6.5 Grendel vs 243 Winchester
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- Опубликовано: 6 сен 2024
- Welcome to the Ron Spomer Outdoors Podcast! In this episode, I answer a listener's question about the 6.5 Grendel vs. the 243 Winchester.
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Who is Ron Spomer
For 44 years I’ve had the good fortune to photograph and write about my passion - the outdoor life. Wild creatures and wild places have always stirred me - from the first flushing pheasant that frightened me out of my socks in grandpa’s cornfield to the last whitetail that dismissed me with a wag of its tail. In my attempts to connect with this natural wonder, to become an integral part of our ecosystem and capture a bit of its mystery, I’ve photographed, hiked, hunted, birded, and fished across much of this planet. I've seen the beauty that everyone should see, survived adventures that everyone should experience. I may not have climbed the highest mountains, canoed the wildest rivers, caught the largest fish or shot the biggest bucks, but I’ve tried. Perhaps you have, too. And that’s the essential thing. Being out there, an active participant in our outdoor world.
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All loading, handloading, gunsmithing, shooting and associated activities and demonstrations depicted in our videos are conducted by trained, certified, professional gun handlers, instructors, and shooters for instructional and entertainment purposes only with emphasis on safety and responsible gun handling. Always check at least 3 industry handloading manuals for handloading data, 2 or 3 online ballistic calculators for ballistic data. Do not modify any cartridge or firearm beyond what the manufacturer recommends. Do not attempt to duplicate, mimic, or replicate anything you see in our videos. Firearms, ammunition, and constituent parts can be extremely dangerous if not used safely.
243 is such a phenomenal cartridge
Agreed. Great for coyotes, deer and antelope.
My wife and all my kids use it as they develop and move up to bigger rounds.
Under rated for sure!
I've used a lot of cartridges in my hunting career. One of my favorite chamberings have been a 6mm-06 AI. Basically just a faster 243. 243win is a 100gr @ 2950 fps to 3000fps and the 6mm-06AI is 100gr @ 3250-3300 fps. Supurb deer and antelope round. Very accurate & you can get some laser beams out of the 75-80Gr mono bullets @ 3500 fps
Agreed, I use the nearly identical 6mm Remington. Perfect cartridge for Texas whitetails.
Some European urban snipers, SWAT equivalent types, say that, because most urban sniping situations are 75 meters or less, the 243win is the perfect weapon. Extremely fast, energetic, flat shooting, the cartridge provides everything that they require. I can say with certainty that an 85 gr soft point poked a hole clean through 1/2” AR-550 steel at 35 meters.
As a Grendel Hunter, I can attest to the performance on Whitetails in the Southeastern US. The 120 grain Federal Fusion has performed very well and dropped several deer on the spot and on another, a very short blood trail. I'm sure the .243 is just as good given the right bullet in the vitals. I think you can't go wrong either way. Thanks for sharing Ron! God Bless our Fallen Troops on this Memorial Day.
I can attest to the performance in Indiana. I run a 105gr MKZ in a 24" upper at 2800 fps at the muzzel.. It's a tack driver. Farthest whitetail so far has been a 185 lb 8pt that was quartering heavy away. Clean pass through with well over 24" of penetration. Good blood trail. He went about 60 yds. Farthest kill was 700 yds on a prairie dog.
But Memorial Day is tomorrow???
@@danielcurtis1434 "this" meaning "this upcoming Memorial Day"...I'm assuming.
I love my grendel. I use a 123 SST for SE white tail and a 129 SST for hogs in FL. Personal preference on your bullet and barrel of your grendel.
I sold my .243 “AR10” but kept my 6.5x39 “AR15”. I even used Winchester XP solid copper impacts in my .243 and it didn’t do any better than my grendel and my grendel isn’t as heavy romping around the marshes and SE forest area.
Hey Stephen - what distance were you at? We use .243 out several 100 yards here in Texas.
The sweet spot bullet for Game Hunting in the Grendel is the 123gr SST.
At 400yds it still is above a 1,000fps of energy. We have taken 8 Elk with the 6.5 Grendel and youth hunters 200-400yds.
It's works very well!
You really shouldn’t be shooting youth hunters
@@treytharpe9917Yukyukyuk!
I've never been able to get a youth hunter tag.
The 243 is a very underated deer hunting round. That said, rated velocities are rarely reached from the rifles that it tends to be chambered in. While handloaders with 22-24" barrels can reach the 3000 fps range with 95-100 grain bullets, the more typical loads in a 20" to maybe 22" tube will only give 2750-2850 fps.
The original loading from Alexander arms in 6.5 grendel was a 129gr sst and Lapua scenar. Both loads have a .500+ BC. AND they rated their velocities out of a 18" barrel at around 2350. The case is really much more suited to the 100-123 grain projectiles. From the more standard 18" AR-15 barrel length, 123 grain projectiles run about 2475 fps. However, when running in a 20-22" barrel standard 123 gr loads push between 2500-2600.
A 100 gr .243 load with a BC around the mid .400s starting at a more real world 2800 fps from a typical 20" barrelled bolt gun really doesn't hold an advantage over a similar sized Howa 1500 mini action running 123gr 6.5 bullets with a BC of .510 at about 2550.
The specific load in the 6.5 grendel above is the very generic and common Hornady SST loading. At 400 yards it is retaining pretty much right at 2000 fps and 1000 ft/lb still when shot out of a 22" barrel. AR-15 and Ruger American ranch rifles with 16-18" barrels start about 100fps behind it giving similar performance at around 300-325.
Most standard factory loads in a 243 in similar rifles will fall behind the 6.5 grendel at range in impact energy. But that range is far beyond the more typical ranges where most animals are killed. Between 100 and 300 yards, neither man nor beast is likely to be able to tell the difference.
Surely a bullet like the 115gr Barnes vor-tx tsx bullet in a longer barreled 6.5 grendel would very likely be plenty for any big game up to elk within about 250 yards. Id rather that setup with the extra diameter and bullet weight over a .243 even though a bonded lead or all copper load in it would certainly do fine as well. Neither would be my first choice whatsoever but most hunters are dramatically over-gunned for their quarry. There had been a lot of elk killed with lowly lever gun chambering and black powder guns, like say the 44-40, and I'd take either a 243 or 6.5 grendel over a 44-40 in basically every imaginable scenario. The 44-40 has lay claim to a tremendous amount of game up until about 75 years ago. And similar or lesser calibers have as well.
