Difference between Lutheran and Calvinian Predestination
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- Опубликовано: 24 июл 2024
- How is the Lutheran doctrine of predestination different from the Calvinian doctrine? Are single and double predestination a distinction without a difference?
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Do you have any vids or maybe a quick answer?
How do lutherans view the reformed doctrine of compatablism?
That determinism and free will are compatible?
Compatibilism is determinism.
In compatibilism who determines secondary causes?
In reformed theology God ordains whatsoever comes to pass which would include secondary causes.
Hi Pastor! I was wondering if calvin and luther differences are less critical differences VS like differences in protestant theology VS catholic theology. For example, do calvinist and lutherans agree on justification and salvation, but rather disagree more so in predestination etc?
sacraments are the primary reason the Reformed and Lutherans are seperated
Lutherans are closer to catholics than calvanists
Thanks for an honest response. I will try and understand your explanation in lieu of Romans 9 and Christ's commentary to his parable of the Wheat and the Tares Mt. 13: 38,39 and to Genesis 3:15. And not to forget the Epistle of Jude, esp vs.4.
As an aside, it's difficult for me to understand your fast talking lack of an accent. I'm a native Texan. Would you work on adding a little drawl, please? I mean, since you're here. 😉
If I could throw in my two cents’ worth on the discussion in the comments about passages from Jude - it interests me very much that when Luther did his first Bible translation, he placed 4 books at the end in an appendix as he had doubts about their canonicity. Jude was one of these, and I can certainly see his point, due to the quotations from Enoch, and the strange anecdote about the body of Moses. Perhaps Jude is not an inspired book, and this would be a way to solve the perplexity of the commenter , Pastor. I hope my opinion is taken lightly and does not cause offence!
Your comment causes no offense whatsoever. It makes me wonder if eusebius first put this book in the disputed category. If memory serves, he did. I don't think that's a sufficient answer since it is viewed as canonical but your point stands that we don't formulate doctrine from the disputed books alone.
Pastor Sullivan, it seems to me that Jude 4 might indicate double predestination ("...who were of old ordained to this condemnation...") and also 1 Peter 2:8 ("...being disobedient: whereunto they were also appointed"), although I think 1 Peter 2:8 has a less "permanent" feel to it. What are your thoughts, particularly re Jude 4, please? Perhaps I am misunderstanding. Quotes from KJV. Many thanks!!
I haven't gotten around to looking into Jude 4 yet. It's on the list though :)
@@AskThePastor Thank you!!! I will then standby patiently! This is a slightly troublesome question for me, in that I have trouble getting to the bottom of it myself with complete satisfaction, so I appreciate all of your thoughts on it!
I understand and appreciate your thirst for knowledge and understanding! That's one of the reasons I started ATP back in 2013. I will do my best to get to this sooner rather than later. Curiosity, after all, killed the cat.
@@AskThePastor Many thanks, but I do realize you have more going on than ATP, so I am happy to wait, knowing it is on your list!
@@jonamarinch , thank you for your thoughtful reply. It is a question I have trouble getting to the bottom of, and I often just figure I don't need to know and rest in that how God does things is his business -- it is my business to say Yes to Jesus. Everyone seems to require a certain amount of calisthenics to get to their answer, if you know what I mean. Praise God through Christ Jesus for great platforms like this on which to exchange ideas!!!
So, in other words, God predestined the method but not the outcome?
Lutherans are fine with paradox if it's not explicitly seen in Scripture. While Calvinists like to follow everything to its logical conclusion until they cannot any further. (Such as God's eternal decrees) Both are fine traditions, and are what I'd imagine the closest you'll find to the early church. God bless.
God elected certain individuals in Christ. The names of the elect are written in a book, and this book is Jesus Christ. To be elect, you must be in Christ. As the Son of God, Jesus is eternal and He transcends time.
God predestibed the method but not the outcome, is the view of most non calvinist Baptists. We veleieve they are "chosen in Christ". So in other words if i had already determined that the New York Yankees would win the world series, that would not in any way negate the fact the team membership is open to all who wish to join. the team wins whether you join or not, because the win is not determined by the ability of those who join, it is determined by the owner of the team. So if you join the team (faith in Christ) you could say you were chosen in eternity past, because the TEAM was chosen in eternity past
Um, The Bible never uses the term predestination to refer to election to salvation. Predestination and election are not the exact same thing, and election is used with multiple and different applications. Predestination always refers to the qualitative destiny of those who will believe in Jesus Christ, such as predestined to be conformed to the image of God 's Son. Predestination never refers to getting saved but to the qualitative result of salvation.
