I'm against it, it's better to buy a dedicated home battery that is way cheaper than ruining the BEV's battery worth €20-40,000 alone. If I would buy a used EV in the future I want a guarantee that it hasn't been used V2G/anything.
@@_TrueDesire_ having seen other videos on the subject, it has been suggested that the research is showing ev batteries actually benefit from charging and then slowly releasing the energy back to the grid or home.
@@_TrueDesire_ I think you need to look into this more deeply. I don't think your claim is anywhere near correct. Just over 21,000 british pounds will buy you a complete Aptera with 25 kWh battery and when V2G is standardized, make it an even better value proposition than purchasing a Powerwall, for instance.
Great video! The one thing missing was discussion of battery degradation. Li ion battery degradation is not as simple as the number of cycles, and the two things that cause the most degradation are: 1. rapid charging (or rapid discharging) while the battery is too hot or cold, and 2. charging up to 100% (or discharging down to 0%) and waiting there. Point #1 can be easily addressed: the 7kW that single-phase infrastructure in the UK can handle is child's play for an EV battery. They've got >100kW motors and can often rapid charge at >100kW too, so 7kW is nothing, even when very cold or hot. As for point #2, this is why some EVs have an option to charge only up to 80%. Some don't (like my Nissan Leaf), so plugging in overnight will probably be a very-small bad time for the battery, as it charges up as high as it can. V2X systems have to have a complex negotiation (like a rapid charger, which is how the charger knows the battery's state of charge) and the software platforms backing bidirectional chargers usually keep the battery between 20% and 80% by default (with the options to charge up to 100% if requested). This is what OVO and Octopus did with their trials. I've had a couple of chats with Mike at Fully Charged Live. He's a great guy, but I think he's being a bit conservative with AC V2G's prospects. A unidirectional on-board charger is already kitted up with 1 diode and 1 transistor per phase leg (2 diodes and 2 transistors for single-phase, 3 diodes and 3 transistors for 3-phase). This forms a so-called 'totem pole' active front end, steadying the >2kW power draw (there is also a 'bridged conventional' layout, but this needs a load of extra diodes so I doubt any automakers are using it). The bidirectional form of the totem pole converter swaps the diodes for transistors and... that's about it! It's the same layout as a DC-to-AC inverter. You need to update the controller so that it can run all 4 or 6 of the transistors in both modes, and make sure that the DC-to-DC stage is also bidirectional but, fundamentally, there are only a few components that need swapping for ones that are barely more expensive. Hyundai appear to have used exactly this solution in the Ioniq 5 and 6, Kia EV6 and Genesis EVs. That V2L function is from a bidirectional on-board charger! Chipmakers (the end I approached this from) are super-keen to get their SiC MOSFETs into this application, and already sell 6.6kW bidirectional charger demo units. The biggest impediment is having to redesign your on-board charger. Hyundai bit the bullet, and seem to be reaping the benefits. I really hope that the on-board charger of 2030 is a bidirectional 22kW 3-phase charger. Hyundai have proved that bidirectional is possible and Renault have proven that 22kW is possible. If you use DC V2G, you're no longer talking about swapping a handful of diodes for transistors, you've got to build the whole thing from scratch. The Wallbox Quasar costs about £6000, and apparently has some issues with overheating, even after all that engineering and hardware. For a low(ish)-power 7kW home wallbox, that's much too expensive for mass deployment. Many of the latest AC home charge points (updated to comply with new UK government regulations) already support AC V2G communications (look for 'ISO 15118 ready', this is the protocol AC V2G and CCS V2G are using), making AC V2G much more effective at home. Where I see DC V2G being successful is in commercial fleets and/or anywhere there are 22kW or 50kW DC chargers. If you're looking for 22kW or 50kW charging (maybe at a delivery van depot, or for a heavier bus or lorry fleet to charge overnight), you'll probably want to make that DC anyway, so why not upgrade that unidirectional charger to bidirectional? As discussed above, the cost difference is not large. As you might be able to tell, I am *super enthusiastic* about V2G. With V2G, load peaks will no longer be a thing, and it solves the intermittency of solar power pretty much completely. I would recommend anyone getting a Hyundai, Kia or Genesis EV to add V2L - they're only a dealership software update away from AC V2H and V2G. I will be watching Volvo/Polestar and Volkswagen's bidirectional developments with bated breath. And I really, really hope that home V2G will be online by next winter. It needs some organisational co-operation, but all the pieces are there and ready to put together! I can't wait!
Thanks, that's very informative. It would be great to make more use of the batteries in my EVs, which spend most of their life doing nothing. And if it was done via the AC type 2 connector, as you say I can't imagine it doing the car batteries any harm.
Cycle counts are still a significant part of battery degradation and I’d be surprised owners will want to risk that with their very expensive vehicle batteries. Current Lithium Ion batteries in use are not suitable for daily grid cyclic usage; maybe if you only permit a maximum of 10-20% use but then that limit fhe overall benefits this is meant to provide. It will be interesting to see how vehicle manufacturers state their battery warranties with respect to this usage. I bet they will add a cycle limit.
Our small family business brought our first EV in NZ 5.5 years ago. Cost us $18000 of which we claimed GST and deprecation for the first 3 years, now claiming milage. To date the EV has saved us $24700 on fuel, $2500 on maintenance and claimed so far $22300 on deprecation and milage. That EV has made/saved us $31,500! If we were to buy privately then we would had still not only paid off the EV, it would had still made/saved extra $9200 over keeping existing petrol car or buying a petrol car at same price. 5.5 years on the battery has degraded to 77% from 94% which is approximately a 30km range decrease, but still within our working day travel requirements. We are looking to upgrade the battery next year which is approximately $23000 for a 40kWh liquid cooled new replacement from EV Enhanced, which will give us 3x the range but since were already $31,500 in "profit" the battery replacement will had already been paid for. Why upgrade over buying another one is purely because its over $40,000 for the similar battery/range, plus there's nothing wrong mechanically with our current EV. By far the best decision of a purchase and yes we were skeptical and thought the range would be a hinderance etc.. but glad we didn't wait.
V2H is great for some people, but is not scalable to the entire population. Planning regulations increasingly prioritize higher density housing for environmental reasons. This will mean more families living in apartments, which will mean less roof space per person.
The physics of VTG mean that the current from the EV will flow ‘downhill’ to the closest demand, your own or neighbouring homes, so grid losses wouldn’t feature.
Would love to have V2H - the scale of an EV battery compared to a home ESS is vast in comparison - only downside would be when the car is actually away and being used 😬
When I first installed my solar a year ago my plan was to compliment that with an EV to store the excess and feed it back to my house at night. I assumed it would be a standard feature but I've since learned it's not even an option yet. Clearly it's the path forward.
you can make any ev into v2g in a ghetto diy way, get a generator and make something like a dyno for your car and just push the accelerator pedal in your car lol I know you could make it more elegant but at least you dont have to modify the car
Of course the other benefit of V2G not mentioned on the video is being self sufficient in electricity for short periods. Being able to power your home for a few hours during a power cut is a huge benefit. I have an Ioniq 5 and am able to do V2H with a long extension lead and it’s a great benefit.
Just having a V2G capable car connected to your house will NOT provide any power to your home during an outage - in the UK at least - unless you also invest in some modifications to your fixed electrical installation to accommodate local generation in the same way as you would for a PV+battery system or a diesel generator. It CAN be done, it just isn't as straightforward as having a V2H or V2G car plugged in.
@@protectiongeek If it becomes a chief point of focus then mass scale implementations will default on V2G setups with mass produced and ultimately simplified cost reduced equipment.
@@johnknight9150 hmmm IF indeed. There's no doubt that the number of new cars on the road that are EVs is increasing at quite a rate, which is already causing problems of supply (of cars, not electricity). Even if we assume that governments will actually stop the sale of ICE vehicles from, say, 2030, the time to 'mass scale implementations' could be another 8 to 10 years. There are just over 28 million homes in the UK and about 75% of them have at least one car so I'm not sure who will be applying the implementation in something like 1.2 million homes per year between now and 2040.
Here is my Quandary living in Australia: I own solar panels and have for a few years now, I was initially getting 10 cents per kWh I was providing to the grid, this meant my electricity bill went from $1000 per quarter to less than $200 per quarter and most of that bill was the connection and supply charge. Now I am getting 4 cents per kWh and my bill has now doubled to over $400 per quarter, all the while all energy costs are rising across the board so I am at a loss to understand how my rebate has done the reverse. Further it is in the government's best interest for me to pay higher prices as they collect more in the way of GST (goods and service tax). Now they are working on a solar export tax, that is they want to charge me for supplying them with my excess generated power. So looking forward I believe the option best suited to my situation is to store my own generated power and disconnect from the grid entirely. Now who do you suppose is going to benefit from this decision I am sure many other solar owners are going to be considering this approach. I promise you that the extreme wealth of the oil and mining are not going down without one hell of a fight. In this country our political parties are funded by donations and those donations talk big time.
On-site use of PV-generated electricity needs to be the highest priority. There are utilities that provide even less than 4 OZ cents per kWh. There are at least three loads that everyone should consider defecting from the grid, and powering with direct current, straight off their panels: PV-->domestic hot water is the easiest since you already own the storage tank. PV-->space heat might apply, depending on the season and where you live. PV-->EV is an advanced DIY project but can be run from the same 180v- 250V PV array that powers one's water heater or space heater. The first two are simple PWM controllers. Charging an EV with DC off the same PV array requires a boost-mode DC-DC converter. These three tasks are performed with PV power that isn't even connected to the grid. It's none of their business yet it still reduces your purchases from the utility by the retail cost of electricity.
Good vid. I've had solar since 2012. 100kWh across two EVs in the garage. ASHP. So desperate for V2H/G. Have Ioniq 5 with V2L so already has the DC/AC converter. At FCL last year I asked all the charger manufacturers about their V2G development - all said at least 2 years away. And Myenergi (maker of my Zappi charger) actually said there was no demand 🙄 So yes please - urgently needed. Keep up the good work
Julian - I got a sparky to wire up my Kia EV6 to my house - via a physical transfer switch to ensure I cant feed back to grid if supply work is taking place. The 3.6kw inverter on my Kia will run all except oven/induction hob, so for background usage outside of cheap rate (0030-0430). Nowhere near as slick as a V2H wall charger - I didnt get onto the Indra trial - but basic V2H from existing V2L cars (Kia, Hyundai, MG and I think VW shortly). Requires a physical disconnect from grid but allows me to lead shift to Octopus cheap rate electric. Mark
@@markharrison4808 brilliant. Thank you Mark. I had wondered this? I’d even talked to my neighbourhood electrician, who was going away to investigate. But all went quiet. What happens when you reach the 3.6kW output? We don’t get many power outages and in fact Western Power are putting in another spur for resilience for our Estate supply. So it could keep our home running for almost 3 days. But not if the ASHP is required in Winter. But great to know you have a solution
If the house asks for more than 3.6kw the car objects and cuts the power. And the house goes off. As I say not a perfect solution, but a simple way to run off a 60-70kw battery up to 3ish kw. M
Fantastic idea, shame that many/most people will find this impossible due to issues with the District Network Operators (DNO). These are the people who have to give you permission to connect to the grid. I live in a 10 year old house 75m from the local SSEN substation. I have 8kWp solar and CANNOT add any additional export capability. I've had batteries (Tesla) fitted and these have had to be set to zero export, and getting that sorted was a struggle. The only way around this is to install a new cable all the way from my house to the substation - bargain at £25,000 (estimated - I'd have to sign up to pay what it costs!). With these issues I can't see how this will gain much penetration in the UK, at least at a domestic level.
