@Bjørn: Big compliment, very professional interview! Great stage setup, using 2nd camera on Edgeir, sound, inserts, cuts... Perfect! And of course super interesting... Didn't know Tibber also triggers consumption for frequency balancing purposes.
Thank you on our behalf as well. You can read more on it at Forbes www.forbes.com/sites/emanuelabarbiroglio/2020/08/28/a-swedish-energy-startup-wants-to-make-electricity-consumption-smarter/ Also, more information on our Magazine too: tibber.com/en/magazine/inside-tibber/the-perfect-storm-energy-market
In the U.K., some new power companies are offering similar services. I’m trialing a domestic electricity tariff which follows the wholesale electricity price. We only charge our EV when we have excess solar PV or when the price of grid electricity is low (at night). We would like to use our EV battery to power our home, but V2G is not available here, even though our Leaf supports bidirectional charging. The alternative is to install a Powerwall 2 or similar, but the economics are questionable.
This seems to be very much like what Octopus Agile tariff is capable of when linked to a smart charger. It's popular in the UK with EV owners as occasionally you will be paid to consume electricity (negative pricing) as there is an excess of Renewables available.
@@abraxastulammo9940 There's no need for a tax, because you have to pay it back for electricity the next day. Likewise if you want to tax solar power, you need to allow deductions for buying the equipment.
@@abraxastulammo9940 it is not, it is worth very little and appears as money off your electricity bill, it provides stability for the grid, using power that would otherwise be wasted or cause a peaker plant to be switched off and on. Tesla is doing this with their grid scale batteries and autobidder software.
Windmills are normally stopped when there is too much sun (PV) and Wind in DE. I would like to see more storage for that produced electricity (and even if it‘s producing H2 with losses or charging cars or stabilizing mega batterie packs, than to just stop them ( moving them out of the wind). I just read in the weekends newspaper that legacy coal powered Power plants have increased their amount of the whole energy production in the 1st quarter of this year in DE due to low a wind. What a pity. Many thanks to Björn and Edgeir!!!
The answers to the energy situation is most importantly, reduce use, as in increase efficiency, and stop unnecessary use. Then there's DSM, Demand Side Management, when to take that power from the grid, just managing when to take power from the grid doesn't need to have any significant drawbacks, or costs, but has huge potential. That's what's brilliant. Specific energy storage should be last resort, and primarily done to fill actual need for energy when there's no better way to do that, not to "make use of excess energy". It's great to "find" use for excess energy, as with DSM, like Tibber does. But to "create" use for excess energy with specific investments in energy storage is not the big picture solution for grid management. What most people seem to fail to realize is that the issue is filling a need, with as little cost and negative consequences as possible, not making use of all the electric power generated at any cost.
I was on a similar trial in U.K. also when using solar and a “myenergi zappi” charger it will start and stop as the solar production reaches the minimum charge rate of the EV (1.4KW). We also get cheaper rate at night (3 times cheaper than daytime) on an EV tariff. Clearly some large differences there between U.K. and Europe (khhh Brexit)
Yes Ediger is right that is not cost effective to use the car battery to storage grid energy. The battery is selected to be ideal for EV's meaning have the highest energy density possible to get the best range and be just good enough to last for the warranty period typical 8 to 10 years about 160000km and that is just around 400 to 500 cycles the battery needs to handle (400 cycles x 400km = 1600000km). LiFePO4 has lower energy density but also a much larger cycle life over 5x higher than NMC typical used in EV's. Still even LiFePO4 when used in EV's are typically optimized for energy density so they will still not be as good as those used for house energy storage. And then even with LiFePO4 used specifically for energy storage it barely makes sense at current cost and is mostly good for large scale energy storage still not cost effective for individual homes. Things may improve in battery cost and cycle life that grid connected EV's will make economic sense but not right now.
I'm keeping an eye on CATL, who have said they will start making sodium based batteries. They have mentioned an energy density of 120 Wh/kg. And if they can scale those, they should become cheaper than lithium batteries, depending on the required cathode materials.
@@GoofyChristoffer LiFePO4 is already as good as it gets in therms of cycle life and more than that will not be helpful. For example my A123 System LiFePO4 has a cycle life of 5400 cycles at 100% DOD and with small 5% or so DOD they can handle half a million cycles so almost like super capacitors. The main degradation for my battery that I use to fully power my offgrid house is not due to cycle life but due to calendar aging degradation. In 3 years of full time use I lost a bit more 4% of the original capacity and I use fairly heavy the battery as is just a 4.5kWh and I use around 120kWh/month not counting the heating that is also fully electric but that uses thermal storage. Here is a link for the battery degradation test if interested in more details. groups.google.com/g/electrodacus/c/nKWp_6tjMNM/m/1f66fW6-BwAJ
In the US we have FERC regulation 2222 that will allow aggregators to offer grid services when it comes into force in a year or two. V1G (scheduled charging) can be practiced now and V2G would be even more helpful if EV makers allow it. There are aggregators now like Ohm Connect and Nuvve who are looking to provide these really useful grid services and reward customers that participate. Our town can text cystomers when peak loads are about to happen but it is purely voluntary. It would be better to get paid. Making it automatic is key
Completely agree that grid balancing and cost savings can be done without V2G. But... I still want and need a solution to power my house during blackouts which happen just a few times a year and V2G would be amazing then and that would be so seldom Im not concerned about wearing out the battery.
