Difference Between Methodists and Lutherans
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- Опубликовано: 22 мар 2022
- How is Wesleyan Arminianism different from the Lutheran confession of the Faith? What are the other differences? And what about the coming "amicable separation" in the United Methodist Church?
**UPDATE** On March 3, 2022, after recording this episode the UMC has postponed its General Conference which would decide on the "amicable separation." It's not going to happen until at least 2024.
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If a sermon title at church has ever resembled, "Chose to Elect Yourself" - you might be Methodist.
I regret that I have only one 'like' to give for this comment. LOL
ATP remains my favorite doctrinal channel for Pastor Sullivan’s extraordinary ability to demonstrate highly intelligent discussions matched with brevity, wit, and of course, scripture.
Honestly one of the best channels on RUclips period
Ya'll are too kind. I'm just a parish pastor with a webcam. To God be the glory.
It's sad to see the low number of subscribers for good Lutheran channels compared to fake churches or all the calvinistic channels. Even compared to other good Lutheran content this channel's subs are low. Fighting for the Faith does well, but I don't have time to watch all his videos. They are just too long
You know years ago Methodist and Lutherans use to get along on a "personal" level. I have seen a very concerning trend within the Lutheran Church's practicing figuratively speaking trench warfare amongst other church's (not just Methodist) and taking on a holier than thou attitude. Lutherans have lost a lot of the muscle they had in the 70's and 80's and are slowly going in the direction of what has happened to the church of the nazarene. It's a shame really. I'm not even talking about conservative or liberal approaches either.
Thanks for the video. You have clearly demonstrated some of the differences between Lutherans and Methodists. However, I would say that you have mistaken some of what Wesleyans believe. One example is that you seem to confuse prevenient grace with justifying grace at certain points. First, there is a difference between being born with an inherrent grace, on the one hand, and receiving, or being covered by prevenient grace at one's birth. Prevenient grace is still grace that is given (to all), not something that is of the essence of the person. - One of the places where it sounds as though you are confusing prevenient and justifying grace (in Methodist beliefs) is when you speak of infant baptism. It sounds as though you think that Methodists believe that the infant is baptized because they have already been "justified" or "born again." But Wesley believed in baptismal regeneration for those infants. They received regenerating grace in and through the sacrament of holy baptism. - There are those Wesleyans who disagree with Wesley about baptismal regeneration. They may still baptize based on prevenient grace, much like you described, except they still would not say that it is because that child has already experienced justification or regeneration. Rather, it would be, 1) recognizing that they are covered by prevenient grace, and 2) with a view toward the time when they are able to accept God's justifying, regenerating grace through personal faith. - Of course, like the Lutherans, there are a number of "Methodist" denominations with variations among them. - Thank you, again, for your video.
Wow, realized how much farther methodist I am. Definitely hold to molinistic eschatology. The arminian view of enablement rather than inherent ability from the Methodists definitely is closer to my belief.
Methodists, at least those who actually still care about the professed doctrine of their denomination, seem to regard Wesley's revival movement as being a Second Reformation in which the imperfect reforms of Luther and Calvin were brought to a more perfect conclusion.
Basically, Luther paved the way for Wesley, and Wesley got it better.
It's really interesting how underappreciated the influence of Methodism is on modern Christendom. Methodism has had huge cross-denominational influence that most people don't realize. As I understand the modern ideas of "Bible studies" and "Sunday School" originated with Methodism. Much of American civic religion comes out of Methodism, such as the Pledge of Allegiance. And of course, Pentecostalism was indirectly birthed from Methodism.
Also, when Methodists split from Anglicanism, not all Methodists actually left the Church of England and Episcopal Church. Methodism is still an openloy tolerated minority tradition within Anglicanism.
Unfortunately there are a lot of people in Lutheran churches who are for all intents and purposes crypto-Methodists even if they don't realize it.
You are incorrect. Anglicans do not recognize the validity of Methodist orders. Wesley was a priest, not a bishop and therefore his ordinations are invalid. This is why Anglicans and Methodists are not in communion.