I am just installing 12.6kWp and after paying Northern Powergrid £450 they will only allow 3.6kWp!! They sight high grid voltage but when I checked in middle of day it was 237 which is low in my book. This is a big farmhouse and yet only has a 80A incoming fuse and now NPG want £660 to decide if its possible to give a 100A fuse?!! Someone needs to get a grip of these G100 export limitations before it kills a whole load of potential jobs off and or wastes a load of capacity.
At last! Someone who knows what infrastructure is and has also, unfortunately, has experience of what is required to allow us to enable all of this clever stuff.
Your 'issues' are not with the DNO; they are simply ensuring that your installation - including any potential exported energy - is operated according to national engineering recommendations. Most people won't find export *impossible* but what they may find is that they can't always export all the energy they generate when they want to depending on where they are on the network and the electrical characteristics of the local network. Although it would cost a bit, you could commission an electrical engineer to carry out an independent assessment of your connection to the DNO network to make sure that they haven't made an error. One criticism that _could_ be levelled at the industry is that those doing the G99/G100 assessments are not necessarily qualified to do so. In my 32 plus years as a DNO engineer, I witnessed this decline over many years. Good luck.
One concern for me is that wherever there is “customer savings”, there are losses for the likes of BP and Shell. Which means they’ll do everything in their power to slow down this sort of progress. Do we think they will?
We can be sure that the energy retailers will be ensuring they make as much profit as they can. Even if they aren't generating the electricity they will be trying to ensure they make money by clipping the ticket every time EV owners supplement the grid by taking a cut of the difference between rates which are paid.
@@Hubris2 There has to be a financial incentive for it to work. Suppliers get to balance demand meaning they don't need as much spare capacity to deal with peak demand. Customers can reduce their electricity bills. So, it could be a win win situation if done correctly. However will require a significant investment to be made to make it work. As a minimum, every house or car will need to be wired to do it. An inverter in car or house required plus smart metering in the home and software and possibly hardware in the car.
I’ve been part of the Octopus Energy/Octopus EV Powerloop V2G trial. My car is plugged in and powering the house and exporting to the grid as I write. I love it I have to say - from approx 16:30-20:30 (depending on how much % is in the battery) each eve the house is powered by the car. I get credit on my tariff every month for the energy exported from the car. What we need though more cars able to do it. For the trial I’ve been leasing a Leaf from Octopus EV - but that lease comes to an end in a year. At that point it’s likely we’ll need a different car (for personal household circumstances we need something a little bigger) - but that would mean no more V2G. We really need CCS and more cars able to do this now!
Nope. There will always be a limit to the amount you can export. It can only be the equivalent of a bit of load shedding on behalf of you neighbours. The grid must always be unidirectional to your house for safety and equipment. The switches and transformers only work with power flowing one way - towards you. It is a short term power play while the grid is in transition.
The glamorous assistant Robert completes the episode! This is something I will share with family members who read just enough to be dangerous ("EVs will harm the grid!") This is very accessible for a lot of us Yanks.
I have been on the OVO V2G trial since July 2019 and have exported over 18MWh in that time. I found that it covered my electricity usage for home and car completely up until the energy rate hike in recent times and now is just over breakeven. My car remains plugged in when at home and the software looks after the rest. I was concerned about battery degradation but need not have been. What I found is that there was no significant degradation and may well have been a positive for battery health. Going forward I agree with Mike its now about standardisation. My V2G works fine on CHADEMO and the Nissan Leaf but there are too many EV's out there without the capability which will stall further roll outs of infrastructure. I do not have Solar unfortunately due to protection orders on trees that cast shadows on my roof. It was in looking for other solutions that attracted me to the V2G trial by OVO which I first saw at the first Fully Charged Live show. Keep up the great work.
I can't wait for this to roll out in full, I saw this idea many years ago and have been using this idea to help converting people to the idea of an EV. My Tesla Powerwall is 13.5kWh, so for my 64kWh EV battery this is not a lot, so could easily power my home in the evening or send power to the grid, then charge up again overnight. A great video!
CHAdeMO is a real bonus .... It is still the only original bi directional as standard vehicle interface You can plug a V2L ( Vehicle to Load) cable and power most domestic appliances up to max 4 KW from the traction battery We have been using our 2014 mitsi PHEV to power our of grid caravan trouble free last 5-6 years, the 12 KW battery lasts all weekend between charges , but the game changer with the Mitsi PHEV is when stationery in charge mode ( to recharge traction battery) it's quieter & more fuel efficient than our 10 hp honda generator 🤠👍
@@MD-gx9kj only supposed to be suitable for 3-4 kwh short cycle power take off , from vehicle inverter ( but we had 0% problem using it all week off grid) the CHAdeMO power take off standalone inverters are for 4-8kwh sustainable load 🙄
Imagine airport parking lots, and work lots filled with these, and those facilities using rooftop solar to get all their electricity. True distributed power opportunities. It will be remarkable once this takes up...
I have recently been involved with testing one of these 2 way power units for a major car manufacturer that they are intending to fit across their range of electric vehicles to enable them to back feed the grid. One of the issues that I have not seen discussed anywhere is the premature aging of the battery pack caused by the increased number of charge cycles it will undergo, possibly 10 to 20 over night in areas where the main grid is a bit soft due to its capacity. In some locations that suffer from brownouts or are not close to a generating system may not have very good power regulation and the car battery would attempt to smooth the fluctuations out.
Longevity of the battery pack is in part governed by the chemistry used. Lithium iron phosphate batteries are expected to more than double the numbers of cycles achievable with Li-on.
Your point that the battery longevity is a valid one, but a 'cycle' is from fully empty, to fully charged and back to empty again, so that's not happening 20x per night. But - how will a car manufacturer guarantee their battery? Today 'miles' is an indicator or 'charging', but theoretically in the future we might have a car with zero miles on it, but where the battery has been cycled many, many times. Maybe the manufacturers have to start guaranteeing their batteries based on number of 'virtual' cycles or some such.
this would be the last piece of the puzzle for me. already having 8KW solar, and a 13.5KW Tesla power wall 2, plus Nissan leaf. It would enable me to be largely self sufficient most of the year and only use cheap overnight rates during the winter. Currently the battery is covering about 12 hours a day and then runs out, leaving me to pay peak rate import tariff. Here is a quick tip for anyone with off peak tariffs. I looked last week at all of my electric appliances, dishwasher, washing machine and dryer and went looking on the net for the instructions to see if any of them support delay start. Turns out they all did, we have now moved all of our usage into the cheap overnight rates. Could kick myself for not thinking of this earlier. cheers for the video and keep up the great work.
I'm currently waiting to hear if our home had been accepted for Indras new V2H trial. This could really help us reduce costs and remove our home from the peak grid load. It can't come soon enough, watching our smart meter everyday isn't pleasant viewing right now.
hope you get it. I only spotted the new trial six days after the latest round closed and was gutted. I have had my Nissan leaf for two years specifically for its V2H capability. As interim steps, I have just had fitted a Tesla power wall and 8KW solar with a zappi charger. made a huge difference, but the battery is not big enough to last the entire day, and its frustrating that I have another 40KW battery sat next to my house that I cannot take energy from when I need it. Will continue to wait with interest.
@J Uttley Shame you missed out, we're going to have to pay £1600 towards the hardware if we do get selected. If that price is reflective of the retail cost then maybe in the not too distant future it'll be viable for mass market. It's exciting tech and i hope in the future it'll play a big part of levelling grid load and reducing costs for consumers.
Is the UK grid up to it? Can the grid support V2G/H? Which energy providers are on-board? Octopus seems to be with three car supported by their tariff. Is that a good choice for the consummers? Which contarctors can install the relevant equipment to make it happen? And will they have to be MCS certified? Which is even more expense. I can find only one bi-directional charger avalable in the UK at over 4k uninstalled. Is that cost possitive? And thats just the charger. V2G/H has been talked about since Fucashima 2012 and more widly in the West since 2018. So where are we with this? The car manufactures are scared silly about this becasue of their warrenties, so which car OEM is oppenly backing V2G/H and is willing to garantee the grids use of their warentied batteries?
One problem area you didn't touch on was the impact in the batteries and how a vehicle manufacturers warranty might be impacted. For instance, if most manufacturers offer an 8-year, 100k miles warranty (based on average miles driven and therefore an average charging pattern, and therefore battery cyclcles), then how would this change when the vehicle manufacturer doesn't know how often you will cycle your battery (which could move from once per week, to once per day).
May just change the verbiage from miles to watt hours. Power applications are typically less stressful on the battery than driving, so while cycle life is affected it's not exactly the equivalent of driving more.
There will be two types of grid in the future. The National Grid, in the UK as now, and then local "micro" grids. Also instead of V2G, it will to S2G (storage to grid) , where home, vehicle and workplace batteries are used to smooth energy supply. We will need a lot more electricity generated (Oxford Low Carbon Hub reckon on 3 times the current amount), and the National Grid can't be upgraded fast enough to cope. So the answer will be local generation, and storage, for local use. Community-based projects will drive this new model.
I would only pass electric back to the grid if I had a surplus, if I had an expensive solar set-up and battery and this would require sunshine and warmth here in the far north of England. Octopus saving sessions are great and shows how so many ones can act to save a lot for many.
EVTEC is the only company today that already sells a charging station to the market which is working with the CCS standard. The Honda E in combination with the "sospeso&charge" charging station from EVTEC is possible to access the huge potential of rolling batteries.
PLEASE dont take this the wrong way. I love your channel an everyone has the right to live there lidf they please. The problem is, as I have been watching the channel for so long it has now became tought to ignore. Robert, please take of yourself and watch what you are eating and how much you are doing activity wise. I am sorry, this is incrediby personal, but I really value this channel and I only wish the best for you all.
Just seen this comment by chance, I am very touched by your concern. I can only reassure you that I am indeed looking after myself, I am probably as fit now as any 67 year old, I assume you are referring to my weight, a curse for the over 60's, but I have recently lost weight and am exercising a great deal, every day. I'll be around for a while.
I think smart charging that allows users to select what % of their battery they want to be used for powering a home/grid, how many miles they intend to drive, and something that shows what they would make from giving back to the grid for various %'s dedicated to this purpose, would be phenomenal for EV and home owners, and the a massive boost to the grid!
That second contentious point - the thing that turns AC into DC is not an inverter. An inverter, as the name suggests, turns direct current into alternating current. Not the other way around.
A classic example of how "light touch" and "less red tape" will slow progress so a clear central strategy is needed. Also, a key point at the end, ie how this is great for wealthy house and car owners but unavailable for many.
The major hangup I see with such strategies is the lifespan of the battery. Would this increase in charge/discharge cycles make the battery have a shorter life, thereby foisting the cost of replacing this grid storage onto the vehicle owner? I think for this to work, we need some sort of equivalent reimbursement scheme that compensates people for the lifespan toll such usage takes on their car's battery. That, and we need MUCH more robust battery recycling infrastructure, because all this added load on these batteries will mean we need more replacements, more often. This means we need to make sure we're not just offsetting emissions to battery production. It's absolutely essential we get battery recycling up to an acceptable level, if we want this to work.