I love the Grendel and 6.8 SPC, but i dont think its fair to compare them to cartridges that have over 10 grains more powder capacity. I would surely hope that a .243 Win, 308, 7-08, or 6.5 CM would offer some significant advantages at any appreciable distance. The amazing thing is how close the Grendel and 6.8 can hang with those cartridges out to 300 yds whether on fur or on paper. That exceeds the needs and capabilities of a large portion of hunters, especially those who are not out west in the prairies and mountains. Having said that, my farthest kill with my grendel is 700 yds on a prairie dog 😉
in terms of muzzle energy 243 win (1950fpe) is in between 6.5 grendel (1573fpe) and 308 win (2700fpe). For deer inside of 300 yards, 6.5 grendel and 243 win are both extremely viable options, so I think its fair to compare. A hunter may face having to pick between the two, amongst the many other cartridges that are low recoiling and feasible for deer
@@jackmemphis777 Fair point. The better question is probably "What can a 243 do that a 6.5 Grendel can't?" The answer is: Inside 300 yards, not much, beyond 300 yds, quite a bit.
@@nospam3409 true the 243 has a slight advantage at longer range. Got this from a forum I was reading: Give the 243win a high BC bullet, say, the 108 ELD-M, which will run a .536G1 and leave the station about 2950 without breaking a sweat - at 500yrds, it's sitting on 1100 ft.lbs. Kinetic Energy, to the 123 SST Grendel's 889 ft.lbs
@@jackmemphis777sst is a poor choice of grendel. Cavity back 118 grn. It opens to a 70 caliber mushroom and has 2550fps from a 18in barrel. Or federal fusion 120 grn. Both are terminally much more effective.
The Grendel is such a great little round. I wish more people knew about it and it was more popular. If it were i think we'd find more options in ammo and bullet selection.
Steve
100% agree with you. It is mil-spec round for many EU countries and wolf ammo was very reasonable to buy in 500rd cases around 3yrs ago. Now it has doubled in price for the same 500rd case. Also all of the other options are very expensive. Hornady, Federal, etc. all have a good selection of rounds they are just too expensive IMO. My goal is to end up reloading them myself in bulk.
I agree. I think that the Grendel is, unfortunately, unpopular simply because that it is so small that people think "how could that tiny cartridge be effective?" The fact is it is very efficient, effective, and flat shooting.
I appreciate your vast knowledge and no-nonsense approach to this stuff, Ron.
I live in Wyoming, I have a 6.5 Grendel and hunt with Hornady 123gr SST. A good friend and hunting buddy of mine hunts his deer and antelope with a 243 Winchester with Hornady 100gr Whitetail. I have seen him drop deer in their tracks at ranges over 200yds with his 243 and he has witnessed me drop deer at ranges over 200yds with my 6.5 Grendel. Both cartridges are extremely effective if the bullet is put in the right place.
I have a Ruger American Predator in 6.5 Grendel. With its 20” barrel, I chrono’d my 123 Hornady Black ELD-Ms at 2,600 FPS. With a BC of .506 you get some very good performance out to 400-450 yds. You toss that against the 95 grain federal fusions in 243 and they are so close it’s almost negligible. Until you get to that 400+ mark and that’s where the Grendel really starts to take over. But if you are trying to stay around that 1,000 ft/lbs then both are going to be great 400 yds and under. Even with my 16” AR I have taken deer out to 350 yds with it.
Shot placement is just as important as energy if not more
That 243 is still an "Oldy" and a "Goldy". Maybe I am wrong on the spelling though. Cheers to all from Australia.
Hi Ron, from your own website, you published the ballistic table for (what is probably the most common 6.5 Grendel Hunting load) the 123 hornady SST, with muzzle velocity of 2580 fps. At 400 yards, that bullet, with a BC of 0.510 is still going 1939 fps (vs expansion recommendation of 1800 fps) and has retained over 1000 fpe --- DOUBLE of the 500 fpe you gave it credit for in this video. I've been shooting and chronoing 6.5 grendel out of 20" Howa 1500 and 18" ARs and the muzzle velocity in those are over and or right around 2500 fps.
according to your ballistics chart on your "little cartridge that could" page, that 123 sst is going 1796 fps at the 500 yard mark, so even with the slightly lower muzzle velocities of those practical length barrels, they still meet hornday's recommend impact velocity of 1800 fps out to 400 yards.
I can also testify to the effectiveness of the 123 sst on mule deer. I watch my wife anchor a 4x4 buck with a shoulder shot with complete pass through and devastated vitals. Impact velocity would have been 2350 fps from her 6.5 CM that she shot 300 yards across an south dakota open prairie ravine. We certainly know how effective the 123 SST bullet is at moderate impact velocities.
I know in this video you referenced the 129 grain bullet from a 6.5 Grendel. I've been shooting that 129 accubond LR from an 18 inch AR rifle at a muzzle velocity of 2405 fps, and it has retained 1857 fps at 400 yards and hits with 989 fpe. I haven't had a chance to hunt with that bullet yet, but i think that might be an even more effective large-deer combo given the lightly bonded construction.
I can't speak to the ballistics of 6mm/243 loads since i dont' have any of those, but i did want to make sure to note that the 6.5 Grendel ballistics that you quote in this video are only one-half of my field-measured results with the 6.5 Grendel cartridge.
2580 from a 24" barrel straight from Hornady's website.
Thank you for this breakdown. .243 is fantastic, and I'm also a 6.5 Grendel fanboy.
2 of my favorite calibers they both work perfectly for their given tasks. Thank you Ron for another great video. Have a great Memorial day.
I grew up shooting .243, took my first deer with it.
But years ago I discovered 6mm PPC, and then when 6.5 Grendel became mainstream, I started using it in my AR.
6.5 works very well, suppresses well, and is capable of great accuracy. The 123gr SST is great deer and small hog medicine.
Both work great. .243 is absolutely proven on Whitetail with the standard 100 grain load. 6.5 Grendel is the newcomer and is going to do the same with a slightly heavier bullet but still mainly a Whitetail load. As with all the bullet placement is the killer and performance of the bullet.
There both great but 6.5 Grendel is my favorite cartridge. Works in an ar-15, supresses well, easy to load for. You can get really good velocity shooting a 100g monolithic bullet for hunting or shoot 129 for long distance shooting.
The 6.5 Grendel is a great whitetail cartridge, if you are using an AR receiver.
The .243 is a flatter shooting and is far more versatile (easier to make hits) farther out, especially on lighter body game where you can use lighter, faster bullets.
Love the 6.5 Grendel only taken two deer with it so far and both of them one shot kills one drop one ran 35 yards.
Both are great. I use the grendel quite a bit. Pronghorn, deer, elk. It works just fine at 350 yards and in.
Love your show !
I like both cartridges, and thanks for a great presentation Ron
I have used the 22-250 alot in the southern US hunting in several states and have had great success with a 55 grain nosler ballistic tip i dont know if it is because im using a smaller caliber and i make a better shoot because of this but it is the only round that i have never had to track an animal they have always fell in there tracks
Been hunting deer here in the PNW with the 6.5 Grendel for years now. The .243 is an excellent round but for me I prefer to use the Grendel in a light AR patern rifle for hiking around the mountains of OR/WA/ID/MT/WY. Ive even taken several cow elk with thr Grendel and they all died within 100yds of where they were shot.
