A Jungle Too Far: Britain and the Vietnam War
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- Опубликовано: 18 ноя 2024
- Robert Fleming, Curator at the National Army Museum, explores how a secret British involvement in the Vietnam War came about through covert operations, proxies and attachments to US, Australian, and New Zealand units.
Part of the Lunchtime Lectures series - a programme of free talks that takes place at the National Army Museum in London every Thursday at 12.30pm.
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At one stage I was the only Australian officer in our infantry company. OC from the Gurkhas 1pl 3para 21c Green Howard's (as I remember). They all joined up at Australia House in London and one Officer never returned to Australia but flew by US Air force to Germany and thence to his unit in UK. As I remember we had about 20 in the battalion who joined at Australia House.
A british unit in sarawak during
The indonesian confrontration
Of 1964.65 picked up an american voice on its radio
Get off this frequency he said
We are fighting a war here
Really replied the brit we are
Winning ours!
I personally know of one person who started off in the RAF. In a competition he was found to be a good shot, and transferred to the army and trained as a sniper. At a later date he was sent to Vietnam to serve alongside a US unit.
He won't talk about it now, as many of those he served along side of, were killed in action.
I served with Guy Bransby in the RAF Regiment .. What a chap, What story's he told us .. Respect to him where ever he is now
Sadly Guy, who was my flight commander on basics, passed away not long ago.
What an excellent presentation, I learned a lot. Thank you. Watched on Christmas Day, 2023
A chap I know operated alongside US troops as a sniper. He later went on to work at Jodrell Bank.
Operation Hydraulic was the codename for an operation IN 1967 to deploy 13 Lightning Mk6 aircraft of No 74 Squadron from their base at Leuchars, Fife, to RAF Tengah in Singapore.
42:11 Dick Meadows was a US Army Sergeant with US Special Forces (Green Berets). He was part of an exchange program with 22d SAS, kinda why he was in his American uniform.
Oh dear. Pretty major mistake there.
Yes he is but the context here he is in US army but in exchange program with 22d SAS. That training by SAS.
He hasn't mentioned the support rendered by the British merchant marine of which I was one. Sailing up the Mekong on top of 30,000 tons of gasoline and jet fuel.
My grate grander was in merchant navy during ww2 merchant navy is grate thanks for your service
I heard that Ho Chi Min wrote to Truman soon after the end of WW2 seeking his assistance in gaining independence?
One bit I did already know regarding his comments, where he states: "It has been suggested that the RAF's 34 Squadron Beverleys or possibly C130s, were flying directly into Nui Dat." This isn't actually a suggestion but a fact - The RAF supplied Beverleys at the request of the US government to take on 'humanitarian' supply drops to the Montagnard peoples and thereby release USAF C130s to supply the siege at Khe Sanh. [Sorry, forgot to say, excellent lecture, thank you!]
See my comment on RAF aircraft - NONE ( Eexcept one) ever landed at Luscombe Airield at Nui Dat. You are talking through your bum.
Retired Australian Army Major: I. N. Brookes.
Sandhurst recruit that didn't measure up in the 1960s.
(Politics of the time + failed the paper in a test on Nuclear Physics exam?).
Emmigrated to Australia mid 1960s and joined army.
Always wanted to be a soldier since days at Denston?
Fought in Vietnam, grandparents and sisters worried sick.
Survived serveral tours of duty, in the region.
Stories of him being a Tunnel Rat, for a tall guy, very odd.
Married, late 1960s one son back then.
Got to be the
p.o.m.e major.
When he retired got a job with U.N.I.C.E.F far east and denmark.
Charity work in Laos, with talks on the Vietnam War today.
Now in his mid 70s, grey hair if thin.
Illness like so many others due to the compounds-Agents used.
Who can tell when his war will end?
Australian Government Pension include money for Alcohol for all Veterans,
Who saw action in that war.
Time a movie was made, about the P.O.M.E Major Brookes.
Nice talk. Very informative and interesting.
When I was a Aust soldier during Vietnam I met not ONE Brit NCO..I did meet ONE Brit SAS on detachment and a Lieut in sigs on swap. But apart from that SQUAT!
No you weren't and no you didn't.
So what? They weren't supposed to be there? Australia shouldn't have gone either.
@Peter You talking to me mate or OP?
@Nicholas Mead We had just fought in Malaysia........so what's your point?
@Nicholas Mead I think you must drink too much
Glad he pointed out that he may not be able to support most of his points. Definitely an interesting view.
Foxtrot Oscar !
I saw an earlier RUclips video which said British were involved in Vietnam at an earlier stage and had got a grip on the situation using the same methods which they were using in Malaysia. Then the country was "given back" to its French colonial masters, who immediately screwed things up as only the French can and the rest is history
Had the british, australian, malayan and new zealander soldiers be involved ivietnam, like they did in Europe, the vietnam war would have had a different outcome
there was a lot that went on there to do with the British army that is still very very secret
I spent two years in Vietnam and I'm a Yorkshire lad ! ee by gum....
The Navy Seal Trump Flag
How can I get in touch with you to ask about this?
+toothpick4649
Today Yorkshire is an Asian province.
But were you an active member of the British forces during the Vietnam war? Have you got any proof?
@John Cliff So when your grandchildren ask you why did nothing to stop globalists using mass migration to destroy British cultural identity and nationhood so that Britain could be dissolved into the borderless world of collectivized global feudalism, populated by deracinated mongrelized illiterate manual workers with no property or inheritance rights, all controlled by a one world government, all of which has been the publicly declared aim of communism since Moscow 1917. When your grandchildren ask you why you did this, you will answer: "Because I couldn't be bothered to learn how to make my own curry".
act of betrayal yeah thanks for the back up on the suez
Exactly..... all the while of course, 'anti-imperial' USA had control of the Panama canal and spent the next few decades bullying their way around Central America.
