REVIEW : Vinyl Noise Reduction System Pro-ject NRS Box S3
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- Опубликовано: 9 дек 2022
- This new addition to Pro-ject's HiFi range aims to de-crackle your records and reduce surface noise - I bought one to see how well it worked.
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![Pro - Ject Phono Box RS [Reduktor Szumu] #302](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/OJecIVvRwFM/mqdefault.jpg)
I had noticed there were very few reviews of this. Now I know why. All those RUclips reviewers who won't do negative reviews for fear of alienating manufacturers are steering clear of this one.
Thanks to Techmoan for buying his own stuff (mostly) and being straightforward in his review process.
At this point, Techmoan alone would probably make issuing the RUclips Audio Library in every format from wax cylinder to VR worth it to the company.
YT needs to have a way to whitelist verified creators from the content blockers.
@@TonyP9279 as much as I hate RUclips sometimes it isn't thier fault that the copyright system is so fucking broken. That is all on the companies who constantly sued them over it to get the money from ads. From a business standpoint it's cheaper and easier to just give those companies what they want instead of fighting every single one in court.
@@Demonslayer20111 and the Digital Millennium Copyright Act itself is totally broken.
@@tituslafrombois1164 yup. And guess who lobbied for that
@@Demonslayer20111 Doesn't matter who lobbied for it
several years ago, i was digitizing my noisy records and used a computer program "audio cleaning lab" from germany.
it took me several hours to get the hang of it, but it did a reasonable job of reducing noise. i preceeded to digitize hundreds
of vinyl records and cassettes. the program set me back $40 and was worth it as many albums i had were not available
on cd.
Your silent record has just sparked a memory. Many moons ago I was in a pub which had an old fashioned jukebox that played records. I noticed that music would be playing and then there would be long spurts of silence, then without anyone returning to the jukebox, music would start playing again. The landlord informed me that there was actually a silent record in the jukebox, and the old farts in the pub who wanted some quiet time would actually put money in the jukebox and select the silent record. And by all accounts, it was quite popular. Maybe this wasn't as rare as I thought, but I had never encountered this before.
Thank you for once again providing us with a thorough, methodical evaluation of a product. You demonstrate it, make real-world commentary about what you're doing and why, while calmly talking to us like we're in the room with you.
You've earned and deserve every single one of your subscribers.
I do enjoy my Saturday mornings with Techmoan, even though I haven't the slightest use for a vinyl decrackler!!
Even Radio Shack had such home audio accessories, which in my opinion, were just another gadget to display on your rack. However, there WAS a professional studio device called a TNE (Transient Noise Eliminator). I have 2 of these in my collection. They are purely analog, and you can monitor and hear the Difference of what sound is being eliminated. They are rare to say the least. Good vid !
Hello UsJoe.... you beat me to the comment. Back in the day (70's), I came across the plans for a Transient Noise Eliminator like you mentioned. I modified it to work at line level instead of between the cartridge and the Phono input. I built this device as I was at the end of what I could tolerate in records. Unlike the one tested here, mine worked flawlessly and completely eliminated any trace of the click/pop as if it never existed, like magic. You could adjust the sensitivity to suit the condition of the record. This device is a boondoggle. It clearly does not work and for the price, they are selling people a bill of goods for high prices just like with the so-called High End Audio equipment today. Back in our day, pretty much ALL amps from ALL name brand manufacturers could deliver the quality and performance that today's equipment CANNOT do unless you are prepared to pay thousands. Even then you need sub woofers as the amps are not capable today. Back then it was standard performance. That being said, why anyone would purposely want to use vinyl records as a source is beyond me. I grew up with that technology and I can tell you there is NOTHING better or even good about it. Those who claim 'it sounds better, more warm etc' are delusional. There is absolutely NO science to support this. I do appreciate this video as it just shows so called 'Audiophiles' are being conned. That's my rant for today. :-)
@@Starlight-AG Thanx for response. The units I have employ a headphone jack which monitors JUST the sounds being eliminated with a special switch. All you hear are low rumbles and high crackles and pops. I would adjust the gain until I just barely started to discern the audio signal source. I have remastered many of my reel 2 reel recordings with this method satisfactorily. As for the digital to analog debate, let's save it for a another time, as I am one of the proponents of raw analog tube amps etc. which I believe DOES create a sense of warmth and depth as opposed to digital. Regards - US Joe
@@Starlight-AG "Warm" is just the result of a physical object with mass and inertia being moved around in a magnetic field. Since there is limits to how fast it can be accelerated/decelerated plus a mechanical range limit, the actual analog signal can be warmer (as in frequency blending) over say, a digital encoding. It's the audio equivalent of say a soft focus in photography with Photoshop acting as RIAA post amplification. I can't personally say though that on decently produced samples of each (LP vs CD), that this warmth was detectable. An audiophile would point out that my amp transformer is only copper wound, not silver .. thus I won't hear any difference
love mine. Had two, gave the other away. The remaining unit may be pried from my cold, dead hands. ;)
@@xenuno I'ts also an emotional feeling of the heart for us humans.
I collected LP's from the early 1960's up to about 1983 when CD's became available. At the later date I had an SAE 5000 INRS (Impulse Noise Reduction System) which I used for LP playback. That was a clearly superior product to the one demoed in this video. It didn't just reduce the clicks and pops, it actually cut out a few milliseconds of the feed containing the click and substituted an equal length snippet of the audio immediately prior to the cut. It also had an "Inverse" function that allowed listening to the audio that was being removed. One could select inverse and then adjust the sensitivity to just below the level where musical content was being affected. It is a fantasy to suggest that only "old" LP's require noise reduction to be listenable. A brand new out of the wrapper vinyl record will have not just the ever present "hiss" of surface noise but outright clicks, likely due to to dust particles. And yes, there are ways of reducing but not eliminating (short of a clean room) dust clicks. Within a few years of halting LP purchases software noise reduction apps became available. The first one I used was DART (Digital Audio Reconstruction Technology). These types of apps are not for real time use. Currently, I use the NR tools in Magix Sound Forge. iZotope also has a similar suite of NR tools. Years ago I transcribed all 600 of my LP's to CD using such tools. I still use them for transcribing a collection of about 5,000 78 RPM records I inherited from my father. Although the software tools can make a significant improvement in a single automated pass the best results still require manual intervention. It can easily take an hour or so to achieve the best results on a 3.5 minute 78 side. Here is a link to a 78 from 1923 that was restored using Sound Forge: soundcloud.com/synoptic-designs-studio/cinderella-blues-herb-wiedoefts-cinderella-rooftop-orchestra-1923
Just looked athat your recording. It was quite clear. Do you have the original before you edited it in sound forge for a comparason.
