i think they shouldve fixed it by removing the water jets and having a 40 minute realtime scene of mario giving himself an enema every time his rectum runs out of water
As a long-time Sunshine defender who's made a whole 30-minute video about it also I had to click on this immediately lmao. And, like, I agree with you! Your points are all solid and well-argued and there's some stuff I've never heard heard before, like the punishing verticality of the levels being a result of FLUDD otherwise making things too easy. That was a super cool point. The only thing is that I definitely disagree about the quality of Mario's movement. I think he's incredibly satisfying to move and can have a lot of fun just aimlessly jumping around Delfino Plaza. But I see why the slipperiness of Mario in this game can be off-putting as well. In general what are for you game-breaking flaws are for me minor imperfections that can be ignored. I don't have much much problem looking past the very real problems, and my absolute favorite parts of the game are to you small footnotes to a mostly negative experience. Idk this game still remains a strong example of how slight differences in taste, perception, and tolerance for bullshit can produce such wildly different opinions, and I'll never get tired of listening to people shit on it even though I know I'll replay it every couple years til I die. (A bit disappointed you didn't circle back to the claim that it would be as remembered as Billy Hatcher without Mario as that was a big claim lol. The art direction alone elevates it above those games imo)
Agreed! I'd dare arguing Mario here is at his finest in terms of movement until Odyssey. He feels sharper and snappier than ever, and I don't think they ever managed to replicate the pleasure that is doing the spinning jumps. This game's biggest sin was relying on fludd as a giant safety net that flatlines any challenge from the platforming. The devs MUST have also know how godawful that was, since they gave us the fluddless levels, which are (imho) where the game is at it's best. (And I suppose you could make the case that a game that is at it's best when it's characteristic gimmick is out of the way is completely backwards in logic)
Sunshine was the first game I ever played on my first console I got as a complete surprise for Christmas. I never even thought to ask for one because I thought it was so expensive. They got it for me because they knew I loved playing video games at my friend’s house. I came back to it a lot growing up and again as an adult when I came home from college on breaks, and again after graduation. There’s no way I’d put that much time into a game throughout my life solely due to its sentimental value, but the sentimental value makes it a video game that will always make me smile when I see people talking about it fondly. Love your passion here
Hi! I immediately clicked on this video with your video in mind. I grew up on this game and watching ur vid really rekindled my appreciation and adoration of Sunshine.
Ovandal: I won't be comparing Sunshine to any of the newer games because those haven't been invented yet. Also Ovandal: Even Galaxy did non-linear progression better!
Since Sunshine is the next game Nintendo will remake, excluding the linearity and MAYBE the lack of blue coin hints, it will be way better. Imagine it was open world, as a test to see if it is worth making an open world Mario game.
In my opinion, the absolute most confusing level in the game is *Secret of the Village Underside…* oh wow this stage. Not only does it completely miss the point of the flood-less stages, but it also is a HUGE slap in the face when considering how much missed potential there was. How it misses the point: The entire point of the FLUDDLESS stages is to test your skill of platforming without FLUDD, so why are we only talking to chucksters to throw us to other platforms, without actually doing any platforming? And that’s not even considering how janky they are, or the fact that when a chuckster throws you WITH FLUDD in other parts of the game, you can’t use FLUDD mid-air. All around, it makes no sense. The Missed Potential: Yoshi is required to access this stage, using his fruit juice ability. WHY WOULDN’T THEY USE HIM AS THE STAGES BASE?! Not only does Yoshi have cool enhancements to Mario’s move-set, his abilities could have also made for a nice change of pace from the other FLUDDLESS stages and a great capper to said stages.
The water mechanism could’ve been used like that one scene from Scooby-Doo 2 where Scooby takes the fire hydrant and used it to turn that liquid based monster into ice and skated on it. I’ve always imagined there could be a game like that where you’d go around collecting water to shoot out and freeze to skate/surf on.
It's probably divided into two overall experiences with the game: Those who only obtained the minimum number of shines to beat the game and left the frustrating ones to rot in hell where they belong... and those of us who have waged war against the definition of "frustration" and won. I must sadly admit I'm one of the few members of the 120-shine club (purely out of commitment to right the wrongs Sunshine plagued my childhood with) and I haven't been the same since. This video resonated with me on a damn-near spiritual level.
@@CrazyBrick30disagree, i didn’t bother going beyond what was necessary to finish sunshine when i first played it in 3d all-stars - mainly because the game frustrated me so goddamn much that by the second shadow mario mission i just tried to get it over with quickly so i could replay galaxy again lol. i cannot begin to understand how people find this game even remotely enjoyable beyond its presentation (which is admittedly very impressive for 2002 standards), the controls are objectively the worst in the entire mario franchise
@@kaphizmey6229 i never had any issues with the controls on the game both GameCube and switch sure there not great but their not horrible i have played games with way worse control schemes
@@kaphizmey6229its just a “childhood typa game”, when everything was new and b4 galaxy. But caveat is compared to most “childhood games” it’s still decently fun(despite its flaws). Nostalgia is bright, hard to dim😂
@@WickedlyChill i understand that, but i still disagree with the idea that sunshine is even “decently fun” - that shit was more like a chore for me, and i was glad to be done with it. fuck whoever designed the movement, controls and physics for that rotten egg of a video game! also, i’ll freely admit i’m biased towards galaxy 1 due to nostalgia, and even then i have no problem admitting its flaws (traveling to different galaxies should have been more streamlined, gravity physics can sometimes get wonky, progression is too linear for some, etc). there are games i played when i was a kid that i KNOW are bad games as an adult, so i also disagree over the idea that nostalgia blinds people to the truth about things they grew up with. _you don’t wanna play the game again, you wanna feel the way you felt when you first played it again._
You've glossed over the movements that combine fludd and Mario in this Game, like for me the movement shines brightest with these in mind, and seeing you not impliment them when talking about the level design makes me feel like we played a diferent Mario sunshine
Having said this, this video also says many points wich are absolutely true AND it's put together very well, enjoyed It a lot and I Hope It preforms amazingly
The argument about "wasting the player's time" is interesting. I've been thinking about this a lot. I think quite often it's not necessarily just about prolonging the experience but also about how the time with the game is not considered valuable by the player in the first place. So any delay or setback is considered as a bad trade. Sunshine was my first Mario 3D game and I love it. Sure I'm not super happy about being sent back to the beginning of a big level when I screw up. But also, I'm having a blast with the game so I don't mind spending time with it. The time doesn't feel wasted. I love the vibes. I like the complicated controls. It feels awesome to me to pull of a tricky jump that involves some weird backwards wall jump into a hover onto a platform. I got the same collection on the Switch recently and I found myself being drawn to Sunshine from all of the three games. Games are weird like that. The perceived value of them can fluctuate wildly. Deal-breakers can flip over into beloved quirks depending on context and overall attitude. Not to take away from your criticism, I think you made your case very well. Just wanted to present an alternate viewpoint. Keep it up, Ovandal. Love your work.
@@ralphiecifaretto8961it is a perfectly fine game though. Great? Maybe not, but you should still play it to see how you feel nowadays instead of saying “no ill hate it”
@@ralphiecifaretto8961You say that like it's objectively a bad game. I've been watching a bunch of videos of people both praising and criticizing the 3D Mario games to the point where I've learned that there's no such thing as objectively good controls or level design. I've even seen comments saying that Super Mario 64 did everything people criticized Donkey Kong 64 for doing, but somehow gave the Mario game a pass. I've seen people arguing that the level design and Mario Odyssey isn't that great outside of New Donk City and that the moons went from a main challenge collectable like stars into busy work ala the blue coins from Sunshine. I've seen people (including this guy in this very video) saying Mario controls the best in 64, which is funny because his controls are objectively janky AF, and we know this because we can literally read the source code and see how janky it is. Inputs are incredibly inconsistent. I saw one guy describe the level design of Mario 64 the same way this guy described the FLUDDless level design. Admittedly, the SM64 hater was talking about them more from a visual standpoint rather than a mechanical standpoint, because the levels in Mario 64 definitely complement his move set very well. At this point, I've seen enough collective thoughts that one could realistically argue that Mario in 3D open levels was NEVER good, and that he was at his best with linearity, like in Galaxy or in 3D world. Not that I personally think this, but yeah. I wouldn't even be surprised if there are videos about how awful the galaxy games and 3D World are, but I already stayed up all night just watching videos on the other games, so I think I'm good. It's really crazy how every single Mario 64 style game is as celebrated as they are criticized. Like, I totally can see why putting 300 moons (mostly in plain sight without any real need for interesting platforming) makes Mario Odyssey a seemingly inferior game to 64 and Sunshine, even though some people would argue that he controls far worse in those two games. I've really learned a lot about game design from watching these videos. They've opened my mind to the fact that there really is no such thing as objectively good controls or level design, And what seems like a slam dunk to some will feel like a mistake to others. Is Mario 64 really the best-controlling 3d Mario game of all time? Or is it the game with the absolutely thickest nostalgia goggles? Honestly, at this point, I'm tempted to say the answer is yes to both.
