Differences between LCMS and WELS
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- Опубликовано: 20 июл 2024
- My website: www.jordanbcooper.com
Patreon: / justandsinner
In this video I discuss the differences between the LCMS (Lutheran Church Missouri Synod) and WELS (Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod). Specifically, I address the question of church fellowship and prayer fellowship.
I am currently attending an LCMS Church in Ontario, Canada. Even though it is an American church, there are a few congregations here in Canada. Great pastor, beautiful people, amazing hymns, multiple Bible study groups.
Too liberal for me
@@truearyan1217 You would be shocked here then, as LCMS is a conservative congregation compared to many other churches in Canada. It is almost unbearable to even be a Christian here.
@@truearyan1217 Not LCMS. LCMS is the most conservative. ELCA and WELS are leftwing.
@@billbecker5357 They were talking about Canada as a whole not the LCMS.
@@billbecker5357 WELS has the exact same theology as LCMS. Both confess the Book of Concord as their statement of faith. The preface of the book of Concord states that Scripture is the Only authority over theology. All confessional Lutherans are very strict about compromising doctrine. Closed communion, confessional Lutheran pastors only preach from confessional Lutheran pulpits and one else may, no interfaith services, Lutheran pastors do not lead public prayer where they may be expected to compromise, etc. WELS is stricter than the LCMS. For example LCMS congregations have sponsored Boy Scout troups but WELS rejects the Scouts because they require belief in A god without being specific. There are other smaller denominations who are of similar mind.
The ELCA on the other hand is "Progressive". They believe that the Bible only contains some words of God and that the rest is man made. They also endorse only those parts of the Book of Concord that endorse their views. I was called a "sodomite" by an ELCA member because I insist that the physical act involved in homosexuality is a sin. The ELCA installed a lesbian Bishop. They endorse the whole LGBTQ agenda. The discussion about ELCA among confessional Lutherans when they stoop low enough to have it is whether the ELCA is unChristian or just heretical. And this is people who insist that most other denominations including the RCC have some false doctrines but are Christian and their members are saved if they believe their churches dogma.
Long time athiest, firat time Christian. I go to an ELS church which is basically the same WELS (not sure about the prayer part though) it's nice to get a history on these two.
Thanks! These explanations are really helpful for us Lutherans in other parts of the world (in my case Australia) trying to make sense of the Lutheran scene in the USA where so many resources come from.
I'm a WELS pastor. I think this video is fairly accurate but incomplete. I recommend checking out a WELS source. Since WELS (and the ELS, in fellowship with WELS) is smaller and has to define itself in relation to LCMS more often, WELS sources will have more info. To complete his answer I would add (with open, but not acrimonious bias):
A. WELS/ELS is more consistent in its confessional practice, because we view the synod as a viable form of "church" able to practice church discipline. It is easier to remove erring pastors in WELS. I have several friends in the LCMS, and I have heard that open communion is a common problem for them. Not for WELS.
B. WELS/ELS does not allow women to have authoritative roles in the church, in keeping with 1 Tim 2:12, and since the voters' assembly is the highest authority in a congregation, women do not participate in that assembly. This is different from the LCMS, which generally allows women to participate in the congregatioal voters' assembly. They also might allow women elders or council members depending on the congregation, though I'm not sure how common that is. That cannot happen in WELS. Each of our districts has a constitutional committee that would reject such a church constitution.
C. WELS/ELS do not define the office of the ministry or the phrase "rite vocatus" in Augustana 14 as narrowly as our LCMS counterparts. I'm not familiar enough with LCMS practice to know if this distinction makes a difference in the way we actually do things. It seems like our call systems are pretty similar.
D. You might also mention that the leaders of WELS and ELS have met annually for the last few years with President Harrison of the LCMS and have gotten along, but both sides recognized we're not close to reestablishing fellowship.
E. To give a little nuance, WELS is not completely rigid with personal prayer fellowship in every situation. We do hold that prayer is a form of joint worship (isn't it?) and therefore will decline, as a matter of confession, to pray with those who hold different confessions, especially in public settings. We encourage members to think about the confession their joint prayer gives. However, we don't normally discipline our members for praying with family members who belong to other churches. In fact, I've never heard of that happening. But we would speak to and eventually could end up disciplining someone involved in, say, Campus Crusade for Christ, especially if they took a leadership position. We also make a biblically based distinction between "weak brothers" and "persistent errorists" and allow prayer with the former. We don't join in public events that combine clergy from all denominations, such as the national day of prayer, because such things actually cheapen Christianity, water down our confession of Christ to a mere name, promote American civic religion at the expense of the true gospel, and minimize doctrinal differences. All of our military "chaplains" are private citizens outside of the military because to serve in the military as a chaplain would require ignoring doctrinal differences.
F. Because we are more united doctrinally and small enough to know and trust each other, the form of worship used in a congregation (high church vs. low church) is not a generally divisive issue among WELS pastors, nor is it considered a sign of "conservative" vs. "liberal." Few WELS pastors wear collars and whatever those Catholic-looking shirts are called, nor do we care that much if someone else does. It's an adiaphoron with no deeper meaning attached.
That being said, the differences are not huge. In the grand scheme of things we're pretty similar to the LCMS and thankful for their work spreading the gospel and our confessional Lutheran heritage.
Aaron West WELS seems to have a low church pietist flare in liturgical regards if I’m not wrong with the signals I’ve gotten.
The vestments of the western catholic tradition have long since been upheld through the Lutheran tradition as a badge of its conservative-catholicity against the radical nature of the reformed and others (AC XXIV - “the rites and customs and all the usual VESTMENTS...)
Whereas, WELS teaches these things as irrelevant and having no inherent meaning.. despite the confessions stating the opposite: that these traditions exist to convey doctrine and are kept diligently..
So who’s Confessional really?
@@aaroncarlson1162 I disagree that the statement you cited, which comes from the Apology, is a prescriptive statement mandating specific vestments for all Lutherans of all times and in all places. I see it as descriptive, not prescriptive.
Aaron West this is what I have to say about that: www.scribd.com/document/63545807/An-Apology-for-the-Historic-Lutheran-Divine-Service-LPLC-2009-Rev
Aaron West
An excerpt:
“there is something more to the Confessions, something that goes beyond the mere formulation of doctrinal statements. The Mindset of the Confessions determines the way questions are approached. The Confessions establish the general hermeneutic of what Krauth calls “the Conservative Reformation.” The basic divide between those who advocate a mere Confessional Minimalism and those who advocate adhering to the Confessional Mindset is the distinction between prescriptive and descriptive statements in the Confessions. Confessional Minimalism says that only the doctrinal statements in the Confessions mean anything. It is only that which tells me what to believe, the prescriptive doctrinal statements, that matter. Anything else in the Confessions, anything other than the raw doctrinal data, is as little binding on me as the Formula of Concord's statement that garlic juice impedes magnetism.
The Confessional Mindset is more sweeping. It sees more substance in the descriptive statements of the Confessions. Those statements tell us how the churches of the Augsburg Confessionlived out their confession. Confessional Mindset partisans are less sanguine about the possibility of separating doctrine from its expression in the life of the parish. The difference between the Minimalist and Mindset approaches is the difference between mechanical and organic models of doctrine. For the Minimalist, doctrine is data, stuff, items, points, things. These doctrinal points, like ball bearings, are self-contained and can be moved from one context to another without diminishing or endangering their nature, their ball-bearing-ness. Mindsetists, on the other hand, view doctrine organically - more as a plant that grows best in a certain climate. To move that plant from one climate to another can endanger its health or even its very nature.”
