12 Days of Celtic Myth II - Day 2 Trouble at Feasts
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- Опубликовано: 22 дек 2023
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The 12 Days of Celtic Mythology, Season 2, Day 2
You can read an annotated translation of the original Welsh text at www.culhwch.info or listen to an excellent storyteller telling the whole thing here: • The Tale of Culhwch an...
If you’d like to join the live online discussions, you need to become a patron (mininimum cost $2 per month. Cancel any time). / krishughes
Information about all my classes is available at: tinyurl.com/GDclasses
Today’s sources:
Elizabeth A. Gray, trans. Cath Maige Tuired. (1982) pp 39-41
sacred-texts.com/neu/cmt/cmte...
Sioned Davies, trans. The Mabinogion. (2007) pp 67-69, 116
Simon Armitage, trans. Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. (2007) pp 23-31
Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru The standard historical Welsh dictionary.
www.geiriadur.ac.uk/
The 12 Days of Celtic Mythology, Season 2, Day 2
You can read an annotated translation of the original Welsh text at www.culhwch.info or listen to an excellent storyteller telling the whole thing here: ruclips.net/video/gAkiZktLyJk/видео.html
If you’d like to join the live online discussions, you need to become a patron (mininimum cost $2 per month. Cancel any time). www.patreon.com/KrisHughes
Information about all my classes is available at: tinyurl.com/GDclasses
Today’s sources:
Elizabeth A. Gray, trans. Cath Maige Tuired. (1982) pp 39-41
sacred-texts.com/neu/cmt/cmteng.htm
Sioned Davies, trans. The Mabinogion. (2007) pp 67-69, 116
Simon Armitage, trans. Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. (2007) pp 23-31
Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru The standard historical Welsh dictionary.
www.geiriadur.ac.uk/
I see Arthur in this tale as patient and generous, slow to take offense and willing to listen. A seasoned individual. He offers all that is within his power freely and without judgement.
Culhwch I see as impatient and brash. Very young in the ways of the wider world but driven by his objective to the extent that he is blunt and rude. He asks Arthur to cut his hair and I see this as a symbol of public transformation from child status to adult status.
Arthur to me seems accustomed to being admired and honored, so he expects it and yet can be humble enough to respond courteously when some one else, namely Culhwch, is not so courteous.
On Culhwch behavior, we don’t have a lot of background to go, but he seems to be spoiled and too used to getting his way without question. So he gets angry quickly and makes threats that are designed to get quick action. Arthur successfully defuses Culhwch’s anger and they can get onto business. So, petulant boy meets seasoned ruler.
What I see as great about Arthur is his generosity and insight.Although he was offended by a young man he had never met, he did not become angry. It was generous to receive him.He discerned with his relationship perceptively, and recognized his excellence in a frivolous surface.He was sort of a humorous, generous, kind king. That led me to Dagda.
Glewlwyd is clearly a young man. I could feel his unnatural arrogance, his sense of certainty.From the character point of view, this makes me feel like a poor teenager suddenly know that they are rich children, showing a kind of attempt to blend in, but also a bit of self-abased ambivalence. From a (mythological) story, this brings me to the story of Aengus Óg and Cáer from The Irish story. Some love stories are as overwhelming as fate, it's mysterious appearance, even if doomed to death or tragedy can not stop this fate of love.
Wow! So many amazing insights in the comments today!!
Arthur is portrayed as the King of the Land. The Green Man/Knight at Mid-Winter represents the fertility of the Land gone at Mid-Winter and the King represents the Sun that is 'sacrificed' to be reborn and return life and fertility to the Land.
Arthur is the Mid-Winter Sun.