All the good things about this game feel like drops of water next to the issues the game has. I stuck with Sunshine as a kid because it was exciting to have a jetpack and all, but I haven't had the courage to beat it a second time ever since. Even though I'm much better at Mario games than I was back then and would blow through it's most annoying missions in fewer tries. It's just not that fun.
I did exactly that a few years back and grinded all 120 shines... it's not worth it. I should have left that childhood scar alone, but I picked at it and made it a deeper wound. Kind of like beating up an abuser who's become old and frail over time... it's just not the catharsis you envisioned. (To be clear, I haven't done the latter 😅 but I imagine it would be similar.)
@@deewoodworth5410 Much less skill issue, much more bad game design which Sunshine is riddled with. Let's not try to argue that the pachinko level and the lilipad river level aren't abominations. And no, the fact that you can techinically skip them doesn't make them any better.
I recently got around to playing sunshine in a personal quest to play all* the main mario series, and your advice about only going for main objectives and never side content rings really true. Like, I went through it once, and I was like "Man, all those people on youtube are full of shit, this game's fun as hell, I'm looking forward to 100%" And then I started hunting for blue coins and doing extra shines and.... hoo boy.
Thnaks for putting into words what i couldn't articulate properly about this game. I grew up with 64 and never played sunshine until i was an adult. I was so excited to try it, before turning it off and playing galaxy 2 hours later
This vid was great. I like when you just use absurd memes or the rantsona thing-y (it's in that "oddly appealing high school doodle"-territory to make certain points stick. It also (to me) gives it more of a feel that makes it fun to watch late at night
As a GameCube virgin myself, I can agree the lack of choosing a mission is a hassle. I usually do 5 episodes or 4 to progress but in different levels, it’s a good thing I got into Galaxy’s level and progression style more often. Not to mention those secrets missions are a pain to go through. Moral: if you cater a E rated game to ONLY hardcore gamers, the limitations will be exposed.
I honestly think this game isn't as great as most people remember it being. I played it for the first time as an adult and was not impressed at all. Super jank controls made it a chore to play
This game had so much potential but sadly the production was too rushed and they didn't manage to give the game tye heart and soul it needed...the final boss level says it all. I was so disappointed with this game because I wanted to love it sm but there are just too many flaws.
These criticisms are pretty fair. Personally, not including mods and romhacks, this is my favorite mario game and I 100% it pretty frequently. There's something about the weird, janky level design that's really interesting to me and is fun to mess around in. I think FLUDD adds a level of depth to the movement which makes it engaging and a lot of the annoying bits can be skipped if you know what you are doing (admittedly with glitches and unintended strategies.) I get why people don't like it and there's a lot of wasted time, but something about it feels so different and encapsulating. (That being said, SM64 has better movement, some of if not the best movement in ANY game imo, it's just I don't like the levels very much.)
Mario sunshine is a linear game desguised as a collectothon. Having blue coins in levels does not make it a collectothon as other mario games like galaxy have open levels like beach bowel and galaxy 2 has star medals in the middle of levels. Sunshine is closer to galaxy than it is to 64 if you think about it. The only difference is that Galaxy has better execution im my opionion as it knows what is wants be. I still enjoy Sunshine, but I do not replay it as much as other Mario games.
I wanted to love this game. I tried repeatedly to play it. I just couldn't, and I couldn't pinpoint why. But this video basically sums up everything that left me unimpressed and unable to finish it.
I remember long ago when I first played SMS after it just came out, I wanted so badly for a game that was similar to JUST the secret levels of Sunshine. It wasn’t until I was older that I gained a real appreciation for Sunshine for everything it had to offer. It was surprising to myself after downloading Super Mario 3D Allstars that… I was pretty consistently enjoying Sunshine. Weird how things stay the same, but our experiences can entirely change overtime. When I was a teen, I would have agreed with this video. Now, my opinion has changed dramatically.
even tho, this game is flawed yet nostalgia for me and alot of people were hype since 3D all stars was announced because of sunshine. also, the water visuals is so pretty for a Gamecube game
Sunshine feels like summertime. Mosquito bites and sunburn. But at it's core, I still have fun with it. The soundtrack and fun visuals honestly placebos the pain away for me. It's flawed but not entirely awful.
I used to hate Sunshine as a kid, but once I became a teen and a bit more confident in my abilities, I played and loved everything about Sunshine. But I certainly agree with pretty much everything. I want to draw attention to the point of "not having open level design" more as "Sunshine is a lot more restrictive than 64" as there's so many moving parts to the stages making Sunshine's levels too linear to complete, which is certainly annoying. Good example: secret levels being locked off for no reason (or even made into their own missions), or missions such as the Electric Koopas or Gooper Blooper not being available until their own mission. I'm especially happy about the point that the movement is often too floaty, too quick, and FLUDD was a patch that didn't fix all the level or movement issues. I could go on, but all of this is to say: the game is an experiment, and it certainly has plenty of flaws so I don't fault (and rarely disagree) any other's opinion on it. But I love it, and can certainly appreciate how it laid the groundwork for Odyssey and game evolution in general. Getting rid of lives, making levels full of more interactive/open, and making the moving/changing parts of the levels flow into one another is what Sunshine couldn't do, and which subsequent games learned from. A shame it took Odyssey another 15 years, though.
The amount of red coin missions and goo piranha plant fights is ridiculous. Literally every level has the same missions on repeat, “secret level”, multiple red coin, and Shadow Mario fight. There are unique missions on each level, but there are a lot of red coin missions like Jesus. I also do not like the flud, it was literally made to make 3d platforming more easier for people, I think they should have just made more level to accommodate difficulty rather than add a pretty pointless mechanic to Mario. You can already move Mario mid air while jumping, don’t need a mechanic just for over correcting mistakes.
That’s the correct feeling. Sunshine is ass. Unless you played it as a child or younger person in their early 20s, you are not blinded by nostalgia. It is the worst 3D Mario by a landslide
well, i never grew up with Nintendo home consoles. I could never play 3D Mario games when they came out, so 3D all-stars was perfect for me to finally catch up. 64 felt a little archaic in some areas, but still very well put together and easy to get used to. Galaxy was just well-made in every area. Sunshine... you explained it better, it was just frustrating. The game is wonderful to look at and has some very high highlights, but all the padding and frustrating physics really made me wish to be done with it asap, so i could finally play Galaxy. Sunshine is a good game, but saying it aged poorly would be an understatement
I haven't really played this. Aside from maybe one session at a friends house thinking that it's boring. Thought it's because I was an impatient child and did not understand the intricacy of this classic and that I need to give it another try... someday. Glad to know that there is actually a lot that validates child me's feelings and now I don't have to play this.
There are many people who love this game. One youtube video isn't the supreme authority of whether it's great game. If you like Mario games you will probably like this game. It just has some wonky physics that needs getting used to, but I think calling Sunshine a "bad" game is being very jaded and just dismissing all the good aspects about this game. There is a reason Nintendo brought it back with Galaxy and 64, two legendary games.
@@wiffgunderwanted ooor Mario fans are just as biased as they say sonic fans are and won't accept their 3d games being massively flawed and there being several bad mario games
Something that Sunshine does better with its worlds is that the worlds feel like they have their own story progression. I love how you have to help hatch the Sand Bird, and get to finally see it after entering the remains of its egg. I loved how Noki Bay had a massive pollution problem and you spend half of the levels trying to fix it. I loved how some of the levels are focused on a major problem that Mario has to solve, while others are entirely focused on the things that vacationing tourists could normally expect after coming to the isle. I will concede that there are some things that are buggy/janky as hell, and I was really disappointed that 3D All Stars didn't fix things like the Pachinko level, but I don't find them any less frustrating than trying to move Mario around on those tiny planets, while upside down, with backwards controls, or literally any of the levels that needed you to use the Wii remote to point at the screen.
Generally when I watch these kinds of rant-y videos where someone rips apart a game that I also dislike, I’ll usually have a list of things that I also disagree with despite agreeing with the overall point, but no. You’ve hit the nail on the head so hard that it flew through the other side of the board and hit the neighbors cat. The only thing that I can _maybe_ disagree on is that I personally prefer Odyssey’s movement to 64s, and even then I totally get why you say otherwise. Sunshine is not only the worst 3D Mario, its the worst mainline Mario game period, and I’m tired of people pretending that its this masterpiece based on this twisted sense of openness and movement.
@@Meme_Lorabsolutely, that game was built off of a rock-solid foundation and was supposed to be difficult but fair, whereas sunshine is so janky and broken that it feels like it was designed to be as unfair to the player as possible
21:00 This EXACT thing makes Sunshine teeter on the edge of being a janky mid 2000s Sonic game. It's fucking weird and makes jump planning extremely hard when it really doesn't need to be.
that and the way the game treats slopes, sometimes mario will slide right off a slight incline and sometimes he’ll stand on a near-90 degree angle like a fucking skyrim horse
Good points, but it doesn't make the game trash. In fact it's arguably better than M64 on several aspects. To me the level design is on the contrary one of its strengths. Sure you fall from higher, but thanks to the water spray you move more quickly, especially after unlocking the vertical boost. There are way more level mechanics, often physics-based such as the ropes and yet working surprisingly well. The gameplay is overall way more polished in this game. Even hovering by using the water spray adds a layer of complexity, despite making the distance measurement less tight. And the objectives are way more varied, although admittedly some of them are annoyingly difficult. As for the bosses, they've always been repetitive and uninteresting in the Mario series before Galaxy, but here it was a small step forward. I may be wrong, but I think you would have seen things differently if you hadn't played the Galaxy games before, which are simply masterpieces. Although some people already didn't like it at the time for some of those reasons, so I don't know. Anyway, pretty interesting takes.
