What can I say... somehow I don't think sorry quite cuts it and yeah I know its just an old PC but for me it was truly one of those holy grail items but that damage... It has made me question everything related to this channel and the work I try to show here. I'm not an expert (understatement) but to have wrecked this board as I did... well... I hope you understand how annoyed I am with myself for it, let alone how annoyed the community must be. A replacement motherboard is always an option but it is a very costly one and given that this now works, even with the damage I don' t think it would be the right thing to do. I'm not really a fan of replacing PCBs for the sake of it.
Goodevening! First of all - never give up! Second of all - expect the unexpected You've done a great job and al be it almost at the point of giving up, you just found out what issues you can run in to. even when unexpected like this it does show yo you can still recover from issues you have ran in to. Let this not be a lesson, but more an inspiration to anyone not to give up too soon. Not a repair-man myself (yet, who knows), I haven't really seen board delaminate like this on other channels I am following. Most of the issues there were indeed combinations of: - leaking varta's, - bulging or leaking capacitors, - shorted or exploding tantalums (which I did expect to happen here to be honest) - rifa's that let the magic smoke escape I'd not replace this board, but use it with pride. You actually made it working again! When it comes to the HDD: please don't format or try to write to this unless you have been able to set it up correctly in the bios. The HDD most likely is of the XT-IDE type which will not be compatible with AT-IDE that we are more familiar with. At least you found details of the drive already: 782 cylinders, 4 heads and 27 sectors/track which is not really standard but more like the RLL format. If the BIOS thinks it's a different type of drive that has 5 or 6 heads for example, those read errors can be expected. Check with Checkit what it might give you back there as the drive type and heads/cylinders. Good luck and - thanks for sharing. All the best for 2025!
As the saying goes, bud. "You can't make an omelette, without breaking a few eggs." I wouldn't beat yourself up over mistakes. Everyone makes them. If you don't learn from them, and use what you've learned, "then", it was truly for nothing. The thing is alive and kicking, and if you wanna feel better about it, maybe put in time to make the best possible trace repairs you can, the type that will last for years to come. Was a great watch, from start to finish, and was nice to see the thing come to life. 🍻 Cheers, and HNY, man.
What the hell man, Your repair of this motherboard is fantastic. This is from my experience of fixing corroded boards too. When dealing with corrosion damage, the traces are all going to be super fragile and break when you look at them. THIS IS NOT YOUR FAULT, AND THERE IS NOTHING YOU COULD HAVE DONE TO REALLY PREVENT THIS. And to make matters worse, corroded solder utterly resists your work. So you have to use extra time and heat and it just cooks the fragile traces and pads. Again, not your fault. Use as many bodge wires as you need. Nothing that has been varta bombed is going to be a museum piece, but getting it running again is a worthy feat. Sometimes you get lucky and don't need to bodge much ... other times you run 30 bodge wires. The next thing to do is to check all the traces from the 64kb memory block. Perhaps you can use the memtest bios from Adrians digital basement to see if there are specific broken address/data pins that you can more quickly identify.
Hey, you did an excellent job. All that counts is that it is now working. Trust me, I've repaired three of those PC10-III, and to be honest, none of them were in that bad of a shape. The leakage of those batteries corrodes the solder and forms some nasty salts that just won't melt. You either have to try fresh solder and a lot of flux on BOTH sides of the board, or, what I would have done as well, just ball it and repair the damage afterwards. Don't be too hard on yourself, I would have probably given up way before you with that lot of corrosion and that many bad chips. I did have to replace one of the PLCC sockets on one of mine though, because pins had just corroded off. Regarding the BIOS: There is no configuration tool. XT class machines usually are configured with DIP switches, but the PC10-III is a bit different: It autodetects everything during POST. The Commodore utility disk only contained a tool to change the CPU speed (which you can also do with the keyboard by pressing Ctrl-Alt-[S/T/D] for standard/turbo/double clock) and a tool for the ob-board real time clock to set and read the date, albeit it isn't Y2k compatible (I wrote an alternative though). The only configuration the board has besides the video mode dip switch are JMP208 which disables or enables the hard drive controller BIOS and JMP614 which enables or disables the NTSC color burst on the composite video output, so you can select between monochrome CGA or NTSC color CGA on composite. You lack of RAM above 512k is caused by either more bad RAM chips or a bad logic chip, (U325 to U328) Your hard drive seems to be in not too bad of a shape, but from the squealing sound I can hear it has a mechanical issue with the positioner motor bearings. The grease tends to dry up, causing a ton of friction and the motor is unable to step reliably, hence those data errors DOS is displaying. Try putting the hard drive upright so the shaft protruding from the stepper motor points upwards and then carefully dribble a few drops of sewing machine oil (or WD40 in a pinch) into the gap between the housing and the shaft. Adrian from the eponymous Digital Basement did this as well in one of his earliest videos. Exercise the drive a couple of times to free up the bearing and it should be fully working again! (And without the squealing) Oh, and by the way: you were showing the datasheet for the 93048-A while this is a 93048-X, which is an XTA drive that is _not_ ATA compatible. Don't try an IDE to USB adapter it won't work. The only way to dump the contents is in this machine. For the floppy drive situation: You can install a 3.5" floppy drive without issues, but you need a edge connector to pin connector adaptor and a Molex to Berg power adapter. If you want to replace the floppy data cable, keep in mind that Commodore didn't use the IBM style of cable with the twist for drive A. It uses a straight through cable like on an Amiga. Any normal PC drive should work without issue as drive B, for drive A you would need one that can be jumpered to DS0. Also keep in mind that only 720k DD disks will work, the FDC is too slow for the higher bit rate of HD disks. Keep up the good work! You definitely earned a subscription! Greetings from Germany David
Asides from the Amiga, Commodore used the absolute cheapest PCBs they could source, so I think that's more what the problem is. Honestly, to have gotten away with the small amount of damage actually done, was quite a feat. Pulling corroded chips from a corroded cheap ass PCB is soul destroying. Excellent repair though, well done :)
I think you were being too harsh on yourself. The corrosion was really bad and you learnt from your experience and improved as you progressed on this repair. Watching 3 weeks of work in 75 mins makes it look a bit easier, but I would have thrown the towel way before you were thinking about it. We are here to learn and also to have fun. This machine was not one of the wonders of the world, nor one of the last few of its kind. So I think it was Ok to go at it the way you did. Take it easy and keep bringing us great content.
Dear Glen, please don't quit. I like your channel because you also show your mustakes and how to repair them, not many do (not that I care about watching, anyways). You also have a variety of ancient electronics I remember drooling over when I was a kid in the late 70's/early 80's on your channel. Please don't let this one PS-10 make you shut up shop. Have a think and have some smaller projects going off camera, let the enjoyment of seeing thi gs spring back to life come back to you.
Please keep going! Your CRG videos are some of my most favorites on RUclips. One of the reasons they're so great is because, as you said, you don't hide the difficult bits. You're a skilled technician, and with each repair you gain more expertise. Much love! :)
Don't be upset with yourself. Consider what factors you had control over... not many actually. It's old, and the previous owner didn't do you any favours. This is what a TOUGH repair can look like. You don't have x-ray vision (presumably, else your channel would be rather different I think). Your approach was methodical and rational. Your secret weapon was perseverance and it payed off. It always does. We learn from our own adversity, but sometimes we learn from the adversity of others. That you shared your difficulties with all of us is awesome and highly appreciated. There are so many fantastic repair channels out there that have the same attitude... Mend It Mark / Adrian's Digital Basement / EEVBlog / Louis Rossman / CuriousMarc .......... too long a list. Keep doing what you do, please.
You're techniques and knowledge are correct. Battery corrosion, and just corrosion in general, can stump the greatest of technicians. The fact that you can be critical of yourself shows you have even more potential for growth ahead of you. Mistakes can only strengthen your resolve, as what was shown in this video. I look forward to the next repair!
Gotta agree with the other comments here - you did a great job diagnosing and troubleshooting, and sometimes boards are just too far gone. Commodore liked to cheap out where they could, too, which makes your job that much harder! I love my Commodores too, but they definitely vex me :D
OMG at the point where you changed the dip switches and the display came to life I wanted to jump up off the sofa snd cheer for you. Amazing! 🤩 You have the patient of a saint Glen. Nice work.