@@davidboyd7357 Of course. I have a collection of apx. 5,000 78's I inherited from my father. That particular recording was in better than average original condition. I have been restoring several hundred of them starting more than 20 years ago. The original Windows app I used was DART (Digital Audio Reconstruction Technology). I do now use Sound Forge. The technology has improved a lot since the early days.
I remember buildng a de-scratcher back in the 70's from a circuit in - I think - ETI, may have been EE. It detected the scratch and replaced it with a short period of silence. It wasn't very good!!! Luckily, there is now a brilliant way to eliminate the noise, distortion, lack of dynamic range, channel imbalance and expense of vinyl. It's called the Compact Disc 😊😊
I thought one of the only benefits of vinyl was the possibility for more dynamic range. At least in the modern age.
@@AudioHead809 Yeah, in most cases. You have to be careful while buying CDs, most of them sound like crap because of awful mastering.
The good ones though? The good ones are exceptionally good. Better than any other (popular) physical format out there.
Exactly... The whole point of vinyl these days is enjoying fumbling with the physical media and listening to all its imperfections.
@@AudioHead809 the reality is that the dynamic range starts out as about half of a CD. Each time the disc is played, it reduces as the grooves wear. Even modern vinyl and production is limited - the groove width is limited, even with the RIAA encoding. It's the main reason all the classical music buffs flocked to CD when they first appeared (even if the players were a bit harsh back then! They have improved massivly over the years) - it was the first time that classical music could be heard as nature ntended!!!
So sorry to inform you that the various manufacturers are killing off CD's & DVD's while vinyl is making a comeback.
The reason the bass goes away with the rumble filter is that it’s likely just a high pass filter. Which also means that cranking up the bass to compensate will just crank the rumble back up.
It's as if one just can't remove noise in the analog domain...like an intrinsic property of signals. Imagine if you could just "remove" noise from RF transmissions...
(that'd be a high pass filter, though I understand it was probably a typo on your part!!)
@@graealex it's possible to remove noise from RF. SDRsharp does this very well
@@juniorsilvabroadcast Not really. I mean, "just removing". SNR is an intrinsic property of signals, and if removing noise was possible, you could receive any arbitrarily weak signal, because without noise, it'd be possible to amplify it without degradation.
If there was a magic "noise-removing thing", we wouldn't need antennas or large transmitter stations.
@@graealex You clearly didn't get what i mean. There's some process of RF Noise supression you can do with DSP processing.
I grew up with vinyl and don't miss it for the inherited reasons demonstrated here. Thanks for sharing your findings with us.
Yeah. At least digital doesn't wear out. Unless you corrupt it, or rip it from a scratched disc :)
Back in the day when records were all we had you just dealt with it and your brain kinda filtered it out, other than scratches. It's almost like having floaters in your eyeballs, after awhile your brain adapts to them. That said, back when I had a nice rig and played my first real and expensive audiophile record of a jazz setting I was amazed at the total background silence and stage presence. Now I just listen on anything and enjoy the actual music.
For me it’s tape hiss, growing up with a basic walkman (but also hearing my father’s fancy hifi). Same auditory phenomenon though.
He definitely played some vinyl on it, and a lot of my tapes were dubs he’d made from vinyl, tape, or CD, but he kept his records clean and so the vinyl dubs didn’t feature many pops if at all.
My biggest problem now is my tinnitus, which sounds like a combination of screeching cicadas and crickets. It can be miserable trying to get to sleep at night.
@Lena Lyons as long as the records are stored and treated properly they don't develop crackling. Playing a record on a cheap low record player is a good way to ruin it forever
@@thesteelrodent1796 soome crackling is in fact static electricity.
I agree Chris. Often we get caught up in admiring the media or technology and we forget the fact that it's purpose is to convey the message or song. You can go to a lot of expense and trouble to make your vinyl sound as silent as possible then find you can hear the hiss from the master tapes. Every media isn't perfect, and with my tinnitus nor is my hearing these days (not to mention my floaters), so I try to get lost in the music and cut my tech some slack. Like the pops and clicks for you, my brain thankfully filters the majority of my tinnitus out too. Enjoy your music Chris LJ.
DBX lawyers are having a meeting right now discussing the validity of copyrighting silence.
You know its gonna be a good Techmoan video when the Tri Micron disc is featured
The noise reduction tools in izotope rx are amazing, and do an unbelievable job at removing noise from analogue recordings like LPs.
this is using an on board buffer system and noise reduction in real time , probably using an open source model which is dated. private companies create their own algo so RX and Waves have finetuned the listening experience.
Even in Audacity which he used in the video there's a great click remover. You just select a tiny amount of audio with the click in it, select Click Remover and it removes it almost completely transparently
@@AfferbeckBeats This! There are a shedload of other filters built in to Audacity, including sub-sonic. And it costs £280 less.
@@rommix0 i'm still astonished how I can just go to spectral view and erase away defects without affecting anything else. precision destroy stuff like bird chirps, dog barks, coughs, sniffles, etc. and on top of that, an array of top rate crackle and noise filters.
