Mabon, Modron and Maponos ONLINE CLASS Starts 28th August, 2024. More info: tinyurl.com/maponos24 PAY-WHAT-YOU-CAN UPCOMING CLASSES: Celtic Poetry Workshop starts 31st August. Women and Goddesses in the Mabinogi starts 8th August. PAY-WHAT-YOU-CAN Information about classes always available at tinyurl.com/GDclasses
Mabon ap Mellt/Modron may be a figure of many titles: Divine Son, Lord of the Hunt(ing Hounds), Prince of Dyfed and son of Pen Annwn. Perhaps Gwri Wallt Euryn as a young fostered Pryderi got conflated in the mind of the scribe with Gwrgi and Peredur. Or even Gweir ap Gwystyl / Geirioed another figure imprisoned in an otherworldly fortress. Perhaps it was meant to refer to Owain and Mabon, but the references got confused. I also liked the idea of a divine twinning with Teyrnon's colt, but I am not convinced that has anything to do with the problem before us. I feel like the simplest answer is that the sky was trying to combine various versions of the story that they had access to and some things got doubled or separated that should have remained singular in nature. This, perhaps, being a prime example.
I think it was to help with continuity, with all the different places the story would likely be travelling to and from. It may be an aid to help people understand the meaning of the source of the story. Peace ✌️
My take, they could be brothers. My husband is a fraternal twin, and the twins resemble each other enough that when they are not together, they are often called by the others name. For Mabon and Gware, that would mean they could appear together and be recognized correctly, or appear separately and be confused for each other. Just another interpretation to throw everyone off track!
As others have already commented there are several possible reasons for Mabon ap Mellt (who might also be Mabon ap Modron) and Gware Gwallt Euryn (whose name is incredibly similar to Gwri Wallt Euryn of the First Branch) to be together at this point of the tale. One is that the scribe or whoever told the scribe the story didn't connect them as being possibly the same person or being. Another is that two strands of the oral tradition were brought together in this section of the tale. It's also possible that they were being brought together to emphasise something although I have no idea what that could be. It could also have simply been an error, a tired scribe not remembering things well perhaps. I think the most likely reason for them both being present is that it's two strands of a story brought together by someone who didn't connect them as possibly being the same person but with different names or titles in the different versions.
Interesting question about Mabon ap Mellt and Gware, and I'm of two minds (pun slightly intended) about what this means. My initial thought was that one of Mabon's divine gifts is his ability to take on multiple "god guises", perhaps even at the same time. This could also explain why he appears in the other guises mentioned: Pryderi and the "ap Modron" vs "ap Mellt" distinction. My other thought was something less mystical: that the audience at the time was aware of the different mythic traditions of the individual forms of Mabon and also experiencing some confusion of how they are conflated (much like we are now). In which case the appearance of both Mabon and Gware in this section could be seen as a manifestation of that confusion, whether intentional or unintentional.
SO many smiliar names. Gwri, Gware, not to mention all the Gweirs! My first thought was that there really should be three of them-given the bardic like for triplets! My next was that Gware seems sought of tacked on to the narritive given that Mabon comes back with all three hounds (SO many dogs!) My third thought (I really must stop dreaming about Cullwch!) was this - Gwri and Gware are pretty similar to Gwair and Gweir so transcribers or non native Welsh speakers ould easily confuse them all, the names may well also have varied slightly n different Brythonic areas (after all North and South Welsh are still different) The "spoils of Annwn" Gwair seems VERY similar to Mabon - locked away, needing Arthurs resce -I would be amazed if they were nt the same individual. I also read that some scholars suggest that Gweir may be a title rather than a name (but I coudn't get into the article to read more than the first paragraph -so it may have been nonsense). But if it was it would explain why there are so many people called Gweir in the court list. It could also link the "gwair like name" group to Mabon - a totally different name - perhaps he was original MABon son of Modren and Mellt "lord" (or whatever sort of title Geir might be) with the golden hair. (I have of course already found some problems with my theory in the parental figures, the ap ... - !!) All of which would make (in a very convoluted way) Mabon and Gware the same person. On a total tangent, while looking at Ysbadden's challange list for this question I noticed something I hadn't noted before, stuck in the list of things Cullwch won't be able to get is "Arthur and huntsmen...This is why,he owes homage to me". This struck me as interesting in that it fits with the giants as somehow the older beings. It also made me wonder if this is why Arthur felt the need to play along with Ysbadden's challanges-rather than just cutting his head off(as they seem to do with most giants!), if he was in the position of having to give homage to Ysbadden just killing him would be dishonourable and perhaps even cursed. Either that or Ysbadden is just bl;uffing with his challanges, throwing off as many things as he can - perhaps a normal razor would have done!! SO many thoughts and questions - pity work has to interrupt me!