That look of despondency and despair really hit me, I felt your pain. I watch a lot of repair videos , yours, Adrian Black, Epictronics etc. But this is the first time I let out a whoop of joy on seeing some signs of life on the screen. Great stuff 👍🏻👍🏻
I've done enough board-level repairs to know they don't always go according to plan. I learn something new with every board I touch, and understand the elation you felt when you saw this one POST. I also understand your anger and frustration at the damaged-traces. You clearly have a passion for the hobby, and the talent to see it through to success. Don't be too hard on yourself.
Sometimes you just get a "problem board". Traditional methods you're used to might not work, and even the best of methods still cause damage because the poor thing is just SO corroded. It's. Not. Your. Fault. You went back through and did some excellent trace repairs to sections that were going to be messed up anyways. Net-net the computer is better for being in your care. Take it easy on yourself! You did good work and learned some things in the process.
I think your honesty with the projects you undertake is refreshing. I certainly don’t think you should stop. There will always be mistakes in anything you do, but as long as you reflect on them, you will grow and gain more experience. It certainly won’t stop me watching your content
OK, here's the critical comment you asked for. More of this please, as long as you can spend the time to do so. I started watching your videos because I love old Commodores (I own a few 64's and Amiga's), but more so because you're so plainly honest and show us warts and all. Glen, you're awesome mate. Thank you for what you do :)
Keep the videos coming, we all make mistakes, I know you sent a lot of time doing it, but I have watched you and others and have learnt, how to do work on my Amigas. I have got two A500+ and two A1200. I have recaped them all by seeing what you have done. Old computers were not made too last this long. I had my A 500+ from new. Thanks to you and others there are 4 more Amigas stll being used today.
Color me impressed. The fact it POSTs and attempts to boot is 100% your doing. I’ve only recently snatched up an original PC-10 for myself. Initially disappointed it was before integrated HD, video and overclock (turbo) modes, I realize now that I was blessed with a board that never included the battery backed clock! Your struggles are real, but you’ve done a fantastic job getting it to work. Keep at it. You’ve got a gem worth making while again.
As a pure honesty, I am subbed to you for the learning experience. My first attempt to revive a dead board was a Mac Color Classic and I botched it badly, poor technique and lack of knowledge. You aren't making mistakes or errors out of incompetence, you're applying the knowledge you have and making the most of it. And while you learn and document and show for the community, I also get to learn along with you. Things to keep an eye on, troubleshooting steps, the struggles of flipping the switch and not seeing what you expect. Not to mention, you often tackle some projects that nobody would even try to fix! Even had this been a failure, it was entertaining and informative. You definitely sound a bit defeated, but I hope that some of the other comments also encourage you in this. Here for the long haul, don't give up! Another working computer is another success ^^
as a wise man said.. "you become good by gaining experience , you gain experience by making mistakes" Its all part of being a person that can and does. Dont give up , your down to earth, warts and all approach is what makes your content so educational and entertaining.
The most important thing is you love this system, it's your machine and finally you will get it to work properly. It's a cool looking system from the outside. I learned that usually the solder on the top side is crusty and will not want to melt, the solder on the bottom is easier to melt and desolder away. What I did in a few cases is use a tiny flat screwdriver to scrape off the solder on the top side of the pads. After clearing the crusty parts that don't melt by scraping, you will be able to see if the holes have cleared out of the remaining solder so you can wiggle the part loose. Regarding heat and delamination this is always a problem. Some PCBs are stronger than others. Usually I use a large opening on the hot air tool so there is a wider heating of the PCB. And by heating from a little more distance you can control how much the PCB heats up. Slow heating with more patience is always better. At some time you will find that the area is hot enough to let all the solder liquify. It always remains a risk so I often stay away from heating boards. You can practise with some scrap or faulty PCBs to judge the hot air heating method. I once desoldered a quarter of a ARC X286 model 12 mainboard to clear off battery damage, and after the final vinegar treatment a few data bit traces were broken. So I also had to fix these traces with wires, it's not ideal but the reason is the battery etching away the copper. I know your feeling however after the battery chemicals have damaged the PCB, it is really brittle and fragile, so it's just damage control from there. A battery damaged PCB will never look perfect, however you can get it in top working condition again, that's always a good thing compared to a dead system. I liked how you soldered those thin wires to the traces and through the holes. You could next time perhaps beep out the traces trying to catch any breaks. Anyway, I look forward to seeing this system work progressively better and more reliably, which is what matters really!
lol, the look on your face when it beeped at you Glen! Glad there's a display now though, hard work paid off regardless of how you got there! And to be fair, if you have a method that normally works for you removing components at it fails, that just says something else is at work here.
Glen i used to work in the electronics industry. This stuff is not easy. That board was condemned to death by a battery and 35 years. The very fact you got it working again was a miracle. Its like a surgeon with a patient on the table. And you got it alive again. Dont worry about any damage caused in the repair as the damage was already done. Love your channel, i urge you to keep going. Your content is fantastic.
To work better on such badly damaged boards requires more than the common hobby hut setup. A large board heater and hot air, use tons of the good Amtech flux to wash everything down before even attempting to move any chips out, plus a sonic cleaner to clean up the whole mess...
These boards are not great. If you look at the RMC video on restoring a similar machine. They ended up getting a re-made board. Regarding your hot air gun, it might be worth testing its temporature. I've found that on old arcade boards hot air and a small amount of leverage is the key. Heating the chip seemed to be the way forward, but the temporature of the hot air is key. I found 310 C worked best.
Deffo keep going buddy - been there with repairs that keep kicking you in the teeth but it just makes the win more pleasurable!!! I enjoy watching your repairs and like the 'no frills' aprorach and seeing your mistakes... we all make em but just learn and move on!!
Don't give up Glen! The fact that the machine lives is a testament to your patience and perseverance with it. I'm definitely not an expert in repairs, but I think judging by the visable corrosion that was on the board after you removed the chips, let alone on the chips themselves, that no matter how you attempted this, some damage was going to happen regardless of how gentle you were. It's how you dealt with it that matters and the fact the machine is now working. I think we could all feel your emotions when the screen came on. Don't give up and I certainly look forward to more CRG repair videos. Happy New Year, and have a great 2025!
I love your dedication Glen, don't be too hard on yourself mate. This board obviously had a hard time while "stored" as you said. But OMG seeing that 80col mode show up was emotional!! :D The fact you spend your time working on these old beauties is a godsend. Love your videos so much :)
Don't be so sad, you have followed the right way to identify issues and solve them step by step. I should have follwed the same way trial-error way. It has been very interesting watching you repearing that old Commododre PC clone. HAVE A HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!!!!!!!
Life is life dude.. you did really well in the end. it's working.. you can move on from here well. Get it working fully now and get the case cleaned.. we've all done major mistakes sometimes. Chin up! your awesome and so is your channel. Look on the bright side at least it's not an Amiga hee hee :)....
As well as the disasters a Varta battery can inflict, this was most likely a MOS Technology board. MOS cut corners a lot in order to achieve a low price point, and that is reflected in the high failure rate on their products. It wouldn't surprise me if this board was created with processes that make the lifting of pads and traces more likely than on products from other manufacturers.
I don’t think there was anything anyone else could of done better. You were dealing with a 35+ year machine with acid damage, I think you are being too harsh on yourself. I follow a few channels like yours, but yours is by far my go to, what you do is amazing, your knowledge is second to none and you explain and share your knowledge in away that’s easy to digest. The end result here is you got it working and that’s a massive improvement to its condition before you started, these machines live on because of you. Keep going and doing what you do, and happy new year!
Agree with you being way too harsh on yourself. I’ve been in the retro repairing for the past two years after watching your and other videos - one thing I know is that corrosion is really hard to fix. I’ve destroyed a few motherboards myself. BUT you fixed it and got it working, more than I’ve been able to do so this is very inspiring - please please keep it up!
Mate, don't beat yourself up. Surely it was worth it to see the beast come to life! Your repair skills on the traces are solid too. It is an old corroded PCB and you brought it back from the dead. Well done and HNY!
glenn.....do not quit....that board was already damaged from the battery ..vapor or whatever..you do what you do and got it working! like you said you learn from your mistakes..you motivate me to learn and do more! dont you dare quit...your great glenn!
Don't hang up the boots Glen, but start making videos about unblocking toilets instead, you'll get a lot less S*1* :) , no seriously , sometimes you have to break something to fix it, and the amount of times I've tried to fix stuff and it's ended up in the wheelie bin it's unreal, so well done on keeping at this and I look forward to seeing further progress with this 👍
I'm not nearly as skilled as you or lots of your commentators but I just want to post some positivity that I think you did a great job in a really bad situation. I think you were tearing those traces because they were extremely brittle from corrosion, it wasn't anything you were doing wrong, it just would have been (like you said) the foreknowledge that it was too gone to at all fix so snipping legs. I think you did a great job and would hate for this video to ruin your confidence, love your channel.