Excellent review and demonstrates quite effectively why this device is not worth the money. I suspect the rumble filter is similar to a low frequency filter, a device that was common on amplifiers a long time ago. My Sansui AU-7500 [vintage 1974] has low and high filters that I use sparingly, most often for 78's. The low filter is perfect for rumbly Perfects and Pathes from the late '20's, and occasional records that were recorded with a hum from the mains.
Your first test with the TriMicron record absolutely demonstrated a difference with the decrackle performance. The crackles were much more muffled, though still very present, almost like there was just a high pass filter being applied at the moment where a crackle was detected. I'm not suggesting this justifies the product, but there is a clear audible difference that some listeners may prefer. I wonder if this only applies to listeners who still have good high frequency hearing (possibly why you couldn't hear it, sorry?!) and are listening on reasonably high fidelity equipment.
Honestly I have learned more real world practical application of my electronics from techmoan than I have from about anyone else, from the it department at work, to the thousands of books and how to videos. He's not shoving a sponsor down our throats or declaring his choices to to be the end all, and still holds in to his standards and core beliefs. I wish you nothing but continued success and honestly thank you for your content.
@Techmoan,Merry Christmas to you and yours Matt. Thanks for the great videos you produced all year round.
thanks for making these videos, it's really interesting to see products you've never seen or heard of before.
The linked video you put up of the 78 record with a proper stylus was quite amazing. Huge difference! I find that sort of thing really interesting. With the proper stylus, it sounded really great.
I can't find the link
@@deeiks12 ruclips.net/video/9YxQABdJh8Y/видео.html
@@deeiks12 ruclips.net/video/9YxQABdJh8Y/видео.html
Link is in the video at 18:08
@slamcrank and @Buddy Revell :
Nevermind, figured it out, but with all the changes in the layout by RUclips, no wonder I missed it. But I'm sorry for being a bit blunt, but I was annoyed by the bot-like response, instead of just dropping the link, which I'm going to do now, for anyone else having trouble finding it.
Thank you Techmoan. Thank you for all your videos! You answer most of my questions indirectly and i feel that many people can learn from you on a relaxed and fair level!
Please stay true to yourself like you always do, do your stuff in your tempo and style!
I have since gotten from cassettes to vinyl and am now into analog photography and youve helped quite a bit. Right now i am digitizing old car themed VHS Videos... I love to delve into the past.
Take care!
So you went from cassettes to vinyl? Next step on your audio journey will be live performances only. I got a small collection of great musicians, presumed dead, in my freezer. I thaw them out occasionally to hear them perform. :)
@@EvenTheDogAgrees hahaha, thats a good one!
I am listening to cassettes in my car for example or when i am studying over a longer time, so i dont have to get up as often (my nakamichi rx202e even turns the cassette around for me and i was able to get the remote for it hehehe). but when i am listening for my lesure i tend towards vinyl.
I have an SAE 5000 Impulse Noise Reduction unit sitting to my right. This was purchased in the early 80's. It reduces the crackles or click/pops/scratches. A slider on the front to set the sensitivity and buttons to remove the crackles or select only the crackles so you can hear the noises being removed. Setting the sensitivity too high causes some of the music to be discarded. A Supertramp album, Crime of the Century had a bad scratch on the track School. This unit was able to remove most of the scratch. I later purchased a Direct to Disc version of the album which did not have any scratches.
Back in the day SAE made good products.
Dave.
Only techmoan would have a blank vinyl record, lol. Excellent!
I love my debut carbon turntable. Pro-Ject has such a great design language for their products. I would love to see more of their products demoed.
A truly useful review - have been considering getting one of these for some time… think you’ve just saved me a few hundred quid!
I love that you included a link to hear the 78 played with a steel needle! Reminds me of when I worked at my father's antiquarian bookshop in the late 80s, Friday evenings and Sunday afternoons while in high school. 5-6pm was 78 hour; my dad stopped all work, cranked up the phonograph, and started selecting old records. it was so labour intensive - changing the record every 2 minutes.
Techmoan! You make everything interesting to watch and learn about :)
As a test for those one minute pieces with different settings, you could maybe record a one minute section with your digital recorder and play back the same minute for each test.
I think the reason he didn't do that is that there's no way to tell it's the same minute, there's no cue to go by.
@@NeatNit they're saying record one minute of the silent record onto a digital recorder, then send the output of the digital recorder through the s3. So it's the exact same signal every time.
@@brianargo4595 oh, right. that's a good idea :)
I have a SweetVinyl SugarCube Sc1-Mini and I find it works really well. I find a really satisfying difference switching between ‘repair’ and ‘bypass’. Also I notice nothing lacking in the clarity and quality of the music even when turned right up to maximum ‘repair’. It also has a particular nifty feature that the Pro-ject device does not. With the press of a button you can hear ONLY all the cracks and pops (and no music). Again, I’m happy with the performance of my SugarCube to greatly improve crackles, clicks and pops
So if you ever feel like the music ruins the sound of the crackles and pops, you can just listen to them only?? Sounds great, where can I get me one?
@@JaredConnell the point is you can check out the condition of your records in this mode. Somewhat novelty feature yes, but nonetheless interesting.
wait you listen your vinyls for the music and not the beautiful analog sounds created by the dance of stylus and vinyl in divine waltz? What a peasant. Only us real audiophiles understand the true beauty of analog sound.
@@alkestos SweetVinyl should use rubber instead of metal, for their chips' legs, in order to achieve better noise attenuation. Also, the mains cable should be gold covered on the outside, for better conductivity.
Farmers don't know this simple trick. 10k $ please.
That is actually brilliant. You can verify that the "repair" actually works - they can identify and separate the noise, which is the hard part. If that works, they might as well output the repaired music, it's easy.
No more relying on marketing blurb and placebo sorry I mean respected audiophile journalists and their MegaHertz hearing.
How was I not already subscribed to this channel? I thought I was because I watch so much and I get recommended techmoan videos constantly.
