My private pilot instructor was a retired Airforce colonel with a civilian ATP rating. He taught me to use flaps 10 degrees at the end of the runway on downwind, additional 10 degrees on the turn to base, and an additional 10 on the turn to final, over the years I have never experienced a single negative event from using flaps and I never approached a stall in turns.
I have 18,000+ hours and am currently a captain on a 737, we use flaps in turns all the time. It’s an amazing tool for energy, speed and path management.
Just want to say thank you for all the videos that you are making for us the general public. I work as an apprentice A&P and I’m a student pilot . Quick back story , I’ve been trying to do this since I was 15 years old when I started flying. Life and the fact that Flying is so dang expensive ! I’m now 49 years old on tue verge of getting my PPL and Airframe and Power plant Certifications. 🎉 I say this to say if it where not for you , your time and I just wanted to say thank you for all the time and your effort . I would not be doing this with ought you and others that do this for the GA world. You Lady’s & Gents are un sung heroes of GA . Thank you 🙏🏻 Michael John . KLZU.
You are funny! I'm a student pilot and I lower the flaps in a turn to either base or final almost every single time. But I have to admit that a small voice sometimes asks "should I be doing this now?" Glad you cleared it up for me and gave me more confidence,thx!
I was taught to turn then base then use flaps 20° to bleed off some speed and altitude. Turn Final then flaps 30° to bleed off more speed and altitude.
We always use flaps in the pattern in the Cherokee 140. First notch downwind abeam the numbers, second notch on base, third notch on final. Same approach every time. Love the videos brother, keep ‘em coming!
1 / Sin (45°) = 1.41, 1 / Sin (30°) = 2.0. As an electrician, we use these every time we bend an offset in conduit, was cool to see it pop up in flight training too 🤓
@@michaeljohn8905 tons. Search for “conduit bending” and you’ll find lots. Also might look up the same for pipe fitters. The math will be the same for what you’re doing, you just need to find the video that explains it best for you. Good luck!
I've watched every one of your videos. I only fly in msfs but I have gotten much better from watching them. This might be my favorite video so far. I love your idea about creating a video with Rod. The second flying related book I ever bought was probably his 1980ish manual. First was Stick and Rudder which I am actually rereading now. I fly mostly the Beaver in the sim and I've seen multiple videos saying to use flaps in a turn with them. Now I understand why. Thanks for expending the time and energy to make these videos!
I want to start the ms2020 flight sim but I want to fly the Cirrus Vision is it offered Thanks havent purchased the software yet where should I get it from ? Thanks
@@emergencylowmaneuvering7350 I don’t think you know what a canyon turn is. The canyon turn is done at full throttle, there’s nothing low power about it. I was taught: 1) maneuver to the far right or left side of the canyon, you will be in an upslope position on the mountain close to the ground, 2) cut throttle, 3) nose up to trade airspeed for altitude, 4) once in the white arc drop full flap and roll it over to 60 degrees of bank in the downslope direction towards the center of the canyon, 5) nose down to maintain 65 knots trading altitude for airspeed, 6) roll out of the turn, recover and clean up the airplane. The technique results in a very tight turn, I’ve executed a 180 degree turn in a C172 loaded within 90% of max gross weight in a 370m radius using this technique. The turn requires loss of altitude to manage the airspeed. Edited to add radius from my ForeFlight track log.
@@emergencylowmaneuvering7350 slower you go and higher angle of bank would result in the tightest turn. Full flaps would ensure you can fly slow as possible to preform the turn with the smallest radius and not stall
@@kurtisf3366 LOL. They say im an expert on 3 kinds of Turnbacks and Turnarounds. It is bullshit to cut the power, raise nose when on a canyon. Between mountains you tend to pull up more than over flat area due the ground on windshield optical effect. You will do an accelerated stall before flaps added. Tell that Bullshiter to demo that on a real canyon at 10,000 feet density altitude from a Vx climb as usual. He is bullshiting you. DEMAND THAT VIDEO from a real vx climb.
@@Warhawk666 How many power off steep turn accelerated stalls have you done ? I used to teach them on Cherokees, Grummans and Tomahawks and Cessnas. YOU are advocating accelerated stalls on Box Canyon Turnbacks.
Love your sense of humor, it actually helps me learn MUCH MUCH better the way in which you present things and make it fun as well. Keep it going man you’re awesome 😎
Thank you so much! I really appreciate the comment! I got one the other day telling me how immature I am. I’ll continue with the humor, cuz I think it really helps retain information. I think that guy was just a sour puss
@@FreePilotTraining hey forget those haters, if you’re so immature..why are they watching then..most of us who watch are here to continue expanding our knowledge with you and what you offer; the others meh forget them. Cheers from Chicago
Great video! Going to cite part 23 next time I have this conversation. However, a month ago at the flight school I currently work at there was a flap roller that failed and the flaps got wedged into the ailerons and locked them into position. The aircraft was in a bank at the time so they got locked into a bank and had to declare an emergency and fly another lap in the pattern with rudder and elevator trim. Highly unlikely situation, but that is also a hazard. I will still use flaps in turns for all my patterns.
That is an excellent point. If the flaps get wedged into the ailerons, your basically screwed if you can’t get those loose. The best option is to try and move them back where they were immediately
This was awesome. I remember my instructor telling me not to use flaps in a turn but was never told why. Great video. I love how informative you are while also backing up your claims.
Just finished up my CPL and even during that training, I was getting a "Don't use flaps during the turn" from a couple of instructors, with no real explanation of why they thought it was bad. During my training, they also said that the wings don't care which way the plane is turned or turning. the airflow over the wing is the same, so if' its the same, then the plane doesn't care if you put flaps down in straight and level, or in a turn.. This was an awesome video! Thanks for taking the time to explain.
@Matty Crayon: If they were right we could never do an orbit on approach....as requested by ATC - raising flaps here, especially after base leg, would be bad, unwise and uneccesary.
Good job! We use and adjust flap settings all of the time in the military (fighters & transports) and in the airlines while turning. BTW- transports are designed under the stricter guidelines of FAA part 25. That's probably why all of the transports I've flown (Boeing & Lockheed) have a system to stop flap movement once an asymmetry is detected. Happy landings!
Without split, (assymetric) flap protection as in most light aircraft designs, flaps should not be deployed in a turn. Take for example, a Cessna which has cable operated flaps. There are 4 separate flap cables to pull the flaps up and down. Two cables pull the flaps down and two cables pull the flaps up. If one cable breaks due to corrosion which is possible, the flap operated by that cable will not be pulled down, say to a 40 position in an older Cessna. The opposite side flap will be pulled down to its 40 position. Trying to keep the aircraft flyable during final approach to the runway with ailerons and rudder will be very difficult, probably impossible depending on airspeed.
Excellent video on flap usage. Flaps and maintaining DMMS until final will work every time. "Maintain thy airspeed lest the Earth rise up and smite thee." Disasters don't just happen. They're [triggered by] a chain of critical events.
Thank you so much for sharing this video! I had an instructor teach me not to lower flaps in a turn when I started and my CFIIs have all consistently emphasized doing it on circling approaches. I kept asking them, very confused, and none of them knew what I was talking about. I can’t express enough how much I appreciate this!
You’re welcome! That’s exactly right, flaps are important on circling approaches. In fact, flaps can change the category of some aircraft when circling because the circling minimums are based on turn radius
I think your instructor was correct, but not for the reasons you think. Always be wings level when selecting flaps. So for instance progressively select flaps on base leg. The very act of selecting flaps will cause some pitch variations, which may catch you out if you are fully concentrating on your bank angle, in an ever changing horizon.
@@hiscifi2986 I hear the logic behind this, but I still question it. In a turn to base, you’re pitching down. You should be paying attention to everything. Are you saying when you fly a circling approach you don’t add flaps in the turn to short final?
In the UK we don't do the circling approach, we keep the circuits rectangular. Also using no more than 15 deg angle of bank in the climbing turns, with all flaps selection on base leg. This makes for a stabilised final from the 600ft turn onto final. We also universally adopt the 'Bumffpitch' memo on the 1000ft downwind leg.
30 years of flying and instructing and 5,000 landings later….I never even heard of any concern at all for applying flaps in a turn until I saw this video.
I learned that in early 1990's. If overshooting alignment on GRM or base to final, you pop more flaps while banking up to 45 degree, then after level, bring them up if getting to slow or low. Crop Dusters do that every day on their GRM Alignments.
Keep in mind, too, that those load factors and stall speeds at various bank angles only apply in level flight. Not in a descending turn which is what we’re usually doing in the pattern. 👍
they apply in a climb or descent exactly as in level flight as long as your climb or descent rate is constant. for example, if you're descending wings level at a constant 500 ft/min it's still 1 G. the vertical speed of the aircraft is irrelevant if you're not accelerating vertically (thus changing the load factor - which is what really drives the change in stall speed)
@@BillPalmer I'm afraid technically this is incorrect. Load factor is lift divided by weight, at a no-turn climb or descent the load factor equals the cosine of the climb/descent angle (which means that for small angles it is extremely close to 1, making the difference unnoticeable and irrelevant). I will be happy to explain further if of interest.
@@talreichert Ok, ya got me it's not 1 G it's 0.9986 G on a typical 3° descent angle (e.g., ILS glideslope) However the G force in the cockpit if the scale was level with the ground would be 1.0. Just like it is in an elevator going up or down at a constant speed. It's interesting to note that the difference in g force of just being on the equator vs the pole is a bigger difference than that 3° climb or descent (0.65% vs 0.14%) Cheers. 🙂
@@BillPalmer Well, I did say it's extremely close to 1... The issue I was commenting about was the categorical statement that any time an airplane is not accelerating it means the load factor is 1. Naturally, should you choose a steeper angle, you'll get a more noticeable change (e.g. high-speed glide or a climb at Vx). Lastly, I agree that if you put an object on a scale in the cockpit, any non-accelerated situation results in it weighing its full weight (m*g), just not as a result of the lift.
What a great instructor! Thank you so much for all you dedication and help with this great channel. I am learning a lot from your videos in my pursue of my LAPL here in the UK. I just discovered your videos and I count myself very lucky!! Thanks mate. I wish you all the best and God bless you!