Never mind the razor - in the end, they don't even cut his hair! I feel like I probably dealt with about 75-80% of the inconsistencies in this series. About the same, I'm guessing, as how many of the anoethau are actually completed "as advertised". Tomorrow's script written. Going to bed now!
So this is just a "pet theory" type thing that popped up the moment you pointed out that one of the biggest differences between the two figures is that Mabon was given to "eons" apart from his mother and in captivity whereas Gware Gwallt Euryn/Pryderi was found earlier and got to know his mother and got to have a more "full and normal" life than Mabon would ever have. Maybe they are paired together to show the difference in spirit/character of two. Whereas Mabon was introduced lamenting that he had the saddest fate of all, Pryderi/Gware Gwallt Euryn seems to have been nurtured by all those around him after he came back to his family. Gware Gwallt Euryn is like a figure of learned skill whereas Mabon is a figure of gifted/innate skill and maybe even from his parents being deities. tbh I only came up with this idea because it's popular in anime aha. Immediately where you pointed out that they were paired together multiple times it reminded me of more than one shonen anime where two boys are put together who seemingly had similar circumstances but they are different in very purposeful ways and the idea that this tradition was found also in this story and this culture tickled me a bit!
So many possible reasons flying round my head. I wonder if one clue might lie in your earlier statement that Celtic mythology is really a huge network of interwoven stories, and the scribe has either become confused or is deliberately showing us the similarities between these two stories? Or is it because many Celtic gods have triple aspects and the scribe is presenting two aspects of the one god? I’ve been pondering this for several hours and am no nearer a conclusion. Can we ever really know the how and why of it? The stories have been/are being trickled down to us through sthe filters of so many centuries and different scribes the truth will always be obscure. I’m off to polish my spear, we have a spokes-piglet to skewer.
question and not sure where to ask you...what are your thoughts on The Druids: Celtic Priests of Nature by Jean Markale? I have put together a set of books based upon your one video where you reviewed your suggested reading, but I was told about this book by someone else and wanted to get your take. thank you
To be honest - I haven't read it cover to cover. It strikes me as being in that class of book where the author has looked at some primary sources, and the work of other scholars, he quotes them, but then has a tendency to state the conclusions he draws from what he's read as fact, rather than theory. That is something that i see way too much of in neoPagan circles. People don't understand how to a) explain their reasoning, and b) qualify their statements with phrases like, "I think" and "maybe". There would be a LOT less stupid arguments about things if authors would set an example by doing that. My other issue is that, not all primary sources, and not all works of scholarship, are equally dependable. It seems like authors and videographers completely lack filtres. I suspect this book suffers from all of these problems some of the time. It think that Ron Hutton's pair - "The Druids" and "Blood and Mistletoe" would be much safer choices as far as getting the facts correct - but they will also be a bit dry for most readers. As far as books of neoDruidry, I really haven't read any.
@@KrisHughes thank you very much, I have a copy of blood and mistletoe, been looking for druids but its a bit pricey to get ahold of. (never mind found a used copy for a good price) I was going to pick up: - the brehon laws: a legal handbook - teasgasca: the instructions of cormac mac airt - the barddas of iolo morganwg then I was debating getting The Druids by Jean Markale but dont' want to keep adding neopagan fluff books. I'm after actual sources. (one of the reasons I watch so many of your videos). I was debating picking up Annals of the Kingdom of Ireland by the Four Masters but at around $35 I might wait on it for now. Thank you again for the assistance.
Being at a complete loss to today’s question, I read the passages that included Mabon ap Mellt and Gware Gwallt Euryn in both Patrick Ford’s and Sionedd Davies translation of Culhwch and Olwen and re-watched today's video two more times. Sadly, I have no credible answer to today's question, so I’m resigned at this point to guess the reason why they appeared together was due to the combination of a new moon while Mercury was in retrograde. I honestly tried.
Mabon, Modron and Maponos ONLINE CLASS
Starts 28th August, 2024. More info: tinyurl.com/maponos24
PAY-WHAT-YOU-CAN
UPCOMING CLASSES:
Celtic Poetry Workshop starts 31st August.