You always have an interesting show, I really enjoy it. Thanks
I was watching a video series by Amoeba Music called, "What's in my bag?" The basic premise is that they follow a music celebrity around their LA shop and get them to talk about their favourite records, and pick out a few to purchase. So, I was watching this video, featuring former Skid Row front man Sebastian Bach. Seb mentioned that his house in Jersey was wrecked in a hurricane and his record collection, which included first pressings he purchased as a kid, was ruined. Seb claimed that he was able to cover the albums in glue, and after the glue dried, was able to peel it off, and it made quite a few of the knackered records sound like new. Not the type of thing that I would try with anything I really cared about, but I feel like a test of this method with an unimportant record could make a great Tech Moan video.
Good call! He's talked about this at least once in the past ... maybe more, but I missed it.
ruclips.net/video/alTn6j0D8pI/видео.html
I think he's already done one like this, one or more, where something's is spread on the record then peeled off.
@@AlexBarbu Not just Techmoan. Pretty sure VWestlife, Fran Blanche and dozens of other techy and/or audio RUclipsrs have made videos about using PVA glue to clean records.
Yes, here's Techmoan's video that covers similar. ruclips.net/video/alTn6j0D8pI/видео.html
@@TheKnobCalledTone. Yes, PVA, aka wood glue. It sets like a sheet of plastic, and lifts the dirt off with it. I haven't tried it myself, but I have seen the demos you refer to.
While watching a very old interview with super studio engineer Bob Power I was amazed to discover that during the making of Low End Theory they used something just like this (but entirely analogue) to remove pops/noise from crackly vinyl samples. I still find it pretty amazing that existed back in the 80s/90s as Bob said the unit was some funky old hifi piece that had been floating around a while 😮.
Not sure I see a lot of value in a device that has to digitise it first as there have been effective audio plugins for that at least 15 years probably more like 20+ (eg waves x-click/ x-crackle and izotope rx). The lack of phono preamp also seems silly.
Yeah the analog stuff has been around a long time. I have a early 80's Yamaha R-900 that has Subsonic & High filters. It does a really nice job on cleaning up not so good vinyl. Sadly the Yamaha has been sitting on my bench for two weeks with a power amp issue.
Why wouldn’t it digitize first? It’s a ton easier to produce a good A/D-D/A with some DSP behind it, than an analog processor.
It _is_ silly that there’s no phono pre, though. What was this supposed to be plugged into??
Great evaluation of the Pro-Ject. The effect on pops and clicks is comparable to playing the vinyl wet as far as I could hear with the RUclips compression. Keep up the great videos.
Fantastic video as usual! Thanks for doing this. Love the fact you included some actual analytical data during this video. Cheers! 🤘🎶🤘
My mate has several Sugar cubes and these absolutely work 100%, it’s like listening to CD’s
Like CD's in that there no no clicks. The actual sound is very much vinyl. They're amazing.
I thought you meant sugar cubes impregnated with some psychedelic substance. You probably wouldn't notice the clicks then!
ManyTHNX!! Happy Holidays✌
I absolutely love your videos. There so amazing. Thank you, love from America" Alaska" Merry Christmas my friend.
I think it worked quite well on the record at like 12 minutes, with the passthrough mode i could hear distinct pops they felt quite horrible through my headphones and were greatly reduced on the next playthrough with the decrackle enabled. I'm not sure how much of an issue it would be when playing through speakers though
A bit more expensive than the project device, but really impressive is the Puffin by Parks Audio. It’s twice the price, but allows digital output, so you can let your DAC handle the DA section.
I've been extremely happy with the puffin going on years now. using a dl103 MC and it sounds great. Ive never had to use the "magic" (pop and crackle) feature for much, but it does work well when needed. plus it's a phono preamp for MM and MC
Pro-Ject.
Great video! Thanks. I've only done some crack removal in vinylstudio, but is a lot of work.
Thank you for a great, thorough and honest review, I don't think this device is worth the money and hassle, you help us all so much, greetings from Dallas, TX USA 😀
I've digitized dozens of records using a PC, a USB turntable and Sony Sound Forge software. The noise remover is truly excellent, they've refined it to work really well and remove most clicks and pops. The loudest ones are always stubborn but can be dealt with manually.
I use 'RX 8 Audio Editor' which comes with the latest Sound Forge. It is far superior at removing the clicks and pops without altering the audio quality.
I still have a SAE 5000 "Impulse Noise Reduction System" purchased in the 1970's. It works on an entirely different principle (?), storing a fraction of a second of audio, and substituting that in place of sound with a detected pop. I think my results are slightly better than your tests, although I couldn't do tests like yours in the 1970's.
I purchased the SAE after seeing a live demonstration in a HiFi store (remember those?) where the demonstrator took a 33RPM vinyl disk, and using a ruler and a razor blade, made a deep groove from edge to opposite edge. When played without the SAE (or bypassed), as you might expect, we heard a big pop twice each revolution. With the SAE in the signal path, the pop was totally removed, amazing to hear and quite impressive. But after trying out my purchase in the real world and getting less rewarding results, I came to the conclusion that if you have records with a large groove from a razor blade, this was the perfect solution. Unfortunately, I have never owned any records like that, so the SAE is a much less remarkable fix. Still, on occasion, when reviving records from garage sale sources, it has been useful.
YES! OMG! I had one too. It did a way better job than this new-fangled digital BS. 😊
I had the same SAE 5000 as I noted in a comment above.
This system is a modern iteration of the Dynaural system introduced by HH Scott in 1946. Dynaural made it possible for radio stations to play gramophone records over the air, and was blamed for killing live music on radio.
@@Columba_Kos Dont even want to try timeshifting when AMPEX started developing prosumer and broadcasting level R2R. The core concept of the magnetic tape recording (to profesional level) was to avoid the rush of live shows. Yes probably killed the magic
I have a SweetVinyl Sugar Cube. Based on your tests, the Sugar Cube works great where this seems not to do all that much. Pricy, but when you listen and notice pops and crackles, you can't unhear them. Thanks for your in-depth testings.