When harvesting coyote I really lean on the "knock down" power of the .458 Win Mag and nothing less. Unless of course I'm using .17 HMR; speed is everything there.
The 6.5 Grendel using my load with an Accubond LR is using .529 G1 BC, so it's a good bit better on that side. My load is moving out at 2551 without high pressures and that's actually 10% sub maximum load. The 243 also has to use a lot more powder getting there.
I have both. Typical factory guns available in each chambering with factory loads. 6.5 grendel in ar and 243 in bolt - 243 has advantage. 6.5 grendel in a bolt gun with handloads - very slight downrange advantage grendel (120 at 2600). However agree splitting hairs- my bolt grendel is more accurate in my case and I like getting same or slightly better performance with 10 grains less powder and a small primer.... A faster twist 243 with 100+ high bc bullets (a 6 creedmoor) would definitely overcome any grendel advantage but I love the efficiency of the grendel maximized in a bolt gun.
I definitely agree that a bolt grendel, like my howa 1500 mini action with a Sporter contour 22" barrel, is a very fine example as to what a grendel really is capable of. The standard 16-18" barrels in most AR-15s due handicap it to a notable degree.
@@bryantitus6634 just my .02¢. The big advantage a bolt Green has over an AR Gren is the operating system. The AR looses too much velocity for a good comparison.
Both calibers are way under rated IMO. Ammo selection and shot placement is going to be the deciding factor between these two.
@@GB-zi6qr I agree, but at the same time, the grendel can't be pushed too much above what factory ammo brings even in the bolt gun. Due to the small case capacity being pretty much perfectly balanced to achieve given velocities, even relatively small bumps in powder can spike pressures faster than more typical 308 or 30-06 based cases would. Sure, you can gain some velocity above factory loads intended not to surpass the ar-15's 55k psi upper limit and run up towards the 60-62k psi most modern loading run but you likely won't gain a tremendous amount as you probably would only be adding less than a full grain of additional powder.
@@bryantitus6634 I completely agree and I think we're saying the same thing from different angles of approach.
My thinking is the .243 is not a popular chambering for the AR-10. Therefore a comparison of the 2 would have to be in a bolt gun platform. Personally, the comparison would be moot due to case capacity differences.
Both calibers have advantages and which one is better is all opinion.
@@GB-zi6qrthe 243 loses a lot going to shorter barrels. Barrels less than 20" place it below the 6.5 grendel in muzzle energy with the same barrel length. And they have a lot of muzzle blast at that length.
I am not of fan of all the 6.5's but for some reason I love the 6.5 grendel its probably my favorite ar I have. Its for groundhogs, coyotes, and just plinking.
Big land owner in Texas shot a elk on his property at 30 yards with 7.62x39 shot in shoulder it dropped. He used 125 barnual soft point thoe leave 16 inch muzzle at 2500 fps 😊
243 have been youth deere rifles here for decades. Ar-15 chambered in 6.5 Grendel is even better in size , packaging and recoil for those very slight in frame. 6.5 g is based on 7.62x39 and in moderate ranges typical in hunting in the eastern half of the usa. Its very effective if you dont try to stretch its leg’s beyond 250 yds.
I love the .243 for coyotes, and I have taken 1 deer with it, but for deer in the woods I'd rather use a .35 Rem. with a 100 grain Buffalo Bore cartridge.
35 rem is my favorite for deer also. Except here we have a lot of brush so I use 200 grain power points. It plows through the brush without much if any deflection.
@@northwoodsdad7506 LOL, Sorry, I meant 200 grain. 100 grain is for the .243
Grendel is extremely underrated. It’s actually better than a 308 after 500 yds. It’s big advantage is you can shoot it out of the AR15 platform and it doesn’t have much recoil. I know a few guys that made AR pistols and in Grendel and take deer with them.
I looked at Nosler Ammunition, and no where does the 6.5 Grendel have more energy than the 308, regardless of hunting ammunition type. The only 6.5 Grendel ammo that exceeds 308 past 500 yards is 129gr Accubond long range and comparing it to 110 gr Varmageddon 308 rounds!
@@dundonrl a Hornady 123 gr sst has 1804 fps, 889 ftlbs, and a 50.9” drop at 500 yds. A 308 125 gr sst has 1437 fps, 573 ftlbs, and a 63.2” drop at 500 yds. A 308 150 gr sst has 1826 fps, 1,110 ftlbs, and drops 46.9” at 500 yds. It takes more powder, a heavier bullet, a larger casing, and more recoil to beat it.
@Coyote112 12 I notice you used a Custom Lite load that the Grendel barely beat. A fair comparison is the 6.5 Creedmoor vs 308, not a 6.5 Grendel because it's just too slow!
The 308 with the proper bullet and load is light years beyond anything the Grendel can produce. I hunt hogs with both calibers and the penetration and damage caused by the 308 is much greater than the Grendel. I like the Grendel but a 308 it is not my friend.
Good one Ron, thank you! You know I have a little game with the Seely clan. Whenever we are together often times I'll roll your Q&A videos back, play them again for all to hear, and then stop it and we all try to guess what your answer will be. This time none of us could agree. The girls looked up the Grendel and were all slanted toward it being more effective. But my wife and I have seen her put down animals with her 243 too many times. Call it bullet placement, distance, BC; all are important but our shots are rarely over 200yards and that 243 is still carrying a lot of speed and the potential for tissue destruction by hydroshock. I'll say it this way...If you are going to be diligent with bullet placement and you have a good hunting bullet construction, go afield with the 243 without fear and thinking that the 6mm bullet is too small to be effective. I can easily say it is definitely lethal for deer.
Thanks Ron for all you do, a fellow Idahoan showing his gratitude and feeding the algorithm 👍🏼
6.5 Grendel is best if your running an AR over the 243. I run the 115 Barnes ttsx in mine and love it, deer, hogs, coyotes works great. In a bolt gun I run 243 shooting 87gr bergers and it’s like a laser out to 400 yards and that’s further than I’ll shoot at night time. Both have there place
The Grendel with the 123 gr bullet has over 1,000 FPE at 400 yards and 881 FPE at 500 yards
The Grendel is great for fallow, I've had them all drop on the spot, although I did have one stand and look at me for several seconds before keeling over backwards. I found the Nosler 120grn BT to be the best, I tried Sierra 120 grn SP but they didn't penetrate very well.