~ 8:00 cost loss may apply to Norway, where PV doesn't make as much sense, but cost loss can be over-compensated in countries, where you have your own PV. From PV, the kWh is priced way below 10¢/kWh, while German grid Electricity incl taxes etc typically costs almost 31¢. Also it applies way less in countries, where you can draw electricity based on electricity stock exchange prices, where prices can even go negative, thus lowering customer prices (which still stay positive, at least in Germany because of all thise taxes and fees) by more than 10¢/kWh. Always have a look at the bigger picture, not just one country. Still, I'm opting for ~12kWh home storage (~15 kWp PV) as my house will be heated by heat pump and the home battry storage is incentivized. And would simply like to have the car as an extra storage, just in case. And for stuff like camping of course :-) Edit: now that I'm at 18:02, tibber offers flexible prices aswell (and sometimes even negative?), so ... Edit 2 - 19:04 - no, end customers don't get paid for using electricity, because tax&fees are around 23¢/kWh, while grid electricity prices only go down to almost -10¢/kWh. But industry customers can indeed draw power for negative prices during those time slots. Edit 3 - some hours later - erm, the thumbnail says "V2G", but I'm thinking V2H all the time ... for V2G, indeed many parameters (taxes, fees) would have to be changed, so EV owners could indeed earn some money this way or at least stay even. VW for example is one of the real big players and they want to change this game through their subsidiary "Elli", which is an electricity supplier, and not only for EVs. But I fear they're going to change the game in a way that they (and similar bigger companies) will make the profit and customers only get a minimal share :-/
@@abraxastulammo9940 taxes are high indeed, way too high (for end customers at least, while for the industry, they're lower in Germany than almost anywhere in Europe). But if you have an EV that you charge at home, you can make use of aWATTar (and there's another new energy supplier that Robin TV advertises for IIRC), who offer electricity stock exchange based hourly prices. And hopefully, the (next) government will scrap at least the EEG fee soon. I'm not going to do any hopping, I stay with the most eco centric and anti monoploist suppliers I know, EWS. A similar alternative is Bürgerwerke. Both are self organized by their members/sustomers and invest as much into EE and alternative energy distribution concepts as possible.
I think that there is cars with V2G integrated in it almost 10 years ago. BYD E6 is one from it. I am not sure is there any information available about compatibility to local grid requirements. As I heard BYD buses fleets too are realizing V2G feature in larger scale.... I'm too using switched charging, depending from my PV production power to use 100% PV energy to charge my EV.
Very good interview. However I need to correct Edgeir a bit. You can control wind turbines. They have brakes to stop them from rotating. They are for instance stopped if it gets to windy. I suspect they also are stopped on other terms to because I have 3 of them in my western view and 11 in my eastern view. Very seldom do I see all of them spinning at the same time. As a small digression : Beyonder is building their battery factory near the 3 turbines
V2G is not that difficult to implement and also not problematic in terms of cell chemistry. However, two very different paths are conceivable, on the one hand frequency stabilization through short-term infeeds and withdrawals and on the other hand the V2H applications to support the house. The former can help the local network operator to better regulate his local network and the latter is not particularly appreciated by any external provider because it means that less energy can be sold and of course there is no local network load at all. And of course this runs counter to the business model of all those providers who have already positioned themselves in the energy market and are now concerned about their assets. A distinction should always be made here, however, that the owners (and operators) of the local / supraregional / national energy networks are each different companies and these in turn differ from the companies that sell the electrical energy, at least in Germany. With regard to the aging of the batteries and the on-board chargers, the situation is as follows: If you want to make the batteries as healthy as possible, you should only use short strokes for frequently changing discharges / charges in the SoC range between 60 and 40% exploit, which in the best temperature window of the performance may be up to 1C. For use in a domestic context, larger strokes of the SoC are also possible, but significantly lower power should be withdrawn / fed back. Here, too, it is important to ensure operation in the optimized temperature window. In principle, it is also possible to design the on-board charger to be bidirectional. However, several chokes and filter stages have to be installed in order not to impose any harmonics on the network. Since these additional components require installation space and generate additional weight, such an implementation cannot be designed for very high outputs, so frequency stabilization and control power cannot be done well with it, unless you can control a vehicle fleet in this way. Ultimately, however, large fleet associations such as bus depots and garbage trucks and logistics locations will come into question for V2G anyway, because they also have sufficient capacity at the power connection. The main obstacles are the reservations of all those players who are currently still earning money with the services and who have to forego their high margins through such flexibility. Without a doubt, arbitrage models equalize the development of electricity prices over the course of the day. Of course, this does not play into the cards of the energy traders and could even jeopardize their business model. Therefore, there are great reservations about V2G. Ultimately, however, it will be necessary to enable the switch to renewable electricity generation, as the volatility of generation can be evened out.
An EV with good thermal management being charged/discharged between 30% and 70% at around 7-11kW suffers very little wear. Extend that down to 10% or up to 90% and there will be some wear worth considering.
Not so much the battery, but What about the lifespan of the onboard charger, its not healty to switch it on and off many, cycles more than it need too..
@@Pervypriest possibly. It's also not desirable the battery heater is involved each time. Could be extremely inefficient to spend 3kWh to warm a battery so that it can charge and discharge 7kWh, for example
I think you may be overanalyzing the problem. Its not like charging would go on and off very often. Prices only change every full hour. The trend I see from doing what tibber does manually ( excluding frequency balancing) is that the car can usually charge all I need in a single "low-cost" window so I really would not be too concerned with an occational extra on-off cycle.
