Can I Raise the Flaps IN the FLARE? | OR Will I Crash My Cessna 172?
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- Опубликовано: 23 июн 2023
- What will happen if I raise the flaps in my Cessna 172 during the Flare? Will I crash OR is this a good landing technique that you should consider using? Find out in this video from Free Pilot Training!
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My CFI taught me this for soft short field landings way back when... It works really well with my current aircraft C-FMVU a 172B with manual flaps.
Nice!
Hello Josh, another “tactical pilot training” video. Loved it. You mentioned doing it previously with the Cherokee, that had to be a bit firmer landing. My recollection of the Cherokee vs Skyhawk is the Cherokee is coming down now when you chop the throttle; Skyhawk not so much, it loves to hang in ground effect. Another tactic to save the day. Great video and great discussion on the shift in CG!
Thanks! Oddly enough, it wasn’t super firm, but it probably wasn’t my smoothest landing. I have my own theory on ground effect. Maybe I’ll discuss that in a future video.
Hey man can we please get a video on How to pre flight Cessna 172
the reduction in stall speed (some aircraft only gain 1kt of reduced stall speed), and increase in lift, is minimal beyond 20deg of flaps. after 20deg, most aircraft are just adding drag.
You can reduce flaps, but be careful and be mindful of the pitch change of the nose due to the change in angle of incidence.
I've done it with both manual and electric flaps, but I find I prefer doing it with manual, as I can feel the change in my hand, and can make the change, or undo the change, very fast if needed.
Nice trick you are bringing here. 2 private pilots posted a video doing that about 5 years ago in a 2k feet runway. I used to do this trick flying Cherokees and Aztecs in South America in the 1970's.
I kept the speed a bit higher on short approach just in case, leveling it at about 2 feet over runway then raised flaps slow if heavy, or fast if light.
Low wing and high wing react differently when you raise flaps at normal Vref you get after leveling off at 2 feet.
Thanks! I’ve never seen it. I’ll have to find that.
For short fields hell yes raise the flaps at touchdown and get the weight on the gear
Definitely
I flew a Cessna 206 with Robertson STOL kit and a Cherokee Six for 10 years. The technique of raising the flaps in the flare was commonly used by me. It helps a lot. Particularly when the aircraft is light. When heavy usually wait until touchdown. It even saved me from going into trees once during an engine failure. But, you should know your aircraft well to do this.
That’s cool. I’m blown away at how common it actually is. I had never heard of it before that.
Great teaching, as a former Bush-pilot with M.A.F. In Tanzania, we were taught this and stayed proficient in it. 👌🏽
We used it also a lot with PFL’s it worked very well and can save ur day! (Esp. with the C208)
Nice! I love hearing from experts that actually use these techniques
Pulling flaps Helps you pick your spot and helps prevent ballooning.
Yes it does
I glad you all lived and no airplanes were injured in the making of this video. I enjoy learning from what you present and if you didn’t make it we wouldn’t have the video… Plus it would be reckless to go out and try something that you didn’t think would work or would likely result in a crash.
😆 thank you!
@@FreePilotTraining you’re welcome! And Thank you!
Really enjoy learning from your videos!
Thank you!
Enjoy your videos. Great work. These are a lot of work 17:00 to set up and produce.
Re: what “moves” when flaps are lowered, I like to refer to the CP (of lift) movement relative to the “fixed” CG. For a given fuel /gross weight I can’t move the CG, it’s a given position. Of course it moves as fuel weight decreases. The new position of the relocated CP relative to the CG causes the nose down force. Anyway, good job with this discussion of flaps and a useful “hack” to safely kill a float. Ty.
Hey Josh, maybe you can author this new technique for the C-130!
Lol, Pancho said he’s going to try it in the sim. This might actually shorten the landing distance if we went from flaps 100 to flaps 50. Might be worth testing next time your in the CT box. 😆
Nice Jason
There are many nuanced concepts here... I get why CFIs teach standard procedures in initial flight training. That said, LOVE the content here. Gets people thinking about actually flying the wing...
Thank you! That’s the goal!