The consistent aesthetic of all the levels is really charming to me and I had a lot of fun exploring the world. But my god, there’s so many parts of it that made me want to pull my hair out, and a lot of it is because of janky controls or unnecessarily frustrating level design, and the linear structure prevents you from being able to skip some of them like you would in 64 or Odyssey. It’s just such a game killer, by the end of it I was holding so much resentment towards the game. Def the weakest of the 3D games.
I heard people dump on this game, but having grown up with a ps2, not a GameCube, I thought they were exaggerating. After all, 64 was amazing, Galaxy was top notch. So I got it on GameCube and boy… This is without a doubt the worst Mario game I’ve ever played. It’s absolutely horrible. In fact, the only thing it gets right is the atmosphere. That’s it. The concept is pretty fun and all, but the controls are a HUGE problem. I don’t even want to get into the flood less stages. Rubbish
@@Usagizaka46 why still play if its "horrible"? You can believe what you want, but the fact is you cant enjoy the game because you lack the skill to do so
This game is better than 64. There I said it, it's true. 64 is an awkward mess with bad camera controls and most of the levels are generic and uninspired.
this game was the worst, it was just annoying and hard, I know that hard games are normal and I love them but this one was just hard because of how not consistent it is and doesn’t really give you a good direction where to go, mario 64 perfected this by letting you collect almost any star in any level in whatever order but sunshine is such a setback by giving you no real hint other than the name hint and making you do every episode in order
I don't *hate* Mario Sunshine, but that's 10,000% only because of Super Mario Sunburn (A rom hack, I recommend anyone reading this google it, it's pretty cool), and really only because of one thing: The stupid idiotic stupid dumb way you unlock Corona Mountain. Who the actual hell thought it was okay to make it "do every shadow mario stage in each world" and not 70/80 shines like in the other 3D Mario games?? It singlehandedly makes me not ever want to play it because I know every shine besides the 7th one and *every* secret stage is completely pointless (I'm particularly salty about this because on my first playthrough I spent hours doing the pachinko stage before realizing it doesn't affect anything). In Sunburn it's 70 shines. Thank god. I still agree with a lot of your points but at the very least that's not a problem anymore
It's not that it's hard. It's that it's BULLSHIT hard. Some levels you have to platform with bad controls and no FLUDD and that gimmick is also underpowered as hell. Super Mario Bros. Lost Levels is bullshit too but at least it's fun bullshit.
You don't have to wait for the Boats if you need to go into the Pachinko level; if you're good enough, you just need to use a Hover Nozzle from the sides and ground pound, saves so much time. Stuff like this is why I love this game, you start seeing more and more shortcuts the more you master it, FLUDD is not handicapping Mario so to say, it adds something to it as you can do some crazy stunts, I love that.
I saw a pretty good breakdown on this game that explained how doing the shines in the order you're forced to allows the levels to naturally evolve in a way that you wouldn't be able to see otherwise. Not just in terms of level design, but also the people that inhabit this world. Alternatively, I haven't played the game yet, but the way they presented it made so much sense that I can't help but feel like I don't want to play it the fixed way that Sunburn does by shoving as many shines into the same episodes.
@@kaphizmey6229 In Mario 64, the fact that Mario cannot turn directly backwards and instead runs in a half circle is a major flaw. Also he can’t slide down walls and bounces off of them like a beach ball. The fixed both of these in Sunshine.
Once in the shine were you battle the piranha pianta for the second time in bianco hills, a goop spawned out of nowhere meters before the shine and I was 1 hit away from death. Guess what, that little shit killed me without prior warning and had to do it all over again
im glad that as the wii generation is starting to become adults they have started calling out the flaws of the gamecube and its games despite their endless praise online. the same thing happened when the gamecube generation grew up and started pointing out how a lot of N64 games werent as good as people say, and in a decade or so the wii u generation will likely start calling out the wii games that are now getting attention.
yes im referring more to the narrative as a whole. for about 10 years people who grew up with gamecube have been making most of the video game content (scott the woz for example) whereas people who grew up with the wii are now starting to become adults and make videos and likely are a fair amount of viewers on this video. people who have only played galaxy and heard for a long time how sunshine was some hidden masterpiece, then play it only to be disappointed
@@noizu0311as someone whose first 3d mario was galaxy, i feel so seen by your comment! tbf there were plenty of issues with the wii, but i just don’t get how people love the gamecube when its controller is by far the worst in the post-dualshock gaming era and its most notable games are unappealing experiments (i think the n64 was ok, though i can see how people think it’s weird and archaic by today’s standards)
You wii kids are just to used to games your holding hand. No opportunity to get better. (I got a wii when I was 10, so I was technically a wii kid myself lol)
@@NoQuittingPls if you were also a wii kid, then you have no right to criticize us in the first place about “games holding hand” (seriously, learn proper grammar before you come at someone)
Liked and subscribed. Amazingly written, no stupid jokes or obvious contrarian opinions, well thought out points that sound more like constructive criticism rather than petty complaints, and all of it coming from an objective point of view.
Woah woah I know some levels made me rage so hard I called Mario some words I won’t repeat here, but Sunshine is amazing Edit: After watching the video i gotta say my rose tinted glass have come off holy shit this game stole so much time from me :( but i don’t regret it hahaha
It's good peak Mario, y'all gotta stop complaining it has some glitches and stuff. Dark souls 1 has a lot of glitches unfinished areas but people still call it a masterpiece. With the hardware Nintendo had and resources at the time super Mario Sunshine was fantastic. People gotta stop comparing the polish of the game like Odyssey but the unique mechanics introduced in sunshine gave a backbone for so many games after. So please stop hating my favorite game so much.
I agree with some of the criticisms of SMS but because I grew up playing this game I have a bit of a bias and I want these ideas to be further explored; for example I don't think you even touched on how limiting the spin jump is when it comes to positioning Mario in the air or how you can skip some Shines (Maybe not worth mentioning?? I have no idea), I opened up SMS on Dolphin to test out you're criticisms and I see where you are coming from and I've encountered times where Mario does feel a little bit more slippery but I feel like I've played this game long enough to know when to stop near a ledge but small thin platforms feel awkward to briefly traverse sometimes so I see that "greasy movement" critique. (9:55) What do you do when the player is comfortable with the hover ability? I'd say encourage the player to break the level like in Bianco Hills where you can skip Shine 1 and wall jump off certain segments of the windmill to get to the 2nd Shine quicker. Wall jump into hover to reach that one goodie you couldn't get, time attack mode, Shadow Mario could give a demonstration to the player organically while you are chasing him if he had some sort of similar ink jet-pack to Mario; this is from me getting ideas from games like Cruelty Squad where it lets you break the game however you like but also gives you a rank for how fast you complete the mission. My ideas are too long winded to share in a comment section where nobody would probably care but I feel like this video could have done a bit better or provided more solutions to problems while working within the frame work of SM64 and SMS, like you never really said anything about possible unlockables, how severely under utilized the Jet Nozzle is, or how the levels could be built more around this weird movement to compensate for the weird tractionless Mario or tweak it to be more akin to Super Meat Boy but 3D but then you'd have to make the level around that movement system and that game didn't exist during that time so uuh who give a fuck I guess.... I really like this video due to it opening more possibilities for solutions to the problems you point out and the ideas I presented probably work better somewhere else with more polish that isn't Mario, I hope I said anything of value that's better than "lol ur vid bad."