Flaps are an integral part of patern work. You start to add flaps on the down wind before even making your cross wind turn. Not to mention short, and\or soft field takeoffs... I really appreciate the videos and the way you explain things. The humor added in helps keep it fun and engaging. You remind me alot of Rod Machado with the style. Keep up the great work! And E=MC² to you too buddy!😂😂
Very good explanation of an "old wives tale" about flaps in a turn. I have flown heavy jets to small aircraft and honestly never heard anyone tell me not to use flaps in a turn. I fly a Bonanza now and we just had an AD required in the last two years due to the right aileron cable having corrosion on a turn buckle due to moisture from a heater duct. There were at least two inflight problems and several hundred discoveries on the ground. With the rudder aileron interconnect, when one of the turnbuckles broke inflight the pilot, using all of his experience and brains, determined that if he maintained 130 knots indicated AND making only a continuous left hand turn, was able to advise ATC, find a LONG runway and approached it in a turn and got it safely on the ground. The right aileron was deflected up and he had to use almost full left aileron to maintain control. There is an interview with him on RUclips somewhere. Very scary and well handled. There have been others that failed upon inspection but thankfully on the ground. Mine had the beginnings of corrosion when I checked it. The Bonanza wing is such a great flying wing I tend to not use flaps on long runways but not due to concerns of split flaps but just do it that way...why? Had a student in his Bonanza that his flaps stuck down full and I had to tell him how to "repair" them so he could get home. Your demo of turn radius makes a lot of sense. Thanks
I think the main reason why CFIs teach you not to use flaps is that for student pilots, landings are hard enough to do as it is and they don't need the extra workload. It's easier to handle one thing at a time, turning OR changing the flap settings. It's easy to get overwhelmed and miss a crucial change in attitude or speed. Imagine a student making a turn to final. Assuming that their descend was stabilized so far, their main focus is probably on making the centerline. Maybe they'll also be able to keep an eye on the speed. However, if they change the flap setting during the turn, the workload increases. The plane will want to slow down and lower the descend rate, both of which need to be countered. In my view, changing the flap setting during a turn is not inherently dangerous, but it does increase the workload, which is not ideal, especially for students. Once you're more comfortable handling the plane and predicting what it is going to do, I don't see any issues using the flaps while turning, though.
I do believe this to be the case, but I don’t see the difference in doing that and increasing the flaps in the descent which can initially cause the plane to balloon and make them more unstable on final
@@FreePilotTraining of course man, you helped me get through PPL. I’m on Instrument training now. But every new student at my school I meet, I send them here.
The "level flight" part is a pretty big part of what you said about the chart that shows the relationship between bank angle and increase in stall speed. If you're not pulling back in the turn, you're not increasing load factor, and therefore stall speed does not increase in the turn.
I’m a student pilot and have been nervous about dropping flaps in a turn for fear of upsetting the attitude of the AC. After watching this video you clarified a lot of things that make sense and have taken that worry away. Thanks!
Always increase your airspeed you can always loose that increased speed on final The book is suggested increase it by 20% see how much better it feels.
If flaps increase lift, how do they make the nose pitch down? I’m also a student pilot soloing in a champ right now which doesn’t have flaps but in msfs (I know it’s just a simulator) when I lower the flaps when landing, the nose pitches up at each notch of flaps only right when I extend them, after pushing the yoke forward to keep my glide pitch, it levels back out
Great video and explanation! Another option to always consider, if things are going wrong (I.e. overshoot, too much Bank, not stable,etc.), is to go around. NO reason to push a bad situation.
Student pilot's are taught to not SET flaps during a turn for CRM. They have enough to keep them busy just working the pattern, power. airspeed and don't need to add putting their eyes in the cockpit to find and use flaps during critical low manufacturing. They are just never taught its ok to do as they get more experience. They should be taught to set prior to the turn to maintain the FAA stable approach. You're exactly spot on, flaps for pattern turns are a great tool.
Thanks for the comment. I’m sure you mean SRM? CRM probably doesn’t apply to most student pilots. I like my students to practice task management skills in the cockpit while I’m there. That helps them develop those multitasking skills in the cockpit
@Free Pilot Training not familiar with SRM? We use CRM for Cockpit Resource Mangement with students in the midwest. At least that's what it was 3 years ago for my CFI. Wouldn't surprise me it changed with so many other FAA changes recently. keep up the great videos
Thank you. Excellent video and great technical research and analysis. I’ve been instructed both do and don’t over the years. I usually do apply flaps in turns and find that compared to level flight, they are virtually unnoticeable to passengers because the sensations related to any changes in pitch and speed are both mitigated by banking. I also seem to fly a smoother, more accurate and stable pattern applying flaps when they are needed instead of waiting for an arbitrary level off period between turns; especially when flying relatively tight, “power off” patterns. Thanks again!
Thanks! I really appreciate that! I never thought of that before, but using them in the turn could alleviate that ballooning feeling from lowering them in level flight
When you are turning for final you are also descending, so you aren't in level flight which is a requirement for determining that the load factor at 45 degrees is 1.414G. So, since you are descending, won't the load factor actually be less than 1.414G, thereby contributing less to the increase in stall speed? I.E., maintaining a descent while banking at 45 degrees in a base to final turn adds a little bit more to the "safety factor" that you mention. Do I understand that correctly?
Thanks for the great video. Appreciate your hard work! Here is my equation... C130 driver + military training + FAA certs + Rod M. homework = YT video that is legit & worth twice the price! 😎😂
I just found your channel and I like it a lot how you approach that topic. What a friend of mine showed me also when to lower my flaps to use it as a even better tool. This applies to a C-172: Abeam the numbers in the downwind leg, flaps 10 and trim to 80 kts IAS and power setting to have a stable flight. In the apex of the turn to base leg, lower to 20. Without any input, power adjustments or trim the C-172 will slow down to 75 kts IAS after the turn still perfectly trimmed out. Same then for base to final. Just next notch of flaps of 30 degrees. After the final turn, you will be at 60kts. Way less work to keep your attitude, airspeed and descent rate. Very helpful in our crowded pattern and super short 1340 ft (408 m) runway where every landing has to be on spot.
Regarding tightening the turn with flaps - something got a little off. The turn radius is purely a function of the horizontal lift component (from the bank angle) and your true airspeed. Sorry for an equation: r=v^2/a. If your bank angle was truly the same, you were making exactly the same lift as in the no-flap case - AoA was lowered to compensate for the flaps. How do we know this? Consider that your vertical lift component was also identical given that you were not climbing or descending during the turn. The two ways to tighten a turn is to slow down or increase bank angle. Here is a related video - load factor with airspeed. ruclips.net/video/7OKpGiHaEio/видео.html
@@FreePilotTraining flaps increase lift if all other factors remain the same. If you maintained the same bank and increase lift, you would tighten the turn AND start climbing. That is, both the horizontal and vertical components would have increased. Since you remained at the same altitude you know the vertical component did not increase and thus you can deduce that the horizontal component also remained the same.
@@FreePilotTraining Just compared screenshots of the brief period the bank was visible in the video. The flapped bank angle was noticeably steeper. If both are representative of the entire turn, that would explain the different turn radii.
@@N91CZ I agree 100%, N91CZ. Turn radius is purely a function of groundspeed and bank angle. Now it IS true that flaps let you tighten the turn radius because you can then safely fly at a lower airspeed (so, a lower groundspeed) - or a steeper bank angle - if you do so! But if you really do maintain the same bank angle and the same airspeed (again, technically groundspeed), your turn radius cannot change. There is another misconception in this thread - that is that wing loading is less in a descending turn. It is at the _start_ of the descent - that is, when the airplane is accelerating down - but that lasts only so long. Once the descent is established, the wing loading returns to what it would be (for that bank angle) in level flight. BTW, I lower flaps in the turn, as needed, and that's what I teach.
When I was a young man (long time ago) I spent a lot of hours in the right seat of a Beaver in the Canadian north. We routinely found ourselves dropping into tiny lakes on steep approach. Couldn't do it without flaps deployed during the entire circuit. You are bang on!
I was taught not to lower flaps during a turn but lower them before rolling into that turn because of the slight chance one side hangs up as the instructor says. Very informative video thanks for posting.
I have ALWAYS used flaps in a turn (Cessna 152/172 pilot with 125hrs). I was actually taught to get to flaps 20 before my final turn. Flaps 10 almost always occurs in my base turn (as I was taught). This was to prevent rushing flap deployment during base or final... which I'd argue... rushing is MORE dangerous. This video is jam packed with amazing info. Love it! Thanks mate!
A very good explanation and perfectly correct. Having ridden with Ag pilot's in NZ, (when you were allowed to do so, not now.) they would always be adding flaps during their turns particularly when still heavily loaded. And if anyone can get the best out of an aircraft safely it would be an Ag pilot. I've learned more from them than an instructor and I apply a lot of what I have learned from Ag pilot's to my own piloting although I refrain from flying at the low altitudes required for Ag work.
You bring up a lot of good points, and a couple of very important things I didn't know/hadn't thought about. However, the most important thing, IMHO, that you left out is to stay ahead of the airplane. I fly a 182 that has had a split flap condition (the side that doesn't have the motor jammed) which might make me a little more cautious than most. I have no problem getting in 10 degrees before turning base, then 20 before final, which lowers my stall speed from 51 to 44 kts before I turn final. Less experienced pilots might have trouble staying ahead of the plane, but less experience is a good reason to have the plane configuration stabilized with 20 degrees of flaps in before turning final. Great topic to cover. Thanks for all of your helpful videos!
Excellent lesson on using an available tool to reduce turn radius, reduce stall speed in turns, and be better prepared to handle situations where horizon space is limited and where the dangerous downwind turn near the ground is necessary. Another thing to consider, even if most non-Ag pilots may seldom need it, is allowing the nose to go down in turns as designed (dynamic neutral stability) for safety. The absolute safest turn is the energy management turn (gunship return to target or crop duster turn.) By anticipating the need to turn, with zoom reserve airspeed we can pitch up safely wings level for additional altitude and to slow down for a shorter radius of turn (also applying flaps is good). When we bank steeply to acquire the target (centerline extended say), we simply release all back pressure on the yoke. The resultant turn will be 1 g load factor regardless of bank angle. We need to again level the wing prior to pull up to prevent graveyard spiral. I know schools are not going to change to the energy management turn, but even shallow turns are safer done this way. Addition of flaps will certainly help as well. On my 3500 mile pipeline loop, paid at retirement guy rates so not so much oversight of insurance requirement to be solo, I took students. The made hundreds of every bank angle of turns, all at 1 g, so that they gained some muscle memory to relax back pressure rather than muscle memory to pull in turns. Our GA fatality rate results from the latter. Another technique you could help me with to demonstrate to students the need to put the centerline extended and centerline between their legs. Show us what putting the nose of the C-130 on the centerline would look like rather than putting the centreline between your (guess what? between the other pilot's legs as well) legs. Its an optical thing but works.