Enjoy your videos. Great work. These are a lot of work to set up and produce.
Re: what “moves” when flaps are lowered, I like to refer to the CP (of lift) movement relative to the “fixed” CG. For a given fuel /gross weight I can’t move the CG, it’s a given position. Of course it moves as fuel weight decreases. The new position of the relocated CP relative to the CG causes the nose down force. Anyway, good job with this discussion of flaps and a useful “hack” to safely kill a float. Ty.
Thank you, will try this technic my next flight.
Yeah, let me know how it works out
It would have been cool to see you test his theory by coming in a little faster into ground effect and have a lot of float then pull the flaps out
I wish I would’ve thought about that
@@FreePilotTraining I’m sure you will be flying and recording again soon :P
This^^^^
I always 'flicked' the electric flaps up as I flared the PA30 that I flew once I was committed to land. It would raise the nose slightly and result in a very smooth landing.
Nice! That’s super cool
Love your vids
Thanks!
I used to fly a Pik20b Glider - no air brakes, just huge flaps. The first time I flared out it flew a KM across the airfield on ground effect frightening me witless in the process - I quickly learned to wind in the flaps to stick it down!!
That sounds fun
What a great video, amazing how quickly you can get the wheels to touch down, definitely want to try this in my Cherokee 140 with the manual flaps!
Yeah, it was very surprising. Let me know how it goes
@@FreePilotTraining Will do!!
This was pretty awesome to watch honestly
Thanks Chris!
I have to try this!
You should! It’s fun
Great channel. Commenting for the algorithm!!
Thank you! I appreciate that!
Another benefit is breaking authority increases without flaps
Absolutely!
It be fun to try this new n a long body Mooney
Yeah, that’d be fun
awesome, my instructor didnt teach me how to evaluate the remaining distance of the runway in the air, so i retracted the flaps during flare, he didnt wanted i landed because we missed lots of runway, so i retried the landing and it was the normal one without flap retraction for flare.
Thanks! He actually taught you to do that? That’s pretty surprising
@@FreePilotTraining no, he got scary. He said "Never, NEver retract the flaps in the air", i mistakely retracted the flaps in the air, we floated too much, i thought the plane would land, the wheels were too close. My other instructor also dont like lowering the flaps while in turns, but most boeing type pilots make runway alignment that way .
I did this in a 172 on my private pilot checkride for a very short field landing. The examiner looked over and said who taught you that and laughed.
Lol, please tell me you told him I did. 😆
@@FreePilotTraining it was back in 2009 and my flight instructor taught me that short field technique as well as power off landings. I love your video
@@tylerblackbourn6557 that’s pretty cool!
on Friday I did CFI training work...on short field landings he told me when the wheels touch have throttle idle then if not before, drop flaps, pull yoke all the way back and brake for real not 'sim brakes'...not only did we touch wheels within the 100 ft past the top of the numbers I am pretty sure we stopped there too or just past it on the last try
That’s pretty impressive. 600 feet is about the limit on a Cessna 172
Down in the Sailplane world some people will actually hold a flair attitude on short final and use the spoilers to control the rate of descent and the touchdown point. Honestly it's done best with mechanical control surfaces rather than the electrical flaps on most C172 models where the PIC has finer control on the spoilers. This is usually done with top deploying (or schempp hirth) spoilers as they are the ones that "kill the lift".t
That’s smart. I could see using spoilers for that
ohhh Contriversy ohhh love it always like these videos and Free Pilot Training is not just flapping his gums lol
😂 lol thank you
Another really nice video! Thanks for demonstrating it on the C172. By the way, Sparky Imeson has a "Mountain Flying Bible Revised" from 2005 -- wonder if you've checked it out?
Thank you! I actually just noticed it when I was looking for this book on Amazon
Great channel! I wonder if it would be useful to redeploy the flaps after min unstick speed to help slow down the plane a little more in the instance of a no go around option, I can't guess how low the speed must be though, because I'm guessing the lift created by the flaps, even full might lighten the load on landing gear/ compromise braking. Would be interesting to see if the drag is useful or negligible.