Its not America's fault that the UK and France didn't realize they couldn't exercise independent foreign policy.
what did you do in Iraq?
@@salahad-din4114 That's what happens when you want access to the seas and don't maintain the world's first navy, you have to kowtow to the country that does have the world's first navy. We spent the 19th century with our foreign policy largely dependent on the British Empire, because they were the ones who maintained control of the seas. You then choose to trade in your navy for free healthcare, so now your foreign policy will be determined by those who did not make that deal with the devil.
@@costakeith9048
The US was eager to jump into the RN's role. The problem was they screwed many things up, lacking diplomacy.
Sir robert Thompson was the greatest Counterinsurgency leader on earth.
Fantastic story about the Cornish man who ended up saving all those folks in the twin towers.
My friends dad told me he was there as a British soldier, he said as a helicopter gunner.... he also said they were there unofficially! I’ve always wondered if it was true or not!?
It's true, believe me.
@@sinclair4frenzy proof!
It has long been my contention that Harold Wilson, very much maligned due to his 'will not affect the pound in you pocket' statement, during a currency devaluation, was actually one of our very best Prime Ministers. Clearly, the British government at the time, with it's experience in the region, knew the Vietnam war was unwinnable. Judging by the recent Ken Burns series, President Johnson thought the same.
Wilson had a balancing act to maintain. Keep the Atlantic Alliance together between the US and UK, and not get the UK involved. He seems to have judged it to perfection, and for that we must be grateful. How many Prime Ministers since would have succumbed to the pressure. All of them I am sure. Heath had it easy to stay out as the war was already seen as a lost cause by the time he took power.
@sol walker most notable would be the Malaya emergency and the Mau Mau uprising in Kenya which occurred shortly before the Vietnam war. Both followed the same sort of pattern as the US found themselves in in 1965. A shitshow of counter insurgency warfare in the jungle.
The US tried the wage conventional warfare and paid the price. The Boer war's were a very long time before this and i'm unsure what lessons from that were applicable to vietnam.
@@anonymous2513456 lets not forget Yemen emergency
I agree,and have always said,that Mr Harold Wilson,saved more UK lives
than any Prime Minister,by refusing to assist the US in Vietnam.
Anyone care to look at SEATO , it's members and it's goals. Do so, then make a comment understanding that Great Britain was a member of SEATO.
And did not honour its SEATO obligation.
To address why we are good at what we do. We learn and adapt quickly from our errors of judgement. No prejudice. No preconceptions. We like our traditions, but we don't let them get in the way of effectiveness. How d'you think we governed India for so long?
Even if its in the wrong direction !!!!!!
@@andyb.1026 The UK made India into a better place than the shithole it was and when we left them the UK left everything in working order like railways, hospitals and much more !
My mate Pat at Glasgow Queen street station emigrated to Australia. Got conscripted. Went to Vietnam. Got shot in the arse. Came home. There are stories of course. Like who shot him. I had another mate who had fired Garratts in Northern Rhodesia but that's a different story.
Britain had fought In the jungles of the far east during ww2 against the Japanese. Soon after the first anti communist war of the 20th century was the mayalisan emergency which was unlike the Vietnam war a success .From 47 /1960 .
See my comment. All military and, more importantly, strategic aims were gained , no thanks to Britain.
Great stuff, but that bloke is shockingly bad at reading out loud. It's like he's reading the words but doesn't really understand their meaning.
Somewhat nervous I think. Really well done for getting up there.
You want a historian/researcher or a presenter
I agree with Matthew, the bloke's just reading a script.
The Americans fought the Vietnamese War with their hands held behind their backs due to journalists being accommodated in operations. The British war in Malaya was conducted in 'secret'. What the public didn't know the public didn't worry about. The British had to carry out methods of operation in Malaya which, if reported by the press, would have caused outrage.
so you are saying the british committed war crimes
There is a picture in the public domain that shows a Royal Marine on campaign in Mayalisa holding a head of Communist gurilla in his hand make of that what you will. I'm sure the Chinese and Mayalisan Communist fighters also committed war crimes probably against the local population.
War...gives birth to war crimes!
There is not a single war that took place on our planet that didn't have war crimes in it.
The North Vietnamese NVA & Vietcong, were using all the time local civilians and villagers as a shield , a human shield vs the Americans to prevent bombing an area... and if they did ,even with caution to protect innocent people, they would still be called baby killers and war criminals! Figure out...
It was a lose - lose situation. How the U.S. got so deeply involved into that conflict , it really goes over my mind... they messed up big time! Wrong strategy, wrong tactics, and wrong mentality. As a U.S. vet once said, "we were fighting the previous war (example the WW2).
RIP to all the fallen heroes of that war, Vietnamese or American.
It was for nothing.. Colonisation was dying and the local communities took in charge , the same thing would have happened to Vietnam, but uncle Ho was in a hurry..
Peace ✌
@@chrisholland7367 Two heads
Shaaaaaaaaaaaaat aaaaaaaaaaaaaap!
It is amazing how good the Poms are at Jungle Warfare. Think about it? England and its Tropical Jungles. Love the Queen and Her Empire!
+Jono Edwards Thank you.
and got beat almost every time?
Burma (Chindits), Malaysia, Borneo the Brits won. and they trained Americans and S. Vietnamese soldiers in the early 60s.
