Is DYNEEMA DEAD? Ultralight Gear Gets an Overhaul!
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- Опубликовано: 20 июл 2024
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Im glad there's all these competing materials now, however, lets stress that if your hiking bag is in good condition and you plan on getting a replacement, please resell it or give it away. All the good from ecopack will be pretty wasteful if everyone throws their old bags away in response. I've sold and purchased old bags on ebay and it always feels good knowing that an item that brought you many good memories will continue to do the same for someone else.
This is great! I know I had a hard time getting my recent backpack due to difficulty getting xpack. Also always excited to see companies making products more environmentally friendly. Thank you!
Yeah. It's some really interesting stuff.
Dyneema is the lowest carbon footprint by far! Produced with zero emissions from bio based fiber and produced with renewable energy.
I believe the Dyneema patent ends in 2024 in Europe, once that happens the price will come down from its current artificial inflated position and multiple manufactures will be able to produce it.
That's very interesting!
But that is only for the original dyneema version? What about all the improved versions like the dyneema SK99 or later?
@@undefinednull5749 I don't know, but I would be interested to learn more from you. 👍
That's great news!! Gonna snatch me a Durston X-Mid 1 Pro if it does!
no it wont, its very hard to make dyneema and you wont suddenly see bags on the store shelf, so price wont come down. and that only in europe
My new backpack is made out of U200 and I have to say, it's really good. For my tent I still love dyneema. Alone for the crinkled look and the light passing through.
In the interview RBTR did with the guy from Challenge, it didn’t sound like they were looking to develop any sub-1oz fabrics, so Dyneema will likely still be king for tarps and rain flys.
Looking forward to some multi-year reviews to see how these materials hold up.
I can vouch for this video as I own a few EcoPak bags and they are worth every penny. Im excited the industry wants to move more into recycled materials. I will be replacing my aging Gregory 48L to the new Ecopak. Great video JK! We need to see more RUclipsrs talk about this topic.
Thanks so much!
@@sebastianforbes1 in the outdoor community nothing should be considered buying “twice”. You pay it forward by donating your gear to someone else who cannot afford one or trade them in to companies who will gladly buy it back.
I ordered a Unaweep 4800 from Seek Outside made in Ultra 400 not even realizing it is a new fabric so now I'm really excited to try it out. Lol. Thanks for the info.
Just ordered the new Zpacks Arc Haul Ultra, which is made with Ultra 200 material. Super excited to check it out! The backpack (without accessories) weights in at 20.5 ounces
Nice. I've heard good things about that.
I'm curious to know how this stuff gets seamed together. Is it strictly a stitched together product or can it be thermally welded or chemically bonded (glued) together.
Great info John.
My biggest concern is cost.
Can you do some comparison
on the cost difference?
Ecopak is under half the price of the heavier weigh DCF used in packs
Price of DCF is one of its cons. I'm wondering if the price of Eco will have the effect of bringing down the price of DCF?
I enjoyed your enthusiasm about the new materials being used today. One problem , you are preaching to the choir in my case. Been then & have witnessed the very same things but for a little longer. In my 77 years of life about 65 have been in the outdoors , enjoying what it offers. I started with external framed canvas bags & packs , tents and other gear. Then witnessed the changes in equipment thru the ages. When Cuben fiber came out , the latest and greatest material for tents , packs and tarps. Might as well include the Titanium camping products. My total gear ( Today's Ultralight Gear ) weighs less then my 1st tent back then.( especially when it was wet ..LOL. ) Now you have & are witnessing the same evolutionary process in equipment. Try to imagine the changes you will see in your life , I couldn't , and still can't. One guarantee... It will always get better no matter how much you liked , enjoyed , the old gear. Nothing smells like camping more then a Canvas tent in the morning. Excluding Bacon and Coffee cooking over the mornings campfire. lol
I think EcoPak will be a great alternative for X-Pac very soon. I don’t see it ever “de-throning” Dyneema but definitely being a strong alternate. The bonus with EcoPak is the environmental impact. It’ll be interesting to see the impact it makes in the market, especially as more variations of EcoPak come out.
I just love having options.
@@john_kelley Absolutely! Once Waymark drops the new ultra EVLV in their store, that’s my next pack for sure!
