Talking Cars with Consumer Reports #43: Honda Fit and Porsche Macan | Consumer Reports
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- Опубликовано: 1 окт 2024
- They both have rear hatches: that's about all that the Honda Fit and Porsche Macan share. Each occupies totally different places in the value vs. practicality scale. The Honda Fit might just be the most practical car you can buy, especially given the price. But we don't all agree on the car's refinement. At the other extreme, our Porsche Macan costs over $63,000, but proves to be a rather satisfying guilty pleasure. In between, we discuss test results for the Chevrolet Suburban, Chevy Tahoe, and GMC Yukon. A lot hinges on equipping these big SUVs with one particular option: GM's magnetic ride control.
The Fit is the best all around new automobile money can buy. I am 6.5 feet tall and I can sit in the back with my legs crossed with a hat on. They are fun to drive. It is very difficult to get below 30 mpg. The Fit is also priced very well. You dont need blind spot monitoring and a sunroof on a Fit. At 20 grand start looking at the Accord. The LX Fit has no equal.
They need to make a Honda Fit Type R. Championship white.
+jdmikeg4 with a Red Honda H logo!
Hell yeah!!!!!!
I got the 2016 EX I love it, i wouldn't give up the sun roof, touch start, smart remote. even the radio. Personally I dont mind a loud engine. Lane watch is nice, they just need to add it to both sides.
I totally concur! Even tho i added a cold air intake, it helps me focus more on the road when the engine is loud.
If I had a to buy a car for under $20 it would be a Honda fit. No doubt in my mind.
Como'n, for the left mirror y'all just got to move your ass a lil, no need for blind spot assistance...
Road noise goes away when you play tunes.
First world problems: the magic seat in my Honda fit squished my organic produce.
You guys BARELY talked about the Fit, the back seats, noise and then re-mentions about practicality. Should have been a 30 min show.
With the LX you're giving up 2 cheap tweeters, a moon roof, alloy wheels, and the right-side camera. About $200 worth of stuff, that they are asking $1000 for for.
Lanewatch is the best safety feature of this car. It works wonderfully when you need to merge right into the lane of an oncoming sweeper ramp to make the next exit just a few hundred feet beyond. Usually this is common in metro areas with bad, older, freeway designs. Also works great for inner city commuter driving where there are a lot of cyclists weaving in and out and makes for terrifying right intersection turns when some of these cyclists think they're immortal. My only complaint is that the Fit's camera isn't as good as the Accord's camera quality, especially at night, there's a huge, very huge, quality difference. Essentially, the Accord has a $200 camera sensor pod while the Fit they put a cheapo $30 unit in there.
oldtwins Q
I get a kick out of these nit pickers, I bought a used 2010 fit sport from Honda dealer, 72000 miles, I take pride in my cars, this one goes back and fourth to work, get between 36 to 40 mpg , not”noisy or tinny” just a nice car😍
I heard the reason why honda didn't have a camera on the left mirror is because they don't want to you to look at the screen when you are merging left and it's not safe I guess. I have a question my friend has a 2009 chevy aveo 5 and has transmission problem at 60,000 something miles. Is there any recalls on them? Do you know please let me know thank you
You can search for recalls at safercars DOT gov Have the VIN# ready.
For me its between the Fit and Sonic. Both are nice little sub-compacts.
A fair review. I'm still happy I got an EX Manual though! It really is a fun vehicle to drive.
***** I was also afraid about the negative reviews about the seats! But with recommendations from 2 cousins who drove Honda fits (driving in bad metropolitan traffic at that, meaning spending hours inside the vehicle, they did not complain of the seats.) I went ahead and purchased the vehicle. I'll be honest, on the 20 min drive home from the dealer my back hurt, it scared me. BUT THAT WAS THE FIRST AND ONLY INCIDENT. Perhaps it only needed some "breaking in" like new pair of shoes. Now I'm looking forward to a 5 hour drive to New York City or road trips in general. I am 5'5" BTW just so you know, and I love how I fit in the driver's seat.
i just got a 2016 ex, i am loving it. I am looking forward to the 12+ hour driver to ohio in a couple months
Same here 2017 honda fit ex 6 speed manual white pearl. The best choice i had made.
