Ethical Cults vs Culty Cults, Jamie Wheal
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
- In his bestseller, Stealing Fire, Jamie Wheal talked about peak experiences and group flow states as the cutting edge for human evolution. But since then, he's become more and more concerned by how these techniques are being used and abused. Now he's releasing a checklist - to answer the question - how to spot a cult.
To download the Ethical Cult Checklist, go to: flowgenomeproje...
To see films from the recent workshop with Jamie, 'Ethical Cult Building, Collective Sensemaking in an Age of Existential Risk', become a Rebel Wisdom member: www.rebelwisdo...
We also reference the 'Making Sense of Sensemaking' film in this: • Making Sense of Sensem...
You can listen to a podcast versions of our films on Spotify or Apple Podcasts by searching 'Rebel Wisdom' or download episodes from our Podbean page: rebelwisdom.po...
We also have a Rebel Wisdom Discord discussion channel: / discord
Thank you for introducing Jamie Wheal to me - he is by far the most impressive thought leader I learned about in the last few years. Someone who combines high IQ, high EQ and deep spiritual insights is such a rare finding nowadays, there is just too much BS out there and Jamie is like a fresh breeze of air in this world. I hope you guys continue to put out videos with him! Great work Rebel Wisdom!
You should read LouisFerre1’s comment above.
A cult is characterized by two major traits: 1. You can't leave. 2. Leaders are policing your thoughts. That's how!
in most cases, you _can_ leave but they use manipulative techniques to persuade you to stay. unless they can't make use of you.
Ria Ora The cult leaders use whatever means are at their disposal to prevent leaving.
I think you're missing the idea of communitas there.
Edmund Butler I most likely am. Maybe because there's no such word as "communitas"... 😂
@@Hallands. It is referenced fairly extensively in the film
Steven Hassan is a great expert in cults. One attribute I remember from reading his book is that cults misrepresent themselves to the newcomer because they believe they are not ready for the knowledge that the insiders of the cults have.
Was in a cult for about 20 years and I think you’ve nailed the ‘culty’ aspects of it.
which one? good for you that you got out. a relative got sucked into est/the Forum/Landmark (it changed its name several times) and never got over it.
@@bluesuns haha its now called landmark forum and they tried to get me to join, yet my jedi powers were too strong and I even convinced another person not to join.
Although I do feel bad because there was one other person there who stayed behind... 😔
I realy hope so ...
Because if you don't get them their results paradoxical team offers the previous post/ joke .... hopefully. The only way I could have a good time for me to be honest. I have to pay a fee of courses will help you find the best way to get the bus stop the same as a friend of the Crown Victoria Beck an the Ham/iltons and the best. If I was just the thing to be honest with the same as for everyone is doing well. Echo Boomers not long now until we send it includes some important information regarding your account and click Help link located in your account details are correct and I will be a great day out with the latest news from your system your life easier and faster my teeth god damit my teet will ll drive me ovr the eno
@@bluesuns Sometimes it takes me back ... ;-)
"We stumble and fall constantly even when we are most enlightened. But when we are in true spiritual darkness, we do not even know that we have fallen." Remembering Thomas Merton, who died on this day in 1968.
(this Unitarian minister, happy to celebrate a RC spiritual master of the 20th century)
Everyone is looking for shortcuts, when all the real paths that I know of take discipline.
dang man, yah
What is technology but a "shortcut"? (i.e. a more efficient, and often faster, way of doing something).
Absolutely!
@@Corteum Or is it following the path? As opposed to keeping getting lost in the wilderness.
@@richardhill3405 Technology is a way of doing something that can be reliably repeated... A process that can be relied on to produce some kind of predictable outcome or effect.
thanks Jamie. I'm impressed with the cohesion of the analysis.
Are you also impressed by the truly deluded, wicked, evil concepts he espoused, SLAVE?
@@TheWorldTeacher Thanks for the dark.
Wheal is great. And it's not just millennials who ignored a lot of the 60s counter culture lessons, some of us Gen X were also allergic to hearing about the 60s. It was only post psychadelics that I recently realized what those hippies and beats were on about.
i can tell this guy takes care of his health
talk about a smart person, he is brilliant
The hair transplant looks good.
Or is on some good amphetamines. He cant stay on a string of topic, he goes on deep tangents. His is in his own head. He has a lot of good information but he is on drugs to get the way he is right now. #limitless
Wow after learning more about this guy, turns out I was right. He is just really high on amphetamines. Like a crack head but somewhat under control. If it doesn't harm your body then great, but have to see what he is on to see if it has lasting harm. I am all for it if it can be under control.
I’ve been thinking these same thoughts lately. Thank you, RUclips. I love knowing I’m not alone.
Wonderful talk! Thank you so much Jamie. I was with Adi Da for seven years and completely relate to your superb analysis of what happened there.
This is fascinating , and is much needed food for thought at this time.
There is a strange energy that comes from groups regardless of religious or political ideology right down to football fans kicking the poo out of a rival fan. For some reason it becomes more than the sum of it's parts.
“its” not “it’s” parts.
Edit before you post, for God’s sake!
Dizzy Derwish
Please accept my apology it annoys me too and yes I should have edited .
You're not publishing a thesis, chill it's a comment on the internet. General rule is don't comment about grammar unless it pertains to (miss)understanding.
martyn spooner Yet you STILL have not gone back to your comment & edited it!
Fake apology rejected!
Michael L “mis” not “miss” understanding!
Fantastic! Right on the money.. Great channel too well done!