CFII here, seldom do I comment, but this video seems to acknowledge one of the many teaching points I attempt to hammer into my students. There is an incredible amount of nuance and individuality that comes with every airplane in any environmental scenario that should lead us to NEVER paint aviation in only black and white. Stating “NEVER use flaps in a turn” is incredibly narrow minded as there are many scenarios where this may be a pilots best option! I find it to be MUCH better to have students understand the relationship between wing loading, airspeed, and angle of attack. With a great understanding of load factor, airspeed, and angle of attack, stalls in any scenario can often be avoided by simple situational awareness coupled with muscle memory recovery in a wide variety of stall scenarios… not just simple power on and off without banking. ❤️ the video
Thank you so much! That’s one of the biggest reasons why I started making videos like this. Supply information that gives pilots “things to think about,” then they can use “good pilot judgment” to decide what they should do in any given situation
@@FreePilotTraining Absolutely 🙏🏼 keep up the great work. Educating with extensive context is absolutely exhausting, especially when dealing with people on the internet haha, but you’re doing great. New sub here.
Spot on Sir. I was taught to use flaps in a turn and not load up the wing and that will minimize the stall spin on base to final. And is I did overshoot and don’t like the it there is always a go around.
A flew a Cherokee six for decades. I picked up the habit of adding a notch flaps while in my turns to base and Final. It helped keep the nose up in the turn and while adding the flyer it seemed to make the approach smoother and more comfortable while slowing the airplane.
Your video hit on 2 excellent points: Use flaps at abeam, base, final Keep the turns at 15 - 20 degrees in the pattern ( great remainder about the greater degree turn impact on stall speed)
I’ve been watching your vids and love them. Just learned you are a C130 pilot. My son is finishing up at Vance, then on to Kirtland. He will be flying for AKANG. Thanks for the videos, I love them as a private pilot.
@@FreePilotTraining thanks for the response. Did you train at Kirtland or Little Rock? My son is looking for any gouge (his words not mine) you can offer lol.
@@FreePilotTraining During my checkride for getting cleared to solo I got told about the split flaps and dont do it, promptly sent him this video. Even instructors can learn from other instructors.
Excellent! i have seen many RC pilots stall spin while turning to land, and brought this same issue up. it never goes over well, so i demonstrate why pilots add flaps while on downwind leg. i feel, as you have shown, it allows more options when needing to correct alignment through base-final. thanks for this video. i now have something to send them too, so maybe there will be less crashing on the field. BTW, it is the only way i land a sailplane, RC and Certified.
Agree with your video. Just want to add that the load factor/stall speed only increases in a turn if you are in a level flight. If you're not pulling on the yoke in your base to final turn then the load factor and stall speed are unaffected. But your descent rate will increase whilst in the turn. You can add a bit of power.
Love you explanation and thank you for that, I will use flaps in a turn without hesitation. What I still not understand is the aerodynamic logic why the circle gets smaller when flaps are used. I believe that if you set flaps, you have to lower speed, or bank more to keep the flight level.
This is a complete theory of mine. As I stated, horizontal lift component apposes load factor, BUT if my theory is correct, load factor IS NOT equal and opposite of horizontal lift because BELOW flaps limiting speed, weight will be greater than the force created by inertia. In my personal opinion, THIS is why maneuvering speed is so important. Load factor is closer to being equal and opposite. Now, if weight is greater than the interia force, WHEN we lower flaps, the horizontal lift component can become greater WITHOUT increasing vertical lift.
If you fly relatively slow in a traffic curcuit and you do cornering, you get closer to stall. So of course use flaps to gain more buffer and fly safer during this maneuvers. Also you get step by step to your approach speed, can do trimming etc and dont have a hard change on final.
When CFI I used to teach crosswind landings using normal flaps until short final. Then raise them slowly to land with no flaps. No, you wont stall if nose is down, it even accelerates a bit.
@@FreePilotTraining That was in 1999, so i dont have any videos myself. I even had a blue line on Vglide speed on all airplanes i taught there (about 6) A now called DMMS line. If Crosswind, i used Vglide Blue Line until short final with flaps, then cut them slow to land with none or 10 degrees only. Put a blue line on Vglide first.
@@FreePilotTraining I was the old CFI that in 2010 put the first video on youtube showing how to do 4 kinds of EFATO and cutting flaps on flare and accel stalls and other maneuvers. I did that video in 1995 when CFI. Cherokee, Sebastian airport FL, 4,000 feet runways, 16 knots winds. Yes i did 4 tailwind landings on 4k runway. Cutting flaps.. After 2 weeks i was insulted so much that i put it private. Its still private. But some brave pilots started practicing the EFATO Turnbacks i showed (2 kinds, partial and no power, Cherokee 150).
I was trained in a Rans S-7 and was always taught to add the first notch of flaps at the start of the descent and full flaps on final. We would even do forward slips with full flaps. It's ok in that airplane but check the operating manual for your particular aircraft.
Thanks for this video. I fly a TBM. The flap system on this plane senses left/right discrepancies and halts flap motion if there is any deviation between flaps. It also halts flaps if there is unexpected resistance in the linkage. Very solid/reliable system. This mechanism is very important in a TBM, because they have very large flaps covering most of the trailing edge of the wing. The space left for ailerons is so small a spoiler is integrated with the aileron to enhance it’s effectiveness. The big controversy in the TBM community is landing with partial flaps (takeoff or half flaps). Daher strongly states that all landing should be with full flaps. Many feel this is not good practice at busy airports. TBMs are sequenced in with jets, because they are very fast planes. But they slow to a very low final approach speed (80-85kts) with full flaps. This tends to upset controllers at busy airports. Many TBM pilots will keep their speed up using takeoff flaps, accepting the higher landing speed in order to keep speeds much higher on approach (120 kts or faster). with takeoff flaps, the Vref is around 95, but the plane can fly up to 178 kts with takeoff flaps and gear down. Also, it slows very quickly when power is reduced, the prop is a huge speed brake. I have no concern deploying flaps in a turn in my TBM, as long as I respect the flap speed limits (178 kts indicated for takeoff flaps, 121 kts for landing flaps). Thanks for the video!
Thanks! This is an excellent discussion in itself! We have similar situations in the Herc since we’re kinda slow. Maybe not quite as slow as the TBM, but we see similar situations. I still land full flaps all the time. They can give those airliners extended vectors. It doesn’t bother me one bit. 😆
Great video! As a student pilot practicing landings with my instructor I was nervous about using flaps in the turn. My instructor could see that I reached for the flaps and hesitated because I was in a turn. She immediately let me know that it was okay and normal to use flaps while turning. I was never taught not to use flaps when they are needed.
Having flown a few hundred thousand miles as a passenger, I remember several times when the A/C flaps were extended in a turn/holding pattern. As a SEL pilot, I remember using my flaps in a turn to comply with ATC directions to reduce speed to clear traffic on short final
Really excellent points made in this video in a super clear way. I'm a flight instructor here in Australia and this gave me pause for thought about what and how I'm teaching and how that's backed up by some pretty simple examples. Some great takeaways.
I'll never understand people's comments as if THEIR situation is exactly the same as everyone else's. Here it is you just said you fly a plane that I bet 99% of viewers will NEVER fly. Yet, their Cessna experience supersedes everyone else's. Everyone should be open to learning about other things and be humble. Great video!!! Oh and another MSFS 2020 guy. Looking forward to going to school and getting my license too!
At my flight school, we are trained to put in our flaps during the turns: downwind-base, and base-final. It helps control the balloon from increased lift, and it helps us slow down.
I only fly simulator on a computer and had wondered if it is good practice to apply flaps while turning to lessen the altitude gain or am I taking an unnecessary risk.
i was taught 30⁰ max in pattern, 20 on a turbulent day, drop flaps, wait for them to stop before beginning turn to base, then drop 2nd notch, turn final, drop 3rd notch if needed or desired. the transition of adding flaps in a turn can cause upset as the nose needs dropping and you are visually occupied on the turn, not typically airspeed. use as few variables at a time to ensure youre not losing track of something important.
Nice video! Your reasoning makes sense (and in the end, who would want to question Rod? ;-) ) but I have to jump in on one point because imho it is wrong that flaps tighten your turn at least in the way you explained (and showed) it. The turn radius is depending on airspeed and bank angle - how should the flaps come in there? If you fly the same airspeed and the same bank angle, I don't see how the turn radius should change so I was quite confused by your demonstration. Yes, flaps increase lift but this is only an instantanous effect - you will have to change something (power setting and or angle of attack) to remain level and then, the wing produces again 1g of lift. Generally, flaps of course allow you to fly lower airspeeds and this lower airspeed will then give you a thighter turn radius. But if you remain level and remain at the same airspeed, I see no reason why the turn radius should change. The forces to execute the (level) turn are exactly the same regardless of the flap position. Am I missing something?
Correct. I agree with most of this well-done and nicely explained video, but this point is, unfortunately, inconsistent with facts. I responded to C91CZ with the same comment.
@@FreePilotTraining Sure it is - via the bank angle. The horizontal component of lift is in a fixed relation to the total lift and also to the vertical component: Vertical and horizontal vectors add up to the total lift vector. As the vertical component has to be 1g, this automatically fixes the other two. With flaps, you get more lift at the same angle of attack. But regardless of the flap setting, for straight and level flight, your wing has to generate exactly 1g of lift. For a level turn, it has to generate load-factor*g lift. With flaps, you can achieve this lift with a smaller angle of attack, but it's still the same amount of force.
What? People didn't know this? Nice job explaining it. As a 26 year AMT,/A&P/IA, This is common knowledge. I can't wait to enter the pilot world and debunk these type of "common misconceptions." Nice 4 fan btw, but NKAWTG!
Good video and good reasoning. 9:03 - This chart is a graphical representation of two equations. But that doesn't take away from your point. Equations are tools, and we need to use the right tool for the job.
I had a cfi teaching me some bush flying in a 1961 182. He was using the manual flaps to tighten turns in level flight following a river. Adding flaps in the turn releasing as the turn rolled level out.