From nothing to posting and attempting to boot I'd say you persevered until you got results, so no I don't think you should give up doing what you do, long may you continue, and happy new year to you and yours 🎊🎉
Loved that honest response when the board came to life! Hope you don't feel too bad about the damage; some boards start off poor quality and the battery damage just makes it worse. But ya, I don't think you should hang up your tools! You did get it working after all!
Great perseverance and sometimes the reward is not in the destination, but in the journey itself. Looking forward to part 2, even though I am an Amiga man. As for wrecking the board, no you didn't because it now works, which is what it did not do when you started. Happy New Year Chris.
Glen, while I didn’t enjoy seeing you beat yourself up over the damage, I absolutely loved watching the repair process and the moment you finally got a video signal! Keep making repair videos. They are educational and entertaining, whether they go smoothly or turn into ‘nightmares.’.
For the RAM, one thing you could have tried before removing and replacing it all was a trick we did back in the 80's called "dead bugging". That is, to seat (not soldered) replacement chips on top of the existing ones to take over functionality. I was a useful trick for finding dead chips before chip testers were readily available and worked pretty well most of the time.
I had the exact same happen to me with an Amiga 2000 and Varta battery spill. Next to no blue / green contam but the cpu socket all the way over to the cpu expansion slot basically fell apart and lifted traces and pads as soon as I went anywhere near it with a soldering iron, Made me questioned what I was doing but I have lost count the number of successful recaps and repairs I have done over the years so put it down to it being a real Varta of death moment and there was next to nothing else I could have done.
Thanks for being brave enough to put that one up. We are all used to stories of success and overcoming adversity. And we hide the corpses in the basement. It's natural on a personal level but on a social (media) level it makes everybody else even more desperate about their own failures. This has nothing to do with Schadenfreude, but heartfelt commiseration. You may feel horrible about yourself but you did something good to everbody else with sharing it. I don't know if this is comprehensible. As for the board. Commodore was known to use cheap materials and I have heard bad things about their PCBs. The delamination could actually be due to moisture, getting into the board over a long time being stored in humid conditions and probably helped by the corrosion. I mean none of us would expect these things just to fall apart...
Please please please don't stop doing these repairs. What we want to see is a fellow hobbyist doing things that are within our own reach. We are not hearing to see a vintage electronics expert restorer from the Smithsonian. You were dealing with a seriously damaged computer which is now working. Almost certainly, if it were not for you, it would be in a landfill. A great video and I cannot wait for part 2.
Glad its all working in the end. sometimes repairs don't go to plan. I'm a big fan of cutting out chips that can be easily replaced like logic and ram as it does aid with the hole clearing (a pencil lead, from a propelling pencil can be used to clear a hole if suction isn't working as the graphite repels the solder. but trace repair for such corrosion was a good move and the right call.
You got a working machine. Ignore any thoughts or peanuts that have a go at you. We've all been there. This is a continuous learning journey. Good on you! Can't wait till the next instalment. Good on you! Makes me want to dig out my PC40-III .. seriously Well done.
I don't think you should give it up, you got it working :) I've made repairs I could've been happier with but we chalk it up to experience and keep going. Maybe invest in a hot air gun or something to heat the boards up with to make it a little easier to desolder. And when they're all manked up with corrosion, it's never an easy task. Well done for getting the thing to fre up!
We humans fail our way to sucess. The only way to get better is to keep failing until we finally learn all the pitfalls. I really enjoyed following the process (like all your videos) and following your thought processes. Thanks to you I've built the courage to try a few things myself, some were total failures, however I have managed to ressurect a couple of A500's. Please boldly continue - were all learning here!
Man you did a good job becose you have a working board now! The batteries at those Commodores are pretty often lethal! Much worse I know from my general PC machines. Working on a board like that is a mine field! 2 days ago I worked on a board to install a socket for the Dallas RTC. And it was a total different story working on a board with no corrosion at all! Regarding your HDD - these seek errors are pretty often caused by stiffed stepper motor - afaik you can access the spindle from the side of the drive and a bit of a machine oil can make ot work again. I have just found you channel and I like it! Keep going! 🎉
Well done Glen. Hopefully the rest of repair will be piece of cake. Btw. I usually try to drill stuck screws. Though on this delicate pcb, it might not be a good idea.
I thought the board was a goner. The way I look at it is you took a broken board and made it work so that's progress. It was always going to be a gory mess given whatever was spilled/leaked on the board, which (to me) is more than Varta juice. Maybe do a pH test? to see if you should be doing a submersion treatment to neutralize whatever might be hiding under whatever you didn't remove. The look on your face when the 80-col displayed was priceless! Don't give up now!
I am not an expert myself, but I have repaired some boards, and there is a sort of rule for such cases. Sometimes, you can save either the board or the chips, but you cannot save both. If the ICs are irreplaceable, just heat the board with hot air (or a flame) and extract them with pliers. If the board itself is important, simply cut the legs of the chips, remove them, and then work with each pin individually from both sides. It's MUCH easier this way. Yes, it hurts to damage potentially good chips, but there is no other option. Also, don't take it too hard, and try to learn from such mistakes. Good luck!
This was a long video, I think maybe it needed a bit more cutting, but 3 weeks into 1:15 is quite a bit of cutting already. I personally go back and forth between trying to make something as pristine as possible and functional. Normally I fall on the side of functional. In the 1980's when that thing came from a factory was its time to be some type of mint condition unused machine. I'm not sure I even would want to use a machine in mint condition, I think that's the sort of thing that sits on a wall or in a case forever, no real use to anyone. The fact that you had it working in the end is a triumph, and one more machine that can run software again instead of going to e-waste. Look at them as battle-scars if you will. That thing survived, and it sure wasn't healing itself up, you did that. Also, I learned a new technique from you of repairing a through-hole with a wire from the trace to the hole. The failures are important too, especially if they lead to a success.
Mate, you had a go and got it working, that's what counts at the end of the day. Very likely the battery juice had damaged the board and if you'd not cleaned that up it would have failed in the future, at least now you have a reliable board. You need to keep going, next time you'll get a better result, given what you just learned. BTW I saw Mend It Mark using solder tweezers to remove chips in a resent video. I'm going to buys some, it looked like a good tool.
"Never give up." That's my two pence worth of advice for you Glen. I first saw that phrase in a "cartoon" showing a pelican trying to swallow a frog, but the frog was reaching outside the bird's beak, choking the bird, and preventing the action from taking place.
You did well, working on old damaged boards, you live and you learn 👍 I had too move components from an A500+ to an A500++ it went well but was tricky, some parts fell a part. It’s worked which is the key point 😏
As a carnage causer on a battery corroded Amiga 2000 board, which took 3 months to repair some of my own mistakes, you won't get any criticism from me. The old leaky batteries do a real number on PCBs and dealing with corroded solder is a flipping nightmare. You managed to work through it and still got the board to run, which is a victory. Can't wait to see this machine cleaned up and although I'm not a huge fan of MS-DOS, this is a Commodore after all and it's great to see it working.
For writing the 360K disk - get a Greaseweasel! It allows you to hook up that very drive to a modern computer, and write out an image. Writing DD images on HD drives are not the best idea, usually. AFAIK the HD drive head leaves a much "narrower" trail of signals, which is not always picked up by the DD drive. Alternatively, you can just hook up a Gotek to the board probably, with all the tools on disk images, as needed.
Great Glen!!!! I always like watching your videos, I really enjoy it a lot and I hope to see more videos from you in the future, so keep up your great work!!!!! o7 Cmdr 🙂
Far, far too harsh on yourself Glen - people have scrapped boards in far better condition than that and wouldn't have even attempted to get it going again. I suspect most of that damage was already there, and a bit of heat just finished it off - avoidable, possibly but unlikely. With hindsight yes you could have cut all the IC's off but until you get stuck into things you just don't know, and experience will only take you so far. Things to possibly consider going forward, bathing the boards in something to neutralise / clean the boards up before starting may give better insights as to what you will be working with, leaded solder to assist with desoldering and requiring less heat but otherwise keep at it. If you want some solder, shout up - I have plenty here and can send some your way. Points for you to consider once you get past the emotional roller-coaster it took you on: What have you learned from this? Can it be applied to future endeavours? If you could turn back the clock, what would you have done differently? I'm not sure I could have gotten through it personally, and 2 bodge wires, and 26 repaired traces isn't anything to be worried about, like you said most of it can't even be seen, They are well run, and protected from shorting. I recall a motherboard repair recently where their was more bodge wire than traces on the board by the time they had finished just due to the battery damage and the way the board was stored, I was actually shocked how much damage could be done.