Are you impressed by the truly deluded, wicked, evil concepts he espoused, SLAVE?
I like it how when JW says "Caveat Emptor" and "Tabula Rasa", however, I'm a bit concerned about the health of the indoor plant behind him.
Yeh! That is one sick, tortured yukka! Poor thing!
Humans become vulnerable to putting others on pedestals to the extent that they have not integrated their own power shadow. Only shadow integration on a personal level can cure this problem. I agree with most of this checklist, but it will be ignored by those who still seek power over others and deny it. Still a nice thing to chat about and not pointless.... I don't see it as central to the matter. Edit: nice mention of the shadow issue around 23:00 . Great! Thank you! Focus on cleaning-up... waking-up will happen in a healthy and automatic way if you do this.
THIS! Exactly this! ^ the damage perpetuates itself.
The "golden shadow" never heard the term or concept before, interesting.
If someone has only one teacher: you will never understand the whole picture. Everybody has shadow/s, even teachers. If you think your teacher is flawless, you are unaware of your shadow and your teachers. If someone thinks it is preposterous to think of a spiritual teacher having a shadow, it is the opposite. It is preposterous to think that any teacher is god. People worship false gods.
@@tahwsisiht Yes!
Great talk. The plant behind Jamie needs watering! I am wondering how Wheal addresses the rise of SJ and Identity Politics in all this.
seriously
He is like a super evolved Jordan Peterson who lacks broadcast time! He is writing a book right now, but I think a he should put himself out there in video more often, since he is an incredibly gifted speaker.
Hehehe
I had to go back and look lol!!!!....yes it does ;)
jme u suk! lol :-)
I didn’t like this till he mentioned LOTRs. Now I’m on board.
I really thought a lot about this problem ever since I started to view Jordan as some sort of role model, because I am aware of this dangour and I'm glad you guys are too. The one thing I really admire about Jordan, is the fact that he is actually pretty aware of this. He once said during an interview, I guess it was in 2017, that he really thinks all of this could go horribly wrong, because when you are surfing a giant wave, what usually happens is that you drown. He also had some puplic appearances that made me cringe very hard....because you could clearly tell that the crowd would buy literally everything he would say ......and you could see, if you view carefully, that he didn't enjoyed it at all.
I would argue that it's more of a problem with what he is saying, than the fact that he is speaking. As to say, a deathcult is gonna do, what a deathcult is gonna do. Much akin to saurons ring. Roman judao christian morality is fundamentally flawed. Charlemagne had it, and he bathed in blood like a heathen, in the blood of litteral heathens.
the ring has an empty centre. Great discussion, and information, so important for humanity at this time of great upheaval where people are so vulnerable
The check list is such a helpful tool. I’m not sure if this is the right thing for me to do, but I’m going to print a bunch of copies and spread them around. Hopefully it can do some good.
Fuck! I love the way Jamie speaks. Amazing analogies, quotes, references, casual F bombs. Could listen to him all day.
After reading the comments it feels to me like many people are missing the opportunity to participate in a meaningful way even though by you even being here you are demonstrating a desire for real positive change. Rebel Wisdom and Jamie Wheal are talking about how to ensure that we don't fall into cult like groups while transitioning to a way of life where each of us treats the other person like it actually matters that they succeed in a way that allows us to succeed as well. This is game b and we need everyone to play it better than they are right now or we will never survive. People seem to be bound to find ways to separate themselves from others rather than finding common ground and that tendency is getting worse even as we are getting much more efficient at destroying each other. In the face of this dilemma, game b is the only thing that makes sense to me.
Whatever we do to has to have some grounding in science and reason somehow or it will fail in this modern era. But we are not at that point yet with Game B since it feels like the thing that everyone senses in their gut but cannot explain. It sometimes is experienced as our conscience but other times it settles into us like bliss. It also seems to sometimes advise action that will not be in our self interest but is still somehow true and good. We have mistakenly named these feelings and behaviours that are spawned by them as altruism and relegated it to the fringe along with other behaviour that is confused and self-destructive yet said to be coming from a good place. Altruistic people are sweet but they are not people we want to emulate if we want to be a BadAss and succeed in this world. There just does not seem to be any rational arguments for altruism.
There is no rational argument for altruism because many of the feelings that produce altruistic behaviour are generated by billions of stimuli that constantly bombard our senses but sit outside our current shared relevance realization. John Vervaeke's work on the scientific basis for intuition illuminates that point eloquently while Jordan Hall's insights on the early adoption of Game B suggests that these scientific discoveries may be used to map out and explain many of the behaviours that run counter to Game B principles.
In his series on Escaping from the Meaning Crisis, John has pointed out that there are billions of things happening around us that we cannot begin to pay attention to because we would go mad if we did so and have evolved to pay attention to a minute percentage of these stimuli because they have relevance to us somehow (I am paraphrasing here John, so please feel free to correct me). But that does not mean that what is perceived as relevant stays static. We are constantly shifting what is relevant to us as things on the periphery and far beyond our tiny focus push in on the edges in different ways as vague feelings. Because they lie outside of our feeble sensemaking apparatus we tend to label these feelings as intuition.
Jordan Hall has been working on Game B concepts for many years, was one of the founders of the idea at the Santa Fe institute and is even credited with coining the term Game B. In a recent conversation with another of Game B's founders, Jim Rutt, Jordan postulated that everyone has been playing Game B throughout human history but mostly at zero or a very low level. Whenever we have a trade off between what we think we need to do to survive and what we feel deep down is right, we are conscious of and playing Game B. We all have everything we need to play Game B because we have always been playing it. All that is needed to increase the level of participation is value. Real scientific and common sense value to each individual must be demonstrated in Game B for the level of participation to increase.