FOR YOUR INFO.. THE POMS WERE VERY GOOD AT JUNGLE WARFARE..AND SUCCESSFUL... YOU CLOWN
do you want to elaborate on this bollocks comment then mate? when exactly did we get beat almost every time?
What i found in this video was the amazing amount of semi-bald heads, glad the lights were turned down, if fully lit the glare would have caused my eyes to water.
So Rick Riordan was THE most decorated soldier of the Vietnam War? I didn't know that, although I remember his story from the week after September 11th.
There are schools of thought that the reason the Americans betrayed the British at Suez was due to the British refusal to get involved in South East Asia.
Nope Suez was 56. The Americans were angry because we didn’t tell them in advance, the Egyptians under Nasser were pushed towards the Soviets even though Nasser was not a communist and because it was in essence an old fashioned imperialist operation to protect British and French interests when the USA was against imperialism which impeded American efforts to expand into new markets in the Middle East and elsewhere.
Kennedy said, ''No War".
LBJ said, "Get me elected and you can have your War!"
At the end of war in the Pacific, the huge build up of materiel was not returned to the States.
Half was given to Vietnam and half to Korea.
Thus, Ho chi Min had heavy weaponry to destroy Dien Bien Phu and now had what was captured.
This would be handy in the Vietnam War!
Kennedy was a bullshitter at the same time he was saying no war he was putting the USA into MORE war !
If The Brits went to Vietnam, it would have looked like "It Ain't 'Alf' 'Ot Mum"!
Rick Rescorla , Union Jack Jackson.
I wonder if the writing was on the wall.
Mark Felton has a short but interesting video on the British war against the Viet Minh in Vietnam september 1945 to january 1946.
ruclips.net/video/1w-cv2CJbfI/видео.html
If the British had been allowed to "finish their job" history could have looked quite different and the French and American Vietnam wars might never have happened.
We had a good labour prime minister in charge not a Poodle a rare thing indeed in British politics.
Britain was engaged briefly in 45.46
Rearming japanese troops to fight viet minh in south vietnam
However returning french took over
In 1947 and british withdrawn along
With japanese
Also many japanese fought with Vietminh!
Great point at 28’55” about some in the USA not realising not everyone sees US democracy as the greatest gift to the world.
I’ve had debates with Americans who think the only free country is the USA and that in Britain we are all royalists tugging our forelocks to the monarch and the aristocracy as if we live in a Downton Abbey style Britain.
The USA has done many great things over the centuries but it has also made many mistakes, as all countries do. But as long as it is the number one military and economic power I can’t see it changing its foreign policy to one where it doesn’t interfere in other nations business.
They remind me of Britain pre WW1 when we had the empire, a quarter of the world was pink and flag waving nationalism was at its peak.
My god this is bad .
Even at 5:29 he mixes up Giap and Ho .
Giap is in the white suit .
Ho is in shorts with a white shirt .
Elements of the SAS were also in Vietnam
I THOUGHT OF A NAME!!! Do you mean the 'SAS' from the UK or the 'SASR' from Australia?
Britain, Australia, New Zealand and Southern Rhodesia (now known as Zimbabwe) all had their own SAS regiments/units..
I know that the Australian SASR were in South Vietnam but I have never heard of the UK SAS being deployed there.
The special relationship between England and the US is akin to that between a dog and a lamppost with England being the lamppost !
That may be true but England is not the nation state, the nation state is the UK of Great Britain & Northern Ireland. You are a walaper!
Yeh ! Go back to school.
I wonder if anybody will ever find out what that Vulcan was doing over the Mekong Delta in 1965?
A photo of a Vulcan in the air is not proof that they flew over Vietnam.
Rick Rescorla - want a job done right !
This guy really made some leaps of imagination. If this was a thesis for a degree it would have been rejected as unsupported.
Sorry.. the guy is correct in his work. The Americans got it all wrong. As did the Soviets in Afghanistan.
I must say British born isn't the same as a British soldier being temporarily 'transferred'. Canada used to be full of British born people who either grew up here or worked her for years before joining the Canadian military with no prior experience.
Rick Rescorla- true Brit, true hero!!
He should be posthumously knighted.
I can remember celebrating the victory of North Vietnam. After a bloody struggle, that for the Vietnamese, the human cost continues, the use of agent orange, by the Americans, has cause deformity, early death, and ill heath to millions.
UK soldiers could have volunteered . there was no draft in the UK, it stopped in 1960 & only can only be used if the country is at war which is wasn't, the whole British government refused to get involved..
Is it possible to get a source list for this?
50:13 The most decorated US Soldier in Vietnam was Rick Rescoria? Are you taking the piss? He was awarded a Silver Star, 2 Bronze Stars and a Purple Heart. Worthy achievements for sure, but hardy "the most decorated". Try looking up the very American Robert L. Howard who was awarded the Medal of Honor, eight Purple Hearts, a Distinguished Service Cross, a Silver Star, and four Bronze Stars. This "most decorated" thing is bullshit in any case. It's not like there's a point system where some number of Bronze Stars equals or surpasses a Medal of Honor.
Senior British politicians and civil servants said quite plainly the reason Britain didn't enter the Vietnamese war, It didn't enter the Vietnamese war for the same reason the French and the israelis didn't
I don't think this guy mentions Suze once dose he 👈😐
Lesson: don't treat your allies like shit and expect them to fight for you 😕
I feel like that was a missed point. Perhaps of the US had been supportive of a more equitable settlement of the Suez Crisis then the UK would've taken an economic bailout for the price of a brigade (likely being deployed in a quieter sector) for a set number of years. TBH I think Wilson should've taken it.
It seems like there was a low-key, covert British involvement in Vietnam after all.