At least one of Joseph Smith's parents was a methodist. I think his parents became Mormons.
What do you think about a Lutheran church that has open communion? I attended a Lutheran church, never went through catechism and they let me have communion. Looking back I wish I went through the catechism process.
Never in true Lutheran. We don’t because one must know why we partake of the Holy Eucharist or you take it to your damnation. The Scriptures are clear on this.
Very good Theology. Very LC-MS and Biblical teaching!!!
I'm going to go out on a limb as someone who has had visionary experiences and was not raised in church. Decades later, as part of Disciple 1 study I read over and over in the old testament that social injustice was chief among the causes of God's displeasure with his people. Jesus as well associated with and healed the sinners of his day. I suspect He would be shaking his head at Church rules.
Hypocrites and social injustice still exist wether in church or out of church. In my view and experience the idea of belief without direct experience of God is making believe. No amount of rules replace the experiential. In fact some of the rules suppress spiritual expression. Saying it doesn't make it so. There are so many contradictory things said in the Bible that one can make a case for just about any behavior as right or wrong. Love is the key and that’s where the work needs to be done.
Frankly I wonder about the sexual issues. Science-wise we know that people are not always born heterosexual. By that, I mean through no choice of their own their own (LGBQT+) people with physical, mental, social differences are not recognized as God given deviation from the heterosexual male and female. We accept genetic variations like Downs Syndrome and a number of recognized genetic related differences that affect reproduction are not the individual's choice.
We are called to Love and find Peace in whatever our circumstances.
The ELCA is just as non Christian as the UMC unfortunately. In my area the biggest and most beautiful Lutheran Church has a female pastor. It’s sad to see the unwillingness of Christian churches to abide by sola scriptura.
What's the difference between Catholics and Lutherans???? I may go to Lutheran service and check things out?
How much time do you have? ;)
Check out this playlist. Some of the topics might help:
ruclips.net/p/PLgcePX5zNB9I4EEV6WG5nSfW5LqjCnMjE
Good works. That’s what the old 1960, Lutheran booklet titled “Our Church and Theirs” stated about Methodists.
well I'm glad you know what methodists believe.. I've been in UMC since birth and I've never figured it out. my church is discerning now whether to leave or not. gotten so far from Scripture. so much culture infiltated. I'm not sure what will happen
I was attending a Nazarene church (a Wesleyan denominational branch) prior to my conversion to Lutheranism, and it's fascinating to me how much of American evangelicalism has infiltrated most of the denomination. While I've never been fully aboard with Wesleyanism anyway, the charismatic/pentecostal and megachurch practices have at least in part found a foothold in several of these churches (not to mention elements of the liberal emergent church).
I was raised in the UMC because my father was Methodist, my mother was Lutheran. There’s no middle ground between Methodism and Lutheranism so they had to choose one or the other.
I was raised Methodist and left the UMC at 19 after I read an article on the UMC’s website about entire sanctification the article seemed to suggest that sinless perfection was possible. That’s one of several theological reasons I left the Methodist church.
I'm a Presbyterian. But I attend a Methodist regularly. I'm basically a voting member of two churches. When the Methodist pastor told us that we could all be perfect in this life, I couldn't believe it. He quoted Matthew 5:48. But from what I know about Romans 3:10 and I John 1:8, I know that interpretation is wrong. No one can be completely perfect in this life. We all stumble, and fall back and forth into sin.
@@ianpardue2615 be a confessional lutheran.
@@jordantsak7683 While I agree with the Book of Concord, I disagree with historicism. The distance is also a problem. I live in a very rural town in Mississippi, with very few options. I would be closer to Lutheranism (Baptismal Regeneration, Private Absolution, Real Corporeal Presence), than Methodism and Presbyterianism.
I am not able to give you a thumbs up. It keeps denying it.I was brought up Methodist and I really learned a lot here. Thank you.
