404 Jeffery - The Real Gunsmith
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 20 окт 2024
- Randy clears up the misconception that Ultra-Mag cases were developed from the 404 Jeffery case.
Support us on Patreon! / therealgunsmith
Find us on Rumble: rumble.com/v3x...
Find us on Vimeo: www.vimeo.com/...
I have long read about the .404 Jeffrey which has probably shot more African game than any other cartridge, rifles chambered in it used to be issued to the game rangers in most African countries. It was with much anticipation that I sat down to watch this video and I was amazed to hear of the claims of journalists and gun writers about which chamberings this cartridge inspired, so much so I had a quick trawl of the internet to have a look at who was propagating these myths. There are some very big names out there who have got this wrong, not just in magazine articles but in so called "Information Resources." Once again sir you have done the shooting community a service, thank you.
Yeah the 404 jeffry and the 375 H&H Magnum probably have the gold metal for most kills on the planet.
Is it even, alright to say, that a certain ultra mag, was Inspired off the 404 Jeffery case, not based on its actual dimensions. I grew up hearing about wildcating, shooting to expand brass, though it sounded like a bad idea, if it's too much expansion. Salute to the real, proper and analytical builders like Randy. And i was wondering, are chamber cutting reamers single fluted cutters?
I met Elmer Keith once back in them days.this fine gentleman is from the same pedigree .... thank you sir thank you for your wisdom and knowledge
I wish I knew half of what you have forgot! Thanks for all the great videos.
Thanks Mike Leschber!
I don’t guess he’s forgot a helluva lot.
I stand corrected, as an Ultra Mag owner its good to know what and where this caliber is derived from. Thanks Randy!
Also I am a toolmaker and understand what your saying about tolerances. Most people don't. But keep explaining I enjoy the old knowledge!
I grew up around golf. In 1973 I was 10 years old and was being taught the game. After reading some "tip" in the popular golf magazine and asking my instructor about this tip he replied, "Stop reading those magazines, they are just propaganda my manufacturers to sell you stuff." I can see now, how magazines of any subject will leave you confused and getting you away from "the basics". I suggest to anyone to stop with fancy stuff about any subject and go back to the basics.
And Thank You Randy, for making these videos. I am an amateur shooter and have learned more here in the last few weeks since discovering this channel then in the last 10 years since I got back into shooting.
Thanks for watching, AND listening [the two don't always go hand in hand!]. Great advice.
Good shooting.
GOD i live this man. so honest..knows his stuff. as a retired mschinest. im tellin.ya. he knows his stuff.total RESPECT.for this great man.
I despise the writings of most current writers. One that I will not name, but has a radio program on Sunday afternoons, tried to make the point that the 6.5 creedmore kicks the crap out of the 7mm Rem Mag. Give me a break!
Clearly a fantasist. Someone suggested their 6.5 Creedmoor would give my 300 Win Mag a run for its money! 😁 😂 😂 My 300 will annihilate that round in virtually every way.
TheDoctor lols.really. your kiddin..no comparison..
There's so much money pushing the six five NeedMore!
Hornady and Thompson are just trying to dump their 30TC brass...
TheDoctor I agree. If I want a real rifle in 6.5 I’d get a .264 Win or 6.5-.300 Wby or 28 Nosler before I’d ever have 6.5 Creedmoor. JMHO
I suppose the 6.5 Creedmoor is a good dear/antelope round but I would prefer a.270 Win over the 6.5. I think the 6.5 is just a cartridge de jour IMHO.
They were inspired by the .404 Jeffrey cases and the wildcats that people were handloading all over the place. Lots of people were necking down .404 Jeffery cases with sharp shoulders and Remington based their idea for the Ultra Mag on these designs. The change of the case dimensions was for purposes of patents. But there is no doubt the inspiration of the Rem Ultra Mags came from necked down versions of the .404 Jeffery that was popular with handloaders. And in that aspect the RUMs were "based" off the .404 Jeffery...
I used to work for John Martz Luger Carbine maker and had a machine shop at the time. I begin to do some re-engineering of the M14 and the M1 rifle to take the .404 Jeffery cartridge.
Oh my God you really worked for John Martz??? I've admired his work since my childhood and your work on the M14 and M1 using the .404 sounds amazing.