@@aaroncarlson1162 Thank you for the article. I have a different perspective. I think appealing to the "Confessional Mindset" is vague and dangerously subjective. The confessions are texts, and if you can't make the argument from an honest reading of the texts, you shouldn't make the argument. I think Melanchthon's line about vestments, in context, is only descriptive. I doubt anyone at the time took it to mean what you're taking it to mean, that the only way to remain a true Lutheran, as the gospel traveled through generations and continents, was to retain the exact same vestments customary at the time. That strikes me as eisegesis, or at least anachronistic, not straightforward interpretation.
Where the rubber meets the road: our church (Immanuel Lutheran, LCMS, Alexandria, VA) is heavily involved in the March for Life in DC every year. We host several events for the March, which I'm not sure we could do if we had the strict fellowship interpretation of the WELS. Because of our proximity to DC, we also are home to a large number of military chaplains and serve their needs. They, naturally, are required to be able to at least pray with any Christian regardless of denomination, within reason.
I don't know if it's standard practice in WELS, but I attended a WELS one Lord's Day when I was late for my own church. It was a small congregation in Yucaipa, California, at the time (many years ago) named Prince of Peace and lately is called Crown of life. At that time the small congregation sang ancient hymns acapella, and they were all exceptional singers. It stands out in my memory as a particularly beautiful experience, almost transcendant. I've not heard anything like it since. My church has gone to guitars and modern hymns that have repetitious choruses. As a musician myself, I kind of find it shallow, but if the young people are happy with it, I don't complain (except to myself). There's also a Reformed congregation a ways away in Redlands that sing only Psalms - but they didn't sound as wonderful as the singing in that little WELS chapel.
My WELS church is pretty classic organ and choir however we are hoping to start a 4 part choir class soon to get the whole congregation singing
I was watching a WELS church online for a little while as I’ve been looking into Lutheranism. They had an organ and choir but switched over to modern music. As a young person I can’t stand the modern songs played with guitar and all that. It makes it feel like a performance rather than worship.
Question coming from a young guy: I will likely go to a LCMS church. I don’t suppose there are any young unmarried women (Gen Z, 18-22 range, around my age) in the Lutheran churches? I would like to find a wife with more traditional views but I hear that by and large the Lutheran congregations are largely made up of the elderly, although I am yet to attend one in person.
@@CaesarGB hello fellow 18-25 lutheran man! It's great to see another young man in the church. I attend a WELS church (thankfully none of that guitar worship song nonsense) as for finding a good woman it's a struggle I know well I am blessed that there are some women my age at my church. However every parent and grandparent would vastly prefer a good Christian man with a solid job to whatever dude there daughter will pick up at a frat party. So I would try to make your quality and interest known to them and see if there is a young peoples Christian group in your city. Also don't be afraid in regular dating to make your desires know early and strongly (children family God exct).
@@wisconsinkraut3445 Thank you! I’m not Lutheran yet but I think it is where I will end up. I was wondering because not only do I desire a relationship with God and a more traditional church with Biblical teaching, but also because I obviously want a wife and family and finding one in the world today is daunting as you know. I thank you for the advice in regards to both church and regular dating. I am looking at going into aviation so I will have a solid job in the not so distant future.
I went out on a “date” the other day and I’m really not sure I’ll go out with her again. I probably should have been clearer with my interests and intentions and that makes me wonder if I should go out with her another time or two just to make sure she has good goals and if she truly finds what I want of interest, but I just get an uneasy feeling regarding some of what I learned about this girl despite her having some Christian background. The crazy thing is that I think her father wants me to get with her over some dude she’d meet at college, I’m just not sure if she’s a quality girl worth wifing up given some of what she has told me about herself. I did tell her that I would likely go Lutheran if I went to church (Which I do intend to do).
@@CaesarGB A much wiser man than me once told me life is a boat you're the captain and your wife is the wind. The wild will scream like a banshee again the sails but as long as you're strong enough to trim the sheets and seer the tiller the wind will calm and be happier for the strong hand. The Bible says that Eve was under Adam that is good, be the strong hand and she will bow. Good luck and God bless.
Hey Jordan, as an ELS member now, I'd like to give some expansion on what you explained regarding the WELS/ELS dissuasion of fellowship with other Christian bodies (which you hit on very well in this video).
The concern stems from the Christian fellowship eventually extending into doctrinal and pulpit fellowship, and I've seen this outside of the Lutheran church. For example, stepping into the realm of the evangelical church as a whole, I have seen traditionally non-charismatic churches eventually begin to adopt charismatic church doctrines and practices to a greater or lesser degree, and that influence of doctrine has at times stemmed from initial Christian fellowship that was not overtly doctrinal in nature (As a sidenote, some of this has also come through the doctrinally weak influx of Christian movies that have infiltrated the silver screen and television). So even if the fellowship is not intended to be doctrinal in nature, there can still be a danger of influence, especially if the congregation is not as doctrinally grounded as it should be.
I have to admit, as a Sunday School teacher, I have to spend time dealing with bad theology in the evangelical church that at times seems to try to worm its way into Lutheranism, and while I would never go so far as to say that evangelicals are not Christians (and, as you rightly observed, neither do the WELS or ELS as a whole), I can say that, as somebody who came out of mainstream American evangelicalism, there are significant points of doctrine and practice that prove to be very detrimental and unbiblical to the Christian walk. It really is the "if you give a mouse a cookie" effect, and while there are good, strong belivers who may be able to handle it, others may not be.
It also does not help that there are people in evangelicalism who are actively looking to revamp traditional churches and move them into the modern non-denominational mold of church, and I can truly say that I have seen people actually go into traditional churches (Lutheran and otherwise) with that specific mindset. And unfortunately some of them do become influential enough to effect change in churches, change that is not good.
Thanks for explaining. I was a LCMS 80's baby. The mini schism over the red hymnal vs the blue hymnal era.
Derp, I only hymnal I know is green, am I heterodox 👀
Dr Cooper did a fine job of explaining the difference between WELS and LCMS. I went to the WELS seminary but I am now a LCMS pastor. I would suggest there is a middle ground where we might be able to come to agreement.
Why didn't you stay with wels? Just so you know my question is out of pure curiosity. After the LCMS's annotated large catechism and the Ryan Turnipseed disaster I don't think I can agree with the LCMS anymore so I was thinking about trying WELS.
@@loganorr6145 it is kind of a long story but the short version is I was in a place that was not good for me or my family and they would not put me on a call list
You have a good head on your shoulders I appreciate the education....
Thank you Dr. Cooper. Your videos have helped me better understand Christian theology, and American Lutheranism. How can I find the podcast you reference early in this video?
I still remember my mom talking about how her basketball coach at a WELS high school said they shouldn’t bow their heads during the pre-game invocation whenever they played LCMS schools.
Which is nuts
insane
I agree with LCMS on church fellowship. But I agree with WELS on church voting.