Since when did amenities surpass basic comfort? Almost seven years ago, I purchased a 1998 Civic EX Coupe with a 5-speed. The car is very nice and I simply love the double-wishbone suspension, however, the road/wind noise/seats are very taxing, especially on long trips. The problem is so bad, you can't hold a basic conversation with the rear passengers while on the freeway/highway, yes, it's that loud and intrusive. My other car, a 1985 Corolla GT-S (with the TRD/HKS exhaust) is much more pleasant to drive and the seats on that 30-year old Toyota, are light years ahead of the lousy ones in the Civic (a car that is 13 years newer). Just to give you an example of the poor level of comfort/support/design of the Civic, the headrest, angled away from me, is nearly five inches behind my head and offers no protection whatsoever. I pray I never get rear-ended in this thing, as whiplash would be the least of my problems. Sadly, I now know what journalists mean when they refer to the noise levels in Honda cars and it's not pretty.
This issue reminds me of the recent reviews of the new Mercedes-Benz CLA class. While it's a nice car for the money, people who are using this car as a starting point to get into the MB brand will never know how bad this car really is (in comparison to other MB cars). They also go on to say that a current MB owner would know that there was cost cutting at hand and would never consider purchasing it, a car that compares poorly with the comfort/engineering/quality & refinement that they have come to expect from one of the premier car builders of the world.
The old adage holds true :You don't know what you don't know.
And sadly, ignorance is NOT bliss. Till this issue is addressed, this will be the first and last Honda I purchase.
I'll have to respectfully disagree with you on the Honda Lane watch. I think it's great. When I used it (I do not own a Honda), I thought it was very intuitive and really helped change lanes with more ease and safety. Maybe a Honda is not the best car for this technology since most Hondas have smaller blind spots. Imagine how helpful this would be on a Camaro or any sports car for that matter.
How does the Honda Fit rate with consumers?
Very well. Consumer Reports like the expensive and luxurious cars more than what most consumers would actually buy.
I'd buy the LX as well. But if there was an Si or Type R...
2015 Ford Expedition and 2015 Lincoln Navigator are better than those GM three-row full-size SUVs. Not only do they have EcoBoost six cylinder engines putting out more torque, but have better towing capacities. Both are available on the Expedition EL or Navigator L, to compete with Suburban or Yukon XL. But make sure you run only Full Synthetic Oil on those EcoBoost engines, since Synthetic Oils are responsible for cooling the engine and turbo spindle responsible for spinning over 200,000 rpms.
NO. Keep the column shifter! It's so much more engaging than turning a knob... I bought a '14 Silverado instead of a '14 Ram because the Ram has a knob to put it in gear. Very un-truck like. People buy Suburbans/Tahoes BECAUSE they are truck-like.
They guy on the left and the guy on the middle are so awkward
+Apollo Silva the guy on the left is an engineer
Everyone needs to know that not every car is perfect and every car has pros and cons you can have a Porsche Macan but it's not going to ride as comfortably as a Lexus NX and the NX doesn't handle as well as the Macan it really comes down to personal taste
My respect for the opinion of a clown in a "Polo" Shirt is beyond anyone's capability of understanding. Mr Porsche?...I bet he calls it Poor Shah.
You do realize you said you respect him immensely, right? Here's yer sign, dupa.
I recently drove the Fit and it was a fun little city runabout. Not nearly as refined or quiet as the Focus or Mazda3 but it's also a couple of grand cheaper. I think it would make a great first car.
jimmelay71 Why not compare to the Mazda 2 and the Ford Fiesta. They are in the same segment. It is not a Civic.
It's my eleventh car and is still great.
Jimmelay71 ... not really a fair comparison. Fit is a SubCompact. The Focus and Mazda3 are the next class up ... Compact cars.
2019 Honda Fit cars are NOT at the dealer yet. Why? because of this... www.autonews.com/article/20180806/RETAIL/180809879/flooding-will-dent-honda-s-sales-earnings . I wanted to buy one, but I'm not sure if I'd end up with a car that has parts that were flooded. Also, when it comes to loud cars, I'm surprised why no one here has found the solution. The solution is this... www.dynamat.com/
Can a tall person drive a Honda Fit?
can. im 181cm (5feet 10') just fine
Ruth Yoerg my husband is 6'5" and no issues
Isn't it a good idea not to buy a first year model, no matter who makes it?