There're are honestly so many moments with weird glitches. The character moved over to the top of a tree in a star cutscene, and a mushroom was all of a sudden placed wrongly in a secret level. And the water lilies 😭
Movement has pretty much the same problem Melee does: clunky and dumb, really slippery, unless you wanna put in the time and effort for better movement. Spinjumping in this game sucks, until you learn to do the Buffered ones. Dive recovers for speed feel worse than in 64... Until you learn how to Waterslide. Mario is slippery in Sunshine, but as a person who has played 64 and Sunshine for the first time this year (going for 120 shines currently), I think it took me longer to control Mario in the former than in the latter. I am just used to the slipperiness because I play platformer games, and oh boy is Bandage Girl slippery. It's just a matter of gauging, and FLUDD is a great mechanic even if too over-used. I had more fun skipping over the Hover Nozzle, true, but the sideflip into hover to skip many platforming sections is really satisfying, more when you discover it by yourself. In short, I would say that Mario is slippery, but is a lot more rewarding to learn how to control him here than in 64. It's just in another plane. As for the rest, yeah, Sunshine's not perfect. 64 has Lethal Lava Land, Rainbow Ride, Wet Dry World and Shifting Sand Land to name a few annoying levels. Sure, Sunshine's may be more bothersome and linear, but they didn't kill me unfairly 90% of the time. They were my own mistakes, in 64 I felt like I was being cheated. And until Render96 released I just could not play, I needed the analog camera because my god does it kill the game hard-- Edit: After one month of on and off play, I got 120 Shines on Sunshine! The hardest shines for me, the only ones where I've Game Overed, are Ricco 2 (didn't know squids had different handling, I just kept picking the pink one until I used the green one by accident. This is the shine that killed me the most), Bianco 3 Red Coins (I legit died so many times in this), Sirena 6 (I got close with spin spraying, but I got told how to spam spray) and the Final Boss Fight (because playing with 60 FPS patch on Dolphin will crash the game). I also learnt the map shows you how many Blue Coins you've collected in a stage, so that's wonderful. The rest of the game was not that hard. I died thrice in Pachinko due to not using the Rocket Nozzle properly, twice in Chucksters (and none on secret Chucksters) because I quickly understood how to shoot in a straight line (align spray Fludd's head to their noses) and nine times in Lillypad (I kept picking up the 1-UP, and I cheesed it by picking up 6 red coins, getting to the end, walking on the side for the 7th coin in the air using the Hover Nozzle, landed, and came back to the end).
I’m only watching this because super Mario sunshine is my favorite game of all time and need to wrap my head around why people hate it once and for all
One thing I dont think anyone in their right mind van argue against. Sunshine still to this day has the best controls of any mario game period, if not any platformer. Even mario odyssey doesnt come close to matching how good movement feels in this game.
@@orange_turtle3412except that no control system which demands such hair-splitting precision to begin with is good, sunshine has godawful handling thanks to the janky physics (and excessively tight platforms in some areas)
@@kaphizmey6229 It takes getting used to. And some of the collision geometry is admittedly awful. But when the game works as intended, its easily the best controls in the series.
So, I absolutely love this game. I grew up on it. I come back to this game quite frequently, and that's been going on for a good 20 years now. I think because I got this game as a kid at release, the controls, physics and glitches are all suoernormal to me, and I've adjusted to them all those years ago. Now as an adult I use all the exploits, Mario's movement and all tricks in the book to beat the game. I think I can 100% the game in about 12 hours now (nowhere near the WR tho!). I think I've 100 percented the game about 15 to 20 times in all those years. I love it. I think the fact that this was my favorite game as a kid really helps me to enjoy the game, whereas others maybe don't. Maybe it's just me. But I wanted to explain my side a little bit, as an absolute Mario Sunshine lover.
sunshine is my favorite 3d mario game... but ff8 is my absolute favorite final fantasy game (followed closely by 15), so i'm willing to accept that my brain is just bunkum
i was streaming all the marios and uploading the vods to youtube, when i reached this i played 2 hours and killed all my motivation, even after 25+ years, mario 64, mario rpg, even old marios are fun to play, this game though.... absolute garbage, it feels like i'm doing homework, also there is no motivation or goal, some jackass ruined an island and I HAVE TO CLEAN UP HIS MESS? wtf, there is no reward, no motivation, i could just leave and go to a different vacation, also... i just feel like a janitor fking cleaning everywhere around, no fun, no meaning, just cleaning around. I hated this game, and i usually like even bad games
For some reason I love this game. The atmosphere is unlike any other in the franchise, it wasn’t afraid to beat the living shit out of you, and the graphics were pretty alright for the time. But most of all this game dared to take risks and be unique, and that’s something at least I can respect.
This game was rushed, it was supposed to be a launch title for the Gamecube, but it wasn't ready yet, so they had to delay the game for a whole another until the game was at least playable before shipping it, I really wish 3D All Stars would have fixed all the bugs and glitches
There is one thing that makes me very mad about this game: They could have fixed the controls and Blue coins with the 3D All Stars Version, but they didn’t
couldn't agree more with all of the points that you made. this game made me dislike the mario franchise for the first time ever, until i convinced myself that nintendo released a troll under the guise of a mario game, and from that perspective, i made peace with its existence, got 120 shines and won't ever play it again.
yeah, that game is goated. and it’s designed to be taken at a slower pace, so i don’t feel like it “wastes the player’s time” like sunshine does at some points
Honestly, I have to agree to... This was a low cow series I like from Mario. But was it too bad? Yes and No. I can't decide because it has SOME people who likes the game as well. I didn't enjoy the game that much cause I had frustration on some levels and bosses I had to go through probably like 3 times or more to try to beat it... But I halfway like some of it stuff it had compare from many other Mario games out there. Still, Mario is still going fresh this way further ways since then and he's not slowing down.
For me this was the 1st ever Mario game I played as a kid back in 2006, and it was not till 2 years ago that I was able to end this game completely. I have to admit that it was kinda fun to play, but there were some days in which I got stuck for hours in a simple level and got very frustated (after that frustation, my medicine was playing Need For Speed Most Wanted for GameCube, so I could drive reckless after that infuriating Mario experience XD). I still have my GameCube and this game, and the thing I most enjoy are the graphics and sound. I share a lot of your complainings, but at the same time this game have an special place in my heart xd.
My fondest memory of this game is being drenched in sweat, teary eyed and starting to pray to god as a relatively non religious 7 years old because of that red coin collecting episode in the harbour stage.
I don't hate Mario Sunshine, it's just that I'm a completionist, and because the blue coins suck @#$!, I just opt out of playing the game. I completed it one time when it first came out and remember thinking "welp, that sucked" lol. If they added two or three more worlds to the game and removed the blue coins (basically, if the game wasnt rushed), I would've enjoyed it a lot more.
100% agree with you and didn’t even finish to watch the video. i’m trying to finish the game, right now i have 66 sunshines but i can’t figure out how to get to the final boss lol
i think they shouldve fixed it by removing the water jets and having a 40 minute realtime scene of mario giving himself an enema every time his rectum runs out of water
I wouldn't put it past _Super Mario-kun_ to do that as a gag 🤔
This comment was so fucking horrible it made me subscribe
It would have made for a far more pleasant and far less painful experience for both us and Mario.
Dude, Mario must be really bad at putting in an enema. SMH, more bad Nintendo game design, tut tut.
I agree but instead my ass
“Collision isn’t real. Just because something looks physical doesn’t mean it is.”
-Super Mario Sunshine
Criticizing Mario is dangerously Bowser-coded :/ ...Good video even if it made me more evil
As a long-time Sunshine defender who's made a whole 30-minute video about it also I had to click on this immediately lmao. And, like, I agree with you! Your points are all solid and well-argued and there's some stuff I've never heard heard before, like the punishing verticality of the levels being a result of FLUDD otherwise making things too easy. That was a super cool point. The only thing is that I definitely disagree about the quality of Mario's movement. I think he's incredibly satisfying to move and can have a lot of fun just aimlessly jumping around Delfino Plaza. But I see why the slipperiness of Mario in this game can be off-putting as well.
In general what are for you game-breaking flaws are for me minor imperfections that can be ignored. I don't have much much problem looking past the very real problems, and my absolute favorite parts of the game are to you small footnotes to a mostly negative experience. Idk this game still remains a strong example of how slight differences in taste, perception, and tolerance for bullshit can produce such wildly different opinions, and I'll never get tired of listening to people shit on it even though I know I'll replay it every couple years til I die.
(A bit disappointed you didn't circle back to the claim that it would be as remembered as Billy Hatcher without Mario as that was a big claim lol. The art direction alone elevates it above those games imo)
Agreed! I'd dare arguing Mario here is at his finest in terms of movement until Odyssey. He feels sharper and snappier than ever, and I don't think they ever managed to replicate the pleasure that is doing the spinning jumps.
This game's biggest sin was relying on fludd as a giant safety net that flatlines any challenge from the platforming. The devs MUST have also know how godawful that was, since they gave us the fluddless levels, which are (imho) where the game is at it's best. (And I suppose you could make the case that a game that is at it's best when it's characteristic gimmick is out of the way is completely backwards in logic)
well said
So everyone agrees this game would’ve been down there with Tak and the power of Juju if it weren’t Mario? Good👍
Sunshine was the first game I ever played on my first console I got as a complete surprise for Christmas. I never even thought to ask for one because I thought it was so expensive. They got it for me because they knew I loved playing video games at my friend’s house. I came back to it a lot growing up and again as an adult when I came home from college on breaks, and again after graduation. There’s no way I’d put that much time into a game throughout my life solely due to its sentimental value, but the sentimental value makes it a video game that will always make me smile when I see people talking about it fondly. Love your passion here
Hi! I immediately clicked on this video with your video in mind. I grew up on this game and watching ur vid really rekindled my appreciation and adoration of Sunshine.
Ovandal: I won't be comparing Sunshine to any of the newer games because those haven't been invented yet.
Also Ovandal: Even Galaxy did non-linear progression better!
Pretty sure the reason that was brought up is because Nintendo classified Galaxy as a linear game and Sunshine as a non linear game
He didn't say he wasn't going to, he said less so
I played 64 and odyssey before sunshine, and MAN that game was clanky and unpleasant to play
Since Sunshine is the next game Nintendo will remake, excluding the linearity and MAYBE the lack of blue coin hints, it will be way better. Imagine it was open world, as a test to see if it is worth making an open world Mario game.