If you hear a crackle on a vinyl intro, you know, somebody has loved that vinyl and played it to death.
Leave it as it is, its like dodgy fading on a tape, it lets you know somebody else loved it.
Might be interesting to see how well this unit's pop/crackle processing compares with an old Burwen Research DNF-1201A, which I believe was also sold under the KLH brand as the TNE-7000. Those old units processed audio signals entirely in the analog domain, and, as I recall (disclaimer: it's been a long time), did a very respectable job of reducing transient noise events like ticks and pops.
Clean your records in an ultrasound cleaner. It’s the most effective way. I bought one from China and it is the best purchase I’ve made in years.
Good advice, but it won't help with scratches.
@@tomkent4656 Nothing will really.
@@tomkent4656 77
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That sounds like a bad idea. Ultrasonic cleaners work by creating cavitation bubbles in the liquid medium. Cavitation is known to erode even metal surfaces, like bronze ship propellors, so it would likely damage the surface of a soft material like vinyl. Commercial records cleaners, like my Nitty Gritty record cleaning machine work by first applying a specially formulated neutral pH liquid surfactant formula to the record surface, gently wiping to help loosen dirt, and then vacuuming off the liquid containing the emulsified dirt before it dries.
@@avsystem3142 Vinyl records do just fine in ultrasound cleaners, you don’t know what your are talking about.
on the bright side, the "Galvanic pure bypass if switched OFF" feature worked really well
I have a Sweetvinyl SugarCube and they are awesome. Does exactly what it says it will. Completely wipes out crackles and pops. As you say though, very expensive. I bought mine in a bout of, “I can spend myself out of this depression.” Probably wouldn’t do again but it is a an incredible device.
There are a few things like this around. Puffin DSP Phono Preamp from Parks Audio is pretty darn good too, but some of them are really expensive. People who are audio nuts tend to spend a lot of money on things like this.
This Pro-ject one, VNRS, without the decrackle, is basically a filter that blocks the low end, like a subsonic filter. If you increase the bass to compensate for it, you'd likely bring the rumble back.
It's way cheaper to buy a 5 dollar cd and be done with it.
Seems like a bit more than just a bandpass filter. Certainly that's a key method of it's operation, but if that's all it was it wouldn't need to digitize the stream. It's definitely doing some other mathematical processing to the signal (the effectiveness of this is left to your own opinion) - You can hear it, too. Not just a bandpass filter.
@@UnitSe7en If you used computer based NR they profile the noise alone and then the plugin deducts it from the audio, but the bass always seems somewhat affected too, especially if you're aggressive with the NR settings. I presume this is doing something similar but with a pre-profiled noise. It would be way cheaper to get a computer audio interface and use plugins, at least for the rumble reduction.
@@UnitSe7en digital EQ means higher profit margins for Pro-Ject. Relatively cheap converters (ie not bottom of the barrel) match or out-perform the characteristics listed. It keeps the component cost and signal chain small too.
It’s possible there’s pre-profiled noise filtration like the other person said, but I think a lot of it is just carefully chosen notch filters. You can hear the crackles which are higher or lower pitch make it through, it only blocks an average-pitched pop.
@@MrMurUK Seems to be the gist of it - A computer and your pick of software is cheaper and better. Although not as convenient, depending on your use case.
I bought my Sweet Vinyl SC-1 Mini Sugar Cube when it was an Indigo fundraiser in 2020, and love it to this day. It is an indispensable part of my stereo kit. RCM's can get only so much dust and dirt out of the record grooves ...it doesn't matter how much or how thoroughly you clean your records. While I do love vinyl - I have been an audiophile since I started collecting in the 1960s, but the pops, clicks, and surface noise were always bothersome to my ears. No longer. Additionally, I have the same TriMicron Beethoven LP you tested in the video. Even after a thorough RCM clean the pops and clicks are reduced but still annoying. Set the SC-1 Mini to minimum and it's dead quiet, just music.
Man you need to try Ultrasonic cleaning(the proper way, not a humminguru or similar). It truly gets every bit of dust and grime out of the deepest and finest grooves.
@@JtBrown-el4xt A Humminguru or Degritter with proper surfactants does a perfect job. The issue most people have with any sort of cleaning is not using a surfactant. The grooves in most vinyl is just too fine for water to penetrate due to surface tension.
I also have a Sweet Vinyl mini and am very pleased with its results.
I love that you still use the little fella to explain things in the corner
I was listening through my early 1990s Technics separates and clearly noticed the difference in the bass when you activated the noise filter. I'm going to play it again through my BT headset (DOQAUS Care 1) a bit later to compare.
... Thanks for the video! ☺
Lol this is very audiophile indeed. In the end it all goes to _"Well, screw music, let's feed it some raw test audio"_ . . . and then _"Well, screw listening, let's just input some electronic signal, then look at waveforms and go on about stats and dBs."_ Reminds me of my elite audio parties with friends, in front of the oscilloscope: _"Wow, look at that THD! Your system is really amazing!"_ _"Indeed, we could even listen to it, if I had any speakers!"_
It would be interesting to capture the line output of the record player and the NRS box concurrently, then subtract the waveform of one from t'other and see what you get. Would it be nothing but inverted noise and rumble?
This remind me of your CD Edge Shaver, the same disappointed feeling, its about the device obviously.
Thanks for demonstrating this.
Thank very much for your review!
Excellent video. Assuming you want a physical audio source the simple solution to removing cracks and pops is to listen to a CD. The amount of faffing you need in terms of turntable set up and vinyl care / cleaning to get a vinyl LP playing well far outweighs the vaunted benefits of the analogue sound (IMHO). My current turntable is a Linn with a Nagaoka cartridge and 99 times out of 100 I tend to chuck a CD on.
@Pixie Pete Because most records just don't hold a candle to their CD equivalents? I also have a Technics MK2 with a Shure M97ED and find myself listening to more and more digital media each day.
