotely in the center. It's like how the left just calls you a conservative for being moderate or center.
@ and just like how democrats would rather caucus with republicans than the left side of the party.
@@NicohamcgBecause centrism is right wing in a country where is politics are centered on center-right economics!
I’m only 12 minutes in, but I hope y’all talk about the fact that California voted for slavery!!
oh man i forgot about that one! my GUESS is it's one of those propositions that people didn't understand the phrasing of
@ we can only hope 🥲
Every time I’m reminded about people wanting to euthanize themselves, I always go back to the “suicide booth” joke in the first episode of Futurama
Thanks for the truth sesh boys, tonight was a cookin show. Thanks for the shoutout to women
What a great conversation, more live streams!
Emils patience is amazing
37:45 agreed emil, overall people still seem unhappy with the cost of living
I understand and agree that Kamala being a woman is not the sole or even biggest reason she lost. I agree with you guys about the Dems shouldering most of the blame. But that doesn’t negate the fact that being a young woman in America who has never seen a woman President feels absolutely horrific. I was 17 when I watched Hillary lose, I’m 25 now and it’s just baffling to me that we try and try and still can’t get a woman in office. Misogyny is alive today and while it’s one of a number of factors, that you guys correctly pointed out, it’s undeniable.
My grandma was born in the year women got the right to vote and passed just a couple years before Hilary ran. It’s crazy to think she lived that long and still didn’t get to ever even vote for a woman.
Two women renewed their seats in congress because they stuck to their base and the needs of their constituents. You’re essentially agreeing with the nuance of it and then immediately disregarding the nuance with a blanket statement that reads so empty
Agree. Even to the point where I think she’s not super left but her being a woman made people consider her “too left.”
I'm from Mexico, currently living in Texas for the psst year because of my husband's job.
Watching your country during this election process is somehow so familiar to what we experience in Mexico, but it's odd, like watching it happen to a friend you love, but you can't tell them what they're doing wrong or help them lol.
Yes, the friend (or about half the population) is in an abusive relationship with a narcissistic a-hole (or Republicans broadly)
More live eps! Great discussion
emil being right has never felt so bad
Love you two
Starts at 5:14 🤪
Thanks for this. It made me feel better.
50:52 I feel like this doesn’t get talked about enough, so many young voters would have likely turned blue but instead are sent into alpha/sigma pipelines and when it comes to voting time, it’s obvious who they’ll end up voting for
I see a lot of people giving Emil flak and it’s giving the same vibes as the “they hated Jesus for he told the truth” meme
I fully understood where Ben was coming from and I don’t know why Emil was playing so hard to get through to. Thank you Ben for your refreshing take!
My bad! I was a bit lost on the point. I wasn't playing lol. I still am a little. That's why I asked for examples. I think there's a lot of confusion around what is "Left" and what is "Liberal" and what is "Democrats" so I'm trying to be specific about what we're talking about when we're talking about different groups.
He was being pretty vague though to be fair
@@emilderosa100% the difference of terms was a part of it. Ben was describing the issue in a lot of leftist circles of holier-than-thou attitudes and gatekeeping that makes it a more divisive, toxic environment that pushes a lot of people away. But because he says democrats you took it to be about the Democratic Party’s messaging.
@@emilderosahonestly, my take is that this distinction is not really relevant to the point. It feels like a bit of a red herring
I love you guys thanks so much for being here when conversation really matters- it's definitely a hard time and a scary look into the future but we stay moving forward love u all
Just getting some thoughts out about the left scolding conservatives: I do agree with Emil that someone needs to do it, but I think in order for the Democratic Party to survive as a political machine, they need to separate themselves from that rhetoric. Friends scold friends for decisions all the time, and can remain friends. When it starts coming from elected officials, that’s when people change their minds. Democratic politicians can obviously still think that as is their right under the first amendment, but on paper and on camera, they need to steer the focus towards improving the economy and creating incentives for stimulating renewable energy instead of just punishing big oil. If they can show how they’re improving the lives of others fiscally, they can continue to push their social agenda (for lack of a better term) QUIETLY. Victory will lie in them being able to point to how they’re improving people’s bank accounts - it’s unfortunate that it doesn’t lie in safeguarding rights for minorities or certain groups, but I think that that’s the case.
