Thanks for watching! I hope you walk away with a better understanding of the Thalmor's actions and goals in Tamriel, and why and how they came to be. Please tell me if you liked the video, if you didn't or anything in between. Feel free to follow any of the links provided below to help the channel grow. Membership: ruclips.net/channel/UC9-UP9OkbAGlZhB3BZ5TzBQjoin Twitch: twitch.tv/emerdareloth40 Discord: discord.gg/dhHyqJh4
Wanted to add a weird lore bit there an argument that the dark elves are more closely related to Aldmer as in theory they still look like the Chimer originally did aside from the from the color change Azura afflicted them with.
You should consider making a video on the Dwemer. This video placed a particularly interesting interpretation of the events: ruclips.net/video/fEE9XyqGPys/видео.htmlsi=RDpdJ4fDCyCBYlnq
Random thing, as a Historian myself, I really appreciate the way you put things at the start about generalization, and used an example without injecting your own opinion into it. Great stuff and a breath of fresh air to see communicated well!
I wholeheartedly agree. As another member of the guild (Late Middle Ages-Early Modern Era here), I was watching his videos and I was thinking to myself "Damn, this guy talks like an Historian". He exposes the information incredibly well and makes a 50 min. video appear short. Congrats to your work, it's magnificent. I pity myself for not finding your channel earlier.
I found Chancellor Ocato a very likeable character in Oblivion. He basically kept the Empire together during Oblivion's events and after. Not because of race or political views, but because he felt it was his duty to keep the Empire going, as the Empire was what stood between its citizens and the chaos and monsters that would prey on them. And Ocato never tried to flee. He remained on his post even when the Imperial City was besieged by Dagon's legions. That's what I feel the Empire stood for. And Ocato was the embodiment of the Imperial spirit.
100 percent. We might see the empire fall during the next game or we might not. But they'll likely go down swinging against the Thalmor or anything that threatens the lands they govern.
The altmer want to annihilate or enslave every race in tamriel then use all the towers to kill the rest of the races and ascend to godhood. Ya that's a little more extreme then what the dunmer ONCE did to the argonian people and stopped completely.
Fantastic work. Even though TES is situated in a game universe, you’ve shown how it compels some of the best storytelling in modern media. The way you highlighted the Thalmor’s political dynamics and drew real-world parallels adds depth that goes beyond typical gaming narratives. It shows just how rich and thought-provoking this universe can be. Well done.
@@c.antoniojohnson7114 Well, if we go by Redguard lore, it’s basically a genetic trait to commit genocide on mer. Which I, as a Nord enjoyer, find extremely based.
Please do cover the Tower theory! As a long time UESP staffer and lore nerd, I'm always a fan of seeing how other people synthesize the available sources.
I'm curious how anyone could look at the blatant lore related to this theory and NOT take it seriously. I agree with Planet here that it's probably going to be a big focus of the next game, considering how few towers are left.
Firstly, I like to say I'm sorry about your loss . may your dog rest in peace. Wanted to say I really enjoyed your lore video it was very well done and formatted, and I hope to see more to come. It was really enjoyable to watch
Starting off the video, I do find it amusing (in a good way) that you have added a disclaimer that you don't agree with their politics and also went out of your way to dispel rumors of High Elves That kind of gesture shows how much you truly love the lore, I'd say. A casual like me would never think twice about that. Looking forward to the rest of the watch 👏
@@DragonFruitXVI If you choose to view it negatively, sure. That is your choice. I like to see it in a positive manner, that the source of this information I am digesting is an actual passion project from a talented young man. Whether I agree with everything he posts now or in the future, I can at least appreciate the grind and work he puts in to pursue something important to him. That to me makes it a credible source at the very least.
sorry to hear about ur loss man. I have my dog sitting in my lap rn and that hit me hard. Heres to hoping that henry is in doggo heaven where theres treats everywhere and endless space to run around in :')
Henry, you left this world the same day one of my horses did. Lady was born on my farm when i was 7 years old. Im 30 years old, now. Although their corporeal forms may have left this realm, Henry and Lady will live on through us and the lives of every person they touched. Rest In Peace Henry.
I understand that the Altmer aren't a monolith and that racism is bad, but I have a ton of fun RPing someone who is genuinely hateful and seeing if the NPC elves can convince me to change my mind. Lots of fun to have that as character development.
@@jaredkelch1431 Nah, not in the case of the Tribu- wait, hang on. Okay, fine, but an elf definitely wasn't responsible for the Oblivion Cri- shit, that one, too? Okay, there's no way an elf was responsible for Manni- wait, he _WAS_ an elf!?!?
The Tribunal were forced to respond to threats as the daedra did not care to protect them, only use them for making fun of the Endavour. All that they did was in response to the danger presented by Shor and man (by way of the nords the dwemer and the resultant Empire) The Oblivion Crisis was similarly provoked by the metaphysical decline the Empire caused, and Mankar Camoran was not the author but a pawn in the scheme of things, similarly to the Tribunal Mannimarco had beef with Arkay, another man who ‘became a divine’ like Tiber Septim
One of my favourite ways to play skyrim is as an Altmer dissident fleeing the Thalmor, it perfectly explains why you'd be trying to illegally cross into Skyrim and also adds additional context as to why the Thalmor send assassins after you. You could also argue it's a good explanation for why the imperial captain insists you go to the block despite Hadvar's protest given that the Thalmor are in Helgen at the time.
@@Prodigi50 They ARE elves. Azura made them look like cats for some reason. She has a strange tendency for dramatically altering the appearance of entire races of elves.
@@tzaphkielconficturus7136 That origin isn’t definitive. The Khajiit were there way before the descendants of the Aldmer. They might be related to the Bosmer but that’s questionable. Whether Azura did anything to them is also questionable.
@@Prodigi50 Look, when one pf the Velothi Daedra says they physically transfigured a whole race of elves, I believe them. They seem to do it a lot, between the chimer, the dunmer, the orsimer, and the kahjit.
This is probably the most compassionate and gentle take of the elves, Aldmeri dominion, and the Thalmor. Despite all the horrorable things, years of pain, and adversity committed or endured it's hopeful to see and hear that there are altmer who still detest and rebel against the thalmor for all they've done.
@TheThinWhiteDukestar It is definitely super interesting. I didn't want it to muddle with the actual facts of the Thalmor in this video, though, since, as I understand it, it's mostly out-of-lore statements that it's built on.
@@theemerdareloth oh absolutely it's reasonable to not flood this video with it. talking about the thalmor does make for a good jumping off point though. I've had my own theories about the towers for a while but definitely keen to see an in depth coverage on them
Altmers are my favorite ES race simply because they seem rude or snobbish but in reality, in their culture, honesty to the point of a lack of social skills is valued. Everyone in high society might be stuck up, otherwise, and will waste years trying to test the waters for friendships before actually speaking their minds. I like to imagine that the way Thalmors speaks of their fascist discourse is simply their actual belief systems, laid bare. Nothing more or less. And a good altmer friend would probably tell you when you are wrong. They are the "no bullshit" race, and are all kinda in the spectrum for a special interest.
Hmmm interesting that you compare the altmer with autistic people. As a spectrum born being myself I tend to veer towards non humans. But mostly I tend to go towards orcs. Simply because being able to fight kinda became a demand in my youth. You get ostracized when different. But when different in a smaller town the group bullying could be wild. Sure I am likely as unapolagetically direct as the thalmor. But I identify with the ostracized more.
Shoutout High Chancellor Octato he's gotta be top 17 Altmer even on a bad day also showing up to work ruling all of Cyrodil while stoned is also pretty sick.
Sorry to hear about your dog, man, that's the worst. Great video. As an avid consumer of this type of lore video, I can definitely say you're by far the most coherent and effective creator on youtube when it comes to elder scrolls history and theory. It's almost inspired me to take my own crack at it, lol. Thanks, man! Best of luck to you.
I've always had a strong disdain for the high elves in TES while still adoring the other elves, and they all have their own major moral issues. Really it comes down to that snobbish attitude, and then the thalmor's machinations to bring the downfall of all races that aren't elf. The whole "it's our birthright to rule this land and be lauded as superior to all others" thing that makes me dislike them. The dark elves' society permits assassination, slavery, and various other morally dark things. The wood elves permit cannibalism. The dwemmer abused their snow elf kin and took their sight (that's debatable if it was a morally good or evil thing to do however.) I can't recall much about the snow elves, however the point is that in spite of some of the *really* horrible practices of some of the elven races, the high elves still strike that chord for a lot of people and make people hate them, and I'm betting it's all due to attitude. That's what does it for me at least.
Don't forget the Ayleids, who had literal living flesh gardens made from humans who they kept alive with magic for the purposes of watching them suffer forever. They got so heinous that the Divines had to send Pelinal to vibe check them. They did not pass the vibe check.