Britain has no eternal friends, and no perpetual enemies....
I am sure that both The Black Watch regiment & all of Scotland are delighted that our famous Perthshire regiment wasn't involved in that hideous Vietnam undeclared war.
10;36 they there wasn't a south Vietnam and they never asked for America assistance and he seems to forget after the French defeat part of the paris accords they had to leave Vietnam after and let Vietnam have their elections
42:12 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_J._Meadows same guy as in the video?
He got involved in an , ambush once, and with the patrol members killed all the enemy soldiers but an enemy soldier ( NVA ) escaped with an american weapon. It was an AR15 . He swam across a river and went after him... He came back with the weapon..
Yes that is him you should also look up Mr Charles Beckwith he was also trained by the British SAS before he then went to Vietnam.
My Vietnam literature collection is about 7 feet tall. This presentation has twice the shady s*** than I could dig up in a month in the books obtained from here in America.
Rhodesan sas, Australian sas, New Zealand sas .
British on attachment, unafishal, same as omen.
Rick Rescorla the most decorated US soldier in Vietnam, except he's British. He did have some prior military experience though, but nevertheless that's amazing.
I'll bet not many knew that. Well done that man.
What most people don't understand....The US military DID win the Vietnam War! The indigenous Viet Cong were eliminated in 1968, during the Tet Offensive. The North Vietnamese mechanized invasion in April 1972, was pushed back using American B-52's. The bombing of Hanoi in December 1972 was so devastating, the North Vietnamese returned to the peace table and America's Vietnam war came to an end. ONLY the political decisions..the removal of Richard Nixon and the removal of support to the South Vietnamese Army, undermined the promised air and ground support Nixon had made prior to the total withdrawal of American forces. THAT and not the lack of military successes against the VC and North Vietnamese Forces.... lost South Vietnam to North Vietnam.
British tactics in Malaya would never have worked in Vietnam..The Vietnamese communists had both a a guerrilla force and a conventional army in the NVA...The country had a modern anti-aircraft defence system built by the Soviets..don't delude yourself..
It would have on the ground.
@@johnburns4017 you don't grasp the size of the task that the Americans faced..General Giap is one of the 20th century's greatest generals..The NVA was a quarter of a million strong and that does not include the VC proper it
@@kailashpatel1706
Read what I wrote.
@@johnburns4017 wrong wrong wrong
@@memoresto3480 The Peoples Army of Vietnam got thrashed in Tet ( 40,000 KIA out of 120,000 invasion force). No popular uprising, played into American tactical strengths and wasted two divisions in the futile Siege of Khe Sanh. Never regained the initiative afterwards.
History is great. I love it. This guy makes it sound like he's reciting / reading out instructions on how to make a carrot cake. This could have been an amazing talk, instead I feel like I am listening to a snooker commentator.
He's an academic. Research, analysis and writing skills do not necessarily translate into public speaking/education skills. Do you want a fun story or actual history?
Not everyone can give a lecture as good as say Max Hastings and others.
I had some lecturers at university who it was a pleasure to listen to. But I also had some who came across as very dry in their delivery. All however knew their subject so I tried to take as much in as possible regardless.
No reference to Suez.
Quite so - the American sixth fleet harassed the Royal Navy until the troops were completely withdrawn from the canal. It was wholly unnecessary but when Viet Nam came along, not forgotten in Whitehall, or in the navy.
*Anthony Eden !!!!!*
Mike Gabb Or Korea.
Chord
No reference to the Bay of Pigs either
excellent lecture
U.S-In Nam-1956? Can Anyone Confirm This?
Vincent Reynolds read a few books that say advisers were there in the mid 50s
The US was there since the 1940's in WW2 messing around !
28:50 i started clapping
Why? Because a stuck up Oxford educated liberal decided to take the usual cheap shot at America. And here I thought that the interviewer was going to be impartial.
Maybe you hate America because we dominate the movies you watch or the music you listen to, I'm not sure.
The south wanted involvement and aid dumbass.
@Danny Deans
The purpose of the 10 years of war in Vietnam was to pass a hundred billion dollars of US taxpayers money into the anonymous private pockets of the Military Industrial Complex. Watching Americans line up in front of voting machines is like watching cows line up for the milking machine.
yeah i don't think the citizens have a say when politicians go to war.
The japanese had control of
Indochina for five years
Being fellow asian they had no
Real trouble pacifying the
Country actually the british
Rearmed them in 1945 to keep
Law and order until the french
Returned!
USA's first mistake was paying for every tittle of the First Indochina War. The French didn't deserve their Colony back. Big dumb clucking machine, Charles de-Gaulle, with the womanly hips was exceptionally well hated by all the top brass in America.
Bruh, by the last few years of the Indochina war the US was complaining that the French weren't committed enough to it. The French probably would've left earlier or not fought as comprehensive of a campaign as they did if they didn't have the US throwing money and pressuring them diplomatically to keep fighting. Ironically, the US discouraged France initially.
@@joeblow9657; The French are not without sin here.They collaborated with the crimminal gangs and treated the people badly.
These crimminal gangs re-emerged following the Nov. 2, 1963 CIA backed military coup and assasination of Ngo Diem and and his brother Ngo Dinh Nhu while Madame Nhu was on a U.S. tour.
A huge absence of analysis and conclusions.
and any verifiable facts.
A bit of a mish mash between speculation and coincidence. Ever since there were ANZ armies there has been a large preponderance of British born in both armies...around 30% in 1914 and in the mid 30's the NZ army was bostered by a recruiting campaign to bring ex British army NCO's over.
