Thanks man! We've installed a lot of Siemens panels, and it was a nightmare going back over and over and eventually we switched to SQD which helped a lot, but not after loosing thousands of dollars in labor. This is solid advice and I might try this solution next time.
I feel your pain! I'm a small time contractor and I do a lot of acreage homes so it kills my day driving 30-60 minutes out of the city to fix siemens tripping issues. Update after update from siemens doesn't fix the issue so I switched to Schneider homeline.. people are just moving into my Schneider homes so we'll see if they have the same issues.
I remember when I was a second year. The problem that happened is largely that most electricians tied all the neutrals feeding a switch box together even if they were from different breakers. So now if you AFCI the circuit, it nuisance trips because the neutrals don't carry the expected return value for the AFCI to be happy because some of the angry pixies go down the wrong pixie pipes. Not doing that, I only exceptionally rarely ever have nuisance tripping.
We're typically putting afci Breakers on new construction and we're definitely not tying all the neutrals together, so in my case that isn't the issue with the nuisance tripping.
So where do u tie the AFCI neutrals if not on main panel ground bus? I'm in WA and considering AF Breakers or outlets or DUALs. I'm grandfathered not to require AF but had an Arc incident and like the concept but hassles not so much. Thanks
inside the panel the neutrals from the breaker do go onto the neutral bar. But inside the receptacle boxes we are not tying neutrals from different circuits together.. although it rarely happens that we would even have 2 separate circuits inside a receptacle box. Multiple circuits in 1 box usually happens in switch boxes.
I also have used a remote Arc Fault device to solve the nuisance tripping however I would love to understand how to test Arc Faults and to know why we get these nuisance trips. I had one new pre built house where my job was to only install the service equipment and had a trip when one switch was used, I replaced the wire inside the wall to the light and still had the trip. I chased the entire circuit for a week and it finally just stopped tripping. I did find the home builder used fluorescent bulbs in the attic light and I did replace them when the trip stopped. But how am I sure this was the problem? The house initially powered up fine but within a week the tripping started when on the customer tried to use the dinning room light but the fluorescent bulbs were in the attic. What was the relationship or what could have caused the arc fault trip? Naturally I could not charge the customer for the time spent as I was not convinced I had fixed the issue but a year later and no tripping. Crazy IMO
we had this happen on a few of our new builds in ontario with square d. new house, multiple new afci breakers. they have been good lately but it sure was an annoying call back even once to replace something on a new house that shoudn't be causing an issue. made us as the electrical contractor look like we did something wrong. also we have used the faceless hubbell afci's with good results on some reno jobs.
Hey there. This seems to be the problem I'm having (Eaton panel, Eaton breakers), but it's effectively all my AFCI's. Most common issues are on my Microwave and Washer, but also my main floor receptacles and outdoor receptacles as well. I noticed after watching this video I have one of the AFCI blank face devices for my hot water tank that was installed with the house build (House is 4 year old). Do you recommend I get 2, 3 or 4 more of these installed for the other AFCI's I'm having an issue with? Thanks and hope you have a great holidays!
Hey thanks for watching. It may be a bad batch of Breakers that were installed originally, but I've had that same issue where everything in the house was tripping. And it seems microwaves and washers are very common culprits too. It's very expensive to change all your Breakers or even use the afci device, so I'd probably try it on the biggest trouble maker circuits first to make sure there are no further issues. Some say that stabbing the wires into the back of the receptacle instead of using the screws may cause tripping, so it wouldn't be a bad idea to open up a few random receptacles and see if the installer used the screws or not. Let me know what you find, I'm also curious.
Canadian electrical code requires the use of armoured cable from the panel to the first arc fault device or arc fault receptacle in a circuit. If you have an arc fault breaker in the panel then the armoured cable is not required.
@@energyoneelectric certain code requirements make more sense than others. Does it seem reasonable to you to require MC cable between the panel and the first AFCI device?