Arthur is portrayed as the King of the Land and this harkens back to the Green Man/Knight representing the loss of fertility at Mid-Winter. The King is the Sun.
first Arthur struck me as an individual who was just sitting in his court, feasting and sharing his former glories, content to live in the past. But then it struck me how when Culhwch gained entry Arthur was actually quick to interct and then to engage on adventure with him. Having got diverted to my copy of Gawain and the Green knight I found this description of Arthur " He brimmed with ebulliance, being almost boyish in his love of life, and what he liked least was to sit still and watch the seasons dip by (Simon Armitage translation). It was Glewlwyd who didn't want the disruption, and Cei who wanted the custums upheld rather than let Culhwcjh distrupt. So rather than seeing Arthur as this chieftan happy to just sit at Court relieving past glories I now see him as almost trapped by the protocals of Court and the people round him and actually just waiting for an excuse to break out into adventure.
My first thought on Culhwch was an arrogant youth who felt the world belonged to him. I then thought of the massive difference in attitutudes to life between me and one of me collegues at work. I have the advantage of a white middle class background -it was expected I should go to college, own a house etc. I didn't have to fight to get into the position I am in -and I see overt shows of wealth as inappropriate, and fell automatically into the idea that you were meant to be humble about your achievements. My colleague is from an ethnic minority, working class, rough part of London. He had to fight to get to the position I just fell into in.. He had to push himself forward, had to demonstrate he "should" be allowed to over into a totally diffenert social sphere -to do this he had to be pushy - with the result that he can appear quite arrogant - if he hadn't forced people to see his worth he couldn't have got anywhere. I then wondered if Culhch was a bit like him. Ok he was from an important family and not a nobody, but he was still trying to move into a different social sphere -into the elite - and he could only do ths by showing his worth -both in his external display of wealth and his arrogant attitute. add to this a bit of desperation -he knew if he didn't get to Arthur he would never get his bride and he would have no legitatimate heirs, and it perhaps explains his determination and forthrightness.
My initial impression of Arthur reminded me a bit of Bendigeidfran in the 2nd branch in how accommodating they both were, and I wondered if his greatness was measured by his hospitality? As for Culhwch’s attitude when he arrives at Arthur's court it did occur to me that the destiny sworn on him by his stepmother was a curse perhaps for his insult to her daughter by rejecting to marry her.
The Arthur portrayed is in my opinion an Upholder of tradition but also a definer of that Tradition where he breaks tradition to allow Culhwch to enter. Culhwch is challenging that tradition but also respecting aspects of it i.e. he enters on his horse but then praises Arthur in the traditional way
Arthur is not the young hero in the story, just the accomplished "dad" figure. Culhwch was right to be upset for being initially turned away at the gate, but his threats to Arthur and his court mean that ultimately, Culhwch does not personally respect Arthur as an equal or as a commonly respected and venerated hero.
1. Arthur reminded me of an old tenured professor sitting on his laurels. His best work is decades behind him. He is aware of this, and expresses his shame in it when he asks his warriors not to make fun of him while he takes a nap. However, while he no longer goes on adventures, his role in the court is now a legendary king who can grant powerful boons, such as giving Culhwch the dream team for his quests.
2. A couple ideas come to mind to explain Culhwch's attitude toward Arthur's court. The first is that maybe he is just young, inexperienced, and overconfident, perhaps feeling entitled being Arthur's cousin. I think it is also possible that he is so single-minded in his ambition to win his destined love that he forgets decorum. It wouldn't be the last time in Arthurian legend when one of Arthur's warriors/knights abandon their morals or manners for the woman he loves.
Yup -love is definitly a serious motivater in a lot of Arthurs tales. I had seen it a lot before in the later romantc stories from the French tradition and found it interesting to see that the link is just a strong in the older WElsh tales, love/lust definitly leads to the breaking of rules and protocals. I wonder if this was seen as a good thing -love conquering all obstacles, or a bad thing -the woman dirupting the proper procedures of life!
I felt that within the story of Cullwch and Owen, Arthur was presented more as a representation of the bounds courtly courtesy and the settling in of a hero into veteran and wise elder.
Cullwch seems petulant at the gate. Perhaps this was a result of fearing his tynged would now be impossible to complete having arrived too late. As someone who just completed a long journey, I can relate to how quickly he lost his composure.