My 6.5g I use hornady 123gr sst with a .510 bc that are pushing over 2500 fps out of my 20" ss 5r rifle. It's surprising to me It'll do so well and even the fact it's compared to the 243 speaks volumes for advances in tech. the 6.5g had its reputation dragged all over cause of the type 1 & type 2 in both chamber and also the cartridge. not to even mention the ego's of it's creators. In my mind it's what the AR/M16 should have been chambered in.
I’ve been 6.5 Grendel curious for a few years. But, already own 2 in a 6.5 variety. I could use another 6 or even a 7. However, the problem with 243 is the factory twists. One of my shooting buddies has a 6 BR and that thing is hell on wheels.
The 6mm Rem had a 10 twist but 243s have had 8 and 9 twist. I've been shooting 243s since 1980 and never had an issue trying to stabilize bullets.
@@crashdsnowman1 probably not with 8. My 243 rifle has 9 and won’t stabilize anything longer that 100 grains
This is apples and oranges. 243 is a AR10 sized cartridge. The 6.5 Grendal is a AR15 sized cartridge. 6.5 Creedmoor is a more accurate comparison to the 243. The Grendal is a nice alternative to the 223 not the 243.
It's all fubar, by design. 6.5 CM comes close to 243 case cap, but is a whole different animal with sleek, long, larger and heavier projectiles. Maybe 243/6 CM? The whole debate stinks.
Taking actual real world performance from a 243 and a 6.5 grendel out of typical 20" or 22" bolt actions will show that the 6.5 grendel is really not very far off from a .243 at all.
The 6.5 grendel case is more efficient and uses less powder to reach similar energy levels in typical barrel lengths.
In an AR platform with shorter barrels, the 6.5 gives up enough to make a separation from most .243s. that being said, a shorter barreled .243, like what would be the norm in a AR10, would fall behind a 6.5 grendel in function. The .243 suffers in short barrels where a grendel loses very little by comparison. A 6lb AR-15 is far handier than a 8lb ar-10 and they would perform in the real world tremendously similarly.
Both are fantastic rounds.
What Im really hoping to see here some day is for the new SIG bi-metal case technology to trickle down to other calibers because a 6.5 Grendel with some added velocity combined with it being in an AR15 platform would be even more incredible a hunting round. .243 is a fantastic round and my step-sons first hunting rifle is a .243 but Im extremely happy with my 6.5 Grendel for hunting here in the PNW.
The bolt is the limiting factor. Due to the larger case head diameter it results in less steel thickness in the locking lugs on the bolt(AR) hence the 52,000 chamber pressure rating. Bolt actions can load hotter.
I use both - I typically get a blood trail from 120 grain Federal Fusion 6.5 Grendel hits, 95 grain Federal Fusion .243 works very well, but I rarely get a blood trail from that (in both instances, the deer I've taken have gone less than 60 yards every time though.)
I know this is an older vid, but I always have to chuckle when I see comments like "it's too small" etc. I live in Montana and I grew up using my mom's 222 on Whitetail, Mule and Antelope. I've never had one issue with it. I'm using a Grendel now and LOVE it. BTW I still have that triple deuce and I will NEVER get rid of it it's an awesome rig I can use on so many things.
6.5 grendel 130gr sierra gamechanger @2440fps has been working great for white tail deer. Last season my hunting partner took a 234lb buck @ 150ish yards.
But ammo availability and reloading supplies are scant. Thanks Hornady for abandoning us grendel shooters.
What do you mean hornady abandoned grendel shooters? Did they stop making grendel cartidges?
@@Daniel-wk5ibno
I like both cartridges, and thanks for
I have both. And the 243 is on the shelves. Not so with Grendel's.
I always enjoy your videos. I’m going to say that I’ve seen a lot of calibers fail on big mule deer buck. Yes, even the venerable 30-06 & 308 & 270 win. The best of my understanding. It’s Probably caused by cheap ammo. As far is the .243. When I started using grand slam in 100 grain. My loss rate became nominal. My conclusion is… Use high end projectiles, like Swift sirocco two or A-Frame, Nosler Accubound or parttion, Barns, Norma oryx or bond strike, grand slam * Not commercially noted currently
I consider an animal lost. When it is Critically hit and not recovered.
Remington 700 in .243. Deer fall just fine. Always my go to for a kill. When i get to my gun cabinet, it's just a "how i feel atm" most of the time anyway. 3030, 308, 7rem mag, 3006, 303 british, 45 70, 12 g slug gun, All good options in my disposal. 223, 7.62x39, usually left behind for range only. Last year i put a yankee hill can on my g21. Took a doe from about 15 yrds. 45 acp didn't slam her, but she took the nap. Made it 250 yrds or so. Good blood trail. This year, i got a 300 bo with subs, can't wait to try. Goin for those quiet kills. Shoot what you want, moral of the story.
I use 120-123 grain HP bullets from a 20" barrelled AR in 6.5 Grendel. It's a beast! A lot LESS recoil than the 243; which I love, and used for years. 22" barrel, 100 grain SP.
As I get older, I need Lower recoil! It's all in shot placement. Get one in the lungs, or upper neck. Years ago, I could put the shot at the top of the neck, just below the ears. Dropped them in their tracks! No one could believe it.
They are both great rounds. Close enough in ballistics that a deer won't know the difference if he's been shot by either one. Imo the only difference or selling point with the grendel is you can use it in an AR 15 type gun, which is nice if you hunt with or already own that type of weapon. If you're gonna be using a bolt action for hunting I think the 243 has the advantage because of ammo availability and its long history of being a good deer round. I've been using the 243 for about 45 years.
I don't own an AR 15 style firearm anymore, but if I ever buy another, and there's one in 6.5 grendel available at my buddy's gun store, I'd probably be tempted to get it.
What ypur missing Ron is Arrows slice. Yes 100% Hemorraging. But a bullet TIPS tissue. A broad head slices. Sliced bleeds more bleeds faster and bleeds longer. They dont carry allot of energy.
Bullets need a level of velocity to create hydrostatic shock. This starts @ 1800 ish and is fully developed about 22/2300 fps. This allows serious disruption of soft tissue. Energy is important, velocity is hand in hand important.
Arrows slice but also make blood pressures drop to zero if you pop the heart
I use 6.5 grendel hornady sst 123gr. And at 50 -80 yards or so the deer go right down, the round mushrooms leaving a softball sized opening inside. It does disrupt a lot and I did get a lung, not the heart
Mr. Ron is The Man. Love watching your vids brother. Keep up the good work young man. Keep shootin straight!
Thank you Frank.
Thank you for your efforts and dedication to the facts. Personally I believe that catagorising bullets effectiveness should include user effectiveness. Pour - fair - good and excellent SHOT PLACEMENT CAPABILITIES. A fair shot with a 30-06 try's to be as effective as good shot with a 243. Bullet types ( I believe) are always a reference to a good shot placement. It's the placement that always makes the difference. That is why I always listen CAREFULLY to your words when you speak. Great job ! Keep up the great work.
