@@christopher2684 I think that mostly applies to like public defenders, in criminal trials. This is like some intellectual property disputing or something. Hyper specialized and not strictly criminal tho
Yeah but the reality is if you own a company and some douchebag you pay to make a game for you starts keeping everything on a private server, then leaves the company, then goes and makes an identical game to what you paid for, you'd sue him too. I'd bet money you'd be the first guy to break down and look like a hypocrite by doing what nexon did. Just people people like Charlie like the game doesn't excuse one shady guy from ruining a bad project. They didn't even bother to make the game look any different.
Cuz he reads the dumbest comments n some of those comments are obvious bait. I wish he’d stop arguing with them cuz he ends up repeating himself 100000000 times
Company A pays employees to make a product. Company A owns the product that the employees make, contractually, and logically. If employees quit a company after being paid to make a product for that company, then they try to sell that product themselves. That is unethical, and illegal. If this is allowed in practice, then companies would constantly be fighting this same fight Nexon is fighting. With former employees stealing the work they were paid to do for that company.
you can't copyright game mechanics, assets and game engine are third party so they can't own those either. The point here is what exactly Nexon is trying to claim they own because there isn't a whole lot they really can claim as their own IP. Given how this game is built on a third party game engine so 99% of the heavy lifting is done by the game engine devs already, it's very conceivable that they just rewrote the higher level stuff from scratch in a relatively short time.
@@marcogenovesi8570 plain and simple, IP protects companies from being taken advantage of like this; paying employees for their time, and paying for resources for those employees to design a product, only to have those employees finish the product, then quit the company then use all the knowledge and resources gained by employment in that company to make and sell the product themselves before the other company can. A world that would allow this would be unattainable and unsustainable. It’s unethical, and therefore protected by both IP laws and employment contracts (company owning what employees create on company time)
@@marcogenovesi8570 Your using Charlie's brain dead strawman arguements. That isn't what their being sued for. They stole practically everything. The list of what they didn't steal was way shorter than the list of what they did steal. They took attack patterns, visuals, mechanics, systems, character designs, code, level designs, ect. It's not that they were using the same assets. It's that it's literaly the same game, outside some differences, which is obvious since they stole the game then added stuff to it after the fact. I don't get why people are taking this take that charlie made and using it non-stop when it's not even correct.
@@F34RDSoldier805 "assets" are also animations (attack patterns), whatever "visuals" are, character designs. Mechanics can't be "owned" by copyright and unless they have a patent you can copy those. Not sure about level designs and code. Afaik they have not demonstrated the code was stolen and I heard nothing about the level design. I personally don't believe that multiple people can be so catastrophically retarded to just steal a whole game from a larger company and expect to not get turbosued
The issue is not the assets. It's their use. Literally copying everything and putting it back in the same exact position they left it when they fired themselves from Nexon. Just because I write a book, I can't just copy Harry Potter word for word after reading it, changing the name and claiming big names are trying to bully me when they sue.
The strangest part about it is in his initial video about it he openly admits he is insanely biased, but then talks about it later as if he has an objective view of the facts. The only responsible thing to do in the case where you know you are biased about something is to take a back seat and let it play out.
Idk, I feel like you misunderstood much of Kira's video. The lawsuit has nothing to do with assets. Basically, from what Kira reported, was that a group of people were working on a game at Nexon, and this game was identical to dark and darker. Some of these devs decided to leave mid way through the project, effectively killing it, and start up their own dev studio. What the lawsuit is about, is not assets, but the fact that they basically took the game nexon was making and made it themselves. Which if true, which it seems to be as these were testimonies of devs that were on the project, means that the game is effectively dead. I'm not sure exactly if what they did is illegal, as copying an idea isn't really a crime as far as I know, but the fact that it happened like this will have made them a company no investor will trust.
So its a skill issue and they cant let it go... They failed their game and someone else made something similar. So work experience is lawfully unjust now.
@@Ucj334esd I haven’t heard a single good thing about nexon, but it’s kind of scummy to get hired on a project, take the pay, and plan to jump ship midway through development with a huge chunk of the team to continue the project on your own. It’d be one thing if nexon cancelled the project, and then they made their own, but the devs are the ones that caused it to fail in the first place.
@@chickenbath No one is obliged to work for a shitty company though, which is what you're arguing. We don't know enough. What if Nexon was a scummy employer? Why should those devs stay to work on a project for an employer they don't respect? They mass walked out for a reason, which I doubt was to take a huge career gamble on a half-baked game. If that killed the game it's Nexon's fault for failing to retain key staff for the project. Edit: Also you said 'planned', how do we know any of them planned to leave when they started development? Massive assumption
Bad take from Charlie. He’s missing the point. You can’t copyright a tire, or a steering wheel either. But if I worked for a car company and was paid to design a car, it would be unethical for me to finish designing that car, then quit the company, and try to sell it myself. Every company has contracts in place to ensure they own everything an employee creates on company time. Nexon is not arguing about the physical assets Ironmace used, or the genre of the game. They are arguing that they paid those developers to make that game for them. So they own it. Ironmace cannot quit and make the same game, using all knowledge and assets they learned while making the game for Nexon. Intellectual property (IP) is a category of property that includes intangible creations of the human intellect. There are many types of intellectual property, and some countries recognize more than others. The best-known types are patents, copyrights, trademarks, and trade secrets. Trade secrets are a type of intellectual property that includes formulas, practices, processes, designs, instruments, patterns, or compilations of information that have inherent economic value because they are not generally known or readily ascertainable by others, and which the owner takes reasonable measures to keep secret. Intellectual property law gives the owner of a trade secret the right to restrict others from disclosing it. In some jurisdictions, such secrets are referred to as confidential information
Explain in detail how game mechanics can be classed as trade secrets. Anybody that sees the game knows the game mechanics, that violates the "not generally known or readily ascertainable by others" in your own definition. So since there were no patents, copyrights, trademarks or trade secrets involved here how does this stand
People should stop taking sides on this situation. There are clearly valid claims on Nexon’s side considering the search and the odd defense made by Iron Mace.
Bad take from Charlie. People need to stop taking a side without knowing the facts regardless of what you think about Nexon or Ironmace/ Dark and Darker. The circumstances lean towards Nexon being right. The facts: - Nexon’s P3 gaming code was leaked to the public when the Dark and Darker dev team worked there - the Dark and Darker dev team are outspoken about how they did not like Nexon when working there, and how disappointed they were with P3 being cancelled - Dark and Darker looks exactly like Nexon’s P3 game - You cannot leave a company and then start working on the same idea that the company was paying you to work on. Most contracts stipulate the IP you work on or come up with while employed, on company hours, belongs to the company. - Nexon are not taking action over the assets in game. They are taking action due to the code and IP of Dark and Darker. This doesn’t prove Ironmace is at fault. But Nexon is within their right to go after Dark and Darker, based on these circumstances. Just because you don’t like Nexon, and like Dark and Darker doesn’t make it right to steal or leak IP. You can’t pick and choose when to enforce ethics, based on the outcome. If people you didn’t like did what Dark and Darker did to Nexon, but to a company you loved, then you’d be siding with Nexon. Nexon paid the Ironmace devs to make this game. Then the Ironmace devs all left Nexon, after leaking the game code, so they could use it and release it themselves. Imagine if this happened in every company that hires employees to make a product. That is the ‘trade secret’ Nexon is claiming. I wouldn’t be surprised if they settle out of court and Nexon ends up owning Dark and Darker or at least owning a share of the profits or owning a portion of the Dark and Darker developer.
you can't copyright game mechanics, assets and game engine are third party so they can't own those either. The point here is what exactly Nexon is trying to claim they own because there isn't a whole lot they really can claim as their own IP. Given how this game is built on a third party game engine so 99% of the heavy lifting is done by the game engine devs already, it's very conceivable that they just rewrote the higher level stuff from scratch in a relatively short time.
@@marcogenovesi8570 you can’t copyright a tire, or a steering wheel either. But if I worked for a car company and was paid to design a car, it would be unethical for me to finish designing that car, then quit the company, and try to sell it myself. Every company has contracts in place to ensure they own everything an employee creates on company time. Intellectual property (IP) is a category of property that includes intangible creations of the human intellect. There are many types of intellectual property, and some countries recognize more than others. The best-known types are patents, copyrights, trademarks, and trade secrets. Trade secrets are a type of intellectual property that includes formulas, practices, processes, designs, instruments, patterns, or compilations of information that have inherent economic value because they are not generally known or readily ascertainable by others, and which the owner takes reasonable measures to keep secret. Intellectual property law gives the owner of a trade secret the right to restrict others from disclosing it. In some jurisdictions, such secrets are referred to as confidential information.
@@fudalefu1 Explain in detail how game mechanics can be classed as trade secrets. Anybody that sees the game knows the game mechanics, that violates the "not generally known or readily ascertainable by others" in your own definition. So since there were no patents, copyrights, trademarks or trade secrets involved here how does this stand
@@marcogenovesi8570 while I don’t know for sure, I doubt Nexon did not copyright P3. And seeing as how Dark and Darker is essentially the same game, designed by the same people, using the same assets, using the same design process then that copyright would be infringed upon. And the trade secrets would be, that Ironmace is trying to sell the same exact game that they were paid by Nexon to design. It is that intangible knowledge of the design of the game, not the genre. But specificy how the game is made. They only know what because Nexon paid them to research it, and gave them resources to make it. Ironmace probably wouldn’t have been able to make the game without that knowledge and experience. And when you take into consideration that P3 code was leaked while Ironmace devs worked at Nexon and were disgruntled by the game being canceled. And the fact that a former Nexon, now Ironmace developer was caught accessing the p3 files from his own private network without permission from Nexon, it all points to ironmace stealing the game rather than re-making it, not that re-making it isn’t in itself unethical, as it pertains to IP laws.
@@fudalefu1 you can't copyright game mechanics, assets and game engine are third party so they can't own those either. You still have not explained how game mechanics can be classed as "trade secrets" when they are clearly NOT a secret. The other fluff you try to claim as "intangibles" is worker experience, another thing they can't own If someone stole files and stuff it's a different case between him and Nexion, as long as the game does not have any of that stolen code it can be published
It's very likely intellectual property theft. "no one's seen P3" Google screenshots of P3 and see P3. "copyrighting a genre" Actually, it kind of looks like the same game. "different interpretation of Kira's video" Kira's video reveals that like half of the Nexon's P3 dev. team left to make IRONMACE/Dark and Darker. The lead designer of D&D stored filed/assets for P3 on a personal server, first with Nexon's permission (cov19 exemption), then w/o permission and expressly against the direction of the company. There's a few more caveats, but I digress. I'm with Charlie. Nexon blows and I hope they lose. However, it's hard to look at the information that's come out so far and make the leap from "disgruntled employee leaves company w/ a game concept, half of the dev. staff & all of the tools to build it" to "decides to make something new, but similar and is now the subject of a frivolous lawsuit."
They look the same because the artist is the same. No one has seen what P3 actually played like. Also the devs can leave and work for another company if they want to. Nexon is probably a shitty dev to work for, there is a reason half a team left and I doubt it's to take a gamble on a half-baked game.
@@Neil-qg9cw watch kiras video and youll see why "half the dev team" quit.. they are shitty but it doesnt mean because a company might be shitty u can break as many contractual agreements as u like.
@@only4hwyes you can work for another company but you cannot take the properties of the company. Also you have to abide by contract you signed or you will be sued.
@@OrangeSC2 they want to shut it down because they've seen Thier cancelled project is a hit. So they just copy The formula of dark and darker. Release it and try to reap The rewards
@reapercometh Nexon cancelled the project due to all or most core developers left so there is no continuing the project... so if they gonna make dnd style game, they are going to make it from the scratch... I really dont think Nexon is going to spend tons of legal fee for this.. I can see this happening in personal level, but for a company, it just doesn't make sense to waste like this. What stops other companies from using the same formula while Nexon is wasting their time on this?
They are making a game of the same genre, same "subgenre" with the extraction thing, with the same unreal assets just after working on Nexon's P3. Nexon may be a shit company but that doesn't mean it's ok, I don't think you have to be a dev to realize that it seems REALLY fucking weird. And I don't know what the point is by pointing at Dota and League. Yes, it was a pretty similar case. What exactly is the point in that argument? It sounds exactly as when as a kid I said I shouldn't be punished because others did X thing too.
I loved my time in Dark and Darker and I wish it was different. But fanboys and internet warriors parroting unhelpful emotional reactions doesnt change the evidence that is extremely damning to the people who founded ironmace. Criminal and internal investigations were already being done on one of the main people heading the game before he left nexon. 10 months later they miraculously have one of the most successful early access games ever? that coworkers in nexon are saying looks identical to what they were working on prior to cancellation? I just dont buy it. Even being anti-corporation/nexon, working internally to get a project cancelled affects real people a those companies not just the big wigs
problem with this here is the people who "worked" at nexon and are currently at ironmace those people most likely signed at non compete or something while they worked at nexon, this is very common in the tech industry and even some ex head game dev's are put on "cool down" since in some of there contracts they cant work on a game for 5 years after working for said company which is wild
But that’s not in the suit, the suit is for stolen assets and trade secrets. As far as I know, the separate suit for the guy doesn’t have that as a notion either. It’s just nexon being vague.