Hi Thomas, happy you got excited about Tibber. You can find more info on our site: tibber.com/no - also a lot insights on smart charging and future of energy on our online Tibber Magazine tibber.com/no/magazine
Ontario Hydro (Ontario's main electric utility) had a program which reduced air conditioning, water heating and swimming pool pump to reduce stress on the grid during high energy demand. It was ended December 2017.😭
The Ontario load reduction program became redundant because of CFL and then LED bulbs + daytime power from rooftop solar PV. The peak summer grid load ever, was about 15 years ago.
Hold your horses guys... As an end customer you do not get any money back from your energy supplier. You not even have the chance to optimize the kWh cost as most contracts run for 12 months with a fixed kWh price for 24x7x365. So, no variation at all. In Germany the electricity companies get the benefits of variable prices but not the consumer. But interesting technology. I am sure we will see some new use cases for our car batteries.
Thank you for your feedback. Actually, you would be paid if you use electricity during the times when there are negative prices in case you would have a spot price contrac. In Germany, we provide this same opportunity for everyone with a smart meter - so essentially as a Tibber customer, you would be the one benefiting from negative prices.
@@tymanot Thank you for the compliment - and hope we can live up to your expectations. Let us know if you have any questions, we'll be happy to respond to all of them. Sharing few articles from our Magazine on the topic: Flexible Strompreise - Risikofaktor oder Innovation mit Sparpotential? tibber.com/de/magazine/power-hacks/flexible-strompreise Negative Strompreise und warum garantierte kWh-Preise nur auf den ersten Blick Sinn ergeben tibber.com/de/magazine/power-hacks/negative-strompreise
It would interesting to know if DC is the future. Having keep changing AC to DC don’t make sense. I’ve got Solar and need inverter to use it. So when charging my car the solar DC is inverted to AC and the.my car has to change is back again to DC. Most modern devices could work on DC and anything else might cost to update, but savings from inverting would be worth it.
There a significant challenge with high voltage DC: electric arcs. AC goes to 0 volts 100-120 times per second, which allows the ionization of the air to dissipate, and helps to stop the arcing. And this happens every time you try to open a circuit with a switch or contactor.
I do not need tibber to charge my car or stop it when tibber tells me it expensive now. You can simply use smart walboxes e.g. openWB which can (if you want it) to load your vehicle simply out of your PV or house batterie. Right now I only see users with no PV to charge their EV according to tibbers recommendations
Removing company profit incentives for consumption, excellent. However you don't want to remove/minimse the cost message to the consumer. Many people behave in really stupid ways when provided with something for free, or at trivial additional cost
Thank you - we are happy to hear that you agree that electricity without profit is the way for the future. Good point also about human behaviour. This does not apply for Tibber customers as they tend to be smart - AND they still pay the market price for the electricity they consume.
Vehicle to Home is much more important for me and other Texans. V2G is for the utility companies benefit not the consumers in most cases I have seen. If they want V2G, the utility needs to pay half the cost for my EV supplying them electricity to even the grid out. Your never going to make enough money as a consumer selling V2G energy back to grid to offset the degradation on the EV battery pack your going to get. V2H much more important and having small to medium sized battery for home like Tesla Powerwall or others is easier for grid leveling.
V2G or V2H should be done DC. There is no point for the vehicle to carry all this AC/DC/AC conversion equipment. Fun Fact: All EVs with fast charging are technically ready for DC V2G, all what is needed is to amend the CCS protocol to make the vehicle close the DC contactors when ask to supply electricity. Edit: Volkswagen has proposed V2G in DC already.
One of the main reasons I placed a pre-order for the F-150 Lightning with V2H capability is that I want to do my own load balancing. We live in rural Georgia, and our solar net metering pays out at bulk rate $0.029/kWh every day at midnight. I want to bank my excess production on sunny days and power my house with V2H on cloudy days. This won't be cost effective on its own, but I detest the net metering terms so much that I'm doing it as a bit of revenge against the electric provider. Not to mention I'll have a full size electric pickup to enjoy as an added bonus, as well as to make more use of my significantly oversized solar installation. There's a feature here which allows the power company to control your air conditioner for a certain amount of time a day for load balancing, and they give you a discount on your bill to have that privilege. This seems to be the same concept your guest is talking about, only with higher amperage applications.
Really interresting interview, but what bothers me the most, is the burning lightbulb(LED?) on the balcony/porch, i think it is on 24/7, if it is not on 24/7 okay, but looks it is on always. Turn of those energy users, if they are not neccessary, or put them on a timeswitch ! Have a great day, and stay safe !
In Norway, 99% of the electricity comes from water/hydro plant. Also, sunlight contains way less energy there. I think solar panels make no sense there.
IONIQ 5 already has V2L. Certainly powering your home from your EV makes only sense when you have your own PV. And also the cars battery can be used to stabilize the grid. Why are there already companies who sell you a Akkumulator for your PV to also be used in the grid to stabilize. E.g. Sonnen.de sells batteries for your home. Why not using a cars battery for this in future when V2G communication is documented and certified. And yes I don‘t want to completely discharge my car. But given the fact that cars batteries are much bigger than your normal house batteries, I think that is a great idea.
Does Tibber have a plan for how they will bid in the frequency market? Will the flexibility option of smart chargers be executed often due to low bidding by Tibber? Or will it only be triggered rarely due to other players bidding lower?
