Cutting Helical Gears on the Horizontal Milling Machine: Setting up the Lead Attachment Part 2
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- Опубликовано: 15 окт 2024
- Cutting Helical Gears on the Horizontal Milling Machine: Setting up the Lead Attachment Part 2
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I suspect, there's thousands of people like me, that have never seen a job like that carried out..
Cheers 👍👌
I was an MR (machinery repairman) in the Navy for 22 years. I went to MR "C" school in 1976. We cut these gears as well as spur , bevel and the worm and worm wheel.
I find it amazing that people seem to be able to get old machinery parts from all over and get everything they need to make things work..
Quite often you can make the thing you need if you have a way of finding out the proper dimensions of it.
keith has a big enough audience that he can ask for parts in a video and someone will email him and say they have one.
I appreciate your honesty about your own inexperience at doing this operation. Makes the rest of us feel in good company.
First time I have seen anybody do this on you tube so it is for sure an adventure!
Way back in 1976 our high school metal shop set up a milling attachment on a lathe to cut a helical pinion gear for a truck axle. It was a very complicated setup and took a very long time.
finally helical gears! I've been waiting for one of the youtube machining guys to make some content regarding them.
I sincerely hope you have a couple of apprentices to pass along this knowledge. Thanks, I'm fascinated.
That is one clever bit of old kit. The set up is insanely complicated though, makes me thankful for computers.
This is why you get jaw dropping price quotes from machine shops on what you may mistakenly think is an easy job.
Set Up Time.
This series has been very, very eye opening on what it sometimes takes. Not to mention the very specialized equipment on top of everything else.
Set up is a killer. I remember telling a customer that the final bill would be the same for any number of items between 1 and 10,000 because of set up and minimum material batch sizes to meet specs.
After seeing how complicated this set-up is, I realize how much skill was required in order to make parts like the gear you are replicating. Hats off you sir for reminding us that we wouldn't be where we are today without the skills of men from the past.
No matter the machine, generating helical gears is a pain... At least for gear driven machines. I cut gears for a living and thankfully there are good apps for figuring out closest gears for differentials on hobbers. It takes a while to do the figuring longhand.
Watching you go through the learning process is very interesting, even if it makes it hard to make a "professional" video. Don't be afraid to take us on the journey with you!
I have been waiting for Keith to try this gear cutting set up out.
I like the new format. Let’s me see some of your stuff with my busy life.
It’s been decades ago, but if I remember, the tapper screw can be used at nominal intervals to set table dead nuts.
I couldn't figure out how you were going to get the angle cut on the table without cutting the sides of the gears a lot.
Then you turned the table. Sheesh. I should have known. I can only plead that I've never seen it done. Nice to see it getting done. Thank you.
This is IMMENSELY interesting!!!
Thank you Mr Rucker!!!
Good morning Keith from the UK, time for a coffee and education ☕😁
Hello Paul. Me too, also in the uk.
Hello there from Oxford England 🏴
It’s the uk Keith Rucker Appreciation Society!!
Fascinating Keith, can't wait to see the chips fly!!
Fascinating and sent me running to review the ins and outs of gear design (why helical gears?). I cannot wait to see the machining in action and to learn the problems that you'll encounter. It would seem very easy to get the setup angle opposite what is needed so the test gear would be a very good idea -
Helical gears run extremely quietly. They may or may not last longer because of the way they mesh
Just imagine what was going through the minds of the engineers that designed and built that attachment. It's amazing to think that it was so before the computer.
And to think they were also using slide rules to work out the math! I still have a nice Frederick Post one that was my Dad's but I haven't used a "slipstick" in so long I'd probably have to start over to learn how to use it! 🤔
If you peruse old magazines, 1905 and alike, you'll find they did pretty much everything we're doing today, thinking the same too, just with more hat and suit.
@@aserta And safety tie.
Look up differential hobbers if this intrigues you. Automatically generates the gear due to a differential gear train inserted between the index table gears and the feed gears.
Prior to differential hobbers, you'd have to calculate the helix angle lead into the index gears. While this worked, you'd have to run the hobber in reverse in order to return to starting position alignment for a second pass.
Back then they had to use their minds instead of fingers tapping keys. A lot of that mental brain power has now been lost.
as always, enjoyed the video. thanks for sharing. looking forward to the rest of the story !