@@varietywiarriorHonestly I see the case against Tiber Septim. But even by his time so many of the Kingdoms Elf or not were into some truly bad things. Even the human kingdoms were often infighting. Imperial rule stabilised them to a large degree although not entirely
@@samuelbishop1701 I think a large part of that is simply how long Elves tend to live. Sure centuries give you time to truly master a given art/hobby/warcraft, it also gives plenty of time to lead to boredom and depravity. We've seen that in a lot of different IP. Take the cruelty, arrogance, violence, and bloodshed that the mannish races exhibit, and then add a couple centuries of boredom on top of it. For example, take the Nord's xenophobia and dial it up to 10. I think that's why most Elven peoples see themselves as betters, it's simply the skill and knowledge that comes with time. Then throw some religious practices on top of that and you have a recipe for disaster. A lot of people hate the Altmer (or Ayleids and Dunmer) but I find them genuinely interesting because of the implications surrounding their very natures. The Elder Scrolls world would be a lot less vibrant without our arrogant knife ears.
@@delta6704 I think he's presuming you have encountered the details elsewhere on other videos or media, so it would be redundant on his part to repeat what you (may) already know.
I would love to see your take on the Towers as they and their possible connection to Thalmor goals are probably my favorite bit of contemporary ES lore
It's definitely an interesting theory! It's very reliant on out of Lore statements as I understand it, so I wanted to leave it out of this as I was going for a more historical analysis.
I would argue that the Blades are potentially just as malicious as the current Thalmor regime. Read up on Blades lore and you'll see this is the case. And, in understanding their real nature and purpose it irks me a bit the player character is more or less obliged to join in and become a prime agent in almost all TES games to sow division and discord in the name of the emperor. There's a reason why the Blades are the arch-nemesis of the Thalmor: they mirror each other.
I mean, yeah, they're a clandestine arm of the Empire that does all kinds of shady cloak and dagger stuff. They have zero accountablity and are just a nebulous void that tax money goes into, never to be seen again. Sounds a lot like the CIA, and you can bet those dudes are malicious.
It's really a neat case study in how political extremes basically mirror each other, it's so neat that this series has such potential to educate people on politics, love it
It's genuinely horrifying how accurate they made the thalmor in respect to past fascist movements (and even modern ones like in my country), really reflects life doesn't it
Racism has always been a big part of the elder scrolls lore and very often can be connected with real events. The Alessian Empire at some point (Pierre l'Ermite first Crusade kinda), The Septim Empire (Rome Empire), The argonian/Dunmer relationship (American Slavery), the Thalmor (III Reich), even in TES II and III Orcs were treated the same way as golbin or Troll (1900's+ Racism). Very good episode today !
It scares me how familiar this is given the things happening in the world. Everyone wants "to good back to the old days" while failing to understand those days...and instead use awful methods to dominate and force their ideologies onto others.
Really reminds me of these nostalgia fueled movements we have in my nation, everyone fails to realize they were young then and didn't understand how bad things were around them
Literally never encountered this anywhere, even online. You're crazy. The good old days were the 90s/00's. You could buy a house on one income, music and movies were better, and nobody was whining about identity politics.
Did yall know the Thalmor have been kicked out of 109 provinces yet some still think they're good for their country? And did you know the amount of Thalmor supposedly slain when Tiber Septim brough the Numidium to Summerset Isle is mathematically impossible and likely exaggerated? Cant say any of that though or the Thalmor will come and take you from your house in the middle of the night
@@woohoomusic5098 the thalamor are shifty, they spend a lot of money to push corrupt nobles to do what they want, they also say their race was chosen by the aedra
This, and all your videos on the elder scrolls, are such a delight. Though this one in particular really shines for me. Taking a "historian's" approach to the lore and sources found in (and sometimes outside) the core games works so well for the elder scrolls. Fantastic presentation, writing, and delivery. I will be greedily gobbling up your future work.
Also, I do sort of, in a grim way, hope that in ES6 (if it ever comes out), the Thalmor have won and have conquered Cyrodiil, purely because thats the most fascinating and cool option to take the story and would be the first time we've had a mainline Elder Scrolls game without an Empire as the preeminent force, and would allow us to see more of the Thalmor; whether they want to make them more sympathetic and normal, or even more comically evil, they'd be really cool as a villainous force and a paradigm shift on Tamriel. Honestly seeing internal power struggles in the Dominion would also be pretty cool, with different levels of radicalism and different people with different goals
elves are usually portrayed as kinda stuck up and snobbish the thalmor take that to the extreme. They have single-handedly soured my view of elves in most media.
That's completely understandable, The Thalmor are awful people. I really enjoy the lore of all of the Elves in the Elder Scrolls, though, and I think Bethesda made a mistake in making things so black and white in Skyrim; Thalmor evil, men good.
@@theemerdareloth I think they attempted to combat the "elves bad men good" thing with the stormcloaks, they're... really not great people. The very first scene you see when entering windhelm is stormcloak nords threatening to pay a dark elf woman a "visit" at night but the stormcloaks are written to be sympathetic, to be understandable. They want religious freedom! they want to fight against the racism and fascism of the Thalmor! Just ignore that the Stormcloaks are just as racist as the Thalmor... The Thalmor on the other hand you really have to go digging to understand why they're the way they are, and even when you do, you can't really find anything to sympathize with. Mostly because of the WW2 analog, but also because we the viewers aren't elves. Why would we as humans see a race of alien people that want to dominate mankind as good?
I just don't understand that the Thalmor are seen as so reprehensible in the Elder Scrolls community, but the Empire of Tiber Septim, and Tiber Septim himself don't get a similar treatment by the community despite them acting just as morally reprehensible.
@@DotKom01The guys fighting for economic freedom and sovereignty from an empire that's actively failing them are hardly the bad guys. Their tax septims are funding a regime that actively seeks to destroy their religion and culture. I'm not going to pretend that every Stormcloak is a perfect angel, much less Ulfric himself(I mean, walking in and shouting a teenager to death? For real? Couldn't have handled that better?), but their cause is justified in my opinion. And that's coming from a big fan of the Empire since Morrowind.
As an ESO player, the main thing that comes to mind about the 4e Thalmor (Yes I will continue to refer to them as such) is their parallels to the Veiled Heritance, which in some ways were even more extreme and were against even the Bosmer and the Khajiit. A lot of the mentalities are the same and even went through several destabilisation campaigns in Auridon and Grahtwood to try and bring down Ayrenn. They even infiltrated an academy training Thalmor officers which I like to think would have been the seeds of the 4e Thalmor. The lore states the Thalmor always existed, if as a fringe faction within the isles. As for Ayrenn, while her Dominion has a veil of Elven Supremacy to it, there's also a lot of implication about her being tortured at the hands of Abnur Tharn. If so, then I can understand her views a lot more as that would sour my views on people too. There's also a certain tragedy to the 4e Thalmor, from a Bureau of Aldmeri Heritage to tearing down their traditions in pursuit of power. The 4e Thalmor are a far cry from their origins.
Every time I watch a Elder Scrolls Lore Video, I gotta say that the old writers really did put a lot of effort. I wish Bethesda of Old wrote Fallout 4, the Post-Oblivion, pre- Skyrim launch Bethesda.
Would be interesting too if it turns out between ES 5-6 another faction of high elves completely against the thalmor team up with the redguards against the thalmor. I have a feeling we will be fighting the thalmor as a main enemy in ES6, or maybe by the start of ES6 the thalmor are in shambles because of the revived dark brotherhood at work.
New to the channel but really appreciate your nuanced view of history’s (both fictional and real world) cause and effect refreshing. Keep up the good work. Subscribed.
It's all a matter of perspective. If you read about the lore behind the Altmer it would make perfect sense why they would want to drive out the people which came from different continents out of their home, and why they believe they are better than everyone (because they actually are)
Because of a meta strategy in TES II Daggerfall, the agent Uriel Septim VII sent to the Iliac Bay, who, through the use of the staff of Tiber Septim and the Mantella, retroactively assured Tiber Septim achieving Chim, was usually a High Elf. The strategy was simple. You took weaknesses to be able to level up faster when making your character. So you took weakness to paralysis, but then High Elves were immune to paralysis in that game, so it cancelled out the weakness, but kept the exp bonus. Your character is a very good friend of Uriel VIII. He himself admits as much. Asking you to help ease the suffering of another friend, King Lysandus, who has departed, but is unable to rest. I like to imagine that the Emperor's agent is stuck in a stasis after the Warp in the West, but is bound to show up again. Weak to paralysis, but immune to paralysis. Ready to wake up and begin a journey for the kingdom of Daggerfall once again, but now it's been over 200 years since Uriel Septim VII, a man who considered them his friend, was murdered. And his Empire lay in ruins.