Love the innovation! Hopefully it sticks around, as it’s taken me 5+ years and thousands of dollars to dial in my dyneema gear load out for ground and hammock camping. I’m hesitant to start replacing with a new material as X Pak seemed to be the new exciting material very recently, but has fallen fast for Ecopak. I guess we will see what happens in the next year or so.
I'm still totally happy using sil nylon for everything but my backpack, prefer how small it packs down and still have a sub 4kg base weight.
you don't have to upgrade just because there's something new/better! although I know how tempting new camping gear is...
@@MovementDrifter What ultralight tent do you use?
@@KingdomFTX I use a bunch of stuff. Generally try to stick to the more budget gear too
MLD Duomid (sil-nylon version) if I know the weather will be bad. Around 700gm I think
Aricxi tarp tent (15d sil-nylon, from aliexpress) if there's good weather. around 320gm
Either with a ground sheet or the inner, again depending on bugs/weather.
Mostly I prefer to hammock camp though
One important difference between the xpac and 200ultra is the ability to seam seal the ultra fabric due to the laminated side. I wonder if it will ever replace tent or tarp material, don’t know if it can get that thin
That is one huge positive.
you can actually seam tape x-pac, the rx version.
Check out the RipstopByTheRoll podcast where the founder of Ecopak was interviewed. Sounds like they are working on a thinner version for tarps and tents right now. Game Changer!
@@scotthicks919 game changer IF the price comes down considerably lol
Is it as light as dyneema and cheaper? I'd love for competition to bring prices down.
Great and informative video! Fascinating and exciting stuff.
Thanks for a very informative video John . Take Care
What about the use of ecopak in tents? Thanks for the video!
I can only imagine that these companies are looking into it.
Exciting! I can't to pick up some gear with these new fabrics in 5 years when it's maybe almost affordable.
😂😂
It's not bad for the backpacks I've seen using it.
Buy "used"
*inflation has entered the chat*
If is made out of recycled plastic, it's still made out of plastic. What's the difference? Effective marketing is effective.
Does it make you feel better knowing that you're wearing something that was "supposedly" once garbage? When it's gets old and you throw it away will it still be garbage or will it be once recycled twice garbage, and thats better?
It's still not lighter than dyneema. What's dyneema hybrid?
Seriously cool stuff! I'm super excited to see what manufacturers can do with this fabric. Will be interesting to see if/when someone tries tarps or tents (or maybe they already have!). Great overview!
That's something I'm interested in, too!
@@john_kelley are there tents made from this yet?
Is dyneema, crinkly, stiff, when cold? more likely ti rip/tear/crack in cold weather?
Great video my man!
Excellent topic and great presentation!
Thanks John great information ✌
No Problem!
Bravo John! Explained very well!
Thanks, Buckley!
You are rad, man. Great breakdown. I'm in for ecopak.
So the answer to the question in the video's title is, No. Dyneema is not dead. The big elephant in the room for these "new" fabrics is the cost. Dyneema is still less expensive, mainly due to the cost of recycling to make Ecopak. Thankfully, dyneema has been using recycled material for the past year due to a partnership with Clariter.
Interesting video. But what I want to know is why apparently no company has yet tried using one of these new fabric alternatives in a tent. It’s also pretty remarkable that the giants like Osprey and Gregory still aren’t using anything other than nylon. Is that a function of supply, that is are the alternative fabrics not being manufactured in a quantity sufficient to supply the big companies?
Another commenter mentioned the weight of the fabric in it's current form is the problem. An ultra 200 tent would weigh around 4 or 5 pounds. The dyneema used in tents is currently at .55oz a yard and ultra in over 5oz a yard. Once they can make a thin enough version that's got the tensile strength to do it, it'll happen.
The weight difference in a dry bag, stuff sack or bear bag is minimal for ecopak vs dyneema. But spread that out over an entire tent and the weight difference becomes significant and at the same price. So... just not there yet
osprey isnt using DCF or ultra because of their durability issues. both have a tendency to delaminate over time. that doesnt work well with ospreys all mighty guarantee that covers a backpack for its lifetime. they do use a few UHMWPE fabrics like a ripstop fabric in some of their "pro" line of backpacks... like the exos pro 55. AFAIK tho these fabrics are not laminated. they are a lot lighter tho than the standard nylon that osprey uses in its packs. they have at least 3 different pro packs and each one uses a different fabric for its main construction from the other packs as far as im aware of.