Thanks! Yeah, Id be interested to see what unstick speed is in a Cessna. I’ve never considered that.
With low winged plane with higher aspect ratio. The ground effect can be bit annoying and float almost endless. I used to juggle to either fly on the edge of stall with stall horn sounding here and there off all the way down. Or just raising the flaps the moment main wheels touched. Flaps method seemed bit safer.
Yeah, it seems like it would be safer
My aim point in Skyhawks is alway like 500 feet before the desired touchdown point and that works perfectly, even in the Cherokee it’s like 400 feet. Always seems weird to me how close your aim point is to the touchdown spot. (I know for this in particular video, it’s because of the flap raising, I’m only talking about normal full flap landings.)
Yeah. My aimpoint is usually about 200-300 feet in front of my touchdown point. For this, it’s about 100. Do you land with a touch of power? I wipe the power early as soon as I know I’m going to make the runway
😂 how many takes did it take you to get the uncle Josh scene? That was some funny stuff. Thank you for another excellent video. Adding more tools to the flying toolbox is always a plus. Keep up the excellent work. Safe skies my friend 🇺🇸🛩️
About 4. Did you see the outtake at the very end? My family couldn’t stop laughing
@@FreePilotTrainingI did, that's why I asked. Lol. Had me rolling too. I needed a good laugh this morning.
I’m gonna try this next time my grade 3 instructor overhandles the controls on a circuit lesson.
😂
Might try slowing down more on final, to reduce the float. Most people tend to land 172s with too much airspeed. When I had an AOA indicator installed in mine several years ago, I really noticed how much slower my airspeed was when I relied more on the AOA indicator than the airspeed indicator, especially when running light. Always remember that the book stall speed is based on running at gross weight, but subtract 20 gallons of fuel and that 3rd or 4th passenger, and suddenly the airplane is a few hundred pounds lighter. So the stall speed is correspondingly lower, which means the approach speed (1.3 Vso) can be much lower, too.
Very true. Thanks for the comment
having hard time wrapping my head around this....any time I lower flaps the nose pitches up, not down. Actually the second I lower flaps I have to push yoke forward to counteract nose pitch up movement 🧩🤔
Yup. I always wonder how much of my reaction is muscle memory...
The nose goes up momentarily because of the ballooning effect. But, you’ll notice that you are in a nose-low attitude after the balloon as the plane stabilizes.
Sounds like you’re in a low wing aircraft.
Initially, you MAY get a slight balloon from the increased lift if you are flying faster, and then the nose will drop. That’s why you don’t always feel a difference when you drop the first notch of flaps
Exactly
🛫📖🛬
Great video Josh.
It pays big dividends to explore the limits and potentials of your aircraft and your ability, proper planning notwithstanding.
what's the shortest distance you can stop your C-130 in ❓❓❓
That’s a fact! The shortest distance I’ve achieved is about 1800 feet or so. She’ll stop on a dime with those massive brakes!
They should have rocket assist reversers a too 😊
I'm a total noob so of course I won't be trying this anytime soon, but wow great info! BTW Josh, are you on active duty or in the guard? I was USAF enlisted 87-91.
Thanks! I’m currently in the AF reserves, but I’ve been active duty and guard. I’ve gotten a little taste of everything lol
HAPPY JULY 04 2023 WEEKEND !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks! Happy 4th to you too!
My instructor would slap on my right hand if it goes anywhere near to the flaps during flare. But couldn’t deny Mr. Sparky’s technique in bush flying.
Yeah, probably so!
Josh, love your channel but can you elaborate some more? Not sure where you’re coming from on this. Flaps move the CP but NOT the CG. And I suspect if your nose comes down after lowering flaps it’s because you are unconsciously pushing it down to prevent excessive loss of speed. But that aside I’m sure this technique works as long as you’re low enough. Certainly beats the hell out of forcing the plane down.
The wing balances on the center of pressure. It is basically the fulcrum on which the plane balances. By lowering the flaps, the Center of lift moves back. The center of gravity doesn’t actually move, but it’s relationship with the center of lift does, so it’s basically the same as the CG moving forward because the center of gravity is farther forward of the fulcrum.