Actually sometimes the first year model will come with features or better equipment that is value engineered from later cars.
Mulcher should stop interrupting everyone and talking over them.
Hey, I'm an frequent viewer of your shows & I like your shows, a few questions that I have though.
The first is to do with MPG figures, your show always goes on about mpg and in most cases the numbers are in the low 30's, would you not be better arguing the case for diesel powered cars that consistently get 50 mpg (e.g BMW 640d gets to 60 in about 5.5 secs but also returns 50 mpg), I feel the power consumer reports has should be pushing car makers to give the US the great diesels there are out there.
My second question is on the matter of price, the majority of the cars seem to be a fraction of cost than they are in the UK, (e.g VW golf gti $25,000 to our £26,000, or the Merc GL350 bluetec $72,000 to our £60,000) it seems in my opinion the cars are cheaper to buy & run as fuel is cheap too, should the cost be as much an issue?? Thanks :)
i love the radio
This guys take a long time to get to the point. I don't have 17min available
I bought a honda fit new back 2013, sport with an auto trans, It could be the most reliable car back then, so robust, but downside is plenty of recalls, rated poor in crash test and body frame, but it scored high in CR and J.D.power 8.5 to 9.2, Now i purchased the 2019 porsche macan base for the predicted Stellar reliability, well see.
Nice reviews but would have appreciated CU's comments about why Macan stumbled in CU's high speed maneuvering tests. fyi This Swedish site ran into similar high speed wheel lock glitch which Porsche claims is to prevent the Macan from rolling over:
teknikensvarld.se/porsche-macan-behaves-strangely-in-the-moose-test-162276/
Thanks for comparing the macan to the x3. The Q5 rated well with CR and the macan is based off the q5 platform, is it worth the extra cost over the V6 supercharged q5? Does the macan have a better driving experience?
Olá gente, esse HONDA FIT realmente mereceria os R$65.000,00 paus, esse e completo, mas os que são vendidos aqui, sinceramente, fica difícil, eles acham que nós não sabemos o que é um carro completo, eles são inocentes .......
The is too small to survive a crash with a bigger vehicle.
My money goes for a used Accord/Camry. Bigger, safer,nicer to drive.
The Macan like all Porsches are usually good to drive, but are unreliable and way overpriced for Volkswagen engineering.
I know many people who swear by it. But I know way many more people who swear at it.
Having said that I think the Macan is better proportioned than its bigger brother the Cayanne, and much better looking than the horrendously ugly Panamera.
I couldn't agree more that the blind spot camera is VERY distracting. First of all, the Fit has excellent visibility out the right side of the car and I can't imagine missing something in this almost non-existent "blind spot." Personally, I think a driver-side blind spot camera would be more useful. Regardless, I wouldn't want one either way because every time I turn on the right blinker the touch-screen display changes to the camera view and I immediately and unconsciously take my eyes off the road to see what's just changed on the dash...even when I know it will happen ahead of time.
Currently drive a 2009 Chevy Cobalt. I need something reliable with good MPG, but want more power and a budget under 10k before trade in. Narrowed it down to 2005 Acura TL or 2005 Honda Accord Hybrid. Both are recommended and still considered reliable but should I consider one with over 100,000 miles on it? Thanks for the feedback. You guys and this show rock!
The Macan is an amazing automobile. The excellent choice for the Manhattan couple that can only have one automobile. I would love to rent one. For my money the X3 is a far better compromise. As long as you never drive a Macan most would find the X3 wonderful to drive.
It's $19k but with tax, license, fees, etc. comes out to $20.5k. Demand is high so can't haggle lower prices.
thanks for the fit info
In a recent episode, Gabe mentioned that there are 'problems' with the new Chrysler 200. Just wondering: what are the problems? I really like the styling and am interested in the car.
this may explain why the fit was delayed?
www.nytimes.com/2014/08/22/automobiles/2015-honda-fit-gets-second-chance-in-iihs-crash-test.html
This car is SO expensive here in Brazil. And doesn’t have half of the technology on board the US model. Hope Honda dies in Brazil because of their predatory policies.
I really wanted to see a Honda Fit plugin come out, but it looks like that plan was scrapped. I'm sure they had their reasons. I wonder if Honda would ever come out with a 3 wheel high MPG (electric) car.