I really wish you would make more videos! I enjoy them greatly!
Reloading info has rum at 550 and 404 Jeffrey at 545. You are correct.
One of the most important tenets of life - humans like to lie and attempt to deceive. And yet, millions will argue that there is good to be found in all people.
One of the few absolutes in life is that there is evil to be found in all people.
Thank you for this video, sir.
Randy, no one seems to not even come close to your knowledge. With every view I am in awe of the way you can take a difficult topic and discuss it in a way every one can understand.
I have a request.
Your thoughts on the 300wm as a round for hunting as well as a defensive round.
Best wishes, smile, be joyful and happy!!
The Real Gunsmith, !!!thank you !!! I've tried to explain this often. It's not based off of, it's a new case perhaps best described as a modified Jeffery's design.
As my poor recollection recalls, Winchester brought out the WSM line circa 1999 and stated all new design case. Boy it didnt take long for "experts" to beat the keyboard and bash Winchester for claiming all new case when in their reality it was a 404 Jeffery's w the rim rebated. No the hades it is not. .540 Jeffery case is not at all the same as .555 WSM CASE. Eventually Winchester simply stopped debating with them and got quiet.
Sheeple seem to believe whatever someone with a name tells them these days....wonder more of them dont hurt themselves or others.
P.S. I've heard rumors that the ranks of guardian angels have been increasing over 100% per year for the last 3 decades. Hear tell they are blaming it on the internet and social media.
Shaking my head laughing silently in astonishment...
God bless you sir! An absolute authority on case dimensions, interchangeability and resizing to various wildcat cartridges. Although, I believe your intent was to compare the 6.5×57 to the 30-06 rather than the 6.5×55 Swede. Additionally, very much appreciated regarding the false marketing attempts for the 'Ultra Mag' claiming to be based off the .404 Jeffrey. Yet I still am a fan of various WSM and WSSM cartridges! I loved how you moved in toward the camera in order to address the manufacturers directly sir.
Randy, thank you again for another wonderful and educational video. I never knew this information and I see your point! Given this information, if one uses a cartridge case that is five thousandths of inch undersized, is the end result (if your lucky) an excessively expanded oversized case during firing or at the very worst, a possible case rupture with dangerous gas blown reward into the shooters face?
Remington says "loosely based on the Jeffery 404 case." You may have seen a gun writer misquote Remington, and that would make the writer the liar, let's be clear on that. The story I was told by a fellow who had a loosely based friendship with Brian McDaniels, who had a loosely based relationship with Remington, was that Remington came to Black Mesa, loosely based in Oklahoma, and picked Brian's brain about his fiddlings with the 404 Jeffery case and different calibers that he was loosely experimenting with. I would suppose using the term, "loosely based" would give one quite a bit of wiggle room as Remington didn't exactly copy McDaniels' fiddlings. They just took his loosely based guidelines and made them even looser for reasons of which we can only speculate, but might have had more to do with potential legal wranglers than it had to do with anything having to do with actual firearm and cartridge performance results, loosely speaking.
I only mention this, not to be a smart ass, but to point out that, in my loosely based experience with this loosely based world of loosely based information on this loosely based internet, there are lots of loosely based opinions of which one would risk a highly likely and well deserved stroke and/or heart attack if they were to attempt to demand the utilization of a mandatory micrometer in order to satisfy and impose their Obsessive Compulsive Disorder on everyone encased in such an environment.
That doesn't mean I don't appreciate accurate information, I do! I'm as OCD or more than most! But it probably isn't good to overlook a loosely based disclaimer and then call it a lie just because your micrometer tells you it's inaccurate. In all things, I find credibility the most exacting endeavor and there are no machinist's tools to measure that. But one can make practically any statement, even calling out a lie, if only one were to offer a disclaimer, such as "loosely based".
"Loosely based" and "Inspired by" are a way to get a well known brand mentioned in your new, unknown product.
so what you're saying is...
