WOW! This is the first time I've been able to grasp compression release time's impact can have on the depth of a mix. Following the guidelines you've captured here placed all the percussion in a very dense mix as well as in relation to each other (i.e. from that static, flat plain to almost feeling like I'm in "the room"). Awesome video! Thank you!
In wich step can i use this kind of process ? Before eq or after ? Or mabye when elements are well mixed or staged or separated properly ? Or mabye in the beginning of the mix ?
+BENNGIIE Most of the time, no. If the vocal is very rhythmic and that is part of the groove of the song then this technique will work. Most often, what makes this technique so powerful is when the vocal is not processed this way so it is the stable focus with the instrumentation pumping and moving rhythmically around it. It is the contrast of processing on the vocal that helps it to stand out. Hope this makes sense... Cheers! mike
Hi Mike, long time video watcher first time commenter. A question about using this technique on already compressed tracks, is this ok to do? By this I mean say the tracks in a session need a lot of levelling or tone shaping; so there's an LA2A on the bass, or you want that 1176 sound on your kick and snare so you put that on and all your tracks are sounding nice but the overall mix needs a bit more movement such as what is demonstrated in this video; at this point can you apply this compression technique to get the groove going or should this technique be done from the off and that's the only compression that should be put on a track? If it is ok to use this technique on tracks that are compressed already should every layer of compression be approached more conservatively, so if you'd normally go for 3-6 dB of GR on the bass LA2A would it be better for looking for 3 and then another 3 on the "groove" compressor? Aside from that, I'd like to give you props on what you do here. Big fan of the plugin of the week series, I often find myself watching them even if I know I'm never going to use a plugin because they serve as such an excellent history lesson. Many thanks.
I Apply this technique to all rhythm instruments first before applying any other compression. It helps to weave all of the instruments together in a musical way. The "groove" based compression does not work on everything though. I find it less effective on most bass sounds and long sustained sounds like pads that have little attack. Thanks for the support! Cheers! Mike
Hey Diggs Rapper, Can't reply to your comment fro some reason so I will add a new one here and hope you return. This is an excellent question and one that can get complicated to explain. If you pay close attention to the video you will notice how carefully I set the amount of gain reduction. This has a huge impact on the release time characteristic and the shape of the recovery. The more GR, the faster the recovery will sound in spite of the numerical setting. Think of this like the velocity of a vector. The longer the distance over the same release time, the faster it must go to get there. When you understand this more fully, the exactness of the release number in ms is less important and can easily lead you down a path of OCD tweaking. This is also the secret to making vintage compressors perform the same way when they have fixed release time settings. I sense another video tip... Cheers! Mike
If you are going to a long attack of 25ms or so, it makes sense to take it away from the release time. To be honest, the best way to do it is to close your eyes and sweep the release time until it feels right. Ultimately, the feel matters more than the actual number. This tip creates a very practical starting point that is easy to understand and yields results very quickly. The problem can be getting too caught up in the numbers being correct and paying less attention to how it feels. Great question Diggs!
Hey Diggs, Exactly! Over time, as your ears get better, you start tuning into subtle aspects that you couldn't hear before. Then you start adapting the same principle to different situations. I started doing this 25-30 years ago working on analog desks but there were no digital readouts of the release time. It wasn't until I got on digital consoles and later with DAWs that I put the math together. Your channel looks cool, keep up the good work!
I think it had more to do with the fact that recalling a mix at a later date in the same studio would take 5 hours to set up. No "Save-As..." in analog! hahaha! Mixes got done quickly because there was no other choice. Also, the track counts were more limited. The hardest part about recreating that sound now is having had the experience of doing it for real. There are so many things involved that have yet to be truly emulated but the latest stuff from UA and Waves is getting closer every year...