Totally wrong on Nui Dat airfield (Luscombe). It was a caribou and C123 field only, C130's could only land under exceptional circumstances and then only with a class A pilot....Beverley's would not even attempt.
Drawing a very long bow to hit an exceptionally small target......not impressed.
V3coy 4RAR/anzac Bn......1968/69 (seven ex Brit army)
Freedom cost a buck-o-five.
Can't listen on beyond the nonsense talking about Gulf of Tomkin incident and reporting the then American story as fact. One would have hoped ones teacher would have caught on (especially after the papers were released and US government admitted some of what did and didn't actually happen.
Vietnam began on the lie that was Gulf of Tomkin incident (auto suggested incident as word after Tomkin just now!)
*Tonkin
Suez
Lol
" They accused Wilson of being a hardline communist, but this is inaccurate. He just just a supporter of Democratic socialist organizations and advocated for a classless society."
Huh. What? 👃I smell somethin.
Wilson was no communist. If you read about political ideologies and the history of the British Labour Party it supports the liberal Democratic system we have in Britain.
Wilson was in some aspects a Social Democrat and in others a Democratic Socialist but at heart he was also pragmatic and very intelligent.
Since he's from the country that produced Donald MacLean, Guy Burgess and Kim Philby; Robert Fleming dismissing anti-communist concerns at the time as "Reds Under the Bed" seems kind of disingenuous, if not sounding a little pink himself. 🙂
*Did UK forces (SAS) serve in Vietnam?*
No. The assertion that they did is apocryphal.
Great Britain's Wilson Labour government in the 1960's wanted nothing at all to do with the U.S. military intervention in South Vietnam as a matter of policy and the British Ministry of Defence under the Wilson government would never have authorized personnel of any of the British military forces to get involved in any belligerent or combatant role in hostilities in Vietnam. This obviously would include British military personnel on exchange postings or secondment with U.S. or Australian/New Zealand military forces.
Military missions were attached to several foreign embassies in Saigon, including the British embassy, during the Vietnam War but their role was as purely passive observers of the conflict and to report back to their respective governments on developments in the war and the conflict's military situation and progress, or lack of it, at any given time.
British-born members of the Australian armed forces and U.S. armed forces did serve as belligerents or combatants in the Vietnam War but they were not members of the British armed forces.
S.A.S-In Nam?
Vincent Reynolds
why not? rumors that Green Berets died from 'accidents' in Germany were actually killed in northern Ireland fighting the IRA.
Australia SAS were
James Henderson has anything been uncovered using the Freedom of Information laws?
Bob Barnes and NZSAS. It’s hard to imagine Brit SAS NOT being involved.
@James Henderson really... provide proof that Brits were awarded medals for service in Vietnam serving as Brit troops.
He doesn't even know that Douglas 'Home' is pronounced HUME. He's a dull amateur. Anyhow a boyhood friend of mine, serving in the Royal Signals Regiment (or Royal Corps of Signals) was sent to Vietnam, seconded to a New Zealand unit. So that's one British serviceman sent unofficially to serve in Vietnam. I'm sure that he was far from the only one.
G'day,
Ahoy !
Australia very definitely "have to turn to Conscription" in 1966 as asserted here at 46 Minutes in...; because *Australia had inflicted Conscription on itself in about 1958 or 1960, in preparation for the War our Prime Muppet Menzies was convinced was imminently inevitable,* I wasn't born till 1961, but I know that in the late 1950s *every male who was fit* had to do 3 months Basic Training age 18, and by the early 1960s it was a Birthdate ballot, and everybody whose Birthday came up and passed the Medical Examination was drafted for 2 Years' - unless they were University Students who could defer their Service until they stopped Studying or the War ended, whichever came first.
But *Conscription in Oz was ended by the Vietnam War, not begun in order to sustain the Commitment to the War against Dominoes...*
Or was it the..., "War to Kill a Commie for Christ, the better to make the World safe for Capitalists, to sell Coca-Cola to the Buddhists..!" ?
Such is Life,
Have a good one...
;-p
Ciao !
PS,
Menzies was expecting the War to be with Indonesia...
;-p
Warbles. The 3 month training in the 50's notwithstanding, Menzies introduced 2 years conscription by the marble birthday ballot specifically to supply combat troops for the Vietnam War.
America has never been a Democracy , giving the right to put a cross alongside an unknown's name , means nothing. Washington admitted after 1776 that only about 35% of the settlers supported independence.
The strong anti-communism agenda didn't start with McArthurism , but in 1917 with Woodrow Wilson . A political move that became known historically as the 1st Red Scare , the 2nd started in 1939.
The Cold War in Europe was due to America , Trumans Marshall Plan was formulated to stop the spread of communism throughout Europe. It caused great angst in the Kremlin , thus the arms race .
Nato which allowed American troops to go home , if Russia had attacked in 1950 the only means to stop them was the threat of Americas nuclear bombs.
As Enoch Powell wrote in 1943 , Britains biggest enemy , greater then the Germans or the Japanese , our ally America.
speculative rubbish
Brtiain was LEADING a commonwealth alliance for 12 years during the Malayan Emegergency? Who was TRAINING them.? ....AUSTRALIANS....
Sq12Sq22u22 Australian soldiers are amazing. They don't get enough credit.
I think you'll find the nauseating screams of Australians claiming they don't get enough credit (for anything) far out weigh any objective appraisal of their contributions in all conflicts since they've become a 'nation'.
Doug Spencer.
You may consider my perspective is not "objective" as I am Australian and have ancestors and other relatives who fought, were wounded, decorated for bravery, and died in both World Wars where Australia went to the aid of Britain.