Average annual distance cars drive is 12000km a year. Which is about 5kWh a day of driving. With an average EV battery of 60kWh you could easily use 20kWh to send back to the grid. However total ownership of your own grid is going to be far superior. No more corporations sucking you dry.
IONIQ 5 actually has a bi-directional onboard charger, that is currently dumbed-down in firmware. All we need is software update to make it work. And some legal regulation of course.
@@AttilaTheHun333333 ioniq 5 is not theoretical, the inverter actually has the needed hardware. It already offers V2L on one of phases in reverse, while other phases are disabled in firmware. Those 25 cars that are being tested with V2G are only "modified" in software. So once legal stuff is in place, I can see hyundai issuing a software patch. Or they will only enable it in new model, to make you buy it.
@@circuitdotlt Sure, Leaf Owners are waiting for V2G for how many years now, with their Vehicles capable of it in hardware? It doesn't matter if the hurtles are real or in the legal details...they are there.
A Really good, clear presentation. Thank you. VTH seems to me to be the optimum, with no transmission losses or infrastructure costs. VTG however, will help balance & clean up the grid, and is suitable for those without driveways or deep pockets.
In March 2022 I had a 35 panel solar array installed (JoJu Solar, thanks Robert) and this has been a great success. I anticipate payback over five years. I didn't go for a home battery because I would like a V2H or V2G electric car. I can't justify spending £40k on a car unless there are benefits greater than just having an electric vehicle. V2H or V2G would effectively offer a discount on the car equivalent to what I would save by not having to purchase a house battery. As this video makes clear the industry is not quite where I need it to be to make my first venture into electric cars. My trusty 10 year old VW Golf will have to keep going until it is, which is a shame.
“And were already kind of used to this…” and then proceeds to list time of day tariffs and a bunch of other stuff that I’ve never experienced, LOL. I’m jealous, though, I’d love to “gamify” my electricity bill like that! I’d love to see how low I could get my hydro bill by using smart appliances, etc.
CHAdeMO is a real bonus .... It is still the only original bi directional as standard vehicle interface You can plug a V2L ( Vehicle to Load) cable and power most domestic appliances up to max 4 KW from the traction battery We have been using our 2014 mitsi PHEV to power our of grid caravan trouble free last 5-6 years, the 12 KW battery lasts all weekend between charges , but the game changer with the Mitsi PHEV is when stationery in charge mode ( to recharge traction battery) it's quieter & more fuel efficient than our 10 hp honda generator 🤠👍
I’ve been lucky to have had V2G and then V2H for around 3.5 years now and convinced this is a technology that is a no brainer. Batteries are expensive and should be maximised as an asset. I’ve saved thousands of pounds and significant amount of carbon. My battery degradation is non existent from what I can tell. Just wish the legislation was sorted and ev manufactures (Elon musk is guilty!) are forced to deploy this.
Good video! Recently I switched to an all electric ground source heat pump that - with current low temperatures - consumes approx. 18kWh/day. If it is a sunny day, my 11kWp solar can contribute, but the grid usually has to supplement a substantial share in these darker winter days. If my Kona was V2G is could provide some of the energy from its 64kWh battery, but not for long, considering the limited nr. of sun hours in the winter. Having said that, new battery technologies, such as graphene/aluminium from the Graphene Manufacturing Group (Australia), will substantially increase the charging speed (like 70x!) as well as the energy density (like +50%). Hence allowing charging 'in a flash' when supply is high. Combine this with wireless charging that enables ubiquitous charging (traffic light, parking lots, lamp posts) , and the current way of charging an EV (cable & wait time) quickly looks antique. I see a bright future!
Another informative and well presented video! I agree about homes with solar PV and home batteries choosing to use as much of their solar power as possible in their home and augmenting this with cheap rate electricity from the grid to charge up their batteries at night. This is what I'm doing and of course if more people adopt this method so the demand on the grid at peak times will reduce. I do agree that V2G has to be the right solution in the longer term though and can only hope that EV manufacturers are willing to work closely with the National Grid in the UK, (and equivalent authorities in other countries), to bring this into being.
V2G might make more sense for multi-unit dwellings like apartment buildings and condos where any given individual doesn't have their own driveway, or roof for solar. For people with their own homes & solar setups, the house battery would likely be the better focal point for any grid balancing. Doubly so if we start looking toward micro-grid deployments.
True... unless you e.g. drive your vehicle to work during the day... meaning it can't be used to help power your home (and/or capture/store energy from your solar panels, if you have them) during the day. V2L / V2H gives greater resilience etc, but I think having a home battery *as well* gives a lot more flexibility.
@@logicalChimp True, that could be so for people that work outside in daytime. But most travel to work and back is 20 mls or so, and loading can be done at work to. Coming home at peak hours, and use the huge EV battery when the sun sets. Also, many work at home or in shifts, or even are on pension. So, it would work for a large part of the population. Large enough to make sence to not invest in expansive Tesla walls but in an EV with V2E, or V2H.
The peak load in a house may exceed the 3.6kw that the V2L port in ionic5/ev6 supports (ionic5/ev6 in USA supports only 1.8kw) so putting batteries like Tesla power wall in addition to V2L will support those peak loads when the grid has an outage
@@dathes That is indeed the situation today. EV developement is still in its early days, and i could see a shift toward better V2G and V2H (or V2 everything) in the short future. Luckily we live in an country with no power outages of any significance. Last 10 years maybe 1 small one with a duration of a few minutes. For us it is more about saving cost then be prepared for outage.
Not sure why you reference 7kW Powerwall; ours is approx 13.5 kW. Agree that most EV’s have a far larger battery which could often be useful. I think a complex array of ‘solutions’ will emerge, not least because standards and requirements will vary between markets.
A relative small home battery in every household could remove the peak demand altogether, reduce the max current per household with al least 80%, reducing grid-losses and would make the grid much better manageable - it would almost pay for itself
All well and good, but as someone living with VTG, there is an elephant in the room... well, two. First, price, octopus charge 16p all day apart from 23.30 - 5.30 remember they have control of the VTG unit and it only outputs between 16.00 and 19.00 so VTG doesn't help at all during the day so to make this system work you also need a home battery. Second and the big problem. Physics. For VTG to work, the unit increases the voltage of your home. We already had a high grid voltage 245V due to the transformer being next door. With VTG, our voltage went up to 252 / 254v. This damaged many appliances in our home, and for some reason, the unit didn't alart anyone it was outputting such a high voltage. We have ended up rewiring our mains, including a voltage optimiser, to reduce our voltage to 230v ( 240v during the VTG session). I personally would recommend anyone installing a VTG unit. make sure you check your voltage first. It's not as simple as it all sounds.
Even if you only have V2H, it helps the grid by reducing the load at peak times. The house can get it's peak energy from the car instead of the grid. You don't have to have V2G for the grid to benefit from EVs.
I'm not sure people are fully considering the opportunity cost the private vehicle owner potentially suffers by actually using their vehicle under V2G scenarios. It's a lot like taking an unpaid day off work to go to the beach. In that case, you have the cost of the beach trip of course, but you also suffer the loss of income from the day off. In the V2G scenario, if you decide to actually use your vehicle in the time period of peak grid demand, you not only have the cost of the driving energy you will use, but you also suffer the loss of income by not being home connected to the grid and collecting the income from the export tariff. This is the conundrum when you "dual-purpose" the vehicle battery versus a dedicated home storage battery. This makes fleet vehicles (like school busses) ideal candidates for this purpose, but private vehicles not so much.
V2H or V2G which ever term one uses, the goverment dont have a clue about how this will work. I emailed the transport minister, and his reply was shocking, they have no ploicy, have no idea how to impliment it, have no guidance on installation equipemnt, (additional household electrical hardware maybe required). The response from the transport minister was V2G/V2H has nothing to do with the goverment ask your energy provider.
I thought V2G was more widespread and we were just behind in Aus. Was advised once it's approved in Aus - and apparently it's only being trialled by distributor in SA and not in other states yet - the bi-directional EV Charger Wallbox Quasar is $10k. Will be interesting to see if there's other V2G wall chargers on show at the FCL show in Sydney.
Great vid. We really should be getting V2H sorted out first. Many of the same benefits to the home and reducing demand on the grid without the additional complexity. Also given the number of comments here we need that conversation about battery degradation.
Completely agree that there are solutions here to manage demand. I have 10kWh battery storage in the attic and that certainly reduces reliance on high price grid energy. I am not yet sure about the cost case for the batteries as they seem expensive for doing just 'one job'. If that was my EV car instead, at least I could drive it about; plus a usable capacity of 60kWh or more would run the house for 4 days if needed. These are exciting times and I would like to see a government strategy to support great PV, EV, home battery and other renewable solutions.
Start with the people who are on the pointy edge of innovation. Start with people who have solar and an EV. There are hundreds of people that can gladly step up and produce power with their PV and charge their cars from THEIR pv AND send power to the grid. Maybe thousands. People who have invested in PV, home batteries, and EVs have all the hardware necessary to make V2G happen. The point is just to START and do V2G.
V2H would be the best for me and many others that can’t or don’t want a so called smart meter, generating your own by solar PV and storing in your EV. All of the offers of cheap rate tariffs are for smart meter properties only.
@@B0jangle5 trust, I don’t trust them (including the establishment) and giving them the ability to switch off my electricity remotely is a definite no. On the technical side we have appalling mobile signal here, it’s now over 12 months since the BP Pulse charger was fitted and I still can’t login, mind you BP Pulse have been totally useless.
It a nice value for the grid operators. And much better then home-batteries, grid locations with non li-ion is a more sustainable. Most aren't and won't be sold with v2g, because it ads a lot of cost the already high EV price. This episode also show the added cost of variable sources. It's more then the production cost. And variable renewables aren't the goal, sustainable energy grids are.
The minor hidden problem is that this will be a pyramid game in the beginning and in the end, nobody will make any money (not really a bad thing). Why? Well, if EVs help to shave off the peaks, peaks will get cheaper. And if they get cheaper, the less people will participate. As less people participate, it will get more expensive again, etc. After short time, the system will find equilibrium, where there will be so many EVs just casually plugged in, that the peak will no longer play any significant effect and we might even forget we ever had this problem.
We have a leaf, model 3 SR, 13kw solar array and powerwall2. As the global majority (by volume - like them or loath them) of new ev’s hitting the market are currently tesla - we really need them to come to the V2X party. I’m guessing they are too scared to because of cannibalising their own powerwall energy business. In my view this is shortsighted. Home battery is great for load shifting and power outage resiliency. Bigger batteries in the cars could cover bigger home peak loads but also support large V2G (with more capacity than their apparent favoured direction of virtual power plants from powerwall only). One of the technical issues for V2G is export gateway control and safety of power to the grid during grid outages. But Tesla already have this fixed with all powerwall installationS. All that is needed from Tesla is modification for bidirectional ac inverters either in the car or a wall box. The rest is software. It could be easy and rapidly scaleable. It seems they may be bringing V2L in cybertruck so hopefully that trickles to other models? Please think bigger Tesla. You could do great things for the sustainable energy future!
I think we need to think this through. I'll make it clear that I have a full EV and a solar/battery system at home, so am happy to reduce fossil fuel usage. However, the peaks seem to be when most EV owners would need to go to work or not have yet got home and may have a low state of charge. Also, they may need to take children to various activities after work. I can't see the government allowing paying more for the electricity than the user paid - they are already looking at ways to tax EV's more. I'm not convinced that this is a good thing for the consumer. Maybe car to house is a good option, but the power companies sucking out your energy whenever they feel like, is not something I would be happy about. I believe that they should be looking at modular reactors and a way of storing electricity. Surely it is better to buy electricity from those with solar panels and store it for peak times?