@@ronaaserude8225 What I'm saying is: Brian McDaniels at Black Mesa said his Black Mesa Express was based on the .404 Jeffery. Remington didn't want to encounter infringement (IMO) or for some other reason of their own decided to differ when formulating their Ultra Mags. Remington has said their RUM's are "loosely based on the .404 Jeffery case." So when one says something is an outright lie, at least in my book, they should point out who the liar is (Remington or Sports Writers) and if it ain't what they call it, then what the hell is it? Yeah, I get it. Case head is .005 larger. Okay, well if that isn't a Jeffery, once fired, what is it? If TRG said, I missed it. In my line of work, credibility is everything. Without credibility, one has nothing. So when anyone calls out a liar, they had best have all the information to back up that claim. All I heard was what it isn't. Okay, if that isn't what it is, (one more time!) What the hell is it? As far as I can tell, Remington based the RUM's off the BME, which was based on the .404 Jeffery. I think Remington made that clear, so if anyone is lying, it must be the sportswriters and all their guilt lies in a minor omission of the term, "loosely based." Dude, I may be OCD, but I'm not calling anyone a liar over no damn .005"! And if I ever did, I'd damn well state the name of the case it was based on, not just throw the blanket of "that's an outright lie" over a whole bunch of people and act all high and mighty over it. OCD is one thing. Being anal, however, is somewhat subject to interpretation.
What needs to be realized is that this is a man who is from a generation that doesn’t believe in talking in a round about fashion and on top of that he is a man who deals with precision measurements. In other words he has no tolerance for bullshit. So saying something like “ loosely based” probably annoys the hell out of him. Say what you mean and mean what you say. It either is or isn’t and quit dancing around the facts.
Thats my understanding to they made the ultra mag affordable but they got the specks from black masa and changed them a bit and pattened it
Not exactly correct this is the story told by most.
In the early 1980s Aubrey White and Noburo Uno of North American Shooting Systems (NASS) based in British Columbia Canada began experimenting with the full length .404 Jeffery by reducing the taper and necking it down to various calibers such as 7 mm, .308, 311, 338, 9.3 mm and .375. These cartridges were known variously as the Canadian Magnum or the Imperial Magnums. Rifles were built on Remington Model 700 Long Actions and used McMillan stocks. Cartridges were fire formed from .404 Jeffery cases[citation needed] with the rim turned down, taper reduced and featured sharp shoulders.
Both Remington and Dakota Arms purchased the formed brass designed by Noburo Uno for use in their own experimentation and cartridge development. In 1999 Remington released the first of a series of cartridges virtually identical to the Canadian Magnum cartridges which featured a slightly wider body, increased taper, and shallower shoulders and named it the .300 Remington Ultra Magnum. Dakota too released their own version of the cartridge but chose not to turn down the rim and shortened the case to work in a standard length action. Remington would go on to design their own shortened versions of the Ultra Magnum cartridge which they were to call the Remington Short Action Ultra Magnum or RSAUM for short.
I have a 330 Dakota and LOVE IT!!!!!!!!! Built on a Win 70 Push feed with Canjar trigger with 26 Inch Australian made MAB/TSA Barrel. And it shoots!!!! Very efficient. Chronograph 185 Grns at over 3400 Fps and 250Grn Woodleys at 2910FPS.
So what would be the best way to rebarrel something to a 404 and what should be the donor rifle?
Great video. Very helpful. I recently picked up a 333 Jeffery Mauser and I am not sure what to do with it due to the fact I can find any ammo, brass, dies, or information period. I have thought about rechambering the rifle to 404 but still have a tough time bringing myself to take apart this rare classic rifle in hopes that I can find some ammo someday. Just wondering what you would do in my position or if there is anything else for me to consider. Thanks for another great bit of info.
.333 Jeffery Bertram brass, Australiam, is carried by Huntington's 530-534-1210.
AFAIK, there’s not much difference between the 404 Jeffery and and 450/400 NE. If so, can you recommend a powder giving between 2100 and 2200 FPS for a 400 grain which will leave no unburnt granules in the bore in the 450/400 NE? Also assuming reasonable loading density and magnum primers. Tks.
Randy, thank you for sharing this knowledge. Sir, not only do you share knowledge and help people, wildlife, and environment, you do so as a gentleman. In today’s world this is quite rare. What does this show us? That you sir have come from good stock. The greatest result or conclusions of a true masters work, such as yourself, are not only the rifles you build alone. Yes, these precision tools of art leave an outstanding legacy. However when coupled with your willingness to unselfishly share decades of knowledge wisdom and work ethic that apply to all disciplines and life in general become a man’s true gift to history and eternity.