Many of those values have already been discovered but now only need to be scientifically attributed to Game B. This task is simplified if we use John's work to reclassify altruism. Those feelings that we thought were our conscience or foolish altruistic motives are instead revealed to be stimuli beyond the periphery of our relevance realization mechanism. They are telling us that certain seemingly pleasurable or BadAss behaviours will eventually hurt us or the ones we love while other seemingly commonplace or even averse behaviours will bring us a deep feeling of meaning, contentment and sometimes even unexplainable bliss while benefitting us and the ones we love. In other words, following the deep sense of whats right (the orienting reflex discussed at length in many of Jordan Peterson's lectures) will dramatically improve our contentment, meaning and lasting pleasure right here and right now while eradicating the meaning crisis.
Seen in this light then altruism is nothing but enlightened self interest that can be demonstrated using the Scientific Method. At that point it is also quite possible to see it as the very ground that sits beneath most religions allowing us to invite all those ardent followers to play Game b according to their own religious doctrines. Christ's two commandments were: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."
Game B can be revolutionary if it is seen as a scientific discovery that also "feels" right when we think about it. Everyone can teach and model this to a child as well as use it through the arc of their own development. "Everyone's success matters" is a simple message that invites everyone to participate and succeed even though it is a very complex challenge. It also offers the possibility of revivifying instead of usurping old religions and helping them to weed out their own bad actors. But as we transition to Game B we have to use reason to guide us so we don't follow some new and innovative bad actors over a cliff as many cult members have in the past.
Rebel Wisdom and Jamie Wheal are not perfect but their message is helpful. Avoid cults at all costs as we transition to Game b and here are some things to watch for. It would also be helpful for us to invoke rule Omega and see if we cant clarify and amplify what we each believe to be the strongest and most resonant signals in their message. Each one of us in this comment section can make this signal better. I propose we at least give it a try we since we have little chance of success without all of us participating as equals who encourage each other to speak the truth as they experience it. But to also do so in a meaningful way.
Great input. So much to think about... Thank you.
I suspect that a Game A economy will exert Game A selection pressures, upon any memetic systems that emerge from within it. This includes the Game B framework. Whatever version of it becomes popular-- it will almost certainly propagate zero-sum dynamics.
This may sound fatalistic. But I remain an optimist. I simply am trying to stress the importance of orienting towards a Game B macroeconomic framework, and a Game B means of achieving it. Individual & psychosocial transformation are crucial, but I am afraid of the direction these transformations will take, if we do not fix the economic pressures which affect people's psychology so powerfully.
Right now, I believe that the most Game B friendly action I can take, is to advocate for Basic Income. I've come to the conclusion that the real resource economy has already been non-zero-sum for quite a long time-- we have simply been playing a zero-sum "money game" on top of it, with very real consequences. A UBI changes this: it beings to alter the fiscal game, to match the resource game, for the first time.
It has surprised me: how the Game B space has largely overlooked the emerging UBI movement, and if you asked me to name the most encouraging sign of Game B development today, it would not be the Game B ideaspace itself-- which I am concerned is falling into a bit of a rut. It would be the Basic Income movement, which is currently reaching a high-point of awareness in the U.S., largely thanks to Andrew Yang.
The ideas behind UBI are more complex & more important than a first glance at the Yang campaign might suggest to you. If you're into Game B, and you want to talk about economics, let me know, I would be happy to discuss further.
No ubi for me thanks I prefer to use my skills and God given talents to earn my way through life. I feel a ubi only benefits people have not put the effort in or cant be bothered to put in the effort for success in the world. I see a lot of people that are looking for the easy way, you get out of life what you put into it. Sm
@@jasonmcgrath8766 Hmm. For people who put in not just effort, but actually useful / meaningful effort, they tend to be rewarded with wages or profits. That's true in UBI world, too-- the UBI goes to everyone, and people earn wages or profits on top.
In either case, wages & profits are used by the economy not "to reward hard work" but to motivate work that's actually beneficial to other people / i.e. attracts consumer spending & profit.
UBI is simply an efficient way to distribute income for people to spend at markets in the first place, compared to what we do now.
@@jasonmcgrath8766 It's certainly true that no one would force you either to take a basic income, or to spend it. You could save it, refuse it, or give it away, if you prefer to receive income only through wages.
I heard the whispers of Tzeentch the last time i listened to this bloke. Now he sounds like the ministratum
Lastly, I found the marketing at the end for rebel wisdom to be disturbingly close to the cult like marketing referred to during the discussion. Be careful...
Haha I thought that too. ‘Become a member to see more’ - I am a member btw lol
I saw that too. I suspect that Jamie was being careful to avoid naming RW and Peterson as getting a little cultlike. Some of the attributes that Jamie mentioned are present, e.g. saving the world from polarisation (RW) and saving the world from chaos and SJW's (Peterson). Saving the world by ending illusion is okay, but when it is focused on specific dislikes, then it's dubious.
@@worldwidehappiness But if you can't save the world, what's the point?
@@ljr6723 Saving the world by ending illusion is okay, but when it is focused on specific dislikes, then it's dubious.
@@worldwidehappiness I was only speaking half in jest. When you stop and think about it, why does anyone want to save the world? Really. And what does that even mean?
For Utopians of any type, religious or political, it means re-forming the world into a certain image.