Arthur seems settled in, Culwch reminds of the youth indo European Koryos bands maybe since his connection to the boar. This all reminds me of the Chamiieres Tablet and the speculation of Maponos and the magic of restoring youth? Despite Arthur seemingly passive it’s interesting in the version that I read it seems that at least by the hunt of Tywch Tryg that Arthur is the main force and Culwch isn’t really shown but that could just be Ellis version, I’ll be reading the Ford translation in my copy of the Mabi next. Thanks for sparking me back into the myths and contemplation.
I hadn't heard of the Koryos bands - thnk you for the diversion! I can see the link, the bit I read suggested they were free of the normal protocls and taboos, so pushing his way into Arthurs Court against standard protocal, as this young warrior, would fit well.
Arthur seems a benevolent figure, oddly indulgent of Culhwchs behaviour. Culhwch comes across almost as a stroppy teenager! Perhaps there's a teaching tale in this, something to do with hospitality and the rashness of youth?
Arthur Is greater than great. Culhwch is pleasantly intriguing to arthur which probably makes him a bff instantly. Peace ✌️
Sorry for the mass culture reference, but I'm not yet familiar with the mythic literature...
It reminds me of the scene in Excalibur, where Arthur first meets his son Mordred. Arthur is older and weak, sitting on his throne (carried by servants), and Mordred speaks to him while still on his horse.
Both Mordred and Culhwch are would-be kings, seeking something from Arthur. In both situations, the princes could have been killed on sight for their arrogance, but Arthur doesn't make a move. Instead, in both cases he offers his love, as kinsman or father.
As for personal interpretation...
Looking at the story kind of literally... it's not just that someone enters the king's presence on horseback - it's that they speak to him from a physically higher position. Not as subordinates or equals, but from a superior position.
Culhwch is perhaps showing strength, but the issue I would have with him (his character) is that he is not addressing Arthur - he is addressing the Throne of the Kingdom (it's symbolic heart). Which to my reading shows Culhwch to be unfit as a ruler.
The only way I can see this being read in some other way is if Culhwch's father is some kind of High King, over Arthur. Which would mean Culhwch is working toward the same position, and he is actually seeking the aid of a future lesser ally.
Arthur comes across almost like he is constrained by his own reputation, so he feels like he must do what people expect of him. If he has the respect and loyalty of all these amazing warriors and commands so many soldiers he must have been great at some point, but it feels like he's sort of in preservation mode--too tired to make new legends so he merely wants to keep the good will he had before. Culhwch comes across very bratty, very entitled. Maybe Culhwch sees in Arthur the strings to pull so that he may get whatever he wants. The old and established being met with the brash and young.
Isnt the 'dd' pronounced as 'ff' in welsh?
No, it's pronounced like "th" in the English 'there' or 'that'.
Similar, but certainly not as a hard 'D'.
the story teller presents Arthur not as a classic hero. Perhaps the narrative structure can only handle one hero and that would be Culhwch. As a non-hero, Arthur remined me of the Fisher King from the Grail legend, a wounded, weak king. Culhwch has attitude in defiance of a norm of hospitality and deference to authority. (similar to Arthurs refusal/inability to act heroically). This upending of norms may be a social equivalent of the Wasteland. Rather than invoking the Grail legend, it may be a standard structure for quest stories - Only the quest can heal the wasteland, one aspect of which is the wounded weak king who is supposed to keep the world in order.
If we look at this not from the perspective of the medieval Christianised Arthur of the written stories, but rather through the lens of the oral Celtic Heroic Age, then the actions of these two characters seem to make more sense.
In CHA the warrior and his reputation lay at the very centre of the culture. They were expected to be arrogant and boastful, thus riding his horse into Arthur’s court could be viewed as the ultimate act of arrogance, something that only a great warrior would dare to do. The arrogance in a way lays testimony to the warriors greatness. Arthur’s lack of response may be seen as appropriate, for to give attention to another’s arrogance was seen as a recognition of their superiority.
The Welsh diffidence about Arthur could possibly be explained as propaganda. If, as has been suggested, Arthur was from the Old North then to pay him too much respect would be to diminish the role of Wales in the whole defenders of the Brythonic/Celtic culture.