@@zappiestlynx9567 it might not be in the suit BUT they can and probably will bring it up since trade secrets as a definition "a secret device or technique used by a company in manufacturing its products." so they will use they stole our "technique" aka trade secrets with the ex-nexon employees you have currently have employed at ironmace, and they could use this just to waste time to bleed them for money sadly ;/ i wish ironmace the best
People touched it to begin with? Like I have never heard of them nor have I heard of their games because they are all sad kid games that take no development skill a stupid racing game that looks like Disney infinity and highlanders mixed together with cars 😂
@@boinggerss1560 uh.... Blue archive and Dave the diver are under nexon KR lmao, nexon KR and global are different entity. Try to look at both games popularity Dave the diver on steam while blue archive is on RUclips, nexon KR IS actually decent publisher. Nexon kr/jp are actually one of those well respected publishers out there.
This seems like a company just going after little guys but if you look into it deeper there was a lot of wrong doings before Nexon even got the legal system involved.
“They used their acquired experience in Nexon to build the game so they stole it” That’s literally what a job is. Unemployed people shouldn’t opine here.
@@iztunkiztunk6855 No, but if they learn how to make one of Gordan's dishes, then they leave the job to start their own restuarant and then sell that dish there, then THAT IS ILLEGAL.... THIS IS LITERALLY WHAT IRONMACE DID. Whys is this sooooo hard to understaaaaaand.
@@F34RDSoldier805 No it isn't. You can't copyright ingredients for a recipe 😂 Anyone can legally make any meal they want in any restaurant, whether they worked for another chef or not (otherwise the entire industry would be suing each other.) Now, if Gordon Ramsey wrote his recipe down in a book and someone else then copied it exactly for their own book that would be illegal! However, someone else could take all the same ingredients and write the recipe essentially the same way but in a slightly different style and it would also still be legal. Only the way it is written and specific methods of cooking would be protected, which would take 5 seconds to alter on basically any recipe ever made. Absolutely awful analogy.
I just don’t understand the not having the money to fight it. It should take one maybe two court appearances to prove these accusations false and then force Nexon to cover legal fees. There is no way there’s not a lawyer who would take this on. Tbh that statement they made about not being able to fight it makes me think they did do something wrong and are hiding it by not going to court. They COULD fight this.
@@HzizsVynryn i understand this, I’ve studied law quite a lot for life purposes so I don’t know too much about corporate or Korean law, but there are lawyers who take on cases for more than just monetary gain, and once they win on account of their evidence you make the other side pay for legal fees and damages like them having to take dark and darker off the shop and what not. Tbh they could get a half decent lawyer to present their facts since it’s so easy to prove they didn’t steal it.
@@-Mintyy Apparently not, dude stole code and did a bunch of other illegal shit. Criminal case is ongoing in Korea. They are absolutely fucked. Use your PACER account and go grab the docket to read it for yourself.
With the original Dark and Darker up in the air at the moment, I can wager at least a hundred other clones of DaD with almost the same mechanics and assets will show up on the Steam storefront within a year or so before the case is even settled. Whether any of those clones will have the same quality will remain to be seen.
Who cares? You guys just want the game right? I thought the fanboys did not care about stealing assets and similar games being made right? So why worry D:
@@yrh3nfnfj-vb9vc either way I feel like it’s about principle. Obviously law matters in society but in reality most people just want ironmace to win because they have actual passion and care for their game
Its clear Charlie has no idea about the situation other than he wants ironmace to win regardless of the facts. He did say it's okay to steal from nexon sooooo we know he's not impartial to this.
I'm surprised to hear him say he watched Kira's video and he is still talking about assets. That was a huge misunderstanding that you should now know about after watching Kira's video. This isn't about whether assets were stolen or not. It's about south korea's non-compete laws and breach of employee contract. I'm guessing mc probably watched maybe 2 minutes of Kira's video and just kind of skimmed through it lightly without actually watching and understanding it.
Charlies gets this way when he’s emotionally involved. It’s clear at this point that the individual assets aren’t the issue. Ironmace has been solely focusing on debunking the assets claim because they know that’s a slam dunk defense. They haven’t, however, made any real statements in defense of the use of trade secrets and whether P3 was a nearly identical game. Ironmace should’ve let nexon reabsorb them once they proved the game’s success on their own. That was really the only way the game was going to get made legally.
IANAL While this is in Korea, it's worth noting that US copyright law is primarily concerned with people recreating things in a nontransformative "fair use" fashion. This can get dicey in situations like Darker and Darker's who allegedly have a non-trivial amount of people who worked on Nexon's P3 game, including the primary lead manager person who's specifically getting singled out. If Kira's reporting on the matter is true, there's a good case that the manager left Nexon after getting angry at how the project was handled left and created a very similar game to the P3. Nexon could not go after just anyone for making a game similar to P3 ("copyrighting a genre"), they have to prove that that person / people had insider knowledge and/or access to the work / assets / etc. (Intellectual Property) that Nexon has legal rights to, such as is the case with the former employee. If the games are as similar as they are being reported as, it's _more than likely_ that the team created the game in a rather nontransformative way. In US civil law, more than likely is all you need to win. As far as any copyright claims go, that's what Nexon will have to prove, that it would have been unreasonable for Darker and Darker's team to create specifically what they have if it wasn't for their work on P3. We should also understand that copyright is less concerned about the output, and more concerned about how that output came to be. To people can create the exact same thing and both have (copy)rights to that thing. It's only if one created their's with knowledge of the other that they have infringed on the rights of someone else. This is applicable to the idea of "you can't copyrigh a genre" because if Nexon and other corps can't go after games just because those games are similar to ones they never released. They'd have to prove that the creator of those games used essentially forbidden knowledge in a way that infringes on the rights of the owner. "A group of former employees left the company to work on a game that is very similar in many important aspects to the specific project that they were working on for the company." Sounds like a really compelling case for Darker and Darker infringing on the rights of Nexon. It's not slam dunk, but it's sounding like the project manager didn't do a great job at distinguishing the new title from the prior P3. But only he and Nexon know the full extent of that.
It's a bit messy though because creativity inherently involves learning from your own work. Those devs learned things making P3 that they can't unlearn. Are they supposed to never use those building other games? Very slippery slope. The games look similar because they have the same art designer and artistic style is personal. Could they have done more to differentiate it? Yes, probably. Just seems like quite a slippery slope to claim worked experience or an individuals art style as a trade secret, no? Nothing in the game is something (secret) that another person couldn't code without ever working for Nexon. I'd agree with your point if these individuals learned things from Nexon employees specifically while working on P3 and just reproduced Nexon's work, but it sounds more like they got experience through their own work for Nexon over numerous games and then reused things in their own work. That isn't copyright infringement. Reusing your experience (including work for companies) exists in every creative industry.
@@Neil-qg9cw well taking inspiration from your own work doesn't work that well when you signed a contract specifying all your work belongs to them. Add to that non competition agreements, and you won't get far before being sued for "copying your own work"(which rights you have signed away).
Never played D&D and I hate Nexon but it sounds like a good game is getting ruined by its lead developer's ego, stupidity and greed combined big megacorpo greed and pettiness.
Even after the director got fired, Nexon still asked IM to collaborate but IM refused since they wanted all the money with thier ego thinking its their game
Fact here is that people don't want to listen. Because the situation is a big company vs small company, they will go with the small company because they are always the good guys but in this situation they are not. Nexon is not a good company but they are literally doing this because it's their right and those at ironmace broke their contract. It would be like you making a boat and you hired 2 guys to build your boat, you pay for materials and worker fee then these 2 guys left, recreated the exact same boat and say it's their boat and not yours.
No, it would be like you pay 2 guys to make you a boat, halfway through making the boat they tell you that they don't like your ideas for the boat and want to do a different design, you say no so they stop building the boat and you stop paying them, then 2 guys go and build the boat that they wanted to build, you get mad because you can't build your boat so you tell the police the 2 guys stole your boat, the police compound it and the 2 guys can't afford to fight to get their boat back that they built with their own hands 😂 Terrible analogy.
Ah okay, Charlie is behind a bit with the kickstarter info. Also Asmon pointed out very valid arguments Nexon could take to court. Its up to Ironmace to properly establish why they left before crafting the game because it could be considered sabotage as the team themselves on the game left. Then this kickstarter debacle can be used to argue that the passionate team member is emotionally charged and could have leaked code. There’s just a lot more arguments involved now that more clarity is out. I won’t say Nexon is in any right yet but case wise its not looking good with how the court will perceive it. I hope Ironmace can get a strong lawyer so there’s a clear cut defense.
Ik you’re not a lawyer but is there any precedence for a team being found guilty of sabotaging for leaving a game company to pursue a different direction than their current company allowed for? I’m also not being a jerk I’m super curious to read on it and it’s kinda niche to google.
@@joelmcknight9995 I'm not sure about game companies, but there have been innumerable cases where a corporation has won a corporate sabotage case against former employees who leave and either 1) join a different company or 2) form their own company. That's why, if you leave a company where you have access to trade secrets, you'd be subject to a non-compete clause and the law. Also, this is much worse. P3 and DaD are the same game according to Nexon insiders. The disagreement seems to be that Mr. A (the person who got fired by Nexon after leaking P3's source code and stealing company assets via a private server) wanted his own brand and name on P3 but Nexon was taking too long. He was able to convince half of P3's dev team to leave when he was fired, even though the workers' union didn't protect him. He then forms his own brand, Ironmace. South Koreans seem to be firmly in support of Nexon because the notion is that Nexon had intended P3 to not be pay-to-win, subsidized by their pay-to-win titles and that it was meant to build good will with the community. By screwing Nexon over and selling out to Tencent/Kakao, Ironmace is spitting on Nexon's gesture and bring a hypocrite.
@@joelmcknight9995 The point is that it's not only not a different direction, but the same game. Charlie didn't give or doesn't have all the info in this case.
@@crimsondragon627 that idea belongs to nexon since he presented it as an employee and nexon fully funded it. Or should I say he was paid by nexon to come up with the idea to be presented to them
I love asmon but i hate hit takes its legit "yeah i bet they did steal code" and then he never looked at the defence, idk how he skipped over the best thing helping iron maces cass. Asmon thinks anybody who is on iron maces side is only there because they like the game, not based on facts
It's because Charlie acts more emotional about debates and at the end of the day asmon is the more level headed guy that used to work at the IRS. Whenever Charlie "loses" an debate he resorts to ad hominem attacks and tries to rizz himself out of the argument. Doesn't make him a bad guy, but him sticking up for ironmace just because he's addicted to a video game he likes doesn't change how the law and culture works in Korea. It's also worth mentioning that ironmace LOVES self-snitching on themselves. They should have kept their mouths shut instead of talking about this private server or talked about they were rebeling against big companies. If they were smart they would have released this game earlier to make some money out of it before legal attack landed. Instead they kept teasing the players with too many playtests.
It's funny how biased Charlie is for no reason. The fact of the matter is that a judge had enough evidence to warrant a raid on ironmace. It isn't assets, it's the fact that it's practically the same game. It's not just a genre, the torches are the same, the attack animations are the same, the weapons are framed in the exact same way on screen as p3. It's a shame because it was a great game. The whole "big corporation bad" argument means nothing.
@@VelvetAura ah. You think this is a purely asset lawsuit. It's not. You have a fundamental misunderstanding. Watch the video kira made. But no, I mean their intellectual property.
Callisto doesn't play remotely like Dead Space nor does it retain the core mechanic of limbs severing as the main way to kill enemies outside of the tentacles to stop mutations. And it doesn't look like it either. Big company bad is where most of you guya' thoughts end but think a bit more
@@stovetopism this seems like a slippery slope argument fr fr. You’re saying the mechanic isn’t close enough so it’s okay? Man, most games are variations of press A. It’s not THAT deep, copyrighting entire mechanics sounds batshit insane.
@@joelmcknight9995 The point to all this is they signed a contract with Nexon not to do that but they did it. They trusted the guy that made dark and darker with developer stuff and agreed to never use it when he leaves but he did and that's the problem
I worked for a trucking company for 15 years. After I left my job as a trucker, I couldn't ever work as a trucker again because I held trade trucking secrets and any new job involving trucking would be ripping off my old job. Kinda sucks, but apparently that's job things work.
I guess it depends on the country you're in, but in most western nations that allow non-competes the company has to pay your salary while your non-compete is active. I'd look into it bro
@derk the bert I'm kidding. My job before that I learned bakery secrets. Secret muffins only our bakery knew how to make. Patent pending trade-marked blueberries. Very secret stuff.
@@hranko3143 you can't just say something like "trucking secrets" then treat me like i am a idiot because i questioned what a trucking secret could even be.