Did this weirdo just block me for no reason?
Amstrad 800 MK III amp back in the 70's had a rumble filter and scratch filter.
It probably worked about as well as this one does lol
@@TheKnobCalledTone. Yep, it's was an 8000 MK III (missed a 0 off) but it was just like adjusting the base or treble.
I love the little technoman!
I love that as soon as I saw the title I went, "He's gonna try it on that TriMicron record." That bad boy is infamous on this channel.
I found the rumble reduction immediately noticeable on the first record, so at least that part is definitely effective.
For the de-crackle, to my ears it didn't _eliminate_ any crackles, but did take the harsh high-frequency edge off them; depending on your hearing and age this might not be as noticeable, and it did require being cranked up fairly high for it to be a meaningful difference.
It would be interesting to zoom way in on your recorded audio track wherever you have a big spike and see how the _shape_ of each impulse differs before/after turning on de-crackle. Even if the "peak" is just as high, if it's got a more gradual roll-off in the signal after the spike, it will eliminate a lot of the high frequencies in the click which will make it less audible over other audio.
That being said, I felt that both features (even when maxed) had a very minimal negative effect on the sound quality of the "intended" audio coming through, so Pro-ject have done a great job on that front; almost all "noise reduction" systems I've tried to listen to before end up making the actual audio muddied and unpleasant.
It's not the strongest effect, but I felt both settings were a net benefit (at least to me). Certainly no scam, and for the right kind of listener with the right kind of vinyl collection, this would be a pretty useful device.
Was thinking it would be nice to see a side by side of the same section of audio with and without the device. I'd just record it in to the computer without, then play it back from the computer through the device, so you can see how the thing changes the exact same crackles.
@@johngaltline9933 yeah that's the part I felt was missing in the video, something weird given that Techmoan is usually very thorough on his approach.
For the price it should do more, I think. Seems like a few inline digital presets that a full modern receiver set could handle. A sort-of physical, knobby/button-y (but digital inside) placation device to make the vinyl heads feel like their format can seem as clean as a cd. I like how you didn't exactly recommend this. Great work again Matt! 🙂
Thanks Matt, as always! :) It will certainly come in handy for those who don't have many sound quality claims, but it's clear that, in addition to not solving the problem as we would hope, it also destroys the audio, which a very common software would do if not used with caution, such as Adobe Audition. As the film restoration school teaches us, the only way to remove noise as cleanly as possible, wtihout touching too much the main signal, is to work on every single click, manually.
I've always been envious of people who have the wherewithal to get products to market that don't do anything and actually make a living like that. It would open up so many possibilities.
uhh perfect timing for my breakfast!!!
@@RockProductionsYT he probably doesn't live in your country
@@RockProductionsYT UK 10am actually.
@@Aidenkong523 He lives in the UK what a surprise so does Techmoan, its 10am.
in the early 70s, I use something called a DBX noise reduction box that had a variable background hiss eliminator. I used this to transfer old 78s to tape. I had an album by Roverta Flack called Killing Me Softly that had a noticeable hiss in the background. This box removed it completely.
DBX produced a lot of noise reduction boxes. Many of them were "double ended" systems that required both DBX encoding and decoding. I remember having one of those boxes long ago and use it to make super-clean recordings to cassettes. But of course, then I could only play those cassettes back through the same box. It was fine for my home hi-fi system, but I couldn't use those cassettes in a car, walkman, or trade them with other folks.
DBX also produced "single end" boxes that you could feed any noisy, non-encoded signal into for cleanup. I have one of those now, called a SNR-1, and it has some value when playing back most ordinary LP records.
I have that record, (original UK press I think) and I never noticed the backgroun hiss, but then again, I never played iton my better steroe. I think I shall dig it out and try it on the good system and see if my copy has background hiss.
I think it might have been something like an SAE 5000A Impulse Noise Reduction System.
Thank you, as always another well done review. Do hope you are able to some day review a 3BX or 4BX.
oh my I was really hoping for this one
I was playing around with Audacity and under effects noticed there was an effect marked 'click removal'. Just for fun I tried recording a song off of a 45 record using that effect and was really surprised at how well it removed the clicks and pops. There is also an effect for 'noise reduction' that I didn't try. I think Audacity is still free so if you have the chance, give it a try.
it is still free, it’s a great software
🎅🏻😇 I really admire how you are preparing your videos! And I'm learning how to make mine a bit better! Vinyl, vinyl, vinyl... that was beautiful time! It's also great that so many people like returning to those days! 🎅🏻😇
Burwen and KLH (TNE700A) made Transient Noise Eliminator systems that worked very well but they cost in the $500 CDN range in the 1970/80's. The best one I ever used was a software based system made by CEDAR. The CEDAR did work miracles with crackling and clicks and pops on records. I still have and use the KLH which I've replaced most of the capacitors in over the years. Same idea as the unit your demonstrated but the bypass switch was an A/B switch between the turntable level input and a tape monitor function. You monitored at line level through your amplifier.
😎 Hey, I'm back. I know, ya didn't even notice I was gone😂 I wander off once in awhile and let you make a bunch of videos. Then on really bad days when my illnesses make it so I can't leave my bed for long periods of time. I listen to your videos, I find them to be very Calming, Relaxing and interesting to Watch. Thank you for being there for me, without you even realizing it. 🤣👍
As a professional audio engineer, pops and clicks are hard enough to deal with in post-production with proper full track analysis and an empty section of track to compare to create the baseline for the Pop/click filter. Doing it on the fly has never really been that feasible. Typically in live audio we just end up using a compressor, sometimes with a narrow band eq to try to contain them
So far as the noise reduction goes, It sounds like it's a fancy low bypass filter. Effective, but it will affect unintended low end sounds as well.
There's no such thing as magic!
@@johnevans647 How original.