Excellent question! That largely depends on what the Drum Buss needs are. If I feel that the groove needs additional enhancement, I will either try to get it from a parallel compression return or from the drum stem compression. In this case, most of the time, it is the same release timing or feel but is usually a vintage compressor of some kind not necessarily the same one used on the individual channels.
great video,thanks you very much ! i wonder why release times on software plugin compressors do not have an option for musical values or can be synced to the host songtempo
Sascha Kühn Thanks Sascha! I have seen a couple but not many, the Waves H-Comp comes to mind. I think part of the problem is that this method it not widely recognized enough to warrant being a feature. Most engineers will set release time by 'feel' which ends up being close to the same thing but they may not equate the numbers with music values. Cheers! Mike
Michael, great tutorial. Love your approach to teaching. I've a question for you. It's something of a mantra to say that a mix is done (among other things) once everything can be heard clearly, yet it's also widely thought that a listener can really only appreciate 3 parts at a time. It doesn't quite seem right to me to make a mix where everything is crystal clear, without making a mix way too intensive to enjoy. Maybe I'm taking this advice too literally, but I'm sure you could probably help me make sense of this otherwise broad statement. All the best Jon
Thanks Jon! This is a very rich topic and many have their opinions on what you can or cannot do. To me a mix is done when my attention is fully engaged from beginning to end of the song without being diverted. Sometimes that means everything is clear, sometimes not. It's more about what is appropriate to the meaning of the song. There is no single technical description of a mix that will work in every situation and thinking that way is a huge obstacle for most engineers. The technique in this video is specifically designed to create a synergy between instruments that is musical and helps to establish the rhythmic/groove aspect of the production in a very musical way. In this particular song, the groove is critical part of the production and is perfectly appropriate. Hope this answers your question... Mike
Hi Nathan, The calculation of the release time is based on the actual amount of time, in milliseconds, of a specific note value based on the tempo. So, if a 1/4 note delay time = 640ms, then 1/8 note = 320 and 1/16 note = 160. The reason for this is to keep the movement of the gain recovery in sync with the tempo of the song. As you can hear from the demo, when all the tracks are synchronized in this way, the "groove" or musical movement is enhanced. Hope this answers your question. Cheers! Mike
Wouldn't this only be true if the Release was defined as starting as soon as the transient peak hit the compressor? Which make sense because it would release in time to allow another transient hit to come through. But is that true of the release time? I thought the Release didn't engage until the audio passed below the threshold? Even if at its earliest, wouldn't it not engage until the Attack time was up? Meaning that you'd have to set the Release to, lets say in this case, 365ms - 2.50ms = 362.5ms? Basically the length of the note value you chose minus the Attack time? I'm honestly not trying to prove you wrong, I'm seriously just digging for an answer.
+CrazyCow500 Hey CC500, Excellent question, and worth a bit of clarification. The formula presented in this video is really just a guideline that you can use to quickly get your compressors to move in tempo. Technically speaking the attack time is the amount of time over which the attack is applied and the release time begins after full Gain Reduction is reached, not when the signal falls back below threshold. That said, not every plugin is designed the same and the attack/release characteristics may be based on different approaches. The truth is that, this formula will get you very close, if not spot on, to a good result. It is best to tweak from there by ear and not get caught up as much in the exact numbers as you do with the feeling. I would be very surprised to hear that, in a blind test, you would be able to hear the difference between a 365ms and a 362.5ms release time! If the difference were closer to 30ms or so perhaps it would be easier to hear the difference. Hope this answers your question... Cheers! Mike
Thanks for the reply Mike, Another question. When you say "full Gain Reduction", what does that mean? Isn't that the same as the duration of the attack time?