The St. Louis Seminary is still a problem with the LCMS to this day. The Ft. Wayne Seminary appears to provide better pastors.
Could you please elaborate on the problems? I’m considering St. Louis seminary and would like to learn more.
As a cradle LCMS member, I would love to know more about the AALC and it's doctrine compared to the Mo. Synod I grew up in...
He did it here…. ruclips.net/video/p2X9fn8VxcY/видео.html
God is working through both synods
Through all Churches Synagogues and Mosques we are all children of Abraham.
Allan Stamler no, a mosque doesn’t preach Christ crucified and neither do synagogues. Read Romans 9:6-8
And Galatians 3:6-7
If a WELS church says I can't pray with my LCMS mother or my catholic father then my answer will be GET F...ED! Jesus taught ALL of us the Lord's Prayer and that doesn't need Church fellowship. The differences are elsewhere.
One of my fellow Deacons, who sat in on some of our lcms classes was Lutheran Brotherhood
I like the explanation, but I feel like your recording volume is a bit low.
I am from a Reformed background where we have both Elders and Deacons, each serves a different role. The area where I live does not have any Reformed Churches so my wife and I have been attending a LCMS which we really enjoy. I noticed that there are Elders and no Deacons. I was told that there are some LCMS churches that have Deacons, but they are mostly women. Can you explain why the Lutheran Churches do not have Deacons as an office in every congregation and if true, why are they women only? Thanks, Adam
I have spent time in several different denominations and studied about even more. Currently I'm studying Orthodoxy and also looking at what Lutherans believe. If there's one thing that seems to hold true about conservative, earnest, devout, sincere, serious Christians across the gamut, it's the tendency to argue and split...sometimes over the most trivial matters, and sometimes in the most bitter ad hominem attacks. I KNOW there are important doctrines; I have some myself that I feel are critically important BUT sometimes I think the history of Christianity can unfortunately be summarized in two words: "Church Split." It's like Jesus absolutely commanded us to fight, bicker, and pick with one another.
I spent a decade in Orthodoxy. I really appreciate certain aspects of it. Most of it, to be honest.
Other parts… concerned me.
I’m now LCMS.
I have to say that I looked into Orthodoxy because the WELS church I had been in when my husband decided to enlist in the Army… well… they don’t “do” chaplaincies or anything like that. We had to find a church home that worked with living military life. After ten years being in the military, we’ve settled in a place without a WELS church, and I was getting a cultish vibe from the local
Orthodox Church, so I visited the LCMS church right by my house, and I’m HOOKED.
Strange journey.
But honestly, I still feel that we are all brothers in Christ. And all of the aforementioned view the sacraments as actually BEING Christ’s body and blood. So there’s that. I wouldn’t choose any other way! If a church holds that belief, and is Trinitarian… they’re my brothers.
@@CarolineJoyAmico that is wonderful! I am really glad to hear it, everybody has their own crazy stories!
At the risk of sounding naive, I am wondering if you can speak to which synod would align most closely to Roman Catholicism. I feel a little overwhelmed with all the different kinds of Lutheranism. I am born and raised Roman Catholic, and have found myself questioning and searching.
The other distinction is the role of women in the church. The LCMS allows women to perform readings and serve communion, and serve in leadership roles over men in church councils etc, where the WELS does not.
We don’t allow women to serve communion. We adhere to what it says in the Bible that women are not to hold spiritual authority over men.
@@konig4643 As a synod, correct. I travel frequently for work and if I can't find a WELS church I attend an LCMS church and I've seen, twice, communion served by women.
@@konig4643 Same here. Our church doesn't allow women to serve communion or hold spiritual authority over men and we are LCMS too. I think it depends on the church and their by-laws.
@PK1517 LCMS is congregational in that each congregation is a separate entity, usually a nonprofit corporation. Synod is also a separate entity that owns the name and determines the doctrine of the Synod. This is mostly modern developments since almost all doctrine was settled by the Book of Concord. If you believe that the Bible is the only true authority and that the Book of Concord is the best explanation of it we have, you are a confessional Lutheran For LCMS if a congregation concurs with Synod and hires a LCMS minister in good standing as pastor thay may use the name LCMS. It appears that synod may be lax lately.
@@philiphahn1804 The three LCMS congregations I have attended all allowed women to read Scripture during the service but not to teach what it means, that is the pastor 's job.
I am a WELS Lutheran. I do enjoy listening to your youtube series because on 95 percent of the issues you talk about you are spot on. I obviously disagree on fellowship, role of women in the church and the ministry. The only observation that I can say here is t note that nowhere in this video do you give a scriptural reason for the theological position of levels of fellowship. Remans 16:17-18 says to do NOTHING with people you disagree with. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that prayer is excluded. I have talked to 6 different LCMS pastors and none of them could give me a biblical reason for their position on fellowship. They all just say that it is impolite not to pray with other Christians or that they feel it is extreme. I am open minded and am always willing to listen to other viewpoints and I will change my views if someone can prove me wrong. Can you give me scriptural reasons why levels of fellowship are correct and unit concept is incorrect?
Do you think you could give your opinion on the NALC?
Doctrine of the Church: LC-MS teaches that the word "Church" in Scripture means a local congregation only, whereas the WELS teaches that the larger fellowship is also properly understood as "Church." Therefore, the WELS leadership can and does discipline its pastors and congregations, whereas the LC-MS leadership has little or no power to do so.
Doctrine of the Ministry: LC-MS teaches that the word "ministry" means "Pastors," whereas the WELS teaches that "the ministry" includes not only Pastors, but also teachers in the church's schools.
Women's Suffrage: While neither the LC-MS nor the WELS ordain women as Pastors, the LC-MS permits women to vote in voter's meetings, whereas the WELS does not. Some LC-MS congregations also allow women to be elected to the Church Council, and to hold other positions of authority in the church government.
Doctrine on Fellowship: The WELS teaches clearly that agreement on all the teachings of Scripture is necessary for church fellowship (i.e. taking communion together), whereas the LC-MS does not clearly teach this. On this point, the LC-MS has no clear teaching. For example, if you're a Presbyterian and want to take Communion at a WELS church, they will say "no." If you go to an LC-MS church, it depends on which church you go to. Many LC-MS congregations will allow you to, although some will not.
I think that's pretty much it as far as doctrinal differences. But I think it's fair to say that, generally speaking, the LC-MS has been more influenced by the social gospel and the big-tent inclusivity idea (e.g. an LC-MS congregation will typically accept a member who believes in "theistic evolution"). Sermons that develop a feelings-centred psychological theme loosely based on a Biblical text (as opposed to sermons in which the Bible is explained as truth) are -- sadly -- found in both synods. But this sort of faithless preaching is more widespread in the LC-MS than it is in the WELS.
How he missed this I have no clue. Women's suffrage is huge. I may be leaving LCMS because feminists are voting for awful policies in my church. The pastor has lost control and the women are even on the board now.
@@karlkunze7172
Hi Karl,
Women are "called" and "chosen" for salvation by grace through faith in Jesus. But it is not proper for Christians to call a woman to preach in the Christian Church. We start with the fact that the ministry in the Old Testament was limited to men. It was the *sons* of Aaron who were to serve as High Priests, and the *sons* of the Levites were to serve in the Priesthood (see Ex. 27:21; Num. 3:9).