It is true that Australians have a myopic view of Gallipoli, as that was the first major military campaign for the 14 year old Federation, and do not give enough credit to the British there, who contributed about 7 times as many troops as Australia, and would be surprised to learn that there were more Frenchmen there. But their concentration on the ultimate failure at ANZAC cove also means that they fail to understand the contribution that Australian troops made to winning the war on the Western front out of all proportion to their numbers.
An all volunteer army, they were almost all combat troops, relying on Britiain for the logistical support. The Australians, along with the Canadians, became the shock troops of the British armies. They Australians were indespensible in stopping the German offensive of March 19i8. French civilians loading their carts to flee the oncoming Germans began unloading when they saw the Australians heading up the road to meet the Germans. To this day, the words" N'oublions jamais l'Australie" ["Let us never forget Australia "] appear in the classrooms of the school in Villers-Bretonneux, in northern France.
The Australian and Canadian corps spearheaded the Battle of Amiens on August 8 1918, advancing an unheard of 8 miles on that day, which Ludendorf declared "the black day of the German army". That began the 100 day advance which ended with the armistice. The Australians captured 25% of prisoners and guns that the British armies took in that period, a far higher proportion than their numbers in the field.
In the second world war, the second Australian Imperial force, again all volunteers, were vital to the British efffort in the Middle East, until most were recalled home to meet the Japanese threat. The 9th Division remained to play a major role at El Alemain. There were a large number of Australin bomber squadrons and Australian aircrew in British squadrons of bomber command until the end of the war in Europe. One relative of mine was to go out in the Great Escape, but being the closest thing they had to a doctor, gave up his place to another man who was among those executed. He felt guilty about that for the rest of his life. He had joined the air force after his brother, a bomber pilot, was killed over New Guinea.
Australian forces inflicted the first land defeat on the Japanese in WWII at Milne Bay , New Guinea. They repelled the Japanese advance on Port Moresby, pushing the enemy back up the Kokoda track in apalling conditions to the beaches on the north coast where they had landed, only then recieving assistance from American troops. MacArthur never acknowledged the fact that thes victories had been won by the Australians, always referring to them as 'allied' victories.
I have had ancestors and other relatives who fought, were wounded, decorated for bravery, and died in both those wars where Australia went to the aid of Britain.
One Kokoda veteran I interviewed was also at the Battle of Kapyong in Korea, where the vastly outnumbered Australians and Canadians prevented the Chinese from going on to capture Seoul. From Ted Hearn's obituary, which I wrote and was published on The Age newspaper:
After the entry of Japan into the war, the 7th Division returned to Australia and then on to New Guinea, where Ted and the 2/14 were the first experienced AIF troops to reinforce the hard pressed Militia battalions holding back the Japanese at Isurava on the Kokoda track. Ted was wounded in the hip by a mortar round and although the bleeding would not stop, walked the 90 km back along the track. Ted returned for the final battles of the Kokoda campaign at Gona and Buna - the original Japanese landing grounds on the north coast. In the later Ramu Valley campaign, Ted collapsed with scrub typhus, a disease responsible for many deaths among the troops. He was repatriated unconscious to Australia, waking up in Heidelberg Repatriation Hospital wondering where he was and how he got there. After recovery Ted went before a medical board and was classified “B”, never to serve outside Australia, and ended the war in a supply unit.
In spite of his medical classification, Ted volunteered and was accepted for service in the Korean War, joining the 3rd Battalion Royal Australian Regiment. In Ted’s own words: “Korea had only two temperatures, boiling hot and freezing cold, I thought we should apologise to the Koreans and give the country back to them… The funny part was that when we first went ahead we went right up to the capital of North Korea. We got up there and we thought this is good, the war’s over in five minutes. Then the Chinese come in and they soon got rid of us. Pushed us right back to where we started from.” Ted was present at the forgotten war’s forgotten Battle of Kapyong, where the Australians held off wave after wave of attacking Chinese who were attempting to break through to Seoul. “They were like ants; they kept coming at you, blowing bugles and trumpets, making funny noises.” The battle concluded on Anzac day 1951. Ted said it was worse than anything he had experienced in the Second World War. His unit received a US Presidential citation.
Every nation has stories to tell but alot of popular Australian memory which originated in the 70/80's where in national identity took a steroid hit revolves around unfairly chastising Britain while sowing a narrative of daring do and martial prowess all when Britain maliciously and deliberately abandoned them - ignoring of course that the situation in Britain was utterly desperate (in WW2 anyway).
In the days of WW1 and WW2 peoples perspectives were a far cry from what they are now. 75% of the AEF and CEF in WW1, for instance, were either British born or had British parents and there were sound ACADEMIC (rather than fanciful hard boy farmer types) reasons for using both AEF and CEF as independent armies within the bulwark of British forces on the Western Front. The entire makeup of "Anglos" from throughout the Empire were inextricably entwined. Now we separate it all out into neat national packages and apply modern interpretations on top of it all while ignoring the framework from which all of those peoples came from.
My original beef was with Sq12Sq22u22. Britain had an army of jungle warfare experts spilling over from what they had learnt and disseminated in the often forgotten Burma campaign.
...best jungle fighters in the world... but I am biased..
FYI, the argument contained in this presentation has been thoroughly debunked elsewhere online.
+Downlink Which argument, there are many?
War was never declared, so it was a Terrorist attack. America also used uninvolved neighbouring countries as bases. Beaten by superior troops.
@James Henderson In reality, exactely the opposite ~ WWll Every Combatant Nation declared War.. 23 years & many Conflicts later, Vietnam was a Terr attack. And any way you paint it , USA was reamed ~ reamed by superior Troops..