I have an issue in a "rewired/remodeled" home where running the microwave trips the AFCI for the room where the son's gaming computer system is. The microwave is connected to a sub panel next to the main panel. The two circuits are run a couple feet apart. I "beeped" the circuits with a breaker finder and both circuit beep end to end, but not on any other circuit/wires. I Meggered both circuits and both are 100% open to each other. F'ing weird!!! Any suggestions? I'm feeling like there is a great deal of harmonics added to the circuits from the microwave and that trips the AFCI.
Are you 100% sure the 2 circuits are completely separate, since you're saying it's a rewired house? Mistakes can be made. What if you try to replace the arc fault breaker on the gaming computer circuit with a regular non-arc fault breaker and see if the microwave still trips it. Gotta start somewhere and keep working from there.
@@energyoneelectric Thank you for the reply. Your posts on RUclips are so helpful to many folks. The Gaming room is connected to a breaker in the main panel and the microwave/kitchen outlet breaker is in a sub-panel next to the main panel. I found the "feed" to both circuits is on the same phase/pole. The day after I made the post above I did swap out the office AFCI for a standard breaker (like you suggest above) and the issue stopped. However, to stay within code, I may try changing the phase of one of the circuits and keep both on AFCI breakers. I am going to have to look up the code for kitchen circuits. The GFCI outlet may be enough for that circuit or GFCI may not be needed at all there.
I have a CH panel. Tried a UPS and it kept tripping the AFCI. After moving it, now it still trips. Going to get a new one, but they are $65 bucks each! 😬
I switched to Schneider homeline. A few people have lived in the new homes for a few months now and I haven't been called back about nuisance tripping so I'm hoping this keeps up. 👍
Schneider homeline basically eliminated our issues. Been 6 months with no callbacks. Seimans was obnoxious. And leviton dead fronts still have some issues with microwaves......sometimes
So basically, the Leviton is less prone to false tripping than the Siemens. One word of caution. If you add this some distance from the breaker panel, the wire between the panel and the Leviton will not be protected.
According to code, that wire from the panel to the first arc fault device doesn't need to be arc fault protected. But it must be protected by conduit or bx.
I see your nm cable is exposed. Are you in a garage? I didnt think exposed romex was allowed but in a few locations were its not exposed to Physical damage
I'm an electrician in ontario.I can tell you from personal experience,siemens arcfaults,absolute garbage and headache.I can't believe that they are being allowed to be used,it's absurd in my opinion.
@pawelelektryk2985 actually I like working inside the panel more, but I've only powered up 1 house so far, so we'll see if there are any complaints once customers move in. Homeline brand BTW.
Not sure if Canadian code is different but to avoid having to install an Arc Fault breaker, use single outlet receptacles for dedicated appliances. Furnaces, Washers, Dryers, Refrigerators, and like appliances should always be on dedicated circuits.
Canadian code requires arc fault protection on every 120v receptacle 15 and 20amps, excluding Sump pumps, fridges in a kitchen, and kitchen counter plugs in a dwelling including attached garages. Keep in mind it's only for receptacles not hardwired devices. The bathroom gfci receptacle can be on a lighting circuit which isn't required to be arc fault protected. So we must arc fault protect even dedicated appliances such as microwaves, dishwashers that plug in, range hoods that plug in, hot water tanks that plug in, hrv systems, built in vac, etc.
@@energyoneelectric I would be hard wiring a lot of appliances that we normally plug in such as dish washers, garbage disposers (we have those), range hoods, HV systems, etc. if I had to deal with that. The washing machine I just disposed of would trip any arc fault.
@@energyoneelectric Easiest way to know is if the installation manuals allow for hard wiring. Most such appliances do, though some may require a disconnect switch at the junction. That may be as simple as a single pole switch for 120volt appliances.
So is this just a way to bypass the electrical code on using arc fault breakers and using that device as a substitute? Does the device work better than the arc fault breaker?
This is definitely 1 way to comply with the code but not use an arc fault breaker. The circuit is still arc fault protected and you bypass the overly sensitive siemens breaker.