Myself and all should strive for such character sir. May the completion of your life’s work last for years if not decades Randy, thank you.
Thank you so much! We truly appreciate our loyal followers and supporters. May God bless you and yours.
This is very true. When I spoke with Buzz at RCBS, I had him make me case forming dies for 404 Jeffery to case form Dakota and RWS cases to make our 6.5 Dakota. The 300 Ultra Mag case needs to be base formed as well. This requires an additional die to the die set for making a 6.5 Dakota.
What about the 300 wsm and the 25 wssm are these two both come from the 404 Jeffery?
Your point about the 6.5 Swede is exactly why I will NOT buy American brass for my swede. American brass does not have the correct case head diameter. I have no idea whether or not a modern factory built rifle will have a bolt head set up for a .473 rim diameter, but I know my 119 year old Swede does not.
The idea of short, fat cases headspacing on the shoulder is not new but does work. That’s the selling point Dakota rifles used.
the ultlramags are not "based off" the .404. They are "modeled after" the .404. There is a difference.
Disappointed.... I thought this was going to be a talk about the Virtues of the EXCELLENT .404 Jeffery. Not 10 minutes of whinning about how the gun writers and Remington are wrong about the measurement of the Remington Ultra Magnum brass being bigger in diameter then the .404 Jeffery. You should have titled this video How Remington got the claims about the Ultra Mag Wrong.
Another correction that must be made is the difference between the 7mm Mauser and the .275 Rigby which has been perpetuated over W.D.M. Bell and his elephant hunting. Yes he may have fired 7mm Mauser ammunition but he definitely didn’t reload those cases as the would have expanded at the head. The .275 Rigby is 0.004 larger in circumference than the 7mm Mauser at the head. To reload 7mm Mauser cases fired in the .275 Rigby chamber would cause case head separation. Rigby has reissued the Stalker rifle, a copy of Bell’s rifle, chambered in both 7mm Mauser and .275 Rigby. The cartridges and chambers are NOT the same. Thanks for the excellent video Randy and Cathy.
Bell wasn't a reloader. He shot full-patch military ball ammo in his Rigby in 7mm Mauser.
It’s very interesting that Nosler is also doing the same thing with the 28Nosler advertising that it’s a parent case of the 404 Jeffrey.
I want to remember that Winchester based the WSM cases based on the 404 Jeffery or at least what was printed in many gun glossy mags. I know the 7 mm WSM case uses the 404 jeffery shell holder for the RCBS press.
Dam good video keep them coming .
Appreciate the truth & care to address it.
Thank you
Hello Mr Randy, Is the 300 wsm and the 25 wssm base on the 404 Jeffery?
No. The only cartridges made off of the .404 Jeffrey are Dakota's and mine. Thanks for watching.
I agree about gun writers selling hype not common sense these days. About the only one I trust is John Barsness.
Do a video on the 9.3x62 as my cases are expanding and I haven’t had an issue so far
Try reading about the new, .429 Desert Eagle in this moths, Guns and Ammo, the writer says there is a mechanism to prevent, round from coming into the chamber too quickly. I though it was pretty confusing.
Long live the 300 Remington Ultra Mag!! I always have read the .300 Rum was from the Jeffery. Wikipedia says so lol
" Loosely Based " not exacting .
@@johnwallace1729who cares 300rum a great round
I had a Ruger #1 in .416 Rigby. Amazing caliber. Sako are good weapons too. Back then, I had a Sako 375 H&H converted to the 404 Jeffery caliber by a Nuremberg gunsmith. A .416 Rigby would not have fit into the system.
I talked to a ultra mag shooter in AK who had to go to a tree to remove the fired case. I offered to load him some a few grains lighter ammo, he declined . The guys had rifles but no ammo , I loaded some ammo at Kotzebue AK for them .
Thanks for the explanation , Randy . Now I know better than to use 30-06 brass to form 6.5x55 Swedish . Not that I've ever done so . You're Gentleman and a Scholar .