As I was listening to the lecture about how the not all elves are like the Thalmor I literally discovered a bunch of them abducting a random individual in Skyrim 💀
Bro what world are we living in that you have to say you are not supporting any political or religious moments in a fantasy series In the words of Tim Robinson, “WHAT DID THEY DO TO US!”
@@theemerdareloth people are alway worse in fantasy/fictin, just think of the things they willingly do in GTA, playing the dark brotherhood instead of destroying it, etc. Taking it too serious on any side is purely absurd, yet that is what we have become
So the civil was caused by the Thalmor by banning Talos worship. They knew this would sow dissent among the Nords, leading to the civil war in Skyrim, one of 3 remaining provinces in the Empire who the Thalmor are at war with. Clever bastards. You even see them trying to persuade General Tulius to spare Ulfric at the beginning of the game because a weak and divided skyrim is what they want. The Stormcloaks aren't wrong in their want to worship Talos. Sadly though, they think the Empire is the enemy instead of the Thalmor. Alvor, the blacksmith of whiterun says that the Empire were totally fine with people worshiping Talos at home, but that it was when Ulfric started making it a big deal, forming the stormcloaks and killing the high King, that the Empire finally had to step in or risk there being another Great War with the Thalmor. I dont know if Ulfric is a useful idiot, or actually is in cahoots with the Thalmor, but either way im glad that not all Nords are falling for the anti empire propaganda and seeing the big picture of the Thalmor being the common enemy. As Alvor said, "Nords have always been allies to the empire, and aren't known for being fair-weather friends" or something like that. Basically that Nords are tough, and to abandon the empire in their time of need would be a bitch move. Especially because if the Stormcloaks win, the Thalmor will come for them next.
Well, it's not like the Stormcloaks can reasonably overthrow the Thalmor. Winning independence against the empire is a much more reasonable goal than invading Summerset. Tiber Sceptim needed a super weapon to achieve this, Ulfric Stormcloak could never accomplish it.
To be fair, the Empire has not done anything to kick TAD out of Cyrodiil for over 20 years. If You support the legions, you will find that the Empire allows the Thalmor to conduct investigations and arrest Nords freely in Skyrim. All Talos worshippers are arrested, jailed and maybe killed. If You're Nord, how would You feel seeing a fellow Kinsman getting led to their slaughter in your own land... Ulfric is right in this regard, the Empire won't bleed for their Terrorities. Too weak to govern. Everything seem setup to support the Imperials, not the other Provinces. I think the DB is supposed to support the StormCloaks, and his story is meant to be the next the Empire. Considering He is the most Powerful Character alive.
So firstly I wanna thank you for making what is honestly the best lore video on the Altmer I've seen in a long time, especially one that covers the Thalmor from an objective perspective. I know this is a very unpopular opinion, but I've been radicalised to the point where I think Tiber Septim is the most evil man of the Second Era, and is responsible directly for the radical ideology that would lead the Thalmor to transform the Altmer from a flawed, but peaceful and isolationist race to an aggressive, genocidal and chauvinistic force that we see in Skyrim. You have to keep in mind that the Numidium was basically a nuke, that killed innumerable numbers of innocent Mer and permanently scarred the lands of Alinor, on an aggressive war the Empire started. Theres not really a way to justify this, in my opinion, the Empire started the war, despite the fact the Dominion posed no threat to the unification of most of Tamriel, then came centuries of occupation and tyranny by a race that considered them to be lesser Infidels, and as a final insult, they turned the man who destroyed their peaceful, ancient kingdom and deified him in their faith. To be fair, the Empire was a relatively tolerant force, and likely could have led to a better Summerset if given a long-enough time, but when they actually needed aid from the Empire; the one that destroyed, subjugated, and disarmed them, the Empire simply abandoned them, leaving Summerset at the destructive impulses of the Daedra and causing incredible amounts of death and destruction, the Empire that was supposed to unite and protect them abandoned them the first time they actually needed them. So of course, people would flock to the faction that glorified the Altmer, one that promised them there would never be another invasion and desecration of Summerset; because unlike the old Kingdom, they would take action to kill any attempts by men in their infancy, and ensure that Mer would no longer leave the mainlanders to their own whims, but force peace and ensure they would never face another humiliation. This isn't to justify the Thalmors actions, of course, but moreso to explain why they exist in my view, as a natural response to Mannish aggression by a culture that has already had these bad impulses. TL;DR: TIBER SEPTIM IS THE CAUSE OF ALL EVIL IN THE WORLD
I know you said there was no other sources in what happened when Tiber invaded summerset but there are ones that state the reason the isle was taken in an hour is Tiber activated the Numidium, causing a dragon break, what was an hour was recorded as an entire era’s worth of horror to the altmer, as in time passed like that during the dragon break, during this break Tiber assassinated unloyal families to his regime and replaced them with loyal vassals, the underking furious with Tiber shattered the numidium and the mantilla was cast into an ocean
Great video, thank you so much for it! I'm part of the Elder Scrolls storytelling community, wich consists of people telling their own stories using mostly modded Skyrim game with the actual game as a background and posting on Instagram. I've always played as Emperial and in my stories I always reforced the idea that the Thalmor was the real enemy. Congrats on the excelent work and greetings from Brazil! ;)
Good video! It's very funny that they they drew so much inspiration from World war 2 for the Thalmor when the obvious historic moment that comes to mind to be stealing from is either the Parthian Persians or the Arab Conquests under Muhammed where you could've given the Thalmor a lot more depth and character. You could even keep the Tiber Sepem controversy plots! I guess they wanted an Indiana Jones style bad guy though.
I love how the Anuad puts it, the Wandering Ehlnofey came upon Old Ehlnofey and expected to be welcomed. They Were Not. Anyway a War broke out, somehow, wouldn’t know where to start figuring that out
Don't stop making lore videos, brother. They're actually what brought me here, and I happen to also be a big fan of card games. It really is the best of both worlds, though I really wish they hadn't abandoned ESL; it's such a great game, and I'll take more TES where I can get it. 💕
Awesome video! Bosmer deep dive when? Bosmer have always been my favorite elves in ES for 2 reasons; my first ES game was Morrowind and watching Fargoth "sneak" through Seyda Neen cracks me up every time, and the Green Pact is a unique twist on the wood elf trope. Loving plants so much that you're exclusively carnivorous lol
If you truly loved plants though, you'd eat fruits and seed-bearing vegetables. That is the intent of the plant, to produce the edible fruits and veggies so animals take them, eat them and thus spread the seeds to new locations.
There's something about Skyrim that I don't feel like much people are discussing much. It's the parallel that the Thalmor have with... the Stormcloaks. Sorry Stormcloaks lovers but I can't help to draw huge comparisons between the two, one might even say they're mirrors of one another. Their upbringing and goals are nearly similar with hints of racial/religious motivations each, depending on which member of their faction you speak to. They both rose to power from hatred towards their enemy and the government that appeared weak by surrendering to said enemy. If you side with the Stormcloaks in the civil war, you end up doing what the Thalmor did in the Summerset Isles, you helped Ulfric oust every local political opposition to the faction and thus ensures his rise to the title of High King at the upcoming moot. And of course they'll both manage to do that "legally" from their local customs much to the dismay of Nords and Altmers that hates their guts. Lastly while the Thalmor hates Men and Beast races, the Stormcloaks meanwhile hates Mer and Beast races. ...Oh hey look at that they both hate Beast races. Another thing they have in common. The only big difference is that we know the Stormcloaks are at least in it to free their province from the Thalmor while the other faction clearly wants to cleanse Tamriel of races they don't like. But... who's to say a successful stormcloak faction won't aspire to conquer other regions in the future. Like Ysgramor and his companions founded Skyrim after cleansing the surface of the Snow Elves... At least that's how I see things, there's no reason to only like one faction but condemn the other.
@@theemerdareloth I really admire that nuance. He's not just a good guy who unified Tamriel and become a god. The fact that the Thalmor actually have a legitimate case, however poorly portrayed in Skyrim, is what I love about TES. Same thing with the story of Lord Nerevar and the Tribunal. Were the Tribunal Saviors of Morrowind or Usurpers? Btw, R.I.P Henry
@@dabash1039 Thank you. And definitely! It is a very morally grey area in the lore. The men are typically seen as the good guys on Tamriel, but they are certainly not perfect. The Thalmor have a right to be mad, but as soon as they start doing ethnic purging and political coups, my willingness to think of them positively starts to fall. I do think it'd be cool if we got to join them in Elder Scrolls VI as an evil option, but I doubt it.
I just discovered your channel. I'm a huge TES fan and i am obsessed with the way you frame your content and produce it. I'm not sure how else to get into contact with you, but I'm a voice actor & would love to voice some of the cut-in clips for you if you should ever need some. I'm absolutely enamored with this content. Its exactly what i have been searching for from TES. Viewed through an objective, historical, and realistic sense that reads more like academic study than a simple discussion of the lore. Thank you for making this content. I am amazed and ever grateful that you have this channel. Much love!