Interesting and makes sense. My sons new condo has these Siemens breakers, all circuits have AFCI/GFCI combos.The microwave and washer work ok , but his espresso maker is an issue. I am unable to do exactly what was done here because of where his panel is (without cutting out wall). I tried installing a GFCI receptacle where the coffee maker plugs in and it ended the tripping so far. I seems the coffeemaker destabilizes the current flow when it switches from one mode to another (grinder to brew, brew to froth, etc. , never consistent when). My theory is the GFCI receptacle may counteract that. I also thought the GFCI would confirm if there was , indeed, a fault inside the appliance ( very new). I also see some threads that a surge protector may do the same. What is the “standard” breaker product number that would fit his Siemens panel ( looks exactly like yours with plug on neutral)?
Replace standard AFCI breakers with duel function AFCI/GFCI breakers. They won't trip anymore. That's the recommendation from Seimens and I've done it every time I have a problem
I agree it works sometimes, but other times it didn't fix the issue for long. And siemens is recommending you replace a crappy $70 breaker with a less crappy $120 breaker. How about they fix the actual problem instead. I quit siemens panels and not looking back.
It doesn't nuisance trip because it must have been engineered properly, and works like it was designed to. And I did put the Wallplates on after the video.
Yes you can use an arc fault receptacle. The feed to the arc fault receptacle will need to be protected (bx or conduit). That extra receptacle, however, may put you over your limit of 12 on the circuit.
The best way to fix them is to replace them with a $7 standard breaker :) When they first came out I experienced a LOT of issues. They may have improved over the years like GFCI's did but still, I'm not a fan.
EXACTLY.. now you know why you never hire an electrician. hire a handyman....it really is that simple. electricians are restricted by what they can do and in almost all cases will refuse to actually solve a problem and will mindlessly just follow "the rules". replace the damned things with classic thermal breakers. they work...arc fault do not work...too many false positives to be useful. coming home with no cooling and heating...turning on a convection oven and realize 30 minutes later your food was not cooked. ridiculous
You mean they are on the same circuit? According to current code a fridge in your kitchen must be on its own circuit or shared with other fridges in the kitchen. Vacuums are known to trip arc fault circuits because of the motor. Try setting up one of these arc fault devices, hope it helps.
@@energyoneelectric sorry my fridge is on its own circuit and the breaker for it is that new arc fault breaker. It randomly trips but resets very easy. Now if i use a vacuum anywhere in the house it will trip another arc fault breaker related to that outlet i will try this device and tyvm
@@flea8332 I don't know where you live, but in Canada they don't require arc fault for a kitchen fridge so maybe you can replace it with a regular breaker.
Хобби
Thanks man! We've installed a lot of Siemens panels, and it was a nightmare going back over and over and eventually we switched to SQD which helped a lot, but not after loosing thousands of dollars in labor. This is solid advice and I might try this solution next time.
I feel your pain! I'm a small time contractor and I do a lot of acreage homes so it kills my day driving 30-60 minutes out of the city to fix siemens tripping issues. Update after update from siemens doesn't fix the issue so I switched to Schneider homeline.. people are just moving into my Schneider homes so we'll see if they have the same issues.
I remember when I was a second year. The problem that happened is largely that most electricians tied all the neutrals feeding a switch box together even if they were from different breakers. So now if you AFCI the circuit, it nuisance trips because the neutrals don't carry the expected return value for the AFCI to be happy because some of the angry pixies go down the wrong pixie pipes.
Not doing that, I only exceptionally rarely ever have nuisance tripping.
We're typically putting afci Breakers on new construction and we're definitely not tying all the neutrals together, so in my case that isn't the issue with the nuisance tripping.
So where do u tie the AFCI neutrals if not on main panel ground bus? I'm in WA and considering AF Breakers or outlets or DUALs. I'm grandfathered not to require AF but had an Arc incident and like the concept but hassles not so much. Thanks
inside the panel the neutrals from the breaker do go onto the neutral bar. But inside the receptacle boxes we are not tying neutrals from different circuits together.. although it rarely happens that we would even have 2 separate circuits inside a receptacle box. Multiple circuits in 1 box usually happens in switch boxes.