Korean law is different from us laws, in Korean standards they are probably in the wrong and it could MAYBE be proven in Korea but in the US it would probably be outright impossible to prove such a thing
Bad take from Charlie. Charlie is so blinded by his hate for Nexon and love for Dark and darker to see this logically. The circumstances really point towards Ironmace acting unethical. - Nexon paid Ironmace devs to make a game(P3), while they were employed by Nexon. - Nexon cancels P3 . - someone leaks the code for P3 while the Ironmace devs were still employed by Nexon - Ironmace are disgruntled employees who are outspoken of how upset they were to see P3 get canceled - a former Nexon employee and Ironmace developer was caught accessing the P3 code on his own private server. - Ironmace uses all assets that were used in P3 The ‘trade secrets’ Nexon is referring to is not the physical assets from unreal, or the genre of fantasy or extraction battle royal. It’s the fact that Nexon paid these former employees to make a game. So they own that game. It’s unethical for employees to be paid to work on a game, then quit, and release that same game themselves.
you can't copyright game mechanics, assets and game engine are third party so they can't own those either. The point here is what exactly Nexon is trying to claim they own because there isn't a whole lot they really can claim as their own IP. Given how this game is built on a third party game engine so 99% of the heavy lifting is done by the game engine devs already, it's very conceivable that they just rewrote the higher level stuff from scratch in a relatively short time.
@@marcogenovesi8570 To be clear, Nexon were releasing P3. The lead dev wanted it to be only his. That is why he took the server full of nexon property and left. And that is just untrue. If you leave a company and produce the same product that you made/developed using that companies money. You are stealing. Plain and simple.
@@Destroyahx2 you can't copyright game mechanics, assets and game engine are third party so they can't own those either. What "server full of nexion property" are we talking about
@Marco Genovesi But the game can be copyrighted. Nexon and its employees say the game is literally the same as P3. Which if it is true, is stealing. The lead dev for P3 had a private server full of the code of both Nexon projects he worked on for them. He was supposed to delete it and is facing criminal charges in South Korea from Nexon because of the IP theft. That was why he got fired. Some of the P3 team left, and they started Ironmace.
@Marco Genovesi Also, there have been attorneys have said that the case against Ironmouse is very good. From what all the leaked information about the lawsuit shows at least.
I love Charlie but I think he is wrong on this one. He seems to think that IronMace created a different game in the same genre. But Nexon is claiming that it is the exact same game just rebuilt from scratch. Kira's video does a much better job explaining it than I can. What's weird to me is that Charlie says he watched it yet makes claims that the video clearly disputes.
You can buy the same assets right now from unreal and make the same game, they don't own the assets and they don't own the genre or mechanics, many games in the same genre as each other use the exact mechanics, fps games comes to mind, u can copyright characters, specific assets you made, but not too much else, u can even have the same story, marvel and DC stories read like copied homework
@@tommylee7324 yes but if they left, and left all their code with nexxon all they're "stealing" is the generic idea and mechanics which isn't copyrightable
@@klol3369 but that's the problem. They didn't leave things in Nexon. One of the creators were accessing files about P3 to make the game. That would be like working in Apple where you made the next Iphone then left Apple, then started your own phone brand and sell it. That's illegal. Its as basic as copying someone elses homework and saying it's yours and you did it yourself without the help of anyone
I don't understand legal systems, how is it fair that someone or a small company can't defend themselves if the opposition just throws enough money at it?
Better lawyers with more resources cost more than okay lawyers with less resources. Also more money means you can draw out a lawsuit for a longer time, burning the money of the little guy until they have to concede. Our legal systems are far from perfect...
US courts are different than many other countries; we are responsible for our own legal expenses. In -some- cases you can counter sue for lawyer fees etc but not all.
Charlie is really bias to all this, which I understand, but even the Nexon employees who worked with the employees that left to make Dark and Darker is calling them out on it. They literally copied the work. Employees from Ironmace took ideas that employees at Nexon came up with and put it into their game. That is literally a break of contract in most tech companies, which all employees signed. The argument Nexon made isn't that the assets were stolen, but the same assets are being used in the same way. As well as systems, visuals, attack patterns, etc. They literally said it would be easier to list the things that weren't copied because there was so much that were. This isn't an argument about genre, it's literally copying work. Idk if Charlie is being intentionally dishonest, but with all the information that we have right now, it's the Dark and Darker devs that are looking more and more in the wrong. I don't think Charlie is looking at all the information that is out there in this situation. Even Korean gamers, who hate nexon, are siding with Nexon. You can say that you don't care if they stole the game from Nexon, but that doesn't mean they're in the right. Imagine if every dev working in big companies can just work in that company, learn a ton of shit and then take everything they made there and using it to make the same game on their own. Workers sign contracts saying they won't take work done for their company for this exact reason. As of right now, with everything out at the moment, Ironmace looks like they are the most in the wrong. People like Charlie just want a Robbinhood situation to happen with this game whther their in the wrong or not. And I also hate seeing Nexon on any game I am interested in, but I'm not going to make shit up just because I hate them.
Can't believe how misinformed charlie is on the issue, the legal case wasn't even made against stolen assets and IP infringement on genre, Nexon claim was on a non compete clause, P3 have a dev team of 20 people with Ironmace dev as the ex lead of the team, the whole reason why P3 was scrapped and cancelled wasn't even because Nexon have no intention of continuing the game but because IronMace founder ex lead of P3 took 9 of the 20 man team and left Nexon while the project is still in development then used similar assets they used before in Nexon when developing P3 and rebuild the same game shortly after leaving Nexon. After only 6 month after the departure Ironmace annouce dark and darker, and according to the ex P3 staff the similarity of both games are not just of a similar genre type similarity, it was more of a Alpha version game VS beta version game. Whoever is supporting Ironmace is delusional and blind on hatred on Nexon. If Nexon lose this case this will set a precedence for all game development not just for Nexon that its is okay for a dev team to poach staff and left the company 90 percent into the finishing of a game. Ironmace even use resources stole from the company in own private server to rebuild the game. Imagine games like Elden Ring 90 percent to completion some team lead suddenly poach half of the team and start a game called Elden Bing then because of the departure of over 50 percent of original team, Elden Ring got to be cancelled this mayt sounds insane but this lawsuits if Ironmace won that is what it is setting the precedence on. FYI teh list of thousands of assets was brought up in the legal case was not to prove that Ironmace stole the assets as they were available in the store, it was to build a case for the massive similarity in both games P3 VS Dark and Darker, there is zero chance Ironmace is going to wiggle their way out saying both games are very different as they there are too many similar assets used that are found both in P3 and Dark and Darker.
I’ve seen nothing about a non compete clause, but I did find that nexon’s claim was copyright infringement & trade secrets which dosent hold water. Some sources too prove your point would be helpful for those who aren’t adept at finding the information. Otherwise you’re just as guilty as charlie for misinformation.
@Brad DeAngelis Thanks. At this point I'm staying away from this case and waiting for the results, because there's nothing but bullshit flying everywhere.
I don't really have a horse in this race cuz I don't care about nexon or give a damn about whatever multiplayer thing dark and darker is but I disagree with you Charlie, I think you are biased by your hatred of Nexon. You said it yourself, they were building a game at nexon and then left and then built the outside of nexon. Regardless of it p3 was ever going to be released, if they were working on a game like that at the company and then turn around and make the game on their own then that's where the problem lies. Store-bought assets or not the screenshots and dark and darker look almost identical to me. Just because using the same assets is not mean the game has to look like a carbon copy. If you work for any place that involves creation, anything you worked on there is that company's property especially if they had a non-compete clause. Do I think Nexon is im petty territory? Yes I do and obviously knew they wouldn't be able to fight back. What Nexon should do is released footage and the build of p3. That would be the best way to quash the whole thing. Same genre defence or not, it shouldn't be 1 to 1
maybe he is it really doesn't make his points any less valid it doesn't really matter if the game idea spawned from working at nexon. the idea of a generic medieval fantasy or battle royal isn't ideas that nexon owns both are well established genres that are completely up for grabs for anyone to use.
Screenshots tell you nothing. The art style is similar cause they share artists and an art designer. Is the art desinger supposed to radically change his style? He is hired for his style. That's his own IP. P3 had a story and DaD doesn't, which indicates they are different. The onus should be on Nexon to prove P3 is the same, because only they can do so. Keeping it vague and relying on screenshots, reusable assets Nexon doesn't own, and an art style Nexon doesn't own are weak arguments. The only reasonable claims they have are against employees breaking contracts or leaking company data, which have nothing to do with DaD. Ofc this could change if Nexon provides proof, but the little they have is very vague and doesn't prove what they are claiming.
What evidence is that? the one where a employee who's stressed jumped the gun on making a kickstarter that the team had discussed it as a back up plan? and this was all confirmed by another mod in their discord.
@@crimsondragon627 oh no I mean that’s obviously a bad look but it’s to much to put in a message Kira made a good video wrapping it all up I read everything myself to make sure I was just taking his opinion and yea sadly seems like “Mr A” the ex manager of p3 left and took multiple employees causing p3 to go on hold and used the same idea the same unreal store items and he had previously tried to leave multiple times. I get the whole can’t copyright a genre but let’s be honest you can’t work for a company make 70% of a game leave make a almost identical game using the same assets and say it’s fair. Everyone would do it.
Well next time I work at the factory I'm gonna copy all their products and start remaking them identical, with same specification and just changing the name, exactly after firing myself, then claiming big bad corpo is bullying me for building the same thing.
@@LinkaroStrife Hopefully your blessing and fanning public outrage will allow me to bend the laws. Gotta see where the lawsuit goes with Ironmace, and if the case of stealing is applicable
@@LinkaroStrife nah barely remember the reinforced hose factory I used to work at. I can barely remember the production process and specifications after 2 years unemployed. Can still reload the steel braiding machine eyes closed though.
The main problem isn't that they made the game using similar assets and core ideas, the problem is that they worked AT the company that was in production of P3, left the company to make their own game, and them leaving was the reason why P3 was never finished. P3 even got the greenlight from the higherups but the main director decided to leave and the entire P3 team were fucked unless they left Nexon to join him to make DaD.
People really let themselves be blinded by their love of a game and their hate of a company. I get it, I would have loved to play dark and darker and I would love it if Nexon disappeared, that doesn't mean it's ok to stand this type of shit.
The reason why P3 was never finished is because nexon didn't put more people on it. That's it. If nexon had valued the project they would have just replaced the 10 or so people and kept on working on it. They didn't. That's all there is to it.
@@moiseman 10 people leaving wasn't the cause for development to stop, the director leaving was. Everyone else on the team was clueless on how to direct the game anymore, which ended up in 10 or so people following the director to finish the game. Anyone else coming in as a director would have pretty drastically changed what the game would end up being, which is really a coin flip for Nexon because they had already greenlit the project. It's also not ethical (or legal) to receive funding from a company for a game, leave the company right after the game gets greenlit and make your own company to make the same game from scratch (and get a bigger cut), while the original company didn't get to finish it because you left. It's not about "how many devs left", it's about "what role did those devs fulfill". It's pretty clear that you only think this way because it's Nexon, I could guarantee you if something like this happened to FromSoft or an indie company, everyone would be on their side because it's scummy and I don't know how people fail to realise that.
@@moiseman Dude, they themselves have said it, it's not my take or my understanding of the situation, please read more than one side of a story before believing it. Some of the people still working at Nexon who were working on the P3 project have made these statements. Kira has a video on their statements he got from going to Korean social media and translating it. You need direction to keep improving the game rather than just keep doing the same thing the old director did for a year. According to them, everything, from how the doors open, to how the chests open, to how the UI looks, is the exact same as what P3 was like.
There seem to be a misunderstanding if i work for a company and make lest say a game website the company owns the code of that website however the company cant prohibit me to make another gaming website if i dont use the original code i could even make a website that looks super similar and still get in no trouble, is the same with a game, even if it looks similar if the code is not the same they are in the clear.
Nexon also made Blue Archive... That gacha game where almost every character is canonically under the age of 18 and you can have intimate scenes with all of them. They sexualize children in their games and make it a selling point. Evil is an understatement.
To some, sure. But to Nexon's common Maplestory player who is already so sucked in that they're even accepting of the new Maplestory NFT game, they won't care. Most of them won't even hear about it. It's really shit.
Well here in Korea Nexon is already at bottom,hated vastly by gaming community even to the people who play their games. Funny thing is that in this case, Nexon is actually getting support from korean gamers.(even surprising because two weeks ago some big shit came up at their game ‘maple story’ and people were bashing Nexon super hard) Maybe to the western audience Nexon’s name might be tarnished, but in Korea it will not have much effect. Maybe even get some sympathy points.