Definitely a hot topic in the space right now! I'm curious, in your research how did the weight of epx stand up to dyneema/ultra? In what I've found it appears to be heavier. epx seems the most eco-friendly right now. Seems like ultra will dethrone dcf, it's slightly more expensive but has all the properties of dcf while being more durable. nice video JK!
Epx should be compared more with xpac. That's really the competitor for that product. I have two epx packs right now, and they're both performing incredibly.
Dyneema is the strongest fiber and lowest carbon footprint. Made in the USA, with bio based polymer, 100% renewable energy and zero emissions. Paying decent salaries and full benefits to American workers. Unfortunately these other materials I guess can’t claim the same….
@@marciom1640 That is completely false. Dyneema is a composite of PET and UHMWPE that is highly oriented. Both of those materials are straight up petroleum products and two of the highest volume polymers in the world.
Is ECOpak 50W can be used for tarp?
Cost of materials? Can an DIY’r order up yards at a reasonable price?
I've just recently started making drybags for sale and I am gonna have to start using some xpac now
Enjoying it so far!
I'm definitely a fan
Is this like a I gotta buy The White Album as a CD now even though I have the cassette?
😂
Maybe this is a stupid question but wouldn't a triangle be stronger than a diamond or square?
This seems great, looks like it’s all superior in every category. Is it cheaper, that would really be nice 😊
Just got a new UL pack from Nashville Packs made from Ultra. Absolutely LOVE it!
HOT TAAAKKE. I just learned about this a few days ago. Thanks for the info.
Big question: cost ?
Hmmm interesting! Can’t wait for more updates on this
Me too.
Awesome video...thanks.
I picked up a 1733 Side Pack in Ultra200 and love it.
How man miles have you hiked this year?
Wow very enlightening
Glad you enjoyed it
Cost comparisons ???
Might be recycled. In Ten years will you recycle the bag to keep it out of landfills or the ocean?
I’m not the best at algebra, but I think if they were all 45 degree angles, they’d be octagons😁
LOL!!! Yeah....math isn't my thing. 😂🤦🏻♂️
The thing to understand is "dyneema" is a brand name like "Band-AIDS", makes uhmw-pe fibers. There are plenty of off brands of UHMW-pe fibers, and i would guess this is such a product. What generally makes Dyneema better than the competitors, is that they've been at it much longer and have worked out all the kinks, and have been improving their product since its conception. UHMW is widely available and has been for a very long time, but the process to turn it into such fibers is relatively new, it's inevitable that someone will start to invest in the tech. Whether they can catch up remains to be seen.
Nice AG hoodie. I like the color choice
Seek outside is making packs in ecopack right now.
Dyneema is way better at not absorbing the water and staying a lot lighter when wet. I would be more convinced to transition if that was the key feature epx.
For backpacks, Dyneema makes little sense. Tensile strength means nothing when rubbing against rocks.
With tents there's a good case for dyneema but nylon and polyester are strong enough. But on dyneema if you get a hole in that very thin PET layer your tent is leaking.
well dynemia was used by MIT to build ultralight ultrathin solar cells that can also be woven into fabric... so I dunno...
I’m still hooked on the full woven Spectra packs of the early 90s…
Vintage gear! I hate that the 90's are considered vintage. 🤦🏻♂️
@@john_kelley At just over 2lbs, I find it hard to buy something else.
Kriz, any particulars?
Is it any cheaper?
The price is roughly the same. In some cases, a little more. In others, a little less. It really just depends on the company.
Let's hope all this new competition helps bring down the cost to a more reasonable level
That would be amazing
@Gone Awry but that wouldn't be hiker bling. Don't you know hiking is all about showing off your latest gear to everyone even if it's just the squirrels 🐿️🐿️😆
Dyneema is produced in the USA, paying decent salaries and full benefits. Dyneema is Bio based, produced with zero emissions and 100% renewable energy. Dyneema is the strongest fiber and lowest carbon footprint. Doing the right things doesn’t come cheap
Hopefully the strain on materials and urge to save the environment doesn't compromise the importance of durability in ultralight gear. Dyneema doesn't age as well as silnylon but it's positive qualities are impossible to ignore. Still I use silnylon over a decade old on multiple thru hikes with no deformation. My fear is that one day I'll be sleeping inside a $1,000 plastic grocery bag.
