Yo PhiDX, Sin here. I'm honored to hear your analysis on my yoshimitsu and all the praise around it for both videos. :D I got lucky to help you while you were streaming haha. Like I said, ask me anything whenever you want, I'm happy to oblige! #YoshiOPbutCool
Love your yoshi! I was wondering at 26:25 if you didn't go for the DGF 1 mid because the last time you did raw DGF you did the unbreakable high grab? Just a thought I had. Also, hearing you say that yoshi is OP, what do you think is OP about him?
@@Tuuubesh0w Yes I did, and thanks for the support😁 Why imo he's too op? 1. He does too much dmg. 2. He has too much wall carry. 3. Flash and spin naturally counter the way this game works. 4. He can dictate the pace of the game however he wants.
@@DownBadDad-iz9mp Its universal for the DF2s thats safe but dont launch crouchers, All counter hits on DF2s that launch, launch both crouching and standing.
Just take breaks in between, like play an hour and 20m breaks works wonders, unless you have achieved ultimate flowstate and are on a rampage then you should go further x)
Tekken has always been a clusterfuck. Most balanced it's ever been was like tekken 7 season 2 or 3 around there I believe. But if you look back there's always been some broken ass shit and if they fix it, something else breaks 🤣Its beautiful...
It makes a ton of sense that even some high level players can’t break throws consistently. For example, King fastest grab is 30 frames or 500ms. Now when people talk about reaction in Tekken, they like to bring up the textbook google answer to the question “what is the average human reaction time” which the answer is 250ms. But this is because it’s a single stimuli and single response. For situations like 50/50s it’s 2 stimuli and 2 responses, opponent using a low or mid is the 2 stimuli, and you ducking or blocking mid are the two responses. So for 50/50 the reaction time is going to be a bit higher then just 250ms. But throws have 3 stimuli and 3 responses, 3 different arm positions, and 3 different break combinations. And you have to make this decision within 500ms for King’s fastest grabs. Now looking online for reaction time research I found claims that complex recognition reaction time can take as long as 700ms on average. Now that to me sounds like the small difference in arm position, which arm is above the other, which arm has the glow trail. That seems like a small or complex detail to notice. But even for very simple recognition 500ms seems too fast on average. I found a NIH study that showed that the average reaction time for someone to react and respond correctly to 3 different colour visual stimuli (red, blue and green) is 550ms. To be clear though this was a decently small study and done on only females. But I don’t think anyone is gonna argue that females are significantly worse at reacting than men, so I don’t feel that should invalidate the argument. So the average person would have to improve their reaction time by 50ms, which is no small feat, that can take years of consistent training. Seems like a lot to base an entire character around if you ask me, especially when even if you can break throws, all you get is to not take damage and characters like King have great powercrushes to use out of grab breaks. Seems like a huge bar just to negate damage and reset, in a 50/50 situations you’d usually get a full combo for reacting properly. And remember, it’s 550ms for just colour recognition, not more complex things like arm placement or trail placement/orientation, so the real number for grabs is probably closer to 600ms. So when I look at reaction times research online it doesn’t seem surprising at all that most people can’t break throws, they seem to already move faster then the average person can react, but that’s on top of the other aspects and pressure of Tekken gameplay as PhiDX mentioned. It’s hard to be ready to react and break grabs when you are worried about all the other parts of the fight, 50/50 mixups, sidesteps, pokes, keep out etc etc.
"But I don’t think anyone is gonna argue that females are significantly worse at reacting than men" I wish. People will argue women are worse at everything that doesn't pertain to taking care of others
It's doable, I've started doing it and right now I break about 3 out of 4 throws in ranked. But I already have more than 300+ hours in, so it just takes time I think. You no longer react and make a decision, you see the grab, you immediately know which break you need. But indeed with King, especially with the 50/50 grab it's more difficult, but then again he is a grab based character, would be weird if that whole moveset is useless against pro's.
High level players can break throws easily nearly all the time. You can't just go off this one example of a pro that' still fairly new to the game. Throws were much harder to break in older Tekkens and yet even there most throws were being broken at the pro level.
Then theres SF with their throws where you have to predict if they will throw you or not cuz its next near to impossible to tech a 7 frame throw window 😂😂😂
Delay tech removes the need to predict throws. The counterplay to that is to shimmy or do a meaty attack on wake up. The reason why Street Fighter players eat throws is because throws do less damage than a full combo because interactions can snowball just like Heat Engagers/Bursts are.
for those of you who have trained on throws and are very good in practice mode but have no luck at all in an actual match, train your dragunov ghost to do throws non stop with a handful of attacks in-between, then spend a bit of time trying to actually fight that ghost, not just tech throws. Completely turned my throw game around.