In my opinion, the absolute most confusing level in the game is *Secret of the Village Underside…* oh wow this stage. Not only does it completely miss the point of the flood-less stages, but it also is a HUGE slap in the face when considering how much missed potential there was.
How it misses the point: The entire point of the FLUDDLESS stages is to test your skill of platforming without FLUDD, so why are we only talking to chucksters to throw us to other platforms, without actually doing any platforming? And that’s not even considering how janky they are, or the fact that when a chuckster throws you WITH FLUDD in other parts of the game, you can’t use FLUDD mid-air. All around, it makes no sense.
The Missed Potential: Yoshi is required to access this stage, using his fruit juice ability. WHY WOULDN’T THEY USE HIM AS THE STAGES BASE?! Not only does Yoshi have cool enhancements to Mario’s move-set, his abilities could have also made for a nice change of pace from the other FLUDDLESS stages and a great capper to said stages.
Don't say stupid things.
Disagree
The water mechanism could’ve been used like that one scene from Scooby-Doo 2 where Scooby takes the fire hydrant and used it to turn that liquid based monster into ice and skated on it. I’ve always imagined there could be a game like that where you’d go around collecting water to shoot out and freeze to skate/surf on.
Frozone the game
That's kind of Splatoon, isn't it?
i love how vigorously divided the opinion is on super mario sunshine
It's probably divided into two overall experiences with the game: Those who only obtained the minimum number of shines to beat the game and left the frustrating ones to rot in hell where they belong... and those of us who have waged war against the definition of "frustration" and won. I must sadly admit I'm one of the few members of the 120-shine club (purely out of commitment to right the wrongs Sunshine plagued my childhood with) and I haven't been the same since. This video resonated with me on a damn-near spiritual level.
@@CrazyBrick30disagree, i didn’t bother going beyond what was necessary to finish sunshine when i first played it in 3d all-stars - mainly because the game frustrated me so goddamn much that by the second shadow mario mission i just tried to get it over with quickly so i could replay galaxy again lol. i cannot begin to understand how people find this game even remotely enjoyable beyond its presentation (which is admittedly very impressive for 2002 standards), the controls are objectively the worst in the entire mario franchise
@@kaphizmey6229 i never had any issues with the controls on the game both GameCube and switch sure there not great but their not horrible i have played games with way worse control schemes
@@kaphizmey6229its just a “childhood typa game”, when everything was new and b4 galaxy. But caveat is compared to most “childhood games” it’s still decently fun(despite its flaws). Nostalgia is bright, hard to dim😂
@@WickedlyChill i understand that, but i still disagree with the idea that sunshine is even “decently fun” - that shit was more like a chore for me, and i was glad to be done with it. fuck whoever designed the movement, controls and physics for that rotten egg of a video game!
also, i’ll freely admit i’m biased towards galaxy 1 due to nostalgia, and even then i have no problem admitting its flaws (traveling to different galaxies should have been more streamlined, gravity physics can sometimes get wonky, progression is too linear for some, etc). there are games i played when i was a kid that i KNOW are bad games as an adult, so i also disagree over the idea that nostalgia blinds people to the truth about things they grew up with. _you don’t wanna play the game again, you wanna feel the way you felt when you first played it again._
You've glossed over the movements that combine fludd and Mario in this Game, like for me the movement shines brightest with these in mind, and seeing you not impliment them when talking about the level design makes me feel like we played a diferent Mario sunshine
Having said this, this video also says many points wich are absolutely true AND it's put together very well, enjoyed It a lot and I Hope It preforms amazingly
The argument about "wasting the player's time" is interesting. I've been thinking about this a lot. I think quite often it's not necessarily just about prolonging the experience but also about how the time with the game is not considered valuable by the player in the first place. So any delay or setback is considered as a bad trade. Sunshine was my first Mario 3D game and I love it. Sure I'm not super happy about being sent back to the beginning of a big level when I screw up. But also, I'm having a blast with the game so I don't mind spending time with it. The time doesn't feel wasted. I love the vibes. I like the complicated controls. It feels awesome to me to pull of a tricky jump that involves some weird backwards wall jump into a hover onto a platform. I got the same collection on the Switch recently and I found myself being drawn to Sunshine from all of the three games. Games are weird like that. The perceived value of them can fluctuate wildly. Deal-breakers can flip over into beloved quirks depending on context and overall attitude. Not to take away from your criticism, I think you made your case very well. Just wanted to present an alternate viewpoint. Keep it up, Ovandal. Love your work.
Sunshine is one of those games where I look back on playing it as a child warmly, but have no desire to play it again because I know I'll hate it lmao
Thank you for being honest! I've seen too many people dating that this game was their childhood and refuse to accept it's not a great game.
@@ralphiecifaretto8961it is a perfectly fine game though. Great? Maybe not, but you should still play it to see how you feel nowadays instead of saying “no ill hate it”
@@ralphiecifaretto8961You say that like it's objectively a bad game. I've been watching a bunch of videos of people both praising and criticizing the 3D Mario games to the point where I've learned that there's no such thing as objectively good controls or level design. I've even seen comments saying that Super Mario 64 did everything people criticized Donkey Kong 64 for doing, but somehow gave the Mario game a pass. I've seen people arguing that the level design and Mario Odyssey isn't that great outside of New Donk City and that the moons went from a main challenge collectable like stars into busy work ala the blue coins from Sunshine. I've seen people (including this guy in this very video) saying Mario controls the best in 64, which is funny because his controls are objectively janky AF, and we know this because we can literally read the source code and see how janky it is. Inputs are incredibly inconsistent. I saw one guy describe the level design of Mario 64 the same way this guy described the FLUDDless level design. Admittedly, the SM64 hater was talking about them more from a visual standpoint rather than a mechanical standpoint, because the levels in Mario 64 definitely complement his move set very well.
At this point, I've seen enough collective thoughts that one could realistically argue that Mario in 3D open levels was NEVER good, and that he was at his best with linearity, like in Galaxy or in 3D world. Not that I personally think this, but yeah. I wouldn't even be surprised if there are videos about how awful the galaxy games and 3D World are, but I already stayed up all night just watching videos on the other games, so I think I'm good.
It's really crazy how every single Mario 64 style game is as celebrated as they are criticized. Like, I totally can see why putting 300 moons (mostly in plain sight without any real need for interesting platforming) makes Mario Odyssey a seemingly inferior game to 64 and Sunshine, even though some people would argue that he controls far worse in those two games. I've really learned a lot about game design from watching these videos. They've opened my mind to the fact that there really is no such thing as objectively good controls or level design, And what seems like a slam dunk to some will feel like a mistake to others. Is Mario 64 really the best-controlling 3d Mario game of all time? Or is it the game with the absolutely thickest nostalgia goggles? Honestly, at this point, I'm tempted to say the answer is yes to both.
@@ralphiecifaretto8961 It is a great game, despite it's flaws
All the good things about this game feel like drops of water next to the issues the game has. I stuck with Sunshine as a kid because it was exciting to have a jetpack and all, but I haven't had the courage to beat it a second time ever since. Even though I'm much better at Mario games than I was back then and would blow through it's most annoying missions in fewer tries. It's just not that fun.
I did exactly that a few years back and grinded all 120 shines... it's not worth it. I should have left that childhood scar alone, but I picked at it and made it a deeper wound. Kind of like beating up an abuser who's become old and frail over time... it's just not the catharsis you envisioned. (To be clear, I haven't done the latter 😅 but I imagine it would be similar.)
I didn't expect people to hate this game so much lol
Me neither
I'm trying to look for good critiques but it really just does seem to be puritan skill issue whiners who played 64 first
@@deewoodworth5410 Much less skill issue, much more bad game design which Sunshine is riddled with. Let's not try to argue that the pachinko level and the lilipad river level aren't abominations. And no, the fact that you can techinically skip them doesn't make them any better.
I recently got around to playing sunshine in a personal quest to play all* the main mario series, and your advice about only going for main objectives and never side content rings really true.
Like, I went through it once, and I was like "Man, all those people on youtube are full of shit, this game's fun as hell, I'm looking forward to 100%"
And then I started hunting for blue coins and doing extra shines and.... hoo boy.
Thnaks for putting into words what i couldn't articulate properly about this game. I grew up with 64 and never played sunshine until i was an adult. I was so excited to try it, before turning it off and playing galaxy 2 hours later
This vid was great. I like when you just use absurd memes or the rantsona thing-y (it's in that "oddly appealing high school doodle"-territory to make certain points stick. It also (to me) gives it more of a feel that makes it fun to watch late at night
As a GameCube virgin myself, I can agree the lack of choosing a mission is a hassle. I usually do 5 episodes or 4 to progress but in different levels, it’s a good thing I got into Galaxy’s level and progression style more often. Not to mention those secrets missions are a pain to go through.
Moral: if you cater a E rated game to ONLY hardcore gamers, the limitations will be exposed.
why'd you gotta bring billy hatcher into this...