Women and Goddesses in the Mabinogi starts 8th August. PAY-WHAT-YOU-CAN
Information about classes always available at tinyurl.com/GDclasses
Liking this series.💚💛
Mabon ap Mellt/Modron may be a figure of many titles: Divine Son, Lord of the Hunt(ing Hounds), Prince of Dyfed and son of Pen Annwn. Perhaps Gwri Wallt Euryn as a young fostered Pryderi got conflated in the mind of the scribe with Gwrgi and Peredur. Or even Gweir ap Gwystyl / Geirioed another figure imprisoned in an otherworldly fortress.
Perhaps it was meant to refer to Owain and Mabon, but the references got confused.
I also liked the idea of a divine twinning with Teyrnon's colt, but I am not convinced that has anything to do with the problem before us.
I feel like the simplest answer is that the sky was trying to combine various versions of the story that they had access to and some things got doubled or separated that should have remained singular in nature. This, perhaps, being a prime example.
I think it was to help with continuity, with all the different places the story would likely be travelling to and from. It may be an aid to help people understand the meaning of the source of the story. Peace ✌️
My take, they could be brothers. My husband is a fraternal twin, and the twins resemble each other enough that when they are not together, they are often called by the others name. For Mabon and Gware, that would mean they could appear together and be recognized correctly, or appear separately and be confused for each other. Just another interpretation to throw everyone off track!
They seem to parallel each other so much, it's not likely a coincidence. It is probable that Rhiannon is Modron, and Pryderi is Mabon.
As others have already commented there are several possible reasons for Mabon ap Mellt (who might also be Mabon ap Modron) and Gware Gwallt Euryn (whose name is incredibly similar to Gwri Wallt Euryn of the First Branch) to be together at this point of the tale. One is that the scribe or whoever told the scribe the story didn't connect them as being possibly the same person or being. Another is that two strands of the oral tradition were brought together in this section of the tale. It's also possible that they were being brought together to emphasise something although I have no idea what that could be. It could also have simply been an error, a tired scribe not remembering things well perhaps.
I think the most likely reason for them both being present is that it's two strands of a story brought together by someone who didn't connect them as possibly being the same person but with different names or titles in the different versions.
Interesting question about Mabon ap Mellt and Gware, and I'm of two minds (pun slightly intended) about what this means. My initial thought was that one of Mabon's divine gifts is his ability to take on multiple "god guises", perhaps even at the same time. This could also explain why he appears in the other guises mentioned: Pryderi and the "ap Modron" vs "ap Mellt" distinction. My other thought was something less mystical: that the audience at the time was aware of the different mythic traditions of the individual forms of Mabon and also experiencing some confusion of how they are conflated (much like we are now). In which case the appearance of both Mabon and Gware in this section could be seen as a manifestation of that confusion, whether intentional or unintentional.
SO many smiliar names. Gwri, Gware, not to mention all the Gweirs! My first thought was that there really should be three of them-given the bardic like for triplets!
My next was that Gware seems sought of tacked on to the narritive given that Mabon comes back with all three hounds (SO many dogs!)
My third thought (I really must stop dreaming about Cullwch!) was this - Gwri and Gware are pretty similar to Gwair and Gweir so transcribers or non native Welsh speakers ould easily confuse them all, the names may well also have varied slightly n different Brythonic areas (after all North and South Welsh are still different) The "spoils of Annwn" Gwair seems VERY similar to Mabon - locked away, needing Arthurs resce -I would be amazed if they were nt the same individual. I also read that some scholars suggest that Gweir may be a title rather than a name (but I coudn't get into the article to read more than the first paragraph -so it may have been nonsense). But if it was it would explain why there are so many people called Gweir in the court list. It could also link the "gwair like name" group to Mabon - a totally different name - perhaps he was original MABon son of Modren and Mellt "lord" (or whatever sort of title Geir might be) with the golden hair. (I have of course already found some problems with my theory in the parental figures, the ap ... - !!) All of which would make (in a very convoluted way) Mabon and Gware the same person.
On a total tangent, while looking at Ysbadden's challange list for this question I noticed something I hadn't noted before, stuck in the list of things Cullwch won't be able to get is "Arthur and huntsmen...This is why,he owes homage to me". This struck me as interesting in that it fits with the giants as somehow the older beings. It also made me wonder if this is why Arthur felt the need to play along with Ysbadden's challanges-rather than just cutting his head off(as they seem to do with most giants!), if he was in the position of having to give homage to Ysbadden just killing him would be dishonourable and perhaps even cursed. Either that or Ysbadden is just bl;uffing with his challanges, throwing off as many things as he can - perhaps a normal razor would have done!!