@@energyoneelectriccorrect
I also have used a remote Arc Fault device to solve the nuisance tripping however I would love to understand how to test Arc Faults and to know why we get these nuisance trips. I had one new pre built house where my job was to only install the service equipment and had a trip when one switch was used, I replaced the wire inside the wall to the light and still had the trip. I chased the entire circuit for a week and it finally just stopped tripping. I did find the home builder used fluorescent bulbs in the attic light and I did replace them when the trip stopped. But how am I sure this was the problem? The house initially powered up fine but within a week the tripping started when on the customer tried to use the dinning room light but the fluorescent bulbs were in the attic. What was the relationship or what could have caused the arc fault trip? Naturally I could not charge the customer for the time spent as I was not convinced I had fixed the issue but a year later and no tripping. Crazy IMO
we had this happen on a few of our new builds in ontario with square d. new house, multiple new afci breakers. they have been good lately but it sure was an annoying call back even once to replace something on a new house that shoudn't be causing an issue. made us as the electrical contractor look like we did something wrong. also we have used the faceless hubbell afci's with good results on some reno jobs.
I agree, it makes you the contractor look like you're incompetent.
Thanks for sharing. Can you also share the model number of the Leviton device?
Hey there. This seems to be the problem I'm having (Eaton panel, Eaton breakers), but it's effectively all my AFCI's. Most common issues are on my Microwave and Washer, but also my main floor receptacles and outdoor receptacles as well. I noticed after watching this video I have one of the AFCI blank face devices for my hot water tank that was installed with the house build (House is 4 year old). Do you recommend I get 2, 3 or 4 more of these installed for the other AFCI's I'm having an issue with? Thanks and hope you have a great holidays!
Hey thanks for watching. It may be a bad batch of Breakers that were installed originally, but I've had that same issue where everything in the house was tripping. And it seems microwaves and washers are very common culprits too. It's very expensive to change all your Breakers or even use the afci device, so I'd probably try it on the biggest trouble maker circuits first to make sure there are no further issues. Some say that stabbing the wires into the back of the receptacle instead of using the screws may cause tripping, so it wouldn't be a bad idea to open up a few random receptacles and see if the installer used the screws or not. Let me know what you find, I'm also curious.
I'm having issues on the eatom breakers as well.
After final all of them are coming out and I'm reinstalling standard breakers
Thx for the excellent video. Wonder why you use MC cable out of the panel to the AFCI device? Asking for a friend
Canadian electrical code requires the use of armoured cable from the panel to the first arc fault device or arc fault receptacle in a circuit. If you have an arc fault breaker in the panel then the armoured cable is not required.
@@energyoneelectric excellent reason! interesting thx
@@energyoneelectric certain code requirements make more sense than others. Does it seem reasonable to you to require MC cable between the panel and the first AFCI device?
So does the US National Electrical Code - armored cable or conduit.@@energyoneelectric
Nice trick man! Thank you for sharing it!
You're welcome. Thanks for watching, and subscribe please.
I have an issue in a "rewired/remodeled" home where running the microwave trips the AFCI for the room where the son's gaming computer system is. The microwave is connected to a sub panel next to the main panel. The two circuits are run a couple feet apart. I "beeped" the circuits with a breaker finder and both circuit beep end to end, but not on any other circuit/wires. I Meggered both circuits and both are 100% open to each other. F'ing weird!!! Any suggestions? I'm feeling like there is a great deal of harmonics added to the circuits from the microwave and that trips the AFCI.
Are you 100% sure the 2 circuits are completely separate, since you're saying it's a rewired house? Mistakes can be made. What if you try to replace the arc fault breaker on the gaming computer circuit with a regular non-arc fault breaker and see if the microwave still trips it. Gotta start somewhere and keep working from there.
@@energyoneelectric Thank you for the reply. Your posts on RUclips are so helpful to many folks. The Gaming room is connected to a breaker in the main panel and the microwave/kitchen outlet breaker is in a sub-panel next to the main panel. I found the "feed" to both circuits is on the same phase/pole. The day after I made the post above I did swap out the office AFCI for a standard breaker (like you suggest above) and the issue stopped. However, to stay within code, I may try changing the phase of one of the circuits and keep both on AFCI breakers. I am going to have to look up the code for kitchen circuits. The GFCI outlet may be enough for that circuit or GFCI may not be needed at all there.