That was my thought when I first heard the garbage quote.
Can we put these on the website after they’re recorded? Had no idea this happened until this weeks episode because you mentioned it
emil, i don't think you were being obtuse LMAO
yeah shocked by this comment section lol
scared centrist libs i guess.
@@jackbuchholz9609people don’t like to be confronted by uncomfortable facts. I thought the episode was great.
Yday was my 24th birthday and I worked all day at a pharmacy where the old people picking up their meds were in ecstasy, literally walking on air. The most direct form of gloating possible
We got a 1.5hr episode, we are THIS close to a 2hr ep 😮💨😮💨😮💨
I came here for emergency stock advice. What am I selling? What am I buying?
Doge
stoic ben arc
as a leftist, GOD I FUCKING LOVE EMIL
I love you guys but Ben is a crypto holding day trader and Emil is a former lawyer and community organizer. It’s really showing in this discussion
hey thanks for proving exactly my point. you're reducing me to one thing and invalidating my opinions and experiences therefore as being inferior, less informed, less valid. great job, you're totally right
@@benandemilshow let me cut to the chase because you’re putting words in my mouth that I did not say.
You are being chronically online.
I don’t mean this as holier than thou, or wokescolding, or whatever your problem is with online dems.
This “liberals will call you a naxi for one little disagreement” take is rooted in online reply guys, the average person does not think that way. And you making all of dems problem is also emblematic of the toxic situation we find ourselves in.
Twitter, instagram and Reddit are not real life. Some weirdo called you a nazi in a comment, that’s horrible, but it’s not reflective of the Democratic Party, or leftists (two different parties in my mind) as a whole.
I want you to go talk to 50 real people, dems specifically, and tell them your moderate take. Please come back and tell me how many people IN REAL LIFE called you a naxi.
I don’t envy you, having to be plugged in to do your trading job effectively. you have to know the second that things happen so you can react accordingly. You have a lot of information being blasted at you constantly.
Emil campaigned for dems, he knocking on doors, and had to actually explain official Democratic Party talking points to people. I just think his lived experience and yours are motivating your reaction to dems in this episode, that’s all I’m saying.
No one’s better than the other, I just think you’re conflating weirdos on the internet with real life. It just seems like some people want to challenge your assessments, and you are using that as fuel for your point “why go to the left, you’re just gonna yell at me anyways”.
Please remember that we like you and Emil and the show. This lashing out at your own audience for a slight difference is strangely, your exact point; but YOU are doing it to US.
@@benandemilshow let me cut to the chase because you’re putting words in my mouth that I did not say.
You are being chronically online.
I don’t mean this as holier than thou, or wokescolding, or whatever your problem is with online dems.
This “liberals will call you a n*z for one little disagreement” take is rooted in online reply guys, the average person does not think that way. And you making all of dems problem is also emblematic of the toxic situation we find ourselves in.
Twitter, instagram and Reddit are not real life. Some weirdo called you a n*z in a comment, that’s horrible, but it’s not reflective of the Democratic Party, or leftists (two different parties in my mind) as a whole.
I want you to go talk to 50 real people, dems specifically, and tell them your moderate take. Please come back and tell me how many people IN REAL LIFE called you a n*z.
I don’t envy you, having to be plugged in to do your trading job effectively. you have to know the second that things happen so you can react accordingly. You have a lot of information being blasted at you constantly.
Emil campaigned for dems, he knocking on doors, and had to actually explain official Democratic Party talking points to people. I just think his lived experience and yours are motivating your reaction to dems in this episode, that’s all I’m saying.