I think the next topic should be using minimal flaps during high wind conditions. If you have gusty winds, I was always told never use more than 20 degrees of flaps. This is especially true for those older aircraft that I actually have a setting of 40° flaps. Incidentally, I am kind of a no flap or minimum flap person. I generally like my approach is not so steep, I keep my speed up a little and it saves fuel by not having to drag an airplane in. I also delay using flaps when I’m on an instrument approach and lower them to flaps 10 within 1 mile of the final approach fix. Understandably, larger, faster, airplanes require more usage of flaps, especially when you consider their weight.
I definitely want to discuss that in a future video. I like to challenge myself and land full flaps in high winds, but it really is best to use less flaps in those situations
@@FreePilotTraining I also use/teach full flaps as default on all landings. In strong crosswind, the headwind component and full flaps and a power/pitch approach including deceleration on short final easily allows angling across the runway from the downwind corner to the upwind big airplane touchdown zone marking at 1,000 feet. Using dynamic proactive rudder to hold new centerline and dynamic throttle to hold glide angle exactly to the first foot of the downwind corner and dynamic throttle to control both sink and balloon from gusts will result in touchdown slowly and softly on the exact downwind corner. It drives me crazy to see greater groundspeed on any landing with headwind component than on a no wind landing. Groundspeed on the angle across touchdown is often near zero. Less tin and skin is damaged at 20 knots groundspeed than at 100. How can anyone in a trainer have 100 knots groundspeed in a headwind component?
My knowledge of flaps in a turn: 1. using them above certain speeds can hurt the flaps. 2. they often reduce the AOA abilities of the aircraft but increase the lift for a given AOA. 3. They move the aerodynamic center downwards and toward the aft of the wing, which makes the aircraft more stable in pitch but less stable in roll. 4. For low lift coefficient, they're gonna cause a lot more drag than they're worth.
Excellent video. I have been flying for decades and was always taught to use flaps in the circuit/pattern. There is one other little advantage, if you apply the flaps at the same time as beginning a turn, in most GA types this will produce the usual 'balloon' in pitch, that balloon will in many cases match the increased pitch required to hold altitude in a turn. (Yes I am aware this doesn't apply to some aircraft types with barndoor flaps or types that have a pitch down moment).
When first learning in the circuit I was told not to apply the flap during execution of a turn, particularly during base to final. Once I was properly in control of maintaining airspeed during the turn then I was allowed to move from 2 to 3 (C152) while the turn was in progress. Pitch and power still apply. We only have about 450m runway and trees on the way in, so we need that reduced stall speed!
All of your videos are thoughtful and informative. All are very well put together. But this one - the best by far! What a fantastic way to use humour to teach :) Thanks v v much from Canada.
I find it hard to believe that anybody who knows how to fly a plane would argue against turning with flaps. It’s actually kinda blowing my mind lol. Excellent video!
I find that in a 172, if I keep a nice tight lower power decent from downwind, I don't have enough time to wait till I am wings level to drop flaps. When starting with new students I teach a wider pattern and apply flaps in the straightaways so they can see the changes in pitch better, but once they get better and can tighten the pattern up, we start doing them in the turns while managing good airspeed control. In a twin with a wider pattern, I do them in the straights, especially with planes like the twin C that has a pretty good pitch down when going full flaps...
I have some doubts about the explanation. First. It may surprise you, but when we are flying at the same speed with or without flaps the lift force is still the same. Second. For level turn theoretically only two ways to decrease the radius of turn. Speed decreasing or increasing of bank angle (increase a load factor). In according of your explanation, if during level turn, flaps increases a lift force which increases a horizontal component of the lift, then it must lead to increase a centrifugal force too which will lead to increase a load factor. But it doesn't work like that.
I don’t mind having a disagreement on this, but the airplane flying handbook states that flaps increase lift for a given angle of attack. Drag is also increased, but so is lift. With that in mind, this is a complete theory of mine. As I stated, horizontal lift component apposes load factor, BUT if my theory is correct, load factor IS NOT equal and opposite of horizontal lift because BELOW flaps limiting speed, weight will be greater than the force created by inertia. In my personal opinion, THIS is why maneuvering speed is so important. Load factor is closer to being equal and opposite. Now, if weight is greater than the interia force, WHEN we lower flaps, the horizontal lift component can become greater WITHOUT increasing vertical lift. I’m hoping to prove my theory true in a future video.
@@FreePilotTraining POH says true. But take in mind that when we are flying with the flaps vs without flaps, maintaining same speed, our AoA is less, so lift force still the same.
@@JordiFrio I don’t believe that to be the case. AOA does not change when we lower the flaps. Check out this video: ruclips.net/video/tKNlFJ89wvA/видео.html Start at 5:14. This is where I explain my thoughts on that
@@FreePilotTraining for straight and level flight at same speed AoA will be less with the flaps in compare to without. Remember Sr Newton. Lift is equal to weight for this condition.
My PPL instructor was the “no flaps during turn” type, and as a student it just increased the workload during straight leg portions of the pattern work.
Here in the US, not a problem. Fly outside CONUS and often you have to improvise to stay alive and keep TCAS happy. Taking off from San Jose to Managua, right turn takes you into fast rising terrain, leave the flaps at 15 and make that easy turn. It was a long time ago and yes, a DC-8-50 Same thing in a C-130 or any airplane, big or small.
Thank you so much again for your another very informative video.I haven’t read this before and never thought from this angle.Thanks for effort you put to make these videos,well done again
So I would argue the opposite. I believe that it’s much easier to handle the initial balloon from the flaps in a turn because you’re using centrifugal force to your advantage instead of forcing the nose down
In theory. However I know several stall/spin accidents originated exactly from extending flaps in a 4th turn. One even was at my home airport. I guess this might depend on an aircraft, but some flap types (fowler, „crocodile”) would quite rapidly slow the aircraft if power is not added / nose not lowered. If the pilot is not paying attention and looking for the field in the 4th turn, this might indeed not be safe. I personally feel better changing the config in a level flight, when possible.
@@DrzewieckiDesign I would say that it’s important to know your limitations as a pilot. I’m having a hard time believing that someone got task saturated by lowering flaps in the turn. I bet there were some other factors involved
My private pilot instructor was a retired Airforce colonel with a civilian ATP rating. He taught me to use flaps 10 degrees at the end of the runway on downwind, additional 10 degrees on the turn to base, and an additional 10 on the turn to final, over the years I have never experienced a single negative event from using flaps and I never approached a stall in turns.
That is exactly what I teach
@@FreePilotTraining And you are 100% correct, from 70s to today that technic worked for me.
To make this all work out as it should you complemented the flaps with the proper airspeed.
@@sncy5303 I can't see any logical pilot arguing against using flaps in turns.
@@shopart1488 exactly right
Same indicated airspeeds no matter what the density altitude is.
I have 18,000+ hours and am currently a captain on a 737, we use flaps in turns all the time. It’s an amazing tool for energy, speed and path management.
Thank you! Love getting comments from experts on the subject
Based flaps during turns enjoyer
Just want to say thank you for all the videos that you are making for us the general public.
I work as an apprentice A&P and I’m a student pilot . Quick back story , I’ve been trying to do this since I was 15 years old when I started flying.
Life and the fact that Flying is so dang expensive ! I’m now 49 years old on tue verge of getting my PPL and Airframe and Power plant Certifications. 🎉
I say this to say if it where not for you , your time and I just wanted to say thank you for all the time and your effort . I would not be doing this with ought you and others that do this for the GA world.
You Lady’s & Gents are un sung heroes of GA .
Thank you 🙏🏻
Michael John . KLZU.
Thank you so much Michael John! That means a lot! Good luck on that PPL! It’s worth the work!
You are funny! I'm a student pilot and I lower the flaps in a turn to either base or final almost every single time. But I have to admit that a small voice sometimes asks "should I be doing this now?" Glad you cleared it up for me and gave me more confidence,thx!
😆 you’re welcome!
I was taught to turn then base then use flaps 20° to bleed off some speed and altitude. Turn Final then flaps 30° to bleed off more speed and altitude.
We always use flaps in the pattern in the Cherokee 140. First notch downwind abeam the numbers, second notch on base, third notch on final. Same approach every time. Love the videos brother, keep ‘em coming!
Thanks! The 140 is such an awesome aircraft. Thanks for the comment!
that's how most pilots are taught it
Had same training on 152 and 172... totally standard I believe....
yeah in france we also use second notch on base turn, flying in a PS28 Cruiser
I thought the issue was whether or not to pull flaps down during the turns.
1 / Sin (45°) = 1.41, 1 / Sin (30°) = 2.0. As an electrician, we use these every time we bend an offset in conduit, was cool to see it pop up in flight training too 🤓
😂 🤯😂
Is there a good video to learn it ? Im doing bend radias in my A&P course .
@@michaeljohn8905 tons. Search for “conduit bending” and you’ll find lots. Also might look up the same for pipe fitters. The math will be the same for what you’re doing, you just need to find the video that explains it best for you. Good luck!
It’s the secant, or 1/cos for load factor. Sec 60 = 1/cos 60 = 2. Of course the sine and cosine of 45 are the same for an isosceles right triangle.
I've watched every one of your videos. I only fly in msfs but I have gotten much better from watching them. This might be my favorite video so far. I love your idea about creating a video with Rod. The second flying related book I ever bought was probably his 1980ish manual. First was Stick and Rudder which I am actually rereading now. I fly mostly the Beaver in the sim and I've seen multiple videos saying to use flaps in a turn with them. Now I understand why. Thanks for expending the time and energy to make these videos!
You’re so welcome! I hope to start incorporating some sim stuff into my future vids!
I want to start the ms2020 flight sim but I want to fly the Cirrus Vision is it offered Thanks havent purchased the software yet where should I get it from ? Thanks
@@tradingtimes5752 I bought it from the Microsoft online store. I wish I had the disk, but I don’t know if you can even do that anymore
Amazing work - as always thanks for giving the detail and making the video simple to follow
Thank you so much! That means a lot!
In Canadian flight schools, teach the same as what you explain .canyon turn is a solid example of using full flaps during turn .
BS, Full flaps at low power due alt is DRAG FLAPS. Use only LIft Flaps or under 20 degrees.
@@emergencylowmaneuvering7350 I don’t think you know what a canyon turn is. The canyon turn is done at full throttle, there’s nothing low power about it. I was taught: 1) maneuver to the far right or left side of the canyon, you will be in an upslope position on the mountain close to the ground, 2) cut throttle, 3) nose up to trade airspeed for altitude, 4) once in the white arc drop full flap and roll it over to 60 degrees of bank in the downslope direction towards the center of the canyon, 5) nose down to maintain 65 knots trading altitude for airspeed, 6) roll out of the turn, recover and clean up the airplane. The technique results in a very tight turn, I’ve executed a 180 degree turn in a C172 loaded within 90% of max gross weight in a 370m radius using this technique. The turn requires loss of altitude to manage the airspeed.