Cool bit what about cost.
The problem with Ecopak is that it's laminated. Sails made from Challenge sailcloth (Ecopak) don't last as long as their Dacron (polyester) counterparts as laminants tend to delaminate. Think of that eVent jacket that started flaking apart inside at year four.
Out of the box, it has good characteristics; however, it won't survive as long as its competitors that aren't laminated.
If you're buying new gear every couple of years, it won't matter. If you keep your gear for years, it does. The "recycled" aspect doesn't appeal to me as much, as I tend to purchase gear with the intention of keeping it for years instead of tossing it in a landfill.
That being said UHMWPE isn't dead by any stretch, then again, it doesn't stretch much.
Dyneena is laminated in its construction as well. Of course different materials and possibly different adhesives. Time will certainly tell
@@BenMcmillen I thought it was woven?...then I looked it up after your post.
My primary use tend to be for sailboat rigging. I've used sails made from both Challenge and DCF, but I rely on Dacron when I require endurance over performance. A fabric that doesn't endure doesn't tend to perform in the long run.
Thanks for the info. I'm wondering if using the fabric for sails is more intense on the fabric or if backpacking is. I've had xpac packs for several years, and I'm having no issues with them, and they're laminated as well. Definitely something to think about. Great stuff!
@@wisenber you can add an additional woven layer to dyneena like their 2.92 or 5.0 for added abrasion resistance. This is what packs are made of. But the lighter dyneena, 1.43, 1.0, .51 is not woven. The dyneema strands themselves are not woven.
@@john_kelley It's not so much intensity as to the types of stresses. A sail isn't likely to get drug over rocks or encounter thorns. A pack isn't going to have thousands of pounds of dynamic windforces in a saltwater environment. A pack also isn't likely to have the same level of continuous UV exposure that a sail will either. You're also not relying on a sail to keep anything dry.
The biggest benefit I got from Dyneema on a sailboat was getting rid of the heavy steel cables that didn't allow faults to be detected easily and replacing it with a material light enough to float and actually stretched less than steel while making failures more visible.
Laminated sails stretch less and provide more performance potential at the expense of longevity, reliability and field repair.
Meanwhile, my old GoLite Pinnacle made from xpac is going strong thousands of miles later.
I really like how it’s using recycled water bottles. Cool video brother 👊🏻
Thanks, brother! I enjoyed that off road video of yours!
Ultra is better for backpacks, but DCF is definitely not dead for tents, tarps, and stuff sacks.
Cool video bro! I may have watched 3 times. 😂 The different names are a little confusing. Not real impressed with the first two fabrics. Really want to see Ultra. Price of the 3 and dyneema about the same?
From what I've seen they're about the same if not a little cheaper.
The Hilltop Packs 50W is made by challenge sailcloth but it is not part of the Ecopak line nor is it recycled…
It certainly is recycled and is part of the ecpak line. It's just not on their website.
Yeah. It’s definitely part of the ecopak line and recycled.
@@BenMcmillen what is the 50w’s product name from challenge (Ex. EPX200 is the new Xpac alternative you guys are using)?
@@Luke-ve3sx it's not on their website. You won't find it. Not sure what your point is.
@@BenMcmillen my point is, according to challenge sailcloth directly, your 50w is the following; (directly quoted from CS via email)
It is called DTRS75 this is all virgin polyester, not recycled.
D: it is made specifically for Dhow boats that are raced in the Middle East.
TRS: Triple Ripstop
75: .75mil polyester film backing
Are you saying this is incorrect or it is not the same fabric that you are using?
Man those bags were nice John. The material look very nice on it too. That's awesome to hear how good it handles in rough condition man. Good Video buddy thank you for sharing.
Thanks, Mack!
Thanks for the shoutout !
Any time!
Certainly exciting alternative for backpacks, but they'll need to make a lighter ULTRA fabric (maybe a future ULTRA 100?) before this can be used for tents / shelters.