To simplify the comparison between impact, energy and killing power,
Impact energy is a function of velocity squared times mass, whereas
“Killing power” is a function of velocity squared times mass squared.
So, going by impact energy as a metric for the ability to drop and animal prioritizes velocity and using “killing power” as a metric evaluates mass and velocity equally.
The 6.5 Grendel out of the average 18-22" barrels gets 2450-2600 fps from standard factory loads in the 115-123gr loads. And nearly all of the projectiles in that weight range surpasses the standard 95-100gr .243 loads in BC. With some doing so by a wide margin. Arguably the most popular hunting load in the 6.5 grendel is the 123gr SST with a BC of .510.
From the far more standard 20-22" .243 rifles, factory loads rarely come within 150 fps of rated velocity. It's a rather extreme over-bore. Most 95-100gr factory loads I have seen tested from 20-22" barrels only run 2700-2800 fps with very few exceptions. And even the 90gr eld-x bullet only comes in in the low .400 range in BC, really no higher than standard 100gr cup and cores.
With that real world information taken into context, real world muzzle energies are within 50-100 ft/lb. And the 6.5 has typically better BCs. The 123gr sst launched at a realistic 2500 fps average carries 1000 ft/lb and over 1900 fps at 375 yards. Whereas a standard 100 gr load from a 243 at a realistic muzzle velocity of a generous 2850 fps produces about 850ft lb and 1950 fps at the same distance. The average BC of factory 100gr loads is .355.
The .243 holds a velocity advantage until they come even at 375-400 yards. But loses its energy advantage by ±125 yards. Using the somewhat higher rated velocity (yet none seem to carry it in these standard barrel lengths) and higher bc 95 gr projectiles, the velocity advantage may carry slightly longer down range, but energy advantages don't hold out much further down range.
From data I've collected from real world testing, ignoring often quoted bloated factory ratings, most factory loads from both the .243 and 6.5 Grendel start out with near identical muzzle energy figures. The Grendel loses far less as barrels shorten. Some lighter bullets in the 6.5 are less efficient, and provides near identical impact energies down range to the standard .243 loadings. Albeit the .243 tends to carry a velocity advantage at all ranges from said projectiles.
Personal preference, having witnessed deer killed from both, id lean towards the 6.5 as being actually superior to the 243. The added frontal area seems to make a difference. Most center-fire hunting loads tend to expand to the .55-65" range and the Grendel will have more retained even with equal retained percentages to help push that expanded bullet deeper. That being said, most guys shooting even the 30-06 at deer would be just as well suited using the 'lowly' .243 and likely wouldn't notice much difference in actual terminal performance. The .243 has been an exceptional deer killer for coming up on 70 years now. Modern bullet design hasn't made it less effective at all.
I’m in the 6.5 Grendel camp. From 85, 95, 105,107 gr. To 120, 123, 129, 140 gr. and more, I’ve seen it’s lethality firsthand. I shoot out to 500 yards with the 123 gr. SST and the 120 gr. Gold dot moving 2,500+fps at 10” steel and while this is just the beginning of long range shooting, making first round hits out of my AR 15 size rifle, off the hood of my truck, at this range, impresses me plenty!
The 243 is a quite capable round itself and if I gave it as much attention as I have the Grendel, I’m sure it would perform just as well or better but that’s coming from an AR 10 pattern rifle and not the mini action of the AR 15.
Pound for pound, the lethality of 6.5 Grendel isn’t matched by any other caliber chambered in the AR 15. The 6mm ARC may shoot farther and the 300 BO may have more muzzle energy, but neither have legs and energy of the Grendel!
Ah but how does it compare to the 7x30 Waters - I know that's what everyone is wondering! Another great one Ron!
He is right people the 243 is the best 👍👍 for California deer 🦌
I was looking at a 6.5 grendel yesterday definitely like it but like a lot of rifle ammo💰 243 is nice to 👍
I prefer the 6.5 Grendel (Howa mini-action), if for novelty if nothing else. I do recognize that a Federal Premium 243, with a 100-grain partition bullet, will expand over a greater range than, say the 130-grain Nosler Accubond 6.5 Grendel. I think the Grendel bullets will slow down to the point the bullet will no longer expand at around 400 yards, even though the bullet remains supersonic to over 1000 yards.
Sectional density matters as well.
What really makes the big difference is shot placement and projectile expansion.
What is the SD 1 millisecond after hit hits something? Are you using solid steel projectiles that never deform because that is the only way SD would matter.
Certain states, like Idaho, have caliber minimums for big game. .264 is often it, making the 6.5 Grendel Iegal, but the .243 illegal, even though they are similar in capabilities.
Thanks Ron for all the interesting videos. For cartridge comparisons I take the bullet weight in grains times the muzzle velocity divided by 1000. this gives for a 223 60 gr. 180 and a 460 Weatherby 500gr. 7507 and 30-06 180 gr. 3134. The 6.5 Grendal gets 297 and a 243 310 so very close indeed. An interesting thing in this math places the 300 Win mag behind the 35 Whelan 540 to 625 while the energy figures disagree Also the 45-70 at 900 vs. the 375 H&H at 780 also disagreeing with the energy rankings. .I think any cartridge between 300 and 500 are good solid deer cartridges and anything between 500 and 800 good for moose and elk with the 100 and above for elephant etc.
edit that 30-06 is 504.
Ron, on the 6.5 Grendel and 243 Win being neck and neck on energy levels you are correct , but on energy levels out at 400 yards you are quiet a bit off.
Since you like the Barnes TTSX so much, I ran their max loads as per Barnes load data.
With that both deliver actually over 900 ft-lb at 400 yards out of a 24‘ barrel.
Now I appreciate that this might be misleading in the real world, as nobody is running around with a 24 inch AR15 chambered in 6.5 Grendel 😂
But even if we reduce the speed 100 ft/s to simulate a 20‘ barrel, at 400 we are still at 845 ft-lb
I'm running around with a 24" AR in 6.5 Grendel. 123gr SST factory ammo runs 2600fps for me. 105gr monolithic handle ads run +2800 fps.
@@nospam3409 nice speeds. Am I off and are there a ton of people running those long barrels.
@@nikos6220 Not necessarily. The Grendel needs the barrel length to get the velocity. At 20" they are basically identical. Over 20" the Grendel pulls away. Under 18", the 6.8 SPC does better because it doesn't give up as much velocity as the barrel gets shorter. Problem is that there aren't many factory loads for 6.8 spc. As to your question, not many people do their research to know this so they end up buying a Grendel with 16" or 18" barrel. I wanted something I could enjoy shooting at 500yds and I think the comblock Russian case of the Grendel has more accuracy potential.