That is a very complex question which depends on many factors. We are not only looking at the primary frequency markets but also other markets including local flexibility. Essentially we will be placing our flexibility where the most value is for Tibber and our customers and that will be highly dynamic.
There are still losses converting from one voltage of DC to another. And DC is in some ways better than AC, but has other challenges that are not necessarily easily overcome.
This interview should have been done in Norwegian because most things only apply to Norway. V2G is pointless in in Norway where power is almost 100% from hydropower available 24/7/365 , it's dark all winter so not ideal for solar, it has very low population density and people have such disposable incomes that their power bill is insignificant relative to their income. I'm not sure that even the proposed smart charging makes any sense or difference at all. In other countries, we need to develop V2G asap to ensure that we can maximise renewable and a carbon neutral energy mix, otherwise our EV's will be powered by gas or coal powerplants, which is pointless. The paradox of Norway? Number 1 in EV adoption and number 5 in the world in oil production per capita. Oil exports are paying for your EV's, so Norwegians are net mega-polluters. Norway, If you care for the environment, STOP PRODUCING OIL! Also, stop using timber for heating, use green electricity! 1 Million tons of wood being burned in Norway for heating each year. 1 MILLION TONS! Next time, make a business out of solving those problems of Norway instead of lecturing the rest of the world on V2G.
I don't care about V2G but V2H is extremely important! For me it's not economically sound to have an EV if it can't be used as a V2H battery in combination with my solar power system.
EVs and their batteries work just fine with this (LiFePO4 being most suitable). For this use manufacturer's will most likely limit the charge level between 20%-80%, or something like that. VW already has this tech in the field with their 22kW bidirectional charger.
Also in cold climate that 10% conversion loss (closer to 7% if the source is DC from a solar power system) is often not waste. It provides needed heating to the garage.
@@tkermi Yes, but it mostly heats the garage in summer when we get 400 KWh per week and 4 AM sunrise. Not so much around Christmas when we get 17 KWh per week and 4 PM sunset.
@@RandyTWester True, but for me typically only less than 2 summer months (~8 weeks) are so warm that heating my garage isn't beneficial. For example now the night temperature drops to 9°C (48°F) and my garage isn't as well insulated as the rest of my house (the big door isn't even available with excellent insulation - at least not at reasonable price). My big water accumulator and a lot of piping is in the room beside the garage so keeping the garage warm also helps to limit the heat loss from that.
GREAT interview. I have had Tibber for a 7-8 months now. Love it. Question (for followup interview); First off there is probably huge money for Tibber to be made by frequency balancing the net with their customer base. However, this is all good business for them, but considering it will affect the end user by stopping charging when the prices at at their lowest, how will they compensate the end user for this? As the best interest for the customer is obviously to charge when the prices are at their lowest, vs stopping charging for x-min when it's at the lowest.
Thank you, we are glad you liked it and always delighted to e-meet a happy customer. Right now, for customers that are eligible for participating for grid balancing, ie. they charge with a connected wallbox, we provide a guaranteed discount on electricity used for smart charging 50% in Sweden, and 20% in Norway (compared to your overall electricity cost). Of course, this is in addition to us never profiting from the electricity you consume.
@@Tibber_Norge Thanks for the reply! If I can ask a follow up question on this: Spot price 13.6.21 was from 01-02AM 31.1 øre and from 02-03 it was 10,4 øre. That obviously means that I would be far better off getting a full charge at 02-03 than getting 20% off the 31,1 øre price (if we just compare these hour prices to make the big variations in spot pricing visible). Do you also guarantee that the price you pay will be less than if you did not engage the grid balancing?
@@topgunm Hi! Please reach out to our Support heroes via chat - they will be able to identify where the challenge is and how we can resolve it. The reason might be either technical in the car or the charging station (must be investigated).
@Bjørn: Big compliment, very professional interview!
Great stage setup, using 2nd camera on Edgeir, sound, inserts, cuts... Perfect!
And of course super interesting... Didn't know Tibber also triggers consumption for frequency balancing purposes.
Thank you on our behalf as well. You can read more on it at Forbes
www.forbes.com/sites/emanuelabarbiroglio/2020/08/28/a-swedish-energy-startup-wants-to-make-electricity-consumption-smarter/
Also, more information on our Magazine too:
tibber.com/en/magazine/inside-tibber/the-perfect-storm-energy-market
There's a really loud street somewhere nearby. Now I understand why you are moving away from there.
This it the kind of technology we need. I enjoy watching these new innovations pop up like mushrooms after rain.
In the U.K., some new power companies are offering similar services. I’m trialing a domestic electricity tariff which follows the wholesale electricity price. We only charge our EV when we have excess solar PV or when the price of grid electricity is low (at night). We would like to use our EV battery to power our home, but V2G is not available here, even though our Leaf supports bidirectional charging. The alternative is to install a Powerwall 2 or similar, but the economics are questionable.
Wow the dynamics about the energy price on the end of the video enlight the fact that there's a lot of future and exciting possibilities.
This seems to be very much like what Octopus Agile tariff is capable of when linked to a smart charger. It's popular in the UK with EV owners as occasionally you will be paid to consume electricity (negative pricing) as there is an excess of Renewables available.
@@abraxastulammo9940 There's no need for a tax, because you have to pay it back for electricity the next day. Likewise if you want to tax solar power, you need to allow deductions for buying the equipment.