I contacted Zpacks to see if they would be making an Altaplex in the near future made of ULTRA 200, because who wouldn't want the added benefits of the ULTRA 200 material (tear strength and wear resistance) right? The Altaplex is made out of a much lighter DCF that is 0.55 oz/sqyd for the canopy and the floor is 1 oz/sqyd. Compare that to ULTRA 200 that is 3.5 oz/sqyd. According to Zpacks an Altaplex made from ULTRA 200 material would be 4 to 5 lbs!!!
I did some research online that said ULTRA 200 is 5.9 oz/sqyd.
For comparison, the Altaplex made from 0.55 oz/sqyd DCF and 1 oz/sqyd DCF is 15.4 oz. Equivalent tent constructed from ULTRA would be 4 to 5 lbs (according to Zpacks). Not exactly light!
Like the rest of the hiking community, I am very excited to see a new material on the market. Hopefully in the future, they'll be able to engineer a lighter weight ULTRA / EcoPack material comparable to the lightweight DCF fabrics that can be used for shelters.
That would definitely be awesome
Ultra 100 is already out there, check out the new Zpacks Arc Haul Ultra or SWD Movement pack :)
Ultra100 will work for backpacks. Some cottage vendors are testing it out. Swd has some. I think DCF will be around a while still. I have three DCF tents and a DCF back from Nashville Packs. It’s still very very good product. I have some ultra200 that ima make a bear bag out of.
I noticed that a big portion of the video focused on sustainability and I want to make sure the community knows that DCF is made from bio-based Dyneema.
Its not completely waterproof, so why would i want this? Still gotta go dyneema
Ecopak = Witchcraft. DCF, Sil Polyester & Xpac = The Lord's Work. Now that we've established this baseline, I'm possibly interested in this witchcraft you speak of.
😂😂😂😂😂
#IAMANERD!! haha appreciate the input and thorough investigation brotha!!😁✌️💚
I thought this was about the armor side of things not backpacking
Dyneema always was overkill for ultralight backpacking. Wanna get kicked off of an ultralight backpacking group on social media quick?
Ask them why do they need to spend $400 on a pack made of such a strong fabric if they're only carrying 10lbs of gear in their packs? 😂 Amazon is selling packs that weigh 33oz for $45 and not only are they of a decently sturdy nylon, but they're framed AND fully featured (lid, well padded shoulder straps & waist belt with pockets, rain cover, etc...).
just waiting for zpacks to get on an ecopak plexsolo lol
Right?!?!?!?
Is it cheaper
It really just depends on the company selling it. It seems to be basically the same price.
@@john_kelley ok thank you for your videos the really help me out
You really should be mentioning upfront that this is a sponsored video, or that they sent your stuff for free.
Companies already know that there customers will pay outrageous prices to have the lightest tent / backpack know matter what it’s made from....!
I have a toilet paper tent that is SOOO light. Not very durable tho
Backpacks, sure. Tents, not yet.
Grüsse aus Deutschland Heilbronn, das ist ja geil das EPL Ultra, danke für den Tip.
Just purchased and received an Ultra 20L Curve from LiteAf for my son. By far the best made pack I seen. The worst part of it is figuring out how to tell my wife the Hyperlite 3400 she bought me for Christmas isn’t going to work so I can order the larger ultra curve. Thanks LiteAf 🙄
😂Good luck!
Your next video should be “Good wives buy husbands Ultra LiteAf 46L Curves for Father’s Day”. That might help me out.
If interested in selling the 3400, let me know. I could shoot you my email. Thanks.
Cheers
The one pack to rule them all is the SWD Long Haul in Ultra 200 - waterproof, stronger and lighter. Def would be interested in the point of saving a few oz of co2 when we have multiple volcanoes spewing thousands if not millions of pounds into the atmosphere...
That's a great pack, and all the volcano activity lately is just crazy!
Not actually waterproof though , you can seam seal though
This doesn't mean Dyneema is dead. It means Dyneema will be mainstream- will be more affordable and available to more backpackers.
You compared all but the price. Dyneema is expensive, loud and flimsy. Don't have any, don't want any. Can't Wait for it to be a thing of the past.
I’d like to see the death of $600 one person tents. Let’s go tent makers, get those costs down!