@@nospam3409 interesting. The Barnes numbers I ref in the comment are both for 24‘. For hunting outside of 300 yards the 243 makes more sense, as it still has speeds that ensure proper expansion. The 120 TTSX out of the Grendel has only 1800 ft/s at 400, way below expansion threshold for the Barnes.
@@nikos6220 Absolutely. The 243 Win is using 50% more powder than a grendel. It should absolutely have noticably more reach. I wouldn't recommend using a barnes at below 2000fps for an impact velocity. I prefer Maker or Cavity Back because they expand down to 1500 fps or lower. I don't recall what I'm getting at 400 yds for velocity, but I've shot the 105 MKZ (BC=.490) into milk jugs at that distance. Dented the back of the 4th jug pretty hard with decent expansion. Not the best test, but I'd say that's pretty close to the max limit of my setup. I did take a prairie dog at 700 yds with it (very accurate load, under 1/2 moa feeding from a mag), but I have no idea if there was any expansion. Lol
I like these shorter ones👍 - 👍
That's what SHE said! 😂 (I just couldn't stop myself. Sorry).
@@Duke_of_Prunes 🤣🤣🤣
What’s the hurry? I can listen to Ron all day
@@Duke_of_Prunes got me to chuckle
If we compare the most common rounds made by Hornady for both the 243 (90gr ELDX) and the 6.5 Grendel (123gr SST) using Hornady data and their ballistics calculator we get the following.
243 Win
MV = 3,150 fps
ME = 1,983 ft-lbs
6.5G
MV = 2,580 fps
ME = 1,818 ft-lbs
If we set the minimum velocity for good expansion at 1,900 fps the 243 will hit that mark at about 575 yards. The 6.5 Grendel will hit that mark at about 425 yards.
If we set the minimum energy for deer at 1,000 ft-lbs the 243 will hit that at about 400 yards. The 6.5 Grendel will hit that at about 400 yards, also.
What this means is that the 243 doesn't beat the 6.5 Grendel and that's all due to the BC and sectional density of the bullets.
The 243 is stuck with a 0.409 G1 BC and the 123gr SST comes in with a 0.510 G1 BC. That means the same power farther downrange despite the drastically slower MV.
At impact the higher sectional density of the 6.5 Grendel (0.252 vs 0.218) will mean better penetration.
@gsh341 Actually, it's not quite that easy. It's true, the 6.5 Grendel has a higher BC and similar energy numbers, but there's more to the ballistics that determines terminal performance.
At a velocity of 1,900 fps, that is the bare minimum of what is needed to reliably expand a vast array of bullets, whether lead or copper, and I would personally prefer to see a minimum of 2,000 fps. But it's not just the energy it's delivering at long range, it's the amount of velocity it has at those longer ranges that determines whether a bullet will reliably expand. Which is why bullet/ammo manufacturers state a minimum velocity number for proper expansion.
As far as the data you shared, I'll trust that the numbers you listed are correct, but at only 425yds the 6.5 Grendel slows down to the 1,900 fps minimum requirement for reliable expansion, whereas .243 Win doesn't slow down and hit that mark until 575yds. That's an additional 150yds of additional effective range where .243 is above the 1,900 fps minimum. Also, .243 is capable of retaining 2,000+ fps at 500yds as well.
Additionally, the higher velocity of .243 will also aid deeper penetration, which at longer distances becomes even more important to drive deeper into the vitals for proper terminal performance. This is the case, regardless of the round being used. Additionally, .243 Win is much flatter shooting than 6.5 Grendel, and has very comparable wind drift numbers, plus or minus depending on which bullet/load you're comparing. Which are added benefits for overall accuracy when shooting long range.
Overall, the energy numbers might be similar, but in regards to longer range shooting, I'll take the extra velocity of .243 for deeper penetration and to help assure that the bullet fully expands at those distances. I'd also prefer a 100gr bullet for .243 to achieve a higher sectional density too (typically an SD of .242).
With all that said, I am in NO WAY implying 6.5 Grendel is "bad" cartridge at all. Every cartridge has its place and its own set of capabilities. But for the reasons I mentioned, I would personally choose .243 Win over 6.5 Grendel for shooting up to that 575 yard limit for proper bullet expansion and penetration. To each their own of course.
@@Plumcraziness Most 243 rifles can't shoot bullets over 90 grain accurately due to the rifling twist not being fast enough. So most 243 rounds are 85 to 90 grain. That reduces SD and penetration.
@@gsh341 Not true. There are plenty of 100gr bullets that are meant to be shot with, and are fully stabilized with the .243 Winchester's standard 1:10" twist rate. I can't think of one that can't be, unless you're talking about copper bullets, which is a different thing entirely. Besides, there are factory rifles being sold with faster twist rates, like the current Remington 700 with a 1:8" twist barrel, and the Ruger American with a 1:9" twist barrel, which will also stabilize even larger grain sizes that also have even higher BCs and sectional densities.
@@Plumcraziness The most common twist rate for the 243 has been the 1/10" twist (like mine) and with most bullets once you hit 95 grains you are marginally stable or not stable at all depending on the bullet. The problem is exacerbated by the fact the heavier bullets will be moving slower and slower bullets aren't as easily stabilized.
Increase that twist to 1/9" and you get a bit better, but faster twist is better. That's why most 6mm Creedmoor rifles are 1/8" or faster.
Like I said, I have a 243 with a 1/10" twist and it shoots 85gr just fine, but no bullet I've tried over 90 grains has shot for crap and the ones over 100 grains all show signs of instability.
By comparison, the 6.5 Grendel was designed to shoot 123 gr bullets. that means the 123gr bullets are always stable from a 6.5 Grendel. The extra mass does mean a slower bullet, but it also means deep penetration due to increased momentum.
@@gsh341 My apology for such a long reply.
I'm sorry to hear you seem to be having issues with stabilizing 90+ grain bullets in your .243, but this seems to be more of an issue with your particular rifle and your own personal experience with it. Not being able to stabilize 90+ grain bullets is not an issue that I have ever heard of before, other than your own comment. The fact is, 90+ grain bullets are some of the most common size of bullet used in .243 for deer (or larger game), and people do not have an issue shooting them at all. It's also why .243 Winchester's popularity soared over .244 Remington during the mid to late 50s, because the .243 was able to stabilize 100gr bullets. At the time, .244 Rem had a slow 1:12" twist barrel, which limited it to 90gr.
For instance, 95gr and 100gr Nosler Partition is a legendary performer for whitetail and larger game with people shooting them with a stock 1:10" barrel. Certainly if people were having issues stabilizing them they would not use them. Nor any other 90+ grain bullet from any other manufacturer for that matter, yet ammo companies continue to sell hoards of them year after year. The thing is, 90+ grain bullets for .243 have been sold for decades, and if stability really was an issue, that size of bullet never would have sold so well for that long, nor would anyone want to buy them.
