UPDATE: We've queued up the removal of a small section of this video referencing the use of USB sticks for the storage in Ubiquiti's NVR lineup. While they did previously use USB sticks for storage, they've since rectified this issue by switching to more durable eMMC storage, so this is no longer a concern on new units!
I mean, you said "They have done silly things in the past... like..." So not really even wrong. It's true that they did do that. So I'm not even mad. But I have seen the new building setup and how much Unifi stuff is in there, so I'm sure you want to keep them happy right now :D
@Marauder-q2v Speaking of ISP routers, I feel like they've gotten a lot better lately. I switched to ATT Fiber about a year ago and haven't had any drops or disconnects caused by the router yet. Totally free too since it's not even included in my payments (or else I'd buy my own)
This makes me think, i would love to see a "How to properly configure internet" video, like show us all the options, what stuff you actually need to avoid using the isp crappy router, basically what we need to have a good internet for every budget so we don't have to use the isp box!
This would be good, especially explaining the modem side for cable internet and the media converter side for fiber optic. I was lucky to have a networking guru mentor at one of my old jobs (and also have a Computer Science degree and work in software) so I've had my home internet setup rock solid for years, but this would definitely help others. Talk about removable SFPs and getting MAC address of modems whitelisted by ISPs and etc, and which ISPs allow this and which are pricks about it.
I feel like it could be a series of good / better / best practices and what to configure inside.. and common mistakes / why that is a mistake to leave ports open on the router.. and how to get around that for remote desktop use.. (zerotier or mulitple other vpn services) And the price points for what you need and to look out for
It would be cool to get a video explaining different ubiquity products, Cloudkey, Cloud Gateway, Security Gateway, Dream Machine, etc. Sometimes I feel confuse when I need to buy one or the other. Especially when life used to be just a Cisco firewall plus a switch, and now it might be a USG, CloudKey, Switch, PoE Switch, etc. Or just a Dream Machine plus Switch, or some other combination.
That would be timely. I’ve just started looking at the lower-end ubiquity gear to replace a wireless router, and to mesh down to a barn at the far end of a property.
So excited for the Cloud Gateway Ultra Pro Max LR+ to come out 1 month after this for $50 less, and for Ubiquiti to EOL this prematurely as a result of the new version taking the sales. Thanks Ubiquiti! /s
Bought the Cloud Gateway ULTRA a few months ago and NOW they release the Cloud Gateway MAX. (Cloud Gateway Ultra does not contain any 2.5G LAN/WAN ports). I would've definitely spent the extra $70 to buy the Cloud Gateway Max.
I was within the last few days of my return window when it was released out of nowhere. Didn’t want to go throughout the trouble of return….. Still kept the ultra….. price from local store inkl tax is double when comparing ultra to max. So not a super sweet deal Apx 140vs280 euro
I still bought the Ultra over the Max. Sure the 2.5 ports are nice, but it has 1 gig less RAM and you're paying a fair bit for features that you may not need or want. Like the surveillance and Protect stuff that only works with Ubiquiti's products. I don't like being locked in. If you need 2.5, totally get this, but realistically many don't actually need that and the Ultra is way more affordable. Almost half the price basically. Edit. I appear to be unable to respond here, but yes the Cloud Gateway Max (UCG-Max) has 3GB. The Gateway Max (UXG-Max) has 2GB. They are the same price. I thought this was for the UXG. So yeah the UCG does have 3GB.
These are running crazy hot. At idle you have 80+ celsius cpu temperature. I sent mine back. Somehow all youtubers fails to mention this. Its really uncomfortable to touch. Once you get all the 2.5Gb NIC’s going with ssd and camera recording, its roasting!! Also not healthy for the SSD in long run.
Well that's good to know and I appreciate your input about that. So the bottom line is if I did decide to buy this router I just need to make sure I have a habit in a well AC cooled room. Maybe even a small fan aimed at it if the sucker runs like a champ as far as its functionality goes especially with basic internet and full 2.5 GB real bandwidth consistently on every port and it handles my Plex Media Server Like A boss, I've got no problem accommodating that
These chips are designed to run at these temperatures. Also surface temperature =/= actual temperature inside. Just put it in a decently cooled place and you're fine. It's a 2.5G router, it's going to have higher heat, especially when you consider the form factor. If you do run into issues then file for RMA. Not sure what the big deal is here.