Lots of great information. I feel sad for how much longer it will take my country to grasp this concept. We're still arguing about how great coal is... Loved Roberts entrance 👌🤣
There are a few cars that use the same inverter for turning AC into DC for charging and DC into AC for driving their AC motors. These cars work reliably, so I don't think it's outrageous to require it. After all, what is the cost of a few relays added to the price of an entire car? Not a lot.
V2H or V2G or both. I think that we need both. The important thing is using all systems with batteries and generating electricity. Wind, solar , nuclear, hydro and so on.
Yes, so it is the design of the grid does not technically allow it and there is significant political inertial to allow it. It would be an energy revolution to be resisted!
Mhhm - what's the effect/impact of V2G on the battery warranty provided by the carmakers and the battery lifetime by the increased charging cycles? It this really feasible and does it really make sense to use a practically not replaceable battery for this purpose? Not sure at all.... and this is not covered in the video.
I was asked why there was so much fuss over Electric cars, vans and lorries having VTG ( Vehicle to Grid) capability ? Most EVs have a battery storage size of about 60kWh. Most EV owners have a cheap overnight tariff offered to them ( 9p v 32p kWh ). My home uses about 15kWh a day. If I charged up an EV overnight with cheap energy, with VTG I could use that stored energy to run my home all day, whilst only reducing the range of the car by a quarter (240 miles v 180 miles). If I want to use the energy for travel instead, I simply switch off the VTG facility via an app. If there is a power cut, I could run my home from my EV via VTG for 3 days. ( Only 3 days as the car will not allow VTG to pull more than ¾ of the capacity ) If you have a home battery and solar, then you could not only run your home and car off cheap rate electricity, but you could elect to sell your excess energy back to grid during peak demand times, making money and saving the planet at the same time. So that’s why there is such a fuss over EVs having VTG. Businesses could reduce their bills by using their vans and lorries as energy stores as well as transport systems.
1. There is no “off peak” here it is one rate $0.11kwh 24/7 2. Electric companies here buy back at $0.02kwh for uploaded vs the $0.11 for download. 3. Most home and auto insurers do not allow upload to grid because of the increased risk & liability. Those that do have much higher rates. 4. You are increasing the cycling of the battery, this affects the warranty, longevity, and value of the vehicle. 5. Energy costs are soaring and are highest amongst those switching to renewables. When the electric companies know we all have to charge at night to be able to get to work the rates will soar as they know you have no choice.
The issues are that the infrastructure to get the charge during the day are almost non existent (workplaces, car parks etc) let alone return it... I would love V2H as weekends would mean our household uses zero energy during the day, even in the winter... however, and it's a big however, the utility companies are going to find ways to monetise it in their favour, or just outright stealing it (our supplier is charging us for electricity we're not even using, and yes we're on a smart meter: OFGEM is almost useless) The fact is, all this Tech is not going to be used for our benefit, unless we live in the woods and separate ourselves from the grid (PV, hydro, wind etc), because they will just take the energy as you'll have no way to monitor it (Apps are open to manipulation, as our supplier is doing atm) and no way to enforce your Rights... A Utopian society is the aim, but a dystopian future of monitoring and control is the likely outcome...I speak as someone who tried to be part of the Indra Beta testing...
I have been talking this up for years all over the place. In 2000 I was trying to get people to take a serious look at this. Also I was doing the same thing with CNG from home. Buy your gas or run it through your mtr. Into your home and store it compressed in an underground or vault mounted tank on-site. Use it later in the winter during peak usage or through a generator at home when the power goes out from storms. Convert a small compact commuter car to run on CNG that you refill from your home storage. Granted this was long before Electric vehicles became viable. CNG is way less polluting than Gasoline or Diesel and in certain situations you could use RNG instead. I grew up on a farm and back in the 70's we were running converted tractors on LPG and capturing methane to run through a gas generator to help save on Electricity costs at that time. Carter was in office and it was horrible.
It likely to be a combination of both. I do foresee a future where grid licensing will have to come in, a standardize charge that we all pay to keep the national grid funded and operational.
An EV has a huge battery capable of driving a large car two hundred miles or more. Common sense alone tells me that some of that energy could be used for other purposes, such as supplying domestic appliances. We all know that the problem with renewables is that their variable supply depends on the variable nature of wind and sunshine. Inserting the storage and delivery capability of many EVs could help to ease these issues. The technology exists; what is needed is cooperation between manufacturers and the authorities.
06:41 "And for this I need to speak with an expert, Mike Schooling..." Hint: Turn on CC now if you want to understand what "Mike" is saying. His accent (Welsh?) is so thick you will catch only about 40 percent of what he is actually saying. Thank god for CC!
Seems like a good idea at first thought, but beware. They will give you stuff all money for your power. In Australia they have reduced the amount paid from 16.3c to as low as 3c per kWh in just 3 years. Years ago the payment was around 44c and for a small period of time just over 60 something cents per kWh. For me they will need to pay a reasonable amount per kWh or they get can get stuffed. Beware people.
In an optimistic world, this could help bring people closer together. Knowing that we are all contributing to a common good. And just decentralizing energy consumption would help reduce the need of mega projects like large scale power plants. I believe there have been studies of “What If” major cities would cover rooftops (both large and small) with solar panels. Cities like a New York would become that power plant. Couple that with EV parking within garages would be a great start to a better future. But I’m sure I’m stating the obvious. 😏😏😏
Another angle on this is for people who own a home battery, to ensure they run their home at the cheapest tariff rate, to be able to get into this scheme. Many people don't own a car at all let alone an EV and are just using a home battery for energy savings within the home. Being able to fully charge their battery overnight and then trickle back a set amount to the grid when it needs the excess power sounds like a plan. As well this might kick up a business where old EV batteries are reclaimed and used as home batteries as a cheaper alternative to buying a brand new battery for the purpose.
I have a EV and a CCS charger. I wnat V2H, and by extension V2G. I don't really care who enables this: CCS standards body, EV manufacturer or home charger manufacturer; but it really needs to be ssoner rather than later. Please can you rase this at each of your 2023 FCL shows so that V2H & V2G gets some more exposure? Good video on an important topic, thanks.
My goodness that chap spoke fast.. OK so taking a step back V2G is about taking an industrial level number of batteries and providing a physical and commercial infrastructure that enables the owners (car drivers) to be able to use the tiny (in the scheme of things) batteries in their cars to club together with millions of other car owners to essentially provide a massive storage facility for a country. It's a great idea (and I thought that Tesla were heading down that path as they are a registered utility company in the UK). Well I hope it works out. I have my 11 year old solar array (8.5Kw) and a near 2 year old Tesla Powerwall (wish I'd done that earlier- doubled the amount of solar I use). Plug-in hybrid on it's way ... full EV order cancelled as the Oct 2021 order became (maybe) April 2023 delivery... not willing to buy into 3 year old battery tech.
school buses in US, on V2G, would be interesting they came with solar in their huge roof, charging while parked during the day waiting for afternoon journey
Actually, up to a point it will lower prices... because the grid *has to pay* to switch off some power generators (to reduce supply low enough to match the low demand). Increasing off-peak demand means the grid no longer has to pay that extra cost, making power cheaper (provided they pass some of those savings on). Grid price is determined by the most expensive generation cost, plus any disconnection fees... renewable is cheap, it's only when demand rises to the point that 'expensive' peaker plants (running on gas or oil) fire up that prices start rising with demand.
@@logicalChimp at some point...up to a point, exactly. having enough renewable energy with sufficient battery storage for normal situations and base generation for unusual times is key. I'd love to have a reasonable EV with V to X to complement my solar!
but then if there are millions of EV's charging at off-peak rates, then the oil refineries will no longer be taking electricity from the grid in the same amount as previously, so there ought to be plenty of grid capacity...... We aren't going to need millions of gallons of petrol and diesel every day *and* EV's as well, are we?
@@Brian-om2hh oil refineries will be using less and less electricity to sustain ICE vehicles 24/7! Maybe there are enough off peak hours vs. 4-9pm peak hours to spread out all EV charging so that any off peak charging is usually less than peak. When most transportation transitions to electric, I'm assuming that it will require several times more juice than all homes. If most homes go all electric, then more balanced. With all this pressure on the grid, there'd better be a reliable (at least short term, longer than batteries) backup!!
The "Grid" is a private company in the UK without competition that makes £1 billion turnover pa. Even with an EV, you're going to face a connection fee. Goverments tax what people use the most.
I read recently that there are several US states that have already legislated against private owners selling electricity back. Sponsored by the generating companies... It makes absolute sense to use the large vehicle batteries as short term storage for the grid. The technical issues are relatively small. Getting all the stakeholders onboard is the challenge. Law makers need to see the big picture not just the lobbyists money. Don't mind me just old and full of cynicism...
A big question is how will the vehicle manufacturer address battery warranty. Currently typically 8 years / 160000 km, this is based on a number of cycles, not allowing for any additional use of the battery, such as V2G. I am thinking of Tesla which has the biggest population of vehicles out there and probably rather sell us more Powerwalls than let us do V2G.
Possibly the most underrated potential of EVs.
You do know what governments/companies will do when they figure this out, milk it or tax it dry till there's no more use for it
I'm against it, it's better to buy a dedicated home battery that is way cheaper than ruining the BEV's battery worth €20-40,000 alone.
If I would buy a used EV in the future I want a guarantee that it hasn't been used V2G/anything.
@@_TrueDesire_ having seen other videos on the subject, it has been suggested that the research is showing ev batteries actually benefit from charging and then slowly releasing the energy back to the grid or home.
@@_TrueDesire_ also batteries don’t cost that much and will cost less in the future
@@_TrueDesire_ I think you need to look into this more deeply. I don't think your claim is anywhere near correct. Just over 21,000 british pounds will buy you a complete Aptera with 25 kWh battery and when V2G is standardized, make it an even better value proposition than purchasing a Powerwall, for instance.
Great video! The one thing missing was discussion of battery degradation. Li ion battery degradation is not as simple as the number of cycles, and the two things that cause the most degradation are: 1. rapid charging (or rapid discharging) while the battery is too hot or cold, and 2. charging up to 100% (or discharging down to 0%) and waiting there.
Point #1 can be easily addressed: the 7kW that single-phase infrastructure in the UK can handle is child's play for an EV battery. They've got >100kW motors and can often rapid charge at >100kW too, so 7kW is nothing, even when very cold or hot. As for point #2, this is why some EVs have an option to charge only up to 80%. Some don't (like my Nissan Leaf), so plugging in overnight will probably be a very-small bad time for the battery, as it charges up as high as it can. V2X systems have to have a complex negotiation (like a rapid charger, which is how the charger knows the battery's state of charge) and the software platforms backing bidirectional chargers usually keep the battery between 20% and 80% by default (with the options to charge up to 100% if requested). This is what OVO and Octopus did with their trials.