Maybe "Maximum GR" is more accurate. In other words when the amount of GR ceases to increase. Technically, the attack time length is determined when 2/3 of total Max GR is achieved. This means there is also a 1/3 attack time gap before the release starts. Again, all this depends on the design of the compressor plugin. It starts to get crazy-making after a while chasing all the numbers. That's why it is better to get close with the math using the formula above and tweak by ear. Cheers! Mike
+Jonny MaK Hi Jonny, Are you seeing the jittering in this video or all of them? This is an older video with an older computer. I beleive I resolved this issue quite a while ago. Thanks! Mike
Drumwizard Hey Drumwizard. I assume of course you are talking about the master buss as I do not see anything on the individual channels. I did not see this from your last comment. This sometimes occurs as part of a live demonstration occurring during a live online class recording where the focus is on a mixing technique, not the buss output level. In any real mix situation the levels would be adjusted accordingly, I also have videos on gain structure of the mix if you need more info on that topic. You may notice clipping on some of my other videos, I hope that this did not distract too much from the lesson. There is also another gain stage that you are not seeing as part of the master output before the DAC (part of the hardware utility software) which buffers the output so that the clipping that you see does not actually reach the DAC or the video. The "clipping" within the 64 bit architecture of PT11 allows for this as long as the level is back below 0dBfs at the DAC stage. This is also true within all AAX plugins. You may have noticed that there is some "clipping" withing the Ren Compressor which has a soft limit built in and also has the benefit of the 64bit structure to buffer the "overs". Hope this is a more satisfactory answer to your concerns. Cheers! Mike
WOW! This is the first time I've been able to grasp compression release time's impact can have on the depth of a mix. Following the guidelines you've captured here placed all the percussion in a very dense mix as well as in relation to each other (i.e. from that static, flat plain to almost feeling like I'm in "the room"). Awesome video! Thank you!
Can´t express enough how importaint these videos are.
Thank you very much :)
Cheers! Many more to come...
Excellent! Thank you. This hasn't really been covered as well anywhere else...
+Jeff King Cheers Jeff!
60000 ➗ 82 = 731 ms, 60000 ➗ project tempo is in = milisecond, add a factor or divide for multiples
just found your mix tips ! eating it all up man ! thank you so much !
Mike, why each of your tutorial is just great? :))) Thanks!
Cheers Tom!
Wow.. will remember this trick for laid back tracks...
That is fantastic music. Would love to hear the finished song.
Another Gem. If i watch all your vids i'm sure i will learn the equivalent of 10year's worth in just 1.
Thanks Alexis!
Great Lesson Mike. Thanks!
Great. Happy Christmas Mike! Thx.
Thanks James, have a great one as well !
Absolutely brilliant. Thanks!
+Hugelongjohns Cheers!
great Mike :-) creating depth and groove.
Watched so many videos on compression but nothing comes close to what is covered here about realese just perfect period !
This is awesome, thank you so much
In wich step can i use this kind of process ? Before eq or after ? Or mabye when elements are well mixed or staged or separated properly ? Or mabye in the beginning of the mix ?
Thanks so much!
i was thinking about it! :)
Very helpful... Thanks does this also work for vocals
+BENNGIIE Most of the time, no. If the vocal is very rhythmic and that is part of the groove of the song then this technique will work. Most often, what makes this technique so powerful is when the vocal is not processed this way so it is the stable focus with the instrumentation pumping and moving rhythmically around it. It is the contrast of processing on the vocal that helps it to stand out.
Hope this makes sense...
Cheers!
mike
Hi Mike, long time video watcher first time commenter. A question about using this technique on already compressed tracks, is this ok to do? By this I mean say the tracks in a session need a lot of levelling or tone shaping; so there's an LA2A on the bass, or you want that 1176 sound on your kick and snare so you put that on and all your tracks are sounding nice but the overall mix needs a bit more movement such as what is demonstrated in this video; at this point can you apply this compression technique to get the groove going or should this technique be done from the off and that's the only compression that should be put on a track? If it is ok to use this technique on tracks that are compressed already should every layer of compression be approached more conservatively, so if you'd normally go for 3-6 dB of GR on the bass LA2A would it be better for looking for 3 and then another 3 on the "groove" compressor?
Aside from that, I'd like to give you props on what you do here. Big fan of the plugin of the week series, I often find myself watching them even if I know I'm never going to use a plugin because they serve as such an excellent history lesson. Many thanks.
I Apply this technique to all rhythm instruments first before applying any other compression. It helps to weave all of the instruments together in a musical way. The "groove" based compression does not work on everything though. I find it less effective on most bass sounds and long sustained sounds like pads that have little attack.