For the monetarily successful and comfortable it is keeping things as they are.
For many of the people interviewed here at RW it is about saving the leftward societal trends in the west from the lunatic fringe who are driving the middle further to the right, and saving the west from any further tribal coagulation.
And for the Greta's of the world it is saving the biosphere from the human race.
But for the elites around the world, the true 1 percent, more likely less than that, more like .1%, and the wannabes at the upper levels of most western nations, saving the world has nothing to do with you or me. We are expendable. Saving the world is saving it for them, and the fewer of us there are in the end, the better.
And what does saving the world mean to the many billions of people in the non-Western world? To the extent they think about it, I am guessing it is a matter of their comfort zone, making the world more like their part of it, only better. For those in severe poverty, regular meals and medicine would no doubt represent saving the world.
If we are real, and remove the illusions as you point out correctly, we must admit most of our conversations here are not about saving the world but saving the west from our own perceived danger. And clearly we don't all agree on what that looks like, nevermind the method to get there. Scaling that to the globe doesn't come up a lot.
And despite our pontifications, like this one, we are really talking about self-interest and the larger interest as it enhances our self-interest.
To be fair, there is a possibility that I am here among saints so I can only speak for myself, I suppose, but I believe that I am speaking illusion-free.
Great. I always wanted to build an ethical cult.
Waaaay ahead of you there. 😈
everyone who builds a cult WANTS to build an ethical cult at first but power is a hell of a drug
I can see some of the comments are pointing to a misunderstanding of the content. Jamie is providing his guidelines on how to maintain an ethical cult, as to avoid dysfunction. He's not saying that all cults are bad.
Another excellent film involving a collaboration between Rebel Wisdom and Jamie Wheal
Crazy synchronicity. I was told to work on my golden shadow recently but didnt know what that meant.
I need a conversation between him and Jordan Pederson. Jp’s mind will be blown. He’s not at this level yet but it’s the next after his forthcoming religious experience is analyzed, which he’ll do eventually I suspect, if he lives that long. I expect he’ll go Catholic. For that matter, love to see Jamie and Bishop Barron have this talk. How will an intellectually open but fully Christ committed (celibacy, obedience vows) respond to these insights?
The talk was great explaining how anything even something like dreamy oxytocin has a positive & negative side just like anything else. It is a source of energy, & there will be those that understand how to first manipulate it in themselves than in others. Which can develop cults. Great connection of thoughts & experiences Jamie.
Until the end when the video discusses joining groups, subscribing & separate information if you do. Isn’t that kind of the point he was making?
It's something quite different to manipulate oxytocin to take away someone's agency and offer paid content - otherwise every newspaper behind a paywall would be a kind of a cult...90% of our content is free, we offer exclusive content and other benefits to people who support so we can sustain ourselves and make more films
Loved the part about pseudo terms - especially for us westerners, it just creates separation between the user of the terms and everyone else. It's one thing to think of a concept and enjoy entertaining it, and another to try to use words to convey it to people as if it's going to save the world.
Hierarchical pyramid structures exist in "culty cults", and in normal society too. In both cases, the ones at the top believe they can do whatever they like, and no one has the power to stop them.
Our society IS a cult.
Loved listening.👍👍
People will be easily enraged about Race , religion , and political differences as long as Their True histories are kept hidden from Them by the powers that be. My vision for the Future is a World in which People are aware of the infinite corruption creating the divisions in humanity , and have the courage to take back Their Freedoms.
David Wayne Choate is the corruption in us or outside of us do you really think?
Spot on, David. Momma Llama, the corruption is outside of us. We were born into this ignorant world and brainwashed by it. We have to see and end the brainwashing.
@@Orthodoxi Outside for sure. If You do not "choose" to sell it Your Soul it Can NOT harm You , and once You know how powerful You are , and that all the Guilt , Hate < Hurt , and Fear You thought was Yours to carry was really It's tricking You to believe that in attempts to distract , and weaken You into thinking Your Soul is not worth much It will go in for the bargain Deal , but if You can see that all the Guilt , and Pain , and thinking You are'nt God's brother cause You are Scared , and once You see it is not your Fear , and hate , or guilt at all because it was a Trick and deception , so You don't own the Fear and Guilt .It does. and just as easy as thinking or imagining Yourself literally throwing it back onto it You will see with even clearer Mind , and Laugh at it's true Pathetic , and weak nature that even if you want to forgive it , and just part ways , It's not even capable of understanding what forgiving is so laugh and Mock it , and feel the Power You Own. !!
Absolutely fascinating conversation. Interestingly it highlights that the range of organisations that can become “culty” (incidentally a great new word) are more diverse than previously thought. A friend of mine was the bassist of a group that became quite famous, and he described it like Jonestown. And why did he get kicked out? Having a relationship that the leader objected to within the band!
Conversation??
I only saw a monologue.
Now, how to decipher the possible percentage numbers of individual leaders within business and government who may have allowed the 1% shadow to become the current helmsman aboard the brilliantly lighted ship?
Merle Patterson you mean misleaders?
@@Orthodoxi Well, if one's position over the society is meant "To Lead" and not "Mislead" has any relevance, then the inverse can be true at the same time.