@@abraxastulammo9940 it's not because it's not considered income.
@@abraxastulammo9940 it is not, it is worth very little and appears as money off your electricity bill, it provides stability for the grid, using power that would otherwise be wasted or cause a peaker plant to be switched off and on. Tesla is doing this with their grid scale batteries and autobidder software.
Windmills are normally stopped when there is too much sun (PV) and Wind in DE. I would like to see more storage for that produced electricity (and even if it‘s producing H2 with losses or charging cars or stabilizing mega batterie packs, than to just stop them ( moving them out of the wind). I just read in the weekends newspaper that legacy coal powered Power plants have increased their amount of the whole energy production in the 1st quarter of this year in DE due to low a wind. What a pity. Many thanks to Björn and Edgeir!!!
Great video! Nice to have an explanation about the challenges of a bidirectional system.
So EV are saving the power grid! Diesel man gonna hate!
Great talk, lots of great info
Very useful interview, focusing on the perspective on V2G. Thanks Bjorn!
Hatt ribber siden 2017 og fornøyd med app og integrering av tjenester.
The answers to the energy situation is most importantly, reduce use, as in increase efficiency, and stop unnecessary use. Then there's DSM, Demand Side Management, when to take that power from the grid, just managing when to take power from the grid doesn't need to have any significant drawbacks, or costs, but has huge potential. That's what's brilliant.
Specific energy storage should be last resort, and primarily done to fill actual need for energy when there's no better way to do that, not to "make use of excess energy". It's great to "find" use for excess energy, as with DSM, like Tibber does. But to "create" use for excess energy with specific investments in energy storage is not the big picture solution for grid management. What most people seem to fail to realize is that the issue is filling a need, with as little cost and negative consequences as possible, not making use of all the electric power generated at any cost.
That was entertaining! I'm waiting for the whole concept to happen, would be great!
Super interesting, thanks for the video!
I was on a similar trial in U.K. also when using solar and a “myenergi zappi” charger it will start and stop as the solar production reaches the minimum charge rate of the EV (1.4KW). We also get cheaper rate at night (3 times cheaper than daytime) on an EV tariff. Clearly some large differences there between U.K. and Europe (khhh Brexit)
Maybe he can point out the difference why the Tesla app is much more instant than for example the BMW app when sending commands.
Interesting interview. Sensible and not too shabby.
A fresh interview method.
Takk skal du ha
Great interview. Very interesting guy and ideas about new energy model.
More on this please, solar and batteries in spring/summer.
Thank you, glad to hear you like the way we think!
Yes Ediger is right that is not cost effective to use the car battery to storage grid energy. The battery is selected to be ideal for EV's meaning have the highest energy density possible to get the best range and be just good enough to last for the warranty period typical 8 to 10 years about 160000km and that is just around 400 to 500 cycles the battery needs to handle (400 cycles x 400km = 1600000km). LiFePO4 has lower energy density but also a much larger cycle life over 5x higher than NMC typical used in EV's. Still even LiFePO4 when used in EV's are typically optimized for energy density so they will still not be as good as those used for house energy storage. And then even with LiFePO4 used specifically for energy storage it barely makes sense at current cost and is mostly good for large scale energy storage still not cost effective for individual homes.
Things may improve in battery cost and cycle life that grid connected EV's will make economic sense but not right now.
I'm keeping an eye on CATL, who have said they will start making sodium based batteries. They have mentioned an energy density of 120 Wh/kg. And if they can scale those, they should become cheaper than lithium batteries, depending on the required cathode materials.
@@GoofyChristoffer LiFePO4 is already as good as it gets in therms of cycle life and more than that will not be helpful.
For example my A123 System LiFePO4 has a cycle life of 5400 cycles at 100% DOD and with small 5% or so DOD they can handle half a million cycles so almost like super capacitors.
The main degradation for my battery that I use to fully power my offgrid house is not due to cycle life but due to calendar aging degradation.
In 3 years of full time use I lost a bit more 4% of the original capacity and I use fairly heavy the battery as is just a 4.5kWh and I use around 120kWh/month not counting the heating that is also fully electric but that uses thermal storage.
Here is a link for the battery degradation test if interested in more details. groups.google.com/g/electrodacus/c/nKWp_6tjMNM/m/1f66fW6-BwAJ
In the US we have FERC regulation 2222 that will allow aggregators to offer grid services when it comes into force in a year or two. V1G (scheduled charging) can be practiced now and V2G would be even more helpful if EV makers allow it. There are aggregators now like Ohm Connect and Nuvve who are looking to provide these really useful grid services and reward customers that participate. Our town can text cystomers when peak loads are about to happen but it is purely voluntary. It would be better to get paid. Making it automatic is key
So this is the beginning of the smart grid people have been talking about!
Bjørn, you better turn off your outdoor lights🤣👍🇳🇴
Completely agree that grid balancing and cost savings can be done without V2G. But... I still want and need a solution to power my house during blackouts which happen just a few times a year and V2G would be amazing then and that would be so seldom Im not concerned about wearing out the battery.
~ 8:00 cost loss may apply to Norway, where PV doesn't make as much sense, but cost loss can be over-compensated in countries, where you have your own PV. From PV, the kWh is priced way below 10¢/kWh, while German grid Electricity incl taxes etc typically costs almost 31¢. Also it applies way less in countries, where you can draw electricity based on electricity stock exchange prices, where prices can even go negative, thus lowering customer prices (which still stay positive, at least in Germany because of all thise taxes and fees) by more than 10¢/kWh. Always have a look at the bigger picture, not just one country.