Thanks for making this video. As my first contact with Elder Scrolls was the Skyrim trailer (the original one), and my geek background as a Star Wars fan, I tend to lean more in favor of the Nords (and Stormcloak _Rebellion_ ). However, this consolidation of information is very helpful. This is definitely widening my view of the Altmer. If you could do a similar video/series on the Dunmer and their systems of government (pre-TES3, TES3, post-TES3), that’d be cool.
It may not be subtle, but it was actually a great idea to write the Thalmor this way. It gives the fanbase a proper enemy, and promotes a morally righteous campaign to defeat that enemy which keeps us excited for the chance to do so in future installments.
Having finally finished the video.... 3 days after starting it. I think the Thalmor are.... interesting, to say the least. Since to look into the questions posed towards the end, I think the Thalmor ask a question that most people are simply not comfortable with answering "Is the ability of your people to survive and thrive more valuable to you than someone else's?" and while most people's kneejerk reaction is "No" history doesn't show that to be the case, nor would I argue that's even the morally correct answer. The Thalmor are directly compared to the Nationalist Germans in the 1930s often, and while we can always sit here and just say "Evil!" I think this video does a fantastic job of establishing that evil actions often have reason and origins. The lesson at the beginning about Generalization applies even to those with beliefs and ideas that we consider evil, and dehumanizing them only makes those ideas fester. This idea is showcased incredibly well by the Thalmor, with their motives being based in vengeance for the humiliation they faced at the hands of Tiber Septim.
Na, I hated that Chancellor because he refused to send aid to Bruma. He could have easily dispatched a squad of Imperial City Guardsmen or a patrol of Imperial Legionaries to Bruma but he chose not to.
Great video! And like you hinted at, would definitely love to see a video on the first dominion and Ayrenn! (( I'm extremely biased towards her in ESO, because imo Queen Ayrenn is simply a good, genuine person. )) While she retains that 'we are better' altmer supremacy mindset, she wants to use it to help others do better, rather than to use it to stone fist rule the other races. Not 'we are better and so we should rule above everyone else and everyone just has to deal with it' but 'we are better and so we should rule and help guide them'. She's done things unbefitting of Altmer nobility (( and especially royalty )) and instead of simply following the old customs she went out and saw the world and let her experiences shape her views rather than old Altmer customs and tries her best to change Summerset to fit the new world and to give other races a chance as well, because during her travels she's seen the potential, and even befriended other races despite her status and race. She doesn't give up despite the opposition from her own people and stays firm in wanting to lead by good example. She is always seen making honest efforts to create ties with the Khajit and Bosmer, and is open to talking with the other leaders with the vestige acting as a bridge to smoothen things out. She's willing to listen, talk and compromise. And you just really get the sense that she does it all from a good place. (( which makes it so much worse that the following aldmeri dominions were raised from less good places, considering the thoughts of unity she started it with ))
I really have to hand it to the Skyrim mod Legacy of the Dragonborn for really showing me personally one of the most likeable Altmer characters with their museum curator. It was actually pretty neat to see how his long life and access to really old culture during his childhood made him fun and informative to be around. Plus he let me skip his explanations if it got to be too technical, real champ for that. Now as for the Thalmor themselves, my only regret with my interactions with them is that there's too few of them. I want a Great War mod that lets me fight during that conflict, all of the NPCs that you hear from who survived it are just heartbreaking in their descriptions. I detest Ulfric as a person but I love his monologue when you first enter the Palace of the Kings, even if the times I side with the stormcloaks I end up making him "unessential" if you get my meaning and pretend to proclaim myself as a new better High King. Maybe we'll have a great war 2 in ES6. The Redguards seemed to have proven that the Dominion can be beaten even without extra support from other provinces.
With what we know of the Thalmor, I feel like they should've been the main villains of TES 5 instead of Alduin and the dragons. Don't get me wrong, I am grateful of Skyrim for making me an Elder Scrolls fan. The more I explore older depictions of TES lore though, the more Skyrim feels lacking. Someday I may write a 4th-era Skyrim literary piece that makes the Thalmor the villains and borrows some aspects from things like the Tamriel Rebuilt and Project Tamriel Morrowind mods and FudgeMuppet's ideal Skyrim video.
Thanks for watching! I hope you walk away with a better understanding of the Thalmor's actions and goals in Tamriel, and why and how they came to be. Please tell me if you liked the video, if you didn't or anything in between.
Feel free to follow any of the links provided below to help the channel grow.
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Wanted to add a weird lore bit there an argument that the dark elves are more closely related to Aldmer as in theory they still look like the Chimer originally did aside from the from the color change Azura afflicted them with.
You should consider making a video on the Dwemer. This video placed a particularly interesting interpretation of the events: ruclips.net/video/fEE9XyqGPys/видео.htmlsi=RDpdJ4fDCyCBYlnq
TOWER THEORY! TOWER THEORY! TOWER THEORY! 😃
Whenever I see a Thalmor patrol:
“Yeah, I’ve got time.”
@@proudsaiyanprince2651 haha samee.
@@laileleneirose7966 Apparently samee translates to "do it"
@@walnzell9328 *sharpens Wuuthrad with malicious intent*
For me it's if I have black soul gems to fill.
@@jeniskindof Looks like you're going to the Soul Cairn, Jimbo!
Say hi to Ulfric for me while you're there!
imperials: the high elves' names are all just numbers! so cruel!
also imperials: hello my name is sextus tertius
@@MatrixTheKitty That's hilarious, I'm mad at myself for not thinking of that.
Raminus pollus
@@MatrixTheKitty it is Sextus Tootius.
Biggus Diccus.
Or Uriel Septum *the 6th* . Like they didn't even get their own name, haha
If I'm not supposed to slaughter every Thalmor agent I encounter, then why is Wuthraad especially deadly to elves?
@rebelgaming1.5.14 I never said you can't slaughter all the Thalmor Agents you find. Go crazy haha.
@@rebelgaming1.5.14 Ha, I know which video you are referencing lol!
@@CommunistHydra PancreasNoWork, and his video's about Pelinal and the Great War?
@@grzegorzflorek5623 that line is from the great war video specifically
Wulthraad actually proves the point that not only thalmor are racist on tamerial.
Rest in peace Henry
I’m not dead
@@henryschriemer1133 Cheers to that 🥂
@@henryschriemer1133 rest in peace henry
@@LordSpacePotato thanks frend, I’ll try and get some good sleep tonight.
@@henryschriemer1133 sometimes i can still hear his voice
In oblivion its shown that if there seperated from their xenophobic and perfectionist culture ,high elves are actually chill
Mob mentality is a thing irl too
I feel like everything fell after the crisis and most groups didn’t put themselves completely back together
That is basically every culture. Nordic culture is also xenophobic, while individual Nords are just good people.
@@Souless6X Yep. Acado is a great example.
@@coreyself2983 except the lizards.
Random thing, as a Historian myself, I really appreciate the way you put things at the start about generalization, and used an example without injecting your own opinion into it. Great stuff and a breath of fresh air to see communicated well!
I wholeheartedly agree. As another member of the guild (Late Middle Ages-Early Modern Era here), I was watching his videos and I was thinking to myself "Damn, this guy talks like an Historian". He exposes the information incredibly well and makes a 50 min. video appear short. Congrats to your work, it's magnificent. I pity myself for not finding your channel earlier.
@@MajinMattPlays I third this (military studies and looking to master in middle ages)
I found Chancellor Ocato a very likeable character in Oblivion. He basically kept the Empire together during Oblivion's events and after. Not because of race or political views, but because he felt it was his duty to keep the Empire going, as the Empire was what stood between its citizens and the chaos and monsters that would prey on them. And Ocato never tried to flee.
He remained on his post even when the Imperial City was besieged by Dagon's legions. That's what I feel the Empire stood for. And Ocato was the embodiment of the Imperial spirit.
I really liked Ocato, really upsetting how he met his end.
100 percent.
We might see the empire fall during the next game or we might not. But they'll likely go down swinging against the Thalmor or anything that threatens the lands they govern.
People be hating the Altmer because of the Thalmor but gave a free pass to the Dunmer because they had a game and a volcano blow up in their face
The altmer want to annihilate or enslave every race in tamriel then use all the towers to kill the rest of the races and ascend to godhood. Ya that's a little more extreme then what the dunmer ONCE did to the argonian people and stopped completely.
Most people haven't played ES3, while the TESV dunmer are the victims of discrimination in Windhelm.
@@badluck5647most people have not witnessed Dunmer bigotry first hand😔
@@tonycarter6424
Yes. That is what I implied.
@tonycarter6424 most people haven't been called a n'wah and it shows.