I've had a couple of chats with Mike at Fully Charged Live. He's a great guy, but I think he's being a bit conservative with AC V2G's prospects. A unidirectional on-board charger is already kitted up with 1 diode and 1 transistor per phase leg (2 diodes and 2 transistors for single-phase, 3 diodes and 3 transistors for 3-phase). This forms a so-called 'totem pole' active front end, steadying the >2kW power draw (there is also a 'bridged conventional' layout, but this needs a load of extra diodes so I doubt any automakers are using it). The bidirectional form of the totem pole converter swaps the diodes for transistors and... that's about it! It's the same layout as a DC-to-AC inverter. You need to update the controller so that it can run all 4 or 6 of the transistors in both modes, and make sure that the DC-to-DC stage is also bidirectional but, fundamentally, there are only a few components that need swapping for ones that are barely more expensive. Hyundai appear to have used exactly this solution in the Ioniq 5 and 6, Kia EV6 and Genesis EVs. That V2L function is from a bidirectional on-board charger! Chipmakers (the end I approached this from) are super-keen to get their SiC MOSFETs into this application, and already sell 6.6kW bidirectional charger demo units. The biggest impediment is having to redesign your on-board charger. Hyundai bit the bullet, and seem to be reaping the benefits. I really hope that the on-board charger of 2030 is a bidirectional 22kW 3-phase charger. Hyundai have proved that bidirectional is possible and Renault have proven that 22kW is possible.
If you use DC V2G, you're no longer talking about swapping a handful of diodes for transistors, you've got to build the whole thing from scratch. The Wallbox Quasar costs about £6000, and apparently has some issues with overheating, even after all that engineering and hardware. For a low(ish)-power 7kW home wallbox, that's much too expensive for mass deployment. Many of the latest AC home charge points (updated to comply with new UK government regulations) already support AC V2G communications (look for 'ISO 15118 ready', this is the protocol AC V2G and CCS V2G are using), making AC V2G much more effective at home. Where I see DC V2G being successful is in commercial fleets and/or anywhere there are 22kW or 50kW DC chargers. If you're looking for 22kW or 50kW charging (maybe at a delivery van depot, or for a heavier bus or lorry fleet to charge overnight), you'll probably want to make that DC anyway, so why not upgrade that unidirectional charger to bidirectional? As discussed above, the cost difference is not large.
As you might be able to tell, I am *super enthusiastic* about V2G. With V2G, load peaks will no longer be a thing, and it solves the intermittency of solar power pretty much completely. I would recommend anyone getting a Hyundai, Kia or Genesis EV to add V2L - they're only a dealership software update away from AC V2H and V2G. I will be watching Volvo/Polestar and Volkswagen's bidirectional developments with bated breath. And I really, really hope that home V2G will be online by next winter. It needs some organisational co-operation, but all the pieces are there and ready to put together! I can't wait!
Awesome comment!! 👏👏
Great comment. MG also do V2L, to add to the list.
Thanks, that's very informative. It would be great to make more use of the batteries in my EVs, which spend most of their life doing nothing. And if it was done via the AC type 2 connector, as you say I can't imagine it doing the car batteries any harm.
Cycle counts are still a significant part of battery degradation and I’d be surprised owners will want to risk that with their very expensive vehicle batteries.
Current Lithium Ion batteries in use are not suitable for daily grid cyclic usage; maybe if you only permit a maximum of 10-20% use but then that limit fhe overall benefits this is meant to provide.
It will be interesting to see how vehicle manufacturers state their battery warranties with respect to this usage. I bet they will add a cycle limit.
Didn't VW announce that their ID3 77kw would be a software upgrade away from V2X?
We’ve been holding off from buying an EV for over a year now, waiting for V2G to become available. I just wish they’d get on with it….!
Market speculators say no
Why wait?
Our small family business brought our first EV in NZ 5.5 years ago. Cost us $18000 of which we claimed GST and deprecation for the first 3 years, now claiming milage.
To date the EV has saved us $24700 on fuel, $2500 on maintenance and claimed so far $22300 on deprecation and milage. That EV has made/saved us $31,500!
If we were to buy privately then we would had still not only paid off the EV, it would had still made/saved extra $9200 over keeping existing petrol car or buying a petrol car at same price.
5.5 years on the battery has degraded to 77% from 94% which is approximately a 30km range decrease, but still within our working day travel requirements.
We are looking to upgrade the battery next year which is approximately $23000 for a 40kWh liquid cooled new replacement from EV Enhanced, which will give us 3x the range but since were already $31,500 in "profit" the battery replacement will had already been paid for. Why upgrade over buying another one is purely because its over $40,000 for the similar battery/range, plus there's nothing wrong mechanically with our current EV.
By far the best decision of a purchase and yes we were skeptical and thought the range would be a hinderance etc.. but glad we didn't wait.
@@spaceman7915 Thanks for providing your helpful testimony supported with real life data. We need more of this.
Don’t wait… get that as a next car…
Would imagine that V2H would always have the least transmission losses, so preferable to V2G
I guess if it's enabled to do both but prioritise your home use, and does grid balancing with excess, then both win :)
V2H is great for some people, but is not scalable to the entire population. Planning regulations increasingly prioritize higher density housing for environmental reasons. This will mean more families living in apartments, which will mean less roof space per person.
The physics of VTG mean that the current from the EV will flow ‘downhill’ to the closest demand, your own or neighbouring homes, so grid losses wouldn’t feature.
Speaking from experience V2H is likely to be the future. It has revolutionised how we are able to use energy in our house.
I agree.. V2H could be a substantial part of the national battery in the UK. May I ask how you got access to V2H?
Would love to have V2H - the scale of an EV battery compared to a home ESS is vast in comparison - only downside would be when the car is actually away and being used 😬
When I first installed my solar a year ago my plan was to compliment that with an EV to store the excess and feed it back to my house at night. I assumed it would be a standard feature but I've since learned it's not even an option yet. Clearly it's the path forward.
Ev manufacturers have been saying it is an option since 2012, but no one is actually doing it. I don't know why.
you can make any ev into v2g in a ghetto diy way, get a generator and make something like a dyno for your car and just push the accelerator pedal in your car
lol
I know you could make it more elegant but at least you dont have to modify the car
Very good video presenter/host, storyline and editing. More of this please!!
Of course the other benefit of V2G not mentioned on the video is being self sufficient in electricity for short periods. Being able to power your home for a few hours during a power cut is a huge benefit. I have an Ioniq 5 and am able to do V2H with a long extension lead and it’s a great benefit.
Plugging in to an off-grid cabin and living off your car like that is a brilliant thought and a scenario I might put into a novel one day.
Just having a V2G capable car connected to your house will NOT provide any power to your home during an outage - in the UK at least - unless you also invest in some modifications to your fixed electrical installation to accommodate local generation in the same way as you would for a PV+battery system or a diesel generator. It CAN be done, it just isn't as straightforward as having a V2H or V2G car plugged in.
@@protectiongeek If it becomes a chief point of focus then mass scale implementations will default on V2G setups with mass produced and ultimately simplified cost reduced equipment.
@@johnknight9150 hmmm IF indeed. There's no doubt that the number of new cars on the road that are EVs is increasing at quite a rate, which is already causing problems of supply (of cars, not electricity). Even if we assume that governments will actually stop the sale of ICE vehicles from, say, 2030, the time to 'mass scale implementations' could be another 8 to 10 years. There are just over 28 million homes in the UK and about 75% of them have at least one car so I'm not sure who will be applying the implementation in something like 1.2 million homes per year between now and 2040.
@@protectiongeek Yes "if" was the key point to that reply. I'm not saying that's what will happen, but it would make good sense.
Here is my Quandary living in Australia: I own solar panels and have for a few years now, I was initially getting 10 cents per kWh I was providing to the grid, this meant my electricity bill went from $1000 per quarter to less than $200 per quarter and most of that bill was the connection and supply charge. Now I am getting 4 cents per kWh and my bill has now doubled to over $400 per quarter, all the while all energy costs are rising across the board so I am at a loss to understand how my rebate has done the reverse. Further it is in the government's best interest for me to pay higher prices as they collect more in the way of GST (goods and service tax). Now they are working on a solar export tax, that is they want to charge me for supplying them with my excess generated power. So looking forward I believe the option best suited to my situation is to store my own generated power and disconnect from the grid entirely. Now who do you suppose is going to benefit from this decision I am sure many other solar owners are going to be considering this approach. I promise you that the extreme wealth of the oil and mining are not going down without one hell of a fight. In this country our political parties are funded by donations and those donations talk big time.
On-site use of PV-generated electricity needs to be the highest priority. There are utilities that provide even less than 4 OZ cents per kWh. There are at least three loads that everyone should consider defecting from the grid, and powering with direct current, straight off their panels: PV-->domestic hot water is the easiest since you already own the storage tank. PV-->space heat might apply, depending on the season and where you live. PV-->EV is an advanced DIY project but can be run from the same 180v- 250V PV array that powers one's water heater or space heater. The first two are simple PWM controllers. Charging an EV with DC off the same PV array requires a boost-mode DC-DC converter. These three tasks are performed with PV power that isn't even connected to the grid. It's none of their business yet it still reduces your purchases from the utility by the retail cost of electricity.
Good vid. I've had solar since 2012. 100kWh across two EVs in the garage. ASHP. So desperate for V2H/G. Have Ioniq 5 with V2L so already has the DC/AC converter. At FCL last year I asked all the charger manufacturers about their V2G development - all said at least 2 years away. And Myenergi (maker of my Zappi charger) actually said there was no demand 🙄 So yes please - urgently needed. Keep up the good work
Julian - I got a sparky to wire up my Kia EV6 to my house - via a physical transfer switch to ensure I cant feed back to grid if supply work is taking place. The 3.6kw inverter on my Kia will run all except oven/induction hob, so for background usage outside of cheap rate (0030-0430). Nowhere near as slick as a V2H wall charger - I didnt get onto the Indra trial - but basic V2H from existing V2L cars (Kia, Hyundai, MG and I think VW shortly). Requires a physical disconnect from grid but allows me to lead shift to Octopus cheap rate electric. Mark
@@markharrison4808 brilliant. Thank you Mark. I had wondered this? I’d even talked to my neighbourhood electrician, who was going away to investigate. But all went quiet. What happens when you reach the 3.6kW output? We don’t get many power outages and in fact Western Power are putting in another spur for resilience for our Estate supply. So it could keep our home running for almost 3 days. But not if the ASHP is required in Winter. But great to know you have a solution
If the house asks for more than 3.6kw the car objects and cuts the power. And the house goes off. As I say not a perfect solution, but a simple way to run off a 60-70kw battery up to 3ish kw. M
Fantastic idea, shame that many/most people will find this impossible due to issues with the District Network Operators (DNO). These are the people who have to give you permission to connect to the grid. I live in a 10 year old house 75m from the local SSEN substation. I have 8kWp solar and CANNOT add any additional export capability. I've had batteries (Tesla) fitted and these have had to be set to zero export, and getting that sorted was a struggle. The only way around this is to install a new cable all the way from my house to the substation - bargain at £25,000 (estimated - I'd have to sign up to pay what it costs!). With these issues I can't see how this will gain much penetration in the UK, at least at a domestic level.
I am just installing 12.6kWp and after paying Northern Powergrid £450 they will only allow 3.6kWp!! They sight high grid voltage but when I checked in middle of day it was 237 which is low in my book. This is a big farmhouse and yet only has a 80A incoming fuse and now NPG want £660 to decide if its possible to give a 100A fuse?!! Someone needs to get a grip of these G100 export limitations before it kills a whole load of potential jobs off and or wastes a load of capacity.
At last! Someone who knows what infrastructure is and has also, unfortunately, has experience of what is required to allow us to enable all of this clever stuff.