That may be something we'll be hoping for for a long time....with no payoff. 😭😂
how much is the right price in your mind? and why, if you will? I'll argue that even at the top of the top of the line gear....for 2500.00 I could outfit a person for any non expedition hike in the world for many years to come. No one would have better or lighter gear. Short of some board games what could you do cheaper than that? I used to say a racket sport maybe...on public courts. But the best racket is more expensive. Boat, fish, hunt, cycling, quads, other desert stuff, horse riding.....everything is more expensive (and less fulfilling) than 2500.00. and at that you have the best gear available for years. It's only this way because someone can build a far inferior product that looks the same but isn't. You are comparing dyneema gear to a fake rolex. It's not apples to apples and while I expect many young people don't have the funds for the best of the best, it would be the same for any hobbie, it doesn't mean that these things are over priced. You'd think I worked for these knuckleheads....I just hear it so much and its just less true than many think. You have a great day - and you better get it at 600.00 before it goes up. That was the exact excuse I gave my wife - eventually zpacks was gonna figure out they had the best tent as well as one of the cheapest in the class. They did and now mine is 700.00. It's a lot but once you pull the bandaide off it really is a great tent.
@@nedanother9382 haha. So true
Hello fren
Protective plates.
good for backpacks, but nowhere near as lightweight for tents and tarps, dyneema is here to stay
I hope it’s cheaper. That would get more people out into nature.
It is cheaper, and a little bit heavier, but it’s more durable then Dyneema. How ever DCF hybrids like the one HMG uses for their packs is very durable so you get the benefits of Dyneema without sacrificing much durability, also gear companies are using thin dinewhich is why I use an HMG pack my self. Dyneema is hands down still the best material for gear it’s 15x stronger then steel there’s a reason it’s still the most expensive fabric
It's comparable on pretty much every level. Justin Sylvester from "It's Good In The Woods" actually took a piece of the 50W and has been actively trying to tear it, and he isn't making a dent. He's even getting other people to try. You should check out his video.
@@john_kelley interesting, I have to check that out, it’s definitely a cool new fabric and very comparable to Dyneema making it ideal for backpacking gear. Exciting times…
hopefully, with competition, prices will come down
That would be glorious!
Dyneema is produced in the USA, paying decent salaries and full benefits, produced with 100% renewable energy, bio based fiber, and zero emissions. Dyneema the strongest fiber with lowest carbon footprint. To protect the people and the environment don’t come for free. Unfortunately the “other materials” I guess can’t claim any of that! Ask them these questions
@@marciom1640 Dyneema is made in the Netherlands by DSM
@@john_kelley Dyneema largest production facility is in Greenville North Carolina, USA e DCF is produced in Mesa Arizona, USA. Dyneema has a site in the Netherlands but the fiber is not used in DCF. So, Dyneema for DCF is produced in the USA, with bio based polymer, 100% renewable energy, zero emissions, and paying decent salaries and full benefits……it is the strongest fiber with lowest carbon footprint.
I have been wondering about all these new fabrics replacing dyneema for a while now. I think dyneema's days are numbered
We'll see. It really just depends on if it becomes more accessible. I've also seen where they expect the price of it to go down significantly after 2024, but it's worth monitoring.
The fisrt is exactly the same as dyneema, UHMWPE
is Dyneema dead?Yes if you could make ropes and slings from Ecopak, but I think it`s not possible, so...
Ultimately DCF is still lighter than this new fabric.
Not dead, just in a more competitive market. Ill stick with my dyneema
Is it cheaper than DCF? If not, who cares. Silnylon 4ever!!!!
I prefer to employ an impoverished Cuban to carry all my gear as I found carrying my own equipment made me sweat. He’s 100% recyclable and only requires a minimal amount of discarded food to survive. USA USA USA.
Sorry guys. Just had to.
😳
Co2 makes plants grow and thrive. Thanks for contributing to the stunting of the growth of plants we need due to deforestation. Smh... if only people looked at the actual science and could understand it. It's not that hard.
Zpacks ultra 200 is way better
I find it hilarious that these ultralighters pay so much money to essentially carry around a trash bag on their back, and think they're doing some service to nature.
Nothing compares to dyneema you just said that and then proved it. Because all you're doing is recycling Polly nylon dyneema blends. So you're making cheap dinima want to bes.