I have quite a lot of experience changing thru-components and I have worked on some boards that I can only describe as being weak, whereby using the techniques that have worked well on other boards simple don't work on the weak boards, causing pad and track lifting. When this happens I usually resort to the technique that you finally used and simply cut out the components, providing replacements are readily available.
I wouldn't exactly call it your fault. There is something about these and some other Commodore boards. Whoever manufactured them, made them in a way that they are not so easy to reapair without causing at least a little bit of damage. It's usually vias that like to pop out of the board.
Keep doing what you're doing mate... Some damaged pads and tracks on an old corroded PCB, we've all been there at some stage. Important part was the board is now alive and before it wasn't 👍🍻 HNY mate.
Great job. Sometimes I am doing repairs of eaten traces. It is not easy. It is good that You show how hard it can be. Please, create more content like this.
Don't beat yourself up over it. There is a reason there is a 're-pc10' motherboard (commodore and their poor quality standards) I thought you did a great job. It works and its still original.
Your being WAY to self critical here mate, RMC had a machine they deemed unfixable and did a main board replacement, you did the work and got it going, keep up the amazing work, keep saving these machines
It happens to most repairers no matter how good they are - if the battery acid has got under the solder mask by way of the cooper vias then no matter how good you are traces will come off - also you are lucky because with a multi layered board it can kill internal layer traces and then there is no recovery! just keep going - (Bits and Bob)s is a good channel to see how many times he has repaired traces and had similar problmns!
So a 40 year old board, which was probably manufactured as cheaply as possible with Commodore being cheap bastards, with significant battery damage delaminated under repair work, and being your first of this particular board. Its a learning experience. Luckily if you really wanted to you could get a brand new replica PCB and be done with the board damage and ugly bodge wires. Another cool video. Keep them coming.
Ofcourse you need to keep on doing this!! I am currently working on a pc10-III as well. You can use a gotek with flashfloppy and it will boot from that. If you don't have a gotek i could try to make a couple of 5,25 floppy's for you. If i get ly 5,25 drive working that is. Just let me know, and keep up the good work!!
Glen defo don't stop. It's easy here sat watching ( I instantly thought cut the legs when we saw the mess after first IC removal. ) . What you should always do is ask yourself what have learned? What could I have done differently. What does this mean in future? If you have replacement chips just sacrifice the chip to save the mobo.
I'd say keep going, brother. No one is amazing at anything from day one. Practice makes perfect. Don't dwell on the mistakes. This is how we learn and get better.
Don't throw the towel in. We're only human after all and I really enjoy watching your streams. In the words of Styx, "Please don't go" Happy New Year 👍
Aaah mate. As soon as I saw that board I got bad vibes. I went to replace buttons on an old MIDI sequencer a few years ago and pads lifted all over the place. The board looked EXACTLY the same as that, I figured it had been left in a moist environment, but it could be chemical as you say. 😢
Well done for getting the board working, if it wasn't for people like yourself, these things would probably end up in land fill. Looking forward to the next instalment!
Next time you get a board that has heavy corrosion and oxidation.. spray fly rust remover over the affected areas, use a soft paint brush plastic. I have done this on many boards that is heavily affected.. when I can see that the pins are getting free from corrosion.. I use vinegar to neutral the acid .. and flush with water and soap cleaning with paint brush again under hot water.. after that the flux and new solder makes it a lot easier to get the chips off.. and use 40% led soldertin.. or pure led .. that lower the melt temperature a lot..
Not for me to say how you should feel but what I saw is the successful repair of a very old computer which had suffered serious damage due to corrosive fluids leakage out of the on-board battery. In most cases motherboards which such kind of damage are a write off i.e. they will never work again. In this case the board ended up with someone who cared enough to make the weeks-long effort to remedy the damage. The computer is now working again thanks to such effort. With hindsight it seems that a different approach to replacing ICs would have lead to the PCB retaining its original copper features but to what degree it is impossible to say. The corrosion was widespread and the integrity of tracks and holes had been compromised whatever the stress at which the de-soldering subjected them to. I don't think you are bound by any regulation mandating you to execute a repair according to official best practices. There isn't such a law! Thank you for the huge effort and the great video 😊
I think we all know that feeling. And it really sucks... But you definitely should NOT put up the tools. You have a great channel and you do a lot of good for the community. We all have off days sometimes. Keep up the good work!
Sometimes repairs can really push your skills and test your confidence. I’ve been there (often). But gotta use them as learning experiences and move on.
Similarly I've learned the hard way over years of fixing arcade boards that some boards are beyond safe restoration. Attempting to remove ICs will simply cause damage just because they're that old and corroded and sometimes, as you've also learned it's just easier to cut and remove an IC... unfortunately you can't know that until you try to remove one and done damage :) Rams as you know are especially tough to diagnose in circuit so there's no way to be sure for certain that a specific ram is dodgy most of time time ... I wouldn't think you're responsible for the damage on the board, it was always going to end up that way if one tried to remove those ICs and it's an inevitable consequence of trying to work on this old, obsolete junk we like :) . I've worked on some monitors where the traces simply lift off from the heat when you try to desolder a simple capacitor. Damage is inevitable and it's rather your ability to repair it that matters. Rather than blame yourself you should consider the alternative... this machine wasn't working, destined to rot away and end up in a landfill and it's now booting and is not far off being a fully functional machine.
personally i'd have tried to neutralise that corrosion on those chips and under them by scrubbing with diluted phosphoric acid rust killer, it seems to work fairly well, rather than just removing them, if not really necessary ,from what i can see in the vid, the corrosion is mostly minimal, just surface corrosion, an acid clean would likely have got rid of it ok..as for recapping, i dont think necessary, ones on mine are perfectly ok, electrolytics last much better than many think
You can (probably) use the 74LS157 directly as address multiplexer, since DRAM works the same with inverted addresses. Because all bit locations are equal or interchangeable in regular random access memories.
I ended up causing some damage to mine too trying to remove chips, you are right that it would be better to snip off the chips rather than try to desolder them
You got there in the end with just snipping out components and removing one leg at a time as best practice for heavily battery damaged areas. As for vias full of old gunked solder it's often better just drilling them out with a jeweller's drill bit by hand rather than trying to desolder them. I'd suggest watching some of "Chris Edwards Restoration" channel's Amiga 2000 & 3000 repair videos here on RUclips as he has a *lot* of experience with diagnosing and repairing battery damaged boards and has some great demonstrations of techniques with high success rates although obviously with boards in a state like this one some damage will be unavoidable.
If you want to repair boards that use standard chips you need a Retro Chip Tester Pro. It pays for itself the first time you use it. but you need to be doing a lot of repairs to actually need something like this. Personally I've used it to help repair thousands of arcade boards so to me the price to build it is worth every cent, knowing that now I can test almost any off-the-shelf part that has 32 pins or less.
I don't think your issues with this board were a lack of skill, tools, or knowledge. Varta is a nasty word in retro and you tackled it head on. Far from thinking you should avoid these types of restorations, I think you should keep on going. That poor little Commodore might have passed into the great bit bucket if you hadn't come along and tackled it. SO keep up the good work and thank you for bringing us along.
What can I say... somehow I don't think sorry quite cuts it and yeah I know its just an old PC but for me it was truly one of those holy grail items but that damage... It has made me question everything related to this channel and the work I try to show here. I'm not an expert (understatement) but to have wrecked this board as I did... well... I hope you understand how annoyed I am with myself for it, let alone how annoyed the community must be.
A replacement motherboard is always an option but it is a very costly one and given that this now works, even with the damage I don' t think it would be the right thing to do. I'm not really a fan of replacing PCBs for the sake of it.
Goodevening!
First of all - never give up!
Second of all - expect the unexpected
You've done a great job and al be it almost at the point of giving up, you just found out what issues you can run in to.
even when unexpected like this it does show yo you can still recover from issues you have ran in to.
Let this not be a lesson, but more an inspiration to anyone not to give up too soon.
Not a repair-man myself (yet, who knows), I haven't really seen board delaminate like this on other channels I am following. Most of the issues there were indeed combinations of:
- leaking varta's,
- bulging or leaking capacitors,
- shorted or exploding tantalums (which I did expect to happen here to be honest)
- rifa's that let the magic smoke escape
I'd not replace this board, but use it with pride. You actually made it working again!