It's true that the Lord did change some requirements for the priesthood when He came to institute the New Covenant. For example, He allowed qualified men of the gentiles to serve as pastors (see Isaiah 66:20-21; Gal. 2:3). However, the Lord kept the rule that only men should serve Him by preaching in the Church. And so St. Paul instructed the Corinthians that women are not to preach in Church.
Those who want to change God's covenant should read the rebuke that Paul wrote to the Corinthians after that instruction. "Did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord" (1 Corinthians 14:36-37).
Cheers,
Daniel
Dear Daniel: There should be nothing wrong with us wanting to study and share Holy Scriptures. The Word of God did not come originally to us, but it was written for us. Studying God's written Word is how we get to know Christ; it is what inspires us to private and public devotion and worship, all of which is a foretaste of the feast to come in Heaven. A truly Confessional Lutheran Church accepts that, unless there is
division(Not controversy), such as between LCMS and WELS/ELS, men have been, and will continue to be, the majority, for men who are truly called to the qualifications of 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1. Under true Confessional Lutheranism, women generally acknowledge, on their own, that they are not called, without out any man-made rule. With men who endorse less women who are truly called, to the qualifications of 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1,
they are following the examples of Paul in Romans 16. Notice that women who were doing God's calling in
Romans 16, were indeed endorsed by Paul who was also doing God's calling. There are many women
in the Lutheran Church(Especially ELCA women pastors who think they are called to God's ministry), but they are not living or preaching like the women called in Romans 16, and Paul could not endorse most modern women
who think they are called to be ministers. With these truths shared with you, what gives you the right to use the
Western Church Fathers for justification, when Luther forbade the support of these.
@@thebibleandabeer8593 There should be nothing wrong with us wanting to study and share Holy Scriptures. The Word of God did not come originally to us, but it was written for us. Studying God's written Word is how we get to know Christ; it is what inspires us to private and public devotion and worship, all of which is a foretaste of the feast to come in Heaven. A truly Confessional Lutheran Church accepts that, unless there is
division(Not controversy), such as between LCMS and WELS/ELS, men have been, and will continue to be, the majority, for men who are truly called to the qualifications of 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1. Under true Confessional Lutheranism, women generally acknowledge, on their own, that they are not called, without out any man-made rule. With men who endorse less women who are truly called, to the qualifications of 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1,
they are following the examples of Paul in Romans 16. Notice that women who were doing God's calling in
Romans 16, were indeed endorsed by Paul who was also doing God's calling. There are many women
in the Lutheran Church(Especially ELCA women pastors who think they are called to God's ministry), but they are not living or preaching like the women called in Romans 16, and Paul could not endorse most modern women
who think they are called to be ministers. With these truths shared with you, what gives you the right to use the
Western Church Fathers for justification, when Luther forbade the support of these.
I've never thot of LCMS as leading towards socialism. I currently attend ELCA which us hugely social justice minded..and thinking of going to LCMS. Would really like some good counsel
Does the Bible make a distinction between alter and normal fellowship for Christians?
Huh weird. Thanks for the info, pastor!
But i was raised up with both missouri wisconsin synod lutheran churches. So where would i fix in here ? I understand both and everything in all of it. Back to my point where do I fix in here?
Well which stance do you agree with more?
Actually the WELS broke fellowship with the LCMS BEFORE the LCMS declared fellowship with the former ALC. It was partly because the LCMS was carrying on dialogue with the ALC, plus other issues. There was never entire agreement on the doctrine of the church, that is, whether or not the synod itself is "church" in the strictest sense. There were also other issues, but they pre-dated the declaration of pulpit and altar fellowship with the ALC (later, rescinded).
The WELS may be well-inyentioned, but their tough love over tender love proclivity is divisive and leans Pharisitical. The harm this has brought to my family's love of one another - among WELS, LC-MS, & ELCA members - is unbiblical. Lots of judgment at the expense of love.
Shlohm alekhem (peace be upon you) my brother. What are your thoughts on the Lutheran Orthodox Church, and the Anglican Orthodox Church? Shlohm alekhem!
WELS can pray with other Christians as long as it is the WELS pastor who is conducting the prayer.
As a confessional Lutheran in Canada, what options do I have? I am a member of Lutheran Church Canada and unfortunately, my congregation is moving left with the other ones in the city not much better. My congregation is moving left on women lay readers, and women-led bible studies.
It is absurd that if someone doesn't agree with one point such as praying with people who don't agree with 100% of a churches doctrine that they are out of fellowship. So technically, if a WELS member prays with say, a Baptist, she or he could lose their WELS membership?
I have heard of Christianese. Now I've heard Lutheranese. Maybe you could explain these different forms of "fellowship." Are you really meaning theological differences?
I'm not sure I understand your question?
The Christian Church, although it (generally) agrees on the central truths of Christ's death and resurrection, is divided by different understandings of theological nuances. Some Christians are happy to worship with others whom they disagree with. Some Christians (LCMS) will worship with, but will not take the Eucharist with, other Christian bodies. And some Christians (WELS) will even refuse to worship with Christians of other churches, because they want to demonstrate to these other churches the seriousness of their alleged errors.
Kinda a bummer that we're divided this way. But these divisions were created with good intentions, in an (sometimes vain) attempt to preserve the truths of Christ's teachings.
Dr. Cooper , You are correct in saying there's a fine line between prayer with other Christians.....after all, I was raised LCMS, my grandmother was ELCA (raised LCMS herself). I've gotten the impression that ELDONA will not even allow you to pray with family! How is this Christian??? Even though you're so-called praying together, you're not, really. My belief is it is a brief praise to God, in the name of the faith you confess.
How many lutheran divisions,will be enough ?
Why did Peiper in his Christian dogmatics deny the Copernican concept of the cosmos? Was he okay?
Your conclusion is yes, there are differences between LCMS and WELS, but you don't clearly state what those differences are.
As stated in the video, the most significant difference is in views of Christian fellowship. WELS does not distinguish between altar/pulpit and prayer fellowship, while the LCMS and AALC do.
@@DrJordanBCooper women's suffrage?
@@DrJordanBCooper Please explain what do you mean by alter pulpit .
@@chancha807 read Lutheran material.
@@johnnywatson4914 that's vague .
I'm not so bothered by WELS view church relations and fellowship. Their view on The Office seems uniquely "American". It's not unlike the Mormon view on the "priesthood". It's utilitarian to the point of having "pastor of the day"; is it not? Maybe, I'm misunderstanding their position?
Im searching for Lutheran church now. It down to ELCA or LCMS. Both I like.
E. Squatch don’t go to ELCA they aren’t Lutheran. They don’t condemn homosexuality or fornication. They ordain women and homosexuals. They’re pretty degenerate in general. Go LCMS!
@@konig4643 Go WELS unless you want a feminist friendly synod
If you are truly a Christian join the ELCA.
@@richardtiedeman4704 lol if you're truly following the Bible it's any Lutheran Church BUT the elca...lots of elca trolls here don't listen. My question is why elca or lcms.....the true confessional Bible based Lutheran churches are WELS and AALC and LCMS...with small differences. The elca is heretic if not straight out anti christian
@@basedincali8707 true...unless of course you're white and gay or white and female or white and trans....anti straight white cisgender male...all those white folks in there hate their white daddies
The break in fellowship between WELS and LCMS is not complete. My parents in their 90s left a LCMS church and started attending a WELS church closer to their home. After speaking to the pastor they were declared members without the need for adult instruction
I also went from Wels to lcms without any fuss, in 2011.