Fantastic work. Even though TES is situated in a game universe, you’ve shown how it compels some of the best storytelling in modern media. The way you highlighted the Thalmor’s political dynamics and drew real-world parallels adds depth that goes beyond typical gaming narratives. It shows just how rich and thought-provoking this universe can be. Well done.
“All I hear is skill issue and petulant knife-ear crying.”
- Pelinal probably
Pelinal definitely
"If ears are in the shape of a knife,the neck you must slice" -Unnamed warrior.
@@c.antoniojohnson7114 *Ysgramor really liked that*
*Pelinal really liked that*
*scalie farmtools liked that*
*redguards really liked that*
@@AsterikTeenus I'm a redguard. We hate the Thalmor and Aldmeri Dominion
@@c.antoniojohnson7114 Well, if we go by Redguard lore, it’s basically a genetic trait to commit genocide on mer. Which I, as a Nord enjoyer, find extremely based.
Please do cover the Tower theory! As a long time UESP staffer and lore nerd, I'm always a fan of seeing how other people synthesize the available sources.
согласен, теория Башен может быть главным объектом сюжета шестой части Свитков. Хотелось бы послушать
I'm curious how anyone could look at the blatant lore related to this theory and NOT take it seriously. I agree with Planet here that it's probably going to be a big focus of the next game, considering how few towers are left.
Firstly, I like to say I'm sorry about your loss . may your dog rest in peace. Wanted to say I really enjoyed your lore video it was very well done and formatted, and I hope to see more to come. It was really enjoyable to watch
Starting off the video, I do find it amusing (in a good way) that you have added a disclaimer that you don't agree with their politics and also went out of your way to dispel rumors of High Elves
That kind of gesture shows how much you truly love the lore, I'd say. A casual like me would never think twice about that.
Looking forward to the rest of the watch
👏
Taking a game so seriously is kinda weird. It comes off as as pandering and a virtue signal.
@@DragonFruitXVI If you choose to view it negatively, sure. That is your choice.
I like to see it in a positive manner, that the source of this information I am digesting is an actual passion project from a talented young man.
Whether I agree with everything he posts now or in the future, I can at least appreciate the grind and work he puts in to pursue something important to him. That to me makes it a credible source at the very least.
True @@DragonFruitXVI
@@Mydogatemycomment interesting way to admit to being a homo
That wasn't satire? It's a game lmao wtf.
sorry to hear about ur loss man. I have my dog sitting in my lap rn and that hit me hard. Heres to hoping that henry is in doggo heaven where theres treats everywhere and endless space to run around in :')
RIP to a brave and noble companion ❤️
The only thing the Thalmor hate more than anyone who isn't an Altmer, is an Altmer that isn't a Thalmor believer.
Standard fascism
Henry, you left this world the same day one of my horses did. Lady was born on my farm when i was 7 years old. Im 30 years old, now.
Although their corporeal forms may have left this realm, Henry and Lady will live on through us and the lives of every person they touched.
Rest In Peace Henry.
I understand that the Altmer aren't a monolith and that racism is bad, but I have a ton of fun RPing someone who is genuinely hateful and seeing if the NPC elves can convince me to change my mind. Lots of fun to have that as character development.
As a writer/dev, you can never defeat human nature. Tribalism will always be fun in roleplay and add both variation and depth.
Behind most catastrophes is an elf drunk on madness and power.
@@jaredkelch1431 Nah, not in the case of the Tribu- wait, hang on.
Okay, fine, but an elf definitely wasn't responsible for the Oblivion Cri- shit, that one, too?
Okay, there's no way an elf was responsible for Manni- wait, he _WAS_ an elf!?!?
The Tribunal were forced to respond to threats as the daedra did not care to protect them, only use them for making fun of the Endavour. All that they did was in response to the danger presented by Shor and man (by way of the nords the dwemer and the resultant Empire)
The Oblivion Crisis was similarly provoked by the metaphysical decline the Empire caused, and Mankar Camoran was not the author but a pawn in the scheme of things, similarly to the Tribunal
Mannimarco had beef with Arkay, another man who ‘became a divine’ like Tiber Septim
One of my favourite ways to play skyrim is as an Altmer dissident fleeing the Thalmor, it perfectly explains why you'd be trying to illegally cross into Skyrim and also adds additional context as to why the Thalmor send assassins after you. You could also argue it's a good explanation for why the imperial captain insists you go to the block despite Hadvar's protest given that the Thalmor are in Helgen at the time.
I've done this roleplay, it really is a strong one!
The Thalmor is evidence that Pelinal didn't go far *enough*
Didn’t he kill Khajiits because he mistook them for elves?
@@Prodigi50 They ARE elves. Azura made them look like cats for some reason. She has a strange tendency for dramatically altering the appearance of entire races of elves.
@@tzaphkielconficturus7136 That origin isn’t definitive. The Khajiit were there way before the descendants of the Aldmer. They might be related to the Bosmer but that’s questionable. Whether Azura did anything to them is also questionable.
Sithis wasnt padome he was an aspect that came from him
@@Prodigi50 Look, when one pf the Velothi Daedra says they physically transfigured a whole race of elves, I believe them. They seem to do it a lot, between the chimer, the dunmer, the orsimer, and the kahjit.
This is probably the most compassionate and gentle take of the elves, Aldmeri dominion, and the Thalmor. Despite all the horrorable things, years of pain, and adversity committed or endured it's hopeful to see and hear that there are altmer who still detest and rebel against the thalmor for all they've done.
i am definitely going to put in a request for a future vid on the towers, that stuff's fascinating to me
@TheThinWhiteDukestar It is definitely super interesting. I didn't want it to muddle with the actual facts of the Thalmor in this video, though, since, as I understand it, it's mostly out-of-lore statements that it's built on.
@@theemerdareloth oh absolutely it's reasonable to not flood this video with it. talking about the thalmor does make for a good jumping off point though. I've had my own theories about the towers for a while but definitely keen to see an in depth coverage on them
If these games lore wasn't this deep it'd be a bit boring honestly I always come back to skyrim for the lore god knows the combat ain't doing it xD
My favorite thing to happen recently was seeing the thamor stsrt targeting me when I mess up enough of their patrols and prisoner transports
*Happy Wuuthrad noises*
Wuuthrad? Or hear me out now, you could use...THE WABBAJACK!😂
@@camronfox6636 Better than Chillrend, since everybody uses it. That sword is the town bicycle, I swear.
@@varietywiarriorbetter chillrend than windshear
Altmers are my favorite ES race simply because they seem rude or snobbish but in reality, in their culture, honesty to the point of a lack of social skills is valued. Everyone in high society might be stuck up, otherwise, and will waste years trying to test the waters for friendships before actually speaking their minds. I like to imagine that the way Thalmors speaks of their fascist discourse is simply their actual belief systems, laid bare. Nothing more or less. And a good altmer friend would probably tell you when you are wrong. They are the "no bullshit" race, and are all kinda in the spectrum for a special interest.
So basically, you like taarie from skyrim and hate ancano.
altmer is the autism master race 💪
Hmmm interesting that you compare the altmer with autistic people. As a spectrum born being myself I tend to veer towards non humans. But mostly I tend to go towards orcs. Simply because being able to fight kinda became a demand in my youth. You get ostracized when different. But when different in a smaller town the group bullying could be wild. Sure I am likely as unapolagetically direct as the thalmor. But I identify with the ostracized more.
@@lakkakka okay?
@@delta6704 what has you contfused? Or did you want to start a conversation but didn't know how?
RIP Henry. I'll avenge him by wiping out the Thalmor.
Shoutout High Chancellor Octato he's gotta be top 17 Altmer even on a bad day also showing up to work ruling all of Cyrodil while stoned is also pretty sick.
Sorry to hear about your dog, man, that's the worst. Great video. As an avid consumer of this type of lore video, I can definitely say you're by far the most coherent and effective creator on youtube when it comes to elder scrolls history and theory. It's almost inspired me to take my own crack at it, lol. Thanks, man! Best of luck to you.
I've always had a strong disdain for the high elves in TES while still adoring the other elves, and they all have their own major moral issues. Really it comes down to that snobbish attitude, and then the thalmor's machinations to bring the downfall of all races that aren't elf. The whole "it's our birthright to rule this land and be lauded as superior to all others" thing that makes me dislike them.
The dark elves' society permits assassination, slavery, and various other morally dark things. The wood elves permit cannibalism. The dwemmer abused their snow elf kin and took their sight (that's debatable if it was a morally good or evil thing to do however.) I can't recall much about the snow elves, however the point is that in spite of some of the *really* horrible practices of some of the elven races, the high elves still strike that chord for a lot of people and make people hate them, and I'm betting it's all due to attitude. That's what does it for me at least.
Don't forget the Ayleids, who had literal living flesh gardens made from humans who they kept alive with magic for the purposes of watching them suffer forever. They got so heinous that the Divines had to send Pelinal to vibe check them. They did not pass the vibe check.