How does trade secrets not hold any water? Again I’m a guy who considers D&D the best game I’ve ever played. They didn’t just made a game of the same genre. From what we can tell, they remade the same game. The individual assets don’t matter. It’s the combination and application of assets that yielded a *seemingly* identical game. Since we’ve only seen screenshots, It’s possible that the games aren’t the same. But they likely are and only time will tell. And since IronMace can’t afford to fight them, we may never know just how similar they are. If they did leave nexon to make a copy then that does violate the noncompete and they used secrets that made D&D possible. I get where Charlie’s head is. He’s emotionally involved and it’s hard to be realistic
One of the problem people use as example with "you can't copyright genre" is that yes if its two independent company there's not any problem. For example, EA and Activision looks at PUBG and both making a battle royale is fine. Even Epic looking at PUBG and putting it in their game is fine because its made based on public information. However, the problem is that details of P3 was not a public information and the developers worked at the company and took non public information and decided to make their own game. Yes there is over arching genre design but there are specific such as how the internal tools are developed and the drop tables, more specific game logic, game design documents etc. For anyone that thinks Ironmace is in no wrong, that means that they are admitting that corporate espionage is not wrong and should be legal. If you think corporate espionage should be legal or you don't care, then there's no point arguing further. Think about it this way. If company A sends an employee to Company B, figures out all of the internal projects, then leaves the company B and that employee hands over all of the ideas and project details of Company B to Company A. Company A takes those ideas and sends email to all the employees at Company B on a specific project and tells them to bring all the ideas with them to Company A and they convince them by giving additional salaries. Company B is forced to cancel its project because of the employees leaving and Company A successful launches product off of the stolen ideas of Company B. This is what's happened here if all of the internal information are correct. Now if any party is lying than this case falls apart so someone is lying at this point or only telling a portion of the story. The problem is people are looking at this from the perspective of copyright but I look at this as a form of a corporate spying involving an insider and yes in addition to the Nexon's lawsuit against Ironmace there are also ongoing criminal case against the person at fault. This case entirely hinges on the fact that Ironmace team used to be internally at Nexon making the same game that they are making now. This by definition is corporate spying. He worked internally at nexon, took the project information, left the company and created a for profit organization and made the exact same game. Again the big important thing here is that he is an insider. If he wasn't an insider and he simply saw P3 public information and took the idea of PVPVE(EFT etc) in medieval setting and made Darker and Darker it would be fine(which is how most people are understanding it)
The person that made this post actually jumped the gun, it was a good willed thing but Ironmace isn't close to this stage yet and they've closed the dono link
Man, the implications here is downright scary. Nexon is clearly bullying this guy, so like no matter what game this guy makes, Nexon will be there "Oh no no, that's copyright". They wont need to care about being right, cuz they have the money to win being wrong.
Listen, I love Charlie, but he is blinded by his hate for Nexon and love of D&D. Just because the assets are apart of the unreal store doesn't make it right to use the exact same ones as P3. That's like his only argument for why Ironmace has a solid case but it's just not true at all. In reality, a ton of their points can be disproven if what Nexon claims in their lawsuit is true. The police raid is also pretty damning because unlike what Ironmace said about how they were only there for a little and found nothing, they were apparently there for several hours and never published what they may or may have not found. I ended up watching the rest of the Devin Nash video because I was intrigued and didn't want to watch wild hearts, and I wish Charlie had as well. He explains it very well for anybody that is confused and just being spoonfed the same narrative that's been going on for the past week. Hope D&D pulls through though even if the chances are slim at best
Sorry what? How is "not right" using the same third party assets in another game? That's the entire point of third party assets, that many different games can buy and use them. It's the same as stock photos and nobody in their right mind can claim you can't use the same stock photos as long as you paid the commercial use license to the third party stock photo site. They don't own them, the third party that sold them to both owns them, you both got a non-exclusive license to use them in your products.
@@marcogenovesi8570 If he took the files straight from Nexon, to his private server, depending on who owns the license to use and commercialize those Unreal store assets, Mr. A from IronMace may be liable for digital piracy.
@@iToxicMochi If he stole stuff from Nexon servers no matter how it's licensed then it is theft, not "digital piracy". But that's not what Nexion has accused them of
It's like copying math homework or math test. The answers should be the same, but everyone needs to show their own work of getting to the solution. Idk how Charlie's viewers are having trouble understanding such a basic concept.
It baffles me how many people are going to bat for Nexon. We know almost nothing about P3 and it seems like they were never going to release it. So why are so many people acting like Nexon has some kind of established property?
Might makes right. Nexon is the bigger name with more clout by far, that’s all it is IMHO. Never mind that Nexons track record is that even if they did release P3 it’d probably be permanently shut down a year later or something lol.
Charlie is a bit misled if he thinks the court cost would go to the millions, you don't really need that much, the case isn't that deep, there is not much to argue but a few points. The Gofundme could and absolutely will cover the expenses
It's not just 'copyrighting the genre'. Nexon and their staffs' statements so far is basically, the director of IM and their team used Nexon "resources", not just "assets from Unreal store" to develop P3. This means they used programmers, artists, storyboarders, etc etc ON NEXON'S DIME, to develop this game idea, how it works, functions, the "walkthrough" to create this game. Then because of dissatisfaction for working under Nexon, the director takes the entire "walkthrough" of how to make this game (which was developed, again, with people and resources PAID BY NEXON), goes off to make his own company and follows the "walkthrough" almost to the letter to make Dark and Darker. Asmon's argument is, you can't do that, legally. If you could, everyone would do it, and no major gaming company would then ever WANT to fund these 'exploratory expeditions on game development' as the idea holders can just pitch an idea to a gaming company/sponsor, develop the roadmap for like, 99% of the game on the company's dime, then flee to make their own company, follow that 99% roadmap and finish the last 1% to pocket all the profits for themselves.
@@Neil-qg9cw Technically true, as they have yet to prove it in a court of law. By that same metric, neither have IM. However, Nexon definitely must have 'some' evidence for the police to take action, and as Kira pointed out, S.Korea has SUPER strong unions that protect workers but the same union has done nothing against the sacking of the director. One can then infer that the union saw something shady going on.
Yo Sudden Attack is almost identical to CSGO but only has Korean servers and it used to be as popular as league in 2012. Which makes the lawsuit so much more fucked up
Also a real world comparison. Blizzard North develops Diablo II, Blizzard then cancels future Diablo games. Development team of Blizzard North leaves and founds Runic Games to make Torchlight & Torchlight II which are Diablo clones in a different setting. Not that it matters because Korean Law is constructed to ensure the larger corporation always wins, gotta protect the Chaebols.
Good point and I might be wrong on this but didn't blizzard have devs leave and found the studio that are now making stormgate that is basically StarCraft but fantasy.
I hope the next game like DaD to come out is absolutely flooded with people. Watch nexon copy and paste their unfinished trash and slap on microtransactions to everything
@@Twofortyyy Who knows? Because Ironmace was the one who ruined it. That actually said, there is NO EVIDENCE that Nexon tried to interfere in the development of P3. It was just Mr A being 'not comfortable with Nexon'. Oh, and by the way, it wasn't to be Nexon's. It was to be Mintrocket's. Mintrocket is Nexon's subbrend, which is intended to be 'get money money money from Nexon, and make a game that doesn't need much monetization'. And to this, P3 (or Dark and Darker) fits in perfectly. There is not much way to earn something with DnD.
Well DaD was good while it lasted I guess, I suppose it will be fine when Nexon or another company comes out with the same thing in a few months but it's crammed full of micro transactions "rent this sword for a week just for $19.99" "Wanna be the best dungeon crawler? $14.99 a month and you get the battle pass, another 14.99 a month and you can get +10% on gold drops, +5% xp boost etc etc" then people will eat it up baby, gotta play it then, especially when your favorite internet persona is getting a nice check to push it.
Dota Dev's didn't steal files, poach half the dev team, and torpedo a project. The two aren't comparable to a dude taking an idea from a mod he worked on and expanding it into a different game.
@@wintesrain everything was stolen and recreated.. they even used characters from blizzard games with the same name/skills after the case was settled they had to change a lot of things about Dota2 to keep it up not saying you are wrong but sounds pretty similar to me when it comes to a courtroom
@Chococo they dont, thats what the whole case was over. Because valve bought the guy who created Dota(mod in Warcraft) to create Dota 2. Blizzard didnt like this and hench the lawsuit. Dota 2 development suffered setbacks while other games like HoN and LoL had the limelight.
Stop saying Ironmace can’t win a legal battle because they don’t have the funds Nexon has. They raised 40,000$ in 30 minutes, without any marketing. Plus there are almos liek Charlie with millions of dollars that he wouldn’t mind throwing to them too. People just have to admit that all circumstances point to Ironmace being at fault.
I dont know about that. Tell me why the posts that actually tries to present the fact of what happened (without bias opinions for both sides) are being deleted in the Dark and Darker reddit? Who are the bots that are trying to hide something instead?
What have we learned from this situation, Charlie thinks far to emotionally topics and does poor research and just believes things face value, he didn't have much validity before this but he just destroyed what little he had left. Their is nothing wrong with him being wrong, its the fact he to look at the actual good arguments on purpose like literally just watch Asmon's video but he won't because he knows he wrong.
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All I wanted to do was just go into a dungeon and loot was that so hard to ask for
Cant have shit in detroit
Yes. Korea says no unless they get a slice of the pie.
Not if the Koreans can't charge you $1.99 for loot box keys
@@bluemutt9964 Should have let the communists have it
Ironmace is still Koreans so you morns would be paying Koreans anyways lmao
I hate the legal system. Shouldnt cost shit to defend your rights
Yeah and I thought you could be represented by a free public lawyer too?
@@christopher2684 I think that mostly applies to like public defenders, in criminal trials. This is like some intellectual property disputing or something. Hyper specialized and not strictly criminal tho
Yeah but the reality is if you own a company and some douchebag you pay to make a game for you starts keeping everything on a private server, then leaves the company, then goes and makes an identical game to what you paid for, you'd sue him too. I'd bet money you'd be the first guy to break down and look like a hypocrite by doing what nexon did.
Just people people like Charlie like the game doesn't excuse one shady guy from ruining a bad project. They didn't even bother to make the game look any different.
welcome to US court
@@marloncebo242nexon alt account. Fuck em ,they would of ruined the game
Calling it now: Dark and Darker is gonna get remade by someone else undoing all the core ideas of the DaD team such as fun before microtransactions.
Yep best believe someone else is going to swoop in to gobble up the market
I bet it'll be by a company WAY bigger than Nexon. Someone that Nexon wouldn't dare try this shit on.
I really hope someone else remakes this game in ue 5.2 :D
Someone will probably upload a cracked version of the game with private servers.
@@Dakka0451 we can only hope
The state of gaming is just depressing at this point
Mat is such a Goober for ruining this game.
Maybe a silly willy
An utter Goof if you will.
Kind of a poop head
This whole situation is just a bunch of horseradish.
It’s just absolute balderdash
it just seem charlie hating on nexon and doesn't do any research
Charlie has to stop debating twitch chat, dudes actually fighting zombies
Thank God someone else notices this his chat can be braindead idk how
I'd watch his full streams if he didn't interact with the dumbass portion of the chat.
He’s a moron too
Cuz he reads the dumbest comments n some of those comments are obvious bait. I wish he’d stop arguing with them cuz he ends up repeating himself 100000000 times
His chat is full of lobotomized people, it's horrifying
Company A pays employees to make a product. Company A owns the product that the employees make, contractually, and logically.
If employees quit a company after being paid to make a product for that company, then they try to sell that product themselves. That is unethical, and illegal.
If this is allowed in practice, then companies would constantly be fighting this same fight Nexon is fighting. With former employees stealing the work they were paid to do for that company.
you can't copyright game mechanics, assets and game engine are third party so they can't own those either. The point here is what exactly Nexon is trying to claim they own because there isn't a whole lot they really can claim as their own IP.
Given how this game is built on a third party game engine so 99% of the heavy lifting is done by the game engine devs already, it's very conceivable that they just rewrote the higher level stuff from scratch in a relatively short time.
@@marcogenovesi8570 plain and simple, IP protects companies from being taken advantage of like this; paying employees for their time, and paying for resources for those employees to design a product, only to have those employees finish the product, then quit the company then use all the knowledge and resources gained by employment in that company to make and sell the product themselves before the other company can.
A world that would allow this would be unattainable and unsustainable. It’s unethical, and therefore protected by both IP laws and employment contracts (company owning what employees create on company time)
@@marcogenovesi8570 Your using Charlie's brain dead strawman arguements. That isn't what their being sued for. They stole practically everything. The list of what they didn't steal was way shorter than the list of what they did steal. They took attack patterns, visuals, mechanics, systems, character designs, code, level designs, ect. It's not that they were using the same assets. It's that it's literaly the same game, outside some differences, which is obvious since they stole the game then added stuff to it after the fact. I don't get why people are taking this take that charlie made and using it non-stop when it's not even correct.
@@F34RDSoldier805 "assets" are also animations (attack patterns), whatever "visuals" are, character designs.
Mechanics can't be "owned" by copyright and unless they have a patent you can copy those.
Not sure about level designs and code. Afaik they have not demonstrated the code was stolen and I heard nothing about the level design.
I personally don't believe that multiple people can be so catastrophically retarded to just steal a whole game from a larger company and expect to not get turbosued
@@marcogenovesi8570 So this is what Charlie's biased af take does to braindead fanboys lol
*charlie: do you people just hear what you want to hear?*
*also Charlie: ignores anything he doesn’t like about the case*
hypocrisy as its finest. Same with all youtubers.
The issue is not the assets. It's their use. Literally copying everything and putting it back in the same exact position they left it when they fired themselves from Nexon. Just because I write a book, I can't just copy Harry Potter word for word after reading it, changing the name and claiming big names are trying to bully me when they sue.
The strangest part about it is in his initial video about it he openly admits he is insanely biased, but then talks about it later as if he has an objective view of the facts. The only responsible thing to do in the case where you know you are biased about something is to take a back seat and let it play out.
Yeah unfortunately he's too biased in favor of Ironmace to actually understand why Nexon actually has a case.
Idk, I feel like you misunderstood much of Kira's video. The lawsuit has nothing to do with assets. Basically, from what Kira reported, was that a group of people were working on a game at Nexon, and this game was identical to dark and darker. Some of these devs decided to leave mid way through the project, effectively killing it, and start up their own dev studio. What the lawsuit is about, is not assets, but the fact that they basically took the game nexon was making and made it themselves.