When it comes to the HDD: please don't format or try to write to this unless you have been able to set it up correctly in the bios.
The HDD most likely is of the XT-IDE type which will not be compatible with AT-IDE that we are more familiar with.
At least you found details of the drive already: 782 cylinders, 4 heads and 27 sectors/track which is not really standard but more like the RLL format.
If the BIOS thinks it's a different type of drive that has 5 or 6 heads for example, those read errors can be expected. Check with Checkit what it might give you back there as the drive type and heads/cylinders.
Good luck and - thanks for sharing.
All the best for 2025!
As the saying goes, bud. "You can't make an omelette, without breaking a few eggs."
I wouldn't beat yourself up over mistakes. Everyone makes them. If you don't learn from them, and use what you've learned, "then", it was truly for nothing.
The thing is alive and kicking, and if you wanna feel better about it, maybe put in time to make the best possible trace repairs you can, the type that will last for years to come.
Was a great watch, from start to finish, and was nice to see the thing come to life.
🍻 Cheers, and HNY, man.
What the hell man, Your repair of this motherboard is fantastic.
This is from my experience of fixing corroded boards too.
When dealing with corrosion damage, the traces are all going to be super fragile and break when you look at them. THIS IS NOT YOUR FAULT, AND THERE IS NOTHING YOU COULD HAVE DONE TO REALLY PREVENT THIS.
And to make matters worse, corroded solder utterly resists your work. So you have to use extra time and heat and it just cooks the fragile traces and pads. Again, not your fault.
Use as many bodge wires as you need. Nothing that has been varta bombed is going to be a museum piece, but getting it running again is a worthy feat. Sometimes you get lucky and don't need to bodge much ... other times you run 30 bodge wires.
The next thing to do is to check all the traces from the 64kb memory block. Perhaps you can use the memtest bios from Adrians digital basement to see if there are specific broken address/data pins that you can more quickly identify.
Hey, you did an excellent job.
All that counts is that it is now working.
Trust me, I've repaired three of those PC10-III, and to be honest, none of them were in that bad of a shape. The leakage of those batteries corrodes the solder and forms some nasty salts that just won't melt. You either have to try fresh solder and a lot of flux on BOTH sides of the board, or, what I would have done as well, just ball it and repair the damage afterwards.
Don't be too hard on yourself, I would have probably given up way before you with that lot of corrosion and that many bad chips.
I did have to replace one of the PLCC sockets on one of mine though, because pins had just corroded off.
Regarding the BIOS: There is no configuration tool. XT class machines usually are configured with DIP switches, but the PC10-III is a bit different: It autodetects everything during POST.
The Commodore utility disk only contained a tool to change the CPU speed (which you can also do with the keyboard by pressing Ctrl-Alt-[S/T/D] for standard/turbo/double clock) and a tool for the ob-board real time clock to set and read the date, albeit it isn't Y2k compatible (I wrote an alternative though).
The only configuration the board has besides the video mode dip switch are JMP208 which disables or enables the hard drive controller BIOS and JMP614 which enables or disables the NTSC color burst on the composite video output, so you can select between monochrome CGA or NTSC color CGA on composite.
You lack of RAM above 512k is caused by either more bad RAM chips or a bad logic chip, (U325 to U328)
Your hard drive seems to be in not too bad of a shape, but from the squealing sound I can hear it has a mechanical issue with the positioner motor bearings. The grease tends to dry up, causing a ton of friction and the motor is unable to step reliably, hence those data errors DOS is displaying.
Try putting the hard drive upright so the shaft protruding from the stepper motor points upwards and then carefully dribble a few drops of sewing machine oil (or WD40 in a pinch) into the gap between the housing and the shaft. Adrian from the eponymous Digital Basement did this as well in one of his earliest videos. Exercise the drive a couple of times to free up the bearing and it should be fully working again! (And without the squealing)
Oh, and by the way: you were showing the datasheet for the 93048-A while this is a 93048-X, which is an XTA drive that is _not_ ATA compatible. Don't try an IDE to USB adapter it won't work. The only way to dump the contents is in this machine.
For the floppy drive situation: You can install a 3.5" floppy drive without issues, but you need a edge connector to pin connector adaptor and a Molex to Berg power adapter. If you want to replace the floppy data cable, keep in mind that Commodore didn't use the IBM style of cable with the twist for drive A. It uses a straight through cable like on an Amiga. Any normal PC drive should work without issue as drive B, for drive A you would need one that can be jumpered to DS0. Also keep in mind that only 720k DD disks will work, the FDC is too slow for the higher bit rate of HD disks.
Keep up the good work!
You definitely earned a subscription!
Greetings from Germany
David
Asides from the Amiga, Commodore used the absolute cheapest PCBs they could source, so I think that's more what the problem is. Honestly, to have gotten away with the small amount of damage actually done, was quite a feat. Pulling corroded chips from a corroded cheap ass PCB is soul destroying. Excellent repair though, well done :)
I think you were being too harsh on yourself. The corrosion was really bad and you learnt from your experience and improved as you progressed on this repair. Watching 3 weeks of work in 75 mins makes it look a bit easier, but I would have thrown the towel way before you were thinking about it. We are here to learn and also to have fun. This machine was not one of the wonders of the world, nor one of the last few of its kind. So I think it was Ok to go at it the way you did. Take it easy and keep bringing us great content.
lol listen to you, simp harder dude, its an old shit computer not a life or death patient on the front lines.
Dear Glen, please don't quit. I like your channel because you also show your mustakes and how to repair them, not many do (not that I care about watching, anyways).
You also have a variety of ancient electronics I remember drooling over when I was a kid in the late 70's/early 80's on your channel.
Please don't let this one PS-10 make you shut up shop. Have a think and have some smaller projects going off camera, let the enjoyment of seeing thi gs spring back to life come back to you.
SO TRUE! Please keep going on, Glen!
Absolutely. Good on you.
Please keep going! Your CRG videos are some of my most favorites on RUclips. One of the reasons they're so great is because, as you said, you don't hide the difficult bits. You're a skilled technician, and with each repair you gain more expertise. Much love! :)
You’re being too hard on yourself Glen. I saw this machine in the flesh and I didn’t think you’d be able to get it going at all!
Don't be upset with yourself. Consider what factors you had control over... not many actually. It's old, and the previous owner didn't do you any favours.
This is what a TOUGH repair can look like. You don't have x-ray vision (presumably, else your channel would be rather different I think).
Your approach was methodical and rational. Your secret weapon was perseverance and it payed off. It always does.
We learn from our own adversity, but sometimes we learn from the adversity of others. That you shared your difficulties with all of us is awesome and highly appreciated.
There are so many fantastic repair channels out there that have the same attitude... Mend It Mark / Adrian's Digital Basement / EEVBlog / Louis Rossman / CuriousMarc .......... too long a list.
Keep doing what you do, please.
You're techniques and knowledge are correct. Battery corrosion, and just corrosion in general, can stump the greatest of technicians. The fact that you can be critical of yourself shows you have even more potential for growth ahead of you. Mistakes can only strengthen your resolve, as what was shown in this video. I look forward to the next repair!
that and the boards are made by lowest bidder and cheapest materials , this is Commodore
Gotta agree with the other comments here - you did a great job diagnosing and troubleshooting, and sometimes boards are just too far gone. Commodore liked to cheap out where they could, too, which makes your job that much harder! I love my Commodores too, but they definitely vex me :D
OMG at the point where you changed the dip switches and the display came to life I wanted to jump up off the sofa snd cheer for you. Amazing! 🤩
You have the patient of a saint Glen. Nice work.
That look of despondency and despair really hit me, I felt your pain. I watch a lot of repair videos , yours, Adrian Black, Epictronics etc. But this is the first time I let out a whoop of joy on seeing some signs of life on the screen. Great stuff 👍🏻👍🏻
“It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness; that is life.”
I've done enough board-level repairs to know they don't always go according to plan. I learn something new with every board I touch, and understand the elation you felt when you saw this one POST. I also understand your anger and frustration at the damaged-traces. You clearly have a passion for the hobby, and the talent to see it through to success. Don't be too hard on yourself.
Sometimes you just get a "problem board". Traditional methods you're used to might not work, and even the best of methods still cause damage because the poor thing is just SO corroded. It's. Not. Your. Fault.