This is fantastic! Gen-Xer who loved Black Flag, Naked Raygun, Butthole Surfers, the Beatles, Robert Johnson, Muddy Waters, Pink Floyd...Never dug Zeppelin. It definitely felt like a wasteland. I grew up religiously, surrounded by Domionists. What I thought was interesting is at the beginning of the 90’s some really great alternative thinking movies came out, ‘Drop Dead Fred’, ‘Thunderheart’, ‘Little Buddha’, ‘A Handmaid’s Tale’, ‘The Celestine Prophecy’, and ‘Stigmata’ and probably some that I missed. They pointed to a broader way to interact with our psyches, ways to process the intangible that isn’t purely dualistic , right and wrong and that self-actualization is layered and messy, not fluffy bunnies and rainbows and the focus is internal, not external. Then after around 1995, it just felt like suddenly mass hypnosis took over. All entertainment was calibrated for profit only and there was a sense that there was this deliberate and escalated effort in the entertainment/media culture to knock people off their center, to weaponize euphemisms pretending to represent an identity, all to keep everyone looking outside. I feel like I was sucked into parallel earth. It’s nice to hear from someone who is emotionally sober.
Carrie Perillo yes! I’m born in 1983, so not sure if I’m very late X or very early Y, but I remember the movies from the 90s being very explorative and has very interesting plots. When I enter red high school, it does seem that movies has started the shift towards inverting a lot of traditional models ie. incapable man-boys played for laughs in comedy. Hard to say if it had any effect, but it does leave an imprint on how I view myself as being less of a man, like say Cary Grant or Jet Li.
What an engaging and articulate interview. Amazing. Thank you
I love Jamies metaphors! I totally get him more because of it too 😂
Hmm sounds like extinction rebellion and the labour party 🤔
Obviously.
@DeltaGem indeed yes.
.....and brexiters .
@@vicredshaw1155 na more like remoaners...
@@glesgatruth6844 hahaha !
The question I have about the “opt - in” idea is this. I was born into and raised in a supposedly “opt-in” cult. However I never had the choice to opt in, and when I left it was highly traumatizing as I left my entire world. My friends, my family.
How would you handle children in an opt-in community?
Excellent interview. Super informative and interesting.
This video is gold. A perfect balance in perspective. I must admit, as I get further into my spiritual development and realization, I find myself almost wanting to pump the breaks precisely because I always feel so disgusted by the way most of these very genuinely realized teachers and sages tend to turn out. I still to this day feel very nauseated by how spiritual realization tends to unfold in both other peoples lives and also my life when I start noticing how vulnerable I myself tend to get when I get a hit of insight and that can turn into being narcissistic and arrogant with others and it just raises the question for me on “is this really worth it?” It’s a hard path to really reconcile on the way if a person (including myself) walks with real honesty and clarity.
I think the solution is to continually negate the false rather than to proclaim the true.
Interesting. This is explaining and cementing the ideas of the Messiah Complexes I am seeing in others including Brian Rose ( who has claimed he has saved men from killing themselves). I wonder what Jamie thinks of the Red Pilled concept.
I agree with this 100% at least from how I am perceiving it. I haven't read that book yet, but I'm interested now. Peak states to me has been a term so associated with NLP which is so associated to marketing and charlatans that I have been kind of turned off. The stuff about group identity & membership vs atomized individual, where a atomized individual seeing and being involved in group cooperation, and strength in numbers without getting tied up in group think and becoming a simple cog in a machine/groupy. In a sense losing individual identity when that identity should be the foundation I believe, and group membership is just like an attribute or characteristic : a layer on the foundation of the atomized individual identity (which in itself is a mental projection/abstraction and something to augment our being that is even deeper than all of that). I think these are the principles to teach to transcend tribalism. It seems to me to run counter intuitively to capitalism and free market where if it is successful to either be like a cult leader (become an influencer or brand yourself as an authority), or fall back to a group identity while not recognizing individual identity because it seems like the most honest/moral way to get by, than free market capitalism seems to serve us best doing the very things that many of us would find immoral or in a bigger, longer term picture non utilitarian and counter productive.
I find it ironic/humorous that right at the end of the video, to get access to the video footage of supposedly exclusive lectures requires membership. Not unexpected, not a bad thing, but humorous none the less. :)
clean and valuable presentation thanks for the work
21:00 Dumbledore.
From my experience, Evangelical Christianity has many cult-like aspects.
I was just watching a Tulsi Gabbard piece and was shocked to see how pro-Tulsi commenters were waxing conspiratorial for no good reason. Pessimistically speaking, is there really any hope of surmounting these deep human urges?
Yes, have hope, maybe search other less cerebral links to finding peace, maybe a Chopin nocturne.
We arent going to meet up in our shared intellectual experiences to smoke a peace pipe. We will meet where we are truly equal, in our confusion.
I am not saying g avoid the thinkers, they're great and have earned screen time. I'm just saying no one will ever explain away our confusion.
Or their own.
Travis English Thanks for that. I have a favorite Chopin collection on RUclips which has rescued me in the past.
@@iankclark nice!
Excellent talk, wonderful points and an extraordinarily important topic!
...But the nerd cultist that I am must point out that Gandalf was of the Lord of the Rings lore of which he spoke while Dumbledore belongs to the world Harry Potter 🧙♂️
Water is life for everyone
FYI: Fantasia was based on the famous Ballad "Der Zauberlehrling" (The Magic Apprentice) by Johann Wolfgang von Goethe.
The original text can be found, among other places, on wikipedia:
de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Zauberlehrling
The link to the checklist included in the description, is broken and leads to an error page
Hello i was abused severely in diamond approach by john Harper. İ am in desperacy to undo what he had done. İs there any way you can help me to end this leathal abuss
Very interesting but speaks with too many metaphors and too much jargon.
completely agree i really want to but i find it hard to listen to him
JC S lol, genuinely interested as to why my comment would be associated with boomers.