Still, I'm opting for ~12kWh home storage (~15 kWp PV) as my house will be heated by heat pump and the home battry storage is incentivized. And would simply like to have the car as an extra storage, just in case. And for stuff like camping of course :-)
Edit: now that I'm at 18:02, tibber offers flexible prices aswell (and sometimes even negative?), so ...
Edit 2 - 19:04 - no, end customers don't get paid for using electricity, because tax&fees are around 23¢/kWh, while grid electricity prices only go down to almost -10¢/kWh. But industry customers can indeed draw power for negative prices during those time slots.
Edit 3 - some hours later - erm, the thumbnail says "V2G", but I'm thinking V2H all the time ... for V2G, indeed many parameters (taxes, fees) would have to be changed, so EV owners could indeed earn some money this way or at least stay even. VW for example is one of the real big players and they want to change this game through their subsidiary "Elli", which is an electricity supplier, and not only for EVs. But I fear they're going to change the game in a way that they (and similar bigger companies) will make the profit and customers only get a minimal share :-/
@@abraxastulammo9940 taxes are high indeed, way too high (for end customers at least, while for the industry, they're lower in Germany than almost anywhere in Europe). But if you have an EV that you charge at home, you can make use of aWATTar (and there's another new energy supplier that Robin TV advertises for IIRC), who offer electricity stock exchange based hourly prices. And hopefully, the (next) government will scrap at least the EEG fee soon.
I'm not going to do any hopping, I stay with the most eco centric and anti monoploist suppliers I know, EWS. A similar alternative is Bürgerwerke. Both are self organized by their members/sustomers and invest as much into EE and alternative energy distribution concepts as possible.
Very interesting ideas and good learning opportunity.
I think that there is cars with V2G integrated in it almost 10 years ago. BYD E6 is one from it. I am not sure is there any information available about compatibility to local grid requirements.
As I heard BYD buses fleets too are realizing V2G feature in larger scale....
I'm too using switched charging, depending from my PV production power to use 100% PV energy to charge my EV.
Very good interview. However I need to correct Edgeir a bit.
You can control wind turbines. They have brakes to stop them from rotating. They are for instance stopped if it gets to windy. I suspect they also are stopped on other terms to because I have 3 of them in my western view and 11 in my eastern view. Very seldom do I see all of them spinning at the same time.
As a small digression : Beyonder is building their battery factory near the 3 turbines
Excellent, fasinating what they have developed.
Did you as him about some pointers for your new house?
Any update on new home?
V2G is not that difficult to implement and also not problematic in terms of cell chemistry. However, two very different paths are conceivable, on the one hand frequency stabilization through short-term infeeds and withdrawals and on the other hand the V2H applications to support the house. The former can help the local network operator to better regulate his local network and the latter is not particularly appreciated by any external provider because it means that less energy can be sold and of course there is no local network load at all. And of course this runs counter to the business model of all those providers who have already positioned themselves in the energy market and are now concerned about their assets. A distinction should always be made here, however, that the owners (and operators) of the local / supraregional / national energy networks are each different companies and these in turn differ from the companies that sell the electrical energy, at least in Germany.
With regard to the aging of the batteries and the on-board chargers, the situation is as follows: If you want to make the batteries as healthy as possible, you should only use short strokes for frequently changing discharges / charges in the SoC range between 60 and 40% exploit, which in the best temperature window of the performance may be up to 1C. For use in a domestic context, larger strokes of the SoC are also possible, but significantly lower power should be withdrawn / fed back. Here, too, it is important to ensure operation in the optimized temperature window.
In principle, it is also possible to design the on-board charger to be bidirectional. However, several chokes and filter stages have to be installed in order not to impose any harmonics on the network. Since these additional components require installation space and generate additional weight, such an implementation cannot be designed for very high outputs, so frequency stabilization and control power cannot be done well with it, unless you can control a vehicle fleet in this way.
Ultimately, however, large fleet associations such as bus depots and garbage trucks and logistics locations will come into question for V2G anyway, because they also have sufficient capacity at the power connection. The main obstacles are the reservations of all those players who are currently still earning money with the services and who have to forego their high margins through such flexibility. Without a doubt, arbitrage models equalize the development of electricity prices over the course of the day. Of course, this does not play into the cards of the energy traders and could even jeopardize their business model. Therefore, there are great reservations about V2G. Ultimately, however, it will be necessary to enable the switch to renewable electricity generation, as the volatility of generation can be evened out.
Yeah super interesting!
What i like most is the lowest tariff thing!
In Greece we got standard hi-low price timing but is much better service!
Time for a follow up?
Pretty cool stuff. What is the impact of smart charging on the battery lifespan if any?
An EV with good thermal management being charged/discharged between 30% and 70% at around 7-11kW suffers very little wear. Extend that down to 10% or up to 90% and there will be some wear worth considering.
Thank you - happy to hear you like it! Smart charging should not affect the battery lifespan.
Not so much the battery, but What about the lifespan of the onboard charger, its not healty to switch it on and off many, cycles more than it need too..