Thanks for the support!
Cheers!
Mike
@@mixingwithmike Thanks Mike, you're a gent
U r the best man you r ma mentor
Hey Diggs Rapper,
Can't reply to your comment fro some reason so I will add a new one here and hope you return. This is an excellent question and one that can get complicated to explain. If you pay close attention to the video you will notice how carefully I set the amount of gain reduction. This has a huge impact on the release time characteristic and the shape of the recovery. The more GR, the faster the recovery will sound in spite of the numerical setting. Think of this like the velocity of a vector. The longer the distance over the same release time, the faster it must go to get there. When you understand this more fully, the exactness of the release number in ms is less important and can easily lead you down a path of OCD tweaking. This is also the secret to making vintage compressors perform the same way when they have fixed release time settings. I sense another video tip...
Cheers!
Mike
If you are going to a long attack of 25ms or so, it makes sense to take it away from the release time. To be honest, the best way to do it is to close your eyes and sweep the release time until it feels right. Ultimately, the feel matters more than the actual number. This tip creates a very practical starting point that is easy to understand and yields results very quickly. The problem can be getting too caught up in the numbers being correct and paying less attention to how it feels.
Great question Diggs!
Hey Diggs,
Exactly! Over time, as your ears get better, you start tuning into subtle aspects that you couldn't hear before. Then you start adapting the same principle to different situations.
I started doing this 25-30 years ago working on analog desks but there were no digital readouts of the release time. It wasn't until I got on digital consoles and later with DAWs that I put the math together.
Your channel looks cool, keep up the good work!
I think it had more to do with the fact that recalling a mix at a later date in the same studio would take 5 hours to set up. No "Save-As..." in analog! hahaha! Mixes got done quickly because there was no other choice. Also, the track counts were more limited.
The hardest part about recreating that sound now is having had the experience of doing it for real. There are so many things involved that have yet to be truly emulated but the latest stuff from UA and Waves is getting closer every year...
I really would like to hear you do this with Hip Hop. This is super good 4 years later STILL! please cover it in hip hop
Very good toutorial. What will be the setting on the Drum buss compressor. same release?
Excellent question! That largely depends on what the Drum Buss needs are. If I feel that the groove needs additional enhancement, I will either try to get it from a parallel compression return or from the drum stem compression. In this case, most of the time, it is the same release timing or feel but is usually a vintage compressor of some kind not necessarily the same one used on the individual channels.
Michael White
Thanks Mike
Great tutorial!
Thanks Luis!
great video,thanks you very much ! i wonder why release times on software plugin compressors do not have an option for musical values or can be synced to the host songtempo
Sascha Kühn Thanks Sascha!
I have seen a couple but not many, the Waves H-Comp comes to mind. I think part of the problem is that this method it not widely recognized enough to warrant being a feature. Most engineers will set release time by 'feel' which ends up being close to the same thing but they may not equate the numbers with music values.
Cheers!
Mike
Michael, great tutorial. Love your approach to teaching. I've a question for you. It's something of a mantra to say that a mix is done (among other things) once everything can be heard clearly, yet it's also widely thought that a listener can really only appreciate 3 parts at a time. It doesn't quite seem right to me to make a mix where everything is crystal clear, without making a mix way too intensive to enjoy. Maybe I'm taking this advice too literally, but I'm sure you could probably help me make sense of this otherwise broad statement. All the best Jon
Thanks Jon!
This is a very rich topic and many have their opinions on what you can or cannot do. To me a mix is done when my attention is fully engaged from beginning to end of the song without being diverted. Sometimes that means everything is clear, sometimes not. It's more about what is appropriate to the meaning of the song. There is no single technical description of a mix that will work in every situation and thinking that way is a huge obstacle for most engineers.
The technique in this video is specifically designed to create a synergy between instruments that is musical and helps to establish the rhythmic/groove aspect of the production in a very musical way. In this particular song, the groove is critical part of the production and is perfectly appropriate.