You went back through and did some excellent trace repairs to sections that were going to be messed up anyways. Net-net the computer is better for being in your care. Take it easy on yourself! You did good work and learned some things in the process.
I think your honesty with the projects you undertake is refreshing. I certainly don’t think you should stop. There will always be mistakes in anything you do, but as long as you reflect on them, you will grow and gain more experience. It certainly won’t stop me watching your content
OK, here's the critical comment you asked for. More of this please, as long as you can spend the time to do so. I started watching your videos because I love old Commodores (I own a few 64's and Amiga's), but more so because you're so plainly honest and show us warts and all. Glen, you're awesome mate. Thank you for what you do :)
Please don't stop with this sort of content, this is much more interesting than somebody just cutting together clips of everything working.
Keep the videos coming, we all make mistakes, I know you sent a lot of time doing it, but I have watched you and others and have learnt, how to do work on my Amigas. I have got two A500+ and two A1200. I have recaped them all by seeing what you have done. Old computers were not made too last this long. I had my A 500+ from new. Thanks to you and others there are 4 more Amigas stll being used today.
Color me impressed. The fact it POSTs and attempts to boot is 100% your doing.
I’ve only recently snatched up an original PC-10 for myself. Initially disappointed it was before integrated HD, video and overclock (turbo) modes, I realize now that I was blessed with a board that never included the battery backed clock!
Your struggles are real, but you’ve done a fantastic job getting it to work. Keep at it. You’ve got a gem worth making while again.
As a pure honesty, I am subbed to you for the learning experience. My first attempt to revive a dead board was a Mac Color Classic and I botched it badly, poor technique and lack of knowledge.
You aren't making mistakes or errors out of incompetence, you're applying the knowledge you have and making the most of it. And while you learn and document and show for the community, I also get to learn along with you. Things to keep an eye on, troubleshooting steps, the struggles of flipping the switch and not seeing what you expect.
Not to mention, you often tackle some projects that nobody would even try to fix! Even had this been a failure, it was entertaining and informative.
You definitely sound a bit defeated, but I hope that some of the other comments also encourage you in this. Here for the long haul, don't give up! Another working computer is another success ^^
That must have felt good when it fired up finally.
I felt it haha
as a wise man said.. "you become good by gaining experience , you gain experience by making mistakes" Its all part of being a person that can and does. Dont give up , your down to earth, warts and all approach is what makes your content so educational and entertaining.
The most important thing is you love this system, it's your machine and finally you will get it to work properly. It's a cool looking system from the outside. I learned that usually the solder on the top side is crusty and will not want to melt, the solder on the bottom is easier to melt and desolder away. What I did in a few cases is use a tiny flat screwdriver to scrape off the solder on the top side of the pads. After clearing the crusty parts that don't melt by scraping, you will be able to see if the holes have cleared out of the remaining solder so you can wiggle the part loose. Regarding heat and delamination this is always a problem. Some PCBs are stronger than others. Usually I use a large opening on the hot air tool so there is a wider heating of the PCB. And by heating from a little more distance you can control how much the PCB heats up. Slow heating with more patience is always better. At some time you will find that the area is hot enough to let all the solder liquify. It always remains a risk so I often stay away from heating boards. You can practise with some scrap or faulty PCBs to judge the hot air heating method. I once desoldered a quarter of a ARC X286 model 12 mainboard to clear off battery damage, and after the final vinegar treatment a few data bit traces were broken. So I also had to fix these traces with wires, it's not ideal but the reason is the battery etching away the copper. I know your feeling however after the battery chemicals have damaged the PCB, it is really brittle and fragile, so it's just damage control from there. A battery damaged PCB will never look perfect, however you can get it in top working condition again, that's always a good thing compared to a dead system. I liked how you soldered those thin wires to the traces and through the holes. You could next time perhaps beep out the traces trying to catch any breaks. Anyway, I look forward to seeing this system work progressively better and more reliably, which is what matters really!
lol, the look on your face when it beeped at you Glen! Glad there's a display now though, hard work paid off regardless of how you got there! And to be fair, if you have a method that normally works for you removing components at it fails, that just says something else is at work here.
Merry Christmas
Glen i used to work in the electronics industry. This stuff is not easy. That board was condemned to death by a battery and 35 years. The very fact you got it working again was a miracle. Its like a surgeon with a patient on the table. And you got it alive again. Dont worry about any damage caused in the repair as the damage was already done. Love your channel, i urge you to keep going. Your content is fantastic.
To work better on such badly damaged boards requires more than the common hobby hut setup. A large board heater and hot air, use tons of the good Amtech flux to wash everything down before even attempting to move any chips out, plus a sonic cleaner to clean up the whole mess...
These boards are not great. If you look at the RMC video on restoring a similar machine. They ended up getting a re-made board. Regarding your hot air gun, it might be worth testing its temporature. I've found that on old arcade boards hot air and a small amount of leverage is the key. Heating the chip seemed to be the way forward, but the temporature of the hot air is key. I found 310 C worked best.
Deffo keep going buddy - been there with repairs that keep kicking you in the teeth but it just makes the win more pleasurable!!! I enjoy watching your repairs and like the 'no frills' aprorach and seeing your mistakes... we all make em but just learn and move on!!
Don't give up Glen! The fact that the machine lives is a testament to your patience and perseverance with it. I'm definitely not an expert in repairs, but I think judging by the visable corrosion that was on the board after you removed the chips, let alone on the chips themselves, that no matter how you attempted this, some damage was going to happen regardless of how gentle you were. It's how you dealt with it that matters and the fact the machine is now working. I think we could all feel your emotions when the screen came on. Don't give up and I certainly look forward to more CRG repair videos. Happy New Year, and have a great 2025!
Do not give up, you made it work, and that was a badly corroded area.
I love your dedication Glen, don't be too hard on yourself mate. This board obviously had a hard time while "stored" as you said. But OMG seeing that 80col mode show up was emotional!! :D The fact you spend your time working on these old beauties is a godsend. Love your videos so much :)
Don't be so sad, you have followed the right way to identify issues and solve them step by step. I should have follwed the same way trial-error way. It has been very interesting watching you repearing that old Commododre PC clone.
HAVE A HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!!!!!!!
Life is life dude.. you did really well in the end. it's working.. you can move on from here well. Get it working fully now and get the case cleaned.. we've all done major mistakes sometimes. Chin up! your awesome and so is your channel. Look on the bright side at least it's not an Amiga hee hee :)....
As well as the disasters a Varta battery can inflict, this was most likely a MOS Technology board. MOS cut corners a lot in order to achieve a low price point, and that is reflected in the high failure rate on their products. It wouldn't surprise me if this board was created with processes that make the lifting of pads and traces more likely than on products from other manufacturers.
I don’t think there was anything anyone else could of done better. You were dealing with a 35+ year machine with acid damage, I think you are being too harsh on yourself.
I follow a few channels like yours, but yours is by far my go to, what you do is amazing, your knowledge is second to none and you explain and share your knowledge in away that’s easy to digest.
The end result here is you got it working and that’s a massive improvement to its condition before you started, these machines live on because of you.
Keep going and doing what you do, and happy new year!
Agree with you being way too harsh on yourself. I’ve been in the retro repairing for the past two years after watching your and other videos - one thing I know is that corrosion is really hard to fix. I’ve destroyed a few motherboards myself. BUT you fixed it and got it working, more than I’ve been able to do so this is very inspiring - please please keep it up!
Mate, don't beat yourself up. Surely it was worth it to see the beast come to life! Your repair skills on the traces are solid too. It is an old corroded PCB and you brought it back from the dead. Well done and HNY!
glenn.....do not quit....that board was already damaged from the battery ..vapor or whatever..you do what you do and got it working! like you said you learn from your mistakes..you motivate me to learn and do more! dont you dare quit...your great glenn!
Don't hang up the boots Glen, but start making videos about unblocking toilets instead, you'll get a lot less S*1* :) , no seriously , sometimes you have to break something to fix it, and the amount of times I've tried to fix stuff and it's ended up in the wheelie bin it's unreal, so well done on keeping at this and I look forward to seeing further progress with this 👍
I'm not nearly as skilled as you or lots of your commentators but I just want to post some positivity that I think you did a great job in a really bad situation. I think you were tearing those traces because they were extremely brittle from corrosion, it wasn't anything you were doing wrong, it just would have been (like you said) the foreknowledge that it was too gone to at all fix so snipping legs.
I think you did a great job and would hate for this video to ruin your confidence, love your channel.