@@Pervypriest possibly. It's also not desirable the battery heater is involved each time. Could be extremely inefficient to spend 3kWh to warm a battery so that it can charge and discharge 7kWh, for example
I think you may be overanalyzing the problem. Its not like charging would go on and off very often. Prices only change every full hour. The trend I see from doing what tibber does manually ( excluding frequency balancing) is that the car can usually charge all I need in a single "low-cost" window so I really would not be too concerned with an occational extra on-off cycle.
Great video Bjørn 👍
More Tibber info please.
Supply with solar rules i Norway
Hi Thomas, happy you got excited about Tibber. You can find more info on our site: tibber.com/no - also a lot insights on smart charging and future of energy on our online Tibber Magazine tibber.com/no/magazine
Where can I find the link to the video about the e-nv 200 in Kopenhagen? Thx from one of the german e-nv 200 driver!
Search for " Nissan V2G in Copenhagen ".
@@TheSweMusicMan Thx!
Ontario Hydro (Ontario's main electric utility) had a program which reduced air conditioning, water heating and swimming pool pump to reduce stress on the grid during high energy demand. It was ended December 2017.😭
The Ontario load reduction program became redundant because of CFL and then LED bulbs + daytime power from rooftop solar PV. The peak summer grid load ever, was about 15 years ago.
Hold your horses guys... As an end customer you do not get any money back from your energy supplier. You not even have the chance to optimize the kWh cost as most contracts run for 12 months with a fixed kWh price for 24x7x365. So, no variation at all. In Germany the electricity companies get the benefits of variable prices but not the consumer. But interesting technology. I am sure we will see some new use cases for our car batteries.
Thank you for your feedback. Actually, you would be paid if you use electricity during the times when there are negative prices in case you would have a spot price contrac. In Germany, we provide this same opportunity for everyone with a smart meter - so essentially as a Tibber customer, you would be the one benefiting from negative prices.
@@Tibber_Norge Sounds too good to be true. But I will check your internet sides.
@@tymanot Thank you for the compliment - and hope we can live up to your expectations. Let us know if you have any questions, we'll be happy to respond to all of them.
Sharing few articles from our Magazine on the topic:
Flexible Strompreise - Risikofaktor oder Innovation mit Sparpotential?
tibber.com/de/magazine/power-hacks/flexible-strompreise
Negative Strompreise und warum garantierte kWh-Preise nur auf den ersten Blick Sinn ergeben
tibber.com/de/magazine/power-hacks/negative-strompreise
It would interesting to know if DC is the future. Having keep changing AC to DC don’t make sense. I’ve got Solar and need inverter to use it. So when charging my car the solar DC is inverted to AC and the.my car has to change is back again to DC. Most modern devices could work on DC and anything else might cost to update, but savings from inverting would be worth it.
There a significant challenge with high voltage DC: electric arcs. AC goes to 0 volts 100-120 times per second, which allows the ionization of the air to dissipate, and helps to stop the arcing. And this happens every time you try to open a circuit with a switch or contactor.
What do i get for flexing the grid? Free charging?
20 % flat discount
I do not need tibber to charge my car or stop it when tibber tells me it expensive now. You can simply use smart walboxes e.g. openWB which can (if you want it) to load your vehicle simply out of your PV or house batterie.
Right now I only see users with no PV to charge their EV according to tibbers recommendations
Save the planet - turn off light during day ;-)
Removing company profit incentives for consumption, excellent. However you don't want to remove/minimse the cost message to the consumer. Many people behave in really stupid ways when provided with something for free, or at trivial additional cost
Thank you - we are happy to hear that you agree that electricity without profit is the way for the future. Good point also about human behaviour. This does not apply for Tibber customers as they tend to be smart - AND they still pay the market price for the electricity they consume.
@@Tibber_Norge time of use, fair pricing, excellent :)
This guy needs to study the Industry a litle further, his present knowledge makes him just blowing smoke out of his a…..
Vehicle to Home is much more important for me and other Texans. V2G is for the utility companies benefit not the consumers in most cases I have seen. If they want V2G, the utility needs to pay half the cost for my EV supplying them electricity to even the grid out. Your never going to make enough money as a consumer selling V2G energy back to grid to offset the degradation on the EV battery pack your going to get. V2H much more important and having small to medium sized battery for home like Tesla Powerwall or others is easier for grid leveling.
V2G or V2H should be done DC. There is no point for the vehicle to carry all this AC/DC/AC conversion equipment. Fun Fact: All EVs with fast charging are technically ready for DC V2G, all what is needed is to amend the CCS protocol to make the vehicle close the DC contactors when ask to supply electricity. Edit: Volkswagen has proposed V2G in DC already.
Very interesting. We'll see who that helps .
Really interesting range of products from Tibber
Just wondering when Ioniq 5 review is coming, we need "real world" range test and the back glass/ rear window "gate"....
Bjørn will get the Ioniq 5 at the end of July.
One of the main reasons I placed a pre-order for the F-150 Lightning with V2H capability is that I want to do my own load balancing. We live in rural Georgia, and our solar net metering pays out at bulk rate $0.029/kWh every day at midnight. I want to bank my excess production on sunny days and power my house with V2H on cloudy days. This won't be cost effective on its own, but I detest the net metering terms so much that I'm doing it as a bit of revenge against the electric provider. Not to mention I'll have a full size electric pickup to enjoy as an added bonus, as well as to make more use of my significantly oversized solar installation.
There's a feature here which allows the power company to control your air conditioner for a certain amount of time a day for load balancing, and they give you a discount on your bill to have that privilege. This seems to be the same concept your guest is talking about, only with higher amperage applications.