Assuming the driver's position on the left side, the right side has a bigger blindspot. However if you simply adjust the right mirror a little bit to the right of where most people put it, you don't have a blind spot. Proper mirror adjustment is simpler and cheaper than a camera.
The cam on the right lets you see the right blind spot better while having cargo.
On the left there is no cargo. so in my opinion the right is better with the cam.
you should always shoulder check, full of cargo the cam lets you. If you don't need cargo room. Get a civic sedan not a fit.
"The guy lost a commission" No he didn't. He would have rather not dealt with consumer reports high standards and you most likely brought him down to a net price. Not worth his troubles.
I am glad that the guys that moderates this video is out of CR videos. It is the worst. Don't let the other guys finish when talking and comments are very personal bias. Good his gone.
Disagree with loud. Maybe the EX is better. Quieter than my 04 Civic.
hey what year/ model is that honda fit? I've noticed the rear bumpers are different than other honda fits I've seen.. Could anyone help me out?
My initial impression of the Honda fit was roomy and practical but cheap uncomfortable seats
the blind spot monitor.. it really doesn't make sense looking at the right at the screen when merging left. it was something honda thought of in the 2013 accord, so they just make the drivers side - side mirror convex so you can see more lanes.
CharlietoKind The camera is on the right mirror. So when you're looking at your right side for your blind spot, you can glance at the blind spot monitor while you look that direction
I wonder why you removed the ratings for A3 from your website.
I a slightly less rational world, should one spend a bit more and go for the golf TSI
Lx comes with 15" steel wheels, higher rpm at highway speed and less eye appealing
How many other cars have gas tank under front seat? Like Fit does.
Hi consumer reports! I'm looking for my forever car and mostly focusing my search towards CarMax. A couple of the cars that I really love is a Certified-Pre Owned Mercedes-Benz E350 4Matic and a new Kia Optima SX-L. My husband likes the 2014 BMW 328i but for the features we want, we're worried BMW will charge us for every little thing we want. Our budget is $40,000. Any input would be greatly appreciated and suggestions are always welcome. Thank you!
German companies always charge for every little thing. The certified pre-owned is a great idea because you don't have to be nickel-and-dimed and you can trust it will be more reliable than other used cars. MB cars have been more reliable as of late, so a couple year-old E350 is a good choice. The Kia Optima is a nice car but is not in the same league. If you have $40,000, put the E350 at the top of the list and maybe search around at a pre-owned Infiniti M.
Fit is a mini pickup
Its called the porsche macan as in con artist NOT as in can of coke.
On the other hand I've been merged into when another car moved into my lane to their right.
I had a Honda Fit 5 years ago and hated the engine noise. It seems they didn't fix it.
And all this time I thought the Prius was the most practical car. Tom might be wrong this time! :)
But, for some unknown reason, only assholes drive Pri...mmmmm...Prii? Priuses? It's a documented fact.
I like the fit but crazy road noise.
I always like to know if hybrid cars are good for highway driving or regular gasoline cars?
A diesel is better for the highway the only reason hybrids get good mpgs is because if regenerative brakes and batteries that power the cars around town highway speeds are to fast for electric driving for a standard hybrid and u don't really stop a lot so regen braking doesn't do much so all these helpful components that help around the city just add weight get a diesel for highway driving
My wife and I are looking for a larger car from our 03 Protege5. All the cars we are looking at are CR recommended. We are in the $6-8K range. Which would be better a 02-05 with about 90-100K miles or a 06-09 with 160-180K miles?
CR-V, Xb, Vibe, Element, Kia Soul and Foresters are what I am finding some are 5 spds (nice!)
Or automatics MDX, Mazda5, Pilot,
IMO, the Vibe is basically a Toyota Matrix with a cheaper price, so put that at the top of the list. Otherwise the CR-V and Forester should do quite well.
Whatever you find in that price range, make sure you have it inspected by a mechanic you trust. You're just not going to get a lot in the 6-8 range. If you can manage $10, you'll put yourself in a whole different quality level.
What’s the quietest cabin ride you can get for 25-30k? Or do you need to go beyond that range for a quiet ride?
I tried Dynamate to a 2011 odyssey it didnt really help.
Here is my take:
Japanese cars = Boring
Americas = gotten pricy for giving you less with un-refined engines.
Euro cars (appealing)= pricy with complex interiors and high maintenance cost.