Now in all fairness, there is a very notable difference between the types of Calvinism beyond one sounding nicer than the other. And that is that the first implies that God ordains people not just to salvation, but to damnation as well. The huge problem with this is that it implies that God is giving people an inclination toward sin, and working sin into them, which can't be true as a worker of iniquity God is not. As opposed to the latter that allows moreso that God does not make people sinful, but instead passes over them to allow them to work in their own iniquity, many saying that he not only passes over them, but blatantly doesn't acknowledge them, taking Christ's words of "depart from me, I never knew you" in the most literal sense.
But if every single sin is contrary to God's will you have the problem of God being unable to prevent evil in which case the entire planet of salvation may just fail since things can happen contrary to it.
What’s the difference between elca and lcms
I'm some parishes, a lot. In other parishes, hardly any.
@@AskThePastor truth. Today the LCMS is in a pathetic state of heretical preaching in many while a few across the country are still trying to cling to Scripture interprets scripture. Sad.
@@edwardluth7740 why
@@StaunchlyLutheran well listen to Pastor Herman Ottens speeches on here and his write ups. And think Marxism. Bolshevik Communism. They took Russia after WW1. They want the West. These liberals infiltrate our schools and colleges and yes at Concordia too. And few Lutherans today have any guts to stand up against these vile people. Luther told it as it was. He aimed right at the church and hit em hard. He attacked the Princes and King Henry 8. He also warned the west about the Jews and they own our banking system and Hollywood and the media. So free Masons and Vatican 2 and Judeo Bolshevik communism are our enemies. The goal? Destroy Christianity and the West with lies and deceptions and bringing in Muslins and Hindus and others who don’t believe as we do. And we are not having babies like we should and did up until the last 30 to 40 years. See the 1924 Coolidge Immigration law. The Congress ignores it. And it shows. Any time too much evil creeps into a nation and the Christian people do nothing we suffer. Biblical history proves this every time. And LCMS promotes Dietrich Bonhoeffer today. He was not hero. He denied the resurrection and when he came to America he didn’t go to a conservative Lutheran church. No! He went to a Baptist church and worked with them for months in NY. Your hero that should be promoted today is Walter Maier Sr! My Grandparents loved to hear him on the radio.
@@edwardluth7740 well im fairly new to the Lutheran faith and while what you say .ay be true i imagine there are faithful LCMS synods and others that are not so much.
Didn't Luther teach that man became totally depraved by the effects of original sin, rendering him incapable of accepting or co-operating with God's grace from his own will? If this is the case, then Calvin brings this theory of Luther (which I don't think the Bible teaches) to it's logical conclusion. If there is no human free will involved in salvation, then both salvation and damnation boils down entirely to whatever God decrees. Logically, there's no getting around this.
It just sounds nicer 😂😂😂
If God 'isn't willing that any should perish', why didn't God predestine all? (Since Lutherans hold to predestination).
he did predestine all....all that come to Christ in faith. If you come to Him, you are IN CHRIST. CHRIST IS THE ELECT OF GOD, the chosen one, Thats the non calvinist non arminiam Baptist view anyways
@@caman171 Obviously, He didn't predestinate all to eternal life, as some die in unbelief.
@@Rich-vp4ih did you even read what i said? "all that come to Christ" is pretty clear. He gives everyone the chance to be include in His predestination. Your predestination does not begin until you believe
True, all that come to Christ are predestined (elect), otherwise God is not a gambler leaving our destiny to chance. Last I checked ‘pre’ is a prefix meaning before. He destined us before the foundation of the world.
@@Rich-vp4ih obviously you dont read English very well. Re-read my statement. JESUS IS THE ELECT LAMB OF GOD predestined to be slain for the sins of humanity. NO ONE is predestined for salvation, BUT those that are saved are predestined for glorification. The chapter in Romans is not dealing with salvation. Paul is telling the Jews that God can choose whoever He wants to do His work. "Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated" is NOT speaking of those two as individuals, it is speaking of the nations they spawned. God chose one nation to be His vessel for bringing the messiah. See Gen 25:22 which says "The LORD said to her, “Two NATIONS are in your womb, and two peoples from within you will be separated; one people will be stronger than the other, and the older will serve the younger." Nowhere in Romans 9 does it speak of individual salvation. Does God leave our salvation to "chance"? NO. He leaves it to us. Deut 30:19"I set before you life and death, therefore CHOOSE life." Romans 10:9 "if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" I have never met a Calvinist or a Lutheran or a Catholic for that matter, that KNOWS whether or not they are saved. How sad. 1 John 5::13 says " These things have I written unto you, that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal life, even unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God." Unless you KNOW on what basis God chooses, you cannot know if you have eternal life.