From nothing to posting and attempting to boot I'd say you persevered until you got results, so no I don't think you should give up doing what you do, long may you continue, and happy new year to you and yours 🎊🎉
Loved that honest response when the board came to life! Hope you don't feel too bad about the damage; some boards start off poor quality and the battery damage just makes it worse. But ya, I don't think you should hang up your tools! You did get it working after all!
Great perseverance and sometimes the reward is not in the destination, but in the journey itself.
Looking forward to part 2, even though I am an Amiga man.
As for wrecking the board, no you didn't because it now works, which is what it did not do when you started.
Happy New Year Chris.
Glen, while I didn’t enjoy seeing you beat yourself up over the damage, I absolutely loved watching the repair process and the moment you finally got a video signal! Keep making repair videos. They are educational and entertaining, whether they go smoothly or turn into ‘nightmares.’.
For the RAM, one thing you could have tried before removing and replacing it all was a trick we did back in the 80's called "dead bugging". That is, to seat (not soldered) replacement chips on top of the existing ones to take over functionality. I was a useful trick for finding dead chips before chip testers were readily available and worked pretty well most of the time.
I had the exact same happen to me with an Amiga 2000 and Varta battery spill. Next to no blue / green contam but the cpu socket all the way over to the cpu expansion slot basically fell apart and lifted traces and pads as soon as I went anywhere near it with a soldering iron, Made me questioned what I was doing but I have lost count the number of successful recaps and repairs I have done over the years so put it down to it being a real Varta of death moment and there was next to nothing else I could have done.
Thanks for being brave enough to put that one up.
We are all used to stories of success and overcoming adversity. And we hide the corpses in the basement. It's natural on a personal level but on a social (media) level it makes everybody else even more desperate about their own failures. This has nothing to do with Schadenfreude, but heartfelt commiseration. You may feel horrible about yourself but you did something good to everbody else with sharing it. I don't know if this is comprehensible.
As for the board. Commodore was known to use cheap materials and I have heard bad things about their PCBs. The delamination could actually be due to moisture, getting into the board over a long time being stored in humid conditions and probably helped by the corrosion.
I mean none of us would expect these things just to fall apart...
Please please please don't stop doing these repairs. What we want to see is a fellow hobbyist doing things that are within our own reach. We are not hearing to see a vintage electronics expert restorer from the Smithsonian. You were dealing with a seriously damaged computer which is now working. Almost certainly, if it were not for you, it would be in a landfill. A great video and I cannot wait for part 2.
Glad its all working in the end. sometimes repairs don't go to plan. I'm a big fan of cutting out chips that can be easily replaced like logic and ram as it does aid with the hole clearing (a pencil lead, from a propelling pencil can be used to clear a hole if suction isn't working as the graphite repels the solder. but trace repair for such corrosion was a good move and the right call.
You got a working machine. Ignore any thoughts or peanuts that have a go at you. We've all been there. This is a continuous learning journey. Good on you! Can't wait till the next instalment. Good on you! Makes me want to dig out my PC40-III .. seriously Well done.
I don't think you should give it up, you got it working :) I've made repairs I could've been happier with but we chalk it up to experience and keep going. Maybe invest in a hot air gun or something to heat the boards up with to make it a little easier to desolder. And when they're all manked up with corrosion, it's never an easy task. Well done for getting the thing to fre up!
Cant win em all still good to share and watch the journey, don't even think of quitting pal. keep up the good work and thanks for the content.
We humans fail our way to sucess. The only way to get better is to keep failing until we finally learn all the pitfalls. I really enjoyed following the process (like all your videos) and following your thought processes.
Thanks to you I've built the courage to try a few things myself, some were total failures, however I have managed to ressurect a couple of A500's.
Please boldly continue - were all learning here!
Man you did a good job becose you have a working board now! The batteries at those Commodores are pretty often lethal! Much worse I know from my general PC machines. Working on a board like that is a mine field! 2 days ago I worked on a board to install a socket for the Dallas RTC. And it was a total different story working on a board with no corrosion at all! Regarding your HDD - these seek errors are pretty often caused by stiffed stepper motor - afaik you can access the spindle from the side of the drive and a bit of a machine oil can make ot work again. I have just found you channel and I like it! Keep going! 🎉
Well done Glen. Hopefully the rest of repair will be piece of cake. Btw. I usually try to drill stuck screws. Though on this delicate pcb, it might not be a good idea.
I thought the board was a goner. The way I look at it is you took a broken board and made it work so that's progress. It was always going to be a gory mess given whatever was spilled/leaked on the board, which (to me) is more than Varta juice. Maybe do a pH test? to see if you should be doing a submersion treatment to neutralize whatever might be hiding under whatever you didn't remove. The look on your face when the 80-col displayed was priceless! Don't give up now!
I am not an expert myself, but I have repaired some boards, and there is a sort of rule for such cases. Sometimes, you can save either the board or the chips, but you cannot save both. If the ICs are irreplaceable, just heat the board with hot air (or a flame) and extract them with pliers. If the board itself is important, simply cut the legs of the chips, remove them, and then work with each pin individually from both sides. It's MUCH easier this way. Yes, it hurts to damage potentially good chips, but there is no other option. Also, don't take it too hard, and try to learn from such mistakes. Good luck!
This was a long video, I think maybe it needed a bit more cutting, but 3 weeks into 1:15 is quite a bit of cutting already.
I personally go back and forth between trying to make something as pristine as possible and functional. Normally I fall on the side of functional. In the 1980's when that thing came from a factory was its time to be some type of mint condition unused machine. I'm not sure I even would want to use a machine in mint condition, I think that's the sort of thing that sits on a wall or in a case forever, no real use to anyone. The fact that you had it working in the end is a triumph, and one more machine that can run software again instead of going to e-waste.
Look at them as battle-scars if you will. That thing survived, and it sure wasn't healing itself up, you did that. Also, I learned a new technique from you of repairing a through-hole with a wire from the trace to the hole. The failures are important too, especially if they lead to a success.
Mate, you had a go and got it working, that's what counts at the end of the day. Very likely the battery juice had damaged the board and if you'd not cleaned that up it would have failed in the future, at least now you have a reliable board. You need to keep going, next time you'll get a better result, given what you just learned. BTW I saw Mend It Mark using solder tweezers to remove chips in a resent video. I'm going to buys some, it looked like a good tool.
"Never give up." That's my two pence worth of advice for you Glen.
I first saw that phrase in a "cartoon" showing a pelican trying to swallow a frog, but the frog was reaching outside the bird's beak, choking the bird, and preventing the action from taking place.
You did well, working on old damaged boards, you live and you learn 👍 I had too move components from an A500+ to an A500++ it went well but was tricky, some parts fell a part. It’s worked which is the key point 😏
keep it up..your learning.. and i watch because its entertaining... no mistakes means no learnin..
Beautiful Commodore, happy new year. BTW: The older the better, almost like wine....
As a carnage causer on a battery corroded Amiga 2000 board, which took 3 months to repair some of my own mistakes, you won't get any criticism from me. The old leaky batteries do a real number on PCBs and dealing with corroded solder is a flipping nightmare. You managed to work through it and still got the board to run, which is a victory. Can't wait to see this machine cleaned up and although I'm not a huge fan of MS-DOS, this is a Commodore after all and it's great to see it working.
often the most important change we make when working on things is the state of ourselves
Amazing work. All setbacks, screw ups, everything included. This is the reality of difficult retro repairs. Keep it up. We're here for it.
For writing the 360K disk - get a Greaseweasel! It allows you to hook up that very drive to a modern computer, and write out an image. Writing DD images on HD drives are not the best idea, usually. AFAIK the HD drive head leaves a much "narrower" trail of signals, which is not always picked up by the DD drive. Alternatively, you can just hook up a Gotek to the board probably, with all the tools on disk images, as needed.
Great Glen!!!! I always like watching your videos, I really enjoy it a lot and I hope to see more videos from you in the future, so keep up your great work!!!!! o7 Cmdr 🙂
Far, far too harsh on yourself Glen - people have scrapped boards in far better condition than that and wouldn't have even attempted to get it going again. I suspect most of that damage was already there, and a bit of heat just finished it off - avoidable, possibly but unlikely. With hindsight yes you could have cut all the IC's off but until you get stuck into things you just don't know, and experience will only take you so far.
Things to possibly consider going forward, bathing the boards in something to neutralise / clean the boards up before starting may give better insights as to what you will be working with, leaded solder to assist with desoldering and requiring less heat but otherwise keep at it. If you want some solder, shout up - I have plenty here and can send some your way.