Can you 'like' it now, a day later? If not then I've got some thinks to think.
@@AskThePastor It finally let me later. It was very strange. I am glad I listened; I learned a lot.
Ty for doing this. You need to ‘dumb it down’ a little or get more to basics.
Critique, not criticism.
Unfortunately, this post was not very educational to individuals that are neither Lutheran or Methodist. For example, you went into great detail about Methodists, and how they relate to gay marriage, but you never went into detail about Lutherans stance? You spoke in great detail about an individual named Wesley but did not indicate who this individual was? Never heard of him. For individuals looking for spiritual guidance and who have not been raised within the confines of any religion this was most confusing.
YT going hard on the censoring today. Can't like, another Livestream not working. Start looking for alternatives people
Have you been able to in the last 24 hours? If not, I have some things to think about.
@@AskThePastor I can like now. Thanks for following up. Still probably worth looking into alternatives but might not be urgent.
Do you believe John Wesley is in heaven?
If John Wesley is not in heaven then I think I never met anyone who is
@@user-se3zq2hn6t I hope you're right. Obviously he's a Lutheran now if so.
@@RepublicofE Everyone says that about their denomination
My understanding from listening to professing Methodists and watching videos about Methodism is that they attempt something of a middling position between the Lutheran and Reformed views of the Lord's Suffer.
That is, they say Christ is literally present somehow in the elements, but they don't believe the Bible specifies in what way he is present, therefore a Methodist is free to believe in a bodily real presence, spiritual presence, or otherwise.
(In practice though, it seems none of them believe in a bodily real presence)
no, most of you have said is not what the Wesleyans believe.
You're welcome to explain why you claim that.
@@theodosios2615 what Lutherans believe, or Roman Catholics, or Calvinists, etc., is found in their Articles of Faith, not based on what two guys over there believe.
I'm a Presbyterian. But I attend a UMC Church sometimes. The following errors are what I've heard personally in the UMC:
(I) The Words of God in the Bible are literally true, such as the Creation Account, the Global Flood, and etc. But that the words of men which are the stuff that God didn't say, such as the stuff that condemns feminism and female ordination, are not true. That St Mary and St Martha had a ministry just like the Twelve Apostles had.
(II) Sexual relations before marriage are not sinful.
(III) Divorce is not sinful.
(IV) Teetotalism and the holiness code have been abandoned. There was this one elderly woman who showed up to the church in a see through shirt. You could see her undergarments.
(V) On the non-essential things they allow a great deal of diversity. As long as it doesn't contradict the Articles of Religion, you can basically believe whatever you desire. So a belief like soul sleep or annihilationism could be tolerated in some parishes.
(VI) They openly deny the Descent into Hades, and have taken it out of the Apostles Creed.
Divorce isn’t always sinful, but it can be sometimes.
I can say that when I go to church with my parents I’m the most modestly dressed woman in my age group. Social holiness has gone out the window.
There are probably a few people in my congregation who are tee-totalers. There’s nothing inherently wrong with drinking/not drinking. But, the problem comes when we force other people to adopt our view.
@@doraashby I think it is always sinful to divorce. Because the Scriptures imply that God only allows divorce as a concession for adultery and the Pauline privilege:
"He answered, Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh? So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate. They said to him, Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce and to send her away? He said to them, BECAUSE OF YOUR HARDNESS OF HEART MOSES ALLOWED YOU TO DIVORCE YOUR WIVES, BUT FROM THE BEGINNING IT WAS NOT SO. And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery" (Matthew 19:4-9).
"FOR I HATE DIVORCE, says the Lord, the God of Israel, and covering one's garment with violence and do not be faithless" (Malachi 2:15).
@@doraashby But the rest of that stuff you've said I agree with. Because the media continues to call it a conservative vs a progressive fight. In reality, both sides are modernists, it's just one side wants to go all the way with it.
@@ianpardue2615
I agree with you on this.
@@ianpardue2615
What do you mean by both sides are modernists?