Cars I’ve owned:
93 Camry
05 scion tc
05 Toyota Tacoma
05 Camry
2011 Odyssey
2014 Subaru Outback
Cars I’ve tested for quiet cabin:
Dodge Dart/charger = great job on wind noise, bad on road noise
Hunyadi genesis = highway speeds all the road noise comes in
Dodge Ram = Very quiet and the hemi is awesome! But to big for a daily ride in LA
i wasn't to impressed with the fit you cant use the center arm rest and the door is not padded and i get a stupid touch thing for the radio i'm going to stay with my fiesta and, why no si Honda?
......what?
Dear consumer reports what do u think of the 2012 Volvo s60 t6 or the s70 t5 my neighbors have these cars and I want to know which one is a better first car what about a Lexus gx470 2007 and a Lexus es350 2007 also which one would be the best first car. I am a very good driver and I am a 6 foot tall guy what about volvo reliability
Lexus reliability is way better. A new s60 does pretty well older ones don't. According to consumer reports. Org. For safety go with Volvo for comfort and reliability go with Lexus but get the gs. You can get it with a v6 and rwd or awd or you can get a v8. It's way sportier then the es.
If you have a lot of money to pay for repairs, get the Volvo. If you want reliability, buy a Lexus.
I would love to know what consumer reports thinks of Elio car.
I imagine they will wait to pass judgement until (if) it actually goes into production. And since it is classified as a motorcycle, I don't know if they would compare it with other actual cars.
Honda fit vs Ford transit connect
Please take turns tslking!!
I drive about 80 miles to work and back, mostly on the highway. I am considering buying a diesel car, preferably an AWD, late this year or early 2015. I have two young kids and I want to enjoy my drive. I have been told about 328d, Q5 TDI, and VW Touareg. I wonder what CR would suggest. I can spend about $55K and I don’t want too many reliability issues.
According to consumer reports u will get the money back and save some too with the BMW X5 35d. My friend has one nice ride but sounds like a diesel if u r outside the car inside sounds like a gas car
I would save money and buy a new VW Jetta Sportwagen TDI, manual if you can drive it. It's got everything you need other than AWD and is a very rational family car. If you'd prefer something more luxurious, then perhaps a Mercedes E250 4Matic.
Thanks. I didn't know about that. I only knew about the sedan Jetta TDI and didn't feel impressed with it. I imagine that the Sportwagon should be more similar to Golf in terms of quality. Thanks again.
Don't worry vw will buy your tdi back!
speak up..
The FIT has always been expensive and great handling but it rides like a brick.. I had a 2009 Fit Sport with 5 speed manual.. If it had a better suspension, sound deadening (could not hear my 3 years old talking to me) and the panoramic sunroof (like in Japan and UK) I would still have it... I upgraded to a 2010 GTI (6 speed) and never looked back...
I am not going back to Honda until they give the US (their biggest market) all the toys and great models that Japan and the UK get... Maybe Tom could talk some sense into Honda of America. Why does Hyundai/Kia give more options such as panoramic sunroofs and heated rear seats than Honda who has been selling int the US for decades longer. This is especially ironic since Honda gives these same options to Japan and the UK
The US and Japan are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT markets when it comes to cars. Cars are more of a novelty in Japan, which allows companies like Honda to add more features (heated rear seats) in the vehicles and sell them at higher price points. In the US, consumers are more price conscious, which results in companies having to not offer certain features in order to meet a price point that is acceptable to potential buyers. That's just the way it is.
Ryushi I understand what your are saying. I am not sure it applies to Honda. First of Honda sells to many other markets such as the Europe and the UK with Panoramic sunroofs and heated rear seats.
To your point the American car market is very competitive. You know who sells cars in the United States with Panoramic sunroofs Toyota, Nissan, Ford and GM. Toyota and Honda compete also most head to head. The Toyota Venza and Prius have had Panoramic sunroofs for years. Now the Highlander has a Panoramic roof. Toyota had bluetooth in their lower tier cars long before Honda. Hyundai Kai sell thousands upon thousands of cars with Panoramic sunroofs and rear heated seats. Most of all Honda makes cars in the United States. They don't have an excuse like Mazda that we are a small company so we can only ship so many cars to the US. Honda also sells the Pilot in Canada with heated rear seats. Honda has made the choice to sell inferior cars options to the United States and it is costing them sales. While them maybe be selling a lot, imagine if they had their share plus Hyundai/Kia's share. Honda makes superior engines and cars overall but, Hyundai/Kai is definitely willing to giving the options..