Your 'issues' are not with the DNO; they are simply ensuring that your installation - including any potential exported energy - is operated according to national engineering recommendations. Most people won't find export *impossible* but what they may find is that they can't always export all the energy they generate when they want to depending on where they are on the network and the electrical characteristics of the local network.
Although it would cost a bit, you could commission an electrical engineer to carry out an independent assessment of your connection to the DNO network to make sure that they haven't made an error. One criticism that _could_ be levelled at the industry is that those doing the G99/G100 assessments are not necessarily qualified to do so. In my 32 plus years as a DNO engineer, I witnessed this decline over many years. Good luck.
One concern for me is that wherever there is “customer savings”, there are losses for the likes of BP and Shell. Which means they’ll do everything in their power to slow down this sort of progress. Do we think they will?
Probably, but they might diversify and try to get in on the act themselves, possibly with aggressive business practices. (If you can't beat 'em...)
We can be sure that the energy retailers will be ensuring they make as much profit as they can. Even if they aren't generating the electricity they will be trying to ensure they make money by clipping the ticket every time EV owners supplement the grid by taking a cut of the difference between rates which are paid.
@@Hubris2 There has to be a financial incentive for it to work. Suppliers get to balance demand meaning they don't need as much spare capacity to deal with peak demand. Customers can reduce their electricity bills. So, it could be a win win situation if done correctly. However will require a significant investment to be made to make it work. As a minimum, every house or car will need to be wired to do it. An inverter in car or house required plus smart metering in the home and software and possibly hardware in the car.
I’ve been part of the Octopus Energy/Octopus EV Powerloop V2G trial. My car is plugged in and powering the house and exporting to the grid as I write. I love it I have to say - from approx 16:30-20:30 (depending on how much % is in the battery) each eve the house is powered by the car. I get credit on my tariff every month for the energy exported from the car. What we need though more cars able to do it. For the trial I’ve been leasing a Leaf from Octopus EV - but that lease comes to an end in a year. At that point it’s likely we’ll need a different car (for personal household circumstances we need something a little bigger) - but that would mean no more V2G. We really need CCS and more cars able to do this now!
Nope. There will always be a limit to the amount you can export. It can only be the equivalent of a bit of load shedding on behalf of you neighbours. The grid must always be unidirectional to your house for safety and equipment. The switches and transformers only work with power flowing one way - towards you. It is a short term power play while the grid is in transition.
The glamorous assistant Robert completes the episode! This is something I will share with family members who read just enough to be dangerous ("EVs will harm the grid!") This is very accessible for a lot of us Yanks.
I have been on the OVO V2G trial since July 2019 and have exported over 18MWh in that time. I found that it covered my electricity usage for home and car completely up until the energy rate hike in recent times and now is just over breakeven. My car remains plugged in when at home and the software looks after the rest. I was concerned about battery degradation but need not have been. What I found is that there was no significant degradation and may well have been a positive for battery health. Going forward I agree with Mike its now about standardisation. My V2G works fine on CHADEMO and the Nissan Leaf but there are too many EV's out there without the capability which will stall further roll outs of infrastructure.
I do not have Solar unfortunately due to protection orders on trees that cast shadows on my roof. It was in looking for other solutions that attracted me to the V2G trial by OVO which I first saw at the first Fully Charged Live show. Keep up the great work.
I can't wait for this to roll out in full, I saw this idea many years ago and have been using this idea to help converting people to the idea of an EV. My Tesla Powerwall is 13.5kWh, so for my 64kWh EV battery this is not a lot, so could easily power my home in the evening or send power to the grid, then charge up again overnight. A great video!
Would be great if older EVs could be retrofitted with V2G/V2X.
CHAdeMO is a real bonus ....
It is still the only original bi directional as standard vehicle interface
You can plug a V2L ( Vehicle to Load) cable and power most domestic appliances up to max 4 KW from the traction battery
We have been using our 2014 mitsi PHEV to power our of grid caravan trouble free last 5-6 years, the 12 KW battery lasts all weekend between charges , but the game changer with the Mitsi PHEV is when stationery in charge mode ( to recharge traction battery) it's quieter & more fuel efficient than our 10 hp honda generator 🤠👍
Where can you get a Chademo V2L cable from, I thought you needed a special bi-directional charger. 4:25 I want this for my Nissan Leaf!
@@MD-gx9kj got mine from Alibaba 4-5 years ago CHAdeMO V2L 👍
@@fenflyer thanks 👍😁
@@MD-gx9kj only supposed to be suitable for 3-4 kwh short cycle power take off , from vehicle inverter ( but we had 0% problem using it all week off grid) the CHAdeMO power take off standalone inverters are for 4-8kwh sustainable load 🙄
Imagine airport parking lots, and work lots filled with these, and those facilities using rooftop solar to get all their electricity. True distributed power opportunities. It will be remarkable once this takes up...
I have recently been involved with testing one of these 2 way power units for a major car manufacturer that they are intending to fit across their range of electric vehicles to enable them to back feed the grid. One of the issues that I have not seen discussed anywhere is the premature aging of the battery pack caused by the increased number of charge cycles it will undergo, possibly 10 to 20 over night in areas where the main grid is a bit soft due to its capacity. In some locations that suffer from brownouts or are not close to a generating system may not have very good power regulation and the car battery would attempt to smooth the fluctuations out.
Ten to twenty cycles in a night?!
How much power do you think we’re talking about?
@@JohnR31415 They are part cycles maybe only a few percent each time
@@andrewhill1068 that is no different to regen braking. You add hundreds of those a day and there is no adverse effect.
Longevity of the battery pack is in part governed by the chemistry used. Lithium iron phosphate batteries are expected to more than double the numbers of cycles achievable with Li-on.
Your point that the battery longevity is a valid one, but a 'cycle' is from fully empty, to fully charged and back to empty again, so that's not happening 20x per night. But - how will a car manufacturer guarantee their battery? Today 'miles' is an indicator or 'charging', but theoretically in the future we might have a car with zero miles on it, but where the battery has been cycled many, many times. Maybe the manufacturers have to start guaranteeing their batteries based on number of 'virtual' cycles or some such.
this would be the last piece of the puzzle for me. already having 8KW solar, and a 13.5KW Tesla power wall 2, plus Nissan leaf. It would enable me to be largely self sufficient most of the year and only use cheap overnight rates during the winter. Currently the battery is covering about 12 hours a day and then runs out, leaving me to pay peak rate import tariff.
Here is a quick tip for anyone with off peak tariffs. I looked last week at all of my electric appliances, dishwasher, washing machine and dryer and went looking on the net for the instructions to see if any of them support delay start. Turns out they all did, we have now moved all of our usage into the cheap overnight rates. Could kick myself for not thinking of this earlier. cheers for the video and keep up the great work.
I'm currently waiting to hear if our home had been accepted for Indras new V2H trial. This could really help us reduce costs and remove our home from the peak grid load.
It can't come soon enough, watching our smart meter everyday isn't pleasant viewing right now.
hope you get it. I only spotted the new trial six days after the latest round closed and was gutted. I have had my Nissan leaf for two years specifically for its V2H capability. As interim steps, I have just had fitted a Tesla power wall and 8KW solar with a zappi charger. made a huge difference, but the battery is not big enough to last the entire day, and its frustrating that I have another 40KW battery sat next to my house that I cannot take energy from when I need it. Will continue to wait with interest.
@J Uttley Shame you missed out, we're going to have to pay £1600 towards the hardware if we do get selected. If that price is reflective of the retail cost then maybe in the not too distant future it'll be viable for mass market.
It's exciting tech and i hope in the future it'll play a big part of levelling grid load and reducing costs for consumers.
Is the UK grid up to it? Can the grid support V2G/H? Which energy providers are on-board? Octopus seems to be with three car supported by their tariff. Is that a good choice for the consummers? Which contarctors can install the relevant equipment to make it happen? And will they have to be MCS certified? Which is even more expense. I can find only one bi-directional charger avalable in the UK at over 4k uninstalled. Is that cost possitive? And thats just the charger. V2G/H has been talked about since Fucashima 2012 and more widly in the West since 2018. So where are we with this? The car manufactures are scared silly about this becasue of their warrenties, so which car OEM is oppenly backing V2G/H and is willing to garantee the grids use of their warentied batteries?
One problem area you didn't touch on was the impact in the batteries and how a vehicle manufacturers warranty might be impacted. For instance, if most manufacturers offer an 8-year, 100k miles warranty (based on average miles driven and therefore an average charging pattern, and therefore battery cyclcles), then how would this change when the vehicle manufacturer doesn't know how often you will cycle your battery (which could move from once per week, to once per day).
May just change the verbiage from miles to watt hours. Power applications are typically less stressful on the battery than driving, so while cycle life is affected it's not exactly the equivalent of driving more.
There will be two types of grid in the future. The National Grid, in the UK as now, and then local "micro" grids. Also instead of V2G, it will to S2G (storage to grid) , where home, vehicle and workplace batteries are used to smooth energy supply. We will need a lot more electricity generated (Oxford Low Carbon Hub reckon on 3 times the current amount), and the National Grid can't be upgraded fast enough to cope. So the answer will be local generation, and storage, for local use. Community-based projects will drive this new model.
I would only pass electric back to the grid if I had a surplus, if I had an expensive solar set-up and battery and this would require sunshine and warmth here in the far north of England.
Octopus saving sessions are great and shows how so many ones can act to save a lot for many.
Very interesting and informative video. Imogen is the best! I also enjoyed Robert's interjections.....
Yes that was useful. A good technique in clarifying, reinforcing and supplementing the article.
EVTEC is the only company today that already sells a charging station to the market which is working with the CCS standard.
The Honda E in combination with the "sospeso&charge" charging station from EVTEC is possible to access the huge potential of rolling batteries.
PLEASE dont take this the wrong way. I love your channel an everyone has the right to live there lidf they please. The problem is, as I have been watching the channel for so long it has now became tought to ignore. Robert, please take of yourself and watch what you are eating and how much you are doing activity wise. I am sorry, this is incrediby personal, but I really value this channel and I only wish the best for you all.
Just seen this comment by chance, I am very touched by your concern. I can only reassure you that I am indeed looking after myself, I am probably as fit now as any 67 year old, I assume you are referring to my weight, a curse for the over 60's, but I have recently lost weight and am exercising a great deal, every day. I'll be around for a while.
I think smart charging that allows users to select what % of their battery they want to be used for powering a home/grid, how many miles they intend to drive, and something that shows what they would make from giving back to the grid for various %'s dedicated to this purpose, would be phenomenal for EV and home owners, and the a massive boost to the grid!
That second contentious point - the thing that turns AC into DC is not an inverter. An inverter, as the name suggests, turns direct current into alternating current. Not the other way around.
A classic example of how "light touch" and "less red tape" will slow progress so a clear central strategy is needed. Also, a key point at the end, ie how this is great for wealthy house and car owners but unavailable for many.
The major hangup I see with such strategies is the lifespan of the battery. Would this increase in charge/discharge cycles make the battery have a shorter life, thereby foisting the cost of replacing this grid storage onto the vehicle owner? I think for this to work, we need some sort of equivalent reimbursement scheme that compensates people for the lifespan toll such usage takes on their car's battery. That, and we need MUCH more robust battery recycling infrastructure, because all this added load on these batteries will mean we need more replacements, more often. This means we need to make sure we're not just offsetting emissions to battery production. It's absolutely essential we get battery recycling up to an acceptable level, if we want this to work.
LiFePO4 batteries also support much more cycling for the same battery degradation.