You realize you're going to have to explain the difference between Arminian and Lutheran predestination now, right? ;)
LOL! I didn't think this through 🤔
Ask The Pastor when is part ll out mate 🙃
Been trying to put a concrete answer together on this one for a while now, especially if one holds themselves to finding those answers clearly in texts from orthodoxy. Not easy!
I don't quite follow
I mean finding texts from Lutheran orthodoxy dealing with Jacobus Arminius. I've only ever found small bits.
Ask the Pastor:
Some calvinists say Luther would have agreed with the 5 points of calvinism. And that the reason why today most Lutherans don't believe in the TULIP is because lutherans departed from Luther's teachings because of Melachton. Is that true? What are Luther's writings where we can check whether or not he believed in double predestination and in all the tulip points?
Luther would not have agreed with TULIP Calvinism. He made a few statements in his work "Bondage of the Will" that Calvinsts latch onto, and one comment in his lectures on Romans. Luther did not, however, teach and limited atonement, nor does he teach an absolute decree of predestination (absolute=with regard to nothing). A video on Luther's Bondage of the Will is coming out soon (within the next month, I believe).
@@AskThePastor Thanks for the answer. I'll be waiting for it.
That’s a Myth that Dr. James White, who doesn’t know much about Lutheranism, has propagated. Watch Dr. Jordan Cooper’s clarification of Dr. White’s false claim.
Romans Chapter 9 is the reason Lutheran theology is wrong. Limited atonement ( particular atonement, irresistible grace and perseverance of the saints ,fit perfectly in this chapter. Rejection of these theological understandings doesn’t make sense when trying to understand Romans chapter 9.
Romans 9:22-23
22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory
Where in these verses does it say God chose some for wrath. I see it says God chose them himself for glory, but not chose them himself for wrath. But rather it just says they are chose for wrath, which in context of the rest of the bible that would be by sin and the devil.
No?
Calvinist predestination have gone too far, by saying that God has elected some to salvation and others to damnation, they would be nullifying a large part of the biblical doctrine of salvation.
If we are destined to be saved by God, (which apparently is totally random because there is no reason to save some and condemn others) then sin would have little or no meaning in human life since he who sins but is "predestined" will be forgiven, and it would even be affecting the same grace by which we are all saved since NO ONE had the characteristics to be saved, NO ONE ABSOLUTELY NO ONE, but thanks to Jesus Christ, ALL WHO COME TO HIM are justified by his grace. If we say that there are some who were already chosen from eternity then GOD WOULD NOT BE JUST, God gives according to the actions of humans, also to say that God does not break covenants and promises is a total lie, in the Bible shows when God changes his mind, and it is not because he does not know everything, but because of love towards humans.
In fact, let's see with adam and eve, God surely knew in his eternity that adam and eve were going to sin and that later they were going to repent, but if we say that they were predestined then we take away their guilt, if they were predestined to be saved then the sin of disobedience means nothing, and if they were predestined to damnation, then God would have moved and coordinated everything to condemn the first man and the first woman???? is totally illogical and not biblical.
And besides, it is not what Christians have believed for so many centuries if it is true that salvation is by grace, and that grace is for EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM, without exception, if we say that there are some predestined for damnation, and they come to Christ then the blood of Christ would not be enough to deliver them from damnation, clearly Calvinist predestination is VERY WRONG.
We are all condemned, but Jesus by coming to die for all has the power to restore and save from condemnation EVERYONE WHO COMES TO HIM.
Yikes.....I lost you in the first paragraph!
Jerome Zanchi was the best theologian ever! (John Gill is also extremely good) While Calvin is very good. Luther is in the same category as Augustine or Tertullian. Good but also a muddlehead.
Sounds like a very muddled opinion by a prideful person.
I've read a lot of Augustine, and none of it has seemed muddled. He was a clear thinker.
For Protestants, as with Sunnis in Islam, how you act with the next one, including the VERY LIFE EXAMPLE of Christ in loving the next as much as you love thyself, a devotion to the well-being of the next, does NOT play a role in Salvation, and more concretely God's approbation of your merits.
Max Weber was right that the spirit of individualistic capitalism is rooted in Protestant "ethics", which, since it no longer deals with our acts and merely with our cognitive processes (faith, in Luther) or not even that (in Calvin) is no longer an ethics.
Those corrupt Italic clergymen created this hybris and, as science is yelling, apocalypse.
Good luck with green individualism, consumerism, capitalism. Disregard for earthly Justice and the suffering of other Beings.
God from the beginning did not elect people to salvation??? Uuhh, OOOPPS!!!
Thanks for the video. New subscriber✋ Need ur email for questions.