Which if true, which it seems to be as these were testimonies of devs that were on the project, means that the game is effectively dead. I'm not sure exactly if what they did is illegal, as copying an idea isn't really a crime as far as I know, but the fact that it happened like this will have made them a company no investor will trust.
Thank you. I was hoping he would catch this.
So its a skill issue and they cant let it go...
They failed their game and someone else made something similar.
So work experience is lawfully unjust now.
I just don't think he watched it
@@Ucj334esd I haven’t heard a single good thing about nexon, but it’s kind of scummy to get hired on a project, take the pay, and plan to jump ship midway through development with a huge chunk of the team to continue the project on your own.
It’d be one thing if nexon cancelled the project, and then they made their own, but the devs are the ones that caused it to fail in the first place.
@@chickenbath No one is obliged to work for a shitty company though, which is what you're arguing. We don't know enough. What if Nexon was a scummy employer? Why should those devs stay to work on a project for an employer they don't respect? They mass walked out for a reason, which I doubt was to take a huge career gamble on a half-baked game. If that killed the game it's Nexon's fault for failing to retain key staff for the project.
Edit: Also you said 'planned', how do we know any of them planned to leave when they started development? Massive assumption
Bad take from Charlie.
He’s missing the point.
You can’t copyright a tire, or a steering wheel either. But if I worked for a car company and was paid to design a car, it would be unethical for me to finish designing that car, then quit the company, and try to sell it myself. Every company has contracts in place to ensure they own everything an employee creates on company time.
Nexon is not arguing about the physical assets Ironmace used, or the genre of the game. They are arguing that they paid those developers to make that game for them. So they own it. Ironmace cannot quit and make the same game, using all knowledge and assets they learned while making the game for Nexon.
Intellectual property (IP) is a category of property that includes intangible creations of the human intellect. There are many types of intellectual property, and some countries recognize more than others. The best-known types are patents, copyrights, trademarks, and trade secrets.
Trade secrets are a type of intellectual property that includes formulas, practices, processes, designs, instruments, patterns, or compilations of information that have inherent economic value because they are not generally known or readily ascertainable by others, and which the owner takes reasonable measures to keep secret. Intellectual property law gives the owner of a trade secret the right to restrict others from disclosing it. In some jurisdictions, such secrets are referred to as confidential information
Explain in detail how game mechanics can be classed as trade secrets. Anybody that sees the game knows the game mechanics, that violates the "not generally known or readily ascertainable by others" in your own definition.
So since there were no patents, copyrights, trademarks or trade secrets involved here how does this stand
@@marcogenovesi8570 It all is already explained, my dear child. You just can't understand it with your liottle brain.
Imagine the amazing games we've missed out on because of bullshit like this
People should stop taking sides on this situation. There are clearly valid claims on Nexon’s side considering the search and the odd defense made by Iron Mace.
If Nexon does release that game the review section on steam is gonna be disturbing
Theyl never release the game they cancelled it now they just dont want ironmace to succeed. scum
@@Kelevra516 ... my dude the game had to be cancelled because the guys from ironmace quit/got fired the game (P3) was approved
Bad take from Charlie.
People need to stop taking a side without knowing the facts regardless of what you think about Nexon or Ironmace/ Dark and Darker. The circumstances lean towards Nexon being right.
The facts:
- Nexon’s P3 gaming code was leaked to the public when the Dark and Darker dev team worked there
- the Dark and Darker dev team are outspoken about how they did not like Nexon when working there, and how disappointed they were with P3 being cancelled
- Dark and Darker looks exactly like Nexon’s P3 game
- You cannot leave a company and then start working on the same idea that the company was paying you to work on. Most contracts stipulate the IP you work on or come up with while employed, on company hours, belongs to the company.
- Nexon are not taking action over the assets in game. They are taking action due to the code and IP of Dark and Darker.
This doesn’t prove Ironmace is at fault. But Nexon is within their right to go after Dark and Darker, based on these circumstances.
Just because you don’t like Nexon, and like Dark and Darker doesn’t make it right to steal or leak IP. You can’t pick and choose when to enforce ethics, based on the outcome. If people you didn’t like did what Dark and Darker did to Nexon, but to a company you loved, then you’d be siding with Nexon.
Nexon paid the Ironmace devs to make this game. Then the Ironmace devs all left Nexon, after leaking the game code, so they could use it and release it themselves. Imagine if this happened in every company that hires employees to make a product. That is the ‘trade secret’ Nexon is claiming.
I wouldn’t be surprised if they settle out of court and Nexon ends up owning Dark and Darker or at least owning a share of the profits or owning a portion of the Dark and Darker developer.
you can't copyright game mechanics, assets and game engine are third party so they can't own those either. The point here is what exactly Nexon is trying to claim they own because there isn't a whole lot they really can claim as their own IP.
Given how this game is built on a third party game engine so 99% of the heavy lifting is done by the game engine devs already, it's very conceivable that they just rewrote the higher level stuff from scratch in a relatively short time.
@@marcogenovesi8570 you can’t copyright a tire, or a steering wheel either. But if I worked for a car company and was paid to design a car, it would be unethical for me to finish designing that car, then quit the company, and try to sell it myself. Every company has contracts in place to ensure they own everything an employee creates on company time.
Intellectual property (IP) is a category of property that includes intangible creations of the human intellect. There are many types of intellectual property, and some countries recognize more than others. The best-known types are patents, copyrights, trademarks, and trade secrets.
Trade secrets are a type of intellectual property that includes formulas, practices, processes, designs, instruments, patterns, or compilations of information that have inherent economic value because they are not generally known or readily ascertainable by others, and which the owner takes reasonable measures to keep secret. Intellectual property law gives the owner of a trade secret the right to restrict others from disclosing it. In some jurisdictions, such secrets are referred to as confidential information.
@@fudalefu1 Explain in detail how game mechanics can be classed as trade secrets. Anybody that sees the game knows the game mechanics, that violates the "not generally known or readily ascertainable by others" in your own definition.
So since there were no patents, copyrights, trademarks or trade secrets involved here how does this stand
@@marcogenovesi8570 while I don’t know for sure, I doubt Nexon did not copyright P3. And seeing as how Dark and Darker is essentially the same game, designed by the same people, using the same assets, using the same design process then that copyright would be infringed upon.
And the trade secrets would be, that Ironmace is trying to sell the same exact game that they were paid by Nexon to design. It is that intangible knowledge of the design of the game, not the genre. But specificy how the game is made. They only know what because Nexon paid them to research it, and gave them resources to make it. Ironmace probably wouldn’t have been able to make the game without that knowledge and experience.
And when you take into consideration that P3 code was leaked while Ironmace devs worked at Nexon and were disgruntled by the game being canceled. And the fact that a former Nexon, now Ironmace developer was caught accessing the p3 files from his own private network without permission from Nexon, it all points to ironmace stealing the game rather than re-making it, not that re-making it isn’t in itself unethical, as it pertains to IP laws.
@@fudalefu1 you can't copyright game mechanics, assets and game engine are third party so they can't own those either.
You still have not explained how game mechanics can be classed as "trade secrets" when they are clearly NOT a secret.
The other fluff you try to claim as "intangibles" is worker experience, another thing they can't own
If someone stole files and stuff it's a different case between him and Nexion, as long as the game does not have any of that stolen code it can be published
How can a company that made MapleStory which is so lighthearted be so evil 💀
You should see what they've done to Maplestory (at least the regular servers)
passionate developers are often fucked over by the higher ups sadly
money
fun fact: maplestory mines crypto in the background
because maplestory is dying and they're desperate to get money from anywhere
It's very likely intellectual property theft.
"no one's seen P3"
Google screenshots of P3 and see P3.
"copyrighting a genre"
Actually, it kind of looks like the same game.
"different interpretation of Kira's video"
Kira's video reveals that like half of the Nexon's P3 dev. team left to make IRONMACE/Dark and Darker. The lead designer of D&D stored filed/assets for P3 on a personal server, first with Nexon's permission (cov19 exemption), then w/o permission and expressly against the direction of the company.
There's a few more caveats, but I digress. I'm with Charlie. Nexon blows and I hope they lose. However, it's hard to look at the information that's come out so far and make the leap from "disgruntled employee leaves company w/ a game concept, half of the dev. staff & all of the tools to build it" to "decides to make something new, but similar and is now the subject of a frivolous lawsuit."
They look the same because the artist is the same. No one has seen what P3 actually played like. Also the devs can leave and work for another company if they want to. Nexon is probably a shitty dev to work for, there is a reason half a team left and I doubt it's to take a gamble on a half-baked game.
@@Neil-qg9cw watch kiras video and youll see why "half the dev team" quit..
they are shitty but it doesnt mean because a company might be shitty u can break as many contractual agreements as u like.
Man too bad these fanboy monkeys will not this well laid out comment lmao.
@@only4hwyes you can work for another company but you cannot take the properties of the company. Also you have to abide by contract you signed or you will be sued.
I played dark and darker before all this bullshit happened and it was a incredible game. Ofc though anything good gets taken away due to greed.
I mean what is Nexon gaining from this lawsuit tho
They stole code and Nexons project. So I guess Iron mace was a bit greedy, but feel there’s more than greed going on.
@@OrangeSC2 they want to shut it down because they've seen Thier cancelled project is a hit. So they just copy The formula of dark and darker. Release it and try to reap The rewards
@reapercometh Nexon cancelled the project due to all or most core developers left so there is no continuing the project... so if they gonna make dnd style game, they are going to make it from the scratch... I really dont think Nexon is going to spend tons of legal fee for this.. I can see this happening in personal level, but for a company, it just doesn't make sense to waste like this. What stops other companies from using the same formula while Nexon is wasting their time on this?
@@OrangeSC2 they've seen it's now a proven wanted commodity. Why would you not reboot it and just steal the work they did if you win The lawsuit.
They are making a game of the same genre, same "subgenre" with the extraction thing, with the same unreal assets just after working on Nexon's P3. Nexon may be a shit company but that doesn't mean it's ok, I don't think you have to be a dev to realize that it seems REALLY fucking weird.
And I don't know what the point is by pointing at Dota and League. Yes, it was a pretty similar case. What exactly is the point in that argument? It sounds exactly as when as a kid I said I shouldn't be punished because others did X thing too.
I loved my time in Dark and Darker and I wish it was different. But fanboys and internet warriors parroting unhelpful emotional reactions doesnt change the evidence that is extremely damning to the people who founded ironmace. Criminal and internal investigations were already being done on one of the main people heading the game before he left nexon. 10 months later they miraculously have one of the most successful early access games ever? that coworkers in nexon are saying looks identical to what they were working on prior to cancellation? I just dont buy it. Even being anti-corporation/nexon, working internally to get a project cancelled affects real people a those companies not just the big wigs
Wasnt P3 not released because the dev team left nexon?
The director qbqndoned his teammates to make his own game with the money that nexon gave for him to develop lmao
Does Charlie actually know the detailes of this caee or is it just him hating on Nexon?
problem with this here is the people who "worked" at nexon and are currently at ironmace those people most likely signed at non compete or something while they worked at nexon, this is very common in the tech industry and even some ex head game dev's are put on "cool down" since in some of there contracts they cant work on a game for 5 years after working for said company which is wild
That should be 100% illegal.
What a shitshow the tech industry is.
But that’s not in the suit, the suit is for stolen assets and trade secrets. As far as I know, the separate suit for the guy doesn’t have that as a notion either. It’s just nexon being vague.
@@zappiestlynx9567 it might not be in the suit BUT they can and probably will bring it up since trade secrets as a definition "a secret device or technique used by a company in manufacturing its products." so they will use they stole our "technique" aka trade secrets with the ex-nexon employees you have currently have employed at ironmace, and they could use this just to waste time to bleed them for money sadly ;/ i wish ironmace the best
@@zappiestlynx9567 its not check kiras video
@@zappiestlynx9567 It's actually done in both sides. That was why IM studio was raided by Korea Police Agency.
I'm not touching anything from Nexon ever.
Boycotting is fun as fuck my boi
People touched it to begin with? Like I have never heard of them nor have I heard of their games because they are all sad kid games that take no development skill a stupid racing game that looks like Disney infinity and highlanders mixed together with cars 😂
Not like youre missing much either tbh
I stopped touching their games long before D&D.
@@boinggerss1560 uh.... Blue archive and Dave the diver are under nexon KR lmao, nexon KR and global are different entity.
Try to look at both games popularity Dave the diver on steam while blue archive is on RUclips, nexon KR IS actually decent publisher.
Nexon kr/jp are actually one of those well respected publishers out there.
This seems like a company just going after little guys but if you look into it deeper there was a lot of wrong doings before Nexon even got the legal system involved.
@@JustBuyTheWaywardsRealms OO OO AH AH (agreed)
“They used their acquired experience in Nexon to build the game so they stole it”
That’s literally what a job is. Unemployed people shouldn’t opine here.
imagine gordon ramsey getting sued by the resturant he first worked at because he learned how to cook there
@@iztunkiztunk6855 No, but if they learn how to make one of Gordan's dishes, then they leave the job to start their own restuarant and then sell that dish there, then THAT IS ILLEGAL.... THIS IS LITERALLY WHAT IRONMACE DID. Whys is this sooooo hard to understaaaaaand.