Gotcha, thanks
@@davethibeault2484 No problem
What about when you have to raise flaps to practice engine fails on final. Do you teach Engine Quit on final with full flaps? Good to practice engine fails on every leg of traffic pattern. Seen many CFI's that can only teach on downwind leg.. Afraid of the other 4 legs.
I teach that you should keep the flaps that you have to NEW students.
@@FreePilotTraining You can raise all flaps on final to reach the runway. You will accelerate due full flaps at idle are DRAG FLAPS And you have the nose down too.
Done that also if crosswind landing. Normal flaps until final, then clean the wing for a crosswind landing. Try those 2 tricks. Im retired Bush Pilot CFI and airline pilot retired too.
Any chance you have a light weight AC such as a Jabiru you could demonstrate this with? Would be interesting to see what difference a low inertia AC makes.
I don’t. Maybe I should at some point
@FreePilotTraining it would be interesting to see a video on your take on these lights weight planes.
We actually did the reverse in a Cherokee during my training. Popping the manual flaps up lifts you off the ground when done correctly. Try that some time.. it was fun
I’ve actually done that to lengthen my glide a little bit when trying to make spot landings. It works great
Ive always wondered about this but assumed it would be a horrible idea because:
A. what if you stall
B. What if u need to go around
C. What if you sink too fast & bounce/porpoise
Are there ways to mitigate those risks are or are they non-issues? I feel like a cfi would punch me in the side of the head if i tried this lol
Yes, if you are slow AT ALL, you could stall while raising the flaps. I was very careful about my airspeed
That's my point exactly. When you raise the flaps at this stage, the aircraft drops quicker because you have initiated a stall. I hear these bush pilots speaking highly about this maneuver but I can't really speak from experience. I've never tried it and I probably never will. Just my view.
I've always been surprised this technique is not way more common
I am too now that I’ve used it
I mean, to be fair, flaps DO increase your angle of attack given that you keep the same pitch attitude. And during landings, isn't it assumed that you're already at the pitch attitude you want before you bring the flaps down? Therefore, you'd be bringing your flaps down while also keeping a constant pitch attitude and therefore, that would increase your angle of attack.
If you’ve ever lowered flaps with a manual flap handle, I think you will agree that the flaps actually control your pitch angle. This is one of the reasons why we feel the need to trim the airplane so much. When you drop them, you can actually feel the change you’re making in the pitch attitude of the aircraft
@@FreePilotTraining oh I agree with that statement yes. I just mean, if you pull back and keep that attitude the same manually, you are now at a higher angle of attack no?
It's so much better to edit the videos when you survive at the end lol
😆 exactly!
Years ago I had an instructor try to tell me not to raise flaps in a glide (at like 2000agl and at best glide speed with a runway in easy glide distance.) as if there was some chance for it make us to drop out of the sky, and then he argued that we somehow follow different rules of aerodynamics than a purpose built glider....(which I've heard in passing from others in GA)
ANyway the PHAK and AFH have so many problems it makes me want to scream. It's not so much that they're wrong on individual points or sentences, it's more a matter of phrasing organization and misplaced emphasis that leads to misinterpretations and oversights by students, instructors, and even some DPEs and FSDO reps.
The more I learn, the more I actually realize how carefully worded those handbooks are. I tend to agree with a lot of what is said now that I have begun to do a lot more research. Not to say that there are not errors, but oddly enough, they’re fairly accurate
cant overshoot turn to final for a parallel runway tho
Very true
Slip
2:34 You're on left downwind but your banking to the right?
I’m turning right to enter left downwind at a 45 degree angle
@@FreePilotTraining Oh, ok. I thought you were making your crosswind to downwind call.
Let’s try this on the C130 and I’ll guarantee you you will have some Face Time with your CO/CFO and it won’t be to tell you he’s sending you to Miramar.
Lol. We’re talking about trying it in the C-130 simulator.
I’m always learning something in aviation.
My BFR is due next month, if you’re interested I would like to hook up with you.