"Where is the realm for ethical cults?" - Bitcoin, Veganism, Sports. - There are others, but that's enough for most.
The Yoga Sutras of Patanjali mesh with the discussion about humankiind's spiritual development. So interesting...
Great stuff. I studied sociology of religion and this guy could lecture it at graduate level! Also gives off some Terrence McKenna vibe
Actually, it's Daniel Schmachtenberger who I thought should accept the nomination for Terrence McKenna reincarnate. (Except I don't believe in reincarnation...) If you can, watch his RUclips presentation on emergence. Daniel is a frequent collaborator with Jamie.
I also think Jamie must be microdosing on some neuroplasticity enhancing drug (MDMA?) or optimal nootropic to be that fluid and frictionless in his speech. That's when I noticed he's always chewing gum in interviews. So I looked up nootropic gum. It does exist.
Please, Somebody tell me Who Terry Patton is. I got curious.
Is he going to read the comments on this RUclips video ?
the deconstruction of public education and the lionization of sport and sports figures have contributed to this polarization enormously.everyone around me is trained to react in this way.
What about the whole wave experience not just the small peak
I see a problem with such a checklist. You could apply most of these items to what everyone considers legitimate spiritual movements. There are even elements of these intimidation techniques in the origins of Zoroastrianism, in the Apostolic Christian foundation period, and even in Buddhism. So the list itself is virtually non-falsifiable. The second problem is with the question "What's the alternative? If I reject this, where does that leave me? On my way to being dead and currently mostly disillusioned?"
Note that according to some reasonably reliable sources Ken Wilber was, himsellf, partially bankrolled by US clandestine services based on the insight (gleaned from a "science of media" established by certain elites in studies like the Radio Research Project, chaired by Paul Lazarsfeld in the late 1930s) that TV would wipe out conventional religiosity. Wilber and New Age in general was supposed to be a TV-era replacement for conventional religion, which was obsolescing. We're still toying with the idea of replacing religion with a religion that's not a religion. Thus any insight about cults is liable to be tainted by the very thing it's supposedly protecting us from, with what were originally and arguably good intentions. No one wants another Beer Hall Putsch.
Meanwhile, none of these insights is predicated on an insight into the effects of media on the mentality of human beings, so they miss the foundations of tetradic management (which obsolesced itself in the 1970s). Any insight with real purchase would recognize, for instance, the similarity between the effects of television on a population and the effects of psychedelic drugs like LSD. If this correspondence is missed then you have an approach that is frankly missing the most potent vectors of them all.
Fun video thanks. Every thought is a cult. Just pick your wave and let it ride.
Jamie does his own laundry I would guess. Top marks for not observing decorum ;-) The important question to ask: will everybody now start wearing mis-laundered clothing? We want to bring order out of chaos after all.
LOL. A little bleach in the color wash I see. I remember when blue jeans only came in dark blue and it became to thing to bleach them first before wearing them. So who knows?
Excellent
Warning Cult alert: Peace & Love :D
Sex trafficking and mind control go hand and hand. Powerful forces lurk behind many of these ecstatic communities. It’s sounds obvious but “Love” does not equal sex trafficking. Thank you! This work is extremely helpful, well thought out and intelligently spoken.
Brilliant..
I don't get that word he says that sound like 'self renidy' to me? Can someone help me what he means by that?
I heard "sovereign-innity". lol
sovereignty
I agree with the plant issue- does the plant speak the truth?
Brilliantly spoken
The irony is, that alot of those traditional cults were culty cults. It's just that people were alot less educated back in the day. I like that jamie is actually willing to have the conversation on the value and necessity of religion within society, and i really like that he understands that ethicasy and sovereignty is an absolutely necessary component to this. But... Who is he kidding??? Figures like jesus and muhammed were ultimate conquering wack jobs, and yes they could light people up, but the insanity itself was within the core tenants very theology they ascribed too. The element of sublimation, the "surrender" the intire point was the maximum possible amount of power. In reality there is no difference between the culty cults and the lineages, all cults are just cults. Be they society and government itself, not just the local universalist slave making organized religious morality setting zeitgeist narrating deathcult. The difference is the intensity of the cults in question. Stress radicalizes people. The old religions can definitely come right back if times get hard enough. Humanbeings are quite messed up. Agriculture has done a real number on near everyone these days. Even before the big universalist religions, the regional grounded faiths of antiquity were essentially war cults. Our intire civilization as a concept is founded on war and slavoury. Sure the experiences were real, but don't pretend that it was for benevolent aims. We live in societys without spiritual sovereignty today, because that was the first thing the cults took from people in the past. Religion has the reputation it has, because of the abuses it perpetuated. Can humanity to better? Yes. But not by idolising the ideologies of the worst humanity debacers in the past. And the U.N. Is far from benevolent.
Jesus was a conquering whack job?
The problem with not knowing the past, isn't that you won't have a model to follow. It's that almost no new ideas are really new, and our history is a collection of many systems, movements, innovations, groups etc. their rises and falls and the lingering effects. I think Wheal is lamenting how many people are focused on going down the same roads human beings traveled in the past with catastrophic results at times.
Being more conscious of when the sexual revolution went overboard, finally ended, the stories of women during that time for example, probably might make some of the more negative aspects of hookup culture of youth today. Countless revolutions, cultural and political fall into this trap. The problem is that human nature does not change, our culture, technologies and bodies of knowledge do but we as physical, fleshy things, despite all our potential, have intractable limitations and living in a world of such complexity there's too much knowledge, wisdom to learn in life to have to learn it all from the ground up.