I honestly think this game isn't as great as most people remember it being. I played it for the first time as an adult and was not impressed at all. Super jank controls made it a chore to play
This game had so much potential but sadly the production was too rushed and they didn't manage to give the game tye heart and soul it needed...the final boss level says it all. I was so disappointed with this game because I wanted to love it sm but there are just too many flaws.
Don't say stupid things.
@@scottchaison1001 well your comment is just that
@@lisapierzyna2073 lol you wrecked him 😂
These criticisms are pretty fair. Personally, not including mods and romhacks, this is my favorite mario game and I 100% it pretty frequently. There's something about the weird, janky level design that's really interesting to me and is fun to mess around in. I think FLUDD adds a level of depth to the movement which makes it engaging and a lot of the annoying bits can be skipped if you know what you are doing (admittedly with glitches and unintended strategies.) I get why people don't like it and there's a lot of wasted time, but something about it feels so different and encapsulating. (That being said, SM64 has better movement, some of if not the best movement in ANY game imo, it's just I don't like the levels very much.)
As much as a I like this game, it has a lot of problems, and I agree with you!
Mario sunshine is a linear game desguised as a collectothon. Having blue coins in levels does not make it a collectothon as other mario games like galaxy have open levels like beach bowel and galaxy 2 has star medals in the middle of levels. Sunshine is closer to galaxy than it is to 64 if you think about it. The only difference is that Galaxy has better execution im my opionion as it knows what is wants be. I still enjoy Sunshine, but I do not replay it as much as other Mario games.
I wanted to love this game. I tried repeatedly to play it. I just couldn't, and I couldn't pinpoint why. But this video basically sums up everything that left me unimpressed and unable to finish it.
I remember long ago when I first played SMS after it just came out, I wanted so badly for a game that was similar to JUST the secret levels of Sunshine.
It wasn’t until I was older that I gained a real appreciation for Sunshine for everything it had to offer. It was surprising to myself after downloading Super Mario 3D Allstars that… I was pretty consistently enjoying Sunshine.
Weird how things stay the same, but our experiences can entirely change overtime. When I was a teen, I would have agreed with this video. Now, my opinion has changed dramatically.
even tho, this game is flawed yet nostalgia for me and alot of people were hype since 3D all stars was announced because of sunshine.
also, the water visuals is so pretty for a Gamecube game
this game irritates me to no end, good video. keep being a hater
"keep being a hater" Aye aye captain right away madam 😤
Its okay to be a casual gamer..
Sunshine feels like summertime. Mosquito bites and sunburn. But at it's core, I still have fun with it. The soundtrack and fun visuals honestly placebos the pain away for me. It's flawed but not entirely awful.
I used to hate Sunshine as a kid, but once I became a teen and a bit more confident in my abilities, I played and loved everything about Sunshine. But I certainly agree with pretty much everything.
I want to draw attention to the point of "not having open level design" more as "Sunshine is a lot more restrictive than 64" as there's so many moving parts to the stages making Sunshine's levels too linear to complete, which is certainly annoying. Good example: secret levels being locked off for no reason (or even made into their own missions), or missions such as the Electric Koopas or Gooper Blooper not being available until their own mission.
I'm especially happy about the point that the movement is often too floaty, too quick, and FLUDD was a patch that didn't fix all the level or movement issues.
I could go on, but all of this is to say: the game is an experiment, and it certainly has plenty of flaws so I don't fault (and rarely disagree) any other's opinion on it.
But I love it, and can certainly appreciate how it laid the groundwork for Odyssey and game evolution in general.
Getting rid of lives, making levels full of more interactive/open, and making the moving/changing parts of the levels flow into one another is what Sunshine couldn't do, and which subsequent games learned from. A shame it took Odyssey another 15 years, though.
The amount of red coin missions and goo piranha plant fights is ridiculous. Literally every level has the same missions on repeat, “secret level”, multiple red coin, and Shadow Mario fight. There are unique missions on each level, but there are a lot of red coin missions like Jesus. I also do not like the flud, it was literally made to make 3d platforming more easier for people, I think they should have just made more level to accommodate difficulty rather than add a pretty pointless mechanic to Mario. You can already move Mario mid air while jumping, don’t need a mechanic just for over correcting mistakes.
It's certainly no Sonic Heroes :)
Personally I fucking love this game
Same, it’s incredible!
aye right doubt either of youse have fully completed it 100 percent ive done it twice its a 6/10 at best and is glitchy and rushed feeling as fuck
I 100%ed this game in the recent switch collection and I could say with absolute certainty you are correct. An absolute mess.
When 3D All Stars came out I played Mario 64 for the first time and genuinely loved it. And when I played Sunshine it felt worse in every way somehow.
That’s the correct feeling. Sunshine is ass. Unless you played it as a child or younger person in their early 20s, you are not blinded by nostalgia. It is the worst 3D Mario by a landslide
@@kyledodson2992 My first game i've ever played is Mario 64. Sunshine's movement blows it outta the water. Skill issue
@NoQuittingPls Sunshine's movement is bad. Stop denying it
@@NoQuittingPls You're entitled to your opinion, but I think we all know that your opinion is in the minority.
@@derekrequiem4359 Its not an opinion. Skill issue
Yes absolutely ovandal your game opinions are correct as always and never, ever misinformed.
Liked and subscribed with notifications on
Turns out that after the Persona video, you've become one of my "fuck yeah, a new video, gotta watch this right away" channels.
well, i never grew up with Nintendo home consoles. I could never play 3D Mario games when they came out, so 3D all-stars was perfect for me to finally catch up.
64 felt a little archaic in some areas, but still very well put together and easy to get used to.
Galaxy was just well-made in every area.
Sunshine... you explained it better, it was just frustrating.
The game is wonderful to look at and has some very high highlights, but all the padding and frustrating physics really made me wish to be done with it asap, so i could finally play Galaxy.
Sunshine is a good game, but saying it aged poorly would be an understatement
I haven't really played this. Aside from maybe one session at a friends house thinking that it's boring.
Thought it's because I was an impatient child and did not understand the intricacy of this classic and that I need to give it another try... someday.
Glad to know that there is actually a lot that validates child me's feelings and now I don't have to play this.
There are many people who love this game. One youtube video isn't the supreme authority of whether it's great game. If you like Mario games you will probably like this game. It just has some wonky physics that needs getting used to, but I think calling Sunshine a "bad" game is being very jaded and just dismissing all the good aspects about this game. There is a reason Nintendo brought it back with Galaxy and 64, two legendary games.
@@wiffgunderwanted ooor Mario fans are just as biased as they say sonic fans are and won't accept their 3d games being massively flawed and there being several bad mario games
I am totally in disagree with this video.
Then you are nostalgia blind 💀
@@Rad0115Not at all. Maybe some people just know how to enjoy it and don’t suck at playing difficult games
Its an opinion
@@Rad0115 It's almost like people have different opinions! Crazy, right? 🤯🤯
@@derekrequiem4359 Haha, tell me about it 👍🏻😂
Something that Sunshine does better with its worlds is that the worlds feel like they have their own story progression.
I love how you have to help hatch the Sand Bird, and get to finally see it after entering the remains of its egg. I loved how Noki Bay had a massive pollution problem and you spend half of the levels trying to fix it. I loved how some of the levels are focused on a major problem that Mario has to solve, while others are entirely focused on the things that vacationing tourists could normally expect after coming to the isle.
I will concede that there are some things that are buggy/janky as hell, and I was really disappointed that 3D All Stars didn't fix things like the Pachinko level, but I don't find them any less frustrating than trying to move Mario around on those tiny planets, while upside down, with backwards controls, or literally any of the levels that needed you to use the Wii remote to point at the screen.
Generally when I watch these kinds of rant-y videos where someone rips apart a game that I also dislike, I’ll usually have a list of things that I also disagree with despite agreeing with the overall point, but no. You’ve hit the nail on the head so hard that it flew through the other side of the board and hit the neighbors cat. The only thing that I can _maybe_ disagree on is that I personally prefer Odyssey’s movement to 64s, and even then I totally get why you say otherwise.
Sunshine is not only the worst 3D Mario, its the worst mainline Mario game period, and I’m tired of people pretending that its this masterpiece based on this twisted sense of openness and movement.
Worse than Mario 2 Japan
@@Meme_Lorabsolutely, that game was built off of a rock-solid foundation and was supposed to be difficult but fair, whereas sunshine is so janky and broken that it feels like it was designed to be as unfair to the player as possible
21:00 This EXACT thing makes Sunshine teeter on the edge of being a janky mid 2000s Sonic game. It's fucking weird and makes jump planning extremely hard when it really doesn't need to be.
that and the way the game treats slopes, sometimes mario will slide right off a slight incline and sometimes he’ll stand on a near-90 degree angle like a fucking skyrim horse
Skill issue lol
@@NoQuittingPls toxicity issue
@@kaphizmey6229 If you know how to play the game properly his argument falls flat on its face. So yes, its a skill issue
A pyramid was a good choice because it's tall, boring, generic, & awkward to stand on.