I genuinely DOUBT this information. Long Tan for instance did not include SAS and most in the battle were conscripts. Sorry but I dont think this info is the truth at all....not from my PERSONAL experience.
G'day,
Well, on a couple of Points of Order...; 1) of the 18 dead & 24 Wounded at the Firefight in the Long Tan Rubber Plantation, 30% were Conscripts, and outbof those who fought there with 6 RAR, 30% were Conscripts...(overall, 1/2 the 55,000 Australians deployed to Vietnam were Conscripts, and 1/2 the 520 killed were conscripted..., but Long Tan was early in the piece - before the flow if Volunteers dried up.
2) On the 18th of August 1966, there was indeed a Platoon of the SAS Regiment out on a Patrol, in the Field, in Phuoc Tuy Province ; but they were miles off, in a different direction to where D-Company was, and so they didn't actively participate in the Shooting other than looking for NLF/NVA where they were at.
Just(ifiably ?) sayin' ,
;-p
Ciao !
Maybe warbles, BUT the majority of the Oz combatants in this particular conflict WERE conscripts, the group I was in probably had 60 % regs to 40 % nats, but there were only ever about 35 of us, so not a normal representation I suppose.
I was told once by a someone who had been in the Cyprus army that British troops had mapped out all the underground networks used so effectively by the Vietcong and handed these maps to the American Generals who threw them away saying they didn`t need the maps
@@daviddou1408
G'day,
Thanks.
I was born in 1961...; in 1967 we got a Television and,
"Now the The News from Vietnam..."
became part of Life - but I remember knowing what Conscription was in 1966.
In 1980 I started as a General Nursing Student at Repatriation General Hospital Concord, and over the next 3 years I nursed about 2,000 Veterans of Australia's every Military Adventure from 1914 to 1984, so I worked out when I graduated - for an average of 10 days per Veteran.
Trying to understand what happened in the Waaauugh(!) and why - from the Boer Rebellion to Iraq & Iran, was a big preoccupation.
My figures on Long Tan came from some (allegedly) learned doccumentary or other, and I happily stand to be corrected.
I thought Oz had sent 56,000 to Vietnam, incurring 5,000 wounded or injured & 550 killed..
But it's 40 years since I thought I knew a lot about it - merely a bit more than a lot of people my vintage.
I had a second cousin who was a Warrant Officer commanding a Platoon of Montagnards with the Australian Army Advisor Corps (Mack King...), he started out as a Commando in WW-2, was out as a Civvie during Korea and then went back in to tour Malaysia & Vietnam - twice.
Somebody had to try to make sense of it all - why not me (?).
Such is Life,
Have a good one.
;-p
Ciao !
@@daviddou1408
Right. You asked. Herewith be your Answer....
I was 5 in 1966, my sister was engaged, the Wedding Date wasn't set till after the Conscription Ballot to see if her fiance would be called up. He wasn't, I was an Usher at their Wedding in 1967.
My cousin's father was a K-Force Vet. & he (the cousin) had told me in '65 that I couldn't possibly grow up to become a Soldier in Glen Innes, because there was no War in Glen Innes..., the War was in Vietnam - and I'd have to go there to be a Soldier.
Childish Logic is impeccable, y'see ; & Roddy was a year older than me. He grew up to die in 1985, having got his head run over while motorcycling in Sydney Traffic. Vale Rodney Shaw...
My mother was a Primary School Teacher so I heard over the dinner table that one of the young male teachers had been called up....
I was young enough & dumb enough that I felt happy for him, so the next day in the Playground I went up to him & said,
"Sir, Sir..., I heard that you're called up, and are going to Vietnam ! Good Luck Sir... I really hope you don't get shot !"
Childish Logic strikes, again...
And the poor Buggar burst into tears, and ran off to the Staffroom, blubbering.
It was the first time I'd seen any Adult crying.
So, yeah - I had a pretty bloody good understanding of Conscription, in 1966, back when I was 5 ; while playing with the Plastic Coins which they gave us for familiarisation purposes - before Decimal Currency was introduced.
I don't use the Internet beyond this YT Chanel which my daughter bookmarked onto my prepaid mobile Phone ; but you should probably Google "Superior Autobiographic Memory..." to come up to speed on how much of Infancy & Childhood some people are stuck with being able to remember.
Just(ifiably ?) sayin'.
Here's another Vietnam War Story for you, from my childhood...
Mack King, my mother's cousin the Warrant Officer with the Team of Australian Army's Advisors to the ARVN, was indeed with the Montagnards. I met him in about 1970 or '71 when he showed up, unannounced, with his wife Barberra & 3 boys, pretty much freshly returned from his 2nd tour of Vietnam, or on R&R - I dunno quite which..., but they were going on a Camping holiday - so my parents suggested Reddestone Saphire Reserve & sent me along....
I found that Saphire fossicking was as boring as watching Batshit drying out, so I caught Crayfish instead..., and that night there was a massive Thunderstorm which flattened the Tent, busted the Poles, and Aunty Barb was spending a lot of time reassuring Mack that everything was all OK, particularly after each Lightning Strike..., he was rigid, shaking, teeth gritted, with the whites showing all the way around his eyes...
I'd never seen a man terrified by the noise of a Storm before.
It turned out that I was the only one in the Tent who was unaware that about a week earlier Mack had had to hide under the pile of bodies in his CP, when the Village he & his Montagnards were supposed to be "securing" was over-run. At night. After a Mortar Barrage...., and we were with him for his first Action Replay FLASHBACK (!), y'see.
Look it up. It's in the written history of the Australian Army Advisor Team to the ARVN - not too many of the Warrants got over-run in 'Nam, as I heard the story.