This takes me back to the sixties making a helical gear when I was an apprentice. The other use for the input connection is for differential indexing.
Thanks for sharing Keith.
I'm calling it now, you are a true living legend.
Good luck. We are pulling for you.
good call Keith on making a sample first, I do that and it takes the pressure off on having to do it perfect. makes the project so much more enjoyable to do.
Watching all of that heavy metal meshing intricately, it's amazing. Reminds me of the Brick Experiment Channel, but with iron!
Oh the anticipation! 2 Steps forward 1 step back. We will get there in the end. Thank you for all your hard work.
"When all else fails, go read the manual" Man, that hits pretty close to home 😁
I've been waiting for this. I've had a K&T 2H for some years and I've managed to find the universal head with parking attachment, the dividing head and a complete standard lead box and gears. I also have an incomplete low lead box.
Hi Keith! I have a FUN suggestion ....Why not invite Tyler to your shop for a Team Video on this complex process. He has cut many helical gears and has this totally De-Bugged. Plus he is articulate, enthusiastic, and very intelligent.
I for one would love to see him get a "Moment in the Sun " with you, so.......Roll out the Red Carpet for Tyler H. from Southern Indiana and you will be happy you did. Thanks, Mark C.
Thanks for sharing! Some of the first competitor (pre-computers) were gear driven calculators and drawing machines.
What an amazing gizmo!
Hi Keith, Please try the tapered bolt into the threaded hole, there may be a tapered hole for it to fit in and lock the table on that angle I love your videos, and watch everyone. Cheers, Lee.
That’s what I was thinking also!
@@paulstanley31 I have a Brown & Sharpe No 2 universal mill from around 1912 and it has a tapered bolt to index the table at O deg. Not a new invention.
It is very cool seeing all of these pieces coming together.
Keith, you might want to look into acquiring some machinists wax for your blanks. Steve Watkins used it on his YT channel to make a part on his CNC machine. It's recoverable and reusable, which will save you $$ in materials.
After cutting the gear you will probably be the first in 60 year to cut helical gears on a manual mill kudos you are braver then Most
Makes sense why shops that do a fair amount of gear cutting had dedicated machines and operators for these operations
Yep. They are a bit of a PITA to setup, even on a hobber designed for it.
Thank you for sharing. Better to be on your A-game here. Enjoyed.👍👀
i always admire the designer of the machinery who worked it out in the first place!
Great video Keith, keep'um coming..
Thanks for tutorial for helical gear set up❤😂🎉
Kieth this is very interesting to see how it was done in years past
Very interesting series. Thanks for the excellent content.
Nice project!
I am no mill operator, but would there be positive stops for 45 degrees on your mill? I do know that drill presses and radial arm saws have a positive stop at 45, or at least my own do. that would make the 45 as accurate as the 0. I only ask because you were unfamiliar with that feature.
That is brilliant. Keith, I do admire your ability to find and actually use this equipment. Computers are great and wonderful things til they quit working. You just mash the clutch, shift the gear and keep moving. Thank you for another great video..!
Challenging project! Really enjoying the journey.
Hey Keith , even a learning journey video would be fun. You've already left my thoughts on the cutting floor. going to be interesting either way
Wow, this one is making my head spin 😆
That's has to be really scary being the first time setting all this up. Also fun and exciting.
Near my UK house there is a specialist engineering shop, that makes gears for pre-war grand prix cars, like the Mercedes and Auto Union and other old race cars. I watched him cutting the double helical (Citroen pattern) gear for a 1934 Lagonda M45 constant mesh dog clutch gearbox. Quite an experience.
Will the tapered pin fit back in to align the table perfectly to 45 degrees?
Was going to suggest the same thing!
Just an observation, I may be wrong, but you may have rotated the table the wrong way. From the glimpse we had of the original, it looks like a LH helix. I think your table rotation is set up for a RH.
I have cut 45deg helicals on my Elliott mill using the vertical head tilted to get the cutter angle as it's not a universal machine and sympathise with you over the difficulty of the setup. It really does push the working envelope of the mill.
I actually got my hands on a K&T 2K universal and two of those table lock bolts where broken off in the bottom of the tapered holes, I had to remove the table and saddle off to fix the issues.