I would say to try not to blame an entire caliber because you are having less than stellar results with your own rifle shooting 90+ grain bullets. Again, this does not seem to be an issue for other people. Your comment is the first time I have ever heard of someone having an issue stabilizing 90+ grain bullets in a standard 1:10" twist barrel. Unless they have a burned out barrel, which I assume that is not the case.
As for the 6.5 Grendel, yes, it shoots a larger 123gr bullet, but also with much lower velocity right across the board compared to .243 Win. The heavier bullet of the Grendel is the only reason why they both basically have the same energy numbers at 500 yds. However, the difference is that .243 is at 2,069 fps (90gr ELD-X) at 500yds, but 6.5 Grendel is only at 1,796 fps (123gr SST) at the same distance. Not only is that a 273 fps difference, which is significant, that's also below the 1,900 fps threshold for good expansion that you, yourself, stated.
As far as energy numbers are concerned, the thing is, energy numbers are only a description of power at the very moment of impact. It does not describe how deep a bullet is going to impact. However, what determines deep penetration even more is how much velocity it's still carrying at the moment of impact to help drive it deeper. Again, that's why bullet manufacturers also list velocity numbers for proper expansion and terminal performance. They know that velocity counts.
The issue is that, despite the 6.5 Grendel's heavier bullet, higher BC and slightly higher sectional density, there comes a point when those things cannot overcome the higher velocity of another cartridge. Its much slower velocity across the board just isn't enough to outperform the .243 Win's terminal performance at long range as you have implied. There is too much of a velocity discrepancy to overcome.
Most importantly though, bullet manufacturers assure their bullets fully expand around that 1,900-2,000 fps minimum mark, but at 500yds, the 6.5 Grendel shooting the 123gr SST bullet you mentioned is below that threshold.
For me, there is no reason to risk substandard expansion when shooting at an animal. Particularly at long range where there is no room for error, and where these criteria become even more critical. If a bullet cannot reach that fps minimum at a certain range, it cannot be relied upon for reliable terminal performance. To shoot any animal below the threshold of reliable expansion is unethical IMO. Regardless of if it's .223 Rem or .416 Dakota.
I will always choose the round that is at or above the minimum for reliable expansion, and I will always take the extra velocity as an added advantage to help drive it deeper.
Just to clarify my point though: by your initial post, you were implying that .243 Winchester doesn't have as good of performance as 6.5 Grendel at long range, and this just isn't the case. My intention is to help you see that .243 Win is not what you think it is. Again, I don't say these things to disparage 6.5 Grendel at all. Every cartridge is great within their limitations.
Cheers and good will.
A 100grain 0.243bullet in the right place will take Red Deer out to about 150metres. A lot of these myths are based on so-so shooting, the correct bullet in the correct place will take much bigger game than you realise. Stalkers tend to overcompensate for their inefficiencies by using a bigger cartridge. The same people talk about a "minute of deer", what sort of measurement is that?
243 has better sectional density and velocity but less overall mass, and there is the bullet design and the shooter's ability get good shot placement. .
The 6.5 Grendel actually has better sectional density. With commonly available options the 243 tops out in the .24 sectional density range while the 6.5 Grendel is in the .25-.26 range in sectional density with commonly available 123-129 gr projectiles
Both can kill out to 4 yards, but better recommend to 300 yards, because of drop, I only have a 6.5 Grendel because of the AR platform
Grendel is for AR-15, it's the best compromise there. If you have action length for something better I don't know why you'd use grendel
The killling power is not revelent it what/where you hit the animal at. I have 243 win and have taken WT deer with Hornady 100gr ( iIRC ) interlock and the same weapon can be loaded with varmint load and lighter bullet. Recoil is mild.
I also show a 6.5x55 swede masuer , again I can shooting custom loads from 95gr to 190grain load bullet. It's much slower than a 243win but faster than a 6.5grendel due to the case volume.
My modern 243win
105 grain @ 3100
.531 G1
Will smoke a 6.5 Grendel
But i love them all
I think the 6 dasher and 243 would be about the same it’s odd to me that companies don’t chamber in the 6 dasher.
For total Knock Down Power try the 950 JDJ, that will get the job done
I don't feel recoil and barely hear the report of my .243 when hunting.
I have had 1 instant kill that knocked him over like a domino, but that is the exception.
Jeezlouise if you gotta have 6.5, go for the one that will take out a President. The .264mag is the bomb. Remington had a 6.5Remington back in the 60s with a belted case, lower numbers than the Winchester, but tested and safe.
G'day from Australia.
I shoot a 6.5 Grendel at night for pigs with a thermal, throwing 90gr Speer TNTs at 2800 fps and the controllability of follow up shots is why I chose it.
I shoot a 303/25 in the day, throwing 87gr Speer HotCors at 3150 fps ( similar to a .243)
Out to 300 yards, both are deadly medicine on any size pig.
If I had to start again without my father's old 303/25, the .243 would probably be my day gun, but for me, the Grendel rules the night.
I hunt with both. Ive hunted with the Grendel the last 4 or 5 season's I like it because I can use the AR platform. other then the AR 15 platform nothing about the 6.5 Grendel is better than the 243 win. I own 2-6.5 Grendel's I use them all the time we have A target rich environment to see the results with Hogs and as many deer as you want to kill as long as you shoot does. only 3 bucks a year. the 243 kills much faster and I get more exit holes with the little 80 gr ttsx then the 120 gold dot or the 123 sst in the Grendel. I have had some very long runs with perfect double lung shots with the Grendel. I love my little Grendel's but I am just telling it like I have seen it. personally I prefer the 7mm08 for buck hunting over both.
Wilson combat makes an ar10 in 243 win
@@jacobmullins3644 so does a lot of other guys. but you might as well do 7mm08 if you want to tote a ar 10. I use the AR15 like you would use a 30-30 for fast shots in shorter range areas. if I have a 250 yard or more shot I bring a bigger cartridge. personally I don't think the Grendel is a long range cartridge for deer. I am from the two holes are better than one. because we are in thick southern wood's. and if you shoot one down a fire break and don't have good blood you have a good chance at never finding it.
its really hard to find exactly where he was standing if its covered in pine straw and they don't bleed . Id say only 50% of the deer I shoot with my Grendel have exit holes past 150yards.
@@southerntriplej8061 the problem with the different AR-10 platforms is that they aren’t nearly as standardized as the AR15 platform. Every different manufacturer has their own tweaks and whistles that tend to be proprietary-and expensive. But that makes them less easy to swap parts on between manufacturers. For those sized cartridges, bolt guns can be built for much cheaper with excellent quality actions and barrels and chassis.