@@iztunkiztunk6855 if he stole the recipe and ran with it, you would be fcking sued to death by Ramsey. do you not have common sense?
@@F34RDSoldier805 No it isn't. You can't copyright ingredients for a recipe 😂 Anyone can legally make any meal they want in any restaurant, whether they worked for another chef or not (otherwise the entire industry would be suing each other.)
Now, if Gordon Ramsey wrote his recipe down in a book and someone else then copied it exactly for their own book that would be illegal! However, someone else could take all the same ingredients and write the recipe essentially the same way but in a slightly different style and it would also still be legal. Only the way it is written and specific methods of cooking would be protected, which would take 5 seconds to alter on basically any recipe ever made.
Absolutely awful analogy.
@@Neil-qg9cw Believe it or not food and games are different things with different laws surrounding them.
I just don’t understand the not having the money to fight it. It should take one maybe two court appearances to prove these accusations false and then force Nexon to cover legal fees. There is no way there’s not a lawyer who would take this on.
Tbh that statement they made about not being able to fight it makes me think they did do something wrong and are hiding it by not going to court. They COULD fight this.
There are a LOT of billable hours before you get to court.
@@HzizsVynryn i understand this, I’ve studied law quite a lot for life purposes so I don’t know too much about corporate or Korean law, but there are lawyers who take on cases for more than just monetary gain, and once they win on account of their evidence you make the other side pay for legal fees and damages like them having to take dark and darker off the shop and what not. Tbh they could get a half decent lawyer to present their facts since it’s so easy to prove they didn’t steal it.
@@-Mintyy Apparently not, dude stole code and did a bunch of other illegal shit. Criminal case is ongoing in Korea. They are absolutely fucked. Use your PACER account and go grab the docket to read it for yourself.
With the original Dark and Darker up in the air at the moment, I can wager at least a hundred other clones of DaD with almost the same mechanics and assets will show up on the Steam storefront within a year or so before the case is even settled. Whether any of those clones will have the same quality will remain to be seen.
Who cares? You guys just want the game right? I thought the fanboys did not care about stealing assets and similar games being made right? So why worry D:
@@JustBuyTheWaywardsRealms yeah I know. I am being ironic haha
@@yrh3nfnfj-vb9vc either way I feel like it’s about principle. Obviously law matters in society but in reality most people just want ironmace to win because they have actual passion and care for their game
@@JustBuyTheWaywardsRealms prove it
Its clear Charlie has no idea about the situation other than he wants ironmace to win regardless of the facts. He did say it's okay to steal from nexon sooooo we know he's not impartial to this.
Evidence?
@@MA5TERLINK His video titled "This company is awful" at around 7 minutes.
Did Charlie invest in Ironmace or what?
Yep prob 50% shares
I'm surprised to hear him say he watched Kira's video and he is still talking about assets. That was a huge misunderstanding that you should now know about after watching Kira's video. This isn't about whether assets were stolen or not. It's about south korea's non-compete laws and breach of employee contract. I'm guessing mc probably watched maybe 2 minutes of Kira's video and just kind of skimmed through it lightly without actually watching and understanding it.
Charlies gets this way when he’s emotionally involved. It’s clear at this point that the individual assets aren’t the issue. Ironmace has been solely focusing on debunking the assets claim because they know that’s a slam dunk defense. They haven’t, however, made any real statements in defense of the use of trade secrets and whether P3 was a nearly identical game. Ironmace should’ve let nexon reabsorb them once they proved the game’s success on their own. That was really the only way the game was going to get made legally.
@afoulbeast7256It was going to get published under Mintrocket so your claims are nothing but trash
@@incizer4419that is not possible anymore because Nexon even asked IM to collaborate after they have been betrayed.
IANAL
While this is in Korea, it's worth noting that US copyright law is primarily concerned with people recreating things in a nontransformative "fair use" fashion. This can get dicey in situations like Darker and Darker's who allegedly have a non-trivial amount of people who worked on Nexon's P3 game, including the primary lead manager person who's specifically getting singled out. If Kira's reporting on the matter is true, there's a good case that the manager left Nexon after getting angry at how the project was handled left and created a very similar game to the P3.
Nexon could not go after just anyone for making a game similar to P3 ("copyrighting a genre"), they have to prove that that person / people had insider knowledge and/or access to the work / assets / etc. (Intellectual Property) that Nexon has legal rights to, such as is the case with the former employee. If the games are as similar as they are being reported as, it's _more than likely_ that the team created the game in a rather nontransformative way. In US civil law, more than likely is all you need to win. As far as any copyright claims go, that's what Nexon will have to prove, that it would have been unreasonable for Darker and Darker's team to create specifically what they have if it wasn't for their work on P3.
We should also understand that copyright is less concerned about the output, and more concerned about how that output came to be. To people can create the exact same thing and both have (copy)rights to that thing. It's only if one created their's with knowledge of the other that they have infringed on the rights of someone else. This is applicable to the idea of "you can't copyrigh a genre" because if Nexon and other corps can't go after games just because those games are similar to ones they never released. They'd have to prove that the creator of those games used essentially forbidden knowledge in a way that infringes on the rights of the owner.
"A group of former employees left the company to work on a game that is very similar in many important aspects to the specific project that they were working on for the company." Sounds like a really compelling case for Darker and Darker infringing on the rights of Nexon. It's not slam dunk, but it's sounding like the project manager didn't do a great job at distinguishing the new title from the prior P3. But only he and Nexon know the full extent of that.
Wtf are you talking about....? They're both Korean companies, why are you brining up USA laws? Shit works different everywhere
It's a bit messy though because creativity inherently involves learning from your own work. Those devs learned things making P3 that they can't unlearn. Are they supposed to never use those building other games? Very slippery slope. The games look similar because they have the same art designer and artistic style is personal. Could they have done more to differentiate it? Yes, probably. Just seems like quite a slippery slope to claim worked experience or an individuals art style as a trade secret, no? Nothing in the game is something (secret) that another person couldn't code without ever working for Nexon. I'd agree with your point if these individuals learned things from Nexon employees specifically while working on P3 and just reproduced Nexon's work, but it sounds more like they got experience through their own work for Nexon over numerous games and then reused things in their own work. That isn't copyright infringement. Reusing your experience (including work for companies) exists in every creative industry.
@@Neil-qg9cw well taking inspiration from your own work doesn't work that well when you signed a contract specifying all your work belongs to them. Add to that non competition agreements, and you won't get far before being sued for "copying your own work"(which rights you have signed away).
Do they even make game? Weren't they some korean Beggers changing their nationality for money?
@@Neil-qg9cw reusing your experience is fine, but recreating is not. if IM uses different assets, there are no case at all.
Never played D&D and I hate Nexon but it sounds like a good game is getting ruined by its lead developer's ego, stupidity and greed combined big megacorpo greed and pettiness.
Even after the director got fired, Nexon still asked IM to collaborate but IM refused since they wanted all the money with thier ego thinking its their game
Fact here is that people don't want to listen. Because the situation is a big company vs small company, they will go with the small company because they are always the good guys but in this situation they are not. Nexon is not a good company but they are literally doing this because it's their right and those at ironmace broke their contract. It would be like you making a boat and you hired 2 guys to build your boat, you pay for materials and worker fee then these 2 guys left, recreated the exact same boat and say it's their boat and not yours.
No, it would be like you pay 2 guys to make you a boat, halfway through making the boat they tell you that they don't like your ideas for the boat and want to do a different design, you say no so they stop building the boat and you stop paying them, then 2 guys go and build the boat that they wanted to build, you get mad because you can't build your boat so you tell the police the 2 guys stole your boat, the police compound it and the 2 guys can't afford to fight to get their boat back that they built with their own hands 😂
Terrible analogy.
@@Neil-qg9cwey monkey you can defense all day but you will still not get your DnD back made by thiefs.
@@Neil-qg9cw i mean the analogy was horrible but you got the point. They stole something that they did not own so they will be fkd
Ah okay, Charlie is behind a bit with the kickstarter info. Also Asmon pointed out very valid arguments Nexon could take to court. Its up to Ironmace to properly establish why they left before crafting the game because it could be considered sabotage as the team themselves on the game left. Then this kickstarter debacle can be used to argue that the passionate team member is emotionally charged and could have leaked code. There’s just a lot more arguments involved now that more clarity is out. I won’t say Nexon is in any right yet but case wise its not looking good with how the court will perceive it. I hope Ironmace can get a strong lawyer so there’s a clear cut defense.
Ik you’re not a lawyer but is there any precedence for a team being found guilty of sabotaging for leaving a game company to pursue a different direction than their current company allowed for?
I’m also not being a jerk I’m super curious to read on it and it’s kinda niche to google.
@@joelmcknight9995 I'm not sure about game companies, but there have been innumerable cases where a corporation has won a corporate sabotage case against former employees who leave and either 1) join a different company or 2) form their own company. That's why, if you leave a company where you have access to trade secrets, you'd be subject to a non-compete clause and the law.
Also, this is much worse. P3 and DaD are the same game according to Nexon insiders. The disagreement seems to be that Mr. A (the person who got fired by Nexon after leaking P3's source code and stealing company assets via a private server) wanted his own brand and name on P3 but Nexon was taking too long. He was able to convince half of P3's dev team to leave when he was fired, even though the workers' union didn't protect him. He then forms his own brand, Ironmace. South Koreans seem to be firmly in support of Nexon because the notion is that Nexon had intended P3 to not be pay-to-win, subsidized by their pay-to-win titles and that it was meant to build good will with the community. By screwing Nexon over and selling out to Tencent/Kakao, Ironmace is spitting on Nexon's gesture and bring a hypocrite.
@@joelmcknight9995 The point is that it's not only not a different direction, but the same game. Charlie didn't give or doesn't have all the info in this case.
@@F34RDSoldier805 Of course its the same, THE SAME PERSON came up with the idea. He was the team leader and the one with the idea for P3.
@@crimsondragon627 that idea belongs to nexon since he presented it as an employee and nexon fully funded it. Or should I say he was paid by nexon to come up with the idea to be presented to them
Charlie just went all oonga boonga with the 'Nexon bad' narrative that he doesn't seem to care if the small fry actually did some wrongdoings
Cuz nexon reputation has been proven bad and toxic. Just like how people sucking CDPR before the 2077
It's interesting to see Charlie & Asmon's differing views on this whole situation.
I love asmon but i hate hit takes its legit "yeah i bet they did steal code" and then he never looked at the defence, idk how he skipped over the best thing helping iron maces cass. Asmon thinks anybody who is on iron maces side is only there because they like the game, not based on facts
It's because Charlie acts more emotional about debates and at the end of the day asmon is the more level headed guy that used to work at the IRS. Whenever Charlie "loses" an debate he resorts to ad hominem attacks and tries to rizz himself out of the argument. Doesn't make him a bad guy, but him sticking up for ironmace just because he's addicted to a video game he likes doesn't change how the law and culture works in Korea.
It's also worth mentioning that ironmace LOVES self-snitching on themselves. They should have kept their mouths shut instead of talking about this private server or talked about they were rebeling against big companies. If they were smart they would have released this game earlier to make some money out of it before legal attack landed. Instead they kept teasing the players with too many playtests.
@@marloncebo242 bro 99% of what you just said is complete gibberish
@@just_dont_do_it2883you’re straw manning his takes by quite a bit😅
@@marloncebo242 asmon a level headed Guy? Really?
It's funny how biased Charlie is for no reason. The fact of the matter is that a judge had enough evidence to warrant a raid on ironmace. It isn't assets, it's the fact that it's practically the same game. It's not just a genre, the torches are the same, the attack animations are the same, the weapons are framed in the exact same way on screen as p3. It's a shame because it was a great game. The whole "big corporation bad" argument means nothing.
The torches are the same? You are delusional
Most of Dark and Darker's assets are bought from the unreal store. Of course they're similar P2 used unreal assets too.
Rather ironmace may be criminals and nexon is defending their property. Hopefully we will find out soon.
property? you mean the public UE store assets?
@@VelvetAura ah. You think this is a purely asset lawsuit. It's not. You have a fundamental misunderstanding. Watch the video kira made.
But no, I mean their intellectual property.
What intellectual property
Don’t tell people about the existence of stuff like Back 4 Blood and Callisto Protocol cause those should also be taken down by the Nexon logic
Callisto doesn't play remotely like Dead Space nor does it retain the core mechanic of limbs severing as the main way to kill enemies outside of the tentacles to stop mutations. And it doesn't look like it either.
Big company bad is where most of you guya' thoughts end but think a bit more
@@stovetopism this seems like a slippery slope argument fr fr. You’re saying the mechanic isn’t close enough so it’s okay? Man, most games are variations of press A. It’s not THAT deep, copyrighting entire mechanics sounds batshit insane.
@@joelmcknight9995 The point to all this is they signed a contract with Nexon not to do that but they did it. They trusted the guy that made dark and darker with developer stuff and agreed to never use it when he leaves but he did and that's the problem
I worked for a trucking company for 15 years. After I left my job as a trucker, I couldn't ever work as a trucker again because I held trade trucking secrets and any new job involving trucking would be ripping off my old job. Kinda sucks, but apparently that's job things work.