Your Milwaukee is one I never had run . Would love to see videos of running test parts to make sure things are set up right
I really is enjoying this video.
Keith it is almost like going back to school
Seeing the blank still on the arbor does worry me a little bit.
Hope you did read the comments about importance of the timing of the keyway in relation to the gear teeth.
Amazing to see such complex parts being made on manual machines.
Three million billzion ziillion people have comment on that . I'm sure he knows.
When in doubt, RTFM :) Really enjoying this demonstration Keith!
Very interesting video take your time and make sure it's done right that's the way Keith Rucker does things great going Keith can't wait till your next videos I want to watch every one of them
Great content thank you
I have always wanted to cut a helical gear on my Bridgeport. I should have all the equipment to do it. I’m so glad I have never had to cut a helical gear on my Bridgeport!
A lot to take into account. I would have thought the attachment accounts for the 45 degree tooth angle. Thanks very much for sharing your journey.
@@flat-earther Thank you. I went and looked at a couple of other YT videos of this setup in action. You are absolutely correct.
@@patrickcolahan7499 Hi Patrick, Perinne here, Keith deleted my comments and blocked me from commenting, doing to others what he wouldn't want done to him.
On another note, sure & thank you, I'm glad we figured out how the gear cutting works.
KEITH, LOOKS GREAT, I WILL WAIT ON YOU / I THINK I'M READY TO GO TO WORK/MAYBE, GREAT VIDEO...SEE YOU WHEN...
I did some helical milling many years ago,. It was not for gears but for a part for a printing press. I had the extra complication that I was having to make an imperial part on a metric machine.
45 degrees sounds like a large helix angle for a single helical gear, think it would result in guide a high axial force.
45° is rather rare for a helical (at least in my made to order shop) . Usually we make anything from ~8° to 23°30', but we use hobbers.
This is going to interesting to say the least
Apologies if you mentioned it and I just didn't catch it - but is there perhaps another hole for the tapered plug at 45 degrees? Being common angles I wouldn't be surprised if there's a hole for 30 and 45 in either direction. Super weird to see a milling machine with an angled bed though; almost more interesting than the attachment!
Did you check to see if there is an index drilling for the 45 degree setting? If it is similar to a DeWalt RAS there should be an index for the alignment pin on the 45 degree position. I did notice the taper on the pin which is similar to the taper on the RAS at the index points.
I’ve have a timing gear on an old tractor that needs to be replaced. I have a Brown and Sharpe universal Milling Machine that I would like to cut the helical gear on. I’ve wondered how to measure the lead on the gear and how to get the correct gearing to rotate the bank properly. Thanks for posting this video.
I'm curious if there is a locating hole drilled at the 45 degree position that utilizes the pin you removed. It would make sense that the most common angles would have those "detents" in place.
Yes!!! I've been waiting for this episode. My job at tech school was to calculate the gear train to cut helical gears hahahaha.
the anticipation is killing me.. hahaha very interesting never seen this done before thanks Keith.
"I've never done this before" in the words of "Jimmys world" "what could possibly go wrong" no sweat Keith just do it!!!!!
Aaahrg, the suspense is killing me Keith!
So, this turns that and then the other goes around and all of it moves forward and when it's all done you get a do-hicky with weird teeth. And the whole thing was invented by Rube Goldberg! LOL I love it.
This is mind boggling.
Thanks 👍❤
Hey Keith - Great video! You might consider setting up a straight edge on the table at a true 45 degrees and then indicate the table in. As I recall, this is for a cam gear which is going to spin pretty quickly and needs to be right or it will fail prematurely. Just a thought. Great job! Keep them coming. :)
I laughed when you said you were going to read the manual. We're all the same. The best part was the manual was mum about rotating the table. Been there. Done that. Bought the neck brace.
In a way I am like Keith. He restores and uses vintage machine tools. I restore and use vintage radios. There is a real head rush when you key a transmitter that has not been used in 80 years, or bring back a 100 year old receiver.