I own and fly a C172 based out of KLXT
I should be down in the Little Rock area at the end of end month. If it works out, I’d be happy to
@@FreePilotTraining I’m out of Lees Summit Airport just south east of Kansas City Missouri
@@budowens6478 ok, if I’m in that area, I’ll try to stop by
Retired CFI here. What scares me about this is if you get into the habit of raising the flaps in the flare, you'll develop muscle memory for it. Then one day you'll transition into a retract and you'll raise the gear by accident instead of the flaps. That will be a very bad day for you.
Yes. I don’t recommend this in the place of a normal landing
if you are so stupid to mistake handles, you are a crash dummy. I used to do this on Aztecs with flaps and gear levers 3 inches from each other. for over 600 hours i flew them.
agreed. doable, but this is definitely an advanced technique only for discerning pilots who are masters of landings and proficient that specific aircraft.
I totally disagree with muscle memory. This is what gets pilots into trouble. Just like flying a twin you identify and verify. If you can’t take a second or two to verify which handle, switch, knob, or lever, that you are grabbing before you move it, then you are setting yourself up for trouble. There was a commercial airline that, I can’t remember the flight, but they inadvertently pulled the engine back instead of the flaps. Unless you fly the same plane every day, I would never commit to allowing myself to muscle memory. That is as bad as trying to remain visual in IMC.
@@aviatortrucker6285 identify and verify is also muscle memory,, Duhhh. And yes, i taught on 4 kinds of twins as an MEI.
I like the video and really appreciate that you recommend less experienced pilots not try this technique. One thing that confuses me though: In the 172S, when you add the first notch of flaps, the nose pitches up a bunch. As well, on a short/soft field takeoff, when you raise the flaps, the nose really pitches down. On the face of it, that seems to contradict what you're describing here. Is there something I've missed? (BTW, the X-Plane 172SR is a great model for the 172S and you can test out this behavior there).
Thanks! Great question. Typically, when you lower the first notch, your at a higher airspeed and because of that the wings initially create more lift. The CG change isn’t super obvious until you lower the rest of the flaps at a slower airspeed
@@FreePilotTraining I think I have a reasonable theory as to why the nose raises so sharply with 10 degrees, as well as (but less so) with 20 and 30. I think the flaps are providing extra downwash on the horizontal tail, which is an upside-down increase in angle-of-attack for it. If the nose-up effect is none-existent on low wing planes (I haven't flown one in a while), then that would help support my theory. BTW, I tested it out yesterday on a C-182T and you see the same effect, but not as strong as the C-172S. Likely due to the much heavier engine, with only a moderately larger horizontal tail.
This video confused me. My flight time is logged to the extent of a 30minute experience flight. So obviously I don’t know what I’m talking about. Saying that I’ve watched a few people talking about planes. Now I was under the impressing that raising the flaps in the flare was “the way” to land a tail dragger so that the brakes can be applied sooner and more firmly while impeding the tail tendency to rise. And they are all high wing planes. So why would it be wrong in your plane just because your plane has nose gear?
Well, I’d say it complicates the landing process and it kills all you lift in case you need to go around for some reason. Other than that, it seems pretty desirable to me
Again, excellent explanation; thanks for sharing. Perhaps you can cover the flap settings at takeoff; how it changes with short field and than also combined with high density altitude takeoffs and why.
I’d definitely like to do that! Thanks for the idea!
@@FreePilotTraining Looking forward to it! Example of reducing lift during landing for me was during my ATP-ride in the CE-500, when the examiner gave me a NO-flaps landing and half a mile final out that it also became a short field landing. Screaming in with no flaps and a short runway ahead of me, I could only do one thing. I deployed the speed-brakes, reduced to Vref early, aimed for the threshold, lowered to 3 red over one white and retracted the speed-brakes just before making a deliberate hard landing. She turned towards me and said: "smart cookie" and I passed then and there. Keep up the good stuff.
Pretty cool but not for me.