@@varietywiarriorHonestly I see the case against Tiber Septim. But even by his time so many of the Kingdoms Elf or not were into some truly bad things. Even the human kingdoms were often infighting. Imperial rule stabilised them to a large degree although not entirely
@@samuelbishop1701 I think a large part of that is simply how long Elves tend to live. Sure centuries give you time to truly master a given art/hobby/warcraft, it also gives plenty of time to lead to boredom and depravity. We've seen that in a lot of different IP. Take the cruelty, arrogance, violence, and bloodshed that the mannish races exhibit, and then add a couple centuries of boredom on top of it. For example, take the Nord's xenophobia and dial it up to 10. I think that's why most Elven peoples see themselves as betters, it's simply the skill and knowledge that comes with time. Then throw some religious practices on top of that and you have a recipe for disaster. A lot of people hate the Altmer (or Ayleids and Dunmer) but I find them genuinely interesting because of the implications surrounding their very natures. The Elder Scrolls world would be a lot less vibrant without our arrogant knife ears.
42:20 why do people "spare us the details" in video essays.... this isn't supposed to be short form content, keep talking!
@@delta6704 I think he's presuming you have encountered the details elsewhere on other videos or media, so it would be redundant on his part to repeat what you (may) already know.
I would love to see your take on the Towers as they and their possible connection to Thalmor goals are probably my favorite bit of contemporary ES lore
It's definitely an interesting theory! It's very reliant on out of Lore statements as I understand it, so I wanted to leave it out of this as I was going for a more historical analysis.
I would argue that the Blades are potentially just as malicious as the current Thalmor regime. Read up on Blades lore and you'll see this is the case. And, in understanding their real nature and purpose it irks me a bit the player character is more or less obliged to join in and become a prime agent in almost all TES games to sow division and discord in the name of the emperor. There's a reason why the Blades are the arch-nemesis of the Thalmor: they mirror each other.
I mean, yeah, they're a clandestine arm of the Empire that does all kinds of shady cloak and dagger stuff. They have zero accountablity and are just a nebulous void that tax money goes into, never to be seen again. Sounds a lot like the CIA, and you can bet those dudes are malicious.
Skyrim shows that very well,the blades and thalmor hate each other due to the similarities they share.
@@josephpercy1558 I mean, yeah, they're a cloak and dagger intelligence agency. Bay of Pigs comes to mind.
Not even a lore nerd but yeah the Blades merely have a polite face to cover for their own genocidal activities
It's really a neat case study in how political extremes basically mirror each other, it's so neat that this series has such potential to educate people on politics, love it
It's genuinely horrifying how accurate they made the thalmor in respect to past fascist movements (and even modern ones like in my country), really reflects life doesn't it
I mean they straight up named the Thalmor "The Third Dominion"
Hermaeus Mora did an unspeakable crime to Nirn.
He kept a Shezzarine away from the war to destroy the Thalmor.
@@walnzell9328 Shazzarines bodying elves is my absolute favorite Elder Scrolls trope.
Racism has always been a big part of the elder scrolls lore and very often can be connected with real events. The Alessian Empire at some point (Pierre l'Ermite first Crusade kinda), The Septim Empire (Rome Empire), The argonian/Dunmer relationship (American Slavery), the Thalmor (III Reich), even in TES II and III Orcs were treated the same way as golbin or Troll (1900's+ Racism). Very good episode today !
It scares me how familiar this is given the things happening in the world. Everyone wants "to good back to the old days" while failing to understand those days...and instead use awful methods to dominate and force their ideologies onto others.
Really reminds me of these nostalgia fueled movements we have in my nation, everyone fails to realize they were young then and didn't understand how bad things were around them
Literally never encountered this anywhere, even online. You're crazy.
The good old days were the 90s/00's. You could buy a house on one income, music and movies were better, and nobody was whining about identity politics.
@@richter6699 So you never encountered this but encountered this? Okay, Jan.
I did not know Henry, but I am sure he was the best boy.
Great video as always
Did yall know the Thalmor have been kicked out of 109 provinces yet some still think they're good for their country? And did you know the amount of Thalmor supposedly slain when Tiber Septim brough the Numidium to Summerset Isle is mathematically impossible and likely exaggerated? Cant say any of that though or the Thalmor will come and take you from your house in the middle of the night
Where can I read more about this. I'm sincerely curious. It would be reassuring to know for myself.
Let them come, I'm up at night.
Their intelligence is also highly exaggerated. Leather Apron Society on YT did an excellent documentary about it.
@@woohoomusic5098 the thalamor are shifty, they spend a lot of money to push corrupt nobles to do what they want, they also say their race was chosen by the aedra
I don't think they'd bother taking you out of the house they'd just burn it down
The modern real-world, woke moral disclaimers to your analyses on fantasy universes is quite entertaining.
This, and all your videos on the elder scrolls, are such a delight. Though this one in particular really shines for me. Taking a "historian's" approach to the lore and sources found in (and sometimes outside) the core games works so well for the elder scrolls. Fantastic presentation, writing, and delivery. I will be greedily gobbling up your future work.
Thanks, man. Means a lot!
Next time an Oblivion NPC asks me if I've heard of the high elves, I'll send him this. 😂
Also, I do sort of, in a grim way, hope that in ES6 (if it ever comes out), the Thalmor have won and have conquered Cyrodiil, purely because thats the most fascinating and cool option to take the story and would be the first time we've had a mainline Elder Scrolls game without an Empire as the preeminent force, and would allow us to see more of the Thalmor; whether they want to make them more sympathetic and normal, or even more comically evil, they'd be really cool as a villainous force and a paradigm shift on Tamriel. Honestly seeing internal power struggles in the Dominion would also be pretty cool, with different levels of radicalism and different people with different goals
elves are usually portrayed as kinda stuck up and snobbish
the thalmor take that to the extreme.
They have single-handedly soured my view of elves in most media.
That's completely understandable, The Thalmor are awful people.
I really enjoy the lore of all of the Elves in the Elder Scrolls, though, and I think Bethesda made a mistake in making things so black and white in Skyrim; Thalmor evil, men good.
@@theemerdareloth I think they attempted to combat the "elves bad men good" thing with the stormcloaks, they're... really not great people. The very first scene you see when entering windhelm is stormcloak nords threatening to pay a dark elf woman a "visit" at night
but the stormcloaks are written to be sympathetic, to be understandable. They want religious freedom! they want to fight against the racism and fascism of the Thalmor! Just ignore that the Stormcloaks are just as racist as the Thalmor...
The Thalmor on the other hand you really have to go digging to understand why they're the way they are, and even when you do, you can't really find anything to sympathize with. Mostly because of the WW2 analog, but also because we the viewers aren't elves. Why would we as humans see a race of alien people that want to dominate mankind as good?
@@theemerdareloth I did like how they made the revolting side of a war the bad guys because that's an angle we don't see too often
I just don't understand that the Thalmor are seen as so reprehensible in the Elder Scrolls community, but the Empire of Tiber Septim, and Tiber Septim himself don't get a similar treatment by the community despite them acting just as morally reprehensible.
@@DotKom01The guys fighting for economic freedom and sovereignty from an empire that's actively failing them are hardly the bad guys. Their tax septims are funding a regime that actively seeks to destroy their religion and culture. I'm not going to pretend that every Stormcloak is a perfect angel, much less Ulfric himself(I mean, walking in and shouting a teenager to death? For real? Couldn't have handled that better?), but their cause is justified in my opinion. And that's coming from a big fan of the Empire since Morrowind.
Damn, genuinely sorry for your loss 😕
Great video too, thank you for creating it
Although I have heard it countless times, they way you present Ondolemar's quote, its chilling.
47:12 was the oblivion crisis the great depression?
As an ESO player, the main thing that comes to mind about the 4e Thalmor (Yes I will continue to refer to them as such) is their parallels to the Veiled Heritance, which in some ways were even more extreme and were against even the Bosmer and the Khajiit. A lot of the mentalities are the same and even went through several destabilisation campaigns in Auridon and Grahtwood to try and bring down Ayrenn. They even infiltrated an academy training Thalmor officers which I like to think would have been the seeds of the 4e Thalmor. The lore states the Thalmor always existed, if as a fringe faction within the isles.
As for Ayrenn, while her Dominion has a veil of Elven Supremacy to it, there's also a lot of implication about her being tortured at the hands of Abnur Tharn. If so, then I can understand her views a lot more as that would sour my views on people too.
There's also a certain tragedy to the 4e Thalmor, from a Bureau of Aldmeri Heritage to tearing down their traditions in pursuit of power. The 4e Thalmor are a far cry from their origins.
Every time I watch a Elder Scrolls Lore Video, I gotta say that the old writers really did put a lot of effort. I wish Bethesda of Old wrote Fallout 4, the Post-Oblivion, pre- Skyrim launch Bethesda.