I guess it depends on the country you're in, but in most western nations that allow non-competes the company has to pay your salary while your non-compete is active. I'd look into it bro
trucking secrets? wtf were you transporting?
@derk the bert I'm kidding. My job before that I learned bakery secrets. Secret muffins only our bakery knew how to make. Patent pending trade-marked blueberries. Very secret stuff.
@@hranko3143 you can't just say something like "trucking secrets" then treat me like i am a idiot because i questioned what a trucking secret could even be.
@derk the bert hahaha I wasn't treating you like an idiot, sorry. Just messing around.
Nexon is the single most generic "evil corporation" name I think I'll ever hear, didnt think it was real at first
it's also close enough to Exxon which is another evil corpo
Korean law is different from us laws, in Korean standards they are probably in the wrong and it could MAYBE be proven in Korea but in the US it would probably be outright impossible to prove such a thing
Bad take from Charlie.
Charlie is so blinded by his hate for Nexon and love for Dark and darker to see this logically. The circumstances really point towards Ironmace acting unethical.
- Nexon paid Ironmace devs to make a game(P3), while they were employed by Nexon.
- Nexon cancels P3 .
- someone leaks the code for P3 while the Ironmace devs were still employed by Nexon
- Ironmace are disgruntled employees who are outspoken of how upset they were to see P3 get canceled
- a former Nexon employee and Ironmace developer was caught accessing the P3 code on his own private server.
- Ironmace uses all assets that were used in P3
The ‘trade secrets’ Nexon is referring to is not the physical assets from unreal, or the genre of fantasy or extraction battle royal. It’s the fact that Nexon paid these former employees to make a game. So they own that game. It’s unethical for employees to be paid to work on a game, then quit, and release that same game themselves.
you can't copyright game mechanics, assets and game engine are third party so they can't own those either. The point here is what exactly Nexon is trying to claim they own because there isn't a whole lot they really can claim as their own IP.
Given how this game is built on a third party game engine so 99% of the heavy lifting is done by the game engine devs already, it's very conceivable that they just rewrote the higher level stuff from scratch in a relatively short time.
@@marcogenovesi8570 To be clear, Nexon were releasing P3. The lead dev wanted it to be only his. That is why he took the server full of nexon property and left.
And that is just untrue. If you leave a company and produce the same product that you made/developed using that companies money. You are stealing. Plain and simple.
@@Destroyahx2 you can't copyright game mechanics, assets and game engine are third party so they can't own those either. What "server full of nexion property" are we talking about
@Marco Genovesi But the game can be copyrighted. Nexon and its employees say the game is literally the same as P3. Which if it is true, is stealing. The lead dev for P3 had a private server full of the code of both Nexon projects he worked on for them. He was supposed to delete it and is facing criminal charges in South Korea from Nexon because of the IP theft. That was why he got fired. Some of the P3 team left, and they started Ironmace.
@Marco Genovesi Also, there have been attorneys have said that the case against Ironmouse is very good. From what all the leaked information about the lawsuit shows at least.
I love Charlie but I think he is wrong on this one. He seems to think that IronMace created a different game in the same genre. But Nexon is claiming that it is the exact same game just rebuilt from scratch. Kira's video does a much better job explaining it than I can. What's weird to me is that Charlie says he watched it yet makes claims that the video clearly disputes.
For example at 6:35 he doesn't understand the assets are being used as evidence that IronMace created the exact game not that they stole those assets.
You can buy the same assets right now from unreal and make the same game, they don't own the assets and they don't own the genre or mechanics, many games in the same genre as each other use the exact mechanics, fps games comes to mind, u can copyright characters, specific assets you made, but not too much else, u can even have the same story, marvel and DC stories read like copied homework
@@klol3369 You or I could do that sure. But the issue arises because IronMace were employees of Nexon who were paying them to make the game.
@@tommylee7324 yes but if they left, and left all their code with nexxon all they're "stealing" is the generic idea and mechanics which isn't copyrightable
@@klol3369 but that's the problem. They didn't leave things in Nexon. One of the creators were accessing files about P3 to make the game. That would be like working in Apple where you made the next Iphone then left Apple, then started your own phone brand and sell it. That's illegal. Its as basic as copying someone elses homework and saying it's yours and you did it yourself without the help of anyone
I don't understand legal systems, how is it fair that someone or a small company can't defend themselves if the opposition just throws enough money at it?
Better lawyers with more resources cost more than okay lawyers with less resources. Also more money means you can draw out a lawsuit for a longer time, burning the money of the little guy until they have to concede. Our legal systems are far from perfect...
That's the point, it's not supposed to be fair
If you think the legal system is fair I envy your positive outlook on the world.
US courts are different than many other countries; we are responsible for our own legal expenses. In -some- cases you can counter sue for lawyer fees etc but not all.
life is not fair, legal systems aren't either
Charlie is really bias to all this, which I understand, but even the Nexon employees who worked with the employees that left to make Dark and Darker is calling them out on it. They literally copied the work. Employees from Ironmace took ideas that employees at Nexon came up with and put it into their game. That is literally a break of contract in most tech companies, which all employees signed. The argument Nexon made isn't that the assets were stolen, but the same assets are being used in the same way. As well as systems, visuals, attack patterns, etc. They literally said it would be easier to list the things that weren't copied because there was so much that were. This isn't an argument about genre, it's literally copying work. Idk if Charlie is being intentionally dishonest, but with all the information that we have right now, it's the Dark and Darker devs that are looking more and more in the wrong. I don't think Charlie is looking at all the information that is out there in this situation. Even Korean gamers, who hate nexon, are siding with Nexon. You can say that you don't care if they stole the game from Nexon, but that doesn't mean they're in the right. Imagine if every dev working in big companies can just work in that company, learn a ton of shit and then take everything they made there and using it to make the same game on their own. Workers sign contracts saying they won't take work done for their company for this exact reason. As of right now, with everything out at the moment, Ironmace looks like they are the most in the wrong. People like Charlie just want a Robbinhood situation to happen with this game whther their in the wrong or not. And I also hate seeing Nexon on any game I am interested in, but I'm not going to make shit up just because I hate them.
Can't believe how misinformed charlie is on the issue, the legal case wasn't even made against stolen assets and IP infringement on genre, Nexon claim was on a non compete clause, P3 have a dev team of 20 people with Ironmace dev as the ex lead of the team, the whole reason why P3 was scrapped and cancelled wasn't even because Nexon have no intention of continuing the game but because IronMace founder ex lead of P3 took 9 of the 20 man team and left Nexon while the project is still in development then used similar assets they used before in Nexon when developing P3 and rebuild the same game shortly after leaving Nexon. After only 6 month after the departure Ironmace annouce dark and darker, and according to the ex P3 staff the similarity of both games are not just of a similar genre type similarity, it was more of a Alpha version game VS beta version game. Whoever is supporting Ironmace is delusional and blind on hatred on Nexon. If Nexon lose this case this will set a precedence for all game development not just for Nexon that its is okay for a dev team to poach staff and left the company 90 percent into the finishing of a game. Ironmace even use resources stole from the company in own private server to rebuild the game. Imagine games like Elden Ring 90 percent to completion some team lead suddenly poach half of the team and start a game called Elden Bing then because of the departure of over 50 percent of original team, Elden Ring got to be cancelled this mayt sounds insane but this lawsuits if Ironmace won that is what it is setting the precedence on. FYI teh list of thousands of assets was brought up in the legal case was not to prove that Ironmace stole the assets as they were available in the store, it was to build a case for the massive similarity in both games P3 VS Dark and Darker, there is zero chance Ironmace is going to wiggle their way out saying both games are very different as they there are too many similar assets used that are found both in P3 and Dark and Darker.
I’ve seen nothing about a non compete clause, but I did find that nexon’s claim was copyright infringement & trade secrets which dosent hold water. Some sources too prove your point would be helpful for those who aren’t adept at finding the information. Otherwise you’re just as guilty as charlie for misinformation.
@Brad DeAngelis Thanks. At this point I'm staying away from this case and waiting for the results, because there's nothing but bullshit flying everywhere.
@@Bradmagus trade secret is part of non-compete
sudden attack = the cs of asia, its why asia doesnt play cs they play sudden attack or crossfire. Thats before OW, Apex, and Valorant came
I don't really have a horse in this race cuz I don't care about nexon or give a damn about whatever multiplayer thing dark and darker is but I disagree with you Charlie, I think you are biased by your hatred of Nexon. You said it yourself, they were building a game at nexon and then left and then built the outside of nexon. Regardless of it p3 was ever going to be released, if they were working on a game like that at the company and then turn around and make the game on their own then that's where the problem lies.
Store-bought assets or not the screenshots and dark and darker look almost identical to me. Just because using the same assets is not mean the game has to look like a carbon copy. If you work for any place that involves creation, anything you worked on there is that company's property especially if they had a non-compete clause. Do I think Nexon is im petty territory? Yes I do and obviously knew they wouldn't be able to fight back.
What Nexon should do is released footage and the build of p3. That would be the best way to quash the whole thing. Same genre defence or not, it shouldn't be 1 to 1
maybe he is it really doesn't make his points any less valid it doesn't really matter if the game idea spawned from working at nexon. the idea of a generic medieval fantasy or battle royal isn't ideas that nexon owns both are well established genres that are completely up for grabs for anyone to use.
Screenshots tell you nothing. The art style is similar cause they share artists and an art designer. Is the art desinger supposed to radically change his style? He is hired for his style. That's his own IP. P3 had a story and DaD doesn't, which indicates they are different. The onus should be on Nexon to prove P3 is the same, because only they can do so. Keeping it vague and relying on screenshots, reusable assets Nexon doesn't own, and an art style Nexon doesn't own are weak arguments. The only reasonable claims they have are against employees breaking contracts or leaking company data, which have nothing to do with DaD. Ofc this could change if Nexon provides proof, but the little they have is very vague and doesn't prove what they are claiming.
remember when pubg tried to sue fortnite for battle royal.
Sadly with new evidence looks like darker and darker is fucked sad day boys but idk how they even thought they would get away with it.
What evidence is that? the one where a employee who's stressed jumped the gun on making a kickstarter that the team had discussed it as a back up plan? and this was all confirmed by another mod in their discord.
@@crimsondragon627 oh no I mean that’s obviously a bad look but it’s to much to put in a message Kira made a good video wrapping it all up I read everything myself to make sure I was just taking his opinion and yea sadly seems like “Mr A” the ex manager of p3 left and took multiple employees causing p3 to go on hold and used the same idea the same unreal store items and he had previously tried to leave multiple times. I get the whole can’t copyright a genre but let’s be honest you can’t work for a company make 70% of a game leave make a almost identical game using the same assets and say it’s fair. Everyone would do it.
@@crimsondragon627 he basically on his second play through and we all know how fast and much easier a second play through is.
Well next time I work at the factory I'm gonna copy all their products and start remaking them identical, with same specification and just changing the name, exactly after firing myself, then claiming big bad corpo is bullying me for building the same thing.
Wow you are really good at interpreting
@@LinkaroStrife Hopefully your blessing and fanning public outrage will allow me to bend the laws. Gotta see where the lawsuit goes with Ironmace, and if the case of stealing is applicable
@@LinkaroStrife nah barely remember the reinforced hose factory I used to work at. I can barely remember the production process and specifications after 2 years unemployed. Can still reload the steel braiding machine eyes closed though.
Usually I respect Charlies opinions but after this honestly I'm going to go elsewhere for my news about current events.
The main problem isn't that they made the game using similar assets and core ideas, the problem is that they worked AT the company that was in production of P3, left the company to make their own game, and them leaving was the reason why P3 was never finished. P3 even got the greenlight from the higherups but the main director decided to leave and the entire P3 team were fucked unless they left Nexon to join him to make DaD.
People really let themselves be blinded by their love of a game and their hate of a company. I get it, I would have loved to play dark and darker and I would love it if Nexon disappeared, that doesn't mean it's ok to stand this type of shit.
The reason why P3 was never finished is because nexon didn't put more people on it. That's it. If nexon had valued the project they would have just replaced the 10 or so people and kept on working on it. They didn't. That's all there is to it.
@@moiseman 10 people leaving wasn't the cause for development to stop, the director leaving was. Everyone else on the team was clueless on how to direct the game anymore, which ended up in 10 or so people following the director to finish the game. Anyone else coming in as a director would have pretty drastically changed what the game would end up being, which is really a coin flip for Nexon because they had already greenlit the project. It's also not ethical (or legal) to receive funding from a company for a game, leave the company right after the game gets greenlit and make your own company to make the same game from scratch (and get a bigger cut), while the original company didn't get to finish it because you left. It's not about "how many devs left", it's about "what role did those devs fulfill". It's pretty clear that you only think this way because it's Nexon, I could guarantee you if something like this happened to FromSoft or an indie company, everyone would be on their side because it's scummy and I don't know how people fail to realise that.
@@TetsuShirenai Silly take, you don't work on a projet for a year without knowing what the game is supposed to be.
@@moiseman Dude, they themselves have said it, it's not my take or my understanding of the situation, please read more than one side of a story before believing it. Some of the people still working at Nexon who were working on the P3 project have made these statements. Kira has a video on their statements he got from going to Korean social media and translating it. You need direction to keep improving the game rather than just keep doing the same thing the old director did for a year. According to them, everything, from how the doors open, to how the chests open, to how the UI looks, is the exact same as what P3 was like.