What do you think about the performance of the newer .375 Ruger, and .416 Ruger cartridges?
Good rounds. Both need a muzzle brake to shoot, as they have heavy recoil.
Great vid as usual. Keep 'em coming...
If I was a writer for a firearms magazine. I would try and make this man right here MR.RANDY SELBY my best friend. This man has pissed more knowledge about every aspect of designing, manufacturing, maintaining, and shooting than 99.99999999999999999% of us will ever know. This man is a walking school , no he's a walking College.
Thanks so much Adam Shumate.
The first thing this professor would tell you is to get the "h" out of our last name. ;) Selby.
@@TheRealGunsmith yes sure. Autocorrect, ya got to love it.
The Real Gunsmtih's Wife, Cathy: I figured it was autocorrect. I want to smack AC around some for some of the understandable to bizarre mistakes it makes in correcting spelling. Especially dealing with firearms related lingo...OMG! LOL
Thanks for watching and the kind comment. We are truly humbled and appreciative of all the support and following.
God bless!
Can you do a video on the 500 Jeffery?
I have a long list of "to do's" in mind. I'll take it under advisement.
Thanks for watching. May you and yours stay well and safe.
Next Video: How you can rechamber a rifle to .404. Easiest/best/most cost effective
How do you feel about the 8mm rem mag
I think it's a good cartridge.
Thanks for watching.
@@TheRealGunsmith can you do a video on the 8mm rem mag it's kinda of an almost obsolete cartridge and there's not a whole of info our there on it I've been interested in the cartridge for several years and have recently gotten enthusiastic about it again a good friend of mine recently inherited one and has asked me to load some shells since they are so expensive
Enjoy all your videos. I also would love to see a video on the 8 mms Remington Magnum. I bought a Remington 700 BDL in that cartridge a few years ago. Never took it hunting yet. Shoots excellent. Keep up the great knowledge that you share!
I wouldn't want to be alone in a room with this man if I was the fella who originally claimed that the ultramag cases are based off the .404 Jeffrey.
As a retired machinist. It's so easy to see 5 thou.is dangerous. To much expansion.
Randy you get time I'm sure im.not tge only one, other than 404 jefferey what else is practical to rechamber say 405 win up to jefferey level performance? I like the .411 diameter though
A real legend!
Sir have you ever worked with straight wall carts
Only .405 Win. & 45-70.
Thanks for watching.
@@TheRealGunsmith in your opinion which do you like better
Wasn't the video I was expecting.
Dakota Rifles built rifles around the .404 Jeffrey before most companies I believe.
Yes, they were. And I was about 15 years ahead of them with my development.
Love your videos!!!
My last name is Jeffery. My ancestors came to America in the mid 1700's. I wonder if there might be any connection...would be interesting to try and find out.
I don't pay ANY attention to the gun rags. With exception of Craig Boddignton. He sounds like his sh*t is in order but I'm subject to correction.
The 6.5x55 came before the 30-06 anyway didn't it? And the 30-06 is technically based off of the 7x57
So, my idea of rebarreling my spare .375 rum to 404 jeffery isn't going going to be so simple.
Could you tell me about the 284 Winchester please and thank you
Stay tuned. There may be a video on it eventually. Thanks for watching!
Yes please, I have a 284, and I love it.
It's like people saying that the parent case for the .270 Winchester is the .30-06. The parent case for BOTH cartridges is the .30-03 Springfield. If you run a .30-06 case in a .270 sizing die, you get a cartridge with a much shorter neck than the factory .270 Winchester. How can the .30-06 be the parent case when it doesn't have enough length to form from?
But your assuming that way back around 1925, that the designers of the first ever concept casing for the development of the 270 could not have simply necked down 06 brass, and later during development for whatever reason, altered the design to have a slightly longer neck.
@@davidoakley3256 not assumption at all-the 03 brass is the parent for BOTH newer rounds as stated above. It's a matter of history plain and simple. The main reason being to prevent people from loading 270 ammo in a .30-06 rifle.
Bullet diameter will change case length. When you change the neck of the case to a certain bullet diameter the over all length will change.
This video should be titled; “What The 404 Jeffery Isn’t”.
I love the 404 because it birthed the WSMs!