Average annual distance cars drive is 12000km a year. Which is about 5kWh a day of driving. With an average EV battery of 60kWh you could easily use 20kWh to send back to the grid. However total ownership of your own grid is going to be far superior. No more corporations sucking you dry.
IONIQ 5 actually has a bi-directional onboard charger, that is currently dumbed-down in firmware. All we need is software update to make it work. And some legal regulation of course.
Theoretically most Nissan Leaf's have it.
@@AttilaTheHun333333 ioniq 5 is not theoretical, the inverter actually has the needed hardware. It already offers V2L on one of phases in reverse, while other phases are disabled in firmware.
Those 25 cars that are being tested with V2G are only "modified" in software.
So once legal stuff is in place, I can see hyundai issuing a software patch. Or they will only enable it in new model, to make you buy it.
@@circuitdotlt
Sure, Leaf Owners are waiting for V2G for how many years now, with their Vehicles capable of it in hardware?
It doesn't matter if the hurtles are real or in the legal details...they are there.
A Really good, clear presentation. Thank you. VTH seems to me to be the optimum, with no transmission losses or infrastructure costs. VTG however, will help balance & clean up the grid, and is suitable for those without driveways or deep pockets.
In March 2022 I had a 35 panel solar array installed (JoJu Solar, thanks Robert) and this has been a great success. I anticipate payback over five years. I didn't go for a home battery because I would like a V2H or V2G electric car. I can't justify spending £40k on a car unless there are benefits greater than just having an electric vehicle. V2H or V2G would effectively offer a discount on the car equivalent to what I would save by not having to purchase a house battery. As this video makes clear the industry is not quite where I need it to be to make my first venture into electric cars. My trusty 10 year old VW Golf will have to keep going until it is, which is a shame.
“And were already kind of used to this…” and then proceeds to list time of day tariffs and a bunch of other stuff that I’ve never experienced, LOL. I’m jealous, though, I’d love to “gamify” my electricity bill like that! I’d love to see how low I could get my hydro bill by using smart appliances, etc.
Brilliant interview!
CHAdeMO is a real bonus ....
It is still the only original bi directional as standard vehicle interface
You can plug a V2L ( Vehicle to Load) cable and power most domestic appliances up to max 4 KW from the traction battery
We have been using our 2014 mitsi PHEV to power our of grid caravan trouble free last 5-6 years, the 12 KW battery lasts all weekend between charges , but the game changer with the Mitsi PHEV is when stationery in charge mode ( to recharge traction battery) it's quieter & more fuel efficient than our 10 hp honda generator 🤠👍
I’ve been lucky to have had V2G and then V2H for around 3.5 years now and convinced this is a technology that is a no brainer. Batteries are expensive and should be maximised as an asset. I’ve saved thousands of pounds and significant amount of carbon. My battery degradation is non existent from what I can tell. Just wish the legislation was sorted and ev manufactures (Elon musk is guilty!) are forced to deploy this.
Very informative episode, Imogen! I've commented in Patreon.
Good video! Recently I switched to an all electric ground source heat pump that - with current low temperatures - consumes approx. 18kWh/day. If it is a sunny day, my 11kWp solar can contribute, but the grid usually has to supplement a substantial share in these darker winter days. If my Kona was V2G is could provide some of the energy from its 64kWh battery, but not for long, considering the limited nr. of sun hours in the winter.
Having said that, new battery technologies, such as graphene/aluminium from the Graphene Manufacturing Group (Australia), will substantially increase the charging speed (like 70x!) as well as the energy density (like +50%). Hence allowing charging 'in a flash' when supply is high. Combine this with wireless charging that enables ubiquitous charging (traffic light, parking lots, lamp posts) , and the current way of charging an EV (cable & wait time) quickly looks antique. I see a bright future!
Another informative and well presented video!
I agree about homes with solar PV and home batteries choosing to use as much of their solar power as possible in their home and augmenting this with cheap rate electricity from the grid to charge up their batteries at night. This is what I'm doing and of course if more people adopt this method so the demand on the grid at peak times will reduce.
I do agree that V2G has to be the right solution in the longer term though and can only hope that EV manufacturers are willing to work closely with the National Grid in the UK, (and equivalent authorities in other countries), to bring this into being.
V2G might make more sense for multi-unit dwellings like apartment buildings and condos where any given individual doesn't have their own driveway, or roof for solar. For people with their own homes & solar setups, the house battery would likely be the better focal point for any grid balancing. Doubly so if we start looking toward micro-grid deployments.
I would have thought, V2E was standard in every EV by now.
Why buy a 7kWh Tesla powerwalll when you have over 40kWh or more in your EV?
True... unless you e.g. drive your vehicle to work during the day... meaning it can't be used to help power your home (and/or capture/store energy from your solar panels, if you have them) during the day. V2L / V2H gives greater resilience etc, but I think having a home battery *as well* gives a lot more flexibility.
@@logicalChimp True, that could be so for people that work outside in daytime.
But most travel to work and back is 20 mls or so, and loading can be done at work to. Coming home at peak hours, and use the huge EV battery when the sun sets.
Also, many work at home or in shifts, or even are on pension. So, it would work for a large part of the population.
Large enough to make sence to not invest in expansive Tesla walls but in an EV with V2E, or V2H.
The peak load in a house may exceed the 3.6kw that the V2L port in ionic5/ev6 supports (ionic5/ev6 in USA supports only 1.8kw) so putting batteries like Tesla power wall in addition to V2L will support those peak loads when the grid has an outage
@@dathes That is indeed the situation today. EV developement is still in its early days, and i could see a shift toward better V2G and V2H (or V2 everything) in the short future. Luckily we live in an country with no power outages of any significance. Last 10 years maybe 1 small one with a duration of a few minutes.
For us it is more about saving cost then be prepared for outage.
Not sure why you reference 7kW Powerwall; ours is approx 13.5 kW. Agree that most EV’s have a far larger battery which could often be useful. I think a complex array of ‘solutions’ will emerge, not least because standards and requirements will vary between markets.
A relative small home battery in every household could remove the peak demand altogether, reduce the max current per household with al least 80%, reducing grid-losses and would make the grid much better manageable - it would almost pay for itself
All well and good, but as someone living with VTG, there is an elephant in the room... well, two.
First, price, octopus charge 16p all day apart from 23.30 - 5.30 remember they have control of the VTG unit and it only outputs between 16.00 and 19.00 so VTG doesn't help at all during the day so to make this system work you also need a home battery.
Second and the big problem. Physics. For VTG to work, the unit increases the voltage of your home. We already had a high grid voltage 245V due to the transformer being next door. With VTG, our voltage went up to 252 / 254v. This damaged many appliances in our home, and for some reason, the unit didn't alart anyone it was outputting such a high voltage. We have ended up rewiring our mains, including a voltage optimiser, to reduce our voltage to 230v ( 240v during the VTG session). I personally would recommend anyone installing a VTG unit. make sure you check your voltage first. It's not as simple as it all sounds.
Yes, yes, everybody should be talking about this.
Even if you only have V2H, it helps the grid by reducing the load at peak times. The house can get it's peak energy from the car instead of the grid. You don't have to have V2G for the grid to benefit from EVs.
I'm not sure people are fully considering the opportunity cost the private vehicle owner potentially suffers by actually using their vehicle under V2G scenarios. It's a lot like taking an unpaid day off work to go to the beach. In that case, you have the cost of the beach trip of course, but you also suffer the loss of income from the day off. In the V2G scenario, if you decide to actually use your vehicle in the time period of peak grid demand, you not only have the cost of the driving energy you will use, but you also suffer the loss of income by not being home connected to the grid and collecting the income from the export tariff. This is the conundrum when you "dual-purpose" the vehicle battery versus a dedicated home storage battery. This makes fleet vehicles (like school busses) ideal candidates for this purpose, but private vehicles not so much.
V2H or V2G which ever term one uses, the goverment dont have a clue about how this will work. I emailed the transport minister, and his reply was shocking, they have no ploicy, have no idea how to impliment it, have no guidance on installation equipemnt, (additional household electrical hardware maybe required). The response from the transport minister was V2G/V2H has nothing to do with the goverment ask your energy provider.
Very well done all. A well researched formulated and presented video that was informative as well as entertaining. More like this please.
I thought V2G was more widespread and we were just behind in Aus. Was advised once it's approved in Aus - and apparently it's only being trialled by distributor in SA and not in other states yet - the bi-directional EV Charger Wallbox Quasar is $10k. Will be interesting to see if there's other V2G wall chargers on show at the FCL show in Sydney.
Great vid. We really should be getting V2H sorted out first. Many of the same benefits to the home and reducing demand on the grid without the additional complexity. Also given the number of comments here we need that conversation about battery degradation.
Completely agree that there are solutions here to manage demand. I have 10kWh battery storage in the attic and that certainly reduces reliance on high price grid energy. I am not yet sure about the cost case for the batteries as they seem expensive for doing just 'one job'. If that was my EV car instead, at least I could drive it about; plus a usable capacity of 60kWh or more would run the house for 4 days if needed. These are exciting times and I would like to see a government strategy to support great PV, EV, home battery and other renewable solutions.
Start with the people who are on the pointy edge of innovation.
Start with people who have solar and an EV.
There are hundreds of people that can gladly step up and produce power with their PV and charge their cars from THEIR pv AND send power to the grid. Maybe thousands.
People who have invested in PV, home batteries, and EVs have all the hardware necessary to make V2G happen.
The point is just to START and do V2G.
V2H would be the best for me and many others that can’t or don’t want a so called smart meter, generating your own by solar PV and storing in your EV. All of the offers of cheap rate tariffs are for smart meter properties only.
Why can't or don't you want a smart meter?
@@B0jangle5 trust, I don’t trust them (including the establishment) and giving them the ability to switch off my electricity remotely is a definite no.
On the technical side we have appalling mobile signal here, it’s now over 12 months since the BP Pulse charger was fitted and I still can’t login, mind you BP Pulse have been totally useless.
It a nice value for the grid operators.
And much better then home-batteries, grid locations with non li-ion is a more sustainable.
Most aren't and won't be sold with v2g, because it ads a lot of cost the already high EV price.
This episode also show the added cost of variable sources.
It's more then the production cost.
And variable renewables aren't the goal, sustainable energy grids are.
The minor hidden problem is that this will be a pyramid game in the beginning and in the end, nobody will make any money (not really a bad thing). Why? Well, if EVs help to shave off the peaks, peaks will get cheaper. And if they get cheaper, the less people will participate. As less people participate, it will get more expensive again, etc. After short time, the system will find equilibrium, where there will be so many EVs just casually plugged in, that the peak will no longer play any significant effect and we might even forget we ever had this problem.
We have a leaf, model 3 SR, 13kw solar array and powerwall2. As the global majority (by volume - like them or loath them) of new ev’s hitting the market are currently tesla - we really need them to come to the V2X party. I’m guessing they are too scared to because of cannibalising their own powerwall energy business. In my view this is shortsighted.
Home battery is great for load shifting and power outage resiliency. Bigger batteries in the cars could cover bigger home peak loads but also support large V2G (with more capacity than their apparent favoured direction of virtual power plants from powerwall only).
One of the technical issues for V2G is export gateway control and safety of power to the grid during grid outages. But Tesla already have this fixed with all powerwall installationS. All that is needed from Tesla is modification for bidirectional ac inverters either in the car or a wall box. The rest is software. It could be easy and rapidly scaleable.