Yeah. It’s definitely not for everyone
I have videos doing this in 1995 but i have to cut that part from a 40 minute video.. SO HERE IS CUTTING FLAPS ON FLARE ON C172 FROM A 2017 VIDEO TO A SHORT FIELD 1,800 FEET LONG ONLY
ruclips.net/video/tX5bvJzXzT0/видео.html&pp=ygU3bGFuZGluZyAxNzIgb24gYSAxLDgwMCBmZWV0IHJ1bndheSBmbHkgaW4gbWFzc2FjaHVzZXR0cw%3D%3D
Just watched it. Pretty good video
I'm probably going to step on your toes here. Pardon me for speaking so boldly, but I don't see what was accomplished with this maneuver, especially when you were pretty much on the ground. I'm not aware of this maneuver being on the books and any CFI that I have ever spoken with warns against this maneuver. It really doesn't serve any purpose. All you're doing is creating an unstable approach, having less control authority over where, when, and how your aircraft touches down. There's enough going on during the final approach without inserting this maneuver into the equation. I would just stick with basic PPL training. If there was anything to be gained by this maneuver, you would be required to demonstrate it in your FAA PPL checkride.
Funny Hanger Tale
I will never forget the first time my CFI told me to go around(2009). With a certain level of uncertainty, I asked him, "go around?" He then repeated with a more definite tone, yes, go around.
I immediately pushed the throttle forward and started to pull back on the yoke, and then I started to clean up my flaps. I didn't wait long enough to gain a pos rate of climb, and we started to drop. I instinctively knew from all the time I spent on my home flight training device to push the yoke forward enough in order to gain airspeed and then start to pull back to avoid a crash.
We were only about 200 feet above the runway, best guess. Everything happened so fast. As we started to recover, he asked me if I was okay? Me being a little shaken replied, "Yeah,I'm fine." Before he even said a word, I knew right away what I had done wrong.
He then told me, "You NEVER clean up your flaps until you get your AirSpeed back up!. He said I started to slap your hand."
It was a lesson that I will never forget.
Raising your flaps will always raise your stall speed. Lowering your flaps will always lower your stall speed!
I don’t mind this conversation because there is some validity to what you’re saying, BUT one thing to consider is that videos like this give you a better understanding about your equipment and it is disguised as an entertaining video. It’s fun to have these conversations AND we get smarter. Should you use this every day? No, but what if you’re landing with a dead engine and you’re running out of real estate? Here’s a tool that COULD be an option. Love your story by the way. Bet you’ll never forget that lol
Why do “I” need to do that? Ohhh yes.. because “I” was too fast… so.. you are trying to fix something that you did wrong using your last resource, just putting the plane on the ground asap. 🙄🙄🙄
No recommended only for students?
I heard that there is no chance for go around… so.. this is a last resource tool….
Yes, but it’s nice to have it in your hip pocket.
@@FreePilotTraining yes, as a last resource. This should not be part of a regular landing. Some ppl have mentioned that they want to practice this and a lot of things can go wrong.
Some HUGE caveats here that are presented WAY too late in the video. If your committed to a landing a LOT of rules change that are inappropriate when you're not committed. I believe this video causes way more harm than good and should be removed.
Well, as you stated, I addressed the things that should be addressed. I’m sorry, but I’m not removing it. I think it’s a technique that could come in handy in some situations.
Enjoy your videos. Great work. These are a lot of work 17:00 to set up and produce.
Re: what “moves” when flaps are lowered, I like to refer to the CP (of lift) movement relative to the “fixed” CG. For a given fuel /gross weight I can’t move the CG, it’s a given position. Of course it moves as fuel weight decreases. The new position of the relocated CP relative to the CG causes the nose down force. Anyway, good job with this discussion of flaps and a useful “hack” to safely kill a float. Ty.
Enjoy your videos. Great work. These are a lot of work to set up and produce.
Re: what “moves” when flaps are lowered, I like to refer to the CP (of lift) movement relative to the “fixed” CG. For a given fuel /gross weight I can’t move the CG, it’s a given position. Of course it moves as fuel weight decreases. The new position of the relocated CP relative to the CG causes the nose down force. Anyway, good job with this discussion of flaps and a useful “hack” to safely kill a float. Ty.
Thank you so much! I appreciate the comment