No one’s better than the other, I just think you’re conflating weirdos on the internet with real life. It just seems like some people want to challenge your assessments, and you are using that as fuel for your point “why go to the left, you’re just gonna yell at me anyways”.
Please remember that we like you and Emil and the show. This lashing out at your own audience for a slight difference is strangely, your exact point; but YOU are doing it to US.
@@benandemilshow that’s not what I said and you know it. Seems like you want to be upset and lash out at us for something that happened on Twitter
@@benandemilshow I know you’re frustrated that people have said shitty things to you online, but painting all of dems with this brush of being wokescolds further exasperates the problem.
I challenge you to go tell 50 real life dems your moderate take, and I want you to tell me how many of them call you bad names. The problem you’re experiencing is psychos online, not dems, not leftists. This is only happening on Twitter
mommy and daddy are fighting again
I think at 57:34, I'd have to agree with Ben. I think both the boys were close to sharing the same feelings of bias within media. However, I think Emil couldn't follow the idea of how having certain centralist ideas and constantly being pushed into the realm of extremism, usually by the far left could have led to deciding to vote red, particularly for trump. Just like you both mentioned earlier, there is a large group of people who voted for Biden/Obama, but decided to vote for trump this election. Of course there are bigger factors playing a role but I can understand what Ben was trying to say.
Yeah I get it too. I think he’s talking about ppl like Hassan without using his name cos he doesn’t want the drama most likely.
Emil is so unbelievably spot on. My guy is BDE, big dick Emil
I don’t really disagree with much said but if we’re tiptoeing around people’s feelings, there can be absolutely no more tolerance of men saying anything about women being too emotional.
I thin Emil's reaction to Ben is kind of indicative of the point Ben was trying to make. While Emil is tracking that the cause/effect of wokescolding leading to a shift right SHOULDN'T make sense to voters who care about issues, I think a lot of voters care more about political vibes, ultimately.
Ben’s position is fundamentally illogical. When a moderate wins, it’s a sign we need to be moderate because moderation works. When a moderate like Kamala loses, it’s a sign we weren’t moderate enough. It’s not responding to a stimulus and making a logical reaction based on the events before you. It’s confirming your priors. Love the show though.
If a moderate losing in large part because their base and independent voters found their platform totally uninspiring does not make you think centrism is a bad idea, I struggle to see what stimulus would convince you that a move towards a populist left is right.
i'm talking about messaging and intra-party dynamics that have become toxic, uninviting, and holier-than-thou. EDIT: because it's much more than just the candidate and platform; it's the party as a whole and everything that it drags behind it like a cultural comet's tail.
@@benandemilshow Thanks for the reply! That’s fair. I agree that in-fighting is one of the biggest issues with the party (and a pet peeve of mine), I just think that the messaging vibe of the campaign and its platform probably impacts swing voters more than the intra-party vibes on Twitter-which are horrible but mostly experienced by those already in left spaces. Again, thanks for actually hearing me out and responding.
as an expat with a whole lot of "america stupid" around me, this was refreshing to listen to. thanks for the discourse 🫡
if you don't mind me asking, where did you relocate to?
@ i'm in south korea!! been here 4+ years :)
@@taylorsuns146 oh cool!! love that for u lol
I loved this.
Hey ben & Emil the volume was noticeably quiet when watching this
You guys should have Kyla on to discuss market ramifications
Is this real life?! 🎉 I'm catching the live late. What a time to be alive.
Hi Ben and Emil. I am SAD 🇺🇸
Love u both but if anyone was being scoldy it was Madam ‘I’m speaking’
The problem is we ran a campaign saying hey we arent Trump., which worked in 2020. That was not enough this time around. We needed to show why we arent Trump. Dems never did that.
Go live tomorrow!!
Ben was spot on at 1:02:06 “I think this is the problem”😂 democrats have become anyone that isn’t voting for the other guy and we are finding out.. we really disagree on a lot of things. Just end up running with whoever is the loudest in the room and hope people vote for it.
love you guys muah