@@johnevans647 The obvious is that have-nots always envy the haves. Don't worry... maybe one day you'll buy your own magical bullshit turntable... ;)
Is there anyone trying machine learning (AI) based solutions to this. On image processing, machine learning is used intensively. Nvidia DLSS and Intel XESS are some examples. Upscaling from lower resolution up to 4K in real time for gaming purposes.
@@bltzcstrnx There are some modern post production editors that can use AI. Can't do much about live. The problem though is that it always has a risk to affect intelligibility and music integrity. Real music isn't perfect tones, and the human ear can be VERY sensitive to adjustments in post.
I do remember the Amstrad noise reduction system which was capacitor across the inputs ... I think they spent more on the switch !!
Thanks for this interesting video. I too had gotten a Marantz SX-72 scratch noise suppression system, and I can confirm, it does next to nothing. Only in the quiet sections of a speech-only recording I could get it to make at least some audible difference. No surprise this is the only such device Marantz ever made. This Pro-Ject system works much much better. I agree it is not perfect, but there certainly is an audible difference on anything you throw at it. To me it seems like the "intensity" setting in some samples actually made the de-clicker less effective.
I love how you got the real audio piped in to the youtube video. Like i'm really there.
Back in the 80s. I tried all kinds of tech like this to remove cracks, pops etc. You could but in doing so you'd empty the record of any real quality or clarity.
Fun times. Cheers Matt.
Seems like a moot point in the age of CDs and lossless audio formats. I'm surprised this product is getting made at all nowadays; I guess audiophiles will buy anything...
@@caramelldansen2204 Based on my experience with the SugarCube. . . For what I paid, I definitely could have bought a ton of CDs instead, and I wouldn't blame anyone who does that. On the other hand, I've already got my LP collection, and I have LPs that don't exist on CD. And, the SugarCube doesn't make LPs sound like CDs. It just makes them sound like LPs without clicks and pops.
The way I reduce the potential of crackles and pops on records is I get CDs... 🤣
@Pixie Pete you don't apparently understand what a joke is... 😐
I’ve heard one of the SweetVinyl products at an audio show. It worked incredibly well. I was very impressed.
Love your content. I was surprised you didn't digitally recorded a music sample after your phone preamp and then fed that very same sample to the denoiser in different configurations to compare the result. Just like you said, it has a line in and it is agnostic in respect to the fact that the music is really coming from a record player.
Oooh the audiophiles are gonna get mad 😆
Audiofools... 😁
They already are.
Imagine getting a content match for the silent record.
John Cage 4 minutes and 33 seconds?
I highly recommend the KLH Burwen Research TNE 7000A for this noise reduction application. My father acquired one of these units in the early 80s. I learned to use it properly when I was around 10 yrs old, on my noisy Beatles records from the 60s. I inherited it when he passed. It utilizes fully manual control of the analog NR using two knobs, for threshold and sensitivity. There are two indicator LEDs for high frequency calibration and Transient Noise Elimination. The trick is adjusting it for maximum NR vs. adding distortion. You have to just trust your ears. Every record is different, so this is not a set-and-forget type of box. It seems to do it's best work when you set the knobs to zero at the header of the disc- where there is no program, increase the sensitivity knob to the point that the calibration LED partially dims, and once the program starts, increase the threshold knob until it sounds bad (distortion)- then back it off a bit. This usually produces fantastic results, with an absolute minimum coloration of any kind to the program. It does not deal with reducing rumble at all, though. But, that can usually be taken care of by a rumble filter. These 2 rack-space units can still be had for cheap. I recommended to a friend- thinking yeah, good luck finding one these days... He purchased one from eBay the same day. They also come up on Reverb and other resale sites. I think he paid $70 USD. He's also thrilled with it! The best part besides it doing exactly the thing it's supposed to do, is seeing the TNE LED light up like crazy- and hearing NO crackles, pops or fizzes... Knowing it works
Oh nice, I've got the same Goldring cartridge on my Fluance turntable! It's great. 🎶👂
Next week's review: the Pro-Ject "Vinyl NIS" Box ("Vinyl noise-Injection-system").
A device which injects vinyl-like crackles, pops and noise, so you can make your modern CDs and MP3 sound like a vinyl record. Enjoy the good old vinyl sound without having to own actual vinyls... 😅
That exists as a free audio plugin. Search for Izotope Vinyl.
Most 'pops' are caused by static building up on the vinyl. Some anti-static devices for turntables are meant to work quite well, but as ever in this life, results tend to match price.
I bought the Milty anti stat gun for over 100 bucks and it doesn't work nearly as easily or effectively as my RonXS plasma lighter for 12 bucks on Amazon. Sometimes there are outliers to every rule, but in general I agree with you.
Perhaps on a modern plastic crapbox, but I highly doubt that on a grounded metal turntable with a grounded metal tone arm.
Looool, no
Pops and clicks are not caused by static. They are caused by the dust attracted to the record surface by the static charge. Short of a clean room it is impossible to completely eliminate surface smutz.
@@avsystem3142 Years back, in the direct to disc age, some labs, not wanting to lose any HF information, did not "Deburr" their freshly manufactured stampers. One or two plays of the new LP was sufficient to achieve optimally low surface noise. Then there's the whole discussion about LP cleaning methods. So...Yes there are many well-cared for LPs over 50 yrs old that play back a dead-quiet background.
Had an SAE 5000 Impulse Noise Reduction System. Worked very well. A clever feature was a button for reversing the effect. Hit the button and only the clicks and pops are sent to your amplifier. you use this to fine tune the controls. Keep increasing the NR dial until you start to hear music, turn it back and hit the button. You get the most reduction with the least effect on your music that way.
Another great review, Matt, thanks a lot for all the work you put into your videos!
Re the 'silent record demo': Maybe it would have been a good idea to record a 1-to-2-minute passage without any processing, loop that initial recording in software (as 'equal playing field' for the different intensity stages), feed the entire track back into the NRS, and re-record the end result for the comparison of the differernt processing settings.