Points for you to consider once you get past the emotional roller-coaster it took you on:
What have you learned from this?
Can it be applied to future endeavours?
If you could turn back the clock, what would you have done differently?
I'm not sure I could have gotten through it personally, and 2 bodge wires, and 26 repaired traces isn't anything to be worried about, like you said most of it can't even be seen, They are well run, and protected from shorting. I recall a motherboard repair recently where their was more bodge wire than traces on the board by the time they had finished just due to the battery damage and the way the board was stored, I was actually shocked how much damage could be done.
I have quite a lot of experience changing thru-components and I have worked on some boards that I can only describe as being weak, whereby using the techniques that have worked well on other boards simple don't work on the weak boards, causing pad and track lifting. When this happens I usually resort to the technique that you finally used and simply cut out the components, providing replacements are readily available.
I wouldn't exactly call it your fault. There is something about these and some other Commodore boards. Whoever manufactured them, made them in a way that they are not so easy to reapair without causing at least a little bit of damage. It's usually vias that like to pop out of the board.
Keep doing what you're doing mate... Some damaged pads and tracks on an old corroded PCB, we've all been there at some stage. Important part was the board is now alive and before it wasn't 👍🍻 HNY mate.
Great job. Sometimes I am doing repairs of eaten traces. It is not easy. It is good that You show how hard it can be. Please, create more content like this.
Don't beat yourself up over it.
There is a reason there is a 're-pc10' motherboard (commodore and their poor quality standards)
I thought you did a great job. It works and its still original.
Your being WAY to self critical here mate, RMC had a machine they deemed unfixable and did a main board replacement, you did the work and got it going, keep up the amazing work, keep saving these machines
It happens to most repairers no matter how good they are - if the battery acid has got under the solder mask by way of the cooper vias then no matter how good you are traces will come off - also you are lucky because with a multi layered board it can kill internal layer traces and then there is no recovery! just keep going - (Bits and Bob)s is a good channel to see how many times he has repaired traces and had similar problmns!
So a 40 year old board, which was probably manufactured as cheaply as possible with Commodore being cheap bastards, with significant battery damage delaminated under repair work, and being your first of this particular board. Its a learning experience. Luckily if you really wanted to you could get a brand new replica PCB and be done with the board damage and ugly bodge wires. Another cool video. Keep them coming.
Ofcourse you need to keep on doing this!! I am currently working on a pc10-III as well. You can use a gotek with flashfloppy and it will boot from that. If you don't have a gotek i could try to make a couple of 5,25 floppy's for you. If i get ly 5,25 drive working that is. Just let me know, and keep up the good work!!
Glen defo don't stop. It's easy here sat watching ( I instantly thought cut the legs when we saw the mess after first IC removal. ) . What you should always do is ask yourself what have learned? What could I have done differently. What does this mean in future? If you have replacement chips just sacrifice the chip to save the mobo.
I'd say keep going, brother. No one is amazing at anything from day one.
Practice makes perfect. Don't dwell on the mistakes. This is how we learn and get better.
Remember to give the toothbrush a quick rinse under the tap before you brush your teeth with it next
Why would he use his tooth brush when he has the wife and kids brushes to choose from? 😁
It's fine, I only ever use the wife's one.
@@CRG 😆😆😆
Gets into the tread of the trainers real nice.
Don't you all have a tooth brush for guest use? That's the one I use.
Don't throw the towel in. We're only human after all and I really enjoy watching your streams. In the words of Styx, "Please don't go" Happy New Year 👍
Aaah mate. As soon as I saw that board I got bad vibes. I went to replace buttons on an old MIDI sequencer a few years ago and pads lifted all over the place. The board looked EXACTLY the same as that, I figured it had been left in a moist environment, but it could be chemical as you say. 😢
hi Glen, Happy New Year ! Love your show, please continue.
Well done for getting the board working, if it wasn't for people like yourself, these things would probably end up in land fill. Looking forward to the next instalment!
An excellent repair job. With board corrosion its always a bit hit and miss as to whether you can keep traces intact. but nice comeback
Next time you get a board that has heavy corrosion and oxidation.. spray fly rust remover over the affected areas, use a soft paint brush plastic. I have done this on many boards that is heavily affected.. when I can see that the pins are getting free from corrosion.. I use vinegar to neutral the acid .. and flush with water and soap cleaning with paint brush again under hot water.. after that the flux and new solder makes it a lot easier to get the chips off.. and use 40% led soldertin.. or pure led .. that lower the melt temperature a lot..
Not for me to say how you should feel but what I saw is the successful repair of a very old computer which had suffered serious damage due to corrosive fluids leakage out of the on-board battery. In most cases motherboards which such kind of damage are a write off i.e. they will never work again.
In this case the board ended up with someone who cared enough to make the weeks-long effort to remedy the damage. The computer is now working again thanks to such effort.
With hindsight it seems that a different approach to replacing ICs would have lead to the PCB retaining its original copper features but to what degree it is impossible to say. The corrosion was widespread and the integrity of tracks and holes had been compromised whatever the stress at which the de-soldering subjected them to.
I don't think you are bound by any regulation mandating you to execute a repair according to official best practices. There isn't such a law!
Thank you for the huge effort and the great video 😊
I think we all know that feeling. And it really sucks... But you definitely should NOT put up the tools. You have a great channel and you do a lot of good for the community. We all have off days sometimes. Keep up the good work!
keep going! I say i done errors to but lurned from them but i still fixed them never give up you will get beter
Sometimes repairs can really push your skills and test your confidence. I’ve been there (often). But gotta use them as learning experiences and move on.
No better man for the job Glen. Never has been mate 🙌
Similarly I've learned the hard way over years of fixing arcade boards that some boards are beyond safe restoration. Attempting to remove ICs will simply cause damage just because they're that old and corroded and sometimes, as you've also learned it's just easier to cut and remove an IC... unfortunately you can't know that until you try to remove one and done damage :) Rams as you know are especially tough to diagnose in circuit so there's no way to be sure for certain that a specific ram is dodgy most of time time ...
I wouldn't think you're responsible for the damage on the board, it was always going to end up that way if one tried to remove those ICs and it's an inevitable consequence of trying to work on this old, obsolete junk we like :) . I've worked on some monitors where the traces simply lift off from the heat when you try to desolder a simple capacitor.
Damage is inevitable and it's rather your ability to repair it that matters.
Rather than blame yourself you should consider the alternative... this machine wasn't working, destined to rot away and end up in a landfill and it's now booting and is not far off being a fully functional machine.
Go on with the channel, i really like you show the mistakes youre making. Thats the best way to learn something!
Please don't hang it up. I love watching motherboard repair videos.
personally i'd have tried to neutralise that corrosion on those chips and under them by scrubbing with diluted phosphoric acid rust killer, it seems to work fairly well, rather than just removing them, if not really necessary ,from what i can see in the vid, the corrosion is mostly minimal, just surface corrosion, an acid clean would likely have got rid of it ok..as for recapping, i dont think necessary, ones on mine are perfectly ok, electrolytics last much better than many think
You can (probably) use the 74LS157 directly as address multiplexer, since DRAM works the same with inverted addresses. Because all bit locations are equal or interchangeable in regular random access memories.
I ended up causing some damage to mine too trying to remove chips, you are right that it would be better to snip off the chips rather than try to desolder them
You got there in the end with just snipping out components and removing one leg at a time as best practice for heavily battery damaged areas. As for vias full of old gunked solder it's often better just drilling them out with a jeweller's drill bit by hand rather than trying to desolder them. I'd suggest watching some of "Chris Edwards Restoration" channel's Amiga 2000 & 3000 repair videos here on RUclips as he has a *lot* of experience with diagnosing and repairing battery damaged boards and has some great demonstrations of techniques with high success rates although obviously with boards in a state like this one some damage will be unavoidable.
If you want to repair boards that use standard chips you need a Retro Chip Tester Pro. It pays for itself the first time you use it. but you need to be doing a lot of repairs to actually need something like this. Personally I've used it to help repair thousands of arcade boards so to me the price to build it is worth every cent, knowing that now I can test almost any off-the-shelf part that has 32 pins or less.
I don't think your issues with this board were a lack of skill, tools, or knowledge. Varta is a nasty word in retro and you tackled it head on. Far from thinking you should avoid these types of restorations, I think you should keep on going. That poor little Commodore might have passed into the great bit bucket if you hadn't come along and tackled it. SO keep up the good work and thank you for bringing us along.