We get it dude. You really liked the game and you're salty.
And I am very glad these fanboys are crying because they cannot get what they want. Bunch of 3 year olds
There seem to be a misunderstanding if i work for a company and make lest say a game website the company owns the code of that website however the company cant prohibit me to make another gaming website if i dont use the original code i could even make a website that looks super similar and still get in no trouble, is the same with a game, even if it looks similar if the code is not the same they are in the clear.
Nexon also made Blue Archive... That gacha game where almost every character is canonically under the age of 18 and you can have intimate scenes with all of them. They sexualize children in their games and make it a selling point. Evil is an understatement.
Omg that's so disgusting!
"Knowing what assets to get" is called Industry Experience.
This guy is deluded just because he wants to play a game.
The more I listen to him the more I realize he has 0 idea what he is talking about.
I feel like Nexon’s rep will forever be tarnished no matter who wins
To some, sure. But to Nexon's common Maplestory player who is already so sucked in that they're even accepting of the new Maplestory NFT game, they won't care. Most of them won't even hear about it. It's really shit.
big corpos don't care. See Nintendo and their assault lawyer platoons harassing fans. Everybody still loves Nintendo
Well here in Korea Nexon is already at bottom,hated vastly by gaming community even to the people who play their games. Funny thing is that in this case, Nexon is actually getting support from korean gamers.(even surprising because two weeks ago some big shit came up at their game ‘maple story’ and people were bashing Nexon super hard)
Maybe to the western audience Nexon’s name might be tarnished, but in Korea it will not have much effect. Maybe even get some sympathy points.
In the west? Yes. In Korea? Yes initially.... not so much anymore once more and more of the info surfaces.
@@안토니오-i8v they are actually decent atm, blue archive definitely made and managed with a lot care.
How does trade secrets not hold any water? Again I’m a guy who considers D&D the best game I’ve ever played. They didn’t just made a game of the same genre. From what we can tell, they remade the same game. The individual assets don’t matter. It’s the combination and application of assets that yielded a *seemingly* identical game. Since we’ve only seen screenshots, It’s possible that the games aren’t the same. But they likely are and only time will tell. And since IronMace can’t afford to fight them, we may never know just how similar they are. If they did leave nexon to make a copy then that does violate the noncompete and they used secrets that made D&D possible. I get where Charlie’s head is. He’s emotionally involved and it’s hard to be realistic
twitch chat try so hard to be contrarions to literally everything so cringe
One of the problem people use as example with "you can't copyright genre" is that yes if its two independent company there's not any problem. For example, EA and Activision looks at PUBG and both making a battle royale is fine. Even Epic looking at PUBG and putting it in their game is fine because its made based on public information. However, the problem is that details of P3 was not a public information and the developers worked at the company and took non public information and decided to make their own game. Yes there is over arching genre design but there are specific such as how the internal tools are developed and the drop tables, more specific game logic, game design documents etc. For anyone that thinks Ironmace is in no wrong, that means that they are admitting that corporate espionage is not wrong and should be legal. If you think corporate espionage should be legal or you don't care, then there's no point arguing further.
Think about it this way. If company A sends an employee to Company B, figures out all of the internal projects, then leaves the company B and that employee hands over all of the ideas and project details of Company B to Company A. Company A takes those ideas and sends email to all the employees at Company B on a specific project and tells them to bring all the ideas with them to Company A and they convince them by giving additional salaries. Company B is forced to cancel its project because of the employees leaving and Company A successful launches product off of the stolen ideas of Company B. This is what's happened here if all of the internal information are correct. Now if any party is lying than this case falls apart so someone is lying at this point or only telling a portion of the story.
The problem is people are looking at this from the perspective of copyright but I look at this as a form of a corporate spying involving an insider and yes in addition to the Nexon's lawsuit against Ironmace there are also ongoing criminal case against the person at fault. This case entirely hinges on the fact that Ironmace team used to be internally at Nexon making the same game that they are making now. This by definition is corporate spying. He worked internally at nexon, took the project information, left the company and created a for profit organization and made the exact same game. Again the big important thing here is that he is an insider. If he wasn't an insider and he simply saw P3 public information and took the idea of PVPVE(EFT etc) in medieval setting and made Darker and Darker it would be fine(which is how most people are understanding it)
Like how WoW was built from the idea/mechanics of Everquest.
The person that made this post actually jumped the gun, it was a good willed thing but Ironmace isn't close to this stage yet and they've closed the dono link
I cannot believe people WANT to back a company shoehorning NFTs into their next game. Everything else aside how is that not a massive red flag?
Man, the implications here is downright scary. Nexon is clearly bullying this guy, so like no matter what game this guy makes, Nexon will be there "Oh no no, that's copyright". They wont need to care about being right, cuz they have the money to win being wrong.
Wow Charlie knows nothing about this case so clueless...
Listen, I love Charlie, but he is blinded by his hate for Nexon and love of D&D. Just because the assets are apart of the unreal store doesn't make it right to use the exact same ones as P3. That's like his only argument for why Ironmace has a solid case but it's just not true at all. In reality, a ton of their points can be disproven if what Nexon claims in their lawsuit is true. The police raid is also pretty damning because unlike what Ironmace said about how they were only there for a little and found nothing, they were apparently there for several hours and never published what they may or may have not found. I ended up watching the rest of the Devin Nash video because I was intrigued and didn't want to watch wild hearts, and I wish Charlie had as well. He explains it very well for anybody that is confused and just being spoonfed the same narrative that's been going on for the past week. Hope D&D pulls through though even if the chances are slim at best
Sorry what? How is "not right" using the same third party assets in another game? That's the entire point of third party assets, that many different games can buy and use them. It's the same as stock photos and nobody in their right mind can claim you can't use the same stock photos as long as you paid the commercial use license to the third party stock photo site. They don't own them, the third party that sold them to both owns them, you both got a non-exclusive license to use them in your products.
@@marcogenovesi8570 If he took the files straight from Nexon, to his private server, depending on who owns the license to use and commercialize those Unreal store assets, Mr. A from IronMace may be liable for digital piracy.
@@iToxicMochi If he stole stuff from Nexon servers no matter how it's licensed then it is theft, not "digital piracy". But that's not what Nexion has accused them of
It's like copying math homework or math test. The answers should be the same, but everyone needs to show their own work of getting to the solution. Idk how Charlie's viewers are having trouble understanding such a basic concept.
@@F34RDSoldier805 they proved they bought the assets from unreal what more do they need to prove?
It baffles me how many people are going to bat for Nexon. We know almost nothing about P3 and it seems like they were never going to release it. So why are so many people acting like Nexon has some kind of established property?
Might makes right. Nexon is the bigger name with more clout by far, that’s all it is IMHO. Never mind that Nexons track record is that even if they did release P3 it’d probably be permanently shut down a year later or something lol.
You don't know jack shit because all you hear is from discord or some youtuber making a bad propaganda video lmao
You'd think that the way people are talking in these comments that they've played p3 for years.
Charlie is a bit misled if he thinks the court cost would go to the millions, you don't really need that much, the case isn't that deep, there is not much to argue but a few points. The Gofundme could and absolutely will cover the expenses
It's not just 'copyrighting the genre'. Nexon and their staffs' statements so far is basically, the director of IM and their team used Nexon "resources", not just "assets from Unreal store" to develop P3. This means they used programmers, artists, storyboarders, etc etc ON NEXON'S DIME, to develop this game idea, how it works, functions, the "walkthrough" to create this game. Then because of dissatisfaction for working under Nexon, the director takes the entire "walkthrough" of how to make this game (which was developed, again, with people and resources PAID BY NEXON), goes off to make his own company and follows the "walkthrough" almost to the letter to make Dark and Darker.
Asmon's argument is, you can't do that, legally. If you could, everyone would do it, and no major gaming company would then ever WANT to fund these 'exploratory expeditions on game development' as the idea holders can just pitch an idea to a gaming company/sponsor, develop the roadmap for like, 99% of the game on the company's dime, then flee to make their own company, follow that 99% roadmap and finish the last 1% to pocket all the profits for themselves.
Yes but Nexon needs to prove that and as of yet they haven't.
@@Neil-qg9cw Technically true, as they have yet to prove it in a court of law. By that same metric, neither have IM. However, Nexon definitely must have 'some' evidence for the police to take action, and as Kira pointed out, S.Korea has SUPER strong unions that protect workers but the same union has done nothing against the sacking of the director. One can then infer that the union saw something shady going on.
These goobers mat have ruined a great game
Yo Sudden Attack is almost identical to CSGO but only has Korean servers and it used to be as popular as league in 2012. Which makes the lawsuit so much more fucked up
This is like PUBG sueing Fortnite
Or H1Z1 suing PUBG, or the mod for ARMA 2 suing H1Z1 etc.
Holy shit his chat is so insanely mind numbing its painful
Charlie's chat is something else
Also a real world comparison. Blizzard North develops Diablo II, Blizzard then cancels future Diablo games. Development team of Blizzard North leaves and founds Runic Games to make Torchlight & Torchlight II which are Diablo clones in a different setting. Not that it matters because Korean Law is constructed to ensure the larger corporation always wins, gotta protect the Chaebols.
Good point and I might be wrong on this but didn't blizzard have devs leave and found the studio that are now making stormgate that is basically StarCraft but fantasy.
Praying for better future
I hope the next game like DaD to come out is absolutely flooded with people. Watch nexon copy and paste their unfinished trash and slap on microtransactions to everything
11:46 Hey Weihang1998, GOOD!
Rip the only game ive been looking forward to, Nexon literally ruined there already bad reputation
It is actually the opposite. Ironmace ruined P3, the only game you were looking to.
@@이름아님 P3 was a canceled project but okay, wouldve been dogshit anyway done by Nexus.
@@Twofortyyy Who knows? Because Ironmace was the one who ruined it. That actually said, there is NO EVIDENCE that Nexon tried to interfere in the development of P3. It was just Mr A being 'not comfortable with Nexon'.
Oh, and by the way, it wasn't to be Nexon's. It was to be Mintrocket's.
Mintrocket is Nexon's subbrend, which is intended to be 'get money money money from Nexon, and make a game that doesn't need much monetization'.
And to this, P3 (or Dark and Darker) fits in perfectly.
There is not much way to earn something with DnD.
Well DaD was good while it lasted I guess, I suppose it will be fine when Nexon or another company comes out with the same thing in a few months but it's crammed full of micro transactions "rent this sword for a week just for $19.99" "Wanna be the best dungeon crawler? $14.99 a month and you get the battle pass, another 14.99 a month and you can get +10% on gold drops, +5% xp boost etc etc" then people will eat it up baby, gotta play it then, especially when your favorite internet persona is getting a nice check to push it.
Honestly im not a lawyer but cant Ironmace just reference Blizzards case against steam over Dota2?
Dota Dev's didn't steal files, poach half the dev team, and torpedo a project. The two aren't comparable to a dude taking an idea from a mod he worked on and expanding it into a different game.
@@wintesrain everything was stolen and recreated.. they even used characters from blizzard games with the same name/skills
after the case was settled they had to change a lot of things about Dota2 to keep it up not saying you are wrong but sounds pretty similar to me when it comes to a courtroom
@Chococo they dont, thats what the whole case was over. Because valve bought the guy who created Dota(mod in Warcraft) to create Dota 2. Blizzard didnt like this and hench the lawsuit. Dota 2 development suffered setbacks while other games like HoN and LoL had the limelight.
how can it be non compete if the original game doesnt even exist
Good question.
Can't they dissolve the company before they make any sales. And just restart the game as a new company. And rinse and repeat to waste Nexon's money?
so they will push it right? no brainer?
Stop saying Ironmace can’t win a legal battle because they don’t have the funds Nexon has. They raised 40,000$ in 30 minutes, without any marketing. Plus there are almos liek Charlie with millions of dollars that he wouldn’t mind throwing to them too.
People just have to admit that all circumstances point to Ironmace being at fault.
Charlie’s chat never fails to be full of absolute dimbasses
Ngl, I don't see a lot of streamers getting tilted at their chat like Charlie does, LOL.
chat is off their meds with their takes..
normal tuesday for twitch chat
Charlie huffing that good copium
i remember combat arms... first game i learned dll injection and rez modding on.... good times
Nexon bots hard at work in the comments on both RUclips and Reddit.
@youroshiyoshi yeah I am and I'm having a blast not being a shill for a multibillion dollar corporation trying to bully indie devs
@youroshiyoshi hello shill
@@lilboigreasy shills going at it with one another....
I dont know about that. Tell me why the posts that actually tries to present the fact of what happened (without bias opinions for both sides) are being deleted in the Dark and Darker reddit? Who are the bots that are trying to hide something instead?
I hate Slapp Suits. One is still ongoing with an gunmaker based in Arizone. Runkle of the Bailey did some vids on it.
Chat REALLY had L takes here
the studio still is standing and adamant that they won't be backing down
Not ganna lie I’m with nexon on this on
What have we learned from this situation, Charlie thinks far to emotionally topics and does poor research and just believes things face value, he didn't have much validity before this but he just destroyed what little he had left. Their is nothing wrong with him being wrong, its the fact he to look at the actual good arguments on purpose like literally just watch Asmon's video but he won't because he knows he wrong.