Edited to add radius from my ForeFlight track log.
@@emergencylowmaneuvering7350 slower you go and higher angle of bank would result in the tightest turn. Full flaps would ensure you can fly slow as possible to preform the turn with the smallest radius and not stall
@@kurtisf3366 LOL. They say im an expert on 3 kinds of Turnbacks and Turnarounds. It is bullshit to cut the power, raise nose when on a canyon. Between mountains you tend to pull up more than over flat area due the ground on windshield optical effect. You will do an accelerated stall before flaps added.
Tell that Bullshiter to demo that on a real canyon at 10,000 feet density altitude from a Vx climb as usual. He is bullshiting you. DEMAND THAT VIDEO from a real vx climb.
@@Warhawk666 How many power off steep turn accelerated stalls have you done ? I used to teach them on Cherokees, Grummans and Tomahawks and Cessnas.
YOU are advocating accelerated stalls on Box Canyon Turnbacks.
Love your sense of humor, it actually helps me learn MUCH MUCH better the way in which you present things and make it fun as well. Keep it going man you’re awesome 😎
Thank you so much! I really appreciate the comment! I got one the other day telling me how immature I am. I’ll continue with the humor, cuz I think it really helps retain information. I think that guy was just a sour puss
@@FreePilotTraining hey forget those haters, if you’re so immature..why are they watching then..most of us who watch are here to continue expanding our knowledge with you and what you offer; the others meh forget them.
Cheers from Chicago
@@danielmahecha6779 thanks! That’s exactly right!
Great video! Going to cite part 23 next time I have this conversation. However, a month ago at the flight school I currently work at there was a flap roller that failed and the flaps got wedged into the ailerons and locked them into position. The aircraft was in a bank at the time so they got locked into a bank and had to declare an emergency and fly another lap in the pattern with rudder and elevator trim. Highly unlikely situation, but that is also a hazard. I will still use flaps in turns for all my patterns.
That is an excellent point. If the flaps get wedged into the ailerons, your basically screwed if you can’t get those loose. The best option is to try and move them back where they were immediately
and climb if possible and last resort pop your caps Cirrus wannabe man here
This was awesome. I remember my instructor telling me not to use flaps in a turn but was never told why. Great video. I love how informative you are while also backing up your claims.
Thanks Nicolas!
I always drop my flaps during a turn onto base (20°) and final (30°). But it really depends on my airspeed and how the aircraft feels to me.
Just finished up my CPL and even during that training, I was getting a "Don't use flaps during the turn" from a couple of instructors, with no real explanation of why they thought it was bad. During my training, they also said that the wings don't care which way the plane is turned or turning. the airflow over the wing is the same, so if' its the same, then the plane doesn't care if you put flaps down in straight and level, or in a turn.. This was an awesome video! Thanks for taking the time to explain.
You’re welcome! That’s a fact…as long as you’re coordinated and the controls have been neutralized.
@Matty Crayon:
If they were right we could never do an orbit on approach....as requested by ATC - raising flaps here, especially after base leg, would be bad, unwise and uneccesary.
@@a320nick WTF !!
Good job! We use and adjust flap settings all of the time in the military (fighters & transports) and in the airlines while turning. BTW- transports are designed under the stricter guidelines of FAA part 25. That's probably why all of the transports I've flown (Boeing & Lockheed) have a system to stop flap movement once an asymmetry is detected. Happy landings!
Thank you so much! I need to look more at Part 25, but that makes total sense!
Without split, (assymetric) flap protection as in most light aircraft designs, flaps should not be deployed in a turn.
Take for example, a Cessna which has cable operated flaps.
There are 4 separate flap cables to pull the flaps up and down.
Two cables pull the flaps down and two cables pull the flaps up.
If one cable breaks due to corrosion which is possible, the flap operated by that cable will not be pulled down, say to a 40 position in an older Cessna.
The opposite side flap will be pulled down to its 40 position.
Trying to keep the aircraft flyable during final approach to the runway with ailerons and rudder will be very difficult, probably impossible depending on airspeed.
Excellent video on flap usage. Flaps and maintaining DMMS until final will work every time. "Maintain thy airspeed lest the Earth rise up and smite thee." Disasters don't just happen. They're [triggered by] a chain of critical events.
Thanks! 😂 I remember that verse from somewhere.
My question is what if DMMS is equal to Vfe? It is in my aircraft.
Thank you so much for sharing this video! I had an instructor teach me not to lower flaps in a turn when I started and my CFIIs have all consistently emphasized doing it on circling approaches. I kept asking them, very confused, and none of them knew what I was talking about. I can’t express enough how much I appreciate this!
You’re welcome! That’s exactly right, flaps are important on circling approaches. In fact, flaps can change the category of some aircraft when circling because the circling minimums are based on turn radius
I think your instructor was correct, but not for the reasons you think. Always be wings level when selecting flaps. So for instance progressively select flaps on base leg. The very act of selecting flaps will cause some pitch variations, which may catch you out if you are fully concentrating on your bank angle, in an ever changing horizon.
@@hiscifi2986 I hear the logic behind this, but I still question it. In a turn to base, you’re pitching down. You should be paying attention to everything.
Are you saying when you fly a circling approach you don’t add flaps in the turn to short final?
In the UK we don't do the circling approach, we keep the circuits rectangular. Also using no more than 15 deg angle of bank in the climbing turns, with all flaps selection on base leg. This makes for a stabilised final from the 600ft turn onto final. We also universally adopt the 'Bumffpitch' memo on the 1000ft downwind leg.
30 years of flying and instructing and 5,000 landings later….I never even heard of any concern at all for applying flaps in a turn until I saw this video.
I had never heard of it either until I started getting comments
Same here.
Better to nip it in the bud before it (the bad habit) develops😂.
EXCELLENT explanation. 25+ year commercial airline pilot had me paranoid about split flaps in the pattern while PPL training in a Skyhawk.
That’s so funny cuz the airline guys drop them in the turn all the time.
this video isn't a drag .
Thanks! And I love the pun! 😆
It lifted my spirits!
I learned that in early 1990's. If overshooting alignment on GRM or base to final, you pop more flaps while banking up to 45 degree, then after level, bring them up if getting to slow or low. Crop Dusters do that every day on their GRM Alignments.
Keep in mind, too, that those load factors and stall speeds at various bank angles only apply in level flight. Not in a descending turn which is what we’re usually doing in the pattern. 👍
Exactly
they apply in a climb or descent exactly as in level flight as long as your climb or descent rate is constant.
for example, if you're descending wings level at a constant 500 ft/min it's still 1 G. the vertical speed of the aircraft is irrelevant if you're not accelerating vertically (thus changing the load factor - which is what really drives the change in stall speed)
@@BillPalmer I'm afraid technically this is incorrect. Load factor is lift divided by weight, at a no-turn climb or descent the load factor equals the cosine of the climb/descent angle (which means that for small angles it is extremely close to 1, making the difference unnoticeable and irrelevant). I will be happy to explain further if of interest.
@@talreichert Ok, ya got me it's not 1 G it's 0.9986 G on a typical 3° descent angle (e.g., ILS glideslope)
However the G force in the cockpit if the scale was level with the ground would be 1.0. Just like it is in an elevator going up or down at a constant speed.
It's interesting to note that the difference in g force of just being on the equator vs the pole is a bigger difference than that 3° climb or descent (0.65% vs 0.14%)
Cheers. 🙂
@@BillPalmer Well, I did say it's extremely close to 1... The issue I was commenting about was the categorical statement that any time an airplane is not accelerating it means the load factor is 1. Naturally, should you choose a steeper angle, you'll get a more noticeable change (e.g. high-speed glide or a climb at Vx). Lastly, I agree that if you put an object on a scale in the cockpit, any non-accelerated situation results in it weighing its full weight (m*g), just not as a result of the lift.
What a great instructor! Thank you so much for all you dedication and help with this great channel. I am learning a lot from your videos in my pursue of my LAPL here in the UK. I just discovered your videos and I count myself very lucky!! Thanks mate. I wish you all the best and God bless you!
Thank you! Super cool! Maybe I can fly there someday
Flaps are an integral part of patern work. You start to add flaps on the down wind before even making your cross wind turn. Not to mention short, and\or soft field takeoffs...
I really appreciate the videos and the way you explain things. The humor added in helps keep it fun and engaging. You remind me alot of Rod Machado with the style. Keep up the great work! And E=MC² to you too buddy!😂😂
Yes, they are! They are an excellent tool! Thank you so much!
Very good explanation of an "old wives tale" about flaps in a turn. I have flown heavy jets to small aircraft and honestly never heard anyone tell me not to use flaps in a turn. I fly a Bonanza now and we just had an AD required in the last two years due to the right aileron cable having corrosion on a turn buckle due to moisture from a heater duct. There were at least two inflight problems and several hundred discoveries on the ground. With the rudder aileron interconnect, when one of the turnbuckles broke inflight the pilot, using all of his experience and brains, determined that if he maintained 130 knots indicated AND making only a continuous left hand turn, was able to advise ATC, find a LONG runway and approached it in a turn and got it safely on the ground. The right aileron was deflected up and he had to use almost full left aileron to maintain control. There is an interview with him on RUclips somewhere. Very scary and well handled. There have been others that failed upon inspection but thankfully on the ground. Mine had the beginnings of corrosion when I checked it. The Bonanza wing is such a great flying wing I tend to not use flaps on long runways but not due to concerns of split flaps but just do it that way...why? Had a student in his Bonanza that his flaps stuck down full and I had to tell him how to "repair" them so he could get home. Your demo of turn radius makes a lot of sense. Thanks
Thanks! That is really interesting! I’ll have to look that up
I think the main reason why CFIs teach you not to use flaps is that for student pilots, landings are hard enough to do as it is and they don't need the extra workload. It's easier to handle one thing at a time, turning OR changing the flap settings. It's easy to get overwhelmed and miss a crucial change in attitude or speed. Imagine a student making a turn to final. Assuming that their descend was stabilized so far, their main focus is probably on making the centerline. Maybe they'll also be able to keep an eye on the speed. However, if they change the flap setting during the turn, the workload increases. The plane will want to slow down and lower the descend rate, both of which need to be countered.