Being that good after only starting playing Tekken since Lidia first came out is crazy! Any other examples of someone basically only getting into Tekken in the last 3 years and being good enough to beat pros?
What I've found is that as less players are using the Tekken 7 ultra defense Style ..... even if they were/are great at breaking Throws while defending ..... more Throws hit now purely because due to the having to be ultra Aggro nature of Tekken 8 the chances of them pressing an attack button that is not the break button when a throw comes out is higher now. This is why I think we see more throws hitting in Pro Play too.
Yo PhiDX, can you do a reaction/analysis of Arslan Ash's tier list. I'm not sure if it will be outdated but he put my main Yoshi in Top5 and honestly I can see the reasons
Man I got wrecked by a Hwaorang's throws in Flyquest Fight Series and I spent hours in training against just his throws so I have a slight chance of breaking them better, and I don't know how to improve my reaction time. I'm just labbing throw breaks as much as i can and hoping for the best.
I'd recommend adding basic punish training into the routine, stuff like his -14 ob power crush and stuff, because just grinding the same throws isn't going to do anything if you're expecting them to come out. You gotta be ready for every situation, not just throws. So what I mean is that you make the bot do safe moves, moves you can punish, launch punishable moves and throws at the same time.
Hwos grabs always mess me up, he just moves his hands a lot differently than other characters, they arw closer to his body and harder to see for me, while someone like Dragunov moves his hands a lot more when he throws.
hardstuck eliminator because i cant for the life of me see throws and lows :D everybody just running up and mashing throws non-stop and i cant do anything lel
Yo PhiDx! This may not reach you but I really have a dream of winning evo someday. I'd love for you to help me get the basics of Tekken down. I see myself engaging in bad habits already however I'm not sure which ones are which. I'm fairly new so if I nip them in the butt now I'll be better in the future. The character I'm learning is a mix up heavy character that requires solid fundamentals which I'm having trouble getting down. I got the spirit. I got the drive. Basically I'm asking for a anime style training arc. If not 1 on 1. Do I just watch every Tekken 8 How to-video you have up? My pops always say a closed mouth doesn't get fed so I'd thought I ask regardless of outcome. Either way I'm getting on the main stage:)))!!!
PhiDX, I think you (and your viewers) could benefit if you can analyse pro Bryan gameplays since Bryan players need to do a lot of conditioning just like how Sin did in this match
I’m only ever gonna bother learning how to break throws when they increase the window to break them, they deal so much damage, can trigger stage hazards for full combos, beat out power crushes, all for such low risk and negligible reward for breaking them. They should be heavily minus on break or have a reasonably reactable window for players with average reaction time, if not both.
u can launch throws. (im fairly positive) Furthermore tekken has never been a game that caters to make things easier. The regular throw break window is fine, if they increase i swear ppl are not gonna be getting grabbed at all. CH throws eh, maybe, its the fact they get caught offguard that gets ppl so idk if i wanna call tht broken either.
you have to have throws in a fighting game, and before t8 introduced these counter throws, they were almost a non-factor in t7 which i really disliked. of course before in other tekkens they were just too damn difficult to break for almost everyone, so that was no fun too. I think this balance is good.
Hwoarang’s kit is just inferior, not just to Yoshi’s, but pretty much to everyone. His movement and evasiveness are non-existent. His Lows are few and weak. His combo execution is highly technical in terms of buttons input. I hope Hwoarang players start getting the respect they’re due, especially when competing at this level.
@@Straaaayyyy By frequently, you mean K-Wiss, and Speedkicks a few years back? And yes, what I wrote means that he’s bad, he’s B tier at most. Plus most people have studied Hwo thoroughly from when they were destroyed in lower ranks, leading to a very solid matchup knowledge compared to other characters.
@dimitrisstavrou6930 he might be lower on the tierlist but he isn't bad seeing how Swiss and speedkicks make him work. You just not as good as them so you downplay
People saying how tekken pros can’t break throws are probably the same people who say “why can’t pro boxers just dodge punches?”. Like dude, theres a lot more going on when you’re on the hot seat
The unfair situations that this game put u in bcoz of heat makes it so boring to watch coz there is absolutely zero skill to activate heat and push for a smash or dash and those 2 r mids with huge frame advantage. It’s unfortunate that none of the content creators addressing how busted the heat is and how it shouldn’t be in a highly skilled based game like tekken.