So once again I understand your point, it just doesn't apply to Honda of America. Honda's let wait until the technology is fully adopted by every other manufacturer and then wait two more years to implement it strategy is not winning them any points. They have gone from being very innovative to being sluggish and bloated. That is the way it really is.
"That is the way it really is."
Except it isn't. You mentioned Toyota. Look at what they are offering that is supposed to compete with the FIT (the Yaris). You can't get a moonroof at all with that car. Additionally, you can't get leather, navigation, heated front seats, and many other features that are available in the Fit. The same is effectively true for the Nissan Versa Note. It's not about whether or not the Fit is competitive with a Pathfinder or Highlander, its about the Fit being competitive within its class, which it is (it's pretty much at the top of its class with the new update).
As far as the Pilot is concerned, again, different market. The Pilot (as well as the MDX) has a higher starting price in Canada, which is why it gets additional features that the US version doesn't get. The cold winters of Canada is also a factor.
Ultimately, you are entitled to your opinion, but the fact is that Honda isn't selling "inferior" cars (if they were, their sales wouldn't be nearly as good as they are). You are also off the mark with regards to Honda being innovative. Within the past 2-3 years, they have developed a series of dual-clutch transmissions that are the first of their kind, advanced hybrid awd systems, and advanced collision warning and mitigation systems. That's the reality, and only haters and the ignorant are unable to recognize it.
You are correct about the 2015 Fit offers more options than comparable models. It is a shame Honda does not follow suit for the rest of its line.
My statements have been overall about Honda the company and all the product lines not just the Fit. I was not comparing the fit to the Highlander. My point was Toyota is not afraid to release cars with Panoramic sunroofs in this cost conscious country. For that fact neither is Ford, Nissan, GM and Hyundai/Kia. My point to your statement that the United States is a different market does not hold up when other car companies are selling cars with Panoramic sunroofs and heated seats in the United states. You seemed to be well informed please answer this question " why is Honda the only large volume manufacturer not to sell a single car in the United States with a Panoramic Sunroof or heated rear seats?
Also you misunderstood my point I believe Honda makes great cars. I have owned 7 Hondas in my life. My point was Honda of America gives inferior option choices, not inferior cars.
As far as innovations.. You state
"Within the past 2-3 years, they have developed a series of dual-clutch transmissions that are the first of their kind, advanced hybrid awd systems, and advanced collision warning and mitigation systems."
Other car companies have had these technologies for years. Just one example Volkswagen has been selling their Dual Clutch Transmission in the US since 2006 with the GTI. Honda is just selling a DCT within the last couple of years and you think that is innovative. The new accord hybrid system is lot better that than the old one was. I think Toyota has been considered the Hybrid leader in the United States for the last decade. Your innovations are what I call catching up to the rest of the industry. The SH AWD was an innovation when it came a decade ago. Lastly people with weak arguments often refer to name calling to divert attention away from their weak position.
So I will leave it at this. Honda makes great engines. Honda makes good cars. The accord has been on Car and Driver's best list decades. Do I like their business decisions on available options to the United States as compared to other markets? No. Will I take my business else. Yes
I have never understood the sunroof. What good is a huge window on top of the car allowing more solar energy (heat) into the car? Plus, they leak and, if they're motorized, it's just one more thing to break down. And heated rear seats, hell, heated seats in general? JFC, grow a pair.
The fit is wayyyy overpriced especially at top trim! New cars are a waste of money
What an idiot......
The Fit LX has even LESS sound deadening.
Except it doesn't.......
No it doesn't
lmbo, Honda doesn't put more sound dampening in the Fit based upon trim (lx, ex, etc).
HONDA AND OTHER COMPANIES SHOULD HAVE THESE BLIND SPOT CAMERAS IN BOTH MIRRORS
Rather take the bus than drive a FIT...
Your loss. Most people love the Fit, so............
Ryushi Shiratori Looks homosexual...
Only to those who are insecure about their masculinity/sexual orientation, such as yourself.
Ryushi Shiratori Whatever you say buddy. Fit still looks gay as hell...
*****
#troll