I have a CH panel. Tried a UPS and it kept tripping the AFCI. After moving it, now it still trips. Going to get a new one, but they are $65 bucks each! 😬
Any updates on if the new brand is working better? what brand did you switch to?
I switched to Schneider homeline. A few people have lived in the new homes for a few months now and I haven't been called back about nuisance tripping so I'm hoping this keeps up. 👍
Schneider homeline basically eliminated our issues. Been 6 months with no callbacks. Seimans was obnoxious. And leviton dead fronts still have some issues with microwaves......sometimes
So basically, the Leviton is less prone to false tripping than the Siemens. One word of caution. If you add this some distance from the breaker panel, the wire between the panel and the Leviton will not be protected.
According to code, that wire from the panel to the first arc fault device doesn't need to be arc fault protected. But it must be protected by conduit or bx.
I see your nm cable is exposed. Are you in a garage? I didnt think exposed romex was allowed but in a few locations were its not exposed to Physical damage
It is allowed to be exposed in a mechanical room when it's going into a panel, but also if it's above 1.5m from grade.
Aside from the Rare faulty new-out-of-the-box unit, I have ZERO problems with Eaton. Siemens AF breakers are Hot Garbage!
I haven't had problems with Eaton either. I recently switched to Schneider Homeline and haven't had any problems as of yet.
I'm an electrician in ontario.I can tell you from personal experience,siemens arcfaults,absolute garbage and headache.I can't believe that they are being allowed to be used,it's absurd in my opinion.
I have been patient through about 5 updates and gave up. I switched to another brand of panels and Breakers.
@@energyoneelectric and how is that working out for you?
@pawelelektryk2985 actually I like working inside the panel more, but I've only powered up 1 house so far, so we'll see if there are any complaints once customers move in. Homeline brand BTW.
100% accurate statement. They are garbage!!!
I have the same issue with Square D. For now, I've had to swap out two circuits with regular breakers, but I'd like a better solution.
Link in the description would be good. Other than that i appreciate the knowledge.
You got it! Link is now in the description. Thanks for watching.
Not sure if Canadian code is different but to avoid having to install an Arc Fault breaker, use single outlet receptacles for dedicated appliances. Furnaces, Washers, Dryers, Refrigerators, and like appliances should always be on dedicated circuits.
Canadian code requires arc fault protection on every 120v receptacle 15 and 20amps, excluding Sump pumps, fridges in a kitchen, and kitchen counter plugs in a dwelling including attached garages. Keep in mind it's only for receptacles not hardwired devices. The bathroom gfci receptacle can be on a lighting circuit which isn't required to be arc fault protected. So we must arc fault protect even dedicated appliances such as microwaves, dishwashers that plug in, range hoods that plug in, hot water tanks that plug in, hrv systems, built in vac, etc.
@@energyoneelectric I would be hard wiring a lot of appliances that we normally plug in such as dish washers, garbage disposers (we have those), range hoods, HV systems, etc. if I had to deal with that. The washing machine I just disposed of would trip any arc fault.
@@drwhoeric hardwiring is an option, but I'm concerned if it will void the customer's warranty if I cut off the plug end.
@@energyoneelectric Easiest way to know is if the installation manuals allow for hard wiring. Most such appliances do, though some may require a disconnect switch at the junction. That may be as simple as a single pole switch for 120volt appliances.
So is this just a way to bypass the electrical code on using arc fault breakers and using that device as a substitute? Does the device work better than the arc fault breaker?
This is definitely 1 way to comply with the code but not use an arc fault breaker. The circuit is still arc fault protected and you bypass the overly sensitive siemens breaker.