Hope this answers your question...
Mike
Just came across this channel. Subscripted on the spot!
thank you
+O J Cheers OJ!
I'm not understanding the calculation you're doing. Can you explain pls?
Hi Nathan,
The calculation of the release time is based on the actual amount of time, in milliseconds, of a specific note value based on the tempo. So, if a 1/4 note delay time = 640ms, then 1/8 note = 320 and 1/16 note = 160. The reason for this is to keep the movement of the gain recovery in sync with the tempo of the song. As you can hear from the demo, when all the tracks are synchronized in this way, the "groove" or musical movement is enhanced.
Hope this answers your question.
Cheers!
Mike
Wouldn't this only be true if the Release was defined as starting as soon as the transient peak hit the compressor? Which make sense because it would release in time to allow another transient hit to come through. But is that true of the release time? I thought the Release didn't engage until the audio passed below the threshold? Even if at its earliest, wouldn't it not engage until the Attack time was up? Meaning that you'd have to set the Release to, lets say in this case, 365ms - 2.50ms = 362.5ms? Basically the length of the note value you chose minus the Attack time?
I'm honestly not trying to prove you wrong, I'm seriously just digging for an answer.
+CrazyCow500
Hey CC500,
Excellent question, and worth a bit of clarification.
The formula presented in this video is really just a guideline that you can use to quickly get your compressors to move in tempo. Technically speaking the attack time is the amount of time over which the attack is applied and the release time begins after full Gain Reduction is reached, not when the signal falls back below threshold. That said, not every plugin is designed the same and the attack/release characteristics may be based on different approaches.
The truth is that, this formula will get you very close, if not spot on, to a good result. It is best to tweak from there by ear and not get caught up as much in the exact numbers as you do with the feeling. I would be very surprised to hear that, in a blind test, you would be able to hear the difference between a 365ms and a 362.5ms release time! If the difference were closer to 30ms or so perhaps it would be easier to hear the difference.
Hope this answers your question...
Cheers!
Mike
Thanks for the reply Mike,
Another question. When you say "full Gain Reduction", what does that mean? Isn't that the same as the duration of the attack time?
Maybe "Maximum GR" is more accurate. In other words when the amount of GR ceases to increase. Technically, the attack time length is determined when 2/3 of total Max GR is achieved. This means there is also a 1/3 attack time gap before the release starts. Again, all this depends on the design of the compressor plugin. It starts to get crazy-making after a while chasing all the numbers. That's why it is better to get close with the math using the formula above and tweak by ear.
Cheers!
Mike
Your videos are awesome! But can you get something to fix your video jerkiness?
+Jonny MaK Hi Jonny,
Are you seeing the jittering in this video or all of them? This is an older video with an older computer. I beleive I resolved this issue quite a while ago.
Thanks!
Mike
Man, tracks are clipping!
Clipping?
Yeah! You know, clipping... exceeding 0 dBfs and so on :)) gain staging... very hot signal... Paul Frindle... :)
Drumwizard Hey Drumwizard.
I assume of course you are talking about the master buss as I do not see anything on the individual channels. I did not see this from your last comment. This sometimes occurs as part of a live demonstration occurring during a live online class recording where the focus is on a mixing technique, not the buss output level. In any real mix situation the levels would be adjusted accordingly, I also have videos on gain structure of the mix if you need more info on that topic. You may notice clipping on some of my other videos, I hope that this did not distract too much from the lesson.
There is also another gain stage that you are not seeing as part of the master output before the DAC (part of the hardware utility software) which buffers the output so that the clipping that you see does not actually reach the DAC or the video. The "clipping" within the 64 bit architecture of PT11 allows for this as long as the level is back below 0dBfs at the DAC stage. This is also true within all AAX plugins. You may have noticed that there is some "clipping" withing the Ren Compressor which has a soft limit built in and also has the benefit of the 64bit structure to buffer the "overs".
Hope this is a more satisfactory answer to your concerns.
Cheers!
Mike