In my early teenage years {early 1960s} I brought home many 1930s-vintage AM radios from the local town garbage dump {long before the safety nannies surrounded our "sanitary landfill" with high fences}. By swapping vacuum tubes between radios I eventually restored a few receivers to full function. Listening in the summer of 1965 to the Stones "Satisfaction" played by a local AM radio station at loud volume on a top-quality 12" electro-dynamic** loudspeaker was a game-changer for me, & the beginning of my career in audio electronics & physics.
How do kids today get their hands on equivalent antiquated tech to learn the basics by experimenting? RUclips videos are a great resource, but hands on is often superior - you smell hot components, see wax dripping from failing paper capacitors, watch a thick rectifier tube filament start to glow dark red, experience the shock of touching a finger to ~350 volts DC {the back of my skull punched a dimple into the wallboard of my bedroom, a lesson I never forgot}, etc, etc.
** uses an electromagnet field coil that does double duty as the L of an LC filter for the high-voltage B+ rail
@@flat-earther Please take your nonsense elsewhere. What does this have to do with machine work?
Thanks for sharing 👍
👍that tapered bolt doesn’t index the table at 45 degrees?😊
Was wondering the same thing.
He would have seen the hole when he had the flashlight on it. You’ll have to go scold Messrs. Kearney and Trecker for not machining more tapered index holes into that big casting.
That looks like it will take a lot of thinking, but you can handle it!
Keith just a thought, maybe take and indicate a 45deg angle gauge and check your angle on the table just to make sure your truly at 45 deg
Being close is enough for a functional gear. Being a degree off will slightly change the tooth flank geometry, but I doubt the original was a precision ground gear with tight tolerance.
Is 0 degrees the only index point? Thanks for your time. Pete in South Carolina.
I wonder if that table has a position with a tapered hole for that pin that was taken out for "common" table angles to assure accuracy.
Does the location pin fit at 45 degrees. It would seem that it probably does. Like many others, I'm sure, can't wait to see it in action.
I thought that too.
Look into the tapered pin hole to see if there's a locating taper at 45 degrees. If there is you'll probably have to clean it out first.
You might be the first person to use that lead attachment to cut a one-off gear 😁 That's an incredibly large amount of setup, and I assume mostly they would get things ready and cut hundreds of gears over the course of months, then change the setup and cut hundreds more.
I'm not so sure about that. Back before CNC was in wide use, lots of machine shops would have routinely cut gears this way. The machinists would have known their machines from top to bottom, and would have been able to do these setups in their sleep. Just like blacksmiths knew how to work metal using skills largely lost today, the old-time machinists would have had no trouble knocking out the jobs in a timely manner on the machines they had grown up with. Todays technicians do the same but with modern machinery they can do it quicker and to finer tolerances, but it is still amazing to think what was achieved back in the day.
For a real eye opener google the Antikythera Mechanism.
Cool 😎
I can totally see me screwing this up in so many ways. I'm sure I'd get the direction and angle right - except the flange of the gear being on the wrong side :D
8:00 rotating the table, a first for everything. :)
I am curious to see how you index the gear to align the camshaft timing marks.
I'm curious if there may be detent holes for that alignment pin at various degrees other than zero.
You know what that thing needs? A CV joint somewhere along the driveshaft that drives the dividing head, so it can spin at an angle.
Really fascinating series. Your detailed explanation of the setup is extremely interesting. Thank you very much!
As I had to do some helical milling with similar setups recently, I wrote a tiny octave/matlab script which found the (close to) perfect combination of change gears. (Also useful for thread cutting an a lathe.) Feel free to contact me via email (available in the "about" section of my channel) if you are interested.
Why is it that machinists tend to use adjustable wrenches and open end wrenches instead of box end wrenches or sockets, especially when dealing with very tight fasteners? Just curious.
You either have 100 wrenches across all of your machines, or an adjustable at each alongside 1-2 common wrenches per machine. You don't want to not have redundant wrench sizes if using dedicated wrenches because it takes a lot of time to search for which machine had the ¾ inch wrench last.
hello Keith
Just a quick question
What would a fair price for a Barnes Drill press Model 201 1/4
I just do not want to dig myself into a very deep hole .
Thank You
Check that tapered pin. On my Deckel FP1 universal table there are tapered pin holes at 0 and +-45 deg.
Certainly a good test part made of aluminum or plastic. Then you can try and adjust.
Also, soft material is better if something goes horribly wrong then you won't damage the milling machine.