RIP doggo. May heaven be filled with treats and toys.
Awesome video hoping there's more altmer dissenters in elderscrolls 6
@@rancidavocado2166 Me too, I'd love to see an Altmer Resistance building in Elder Scrolls VI.
Would be interesting too if it turns out between ES 5-6 another faction of high elves completely against the thalmor team up with the redguards against the thalmor. I have a feeling we will be fighting the thalmor as a main enemy in ES6, or maybe by the start of ES6 the thalmor are in shambles because of the revived dark brotherhood at work.
New to the channel but really appreciate your nuanced view of history’s (both fictional and real world) cause and effect refreshing. Keep up the good work. Subscribed.
It's all a matter of perspective. If you read about the lore behind the Altmer it would make perfect sense why they would want to drive out the people which came from different continents out of their home, and why they believe they are better than everyone (because they actually are)
Have you heard of the high elves?
*bites apple*
AGH
UGH
AGH
*dies*
I just 'ate the thalmor simple as not roicest
Because of a meta strategy in TES II Daggerfall, the agent Uriel Septim VII sent to the Iliac Bay, who, through the use of the staff of Tiber Septim and the Mantella, retroactively assured Tiber Septim achieving Chim, was usually a High Elf.
The strategy was simple. You took weaknesses to be able to level up faster when making your character. So you took weakness to paralysis, but then High Elves were immune to paralysis in that game, so it cancelled out the weakness, but kept the exp bonus. Your character is a very good friend of Uriel VIII. He himself admits as much. Asking you to help ease the suffering of another friend, King Lysandus, who has departed, but is unable to rest.
I like to imagine that the Emperor's agent is stuck in a stasis after the Warp in the West, but is bound to show up again. Weak to paralysis, but immune to paralysis. Ready to wake up and begin a journey for the kingdom of Daggerfall once again, but now it's been over 200 years since Uriel Septim VII, a man who considered them his friend, was murdered. And his Empire lay in ruins.
Sorry about your dog
I'm sorry for your loss. RIP Henry 😢
As I was listening to the lecture about how the not all elves are like the Thalmor I literally discovered a bunch of them abducting a random individual in Skyrim 💀
If the thamor came across a Nord and Dumner family they would loose it.
Love all your Elder scrolls lore videos keep them up!❤
Thank you very much, I greatly appreciate it!
Bro what world are we living in that you have to say you are not supporting any political or religious moments in a fantasy series
In the words of Tim Robinson, “WHAT DID THEY DO TO US!”
You'd be surprised how many genuinely racist comments I've gotten lol.
@@theemerdareloth people are alway worse in fantasy/fictin, just think of the things they willingly do in GTA, playing the dark brotherhood instead of destroying it, etc. Taking it too serious on any side is purely absurd, yet that is what we have become
another great video,thanks for all the work put into these lore videos
Thanks!
So the civil was caused by the Thalmor by banning Talos worship. They knew this would sow dissent among the Nords, leading to the civil war in Skyrim, one of 3 remaining provinces in the Empire who the Thalmor are at war with.
Clever bastards. You even see them trying to persuade General Tulius to spare Ulfric at the beginning of the game because a weak and divided skyrim is what they want.
The Stormcloaks aren't wrong in their want to worship Talos. Sadly though, they think the Empire is the enemy instead of the Thalmor. Alvor, the blacksmith of whiterun says that the Empire were totally fine with people worshiping Talos at home, but that it was when Ulfric started making it a big deal, forming the stormcloaks and killing the high King, that the Empire finally had to step in or risk there being another Great War with the Thalmor.
I dont know if Ulfric is a useful idiot, or actually is in cahoots with the Thalmor, but either way im glad that not all Nords are falling for the anti empire propaganda and seeing the big picture of the Thalmor being the common enemy.
As Alvor said, "Nords have always been allies to the empire, and aren't known for being fair-weather friends" or something like that. Basically that Nords are tough, and to abandon the empire in their time of need would be a bitch move. Especially because if the Stormcloaks win, the Thalmor will come for them next.
Well, it's not like the Stormcloaks can reasonably overthrow the Thalmor. Winning independence against the empire is a much more reasonable goal than invading Summerset. Tiber Sceptim needed a super weapon to achieve this, Ulfric Stormcloak could never accomplish it.
To be fair, the Empire has not done anything to kick TAD out of Cyrodiil for over 20 years. If You support the legions, you will find that the Empire allows the Thalmor to conduct investigations and arrest Nords freely in Skyrim. All Talos worshippers are arrested, jailed and maybe killed. If You're Nord, how would You feel seeing a fellow Kinsman getting led to their slaughter in your own land... Ulfric is right in this regard, the Empire won't bleed for their Terrorities. Too weak to govern. Everything seem setup to support the Imperials, not the other Provinces. I think the DB is supposed to support the StormCloaks, and his story is meant to be the next the Empire. Considering He is the most Powerful Character alive.
So firstly I wanna thank you for making what is honestly the best lore video on the Altmer I've seen in a long time, especially one that covers the Thalmor from an objective perspective. I know this is a very unpopular opinion, but I've been radicalised to the point where I think Tiber Septim is the most evil man of the Second Era, and is responsible directly for the radical ideology that would lead the Thalmor to transform the Altmer from a flawed, but peaceful and isolationist race to an aggressive, genocidal and chauvinistic force that we see in Skyrim.
You have to keep in mind that the Numidium was basically a nuke, that killed innumerable numbers of innocent Mer and permanently scarred the lands of Alinor, on an aggressive war the Empire started. Theres not really a way to justify this, in my opinion, the Empire started the war, despite the fact the Dominion posed no threat to the unification of most of Tamriel, then came centuries of occupation and tyranny by a race that considered them to be lesser Infidels, and as a final insult, they turned the man who destroyed their peaceful, ancient kingdom and deified him in their faith.
To be fair, the Empire was a relatively tolerant force, and likely could have led to a better Summerset if given a long-enough time, but when they actually needed aid from the Empire; the one that destroyed, subjugated, and disarmed them, the Empire simply abandoned them, leaving Summerset at the destructive impulses of the Daedra and causing incredible amounts of death and destruction, the Empire that was supposed to unite and protect them abandoned them the first time they actually needed them. So of course, people would flock to the faction that glorified the Altmer, one that promised them there would never be another invasion and desecration of Summerset; because unlike the old Kingdom, they would take action to kill any attempts by men in their infancy, and ensure that Mer would no longer leave the mainlanders to their own whims, but force peace and ensure they would never face another humiliation.
This isn't to justify the Thalmors actions, of course, but moreso to explain why they exist in my view, as a natural response to Mannish aggression by a culture that has already had these bad impulses.
TL;DR: TIBER SEPTIM IS THE CAUSE OF ALL EVIL IN THE WORLD
The elder scrolls series is the only franchise I know where you can look someone dead in the eyes and say "so what race do you hate the most?"
I know you said there was no other sources in what happened when Tiber invaded summerset but there are ones that state the reason the isle was taken in an hour is Tiber activated the Numidium, causing a dragon break, what was an hour was recorded as an entire era’s worth of horror to the altmer, as in time passed like that during the dragon break, during this break Tiber assassinated unloyal families to his regime and replaced them with loyal vassals, the underking furious with Tiber shattered the numidium and the mantilla was cast into an ocean
Not all high elves are thalmors
but all thalmors are high elves
Great video, thank you so much for it! I'm part of the Elder Scrolls storytelling community, wich consists of people telling their own stories using mostly modded Skyrim game with the actual game as a background and posting on Instagram. I've always played as Emperial and in my stories I always reforced the idea that the Thalmor was the real enemy.
Congrats on the excelent work and greetings from Brazil! ;)
Good video!
It's very funny that they they drew so much inspiration from World war 2 for the Thalmor when the obvious historic moment that comes to mind to be stealing from is either the Parthian Persians or the Arab Conquests under Muhammed where you could've given the Thalmor a lot more depth and character. You could even keep the Tiber Sepem controversy plots! I guess they wanted an Indiana Jones style bad guy though.
I love how the Anuad puts it, the Wandering Ehlnofey came upon Old Ehlnofey and expected to be welcomed. They Were Not. Anyway a War broke out, somehow, wouldn’t know where to start figuring that out
Really cool video thanks for making this looking forward to watching your other videos
"Seen any elves? Hahahaha!"
My condolences mate. Sorry for your loss😢
My condolences to Henry, he seemed like a good boy
Don't stop making lore videos, brother. They're actually what brought me here, and I happen to also be a big fan of card games. It really is the best of both worlds, though I really wish they hadn't abandoned ESL; it's such a great game, and I'll take more TES where I can get it. 💕
Awesome video! Bosmer deep dive when? Bosmer have always been my favorite elves in ES for 2 reasons; my first ES game was Morrowind and watching Fargoth "sneak" through Seyda Neen cracks me up every time, and the Green Pact is a unique twist on the wood elf trope. Loving plants so much that you're exclusively carnivorous lol
If you truly loved plants though, you'd eat fruits and seed-bearing vegetables. That is the intent of the plant, to produce the edible fruits and veggies so animals take them, eat them and thus spread the seeds to new locations.