Interesting and makes sense. My sons new condo has these Siemens breakers, all circuits have AFCI/GFCI combos.The microwave and washer work ok , but his espresso maker is an issue. I am unable to do exactly what was done here because of where his panel is (without cutting out wall). I tried installing a GFCI receptacle where the coffee maker plugs in and it ended the tripping so far. I seems the coffeemaker destabilizes the current flow when it switches from one mode to another (grinder to brew, brew to froth, etc. , never consistent when). My theory is the GFCI receptacle may counteract that. I also thought the GFCI would confirm if there was , indeed, a fault inside the appliance ( very new). I also see some threads that a surge protector may do the same. What is the “standard” breaker product number that would fit his Siemens panel ( looks exactly like yours with plug on neutral)?
Anything other than a siemens arc fault breaker works better than a siemens arc fault breaker!
@@pawelelektryk2985 agreed
Complied!...@@energyoneelectric
thanks
You're welcome!
Replace standard AFCI breakers with duel function AFCI/GFCI breakers. They won't trip anymore. That's the recommendation from Seimens and I've done it every time I have a problem
I agree it works sometimes, but other times it didn't fix the issue for long. And siemens is recommending you replace a crappy $70 breaker with a less crappy $120 breaker. How about they fix the actual problem instead. I quit siemens panels and not looking back.
Doesn’t always work. Seimens arc’s are garbage. Coming from a diehard Seimens installer
Never had issues with Siemens.
Strange. I've had so many issues that I gave up and switched to another brand. So far so good!
Question; Why does that devise not nuisance trip and how does it pass inspection with no device cover
It doesn't nuisance trip because it must have been engineered properly, and works like it was designed to. And I did put the Wallplates on after the video.
@@energyoneelectric Thanks for the reply love the videos 👍
Can’t you just use an arc fault plug? I’ve had to use them before bc the panel needed a bunch of tandems with no room for a arc fault breaker
Yes you can use an arc fault receptacle. The feed to the arc fault receptacle will need to be protected (bx or conduit). That extra receptacle, however, may put you over your limit of 12 on the circuit.
Whats the code for that? I didn’t know the arc fault plugs needed to be fed from bx or conduit
@@RKMxMedia from the breaker to your first arc fault receptacle must be protected.. canadian code rule 26-658 2b.
The best way to fix them is to replace them with a $7 standard breaker :)
When they first came out I experienced a LOT of issues. They may have improved over the years like GFCI's did but still, I'm not a fan.
Simply replacing with a standard breaker would be against code out here.
@@energyoneelectric Yes, of course. Here too. But it certainly fixes the issue.;)
EXACTLY..
now you know why you never hire an electrician. hire a handyman....it really is that simple. electricians are restricted by what they can do and in almost all cases will refuse to actually solve a problem and will mindlessly just follow "the rules".
replace the damned things with classic thermal breakers. they work...arc fault do not work...too many false positives to be useful. coming home with no cooling and heating...turning on a convection oven and realize 30 minutes later your food was not cooked.
ridiculous
I have plenty of seamen, but they're harmless cause I had a Vasectomy yrs ago.😂😂😂
No! Get Siemens to fix their breakers?! What a waste.... If Leviton works, the Siemens should not have a problem either?!
I wish. Schneider is soo much better
my issue is with a fridge and when a vacuum is used
You mean they are on the same circuit? According to current code a fridge in your kitchen must be on its own circuit or shared with other fridges in the kitchen. Vacuums are known to trip arc fault circuits because of the motor. Try setting up one of these arc fault devices, hope it helps.
@@energyoneelectric sorry my fridge is on its own circuit and the breaker for it is that new arc fault breaker. It randomly trips but resets very easy. Now if i use a vacuum anywhere in the house it will trip another arc fault breaker related to that outlet i will try this device and tyvm
@@flea8332 I don't know where you live, but in Canada they don't require arc fault for a kitchen fridge so maybe you can replace it with a regular breaker.
@@energyoneelectricI live in United States. thanks very much ill look into that .
Expensive if home is already occupied
How to fix leaky boat? Move to land.
This is not good news considering my supplier recently switched from Eaton to Siemens.
Sometimes things like this happen, forcing you to find another, better, supplier.