@@dr.froghopper6711 I agree. and they are heavy. I like the new Ruger sfar but I don't have a need for a 308,. I own 3 - 7mm08s and 2-243s and a 30-06. the next rifle Im going to buy will be the 6.5-300 wby mag just for hunting a cattle ranch I will be hunting. and Ive got a slew of AR 15 s
I have a smokeless muzzleloader that shoots a 300gr 45cal SST at 2450 fps. It does more damage to the vitals than anything else I've ever seen. I hunted with it exclusively for 15 years. In Indiana, we cant shoot as many deer as you can,I but i took over 30 deer with it. 've been hunting with a grendel for the past 4 seasons and I've taken 7 deer so far with it. So far, everything has died just as quickly as they do with my ML.
For me it's 243 no questions asked...
100/105 grs.
🖖🏻🇫🇷😎🇫🇷😎🇫🇷🖖🏻
Hey Ron, I'm from New Jersey where gun laws are VERY strict, even for hunting. Only .25 caliber and smaller rifles are allowed for hunting. What centerfire rifle options would be best to look at? 6mm Creedmoor? .243 Win? Or do you suggest something else? I'd also like to buy a caliber that has long distance potential that would also be able to handle medium game like whitetail when I leave state for hunting trips. Thanks in advance, love your content, keep up the good work.
6mm Creedmoor would be hard to beat because you can use heavier bullets.
25-06. Certainly too much if all your shooting is at brush distances, but if you want something to reach out for out of state hunting, it is a solid long range gun. As always you can download more easily than you can upload.
If you are restricted to .25 caliber center fire, that opens and entire other Pandora's Box. If it were me, I would get a bolt action rifle in 25-06 with a 4-12×44 or similar scope. That is an excellent combination for long range medium game set-up. Oh, also forgot that you would be able to use 100 gr to 120 gr bullets on medium game from a 1-10 twist barrel. Good luck and stay safe!!! 😉😉😉
Shot placement then bullet design.
People have taken moose with a .223, be accurate and precise.
My grandpa used to kill deer and coyotes out to close to 300 yards all the time with 243 and 220 swift. He loved those rounds. I assume Grendel is just as efficient. I plan on building one soon.
Interesting that so many cartridges have bullet weights of 123 grains and muzzle velicities of about 2,300 fps. the only difference is bullet diameter. The same is true for the 160/180 grain bullets with 2,700 fps cartridges. I guess the cartridge choice is the bullet diameter vs BC of the bullet used for retained energy for more range. But modern bullet design changes the terminal balistics, and performance, than historical results.
I know this is an older video but I do have a question.
Why would someone want to run a 129gn projectile in the Grendel?
To me, this doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
I use and hand load Grendel, loading a 123gn bullet I get about 2500fps. This is in a 20" tube gas gun. Since Grendel is already handicapped due to powder capacity why make life more difficult?
My first deer with a bow was a spine shot. I felt so bad. I had to draw again to get the right shot. God I wanted to die. Almost destroyed my bow hunting hobby. Took me a long time to pick that bow up again.
Glad you picked you bow back up and continued on..because you can believe this..no matter how good you are and a person can go for years without having a sub-par or bad shot..it can an will happen at some point..there are times that things happen beyond your control an other times when freak or unforseen things happen..you just do your best always and make the best happen an don't beat yourself up when it happens and you've done all you could do. It will and you will get better.
I have 50-beowulf I mean the grendel sounds good
Try The 85gr Sierra HPBT At About 3100 3200 FPS ??? Very Deadly LOAD. TALK About Knock Down !!!
I'm a "knock down" advocate.... but every deer (or animal...), is going to react differently. Many times we'd never know the difference, anyways...
If I were to guess (and that's what we're doing...), I'd guess the two would likely be the same in knock down power, at the ranges that we'd normally shoot a deer.... but definitely the bullets compared would have to be comparable in construction.
AND, the deer would have to cooperate by reacting the way WE hope it does! (don't hold your breath!)
Either cartridge will work well at any reasonable range, as long as the shot is good, bullets perform properly, the deer isn't aware of being shot at (the state of the animal at that time).... AND Lady Luck is on your side.
I would not shoot a deer at more than 150 yards with either of those cartridges.
That's just me......
Tell me you're a Fudd without telling me you're a Fudd.
A 243 with a Nosler partition...will go thru any animal...
Limit both of them to 250 yards or less, but focusing more on actually hunting. If you do that, it boils down to shot placement and bullet construction, just like everything else.
Muhammad Ali or George Foreman in their prime. Who has the highest ranking in the Taylor Knockout Factor? How does the .220 Taylor Swift perform in comparison?
I run a 140 RDF ( g7 BC .330) with 28 grains AA2520 at 2295 fps in my grendel. Do the math, a 243 ain't even close.
Not a rifle expert, but this stuff kills me. It depends on where (and what) you're hunting but where is the biggest difference here. If you're out west and the game can see you a mile away, sure you need a long range rifle and if you're in a wooded area you need a brush gun. Heaver bullets penetrate deeper if they hold together JSP, bonded, partition and copper. That fancy stuff opens quick for a quick energy dump but you have to use a rifle that over powered to get the penetration and it just destroys the animal. People shoot deer with a 22wmr South of Ohio but their biggest Whitetail only get to be around 160lbs, so a 243 or any 6.5 (other than the prc) is a great choice. In Ohio we still use shotguns (if you're old school) and a 20gauge slug gun will give you all the range you need, unless you hunt a field from a stand (here that would have to be on private property) then if you have over 400 acres you can use anything (within reason with permission from property owner and a crop damage permit). To bad the old stand by 30-06 isn't as popular. People shoot the 243 against the 6 Creedmoor all the time. Figure out the range you need then use what suits you the best, a lot of people want a do it all rifle........... They all work! I would like a 7PRC talk about over kill but if you go on a guided hunt for large game they won't let you use it, it's too small.
1:35
"knock down power a myth"
3:10
momentum / mass.
so which is it ?
the fact is "energy" is a decreasing variable with time/distance.
mass is a constant.
that mass is the "knock down power."
I can't bring myself to pay $2 a round for a possible 3% increase in performance, and I don't find 6.5 brass laying around to reload.
A better comparison would be 6mm ARC vs 243 Winchester.
the 6.5 Grendel is a great round... But why?
If you get a good ol' .243 Win and .30-06 Springfield, and you'll be covered for everything from varmints up to black bear, and even gizzly, moose, and even bison.
Can a 220 Smith take down an animal the size of an elk or a Moose on the smaller size? I saw footage of a 220 swift round cutting through ½" steel plate while a pair of 30:06 gov rounds hit rt beside the swift impacts but bounced off and didn't penetrate.
So, if that footage is real, it seems a 220 swift has ling range ability and more then enough kinetic energy to put a severe hurtin' on an elk...
Just want your opinion... 3-500 yards is my max ranges I'd go for... Will the 220 swift do this..