In my view, changing the flap setting during a turn is not inherently dangerous, but it does increase the workload, which is not ideal, especially for students. Once you're more comfortable handling the plane and predicting what it is going to do, I don't see any issues using the flaps while turning, though.
I do believe this to be the case, but I don’t see the difference in doing that and increasing the flaps in the descent which can initially cause the plane to balloon and make them more unstable on final
By far the best pilot channel on RUclips. ❤ always 100% in depth with clear cut explanations. Keep doing what you’re doing!
Thank you so much! That means a lot!
@@FreePilotTraining of course man, you helped me get through PPL. I’m on Instrument training now. But every new student at my school I meet, I send them here.
@@phosfurgaming917 much appreciated! I wish I could’ve started doing instrument videos by now. I’ve just been so busy lately
@@FreePilotTraining no worries man. I know when you get to it eventually I might actually understand it lol. No rush
The "level flight" part is a pretty big part of what you said about the chart that shows the relationship between bank angle and increase in stall speed. If you're not pulling back in the turn, you're not increasing load factor, and therefore stall speed does not increase in the turn.
Yes, that’s why I said “low on glideslope.” If your low, it’s not uncommon to make a level turn on base to final
Great video to show what flaps do!!!!! I am doing the ground school and am an engineer but this really brought it all together! Thanks!
Awesome! Thanks Frank!
I’m a student pilot and have been nervous about dropping flaps in a turn for fear of upsetting the attitude of the AC. After watching this video you clarified a lot of things that make sense and have taken that worry away. Thanks!
You’re welcome! Thanks for watching
Flap extension normally makes the nose pitch down, so don’t worry.
@@bungee7503 that’s exactly right
Always increase your airspeed you can always loose that increased speed on final
The book is suggested increase it by 20% see how much better it feels.
If flaps increase lift, how do they make the nose pitch down? I’m also a student pilot soloing in a champ right now which doesn’t have flaps but in msfs (I know it’s just a simulator) when I lower the flaps when landing, the nose pitches up at each notch of flaps only right when I extend them, after pushing the yoke forward to keep my glide pitch, it levels back out
Great video and explanation! Another option to always consider, if things are going wrong (I.e. overshoot, too much Bank, not stable,etc.), is to go around. NO reason to push a bad situation.
Absolutely. There’s nothing wrong with going around
Student pilot's are taught to not SET flaps during a turn for CRM. They have enough to keep them busy just working the pattern, power. airspeed and don't need to add putting their eyes in the cockpit to find and use flaps during critical low manufacturing. They are just never taught its ok to do as they get more experience. They should be taught to set prior to the turn to maintain the FAA stable approach. You're exactly spot on, flaps for pattern turns are a great tool.
Thanks for the comment. I’m sure you mean SRM? CRM probably doesn’t apply to most student pilots. I like my students to practice task management skills in the cockpit while I’m there. That helps them develop those multitasking skills in the cockpit
@Free Pilot Training not familiar with SRM? We use CRM for Cockpit Resource Mangement with students in the midwest.
At least that's what it was 3 years ago for my CFI. Wouldn't surprise me it changed with so many other FAA changes recently.
keep up the great videos
Thank you. Excellent video and great technical research and analysis. I’ve been instructed both do and don’t over the years. I usually do apply flaps in turns and find that compared to level flight, they are virtually unnoticeable to passengers because the sensations related to any changes in pitch and speed are both mitigated by banking. I also seem to fly a smoother, more accurate and stable pattern applying flaps when they are needed instead of waiting for an arbitrary level off period between turns; especially when flying relatively tight, “power off” patterns. Thanks again!
Thanks! I really appreciate that! I never thought of that before, but using them in the turn could alleviate that ballooning feeling from lowering them in level flight
When you are turning for final you are also descending, so you aren't in level flight which is a requirement for determining that the load factor at 45 degrees is 1.414G. So, since you are descending, won't the load factor actually be less than 1.414G, thereby contributing less to the increase in stall speed? I.E., maintaining a descent while banking at 45 degrees in a base to final turn adds a little bit more to the "safety factor" that you mention. Do I understand that correctly?
Yes, this is true. That’s why I mentioned being “low on glideslope.” The real problem is when you level out and steepen that turn up.
Great point about how load factor increases stall speed (and how flaps help with that) and how flaps can tighten up turn radius.
Thanks for the great video. Appreciate your hard work! Here is my equation... C130 driver + military training + FAA certs + Rod M. homework = YT video that is legit & worth twice the price! 😎😂
😂 I love that equation! Thank you so much!
I just found your channel and I like it a lot how you approach that topic. What a friend of mine showed me also when to lower my flaps to use it as a even better tool. This applies to a C-172: Abeam the numbers in the downwind leg, flaps 10 and trim to 80 kts IAS and power setting to have a stable flight. In the apex of the turn to base leg, lower to 20. Without any input, power adjustments or trim the C-172 will slow down to 75 kts IAS after the turn still perfectly trimmed out. Same then for base to final. Just next notch of flaps of 30 degrees. After the final turn, you will be at 60kts. Way less work to keep your attitude, airspeed and descent rate. Very helpful in our crowded pattern and super short 1340 ft (408 m) runway where every landing has to be on spot.
Thank you Markus! I appreciate that. Great tip!
Regarding tightening the turn with flaps - something got a little off. The turn radius is purely a function of the horizontal lift component (from the bank angle) and your true airspeed. Sorry for an equation: r=v^2/a. If your bank angle was truly the same, you were making exactly the same lift as in the no-flap case - AoA was lowered to compensate for the flaps. How do we know this? Consider that your vertical lift component was also identical given that you were not climbing or descending during the turn. The two ways to tighten a turn is to slow down or increase bank angle.
Here is a related video - load factor with airspeed.
ruclips.net/video/7OKpGiHaEio/видео.html
However, flaps also increase lift. Therefore, if I bank my airplane, my horizontal lift is also increased.
@@FreePilotTraining flaps increase lift if all other factors remain the same. If you maintained the same bank and increase lift, you would tighten the turn AND start climbing. That is, both the horizontal and vertical components would have increased. Since you remained at the same altitude you know the vertical component did not increase and thus you can deduce that the horizontal component also remained the same.
@@FreePilotTraining Just compared screenshots of the brief period the bank was visible in the video. The flapped bank angle was noticeably steeper. If both are representative of the entire turn, that would explain the different turn radii.
@@N91CZ I agree 100%, N91CZ. Turn radius is purely a function of groundspeed and bank angle.
Now it IS true that flaps let you tighten the turn radius because you can then safely fly at a lower airspeed (so, a lower groundspeed) - or a steeper bank angle - if you do so! But if you really do maintain the same bank angle and the same airspeed (again, technically groundspeed), your turn radius cannot change.
There is another misconception in this thread - that is that wing loading is less in a descending turn. It is at the _start_ of the descent - that is, when the airplane is accelerating down - but that lasts only so long. Once the descent is established, the wing loading returns to what it would be (for that bank angle) in level flight.
BTW, I lower flaps in the turn, as needed, and that's what I teach.
I agree, too. I also wrote a comment which says basically the same (did not see this one at the time).
*I love when RUclipsrs get fed up with geeks in the comment section making up BS/spreading false info. Great video* 👌🏻
😂 don’t get me angry! Lol, thank you so much!
When I was a young man (long time ago) I spent a lot of hours in the right seat of a Beaver in the Canadian north. We routinely found ourselves dropping into tiny lakes on steep approach. Couldn't do it without flaps deployed during the entire circuit. You are bang on!
Thanks Robert! Someday I’m going to fly a Beaver! Those look so cool!
@@FreePilotTraining They shake and rattle but they never quit!
I was taught not to lower flaps during a turn but lower them before rolling into that turn because of the slight chance one side hangs up as the instructor says. Very informative video thanks for posting.
Thanks!
I have ALWAYS used flaps in a turn (Cessna 152/172 pilot with 125hrs). I was actually taught to get to flaps 20 before my final turn. Flaps 10 almost always occurs in my base turn (as I was taught). This was to prevent rushing flap deployment during base or final... which I'd argue... rushing is MORE dangerous. This video is jam packed with amazing info. Love it! Thanks mate!
It definitely works! Thank you so much!
A very good explanation and perfectly correct. Having ridden with Ag pilot's in NZ, (when you were allowed to do so, not now.) they would always be adding flaps during their turns particularly when still heavily loaded. And if anyone can get the best out of an aircraft safely it would be an Ag pilot. I've learned more from them than an instructor and I apply a lot of what I have learned from Ag pilot's to my own piloting although I refrain from flying at the low altitudes required for Ag work.
I had no idea that ag pilots did this on purpose until producing this video. I’ve been getting lots of comments mentioning that
You bring up a lot of good points, and a couple of very important things I didn't know/hadn't thought about. However, the most important thing, IMHO, that you left out is to stay ahead of the airplane. I fly a 182 that has had a split flap condition (the side that doesn't have the motor jammed) which might make me a little more cautious than most. I have no problem getting in 10 degrees before turning base, then 20 before final, which lowers my stall speed from 51 to 44 kts before I turn final. Less experienced pilots might have trouble staying ahead of the plane, but less experience is a good reason to have the plane configuration stabilized with 20 degrees of flaps in before turning final. Great topic to cover. Thanks for all of your helpful videos!
Thank you! That is so true! Staying ahead of the airplane is key! Especially in a complex aircraft
Thank you. Learned so much. Been frightened of flaps.
You’re welcome!
I have always made my turns in report base and report on final to use the flaps, thank you for yours videos.
Nice! You’re welcome!
Keep up the great work! Your navlog video helped me throughout my entire PPL training up to passing my checkride. And to prove that, a^2 + b^2 = c^2
Thank you so much! Congrats on that PPL! Glad to have you around
Excellent lesson on using an available tool to reduce turn radius, reduce stall speed in turns, and be better prepared to handle situations where horizon space is limited and where the dangerous downwind turn near the ground is necessary. Another thing to consider, even if most non-Ag pilots may seldom need it, is allowing the nose to go down in turns as designed (dynamic neutral stability) for safety. The absolute safest turn is the energy management turn (gunship return to target or crop duster turn.) By anticipating the need to turn, with zoom reserve airspeed we can pitch up safely wings level for additional altitude and to slow down for a shorter radius of turn (also applying flaps is good). When we bank steeply to acquire the target (centerline extended say), we simply release all back pressure on the yoke. The resultant turn will be 1 g load factor regardless of bank angle. We need to again level the wing prior to pull up to prevent graveyard spiral.