Yo PhiDX, Sin here. I'm honored to hear your analysis on my yoshimitsu and all the praise around it for both videos. :D I got lucky to help you while you were streaming haha. Like I said, ask me anything whenever you want, I'm happy to oblige! #YoshiOPbutCool
Love your yoshi! I was wondering at 26:25 if you didn't go for the DGF 1 mid because the last time you did raw DGF you did the unbreakable high grab? Just a thought I had. Also, hearing you say that yoshi is OP, what do you think is OP about him?
@@Tuuubesh0w Yes I did, and
thanks for the support😁
Why imo he's too op?
1. He does too much dmg.
2. He has too much wall carry.
3. Flash and spin naturally counter the way this game works.
4. He can dictate the pace of the game however he wants.
@@DarkLemonMan I see, all good points. Thanks! Good luck in tournaments moving on! I'll be watching 8-)
CORRECTION: Yoshi df2 is a normal hit launcher, but doesn't launch crouchers
Wavu says that df2 will launch crouchers on CH which is cool
@@danielsteffee7957 do you know if this applies to similar df.2?
@@DownBadDad-iz9mp Its universal for the DF2s thats safe but dont launch crouchers, All counter hits on DF2s that launch, launch both crouching and standing.
@@PhiDX now this makes sense. Because it didn't seem like a CH launcher. But that's great considering it's safe.
I thought I was done with Tekken 8 but Phi keeps dragging me back. Watching a random video gets me wanting to play again.
Just take breaks in between, like play an hour and 20m breaks works wonders, unless you have achieved ultimate flowstate and are on a rampage then you should go further x)
Why you want to be done. Tekken is a culture. We don't get done here. It's for life. 😊
Tekken has always been a clusterfuck. Most balanced it's ever been was like tekken 7 season 2 or 3 around there I believe. But if you look back there's always been some broken ass shit and if they fix it, something else breaks 🤣Its beautiful...
@@biivii100 Tekken 5 DR is really balanced too I think
@@onebums Isn't tekken 5 where steve had an infinite? 🤣 or was that pre DR?
This is what I was looking for... Great stuff PhiDX.
It makes a ton of sense that even some high level players can’t break throws consistently. For example, King fastest grab is 30 frames or 500ms. Now when people talk about reaction in Tekken, they like to bring up the textbook google answer to the question “what is the average human reaction time” which the answer is 250ms. But this is because it’s a single stimuli and single response. For situations like 50/50s it’s 2 stimuli and 2 responses, opponent using a low or mid is the 2 stimuli, and you ducking or blocking mid are the two responses. So for 50/50 the reaction time is going to be a bit higher then just 250ms. But throws have 3 stimuli and 3 responses, 3 different arm positions, and 3 different break combinations. And you have to make this decision within 500ms for King’s fastest grabs.
Now looking online for reaction time research I found claims that complex recognition reaction time can take as long as 700ms on average. Now that to me sounds like the small difference in arm position, which arm is above the other, which arm has the glow trail. That seems like a small or complex detail to notice. But even for very simple recognition 500ms seems too fast on average. I found a NIH study that showed that the average reaction time for someone to react and respond correctly to 3 different colour visual stimuli (red, blue and green) is 550ms. To be clear though this was a decently small study and done on only females. But I don’t think anyone is gonna argue that females are significantly worse at reacting than men, so I don’t feel that should invalidate the argument.
So the average person would have to improve their reaction time by 50ms, which is no small feat, that can take years of consistent training. Seems like a lot to base an entire character around if you ask me, especially when even if you can break throws, all you get is to not take damage and characters like King have great powercrushes to use out of grab breaks. Seems like a huge bar just to negate damage and reset, in a 50/50 situations you’d usually get a full combo for reacting properly. And remember, it’s 550ms for just colour recognition, not more complex things like arm placement or trail placement/orientation, so the real number for grabs is probably closer to 600ms.
So when I look at reaction times research online it doesn’t seem surprising at all that most people can’t break throws, they seem to already move faster then the average person can react, but that’s on top of the other aspects and pressure of Tekken gameplay as PhiDX mentioned. It’s hard to be ready to react and break grabs when you are worried about all the other parts of the fight, 50/50 mixups, sidesteps, pokes, keep out etc etc.