@@mvanvoor There are multiple plants with seed dispersal mechanisms that don't depend on other animals consuming them.
Damn the thalmore got bro whipped
There's something about Skyrim that I don't feel like much people are discussing much. It's the parallel that the Thalmor have with... the Stormcloaks. Sorry Stormcloaks lovers but I can't help to draw huge comparisons between the two, one might even say they're mirrors of one another. Their upbringing and goals are nearly similar with hints of racial/religious motivations each, depending on which member of their faction you speak to.
They both rose to power from hatred towards their enemy and the government that appeared weak by surrendering to said enemy. If you side with the Stormcloaks in the civil war, you end up doing what the Thalmor did in the Summerset Isles, you helped Ulfric oust every local political opposition to the faction and thus ensures his rise to the title of High King at the upcoming moot. And of course they'll both manage to do that "legally" from their local customs much to the dismay of Nords and Altmers that hates their guts.
Lastly while the Thalmor hates Men and Beast races, the Stormcloaks meanwhile hates Mer and Beast races. ...Oh hey look at that they both hate Beast races. Another thing they have in common.
The only big difference is that we know the Stormcloaks are at least in it to free their province from the Thalmor while the other faction clearly wants to cleanse Tamriel of races they don't like. But... who's to say a successful stormcloak faction won't aspire to conquer other regions in the future. Like Ysgramor and his companions founded Skyrim after cleansing the surface of the Snow Elves...
At least that's how I see things, there's no reason to only like one faction but condemn the other.
Master class well done sir. I really enjoyed your mythic dawn video and this one is even more enjoyable. Well done.
Thank you!
So the main villain of The Elder Scrolls is Tiber Septim. got it
@dabash1039 He's a lot like Julius Caesar. Was he a good leader? Yeah, it seems like it. Was he also kind of a warmonger? Yeah, it seems like it.
@@theemerdareloth I really admire that nuance. He's not just a good guy who unified Tamriel and become a god. The fact that the Thalmor actually have a legitimate case, however poorly portrayed in Skyrim, is what I love about TES. Same thing with the story of Lord Nerevar and the Tribunal. Were the Tribunal Saviors of Morrowind or Usurpers? Btw, R.I.P Henry
@@dabash1039 Thank you. And definitely! It is a very morally grey area in the lore. The men are typically seen as the good guys on Tamriel, but they are certainly not perfect. The Thalmor have a right to be mad, but as soon as they start doing ethnic purging and political coups, my willingness to think of them positively starts to fall. I do think it'd be cool if we got to join them in Elder Scrolls VI as an evil option, but I doubt it.
he's like christopher columbus, he did soo much for his people but damn did he ruin so many lives
Always has been (*shoots astronaut in the back*)
R.I.P. Henry, wait for The Master of Dareloth in Shor's lofty hall.
You have earned a subscriber with this.
Death to the Thalmor
Glory to the children of Lorkhan and Tamriel
The "God's chosen people" of the Elder Scrolls universe.
@@VictoryVonIngram yea the chosen WINNERS.
Still better than the "religion of peace"
@@patriarch.9237
_Ysgramor has entered the chat_
_Ansei have entered the chat_
*THE WHITESTRAKE HAS ENTERED THE FACILITY*
More like the state that claims to speak for all of them
I just discovered your channel. I'm a huge TES fan and i am obsessed with the way you frame your content and produce it. I'm not sure how else to get into contact with you, but I'm a voice actor & would love to voice some of the cut-in clips for you if you should ever need some. I'm absolutely enamored with this content. Its exactly what i have been searching for from TES. Viewed through an objective, historical, and realistic sense that reads more like academic study than a simple discussion of the lore. Thank you for making this content. I am amazed and ever grateful that you have this channel. Much love!
Thanks for making this video. As my first contact with Elder Scrolls was the Skyrim trailer (the original one), and my geek background as a Star Wars fan, I tend to lean more in favor of the Nords (and Stormcloak _Rebellion_ ). However, this consolidation of information is very helpful. This is definitely widening my view of the Altmer. If you could do a similar video/series on the Dunmer and their systems of government (pre-TES3, TES3, post-TES3), that’d be cool.
I'd love to do a breakdown like that at some point. Glad you enjoyed the video!
It may not be subtle, but it was actually a great idea to write the Thalmor this way. It gives the fanbase a proper enemy, and promotes a morally righteous campaign to defeat that enemy which keeps us excited for the chance to do so in future installments.
Peak content, honestly after this I'd love to see you cover more metaphysical stuff like you did in the Mythic Dawn video too
28:40 people were upset about that in the last video because too much of the fandom treat everything coming out of his mouth as gospel.
Yeah I have to talk about him again in my newest video :/
Also the Rime Sombra skin is dope.
Having finally finished the video.... 3 days after starting it. I think the Thalmor are.... interesting, to say the least.
Since to look into the questions posed towards the end, I think the Thalmor ask a question that most people are simply not comfortable with answering "Is the ability of your people to survive and thrive more valuable to you than someone else's?" and while most people's kneejerk reaction is "No" history doesn't show that to be the case, nor would I argue that's even the morally correct answer.
The Thalmor are directly compared to the Nationalist Germans in the 1930s often, and while we can always sit here and just say "Evil!" I think this video does a fantastic job of establishing that evil actions often have reason and origins. The lesson at the beginning about Generalization applies even to those with beliefs and ideas that we consider evil, and dehumanizing them only makes those ideas fester. This idea is showcased incredibly well by the Thalmor, with their motives being based in vengeance for the humiliation they faced at the hands of Tiber Septim.
"Even if it's fictional"
Bon bah ta mère
Na, I hated that Chancellor because he refused to send aid to Bruma. He could have easily dispatched a squad of Imperial City Guardsmen or a patrol of Imperial Legionaries to Bruma but he chose not to.
Great video! And like you hinted at, would definitely love to see a video on the first dominion and Ayrenn! (( I'm extremely biased towards her in ESO, because imo Queen Ayrenn is simply a good, genuine person. ))
While she retains that 'we are better' altmer supremacy mindset, she wants to use it to help others do better, rather than to use it to stone fist rule the other races. Not 'we are better and so we should rule above everyone else and everyone just has to deal with it' but 'we are better and so we should rule and help guide them'.
She's done things unbefitting of Altmer nobility (( and especially royalty )) and instead of simply following the old customs she went out and saw the world and let her experiences shape her views rather than old Altmer customs and tries her best to change Summerset to fit the new world and to give other races a chance as well, because during her travels she's seen the potential, and even befriended other races despite her status and race.
She doesn't give up despite the opposition from her own people and stays firm in wanting to lead by good example. She is always seen making honest efforts to create ties with the Khajit and Bosmer, and is open to talking with the other leaders with the vestige acting as a bridge to smoothen things out. She's willing to listen, talk and compromise. And you just really get the sense that she does it all from a good place.
(( which makes it so much worse that the following aldmeri dominions were raised from less good places, considering the thoughts of unity she started it with ))
I'm allowed to dislike whatever fictional race I choose, thank you very much.
I really want a game where we fight the Thalmor head-on, especially in a Second Great War
I really have to hand it to the Skyrim mod Legacy of the Dragonborn for really showing me personally one of the most likeable Altmer characters with their museum curator. It was actually pretty neat to see how his long life and access to really old culture during his childhood made him fun and informative to be around. Plus he let me skip his explanations if it got to be too technical, real champ for that. Now as for the Thalmor themselves, my only regret with my interactions with them is that there's too few of them. I want a Great War mod that lets me fight during that conflict, all of the NPCs that you hear from who survived it are just heartbreaking in their descriptions. I detest Ulfric as a person but I love his monologue when you first enter the Palace of the Kings, even if the times I side with the stormcloaks I end up making him "unessential" if you get my meaning and pretend to proclaim myself as a new better High King. Maybe we'll have a great war 2 in ES6. The Redguards seemed to have proven that the Dominion can be beaten even without extra support from other provinces.
Rest in peace Henry, may your soul reach Aetherius
With what we know of the Thalmor, I feel like they should've been the main villains of TES 5 instead of Alduin and the dragons.
Don't get me wrong, I am grateful of Skyrim for making me an Elder Scrolls fan. The more I explore older depictions of TES lore though, the more Skyrim feels lacking.
Someday I may write a 4th-era Skyrim literary piece that makes the Thalmor the villains and borrows some aspects from things like the Tamriel Rebuilt and Project Tamriel Morrowind mods and FudgeMuppet's ideal Skyrim video.
Great video from a High Elf simpatizare