I know schools are not going to change to the energy management turn, but even shallow turns are safer done this way. Addition of flaps will certainly help as well. On my 3500 mile pipeline loop, paid at retirement guy rates so not so much oversight of insurance requirement to be solo, I took students. The made hundreds of every bank angle of turns, all at 1 g, so that they gained some muscle memory to relax back pressure rather than muscle memory to pull in turns. Our GA fatality rate results from the latter.
Another technique you could help me with to demonstrate to students the need to put the centerline extended and centerline between their legs. Show us what putting the nose of the C-130 on the centerline would look like rather than putting the centreline between your (guess what? between the other pilot's legs as well) legs. Its an optical thing but works.
That’s exactly right! I use that too. You can’t stall an airplane that has zero Gs on it.
CFII here, seldom do I comment, but this video seems to acknowledge one of the many teaching points I attempt to hammer into my students. There is an incredible amount of nuance and individuality that comes with every airplane in any environmental scenario that should lead us to NEVER paint aviation in only black and white. Stating “NEVER use flaps in a turn” is incredibly narrow minded as there are many scenarios where this may be a pilots best option! I find it to be MUCH better to have students understand the relationship between wing loading, airspeed, and angle of attack. With a great understanding of load factor, airspeed, and angle of attack, stalls in any scenario can often be avoided by simple situational awareness coupled with muscle memory recovery in a wide variety of stall scenarios… not just simple power on and off without banking. ❤️ the video
Thank you so much! That’s one of the biggest reasons why I started making videos like this. Supply information that gives pilots “things to think about,” then they can use “good pilot judgment” to decide what they should do in any given situation
@@FreePilotTraining Absolutely 🙏🏼 keep up the great work. Educating with extensive context is absolutely exhausting, especially when dealing with people on the internet haha, but you’re doing great. New sub here.
@@ShadowFreedum thank you so much!
Great video. Fortunately, I was taught to use all the tools at my disposal to make the plane do what I need it to do. Happy E+MC^2 to you too.
Thanks Jody! 😆
Rod Machado is awesome. Really enjoyed his books while learning.
Yes, he is!
Spot on Sir. I was taught to use flaps in a turn and not load up the wing and that will minimize the stall spin on base to final. And is I did overshoot and don’t like the it there is always a go around.
A flew a Cherokee six for decades. I picked up the habit of adding a notch flaps while in my turns to base and Final. It helped keep the nose up in the turn and while adding the flyer it seemed to make the approach smoother and more comfortable while slowing the airplane.
I’ve actually heard that exact technique from a few Cherokee six pilot on here
Brilliant! This is the best explanation ever, on so many different levels!
Thank you so much High Field!
Your video hit on 2 excellent points:
Use flaps at abeam, base, final
Keep the turns at 15 - 20 degrees in the pattern ( great remainder about the greater degree turn impact on stall speed)
Thanks Chuck!
I’ve been watching your vids and love them. Just learned you are a C130 pilot. My son is finishing up at Vance, then on to Kirtland. He will be flying for AKANG. Thanks for the videos, I love them as a private pilot.
Thank you so much! That’s so awesome! I tried really hard to get in that unit and they told me they don’t have any slots for rated pilots. So jealous…
@@FreePilotTraining thanks for the response. Did you train at Kirtland or Little Rock? My son is looking for any gouge (his words not mine) you can offer lol.
@@GyrionSports Little Rock. I’d love to help him out, but the AF schools are pretty great
Great video. First time I actually got a comprehensive explanation on this topic!
Thank you!
A great point! My instructor slapped my hand for putting flaps in during a turn... Going to send him the link! And show this to MY students. Thanks!
Awesome! Time to ruffle some feathers 😆
@@FreePilotTraining During my checkride for getting cleared to solo I got told about the split flaps and dont do it, promptly sent him this video. Even instructors can learn from other instructors.
Excellent! i have seen many RC pilots stall spin while turning to land, and brought this same issue up. it never goes over well, so i demonstrate why pilots add flaps while on downwind leg. i feel, as you have shown, it allows more options when needing to correct alignment through base-final. thanks for this video. i now have something to send them too, so maybe there will be less crashing on the field. BTW, it is the only way i land a sailplane, RC and Certified.
Too cool. I’m always fascinated when RC pilots and simmers also find these videos useful
Agree with your video. Just want to add that the load factor/stall speed only increases in a turn if you are in a level flight. If you're not pulling on the yoke in your base to final turn then the load factor and stall speed are unaffected. But your descent rate will increase whilst in the turn. You can add a bit of power.
Fact! That’s why I mentioned being low on final
Love you explanation and thank you for that, I will use flaps in a turn without hesitation.
What I still not understand is the aerodynamic logic why the circle gets smaller when flaps are used.
I believe that if you set flaps, you have to lower speed, or bank more to keep the flight level.
This is a complete theory of mine. As I stated, horizontal lift component apposes load factor, BUT if my theory is correct, load factor IS NOT equal and opposite of horizontal lift because BELOW flaps limiting speed, weight will be greater than the force created by inertia. In my personal opinion, THIS is why maneuvering speed is so important. Load factor is closer to being equal and opposite. Now, if weight is greater than the interia force, WHEN we lower flaps, the horizontal lift component can become greater WITHOUT increasing vertical lift.
If you fly relatively slow in a traffic curcuit and you do cornering, you get closer to stall. So of course use flaps to gain more buffer and fly safer during this maneuvers. Also you get step by step to your approach speed, can do trimming etc and dont have a hard change on final.
When CFI I used to teach crosswind landings using normal flaps until short final. Then raise them slowly to land with no flaps. No, you wont stall if nose is down, it even accelerates a bit.
I’ve actually heard this technique a few times now. I may make a video
@@FreePilotTraining That was in 1999, so i dont have any videos myself. I even had a blue line on Vglide speed on all airplanes i taught there (about 6) A now called DMMS line.
If Crosswind, i used Vglide Blue Line until short final with flaps, then cut them slow to land with none or 10 degrees only.
Put a blue line on Vglide first.
@@FreePilotTraining I was the old CFI that in 2010 put the first video on youtube showing how to do 4 kinds of EFATO and cutting flaps on flare and accel stalls and other maneuvers. I did that video in 1995 when CFI. Cherokee, Sebastian airport FL, 4,000 feet runways, 16 knots winds. Yes i did 4 tailwind landings on 4k runway. Cutting flaps..
After 2 weeks i was insulted so much that i put it private. Its still private. But some brave pilots started practicing the EFATO Turnbacks i showed (2 kinds, partial and no power, Cherokee 150).
Thanks for the great videos, you are helping me through groundschool!
You’re welcome! I’ll be seeing you around then!
I was trained in a Rans S-7 and was always taught to add the first notch of flaps at the start of the descent and full flaps on final. We would even do forward slips with full flaps. It's ok in that airplane but check the operating manual for your particular aircraft.
Yes, that’s exactly right. Cessna says it’s prohibited with full flaps
This video was so many different degrees of great explanation
Thanks! I appreciate that!
Thanks for this video. I fly a TBM. The flap system on this plane senses left/right discrepancies and halts flap motion if there is any deviation between flaps. It also halts flaps if there is unexpected resistance in the linkage. Very solid/reliable system.
This mechanism is very important in a TBM, because they have very large flaps covering most of the trailing edge of the wing. The space left for ailerons is so small a spoiler is integrated with the aileron to enhance it’s effectiveness.
The big controversy in the TBM community is landing with partial flaps (takeoff or half flaps). Daher strongly states that all landing should be with full flaps. Many feel this is not good practice at busy airports. TBMs are sequenced in with jets, because they are very fast planes. But they slow to a very low final approach speed (80-85kts) with full flaps. This tends to upset controllers at busy airports.
Many TBM pilots will keep their speed up using takeoff flaps, accepting the higher landing speed in order to keep speeds much higher on approach (120 kts or faster). with takeoff flaps, the Vref is around 95, but the plane can fly up to 178 kts with takeoff flaps and gear down. Also, it slows very quickly when power is reduced, the prop is a huge speed brake.
I have no concern deploying flaps in a turn in my TBM, as long as I respect the flap speed limits (178 kts indicated for takeoff flaps, 121 kts for landing flaps).
Thanks for the video!
Thanks! This is an excellent discussion in itself! We have similar situations in the Herc since we’re kinda slow. Maybe not quite as slow as the TBM, but we see similar situations. I still land full flaps all the time. They can give those airliners extended vectors. It doesn’t bother me one bit. 😆
Great video! As a student pilot practicing landings with my instructor I was nervous about using flaps in the turn. My instructor could see that I reached for the flaps and hesitated because I was in a turn. She immediately let me know that it was okay and normal to use flaps while turning. I was never taught not to use flaps when they are needed.
Thank you! Sounds like you had a good instructor!
U
Thank you for doing a deep dive on this topic!!!
You’re welcome!
Having flown a few hundred thousand miles as a passenger, I remember several times when the A/C flaps were extended in a turn/holding pattern.
As a SEL pilot, I remember using my flaps in a turn to comply with ATC directions to reduce speed to clear traffic on short final
Exactly! Nothing wrong with that
Incredibly well done. Keep it up!
Thanks Tim!
Just improved my WarThunder performance. Thanks!
😆 you’re welcome!
Really excellent points made in this video in a super clear way. I'm a flight instructor here in Australia and this gave me pause for thought about what and how I'm teaching and how that's backed up by some pretty simple examples. Some great takeaways.
Thanks Luke! I appreciate that! I need to get down there and fly at some point
Who flies better?
Roos or Koalas?
I'll never understand people's comments as if THEIR situation is exactly the same as everyone else's. Here it is you just said you fly a plane that I bet 99% of viewers will NEVER fly. Yet, their Cessna experience supersedes everyone else's. Everyone should be open to learning about other things and be humble. Great video!!!
Oh and another MSFS 2020 guy. Looking forward to going to school and getting my license too!
I appreciate the comment. Yeah, you have to take a lot of these comments with a grain of salt. I’ve gotten pretty good about that
@@FreePilotTraining Good on you! I couldn't though. 👍🏾 And that's why I'm not a RUclipsr. 😄
It can get frustrating. I do find them useful too though
That’s wow…no comments, just dropping my jaw, excellent educational content!!!
Thank you so much! That means a lot!
this video got me thinking!
Beautifully explained. Learnt a lot.
Many thanks!
You’re welcome! Thanks for watching!
At my flight school, we are trained to put in our flaps during the turns: downwind-base, and base-final. It helps control the balloon from increased lift, and it helps us slow down.