Good points, but it doesn't make the game trash. In fact it's arguably better than M64 on several aspects. To me the level design is on the contrary one of its strengths. Sure you fall from higher, but thanks to the water spray you move more quickly, especially after unlocking the vertical boost. There are way more level mechanics, often physics-based such as the ropes and yet working surprisingly well. The gameplay is overall way more polished in this game. Even hovering by using the water spray adds a layer of complexity, despite making the distance measurement less tight. And the objectives are way more varied, although admittedly some of them are annoyingly difficult. As for the bosses, they've always been repetitive and uninteresting in the Mario series before Galaxy, but here it was a small step forward.
I may be wrong, but I think you would have seen things differently if you hadn't played the Galaxy games before, which are simply masterpieces. Although some people already didn't like it at the time for some of those reasons, so I don't know. Anyway, pretty interesting takes.
I totally agree with you on this. I love this game
The consistent aesthetic of all the levels is really charming to me and I had a lot of fun exploring the world. But my god, there’s so many parts of it that made me want to pull my hair out, and a lot of it is because of janky controls or unnecessarily frustrating level design, and the linear structure prevents you from being able to skip some of them like you would in 64 or Odyssey. It’s just such a game killer, by the end of it I was holding so much resentment towards the game. Def the weakest of the 3D games.
I heard people dump on this game, but having grown up with a ps2, not a GameCube, I thought they were exaggerating. After all, 64 was amazing, Galaxy was top notch. So I got it on GameCube and boy… This is without a doubt the worst Mario game I’ve ever played. It’s absolutely horrible. In fact, the only thing it gets right is the atmosphere. That’s it. The concept is pretty fun and all, but the controls are a HUGE problem. I don’t even want to get into the flood less stages. Rubbish
That HUGE problem is you. The games controls great lmao
lol no@@NoQuittingPls
@@Usagizaka46 lol yes
@@NoQuittingPls lol no times infinity. You can’t change my mind lol.
I still play it from time to time tho.
@@Usagizaka46 why still play if its "horrible"? You can believe what you want, but the fact is you cant enjoy the game because you lack the skill to do so
This game is better than 64. There I said it, it's true. 64 is an awkward mess with bad camera controls and most of the levels are generic and uninspired.
I agree
this game was the worst, it was just annoying and hard, I know that hard games are normal and I love them but this one was just hard because of how not consistent it is and doesn’t really give you a good direction where to go, mario 64 perfected this by letting you collect almost any star in any level in whatever order but sunshine is such a setback by giving you no real hint other than the name hint and making you do every episode in order
I don't *hate* Mario Sunshine, but that's 10,000% only because of Super Mario Sunburn (A rom hack, I recommend anyone reading this google it, it's pretty cool), and really only because of one thing: The stupid idiotic stupid dumb way you unlock Corona Mountain. Who the actual hell thought it was okay to make it "do every shadow mario stage in each world" and not 70/80 shines like in the other 3D Mario games?? It singlehandedly makes me not ever want to play it because I know every shine besides the 7th one and *every* secret stage is completely pointless (I'm particularly salty about this because on my first playthrough I spent hours doing the pachinko stage before realizing it doesn't affect anything).
In Sunburn it's 70 shines. Thank god. I still agree with a lot of your points but at the very least that's not a problem anymore
It's not that it's hard. It's that it's BULLSHIT hard. Some levels you have to platform with bad controls and no FLUDD and that gimmick is also underpowered as hell. Super Mario Bros. Lost Levels is bullshit too but at least it's fun bullshit.
You don't have to wait for the Boats if you need to go into the Pachinko level; if you're good enough, you just need to use a Hover Nozzle from the sides and ground pound, saves so much time. Stuff like this is why I love this game, you start seeing more and more shortcuts the more you master it, FLUDD is not handicapping Mario so to say, it adds something to it as you can do some crazy stunts, I love that.
Just recently got back into playing sunshine and my five game overs on secret levels feel so validated right now
I saw a pretty good breakdown on this game that explained how doing the shines in the order you're forced to allows the levels to naturally evolve in a way that you wouldn't be able to see otherwise. Not just in terms of level design, but also the people that inhabit this world. Alternatively, I haven't played the game yet, but the way they presented it made so much sense that I can't help but feel like I don't want to play it the fixed way that Sunburn does by shoving as many shines into the same episodes.
this is my favorite 3D mario game lol
Same!
A lot of good points. But Mario’s movement and the camera are definitely better in Sunshine than in Mario 64.
camera? yes.
movement? absolutely not.
@@kaphizmey6229 In Mario 64, the fact that Mario cannot turn directly backwards and instead runs in a half circle is a major flaw. Also he can’t slide down walls and bounces off of them like a beach ball. The fixed both of these in Sunshine.
Just came to say the title is wrong, don't really want to watch the video
It’s the truth my dude
It's messy but fun in my opinion
It just got stuck inbetween 2 great games (64, galaxy)
Once in the shine were you battle the piranha pianta for the second time in bianco hills, a goop spawned out of nowhere meters before the shine and I was 1 hit away from death. Guess what, that little shit killed me without prior warning and had to do it all over again
I mean, it is really really beautiful.
I agree
I’m playing it now and the last I had played it was over a year Bcus it was frustrating from all the points u mentioned
Well said
im glad that as the wii generation is starting to become adults they have started calling out the flaws of the gamecube and its games despite their endless praise online. the same thing happened when the gamecube generation grew up and started pointing out how a lot of N64 games werent as good as people say, and in a decade or so the wii u generation will likely start calling out the wii games that are now getting attention.
the *wii generation???* i had a nintendo 64!!!! thank u for the comment tho xx
yes im referring more to the narrative as a whole. for about 10 years people who grew up with gamecube have been making most of the video game content (scott the woz for example) whereas people who grew up with the wii are now starting to become adults and make videos and likely are a fair amount of viewers on this video. people who have only played galaxy and heard for a long time how sunshine was some hidden masterpiece, then play it only to be disappointed
@@noizu0311as someone whose first 3d mario was galaxy, i feel so seen by your comment! tbf there were plenty of issues with the wii, but i just don’t get how people love the gamecube when its controller is by far the worst in the post-dualshock gaming era and its most notable games are unappealing experiments (i think the n64 was ok, though i can see how people think it’s weird and archaic by today’s standards)
You wii kids are just to used to games your holding hand. No opportunity to get better. (I got a wii when I was 10, so I was technically a wii kid myself lol)
@@NoQuittingPls if you were also a wii kid, then you have no right to criticize us in the first place about “games holding hand” (seriously, learn proper grammar before you come at someone)
I thought the controls in Mario 64 were way worse than Sunshine lol. The movement you can pull off though was better in 64.
Facts!
finally someone sane
Liked and subscribed. Amazingly written, no stupid jokes or obvious contrarian opinions, well thought out points that sound more like constructive criticism rather than petty complaints, and all of it coming from an objective point of view.
Woah woah I know some levels made me rage so hard I called Mario some words I won’t repeat here, but Sunshine is amazing
Edit: After watching the video i gotta say my rose tinted glass have come off holy shit this game stole so much time from me :( but i don’t regret it hahaha
It's good peak Mario, y'all gotta stop complaining it has some glitches and stuff. Dark souls 1 has a lot of glitches unfinished areas but people still call it a masterpiece. With the hardware Nintendo had and resources at the time super Mario Sunshine was fantastic. People gotta stop comparing the polish of the game like Odyssey but the unique mechanics introduced in sunshine gave a backbone for so many games after. So please stop hating my favorite game so much.
I agree with some of the criticisms of SMS but because I grew up playing this game I have a bit of a bias and I want these ideas to be further explored; for example I don't think you even touched on how limiting the spin jump is when it comes to positioning Mario in the air or how you can skip some Shines (Maybe not worth mentioning?? I have no idea), I opened up SMS on Dolphin to test out you're criticisms and I see where you are coming from and I've encountered times where Mario does feel a little bit more slippery but I feel like I've played this game long enough to know when to stop near a ledge but small thin platforms feel awkward to briefly traverse sometimes so I see that "greasy movement" critique.
(9:55) What do you do when the player is comfortable with the hover ability? I'd say encourage the player to break the level like in Bianco Hills where you can skip Shine 1 and wall jump off certain segments of the windmill to get to the 2nd Shine quicker. Wall jump into hover to reach that one goodie you couldn't get, time attack mode, Shadow Mario could give a demonstration to the player organically while you are chasing him if he had some sort of similar ink jet-pack to Mario; this is from me getting ideas from games like Cruelty Squad where it lets you break the game however you like but also gives you a rank for how fast you complete the mission.
My ideas are too long winded to share in a comment section where nobody would probably care but I feel like this video could have done a bit better or provided more solutions to problems while working within the frame work of SM64 and SMS, like you never really said anything about possible unlockables, how severely under utilized the Jet Nozzle is, or how the levels could be built more around this weird movement to compensate for the weird tractionless Mario or tweak it to be more akin to Super Meat Boy but 3D but then you'd have to make the level around that movement system and that game didn't exist during that time so uuh who give a fuck I guess....
I really like this video due to it opening more possibilities for solutions to the problems you point out and the ideas I presented probably work better somewhere else with more polish that isn't Mario, I hope I said anything of value that's better than "lol ur vid bad."