SO many thoughts and questions - pity work has to interrupt me!
Never mind the razor - in the end, they don't even cut his hair! I feel like I probably dealt with about 75-80% of the inconsistencies in this series. About the same, I'm guessing, as how many of the anoethau are actually completed "as advertised". Tomorrow's script written. Going to bed now!
So this is just a "pet theory" type thing that popped up the moment you pointed out that one of the biggest differences between the two figures is that Mabon was given to "eons" apart from his mother and in captivity whereas Gware Gwallt Euryn/Pryderi was found earlier and got to know his mother and got to have a more "full and normal" life than Mabon would ever have. Maybe they are paired together to show the difference in spirit/character of two. Whereas Mabon was introduced lamenting that he had the saddest fate of all, Pryderi/Gware Gwallt Euryn seems to have been nurtured by all those around him after he came back to his family. Gware Gwallt Euryn is like a figure of learned skill whereas Mabon is a figure of gifted/innate skill and maybe even from his parents being deities. tbh I only came up with this idea because it's popular in anime aha. Immediately where you pointed out that they were paired together multiple times it reminded me of more than one shonen anime where two boys are put together who seemingly had similar circumstances but they are different in very purposeful ways and the idea that this tradition was found also in this story and this culture tickled me a bit!
So many possible reasons flying round my head. I wonder if one clue might lie in your earlier statement that Celtic mythology is really a huge network of interwoven stories, and the scribe has either become confused or is deliberately showing us the similarities between these two stories? Or is it because many Celtic gods have triple aspects and the scribe is presenting two aspects of the one god?
I’ve been pondering this for several hours and am no nearer a conclusion. Can we ever really know the how and why of it? The stories have been/are being trickled down to us through sthe filters of so many centuries and different scribes the truth will always be obscure. I’m off to polish my spear, we have a spokes-piglet to skewer.
question and not sure where to ask you...what are your thoughts on The Druids: Celtic Priests of Nature by Jean Markale? I have put together a set of books based upon your one video where you reviewed your suggested reading, but I was told about this book by someone else and wanted to get your take. thank you
To be honest - I haven't read it cover to cover. It strikes me as being in that class of book where the author has looked at some primary sources, and the work of other scholars, he quotes them, but then has a tendency to state the conclusions he draws from what he's read as fact, rather than theory. That is something that i see way too much of in neoPagan circles. People don't understand how to a) explain their reasoning, and b) qualify their statements with phrases like, "I think" and "maybe". There would be a LOT less stupid arguments about things if authors would set an example by doing that. My other issue is that, not all primary sources, and not all works of scholarship, are equally dependable. It seems like authors and videographers completely lack filtres. I suspect this book suffers from all of these problems some of the time.
It think that Ron Hutton's pair - "The Druids" and "Blood and Mistletoe" would be much safer choices as far as getting the facts correct - but they will also be a bit dry for most readers. As far as books of neoDruidry, I really haven't read any.
@@KrisHughes thank you very much, I have a copy of blood and mistletoe, been looking for druids but its a bit pricey to get ahold of. (never mind found a used copy for a good price)
I was going to pick up:
- the brehon laws: a legal handbook
- teasgasca: the instructions of cormac mac airt
- the barddas of iolo morganwg
then I was debating getting The Druids by Jean Markale but dont' want to keep adding neopagan fluff books. I'm after actual sources. (one of the reasons I watch so many of your videos).
I was debating picking up Annals of the Kingdom of Ireland by the Four Masters but at around $35 I might wait on it for now.
Thank you again for the assistance.
Being at a complete loss to today’s question, I read the passages that included Mabon ap Mellt and Gware Gwallt Euryn in both Patrick Ford’s and Sionedd Davies translation of Culhwch and Olwen and re-watched today's video two more times. Sadly, I have no credible answer to today's question, so I’m resigned at this point to guess the reason why they appeared together was due to the combination of a new moon while Mercury was in retrograde. I honestly tried.
don't give up! You're probably over-thinking it. Get some sleep or go for a walk. It'll come to you.
I so read this as Mabon ap “Melt” 🙈
Every day's a school day.