Really interresting interview, but what bothers me the most, is the burning lightbulb(LED?) on the balcony/porch, i think it is on 24/7, if it is not on 24/7 okay, but looks it is on always.
Turn of those energy users, if they are not neccessary, or put them on a timeswitch !
Have a great day, and stay safe !
Oh Tibberbjørn😅
I see a lot of roofs in your neighborhood without PV. Room for improvement 😜
In Norway, 99% of the electricity comes from water/hydro plant. Also, sunlight contains way less energy there. I think solar panels make no sense there.
No, what Tibber is doing is not V2G! It is V1G and does not send back power to the grid, so it can not be compared.
IONIQ 5 already has V2L. Certainly powering your home from your EV makes only sense when you have your own PV. And also the cars battery can be used to stabilize the grid. Why are there already companies who sell you a Akkumulator for your PV to also be used in the grid to stabilize. E.g. Sonnen.de sells batteries for your home. Why not using a cars battery for this in future when V2G communication is documented and certified. And yes I don‘t want to completely discharge my car. But given the fact that cars batteries are much bigger than your normal house batteries, I think that is a great idea.
Does Tibber have a plan for how they will bid in the frequency market?
Will the flexibility option of smart chargers be executed often due to low bidding by Tibber?
Or will it only be triggered rarely due to other players bidding lower?
That is a very complex question which depends on many factors. We are not only looking at the primary frequency markets but also other markets including local flexibility. Essentially we will be placing our flexibility where the most value is for Tibber and our customers and that will be highly dynamic.
Very interesting interview, thanks! Just wondering, if we move to DC in households in future to avoid DC - AC conversion...
There are still losses converting from one voltage of DC to another. And DC is in some ways better than AC, but has other challenges that are not necessarily easily overcome.
@@GoofyChristoffer I hear low voltage DC is used in Switzerland for lighting in new builds
This interview should have been done in Norwegian because most things only apply to Norway.
V2G is pointless in in Norway where power is almost 100% from hydropower available 24/7/365 , it's dark all winter so not ideal for solar, it has very low population density and people have such disposable incomes that their power bill is insignificant relative to their income. I'm not sure that even the proposed smart charging makes any sense or difference at all.
In other countries, we need to develop V2G asap to ensure that we can maximise renewable and a carbon neutral energy mix, otherwise our EV's will be powered by gas or coal powerplants, which is pointless.
The paradox of Norway? Number 1 in EV adoption and number 5 in the world in oil production per capita.
Oil exports are paying for your EV's, so Norwegians are net mega-polluters.
Norway, If you care for the environment, STOP PRODUCING OIL!
Also, stop using timber for heating, use green electricity!
1 Million tons of wood being burned in Norway for heating each year.
1 MILLION TONS!
Next time, make a business out of solving those problems of Norway instead of lecturing the rest of the world on V2G.
I don't care about V2G but V2H is extremely important! For me it's not economically sound to have an EV if it can't be used as a V2H battery in combination with my solar power system.
EVs and their batteries work just fine with this (LiFePO4 being most suitable). For this use manufacturer's will most likely limit the charge level between 20%-80%, or something like that. VW already has this tech in the field with their 22kW bidirectional charger.
Also in cold climate that 10% conversion loss (closer to 7% if the source is DC from a solar power system) is often not waste. It provides needed heating to the garage.
@@tkermi Yes, but it mostly heats the garage in summer when we get 400 KWh per week and 4 AM sunrise. Not so much around Christmas when we get 17 KWh per week and 4 PM sunset.
@@RandyTWester True, but for me typically only less than 2 summer months (~8 weeks) are so warm that heating my garage isn't beneficial. For example now the night temperature drops to 9°C (48°F) and my garage isn't as well insulated as the rest of my house (the big door isn't even available with excellent insulation - at least not at reasonable price).
My big water accumulator and a lot of piping is in the room beside the garage so keeping the garage warm also helps to limit the heat loss from that.
This is in southwest Finland, in a city called Pori.
Vehicle to Grid is important to me
GREAT interview. I have had Tibber for a 7-8 months now. Love it. Question (for followup interview); First off there is probably huge money for Tibber to be made by frequency balancing the net with their customer base. However, this is all good business for them, but considering it will affect the end user by stopping charging when the prices at at their lowest, how will they compensate the end user for this? As the best interest for the customer is obviously to charge when the prices are at their lowest, vs stopping charging for x-min when it's at the lowest.
Thank you, we are glad you liked it and always delighted to e-meet a happy customer. Right now, for customers that are eligible for participating for grid balancing, ie. they charge with a connected wallbox, we provide a guaranteed discount on electricity used for smart charging 50% in Sweden, and 20% in Norway (compared to your overall electricity cost). Of course, this is in addition to us never profiting from the electricity you consume.
@@Tibber_Norge Thanks for the reply! If I can ask a follow up question on this: Spot price 13.6.21 was from 01-02AM 31.1 øre and from 02-03 it was 10,4 øre. That obviously means that I would be far better off getting a full charge at 02-03 than getting 20% off the 31,1 øre price (if we just compare these hour prices to make the big variations in spot pricing visible). Do you also guarantee that the price you pay will be less than if you did not engage the grid balancing?
@@topgunm Hi! Please reach out to our Support heroes via chat - they will be able to identify where the challenge is and how we can resolve it. The reason might be either technical in the car or the charging station (must be investigated).