Dear Mark Horton: The break in fellowship between LCMS and WELS has been complete since 1960. WELS/ELS is just now trying to
acknowledge this division by trying to approach LCMS with a friendly effort toward unity.
@@karlkunze7172 My personal experience is that each accepts the other's members as brothers and sisters in Christ. As I said my parents went from LCMS to WELS with a short chat with the pastor. Fellowship no but they recognize each other as confessional Lutherans. That term seems to exist for just that purpose: recognizing each other as almost the same.
@@markhorton3994 Mark, we can recognize one another as Confessional Lutherans, and still overlook where the break in fellowship
exists. The break in fellowship is caused by written contradictions of Scripture, firstly by the LCMS. The modern mis-interpretation,
of Luther's correct understanding of Biblical exegesis, is the result of Franz Pieper. Franz Pieper altered Luther's correct exposition
of the practice of the Lord's Supper, and Pieper adapted a formula that first began with the Western Church fathers. In Modern times, the Western Church father( See Ignatius, Justin Martyr, and the likes) formula surfaced, in modern times, with the Fundamentalist Baptist(1920's). Franz Pieper sympathized with the formula and began doing what Luther forbade, and that was the quoting of the Western Church fathers. Instead, we are to abide by Scripture, the same way Luther did, and we are safe to quote his understanding
only:
42] Now, it is true, as we have said, that no one should by any means be coerced or compelled, lest we institute a new murdering of souls. Nevertheless, it must be known that such people as deprive themselves of, and withdraw from, the Sacrament so long a time are not to be considered Christians. For Christ has not instituted it to be treated as a show, but has commanded His Christians to eat and drink it, and thereby remember Him.
51] And, indeed, since we act such strangers to it, it is easily seen what sort of Christians we were under the Papacy, namely, that we went from mere compulsion and fear of human commandments, without inclination and love, and never regarded the commandment of Christ. 52] But we neither force nor compel any one; nor need any one do it to serve or please us. But this should induce and constrain you by itself, that He desires it and that it is pleasing to Him. You must not suffer men to coerce you unto faith or any good work. We are doing no more than to say and exhort you as to what you ought to do, not for our sake, but for your own sake. He invites and allures you; if you despise it, you must answer for it yourself.
Article 58 of the Large Catechism has been mis-interpreted and continues to be abused by LCMS/WELS/ELS.
Let's take a look, firstly, at what Luther says: 58] We must, therefore, make a distinction here among men. For those who are wanton and dissolute must be told to stay away; for they are not prepared to receive forgiveness of sin, since they do not desire it and do not wish to be godly. 59] But the others, who are not such callous and wicked people, and desire to be godly, must not absent themselves, even though otherwise they be feeble and full of infirmities, as St. Hilary also has said: If any one have not committed sin for which he can rightly be put out of the congregation and esteemed as no Christian, he ought not stay away from the Sacrament, lest he may deprive himself of life. 60] For no one will make such progress that he will not retain many daily infirmities in flesh and blood
61] Therefore such people must learn that it is the highest art to know that our Sacrament does not depend upon our worthiness. For we are not baptized because we are worthy and holy, nor do we go to confession because we are pure and without sin, but the contrary, because we are poor miserable men, and just because we are unworthy; unless it be some one who desires no grace and absolution nor intends to reform.
So as not to overlook, please also read the book entitled "Practical In-Home Anthology For The Active Christian"
compiled by Ewald M. Plass, with specific attention to article 2520 where Luther says:
" This is also the reason why the Sacrament has been called Communio in Latin, a communion. And those who do not want to be of the same faith, doctrine, and life, as other Christians are, are called excommunicatis, people who are dissimilar in doctrine, words, understanding, and life. Therefore these should not be tolerated in the group that has the same understanding; they would divide it and split it up. The Holy Sacrament, then, serves as a means whereby Christ holds His little flock together."
Mark, here is another emphasis on the correct exposition of Scripture by Luther:
15] Hence it is easy to reply to all manner of questions about which men are troubled at the present time, such as this one: Whether even a wicked priest can minister at, and dispense, the Sacrament, and whatever other questions like this there may be. 16] For here we conclude and say: Even though a knave takes or distributes the Sacrament, he receives the true Sacrament, that is, the true body and blood of Christ, just as truly as he who [receives or] administers it in the most worthy manner. For it is not founded upon the holiness of men, but upon the Word of God. And as no saint upon earth, yea, no angel in heaven, can make bread and wine to be the body and blood of Christ, so also can no one change or alter it, even though it be misused.
17] For the Word by which it became a Sacrament and was instituted does not become false because of the person or his unbelief. For He does not say: If you believe or are worthy, you receive My body and blood, but: Take, eat and drink; this is My body and blood. Likewise: Do this (namely, what I now do, institute, give, and bid you take). 18] That is as much as to say, No matter whether you are worthy or unworthy, you have here His body and blood by virtue of these words which are added to the bread and wine. 19] Only note and remember this well; for upon these words rest all our foundation, protection, and defense against all errors and deception that have ever come or may yet come.
What's the difference between NALC and LCMS, apart from history?
The biggest thing looks like they have a more relaxed idea about altar pulpit fellowship.
Doesn't NALC allow female pastors against biblical command
Women's ordination and what flows from that domino. NALC is like the ELCA in 1988.
Does AALC agree with women’s ordination?
No.
@@DrJordanBCooper glad to hear that, thank you for your response. A very Merry Christmas to you and your family Dr. Cooper.
I wish there was a Texas Lutheran synod that is extremely conservative Spread the word please!
Useful info! Thank you for clarifying. But brother, if I may say so, no offense but it was difficult to hear you; a lot of speed talking and jumbling words closely and mumbling and decrescendoing... :x
Agreed. He has to slow down and better enunciate his words
Does your church body "lean towards closed communion" or actually believe in closed communion? Do you think if I pray with a different faith of Christian that they might assume that I believe as they do? Do you think that matters? Not asking to argue just get your take on these types of questions. Thanks.
I'm LCMS. Are you WELS? Thank you for clarifying that you don't want to argue. I don't either.
One topic the sorta-famous Pr. William Weedon has addressed is this: Why do we practice open absolution but closed communion? Now that I'm catechizing my children, I'm growing in appreciation for the defunct tradition of private absolution as a prerequisite for the Supper.
Anyhow, if public absolution without a retention is okay, the I guess lay Lutherans praying with lay presbyanabapticostals can't be that bad. Either practice can lead to the conceit that everything is ay okay, including false belief and unrepentance. How do you dear estranged brethren address these topics? Thank you for keeping us accountable. We'll continue to try to do the same.
You need to investigate further your facts. WELS Lutherans practice "CLOSE communion" not "closed communion", meaning we are close in doctrinal belief and fellowship, as a close family.
Luther would rail against closed communion as we are all in need of means of Grace. As a Progressive ELCA member I believe in real presence in Communion, but would be denied in the LCMS and WELS for believing exactly as they do.