I don't know about that. Winchester doesn't claim that. The cartridge drawing in the Hornady #8 manual lists .555" at the base of the .300 WSM. That's even more larger than the Ultra Mags.
Can you build me a bolt action rifle, based on the
600 nitro express case - necked down to .375 firing 275gr & heavier bullets that will out preform the .338 Lapua, the .300-378 Weatherby & the .408 Cheytac.
Would like a barrel length of 36 to 40 inch - 1-9" / 1-9 1/2 " / 1-10" twist / 1-11 or what ever your experience tells you is best. I want this rifle for extreme long range target & long range goat, elk and African plains game hunting. I need to know if this is even possible.
Jerry, this is not possible. Big rimmed cases were designed to work off break open double rifles. I can build a .375 or .408 Cheytac extreme long range rifle. This would fit your desires.
To keep from flags raised with YT send an email and I can detail with price, to randyselby@randyscustomrifles.com.
See a similar rifle on FB page: facebook.com/463051773786863/photos/a.579091295516243.1073741837.463051773786863/579091422182897/?type=3&theater
☆☆☆Hey "Randy"☆☆☆
Could I get a .700 H&H built based on the .17 HMR ????
SEE OTHER COMMENT below....
Makes sense to me!
Tuned in to hear about a 404 jeffery n all I got was a rant about RUM. Lol
I've always been partial to the 338 Black Mesa Express, based off of the .404.
Then you should know the RUM's are based off the .338 BME.
Randy, i bet when they made the move ""shooter"" with mark Wahlberg the gunsmith character was based off of all your knowledge
Well, thanks for the compliment, but I doubt it!
Thanks for the interesting misinformation about the ultra mag. I was hoping to hear a little about the 404 Jeffrey. Maybe next time.
I shoot a 404 necked down to a 30 cal bullet.. it's called the 300 ED.. (Everything Dies..)
Does "based on" mean necked down then? "Based on" seems like a pretty loose term to me! But what do I know?
It just means that it was the starting point. If you cut it to 1.5" long and necked it down to .17 or left it straight walled, it's still based on whatever case you started with.
similar to 338 lapua “based on” 416 rigby
Called the parent case in some circles.
Respect
I think the new gun writers don't try to find out for themselves it's a lot of copy and paste which is a shame I love Jordan ,Keith, Skelton but it bad when Bob forker gets it wrong
Wish someone would make 404 jeff brass quality tgat is not hornady
Now I know thank
Talking nonsense.
I think Dakota Arms popularized these .404 Jeffrey case-based rounds.
Some People just won't listen to the truth even when it is put right in front of their ears! And some of them will hate you for it because they are too 🦐 tupid to have to admit to the fact that they are wrong! After a while,i guess a person has to give up on them!You can't fix STUPID!
Why has nobody put a 6.5 bullet in a 30-06 case?
Like your videos.
This was done 60+ years ago and is still being done.
Lol build rifles? The shop looks like a cabinet makers shop.
From Cathy, The Real Gunsmith's Wife: Watch these videos which is just a small sampling of the wood work he does to build a fully custom wood stock. ruclips.net/video/pvq2bRXEs8w/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/TkMIVn8xU6g/видео.html
And lastly, this is a rifle he finished earlier this year. With those tools you see in the background. ruclips.net/video/ygmGv_v4h0E/видео.html
Thanks @William Luffey !
Nomlas { Dumbass} Rellic You Win The Dildo Of The Web 2020 Award .
@@johnwallace1729 lmfao 2yrs later wake up junior
He repeats himself about twenty three times.
Kinda like CNN
how about you talk about 404 jeffery? all this video you just talked about who lie and how good you are . nothing professionally about 404 jeffery
I think you’re just hung up on the wording of what Remington has said and taking “BASED ON” too literally. Versus actually built from the .404 Jeffries case.
And frankly you haven’t got answers back from magazines and writer because, frankly nobody else cares this much.
What a wonderful storyteller. I wonder if he could ever do enough killing animals because it exillrrates him , apparently. I believe that he has now met his maker, and can tell him how much he enjoyed killing his animals. I think it would be karma if he reincarnated as a lion and was hunted down , killed and skinned by his son who also apparently likes this kind of chap.