"But I don’t think anyone is gonna argue that females are significantly worse at reacting than men"
I wish. People will argue women are worse at everything that doesn't pertain to taking care of others
@@sleepybinch True, wishful thinking on my part…
It's doable, I've started doing it and right now I break about 3 out of 4 throws in ranked. But I already have more than 300+ hours in, so it just takes time I think. You no longer react and make a decision, you see the grab, you immediately know which break you need.
But indeed with King, especially with the 50/50 grab it's more difficult, but then again he is a grab based character, would be weird if that whole moveset is useless against pro's.
@@martijn2973 So you now stated it is intuition not reaction
High level players can break throws easily nearly all the time. You can't just go off this one example of a pro that' still fairly new to the game. Throws were much harder to break in older Tekkens and yet even there most throws were being broken at the pro level.
Then theres SF with their throws where you have to predict if they will throw you or not cuz its next near to impossible to tech a 7 frame throw window 😂😂😂
“Take the throw!!!!” *takes 3 throws in a row*
Delay tech removes the need to predict throws.
The counterplay to that is to shimmy or do a meaty attack on wake up.
The reason why Street Fighter players eat throws is because throws do less damage than a full combo because interactions can snowball just like Heat Engagers/Bursts are.
Hate to break it to you but most fighting games have unreactable throws buddy
26:50 I reckon he was trying to duck the unbreakable grab from the helicopter stance. He got hit by that earlier in the match and it was devastating.
throw breaking is a huge and painful time sink and I still can't manage to find enough discipline to train it properly
where's that one dude in the comments that goes "you don't have to make a 40 min story about this bro it's just two dudes who knew the matchup"
Not a clue. Hopefully bro doesn't show back up, these analysis are great
PhiD with the "pause". Legendary.
I really wanna see sin play way more in tournaments, he is such a fun guy to watch 😁
Tekken is a real game, less barrier to entry than other fighters. The mind creates depth, don't need extensive combos.
absolutely love how relevant grabs are in tekken now without making them hard to break outside the counter. it's a genius compromise
for those of you who have trained on throws and are very good in practice mode but have no luck at all in an actual match, train your dragunov ghost to do throws non stop with a handful of attacks in-between, then spend a bit of time trying to actually fight that ghost, not just tech throws. Completely turned my throw game around.
can i download your dragunov ghost
12:25 damn that was really cool
Phi! You didn't link your other channel in the description. I'm looking 😭
Being that good after only starting playing Tekken since Lidia first came out is crazy!
Any other examples of someone basically only getting into Tekken in the last 3 years and being good enough to beat pros?
I know of some training now who have tons of potential!
Not the last 3 years, but Joka started Tekken in 2019.
SIN is a great player for sure. But he is right Yoshi needs nerfs
I'd just nerf his combo damage honestly, everything else is fine he just can't have all those things at once
What I've found is that as less players are using the Tekken 7 ultra defense Style ..... even if they were/are great at breaking Throws while defending ..... more Throws hit now purely because due to the having to be ultra Aggro nature of Tekken 8 the chances of them pressing an attack button that is not the break button when a throw comes out is higher now.
This is why I think we see more throws hitting in Pro Play too.
Watching that match live in the audience I was in awe about the throws
Amazing analysis!
how do i get that shelf with the fightsticks
now i feel better for not breaking throws and will never learn to do so thanks pdx
Sin is playing like Atif and he has the best character for such a style that is Yoshi. They both act when you don't expect them to.
Yo PhiDX, can you do a reaction/analysis of Arslan Ash's tier list. I'm not sure if it will be outdated but he put my main Yoshi in Top5 and honestly I can see the reasons
still not sure why you say pause during the video but dont pause anything. is there something im missing?
Then there are online players who duck or break every throw you use. Despite mixing it up. We have lot of hidden gems. :)
I hope you cover the HAVOK tournament next!
As a K-Wiss fan it’s really cool to see you analyze some of his games 🙌 great content bro!!🔥
3:23 take it in with ur nose trust
Hey Phi can u plz break down a good Law player if u haven’t already!
🙏
I knew it was k-wiss when I looked at the video title
d4 into flash...God damn
Man I got wrecked by a Hwaorang's throws in Flyquest Fight Series and I spent hours in training against just his throws so I have a slight chance of breaking them better, and I don't know how to improve my reaction time. I'm just labbing throw breaks as much as i can and hoping for the best.
I'd recommend adding basic punish training into the routine, stuff like his -14 ob power crush and stuff, because just grinding the same throws isn't going to do anything if you're expecting them to come out. You gotta be ready for every situation, not just throws.