@@Bob_Smith19 that's now how it works at all lol. There are many electronics hot to the touch... it's all about the thermal design The heat dissipation is working -- heat is transferring to the exterior case and the case will get hot. You only need to concern yourself with where you put it. There are also regulations for how hot exterior surfaces can get, and UI definitely has to abide by those. I would trust that more than some random 'it's hot to the touch' opinion with 0 factual information. Do you have this same concern for large gateways in server rooms running hot that have A/C on blasting 24/7? But somehow these last years and years before needing to be replaced? Would also be curious to know what these other options are.
Jakes is discovering how professional product pallets work. Everything is optional, comes as a seperate sales item, with individual packaging and in the end is more expensive than already inlcuding every accesorry and not using them, just because of handling, packaging and greedcost.
6:10 OMG I just found out about this a week ago! They didn’t email me or anything. I had one die October 2022. I opened a support ticket and they replaced it though. So, props UniFi! Edit: for anyone unaware (like I was) they added a 1 year extension to the warranty because of this issue with USB Flash drives dying.
Ubiquiti has had great hardware for some time, so long as your whole infrastructure is compatible. The hold up for me has always been the fact that Protect requires Ubiquiti branded cameras, and replacing my cameras is out of the question. Now that they're planning to add ONVIF camera support the Cloud Gateway Max is the easy choice for a home user.
I’ve had gigabit for years at home and realized that even with 50+ devices and 7 people we just don’t need it. Downgraded to 300/300 and no one has even noticed. Now paying $30 a month.
This me. I at most have 2 TVs streaming, 2 phones and a desktop. My 400/20 is more than enough for me. I also have a 1.2tb cap so the extra speed just means I will hit my cap sooner.
I'd definitely love to have gigabit (at at least symmetrical fiber) for my Jellyfin server when accessing it outside my network but yeah otherwise my 450 down has been more than enough fora long time
i pay $20 for 1000/400 and would not downgrade.. waiting for 2G to be offered for 30$ then il upgrade. Clearly nobody is playing modern games in your house or use torrents if your happy with your speed....
Got one of these a few weeks ago. It had the unexpected upside of improving the performance of my non-UniFi mesh WiFi which is now no longer routing. Probably because the underpowered TP-link cpu isn’t overloaded anymore.
I do like that the security key thing is finally implemented on all devices: APs, routers, cameras, doorbell thing. I lost about 5 keys in a few months, but I still have several. The old round thingy was very bad.
I'm happy you guys made a video about this, I've just purchased one a couple of weeks ago, and it was so stressfull making the ubiquity jump at this starting point.
My edgerouter x fully handles my gigabit connection with ease and is rocksolid stable. And you can get them on sale for $40 or less. Also made by Ubiquiti. Plus it has PoE on some ports.
@@chievo72 the edge router x doesn't have Wifi, however you still can use it as a ethernet backhaul, heck you can use any router as an ethernet backhaul if configured properly even ISP routers. You need to set one router as DHCP server and the other as a relay using the internet router as a gateway or have it act as a normal switch on the network. You can do the same with WiFi but the handshake between devices is a pain. You just need to set up the SSID as the same on all routers, same password and same channel (for better handshakes and switch overs) but using different OEM WiFi routers in this set up won't be a seamless experience when doing video calls or audio calls over WiFi.
I switched since you will full be on the ubiquity system which has tons of nice features. As well you don't need a computer running 24/7 or a cloud key to get stats.
i want this from ubiquiti: - drop test upto 80 meters - freefall test upto 130 meters - mil-std-810h specification (especially gunfire shock, pyroshock, rail impact and multi-exciter test) - ingress protection at least to ip64 but ip68 preferred (cable glands and powercon connectors go a long way) - 100mbit or 10mbit is enough for all and maybe wifi 802.11bgn - mayb put on a 100gbit qsfp28 for uplink - rack mountable with shock absorbing silents - lcd display on 4 sides for easy access non-backlit - poe on 15watt optionally for my led arsenal cheers bruv ❣
At 10:40 is it not the case you have IDS enabled as the specs say around 1.5Gbps with that enabled which would make sense with the results you are getting?