Bruh. You're right, Jet nozzle I barely saw :c
There're are honestly so many moments with weird glitches. The character moved over to the top of a tree in a star cutscene, and a mushroom was all of a sudden placed wrongly in a secret level. And the water lilies 😭
Movement has pretty much the same problem Melee does: clunky and dumb, really slippery, unless you wanna put in the time and effort for better movement. Spinjumping in this game sucks, until you learn to do the Buffered ones. Dive recovers for speed feel worse than in 64... Until you learn how to Waterslide.
Mario is slippery in Sunshine, but as a person who has played 64 and Sunshine for the first time this year (going for 120 shines currently), I think it took me longer to control Mario in the former than in the latter. I am just used to the slipperiness because I play platformer games, and oh boy is Bandage Girl slippery. It's just a matter of gauging, and FLUDD is a great mechanic even if too over-used. I had more fun skipping over the Hover Nozzle, true, but the sideflip into hover to skip many platforming sections is really satisfying, more when you discover it by yourself.
In short, I would say that Mario is slippery, but is a lot more rewarding to learn how to control him here than in 64. It's just in another plane.
As for the rest, yeah, Sunshine's not perfect. 64 has Lethal Lava Land, Rainbow Ride, Wet Dry World and Shifting Sand Land to name a few annoying levels. Sure, Sunshine's may be more bothersome and linear, but they didn't kill me unfairly 90% of the time. They were my own mistakes, in 64 I felt like I was being cheated. And until Render96 released I just could not play, I needed the analog camera because my god does it kill the game hard--
Edit: After one month of on and off play, I got 120 Shines on Sunshine! The hardest shines for me, the only ones where I've Game Overed, are Ricco 2 (didn't know squids had different handling, I just kept picking the pink one until I used the green one by accident. This is the shine that killed me the most), Bianco 3 Red Coins (I legit died so many times in this), Sirena 6 (I got close with spin spraying, but I got told how to spam spray) and the Final Boss Fight (because playing with 60 FPS patch on Dolphin will crash the game).
I also learnt the map shows you how many Blue Coins you've collected in a stage, so that's wonderful. The rest of the game was not that hard. I died thrice in Pachinko due to not using the Rocket Nozzle properly, twice in Chucksters (and none on secret Chucksters) because I quickly understood how to shoot in a straight line (align spray Fludd's head to their noses) and nine times in Lillypad (I kept picking up the 1-UP, and I cheesed it by picking up 6 red coins, getting to the end, walking on the side for the 7th coin in the air using the Hover Nozzle, landed, and came back to the end).
I’m only watching this because super Mario sunshine is my favorite game of all time and need to wrap my head around why people hate it once and for all
Same
One thing I dont think anyone in their right mind van argue against. Sunshine still to this day has the best controls of any mario game period, if not any platformer. Even mario odyssey doesnt come close to matching how good movement feels in this game.
Wrong, the whole game fesls like Mario is on ice and has controller sensitivity on max
@@Meme_Lor Exactly. Once you learn it, the amount of precision and control you have is unmatched.
@@orange_turtle3412except that no control system which demands such hair-splitting precision to begin with is good, sunshine has godawful handling thanks to the janky physics (and excessively tight platforms in some areas)
@@kaphizmey6229 It takes getting used to. And some of the collision geometry is admittedly awful. But when the game works as intended, its easily the best controls in the series.
@@kaphizmey6229 Thats just your poor reaction time
Yeah absolutely ovandal you're games opinions are always correct and are never ever misinformed.
So, I absolutely love this game. I grew up on it. I come back to this game quite frequently, and that's been going on for a good 20 years now. I think because I got this game as a kid at release, the controls, physics and glitches are all suoernormal to me, and I've adjusted to them all those years ago. Now as an adult I use all the exploits, Mario's movement and all tricks in the book to beat the game. I think I can 100% the game in about 12 hours now (nowhere near the WR tho!). I think I've 100 percented the game about 15 to 20 times in all those years. I love it. I think the fact that this was my favorite game as a kid really helps me to enjoy the game, whereas others maybe don't. Maybe it's just me. But I wanted to explain my side a little bit, as an absolute Mario Sunshine lover.
As someone who just got all 120 stars on Super Mario Sunshine...
I agree with pretty much everything Ovandal has said. Do not try at home.
This game is fantastic. Currently playing through it again.
It's not the worst when games like Hotel Mario and Paper Mario: Sticker Star exist.
those arent 3d mario mainline titles
@@pelican7235 I wasn't talking about 3D mainline titles
I love Mario Sunshine but GOD do I hate Mario Sunshine
Idk if it was just me, but i had more fun playing 3D land instead of Sunshine
I just want to 100% the game so I can never play it again
12:54 OH NO
I already know that has gotta be a comic dub thing
sunshine is my favorite 3d mario game... but ff8 is my absolute favorite final fantasy game (followed closely by 15), so i'm willing to accept that my brain is just bunkum
I agree , with your brain prognosis
My testicles swell up in pain when I get frustrated so playing Super Mario Sunshine made me cry in agony from horrific testicle pain
my first play of it on 3D all stars genuinely shocked me with how frustrating it was after hearing for years about how great its controls were
Imagine judging the game based off the switch controller rather than the gamecube controller, play on Dolphin and don't be a normie.
i was streaming all the marios and uploading the vods to youtube, when i reached this i played 2 hours and killed all my motivation, even after 25+ years, mario 64, mario rpg, even old marios are fun to play, this game though.... absolute garbage, it feels like i'm doing homework, also there is no motivation or goal, some jackass ruined an island and I HAVE TO CLEAN UP HIS MESS? wtf, there is no reward, no motivation, i could just leave and go to a different vacation, also... i just feel like a janitor fking cleaning everywhere around, no fun, no meaning, just cleaning around.
I hated this game, and i usually like even bad games
15:20 those wind enemies are really good at knocking down bad players such as yourself. Not a real issue if you have at least some sort of awareness
For some reason I love this game. The atmosphere is unlike any other in the franchise, it wasn’t afraid to beat the living shit out of you, and the graphics were pretty alright for the time. But most of all this game dared to take risks and be unique, and that’s something at least I can respect.
This game was rushed, it was supposed to be a launch title for the Gamecube, but it wasn't ready yet, so they had to delay the game for a whole another until the game was at least playable before shipping it, I really wish 3D All Stars would have fixed all the bugs and glitches
There is one thing that makes me very mad about this game:
They could have fixed the controls and Blue coins with the 3D All Stars Version, but they didn’t
finally someone fucking said it
couldn't agree more with all of the points that you made. this game made me dislike the mario franchise for the first time ever, until i convinced myself that nintendo released a troll under the guise of a mario game, and from that perspective, i made peace with its existence, got 120 shines and won't ever play it again.
I KNOW you didn't just slander Tak and the Power of Juju
sowwy (´；ω；｀)
yeah, that game is goated. and it’s designed to be taken at a slower pace, so i don’t feel like it “wastes the player’s time” like sunshine does at some points
Mario sunshine is the best game in the franchise
I never understood the hard on for 64! Sunshine is wat better!
YOU PUT SOME RESPECT ON BILLY HATCHER! It might not have been main stream but it was 1 of my absolute favorites growing up
Honestly, I have to agree to... This was a low cow series I like from Mario.
But was it too bad? Yes and No. I can't decide because it has SOME people who likes the game as well.
I didn't enjoy the game that much cause I had frustration on some levels and bosses I had to go through probably like 3 times or more to try to beat it... But I halfway like some of it stuff it had compare from many other Mario games out there.
Still, Mario is still going fresh this way further ways since then and he's not slowing down.
For me this was the 1st ever Mario game I played as a kid back in 2006, and it was not till 2 years ago that I was able to end this game completely.
I have to admit that it was kinda fun to play, but there were some days in which I got stuck for hours in a simple level and got very frustated (after that frustation, my medicine was playing Need For Speed Most Wanted for GameCube, so I could drive reckless after that infuriating Mario experience XD).
I still have my GameCube and this game, and the thing I most enjoy are the graphics and sound.
I share a lot of your complainings, but at the same time this game have an special place in my heart xd.
wtf is wrong with billy hatcher????!
ive never played a mario game but honestly umm correct and based and uhh so true
Where the hell have you been in these past 30 years GAMER?
@@Antonio-is2cn not everyone here is 30 years old, get with the times
@@KirbyFanDudeeven then op would have to be actively avoiding mario if he’s never played one, it’s pretty much the quintessential “video game”
My fondest memory of this game is being drenched in sweat, teary eyed and starting to pray to god as a relatively non religious 7 years old because of that red coin collecting episode in the harbour stage.
I don't hate Mario Sunshine, it's just that I'm a completionist, and because the blue coins suck @#$!, I just opt out of playing the game. I completed it one time when it first came out and remember thinking "welp, that sucked" lol. If they added two or three more worlds to the game and removed the blue coins (basically, if the game wasnt rushed), I would've enjoyed it a lot more.
100% agree with you and didn’t even finish to watch the video. i’m trying to finish the game, right now i have 66 sunshines but i can’t figure out how to get to the final boss lol