BTW, what I'd REALLY like to have, is a software that does not try to 'fix' scratches automatically, but only assists me in finding them and lets me correct them manually (and separately per channel).
Back in the days when I played a lot of vinyl records I found that if there was a pop or crack, it was usually a grain of some sort which was stuck in the groove and wouldn't come out by brushing. But using a magnifying glass and a needle it wasn't hard to remove if you were careful, and normally this would completely get rid of the noise.
By the way, how many grooves on average are there on a normal long playing record?
Answer: Two! One on each side. (Just a little joke you can sometimes catch people out with).
Thanks! I'm going to use that in my next office quiz! 👍
Good joke!
You have emphasise normal. Monty Python's Matching Tie and Handkerchief, for example, has 3. A friend of mine don't know this as his automatic turntable always managed to pick the same groove on side B.
Interesting device, maybe they could de-scrach by listening for repetitive clicking at 1/33 or 1/45 times a second and then preemptively turning down the sound for that particular scratch. They could even introduce quite a processing delay to really go to town on noise control.
Could almost just use digital at that point.
I was just thinking that. For 200 GBP, I would expect it. I'm not a DSP expert, but even if this is a niche, low-volume product, it cannot be just about the nice metal box...or can it? I'm not talking about covering the DSP chip in gold, that would obviously ensure higher quality audio processing...
Maybe for sections with sound, it's understandable that they don't want to mess with the audio, but the crackling was present even for the quiet part at the lead-in of the vinyl. I absolutely expected that to disappear, not just diminish.
@@jhoughjr1 Amazing, somone should tell Pro-ject to put a DSP in this box. Wait.
@@Constantinus213421 No, it definitely tries to do some digital processing, not just bandpass filtering. It's just that it's a cheap device made in Slovakia and I suspect they don't have the best people available to work on the algorithms to do it better.
I was thinking the same ... But scratch came to an angle, they are not at perfect 90 degree in relation to the cartridge .... still you can play with it .... but wondering if this can hurt too much the final ouput. Being digital you have the advantage of buffering data. This will add a delay from the point you drop the arm and when the sound comes out which is not desirable. But if ateas you have a couple of revolutions ... you can do more tricks ... (I guess). Always in the scope of scratches which can lead to a pattern. The crap/pop thing is another story.
Many many years ago I built a passive de-noise box, I think it did just as well as this one you have tested. Listen to CD's now so no longer any need.
Didn't really do a lot but your great review take care stay safe ❤️
run output through a good old 16/32 band equalizer and tune out accordingly. Done.
Yep!!
I was able to remove nearly all the noise in real time with a program called Stereo Tool by Thimeo. It's really made for radio broadcasting, but it's brilliant for fixing all sorts of issues with recordings. It's incredibly powerful. The interface is a bit daunting at first, but if you just stick with the basics, you can still do a lot with it. It can even run on a Raspberry Pi, so you can have it in a little standalone box with a touchscreen next to your Hi-fi system.
I was able to do the same by buying a CD 🤣
StereoTool, famous FM audio processor for radio stations. It even fixes the distortion from loud CD mastering. The same thing is included on Omnia.9
@@stepheng8779 there is a ton of music that was only ever released on vinyl. Granted, the better way to go about restoration is probably just record it as-is into your PC and restore the whole recording with something like iZotope RX.
Thanks for the idea! I already use a raspberry pi in my system to play the digital side. This might make listening to my father's old records easier using hardware I already have. I will check it out!
I have CDs that were mixed improperly which Stereo Tool is able to make sound better, such as ones affected by the 'loudness war'. And I constantly use Stereo Tool while I'm on RUclips and Twitch so I can correct people's issues with their audio levels and even if their microphones are clipping. It's not only for vinyl by any means.
"I happen to have a silent record" .... of course you do 😊 Very interesting as always thanks for your work.
Back in the late 70s and early 80s, a company named SAE made a pop and click filter. Really worked well.
I am always amazed at what people will do to try and improve the sound quality of an imperfect recording medium like the vinyl record. There are some systems (quite high end ones as well) that digitise your records for playback, presumably to reduce surface wear, and they offer some optional noise reduction. I remember seeing one at a hifi show in 2019 and it cost several thousands (it too used the digital standard of 96khz 24 bit). One other thing - all the way through this video I wondered what would happen if you put the output of a tape deck into this device - would you hear any difference at all ?
I'm kind of skeptical of audio formats sounding better than 44.1khz at 16 bits per sample. But after seeing your comment i started googling and found claims that sound engineers find it's better to work with 24 bits and a higher sample rate because editing and filtering has more precision and more data to work with, even if it's ultimately downsampled and converted to 16 bits for the listener at the final stages...
@@andrewsveikauskas it's nice in editing as any errors from filtering or effects will be lost in the higher bits when down converting to 16bit. But I haven't seen many people at all that can even tell which is which when given a 48khz source one at 16bit and one at 24bit. Some can notice a difference, but couldn't tell you which is which. Those who could are in the tiny minority and it takes high end studio equipment to notice, the average consumer with $4k total in audio equipment isn't going to notice.
@@andrewsveikauskas 24 bits gives you more dynamic range, it's pretty useful to have some headroom in the studio to more easily make use of the entire 16 bits in the final CD track. In most cases it's probably not necessary for playback, but especially classical music can potentially benefit from it.
@@ozzyp97 I've written some audio code in my career and I completely understand that the extra bits could give you better results for some kind of algorithm, analogous to less rounding error. But my first point is if your ear can hear the difference between any given audio and something that's been down sampled down converted. I think the answer to that latter question is no, 44.1 and 16 bits per sample is probably sufficient for your ear
@@andrewsveikauskas I don't disagree for the most part, but unlike with separate tracks in a studio, you can't easily manipulate the dynamic range of a full orchestral piece to fit in a CD format. While still not especially noticeable to most people, it's at least clear how there might be an audible difference, unlike 44.1 vs 48 kHz.