I watch most LTT vidz. Just checked the price of the device in Australia. The price is between 480 and 600 bucks. No idea why. 200 US does not convert to 600 AUD.
nice to see small devices coming out. Thanks for the review as will add to my list for other people that ask me for something for a home network. I recently got fiber in my rural area of north Florida but one needs to think and plan before one buys. I waited for the UDM Pro SE as desired a small system with NVR and POE in one box. added two Flex switches so have access points and two Cameras so far. As have a small farm and desire to have WiFi coverage and Camera covering my Gate with an Nano Beam 5AC and aG5 or G5 Pro camera with solar power to give me peace of mind. Will be growing the remote at the gate that is 1000ft from home and the main network. as a retired Tech from the phone industry in the 2004 time I have a fair amount of experience
I received the CGM two weeks ago and I have now spent my entire life savings on Ubiquity gear. My plan was not order anything else after the U6 Pro and some switches. The Unifi POE injector for the U6 Pro is $8. NO regrets. There are plenty of printable trays and for sale on Ebay. Heat and those are possibly questionable and I have decided to wait. I'm waiting on the tray release, but it will probably sell out quick. Never thought I would use protect. Received my cameras yesterday. You can use a 4tb drive too.
I just set mine up last week and love it. I did not realize the non-drive option does not come with a tray, so thank you for that nugget. It is good to know before I get a drive and do that configuration. It's a Great video, and I will recommend it to those looking to up their home wifi game or are interested in ubiquity but afraid of the price.
Friend of mine just ordered one of these and is waiting for it to arrive. He's pairing it with a U6+ WAP. Hopefully we'll be setting it up this weekend.
I know you love Ubiquiti, but I really appreciate a true thoughts review. Being that I watch all LTT's content for info\entertainment, I was really expecting a love piece.
Ubiquiti requires a contract with all RUclipsrs receiving their products for “review” that allows Ubiquiti to review and stipulate changes to videos before they can be published, so you’re not going to get any “true thoughts” on Ubiquiti products from a RUclipsr.
The lack of this product is why I left the Ubiquiti ecosystem about 18 months ago. I was on an old crusty USG but couldn't use any of the newer features they've added since that came out in, what? 2016? Earlier? That thing ran on a single core 300mhz MIPS CPU. They added the IPS and IDS but it dropped the throughput to something like 40mbit. I've got gig fiber, and with the features turned off, it could do it fine, but I couldn't do anything more. The only option they afforded me was spending $600+ on a 'pro' multi-port device that I didn't need, or a Dream Machine, that the extra AP would do me no good because the device sat in the corner of my basement. I was pining for an updated USG for years and finally said 'enough is enough' and built an OPNSense box on an N100 with 4x 2.5g ports on it for about $200 total. It's killer and lets me do everything i want to do and more, and no longer had to deal with the mDNS bug in wifi6 APs not allowing bonjour/airprint to work on them.
For 1Gbps my EdgeRouter X with hwnat enabled uses like 1% CPU to get full speed so yeah it just depends on what you want to do. Personally all the "security" features are pretty worthless in my opinion on most home/small business routers and its not worth the CPU processing hit vs building a more powerful box and using something like untangle.
@@jermwerty Yeah, it was just so much frustration to have them show off all the new high end routers for years and ignore multi-gig and the 'entry' router. How many places REALLY need more than a single WAN and single LAN port on a router? Not that many, and those that do are probably willing to pay for a low end Palo or Fortinet since Ubiquiti doesn't really have enterprise level support without an upcharge in cost. If your place of business needs either multiple LAN or multiple WAN, you probably also need proper enterprise support. It just seems like they're forgetting that the prosumer and SMB market is where their biggest niche is. They're trying to move further up the ladder to medium businesses and low end enterprise, but while doing so completely neglected the SMB and prosumers that don't want an all in one unit like the dream machine.
Because I got the UDMP instead lol. It can do more cameras, supports a HDD, and has 10Gb. I just wish Ubiquiti would make Multi-gig switches that made sense. I had to buy Yuah-Ley 10Gb and 2.5Gb/POE switches.
I've had a UCG Max up and running for almost a month now. So far I love it compared to my previous EdgeRouter with lots of band-aids. I'll run out of 2.5Gbps ports sooner rather than later, but at least for the rest of this year it's all good.
i bought the cloud gateway ultra version of that thing as i got a cloudkey to run the cameras and honestly couldn't be happier with it. The hardware is top class and works amazing. My only gripe is with my ISP being assholes who force the use of their router, thankfully got that in passthrough type mode and network is amazing!!
Man, wish they had this. Currently using a UDM Pro, and it took them so long just to add a PoE switch inside of that. and now they've finally built a real complete package.