I like that technique
I only fly simulator on a computer and had wondered if it is good practice to apply flaps while turning to lessen the altitude gain or am I taking an unnecessary risk.
i was taught 30⁰ max in pattern, 20 on a turbulent day, drop flaps, wait for them to stop before beginning turn to base, then drop 2nd notch, turn final, drop 3rd notch if needed or desired. the transition of adding flaps in a turn can cause upset as the nose needs dropping and you are visually occupied on the turn, not typically airspeed. use as few variables at a time to ensure youre not losing track of something important.
Nice video! Your reasoning makes sense (and in the end, who would want to question Rod? ;-) ) but I have to jump in on one point because imho it is wrong that flaps tighten your turn at least in the way you explained (and showed) it. The turn radius is depending on airspeed and bank angle - how should the flaps come in there? If you fly the same airspeed and the same bank angle, I don't see how the turn radius should change so I was quite confused by your demonstration. Yes, flaps increase lift but this is only an instantanous effect - you will have to change something (power setting and or angle of attack) to remain level and then, the wing produces again 1g of lift. Generally, flaps of course allow you to fly lower airspeeds and this lower airspeed will then give you a thighter turn radius. But if you remain level and remain at the same airspeed, I see no reason why the turn radius should change. The forces to execute the (level) turn are exactly the same regardless of the flap position. Am I missing something?
Correct. I agree with most of this well-done and nicely explained video, but this point is, unfortunately, inconsistent with facts. I responded to C91CZ with the same comment.
Turn radius is directly related to the horizontal component of lift. There’s quite a bit of information in the PHAK on the subject
@@FreePilotTraining Sure it is - via the bank angle. The horizontal component of lift is in a fixed relation to the total lift and also to the vertical component: Vertical and horizontal vectors add up to the total lift vector. As the vertical component has to be 1g, this automatically fixes the other two.
With flaps, you get more lift at the same angle of attack. But regardless of the flap setting, for straight and level flight, your wing has to generate exactly 1g of lift. For a level turn, it has to generate load-factor*g lift. With flaps, you can achieve this lift with a smaller angle of attack, but it's still the same amount of force.
Destroying old pilot tales with data…nice job! Subscribed.
P.S. I flew civilian Herc’s for ten years (Hercumcised).
Thank you! And thanks for the sub! I got a good laugh out of the “Hercumcised” 😂
What? People didn't know this? Nice job explaining it. As a 26 year AMT,/A&P/IA, This is common knowledge. I can't wait to enter the pilot world and debunk these type of "common misconceptions." Nice 4 fan btw, but NKAWTG!
It’s crazy, I know! Yeah, I’d love to see some stuff from an A&P!
Good video and good reasoning.
9:03 - This chart is a graphical representation of two equations.
But that doesn't take away from your point. Equations are tools, and we need to use the right tool for the job.
Thank you so much! Yes, we need to use the tools we have available
I had a cfi teaching me some bush flying in a 1961 182. He was using the manual flaps to tighten turns in level flight following a river. Adding flaps in the turn releasing as the turn rolled level out.
That’s pretty cool! I’ve been getting a lot of crop dusters telling me that they use them for this as well!
I think the next topic should be using minimal flaps during high wind conditions. If you have gusty winds, I was always told never use more than 20 degrees of flaps. This is especially true for those older aircraft that I actually have a setting of 40° flaps. Incidentally, I am kind of a no flap or minimum flap person. I generally like my approach is not so steep, I keep my speed up a little and it saves fuel by not having to drag an airplane in. I also delay using flaps when I’m on an instrument approach and lower them to flaps 10 within 1 mile of the final approach fix. Understandably, larger, faster, airplanes require more usage of flaps, especially when you consider their weight.
I definitely want to discuss that in a future video. I like to challenge myself and land full flaps in high winds, but it really is best to use less flaps in those situations
@@FreePilotTraining I also use/teach full flaps as default on all landings. In strong crosswind, the headwind component and full flaps and a power/pitch approach including deceleration on short final easily allows angling across the runway from the downwind corner to the upwind big airplane touchdown zone marking at 1,000 feet. Using dynamic proactive rudder to hold new centerline and dynamic throttle to hold glide angle exactly to the first foot of the downwind corner and dynamic throttle to control both sink and balloon from gusts will result in touchdown slowly and softly on the exact downwind corner. It drives me crazy to see greater groundspeed on any landing with headwind component than on a no wind landing. Groundspeed on the angle across touchdown is often near zero. Less tin and skin is damaged at 20 knots groundspeed than at 100. How can anyone in a trainer have 100 knots groundspeed in a headwind component?
I've learned a lot on your channel, keep up the good and funny work.
Thanks Steve! Will do!
My knowledge of flaps in a turn:
1. using them above certain speeds can hurt the flaps.
2. they often reduce the AOA abilities of the aircraft but increase the lift for a given AOA.
3. They move the aerodynamic center downwards and toward the aft of the wing, which makes the aircraft more stable in pitch but less stable in roll.
4. For low lift coefficient, they're gonna cause a lot more drag than they're worth.
Excellent video. I have been flying for decades and was always taught to use flaps in the circuit/pattern. There is one other little advantage, if you apply the flaps at the same time as beginning a turn, in most GA types this will produce the usual 'balloon' in pitch, that balloon will in many cases match the increased pitch required to hold altitude in a turn. (Yes I am aware this doesn't apply to some aircraft types with barndoor flaps or types that have a pitch down moment).
Thank you! That is so true! You could intentionally roll them in the turn to keep from ballooning
When first learning in the circuit I was told not to apply the flap during execution of a turn, particularly during base to final. Once I was properly in control of maintaining airspeed during the turn then I was allowed to move from 2 to 3 (C152) while the turn was in progress. Pitch and power still apply. We only have about 450m runway and trees on the way in, so we need that reduced stall speed!
Yeah, that’s a pretty small runway!
All of your videos are thoughtful and informative. All are very well put together.
But this one - the best by far! What a fantastic way to use humour to teach :)
Thanks v v much from Canada.
Thank you so much for that! I love adding those little bits of humor that pop into my head. They make it so much more fun
(Exceptional teaching) = [(Much information) (Correctly presented)^2]
So here’s the correct E = M C^2
:)
I find it hard to believe that anybody who knows how to fly a plane would argue against turning with flaps. It’s actually kinda blowing my mind lol. Excellent video!
Yeah, I know. It blew me away as well
I find that in a 172, if I keep a nice tight lower power decent from downwind, I don't have enough time to wait till I am wings level to drop flaps. When starting with new students I teach a wider pattern and apply flaps in the straightaways so they can see the changes in pitch better, but once they get better and can tighten the pattern up, we start doing them in the turns while managing good airspeed control. In a twin with a wider pattern, I do them in the straights, especially with planes like the twin C that has a pretty good pitch down when going full flaps...
Nice! That makes total sense
I have some doubts about the explanation. First. It may surprise you, but when we are flying at the same speed with or without flaps the lift force is still the same.
Second. For level turn theoretically only two ways to decrease the radius of turn. Speed decreasing or increasing of bank angle (increase a load factor).
In according of your explanation, if during level turn, flaps increases a lift force which increases a horizontal component of the lift, then it must lead to increase a centrifugal force too which will lead to increase a load factor. But it doesn't work like that.
I don’t mind having a disagreement on this, but the airplane flying handbook states that flaps increase lift for a given angle of attack. Drag is also increased, but so is lift. With that in mind, this is a complete theory of mine. As I stated, horizontal lift component apposes load factor, BUT if my theory is correct, load factor IS NOT equal and opposite of horizontal lift because BELOW flaps limiting speed, weight will be greater than the force created by inertia. In my personal opinion, THIS is why maneuvering speed is so important. Load factor is closer to being equal and opposite. Now, if weight is greater than the interia force, WHEN we lower flaps, the horizontal lift component can become greater WITHOUT increasing vertical lift. I’m hoping to prove my theory true in a future video.
@@FreePilotTraining POH says true. But take in mind that when we are flying with the flaps vs without flaps, maintaining same speed, our AoA is less, so lift force still the same.
@@FreePilotTraining www.theairlinepilots.com/forumarchive/principlesofflight/flapcurve.jpg
@@JordiFrio I don’t believe that to be the case. AOA does not change when we lower the flaps. Check out this video: ruclips.net/video/tKNlFJ89wvA/видео.html Start at 5:14. This is where I explain my thoughts on that
@@FreePilotTraining for straight and level flight at same speed AoA will be less with the flaps in compare to without. Remember Sr Newton. Lift is equal to weight for this condition.
My PPL instructor was the “no flaps during turn” type, and as a student it just increased the workload during straight leg portions of the pattern work.
I could see that, but I’d rather you be busy off the perch and turning base than be busy on final trying to get the plane stable
Excellent video, 100% what I was taught.
Thank you so much!
Thanks for the hard work sir 💪🏽
You’re welcome! I’ve been wanting to make this video for a while. Finally got my chance!
Here in the US, not a problem.
Fly outside CONUS and often you have to improvise to stay alive and keep TCAS happy.
Taking off from San Jose to Managua, right turn takes you into fast rising terrain, leave the flaps at 15 and make that easy turn. It was a long time ago and yes, a DC-8-50 Same thing in a C-130 or any airplane, big or small.
Thank you so much again for your another very informative video.I haven’t read this before and never thought from this angle.Thanks for effort you put to make these videos,well done again
Thank you so much!
I thing the actual dangerous thing is to CHANGE the aircraft config in a turn, as it is much harder to control the aircraft speed/AOA/VS in a turn.
So I would argue the opposite. I believe that it’s much easier to handle the initial balloon from the flaps in a turn because you’re using centrifugal force to your advantage instead of forcing the nose down
In theory. However I know several stall/spin accidents originated exactly from extending flaps in a 4th turn. One even was at my home airport.
I guess this might depend on an aircraft, but some flap types (fowler, „crocodile”) would quite rapidly slow the aircraft if power is not added / nose not lowered. If the pilot is not paying attention and looking for the field in the 4th turn, this might indeed not be safe. I personally feel better changing the config in a level flight, when possible.
@@FreePilotTraining What is your opinion on my latest comment?
@@DrzewieckiDesign I would say that it’s important to know your limitations as a pilot. I’m having a hard time believing that someone got task saturated by lowering flaps in the turn. I bet there were some other factors involved
Absolute legend! Love the videos man, keep it up 🙌🏼
Thanks Murray! That means a lot!