DVG45 luke 19:27 and mathew 10:34 when reading the bible it is best to read intire segments, as to say the entirety of luke 19 OR mathew 10 so that you get the context of what's being said rather than a cherry picked quote. As that's how you tell your reaped whirlwinds from wild and youthfull lecturous grapes. And the dead N.E.E.T. Children required to avoid gods wrathfull lion's of foreign chastising conquests, as jesus was pro old testament law. really without the brutal prophesied seige of jerusalem in 70A.D. wherein roman "civility" gently inslaved and hollicausted an intire people as per roman tradition. I doubt the slave cult of christianity would've flourished untill today. The conversion and acceptance of thee unmutilated male gentile genitalia, was undoubtedly the key to achieving the numerical crittical mass required to make it into the imperial court. Really it's one of the best historical examples of bad guys lossing to worse guys that i've ever seen. Charlemagnes prophesy's after his death really were just a pale imitation of christs true "magesty". Rome could become "babylon" if a christian slave needed it to be. Roman polytheistic religious freedoms were the perfect vulnerability to exploit, sure there were the "lions" after sacrelige. But which christian wasn't a sinner? So it was still god who desided what your life ended with. "The kingdom" arose as was intended.
DVG45 So how are you suggesting differently? With christian blood bathing within the moral record of hopefully distant history? We have ethics now, hashed out over about a century of secular domination. It's a great scale to measure the virtue of ancestral warcults by. No human nature doesn't change, however if you atleast review biology and psychology studies as to that effect, you'll find abrahamic and samsaric advice about as far from that said observable nature as you can get. And infact i'd possit it's perposefully so. He is definitely lamenting it, but given what he's researching and entertaining - he has a responsibility to understand the very real and dangerous ramifications of the overtonal narrational machanics of the wild and spitefull dragons that he is dancing with. Thoughts proceed actions. And certain thoughts naturally proceed certain actions, perticularly under stress.
DVG45 When the sexual revolution went overboard? In my opinion it has not gone far enough. Sex possitivity should be far more advanced as a norm in our culture than it is right now. But then again... Through another lense... In some ways yes, i'd have to absolutely agree. But at the sametime the sexual revolution was not compatible with our society in the slightest. It's completely antithetical to it. And it's still not compatible either. It's destroying traditional homes, wrecking families. Muchless plumeting the birth rates to unsustainable levels Making even the most extreme levels of tollerated prostition within our westernised societies over the past 3 centuries look like a choir boy in comparison to the devil. Set free on earth, to wreak wanton ha-vok, with all the hounds of hell at his behest. Not that, "that" was understood at the time by it's revolutionary supporters. Despite the overtly voiced and perfectly valid complaints of it's opponents. So yes it's hook up culture, game theory, gold diggers, mass divorce, hypergamy, economic hareemes, serial monogamy and all the culturally psychopathic exploitations of the nuclear model that the sexually chastized demons of societies id can conjur up. In order to glut themselves upon all the myriad treasured vunerabilities that age old traditions once innately protected. Not to mention the annihilating cults like feminisms 3rd wave, MGTOW and the dreaded incels that go off like ISIS jihadis, in this day and age. It's a glorified left right swiping mess. That said, without the lock step supression of human sexuality that came before, the sexual revolution wouldn't of even been so much as desired muchless "apparently" needed. The thing is, there is no ballance to even be struck beween the mechanisms of ethical sexual liberation and moral nuclear traditionalism. It's either a publically beaten, illegalized and underground homosexuality OR a world where dogging("orgies in every field") becomes an olympic sport no more stigmatised than wrestling. Our society is stuck between two places that are completely and utterly incompatable with each other. Inshort: The very morality upon which our society is based on, is incompatable within it's dynamism with the very enlightening ethics we've created that will allow it to thrive. Hook up culture, like all of those other issues is based on elements that don't and can't meld together. So it causes damage. But it's also exactly the very litteral hypocracy that our modern zeitgeist is comfortable with. I'll end this wall of text here - because i can't space on this app.
DVG45 I actually agree with the last bit, there was this alt right speaker, who's name i can't remember for the life of me, was going after one of stefan molyneux's arguments, saying something along the lines of: "people don't want and aren't moved by facts and figures, they want and are moved by poetry and romance." Which is the reason why i'm here listening to jamie wheel talk about ethical cults, because i agree, up to a point where anyone should - who is willing to look at the information through that perticularly disconserting lense. Information has to be simplifed, condensed, themed, spirited and narated. A doctor can fully comprehend an ethic, but almost everyone, even a child can understand morality. Human beings are not not computers, hell most of them aren't even autistic. And i wouldn't call someone with an I.Q. around 100 overly bright. However "translation" is still a possibility, and with an astute, cautious and keen perspective, something grounded within methodic scientific reality more than has the capacity to improve sociological meta of our world.
Understanding this science helps to see into this madness.
I would be curious to know the opinion of Rebel Wisdom crew, Mr. Greenhal, Mr. Wheal and the usual talkers on the channel their opinion about Oswald Spengler's model of civilization seasons.
Thanks for the video, was very interesting.