It seems they may be bringing V2L in cybertruck so hopefully that trickles to other models?
Please think bigger Tesla. You could do great things for the sustainable energy future!
I think we need to think this through. I'll make it clear that I have a full EV and a solar/battery system at home, so am happy to reduce fossil fuel usage.
However, the peaks seem to be when most EV owners would need to go to work or not have yet got home and may have a low state of charge. Also, they may need to take children to various activities after work.
I can't see the government allowing paying more for the electricity than the user paid - they are already looking at ways to tax EV's more.
I'm not convinced that this is a good thing for the consumer. Maybe car to house is a good option, but the power companies sucking out your energy whenever they feel like, is not something I would be happy about.
I believe that they should be looking at modular reactors and a way of storing electricity. Surely it is better to buy electricity from those with solar panels and store it for peak times?
Lots of great information. I feel sad for how much longer it will take my country to grasp this concept. We're still arguing about how great coal is...
Loved Roberts entrance 👌🤣
There are a few cars that use the same inverter for turning AC into DC for charging and DC into AC for driving their AC motors. These cars work reliably, so I don't think it's outrageous to require it. After all, what is the cost of a few relays added to the price of an entire car? Not a lot.
I have been sold on the idea for a long time, but my local DNO (electricity provider) won't allow me to have it!
"Sending your electrons back to the grid"
Even as a casual explanation for the layman this was painful to hear
This would be a great ADDITION to a home solar system with a modest home battery. It doesn't have to be either one or the other.
V2H or V2G or both. I think that we need both. The important thing is using all systems with batteries and generating electricity. Wind, solar , nuclear, hydro and so on.
Undoubtedly V2G should be an integral part of the grid in the coming decade. It only makes sense.
I'm surprised that it's still not the norm. The bloody 2011 leaf can do it.
Yes, so it is the design of the grid does not technically allow it and there is significant political inertial to allow it. It would be an energy revolution to be resisted!
Mhhm - what's the effect/impact of V2G on the battery warranty provided by the carmakers and the battery lifetime by the increased charging cycles? It this really feasible and does it really make sense to use a practically not replaceable battery for this purpose? Not sure at all.... and this is not covered in the video.
I was asked why there was so much fuss over Electric cars, vans and lorries having VTG ( Vehicle to Grid) capability ?
Most EVs have a battery storage size of about 60kWh. Most EV owners have a cheap overnight tariff offered to them ( 9p v 32p kWh ).
My home uses about 15kWh a day. If I charged up an EV overnight with cheap energy, with VTG I could use that stored energy to run my home all day, whilst only reducing the range of the car by a quarter (240 miles v 180 miles).
If I want to use the energy for travel instead, I simply switch off the VTG facility via an app.
If there is a power cut, I could run my home from my EV via VTG for 3 days. ( Only 3 days as the car will not allow VTG to pull more than ¾ of the capacity )
If you have a home battery and solar, then you could not only run your home and car off cheap rate electricity, but you could elect to sell your excess energy back to grid during peak demand times, making money and saving the planet at the same time.
So that’s why there is such a fuss over EVs having VTG. Businesses could reduce their bills by using their vans and lorries as energy stores as well as transport systems.
1. There is no “off peak” here it is one rate $0.11kwh 24/7
2. Electric companies here buy back at $0.02kwh for uploaded vs the $0.11 for download.
3. Most home and auto insurers do not allow upload to grid because of the increased risk & liability. Those that do have much higher rates.
4. You are increasing the cycling of the battery, this affects the warranty, longevity, and value of the vehicle.
5. Energy costs are soaring and are highest amongst those switching to renewables.
When the electric companies know we all have to charge at night to be able to get to work the rates will soar as they know you have no choice.
The issues are that the infrastructure to get the charge during the day are almost non existent (workplaces, car parks etc) let alone return it...
I would love V2H as weekends would mean our household uses zero energy during the day, even in the winter... however, and it's a big however, the utility companies are going to find ways to monetise it in their favour, or just outright stealing it (our supplier is charging us for electricity we're not even using, and yes we're on a smart meter: OFGEM is almost useless)
The fact is, all this Tech is not going to be used for our benefit, unless we live in the woods and separate ourselves from the grid (PV, hydro, wind etc), because they will just take the energy as you'll have no way to monitor it (Apps are open to manipulation, as our supplier is doing atm) and no way to enforce your Rights...
A Utopian society is the aim, but a dystopian future of monitoring and control is the likely outcome...I speak as someone who tried to be part of the Indra Beta testing...
Excellent video, thank you.
I have been talking this up for years all over the place. In 2000 I was trying to get people to take a serious look at this. Also I was doing the same thing with CNG from home.
Buy your gas or run it through your mtr. Into your home and store it compressed in an underground or vault mounted tank on-site.
Use it later in the winter during peak usage or through a generator at home when the power goes out from storms.
Convert a small compact commuter car to run on CNG that you refill from your home storage.
Granted this was long before Electric vehicles became viable.
CNG is way less polluting than Gasoline or Diesel and in certain situations you could use RNG instead.
I grew up on a farm and back in the 70's we were running converted tractors on LPG and capturing methane to run through a gas generator to help save on Electricity costs at that time.
Carter was in office and it was horrible.
It likely to be a combination of both. I do foresee a future where grid licensing will have to come in, a standardize charge that we all pay to keep the national grid funded and operational.
An EV has a huge battery capable of driving a large car two hundred miles or more. Common sense alone tells me that some of that energy could be used for other purposes, such as supplying domestic appliances. We all know that the problem with renewables is that their variable supply depends on the variable nature of wind and sunshine. Inserting the storage and delivery capability of many EVs could help to ease these issues. The technology exists; what is needed is cooperation between manufacturers and the authorities.
I would really like to see this happen. Supposedly if all cars were EV’s there would be enough storage, to avoid grid upgrade. Make it happen.
It's very cool! I charge my (home conversion) EV directly from solar and drive or use it power my PC & lights in the evening.
Thank you. Really important.
I was part of the Greenpeace team that launched a report 10 years ago (!!) that saw this coming. So sad that we’re still so far behind. Led by donkeys
The final comments from her is the most important part of this video.
06:41 "And for this I need to speak with an expert, Mike Schooling..." Hint: Turn on CC now if you want to understand what "Mike" is saying. His accent (Welsh?) is so thick you will catch only about 40 percent of what he is actually saying. Thank god for CC!
Seems like a good idea at first thought, but beware. They will give you stuff all money for your power. In Australia they have reduced the amount paid from 16.3c to as low as 3c per kWh in just 3 years. Years ago the payment was around 44c and for a small period of time just over 60 something cents per kWh. For me they will need to pay a reasonable amount per kWh or they get can get stuffed. Beware people.
In an optimistic world, this could help bring people closer together. Knowing that we are all contributing to a common good. And just decentralizing energy consumption would help reduce the need of mega projects like large scale power plants. I believe there have been studies of “What If” major cities would cover rooftops (both large and small) with solar panels. Cities like a New York would become that power plant. Couple that with EV parking within garages would be a great start to a better future. But I’m sure I’m stating the obvious. 😏😏😏
Another angle on this is for people who own a home battery, to ensure they run their home at the cheapest tariff rate, to be able to get into this scheme. Many people don't own a car at all let alone an EV and are just using a home battery for energy savings within the home.
Being able to fully charge their battery overnight and then trickle back a set amount to the grid when it needs the excess power sounds like a plan.
As well this might kick up a business where old EV batteries are reclaimed and used as home batteries as a cheaper alternative to buying a brand new battery for the purpose.
V2H is the easiest(relatively) and most preferred mode first and once that convinces people they can think of sending excess back to grid.
I have a EV and a CCS charger. I wnat V2H, and by extension V2G. I don't really care who enables this: CCS standards body, EV manufacturer or home charger manufacturer; but it really needs to be ssoner rather than later. Please can you rase this at each of your 2023 FCL shows so that V2H & V2G gets some more exposure? Good video on an important topic, thanks.
My goodness that chap spoke fast.. OK so taking a step back V2G is about taking an industrial level number of batteries and providing a physical and commercial infrastructure that enables the owners (car drivers) to be able to use the tiny (in the scheme of things) batteries in their cars to club together with millions of other car owners to essentially provide a massive storage facility for a country. It's a great idea (and I thought that Tesla were heading down that path as they are a registered utility company in the UK). Well I hope it works out. I have my 11 year old solar array (8.5Kw) and a near 2 year old Tesla Powerwall (wish I'd done that earlier- doubled the amount of solar I use). Plug-in hybrid on it's way ... full EV order cancelled as the Oct 2021 order became (maybe) April 2023 delivery... not willing to buy into 3 year old battery tech.
school buses in US, on V2G, would be interesting they came with solar in their huge roof, charging while parked during the day waiting for afternoon journey
Charging hundreds of thousands of EVs during off peak hours will at some point be not so off peak, raising the price.
Nope
Actually, up to a point it will lower prices... because the grid *has to pay* to switch off some power generators (to reduce supply low enough to match the low demand). Increasing off-peak demand means the grid no longer has to pay that extra cost, making power cheaper (provided they pass some of those savings on).
Grid price is determined by the most expensive generation cost, plus any disconnection fees... renewable is cheap, it's only when demand rises to the point that 'expensive' peaker plants (running on gas or oil) fire up that prices start rising with demand.
@@logicalChimp at some point...up to a point, exactly.
having enough renewable energy with sufficient battery storage for normal situations and base generation for unusual times is key.
I'd love to have a reasonable EV with V to X to complement my solar!
but then if there are millions of EV's charging at off-peak rates, then the oil refineries will no longer be taking electricity from the grid in the same amount as previously, so there ought to be plenty of grid capacity...... We aren't going to need millions of gallons of petrol and diesel every day *and* EV's as well, are we?
@@Brian-om2hh oil refineries will be using less and less electricity to sustain ICE vehicles 24/7!
Maybe there are enough off peak hours vs. 4-9pm peak hours to spread out all EV charging so that any off peak charging is usually less than peak.
When most transportation transitions to electric, I'm assuming that it will require several times more juice than all homes. If most homes go all electric, then more balanced.
With all this pressure on the grid, there'd better be a reliable (at least short term, longer than batteries) backup!!
The "Grid" is a private company in the UK without competition that makes £1 billion turnover pa. Even with an EV, you're going to face a connection fee. Goverments tax what people use the most.
The Honda e has V2G capability too. A trial was started in Germany last month.
Vehicle to grid is most probably the thing that makes home batteries (the car) mainstream.
Ref V2G , the fitting of a 4-quadrant converter (2-way inverter) is trivially more complex and expensive than a standard one.
I read recently that there are several US states that have already legislated against private owners selling electricity back. Sponsored by the generating companies...
It makes absolute sense to use the large vehicle batteries as short term storage for the grid. The technical issues are relatively small. Getting all the stakeholders onboard is the challenge.
Law makers need to see the big picture not just the lobbyists money.
Don't mind me just old and full of cynicism...
Can’t wait for the live show in Sydney!
I've a Vauxhall Vivaro-e coming in the next few weeks. I hope that it will allow for V2H via it's CCS.
Wonder how quickly they'll have fusion ready to be used?
A big question is how will the vehicle manufacturer address battery warranty. Currently typically 8 years / 160000 km, this is based on a number of cycles, not allowing for any additional use of the battery, such as V2G. I am thinking of Tesla which has the biggest population of vehicles out there and probably rather sell us more Powerwalls than let us do V2G.