@@maryhildebrand3399 I understand
@@carleton29 You said that God is at work also in mosques and synagogue, in another comment, adding that "we are all children of Abraham". Any serious church-not only Lutheran-would take this as ground to seriously consider your excommunication, let alone admission to communion!
Lots of interesting comments. It's really hard any more to define a denomination. There so much variety in these synods. Both synods have a lot of contemporary worship, and doctrinal unity is gone. Some WELS DP's are open universalists, as are some of their churches. Some LCMS churches are almost clones of Willowcreek.
So true. I was looking into a local Lutheran Church that claimed they belonged to a branch that supports local chuch autonomy. Seems like a double edged sword to me.
Jesus started a single church, which He considered a reformed version of Judaism. After His death, that sect was called Christian and welcomed gentiles into it. That church split into the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church. The orthodox church soon split into national orthodox Churches (i.e. Russian, Greek, Ukrainian, etc.) Meanwhile the Roman church split, with Luther founding what he considered a reformed Catholic church. After his death, his church began to be called the Lutheran Church. Surprise, surprise, the Lutheran Church split into the Wisconsin Synod, the Missouri Synod, the Evangelical Lutheran Church, etc. Meanwhile, other reformers founded the various other churches, chief among them the Baptist Church (which today has split into dozens of varieties of the original Baptist Church). Then King Henry VIII broke from Rome to form the Anglican Church. So, from a single Christian church, we now have more than 2,500 demoninations, all calling themselves Christian. I don't think this is what Jesus had in mind.
What did He have in mind?
What do you think Jesus thinks of all the different doctrinal divisions and the lack of fellowship of the body?
I know with 100% certainty that he wants us to preach the word, and be ready whether it is convenient or not. To correct, rebuke, and encourage, with all patience and teaching. He predicted long ago that this time would come, when people do not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, because they have itching ears, they accumulate for themselves teachers in line with their own desires. They also turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. He wants us to keep a clear head in every situation and bear hardship.
I'm trying to find a church and it drives me crazy
Same here my friend. Hasn't been easy for me because I'm doing my best to find the most "original"/"correct" denomination out there and I find what I believe is fault in every one. I don't think I'll find one I agree with everything on and have to accept that, but I'll get as close as I can.
@@bar8665 I feel the exact same way
@@bar8665I’ve found it.
@@BibleLovingLutheran what was your conclusion?
@@bar8665 LCMS
WELS pastor: My grandfather was a big-time mason. Did I pray with him at and before his death? Absolutely! Prayed grace. Served at nursing homes and with first-responders as a firefighter. Do I pray with/for them? Still do -every prayer a little sermon on what He has done for us.
Please stop your caricature of WELS as legalists. We pray for YOU too. Principles are to be applied. I do not share my pulpit with other denominations but love and pray for all churches that preach Christ and I pray for them. Lord, lead ALL to your sheep to your sheep-draw. Amen.
It's not a caricature. It's official WELS teaching.
wels.net/faq/praying-with-members-of-other-denominations/
It’s pretty simple.it was explained to me like this.... WELS the only oaths that need be given are to God not man.So any organization that declares you swear an oath to them is frowned upon and is advised against joining. That doesn’t mean WELS Lutherans don’t love or pray for them or ostracize them from fellowship.
Masons are forbidden in traditional Lutheran churches. We must not allow this. And yes we pray for them.
Is it true that AALC is "semi-liturgucal"?
What does that even mean?
@@DrJordanBCoopergo to a search engine, enter "Lutheran comparison chart", there is a pdf. It shows a few denominations and their positions on various things
Wels members do pray with other denominations and unbelievers. Sporting events, graduations, baptisms, visitors, weddings, funerals etc.
For a Roman Catholic considering converting to Lutheran church ; this is so confusing. Where should I go?
Any Confessional Lutheran church is a great place to be. I wouldn't get too hung up on the differences between LCMS, WELS, or AALC.
Orthodoxy
Don't
As Ray was previously a monk in the Roman Catholic Cistercian Order, from our perspective we hope that you have by this time (it's at least a year later from your comment) chosen a Confessional Lutheran Church. The Roman Church is pseudo-Biblical. A Christian needs to be in a Biblical church. There are, of course, differences in the Lutheran synods (denominations). WELS, of which we are members, is probably the most consistent from church-to-church but women not having the right to vote may be a turn-off; although, paradoxically, we see more avenues of ministry for women (called teachers, staff ministers, congregational assistants/evangelists) in WELS than the other Confessional Lutheran Churches. ELS is in fellowship with WELS. We started as Lutherans in LCMS (Missouri) and would also feel comfortable in any conservative LCMS church. We left when our LCMS church changed its practices to Open Communion. You may find a conservative LCMS church more to your liking also because the Pastor functions more as the head of the church (like a priest), versus the more congregational-style of Elders and Church Councils in other denominations. There are also some great Confessional Lutheran RUclipsrs like Dr. Cooper and Pastor Wolfmueller. One caution: we would not consider the largest Lutheran body which is the ELCA. It is rife with un-Biblical teachings and practices on the roles of women and the LGBTQ.
Eastern Orthodoxy. The Catholic Church being false doesn't make the Lutheran position correct.
I think the WELS would do very good by studying Ambrose
Under Alex M comment, there are two who commented to him by the names of @True Aryan. They were asked, by me,
"Are they true believers in Christ or are they true Aryan?" It has to be that you desire Christ. Aryan is secular and is an indication of a selfish projection of ethnic pride, which has nothing to do with the message that God's Word gives to all ethnic groups of the sinful human race.
Lutheranism ,still splitting churches, even within own body, after 500 years. Strengthens the Orthodox,RCC , viewpoint of church... Great explanation of the issues and,truly knocking, but does leave impression of division..
I was about to say, I am a Western Rite Orthodox convert from the LCMS. I just couldn't justify the shattering of Christendom by Lutheranism. It's a million subgroups, and no clear signs of The Church Christ promised. Not to mention Lutheranism does not take Eastern Christendom into account. (Im aware of sheep stealing in Ukraine)
Old Catholic, Polish National Catholic, Anglo-Catholic. Such unity! Eastern (Chalcedonian) Orthodox, Oriental (anti-Chalcedonian) Orthodox, Church of the East (anti-Ephesian) Othodox. Oh yeah, the Greek Orthodox and Russian Orthodox have been in schism since 2018. Oh, the unity!
I've been to both. The thing I think wels needs to be cognizant of is hypocrisy. For instance, the school admitting another synod student, but not allowing child to play in their band during a worship service, then realizing they need a pianist, make an exception. I mean we could all fall into hypocrisy and many Christians are accused of that , but we must guard ourselves.
I had a hard time with wels not allowing women to vote on anything except what brand of coffee to use. Women work outside the home, have careers, are educated, bring their tithes and offerings like any man, and yet has no vote on the budget. I think men should lead the church as elders and make doctrinal decisions that belong in that group. But budget, ministry, can include women. Some men are barely involved in church life at all, but get to vote because of their gender seems wrong.
As a WELS voting member it is my job/role to speak with my wife and take her opinions into consideration. Also, I would discuss with widowed or single women too. Just because the women don’t vote doesn’t mean or shouldn’t mean they don’t have a say! May God bless and keep you.