So what I mean is that you make the bot do safe moves, moves you can punish, launch punishable moves and throws at the same time.
@@TafferFGC This is awesome advice, thank you!
Phi may I ask what's you psn?
❤
Hwos grabs always mess me up, he just moves his hands a lot differently than other characters, they arw closer to his body and harder to see for me, while someone like Dragunov moves his hands a lot more when he throws.
👑
🎉🎉🎉
Throws are OP, they should be punishable at least if you break them
🎉
Are you maining yoshi now?
An Emoji! 😻
If Yoshi kept his previous version of Flash *oof
is it still launch punishable?
@@josephquezada6138 You mean the Flash in T8? Yeah, it's launch punishable. You still have to time it otherwise you're going to get spanked.
df2 is natural launching, safe ob.
Thank you, I got jumbled trying to clarify that it doesn't launch crouchers
@@PhiDX No worries! Keep up the great content!
im A Noob At Tekken But i Break Many More Trows Than The Pro Players Kinda Strange My Man
Then suddenly xiaoyu comes in and ruins Kwiss' day XD😂
Which is funny because Xiaoyu and Hwoarang are Jin's long-time friends, aside from Miharu, since T3. 😅
hardstuck eliminator because i cant for the life of me see throws and lows :D everybody just running up and mashing throws non-stop and i cant do anything lel
🗿
Yo PhiDx! This may not reach you but I really have a dream of winning evo someday. I'd love for you to help me get the basics of Tekken down. I see myself engaging in bad habits already however I'm not sure which ones are which. I'm fairly new so if I nip them in the butt now I'll be better in the future. The character I'm learning is a mix up heavy character that requires solid fundamentals which I'm having trouble getting down. I got the spirit. I got the drive. Basically I'm asking for a anime style training arc. If not 1 on 1. Do I just watch every Tekken 8 How to-video you have up? My pops always say a closed mouth doesn't get fed so I'd thought I ask regardless of outcome. Either way I'm getting on the main stage:)))!!!
I don't watch tekken. tekken watches me.
Here’s your emoji, Phi. 🌝
Tekken Pros cant break Tekken throws?
PhiDX, I think you (and your viewers) could benefit if you can analyse pro Bryan gameplays since Bryan players need to do a lot of conditioning just like how Sin did in this match
I’m only ever gonna bother learning how to break throws when they increase the window to break them, they deal so much damage, can trigger stage hazards for full combos, beat out power crushes, all for such low risk and negligible reward for breaking them.
They should be heavily minus on break or have a reasonably reactable window for players with average reaction time, if not both.
u can launch throws. (im fairly positive) Furthermore tekken has never been a game that caters to make things easier. The regular throw break window is fine, if they increase i swear ppl are not gonna be getting grabbed at all. CH throws eh, maybe, its the fact they get caught offguard that gets ppl so idk if i wanna call tht broken either.
you have to have throws in a fighting game, and before t8 introduced these counter throws, they were almost a non-factor in t7 which i really disliked. of course before in other tekkens they were just too damn difficult to break for almost everyone, so that was no fun too. I think this balance is good.
Hwoarang’s kit is just inferior, not just to Yoshi’s, but pretty much to everyone. His movement and evasiveness are non-existent. His Lows are few and weak. His combo execution is highly technical in terms of buttons input. I hope Hwoarang players start getting the respect they’re due, especially when competing at this level.
None of what you said makes him bad 😂 he is still solid A tier frequently used in tournaments
@@Straaaayyyy By frequently, you mean K-Wiss, and Speedkicks a few years back? And yes, what I wrote means that he’s bad, he’s B tier at most. Plus most people have studied Hwo thoroughly from when they were destroyed in lower ranks, leading to a very solid matchup knowledge compared to other characters.
@dimitrisstavrou6930 he might be lower on the tierlist but he isn't bad seeing how Swiss and speedkicks make him work. You just not as good as them so you downplay
bruh he has a hell sweep
I never understand how ppl will disagree and not explain themselves. But be baffled when ppl respond
People saying how tekken pros can’t break throws are probably the same people who say “why can’t pro boxers just dodge punches?”. Like dude, theres a lot more going on when you’re on the hot seat
The unfair situations that this game put u in bcoz of heat makes it so boring to watch coz there is absolutely zero skill to activate heat and push for a smash or dash and those 2 r mids with huge frame advantage.
It’s unfortunate that none of the content creators addressing how busted the heat is and how it shouldn’t be in a highly skilled based game like tekken.
❤