Mack's eldest son, the one who was a baby when his father was a civilian, he grew up to become a rich Stockbroker in Melbourne..., Mack & Barb retired to Pacific Palms near Forster collecting Rent on his block of Flats, Captaining the local Bushfire Brigade, and drinking a Crate of Rum per week, & he also had TWO Garbage-Bins of Homebrewed Beer going back-to-back, as well as what he drank at the Club....
In 1985 I visited him & Barb., & saw him break an Egg onto his teeth & swallow it raw with a teacup of Rum as a chaser, for Breakfast.
The two boys who were born after Mack went back into the Army grew up to become Junkies.
Aunty Barberra stroked-out & died, after decades of smoking & drinking (to keep pace with Mack), and her mother had been rich so Mack's boys all inherited moderate fortunes, & Mack went to the USA looking for his old AmeriKan Waaauuugh(!) Buddies, but they-all had got Religion, deeply deeply, & were unimpressed by his prodigious Booze habit - so he came home to Oz more or less broke & alone
His Junkie sons, having pumped their Grandmother's money up their Arms, took to standing over Mack, & beating him up for his money on Pension Day ; till finally my two K-Force veteran Uncles went up together and rescued him, selling his House & Flats & setting him up in an Appartment in Sydney.
But then he went to the Funeral of one of his mates from the Advisor Team, and Mack brought the "weeping Widow" home with him..., and she sucked him dry completely, spending his money and eating his Repat. supplied Tranquilisers & Sedatives & Hypnotics, while feeding him Booze - and by that time he was on the TPI Pension with Liver Chirrosis listed as a War-Caused Disability.
When he finally died, my uncle Bert told me that Mack's old CO publicly fronted the weeping "Black Widow" and told her in front of the Mourners that because Mack was the THIRD one of his Troops that he'd seen her bury - then therefore if he saw her going home from Mack's Funeral with ANY of the remaining survivors of his Command..., he promised that he would follow her & kill her.
So said Herbert James Crews, now deceased, once a Lance-Corporal in the Royal Australian Army Corps of Mechanical Engineers. He had no reason to lie about Mack's Funeral to me & I have not embellished the story, either.
My other K-Force Veteran uncle, Peter Shaw, has a surviving son who today is a Real Estate Agent at Pacific Palms, and so my Cousin Millionaire told me that one of our Cousins, the Junkie Beachcomber (Stephen King) cleaned himsef up after Mack died, and is now a successful Horticulturalist - I dunno what the other Junkie did in the end, and the Stockbroker son of Mack & Barb. is still making money somewhere.
So, Digger, unless you want to make yourself look really bloody silly, mate, then don't try to "come the Old Soldier Routine" with me, because it won't wash.
While there are indeed Bullshit Artists out there who waffle about Wars which they never ever attended...; I'm not one of them.
In 1982, a 2nd AIF patient of mine died of Septicaemia from the Bullet which went through his bent Knee in 1941, when a passing Japanese Air-Gunner shot him off his Dispatch Rider's ("Don-R's") Motorcycle, in Malaya in 1942...; it never ever healed, and he'd been doing Dressings on the Entrance & Exit Wounds for FORTY bloody YEARS, and I nursed him when he came in for about the 29th attempt to probe & clean & debride the Wound Channel from his Outer lower Thigh through the Knee & out his Inner upper Shin..., under a General Anaesthetic. Cardiac Arrest got him 2 days post-op.
I've nursed Gallipoli Veterans who still despised Winston Churchill for sending them to invade Turkey, comparing notes with the blokes whom he'd marooned on Greece & Crete with no Air Cover....
I got paid to be trained to pick up and try to heal the scattered shattered battered quivering bloody remains of a whole lot of Waaauugh(!)s, Pilgrim - and yours was but one of them.
So, get in line, Digger ; and take it easy !
But as a bare start, you might just(ifiably ?) try restraining yourself from talking garbage at one of the very bloody few Australian Civilians who was brought up to actually give a Shit, about what happened during your little Waaauugh(!) in French Indochina/Southeast Asia.
Consider yourself,
Disss-MISSSed !
Take it easy...
Such is Life.
;-p
Ciao !
A very poor lecture. Dull and boring, like he’s reading from parts of a text book he copied. Offers nothing new nor any insight.
The entire intro was unnecessary and could've been shortened to a few sentences.
The UK is an ex power in the world.
Sooner we realise that a nation better off we'll be.
Spending millions on aircraft carriers to project power is stupid and self defeating,
We're a small nation and need to reflect that in our outlook.
We don't own the seas anymore.
We're not even part of the biggest trading block on the planet anymore because we're a mad self defeating nation.
Not a lot of hope for us to be honest.
Luv and Peace.
You'd be surprised how many countries have aircraft carriers.
Democratic Socialism , Socialism , Facism , Communism , would love for someone here to explain to me how it is anyone can think there is a difference !!
McMillan, the narrator describes him as a Soft left type ,again more misuse of words , more convenient wordsmithing !
"1955 Sth VN turned to the US for military support..." NOT TRUE. The US had actively controlled well berfore that. It in fact financed 80% the war effort before the fall of Dien Bien Phu, it provided entire air power since 1945. A catholic priest D'Argenlieu Vietnamised the French stooge Annam Army in 1952 call Nationalist Army. 1954-56 the leaderships of this "Nationalis Army" were assassined, terrorised... by another US catholic stooge Ngo Dinh Diem who in turn was assassined by another stooge ... All others were the US compradors. "turned to the US for support" . What sens of humour.
I mean South Vietnam didn't exist until 1955.
They are murderers