I am a WELS member and depending on which WELS church you are at they may have a different form of church "government". Some do simple systems with just the men voting on everything in a "voters assembly" but I have heard of some that moved to a commitee format so women could better use their gifts to serve. This is benefitial because if a woman is particularly good at budgeting, or outreach ministry, she can assist the church in that way without taking on what is seen in our eyes as a leadership role.
I was always taught that the "voters assembly" isn't commanded in the bible. It is simply the way we have chosen to organize our church and there are other ways to organize a church body. We just chose this way because its what we're all used to.
I am born and raised in Minnesota!! Have you watched "Lutheran Airlines" on RUclips?? You must! Enjoy your channel!
It's was sure funny. Thanks!
Interesting discussion and I enjoy your videos... the only point I would make is, instead of the use of the term "strict" when describing the WELS vs LCMS views on fellowship, a much more appropriate term would be "Biblical." If Scripture is Sole, Source and Norm, then Scripture Alone should be the determining factor in the difference, not a strict or less strict adherence to the Word of God. I hope that helps.
They haven’t been in fellowship for over 65 years. LCMS and WELS. WELS is closer to Lutheranism. Your best is ELDONA Lutheran churches as far as Luther Lutheran Biblical scripture. Solas!
I will love when you guys put CC, please!
I did allow for community contributions for subtitles on this video.
nah
“Drifting” = growing up
So the WELS would not fellowship with Jesus..
Why does a question this obscure even matter?
Lutherans are dweebs massively concerned with circular logic. They really think if they nerd out on believing in myths that they'll get to heaven and avoid hell.
The video is suppose to be about LCMS & WELS, so what is this ALC the narrator mentions a few times but never explains or even identifies what it is? Use of initials by American Lutherans to identify different Lutheran groups or “denominations “ is overwrought and confusing!
Here is a good progress report on the understanding that LCMS has come too about women deacons:
ruclips.net/video/7DJcxqXumYE/видео.html
So, lets say I go to a funeral of a distant family member in a Church other than WELS. You mean to tell me I am forbidden to pray with the people of the other congregation for the family of the deceased. If this really is truth, I completely disagree with WELS. And for another matter in any type of a mission field where there may be few Christians, I guarantee you I will pray with non-believers so they can learn about our Savior in prayer. For clarity, I am a WELS member living in an Asian country.
In my city there’s only one Lutheran church.
This report was approved by the following meeting attendees on December 2, 2015 in Jacksonville, FL:
ELS: LCMS: WELS:
John Moldstad Gerhard Bode John Brenner
Glenn Obenberger Albert Collver James Huebner
Gaylin Schmeling Charles Gieschen Thomas Nass
Matthew Harrison Mark Schroeder
Joel Lehenbauer Earle Treptow
Herbert Mueller Joel Voss
Lawrence Rast Paul Wendland Jon Vieker
His view on WELS is just incorrect...
I didn't know there was a Wisconsin synod. They probably serve cheese at communion I bet !
The whole thing of not praying with another Christian just because doesn’t attend my denomination is kind of arrogant to me. Whom am I to not pray with another person whom God calls His son ???? This is just childish , divisive, arrogant, skirmish , schematic, one dimensional, immature and counterintuitive to Jesus vision for church unity.
You can pray with any Christian. We are all siblings in Christ
GROOMING AND ATTIRE MORALITY ANSWER FROM SCRIPTURE
(Part 2, "Attire")
The Old Testament mitre(Exodus 39: 28-31) was a twisted band of fine linen, 8 yards in length, coiled into the form of a cap or a turban of the high priest. The crown did not go all the way around the head and
cover the top like a traditional crown. Instead, the crown of the high priest was a small metal plate that was fastened on the turban, above the priest's forehead, by two blue straps that extended around the head
and tied in the back. Without the described crown, the turban alone is also rendered "Bonnet" in the King James Version. The crown, tied on the turban to show above the forehead was an indicator of the high priest who was set apart to bear the guilt of the people's transgressions, but because high priests, like Aaron, were also sinful,
Christ became the only true High Priest who did not sin, which ended the Old testament system of high priests. The Lord, who established a new system, is the glorious crown and royal diadem(Isaiah 62: 3) for His people. "Crown" is used figuratively to mean Christian triumph
(2 Timothy 4: 8/Revelation 2: 10), while diadem symbolizes Christ as the All powerful ruler, who has many diadems
(Greek word 1238-Revelation 19: 12), while Satan is said to have seven diadems(Revelation 12: 3), with the beast(Revelation 13: 1) having ten
diadems.
Mitres, in the form of the turban and fastening of a gold crown, and showing the words "Holy To The Lord" on it's frontal, became obsolete in the early Church, they no longer being mentioned at all in the New Testament. Crown is mentioned figuratively, in the New Testament, as referring to the likeness of the award that Christ will give to believers who He caused to triumph to their end here on Earth, when they enter Heaven. To this end, a "Cap" called "Camelaucum" was worn by priests of the early Christian Church, made of cloth, but not of metal
or decorated with precious jewels. The cap was worn by priests in the West and East, and was closest to the Old Testament description of a turban without a metal crown. Regardless, by the eighth century, in the Roman West, the cap developed into a metal tiara. Tiara originates from the Persian name for crown; the name later meant queen diadems, but first denoted high-peaked crowns of Persian Kings. By 1300 A.D. the papal tiara became two crowns in one, and finally three crowns in one by 1314. Today, the tiara, both the original metal-jeweled circlet, and the papal three circlet tiara are also called diadems(A ruling crown).
The same kind of development occured, after 1453, by the Eastern Orthodox, when the bishop's cap took the form of the imperial crown of the late Eastern Roman Empire.
Even so, the Orthodox bishop's mitre is referred too as such, not because it's based on the Eastern Roman imperial crown, but because it is constructed by fabric, which is what made up a turban(Mitre);
the difference here is that the Orthodox mitre includes jewels specifically for decoration, but not always. The papal three-tiered
(Triregnum) tiara, constructed of precious metal and decked with jewels,
was not a mitre; it was a crown(Diadem), and not the Old Testament forefront metal piece diadem tied to turbans(Mitres). The last time the triregnum was placed on the pope was in 1963, when it was perceived that there was a need for simplification of the papal rites. A tall
folding-cap replacement, consisting of front and back parts rising to a peak, was constructed of white linen or silk cloth. Regardless of height(Probably intended to keep the height of the triregnum), and newly developed style, cloth defined this as a mitre. The type of mitre called "Precious" is decorated with precious stones and gold, but very rarely. By now, anyone, without denial can see, these A.D. later constructions of mitres and crowns, not only are un-called-for, but they
developed based on something preferred without Biblical mandate; moreover, they are not constructed by Old Testament design, when the high priests were required to wear them. Each new pope still receives a newly made triregnum, even though it is no longer worn by them.