No this video was not interesting this video will lead you straight into a christless eternity repent you come to Jesus the true Messiah the true savior of the world
@@jamesallen3929 If your belief is so thin that a video such as this can shatter it, the fault is at your feet and not this video. There are religions in the world that may indeed have been called cults at some point in time, but yours has stood the test of time, unlike Scientology which is becoming a corproratisation of religion and asset consolidation. Christianity has been filtered through time showing it's worse faces and sometimes it's best.
Feel embarrassed someone had to remind you of what your faith is supposed to mean. It's not just something you hang around your neck.
Good question around 13:30 about how do we create collaborative structures that are based on "I" but are a "we" due to collaboration? The only answer that I have ever seen look at contract theory as the basis. What are the fundamental aspects of a valid contract? 1) most importantly is a meeting of minds as to what the collaboration is and is not. This notion that there can be a "we" where there is disagreement about what that means is, I think, obviously false. The terms of the collaboration must be clear to all parties who wish to participate. 2) explicit agreement... this should obviously be in writing both to ensure that 1 above is clearly stated and that the clear consent in 2 has occurred in fact.
So there is your answer, and I'd challenge anyone to come up with any other possible answer to this important question. If these conditions are not met, then there is no real "we"... mostly likely just specific "I"s attempting to impose their will on others, which is by definition not a collaboration. See contractarianism for more information.
Note also that there are two general schools of "art". 95% of artists belong to the cathartic school, which sees the purpose of art as introspective and mediative. The other school is cognitive and it includes some surprising people, such as James Joyce. There is no attempt in Joyce to mediate on the side of goodness or even cathartic balance, although many people who miss the message of Joyce mistakenly take him as cathartic. His purpose is to teach humans about the nature of their perceptions and the interplay between human senses, both exterior and interior, and their relationship to technology. Marshall McLuhan writes about this aspect of Joyce more than he does any other artist.
By this list standards, I believe that 99% of the groups I know of are cults. Kind of makes me depressed, I wonder if there are ways to live one's spirituality without falling into one of these groups.
I really enjoy your channel but notice you never interview experts of color? Is that because they aren't there or what?
I'm sure David will. The focus of RW is very specific right now and it seems to me the demographic in those fields is techy, white dudes in their 30s-40s and it's also critical of the same group. I'm sure the scope will continue to expand. I'm just glad RW is one of the few alternative info blogs that hasn't succumbed to cheap, conspiracy theory click-bait nonsense.
New one came out today on Race, Riots and History with a gentleman of colour!
Actually usable info Starts at 18:49
I do know this; I wouldn't want to be a part of a cult that had me for a member.
@27:00 Joe Dispenza is treading that line. Saw Jamie in a photo with him fairly recently and am curious about what experience they’ve had together.
Edit: @33:00 yep that’s Joe Dispenza 101 lol
Have you had bad experiences with Joe Dispenza then?
@@bennytheboy101 No, just curious as to Jamie's thoughts on him seeing as though it's looks like they've had some interactions/discussions.
See this pic:
instagram.com/p/B3NU4wZha5B/
Not a critique just an observation. Joe is definitely one of the leading gurus at the moment.
Us guys did all this years ago - why not we share
Wheal is brilliant within a context that is flawed. The Self-realization games as played by Rajneesh/Osho, Frank Jones/Adi Da, Ken "non-dual" Wilber, and perhaps 'i remember myself" Gurdjieff were always flat, non-starters outside of their consciousness amusement parks. Isn't the urge to define "ethical cult" a reinvention of the wheel?
Sounds very familiar to a relationship I once had with someone with Narcissist Personality Disorder. Whoa
This made me think about Kumare a lot. There was actually an ethical cult pretending to be a culty cult.
13:50 defining the task
Peter Carroll described the demon Choronzon as the shreds of ego that you didn't shed before crossing the abyss. the resulting manifestation is these cult leader dudes who think they are jesus or whatever
the way i describe it is like you're sposed to have done a lot of work to prepare for that godhead kinda experience. and when people get there by doing a buncha acid or whatever, they are bringing their ego along with em to a party it wasn't invited to like tom cruise in eyes wide shut. and rather than experiencing oneness, the ego experiences me-ness. like rather than seeing the inside and the outside are all one, the ego is like this is all about me. i'm the thing. and then spends the rest of it's life propping up that narrative. that's the demon Choronzon.
Thanks for the Doc.
Also, one note! I don't want to be a cow that falls off from a cliff running and following the herd.
I wonder what Jamie thinks of Sadhguru (Jaggi Vasudev).
Ask him.. jamie.wheal@flowgenomeproject.com
Yes intresting.... I would Love to Attend a satsang. Maybe Jamie is full of it too though
Around 17:00 « you can decide to opt out of the United Nations, you can be North Korea or Iran »
WTF? Iran is a founding member of the UN and is an active member of it.
Does this guy think that the UN and NATO are the same thing?
Very surprised by that comment…
This historical cites are incorrect.
The cult of kali was a horrible cult who created assassins to kill in her name (called thuggees).
Cult of Christianity didn’t exist in how he mentions it. Augustus was before Constantine and created the concept of an Imperial cult that Constantine would go on to lean into.
Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.
Too much jargon. Quite culty and excluding in itself. Very telling.
Jamie Wheal is a chatty-catty - as we say here in Germany
@@shawnsteuer9951 I do you know
@@shawnsteuer9951 It's a joke chatty Katy was a speaking doll from the 1950s the joke is we really don't say that in Germany
Careful about giving power to people who rate reliability. That will be a terrible thing to have weaponized as a tool of compliance.
Just wondering why is this checklist behind an email sign up??
I surrender my will, as of this date