The New Testament does not have any references describing priestly vestments worn by Jesus nor His disciples(Apostles). Jesus and His apostles wore the ordinary clothes common to Palestine before and into the first century A.D. - A mantle was usually worn on top of the tunic, and it would hang down just below the knees(Mark 6: 9). The King James Version, in Matthew 3: 11, and Mark 6: 9, uses the general term "Shoes," which is translated as "Sandals" in reference to the footwear
type used in Jesus time. John 19: 23 describes Jesus garments and coat. The very rich wore long tunics that reached down to the ankles
(Mark 12: 38/Luke 20: 46). John the Baptist wore the camel's hair
garment(Matthew 3: 11). Christianity, in it's first few years of existence, were content to officiate in the dress of civic life, though their garments were expected to be scrupulously clean and of decent quality. The liturgical vestments are not, as one time commonly supposed, borrowed from the sacerdotal ornaments of Jewish ritual, but
they were an independent development using patterns of the various articles of everyday dress worn by citizens of the Graeco-Roman world under the Empire. Conversely, obvious comparisons(Analogies) of the Jewish ritual dress, to a certain extent, determined their sacral character.
It is not until the period between the ninth and thirteenth centuries
that the final development, of Western and Eastern liturgical vestments
occured. Subsequently, it was a crown(Tiara/diadem) that surfaced in the West. Later, in the East, a mitre, modeled after the Eastern Roman imperial crown, developed in it's final pattern. Luther and his followers regarded vestments as action that morality neither mandates nor forbids(Adiaphora).
That is easy LCMS are more of the catholic flavor compared to other Lutherans.
"more confessional professors"
Clear as mud lol
The world of the Pharisees. WWJS?
It seems WELS better preserved traditional Lutheran fellowship doctrine.
Confused. Exceptionalist.
The Bible is God's inerrant Word. When in doubt, consult and study God's Word. Humans tend to stray off course, and the road is narrow. God does not change. God is the Creator. God made the rules. Study God's Word.
@@tntrailrider7379 Matthew 7:7 New International Version
“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
1 Thessalonians 5:16-18
King James Version
16 Rejoice evermore.
17 Pray without ceasing.
18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
Each person's relationship with God is personal. God wants it that way.
Unless otherwise revealed specifically, like in this youtube reference - ruclips.net/video/Gh979HGB9hI/видео.html, when a racist
act occurred, racists in WELS congregations are conspicuous, and pastors are obtuse.
Elca is easy to spot. The pastor will be a woman with blue hair and a gay pride flag close by.
Without picking sides, thumbs down for your money making video.
Sounds like why Jesus did in His day!
So you are a Doctor?
Share, doctor of what?
I hope all Lutheran church in the world make one deal something like all practice and tradition at church, and especially not to ordain woman and LGBTQ according to Bible.
The WELS seems to have gone in a big way for gender-neutral (i.e. feminist) English. WELS uses a gender-neutral hymn book, and a gender-neutral "Bible". The whole idea of gender-neutral language (invented by radical American feminists in the early 1970s) was to abolish the generic masculine in the English, calling it "sexist", "offensive to women", "exclusive", etc. Even though the generic masculine is used in the Biblical languages of Hebrew ("adam") and Greek ("anthropos"), the WELS, and to a lesser extent the LC-MS have endorsed the idea of using "non-sexist" English. To say that the use of the generic masculine is "sexist", "offensive", etc. is to, call the Holy Spirit "sexist", "offensive", etc., because the Holy Spirit inspired the generic masculine in the Biblical languages. If one examines the statements put out by the LC-MS "faculty majority" in the years immediately prior to the 1974 walkout, one will see that those statements studiously avoid using the generic words "man", "mankind", etc. One of the first published documents to use "gender-neutral" (also called "gender-specific") language is the Humanist Manifesto II, published in 1973. It is interesting how radical liberal ideas can so easily penetrate ostensibly conservative Christian organizations.
LOL Just pretend the ELCA doesn't exist. Typical.
LCMS also allows woman to vote and hold positions which usurp authority over men. Both of which are unscriptural
I can’t listen to this. The good news of the Bible is Jesus took on our sin, and because of this, we are saved. Our sins are forgiven, repent , believe, and live the best life you can. See you on the other side.
Amen dear one!+
TO my knowledge there is not a single WELS parish that practices orthodox, Biblical Holy Communion (vis a vis 'closed' communion) but there ARE many parishes in the LCMS that do practice a Communion where the pastor doesn't have to either judge or read another professing believer's heart/soul. Those LCMS parishes that have dumped the legalistic closed communion are the ones still growing. My parish added 700 new members in the past three years and that INCLUDES 2020 COVID-19 nightmares. Nothing drives seekers and believers alike away from a church or even denomination that legalism....closed communion and "church discipline" as practiced under the warped doctrine of the Office of the Keys are the two leading issues that unnecessarily divide us from another. With over 1,100 Christian denominations now in the U.S. alone, it would seem that the Germanic origins of Lutheranism are inherently divisive and even hurtful. When a denomination, synod, pastor or layperson separates Christian families from another, or prevent them from FULLY worshipping together, bad things can happen. And the backdoor losses mount for LCMS and WELS alike and the front door entrance traffic is slowing to a trickle so perhaps one day someone in the warring leaderships of these two once-important synods will wake up and join us in the 21st century without a single iota of compromising the Gospel message. The adiaphora should never divide Christians but should only be for lively debate and discussion until we reach Heaven and ALL of the answers are revealed. Until then, STOP IT. Stop it, please you ivory tower theologians who screw up the worship and relationships of the average believer. Do you infighting and angry debates out of the sight and earshot of those who just wish to know Jesus, The Christ as our Rock and our Redeemer. Thank you.
Can two walk together except they be agreed? The churches of today, whether they are lutheran, baptist,reform, or even catholic bear no resemblance to those of 60 years ago. They are are in various stages of apostasy and have been overtaken with the culture and idolatry of society.
This video was made with zero effort. BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
What a rediculous waste of human intellect. He might as well be talking about wrestling or which actor is the one true spiderman. How can anyone not see that all religions are just man made stories? way way back in the day it made sense to attribute some explanations to natural phenomena that couldn't otherwise be explained (love, disease, sunsets, stars, thunder, emotions) but to be convinced of those explainations now is really really silly. Even sillier is to argue whose antiquated story is the "right" one. Being convinced your religion is truth and the rest of the world has it wrong...I mean...when are we going to grow past this as a species? There are just basic things we should all do to help each other. Work towards that goal and we'll all be a little happier. No need to bring candles and magic into it. Do what makes you happy and help others to be happy where you can. When two rules are in opposition we'll discuss it.
_”There are just basic things we should all do to help each other. Work towards that goal and we'll all be a little happier.”_
Or don’t work towards that goal and talk about wrestling or which actor is the one true spiderman. It doesn’t matter. If you do basic things to help, you will be deleted. The people you help will be deleted. If you talk about wresting and spiderman, you will be deleted. The people you didn’t help will be deleted. Both amount to oblivion. The existence of all life in the universe is a mere blip. Not even a blip. The blip will be deleted.
_Do what makes you happy and help others to be happy where you can._
Candles and magic make him happy. Replying to RUclips comments makes me happy. Maybe it makes you happy, too. It doesn’t matter. Being convinced your happy comments are truth and the rest of the world has it wrong...I mean...we aren’t going to grow past this as a species. We are going to be deleted. It doesn’t matter. Spend your blip how you wish. Let him spend his blip however he wishes. Or don’t. It doesn’t matter. We do not matter. You do not matter.
Is that you, Satan?