As a Network Specialist it would be nice to see more about how you're running the "WAN" setup since it vastly affects throughput. For example IPv6 not needing NAT can lead to the CPU being able to handle much faster throughputs, TCP vs UDP also GREATLY affects speedtest results, are there a number of firewall/filter rules that you're using etc. I'd also be curious to see a review on some of the up-and-comers like MikroTik who are breaking into the Market with their extensively granular routers that are becoming more accessible for the advanced home user or small business with the support of IT.
While not a valid upgrade for my current cloudkey+ setup , this would be something I will recommend to friends who are interested in beefing up there home network and/or want to setup a home camera system. Now if that switch supported POE+ it would 11/10 for me.
Picked up the no storage model the day it released along with a U6 Pro AP and a flex mini switch. This was to replace my Sonicwall TZ500 firewall, Netgear Orbi APs, and an unmanaged switch. Hell of a firewall for $200, I'm extremely happy with my upgrade.
Been running mine since the release of the "no storage" option. Been pretty happy with it so far. Was previously running a USG-PRO-4 so this was a nice, cheap upgrade. My one complaint is this little guy runs pretty hot and I was a little concerned about thermals, so I flipped it upside down and slapped some stepper-motor heatsinks to the bottom and it's helped quite a bit.
Wish more suppliers did this, perfect setup for a 2gb fibre. I think most people need a switch, I have lost track over how many customers issues I have fixed with just a cheap switch added to their setup.
"I don't see why you couldn't put a bigger drive in it." This was the exact sentiment I had with the Cloud Key Gen2+. Grabbed an external E-SATA enclosure, got a female to male SATA cable, then a female SATA to eSATA cable, threw a 10TB drive in it, and now I have ~100 days of camera retention with G5 pro and 2 G5s.
The main purpose of this device via actually for home users with 1gb service. As well they don't have a server rack and want to use the ubiquity eco system. You would need to buy a $380 dream pro or $200 dream router to get everything this has.
It's pretty good value for what it offers, even without storage and wifi. This product is also aimed at people that have outgrown the all-in-routers and may already have APs and are just looking to upgrade their router.
I've been running my Cloud Gateway Max for a couple weeks now and have been really liking it. For my unique usecase of running it on a moving vehicle, having SSD storage is greeat. One thing to be aware of if you are running cameras is the capacity is pretty low. If you have 5 of their 4k cameras you are pretty much at capacity.
@@SilenceGProd not storage--processing. Regardless of the amount of storage, the Unifi consoles can only handle the processing for so many cameras. The dream machines can handle more.
Would love to see a complete home network build with this thing. I've been wanting to upgrade my network to two U7 Pros but the missing piece is a reasonably priced 2.5Gb PoE network switch.
A good replacement for those still on the Unifi Security Gateway. Something I may pick up in the near future. If they open up the Unifi protect to onvif cameras like I saw somewhere else then that'd be icing on the cake.
I have been using Unifi Security Gateway + Unifi 8 port Switch with PoE that I run my APs on. Then I have a raspberry pi 4 with a local install of unifi so that I don't have to use the cloud crap. Few issues in the first 3-5 years but rock solid with no crashes in 2 years now.
I just ordered one of these, with 3 U7 Pros. I only have 1Gb internet so I went with a couple Lite 8 POE switches. Mainly because I couldn’t justify the $400 for their entry level POE 2.5Gb switches. I did get a POE injector for the one by the gateway though so that one will have 2.5Gb. If the price point on 2.5Gb equipment comes down I’ll probably pull the trigger and go full 2.5Gb later on. I agree if this gateway had just one POE+ port on it, it would honestly throw it over the edge. I would even say it could be worth an extra $50. Considering I think I paid $30 for a POE+ injector, and I’d be willing to pay the extra for the convenience and simplification.
Would love to see how to create a setup with one of these! Home setup and/or small office, with WiFi access points dotted around (and a surveillance camera or two)
only reason to choose a UDM-SE is the built in POE Switch. A POE Switch of the same size plus the UCG-Max is just as if not more expesive, and you'll probably get a better experience from the SE. That being said, the small form factor is great... EDIT: i mean a managed Unifi switch, i know cheaper swiches can be had for less.
I’ve been looking at this. Apartment has gigabit, but no real room for a rack, and already manage a house with a full ubiquiti setup, so a single app managing both will be helpful. The m.2 expansion option is attractive to me because I may be interested in 1 or 2 protect cameras, maybe a doorbell, but at times of this publishing there isn’t any availability for the sleds.
Yes! Buy Ubiquiti! The founder, Robert Pera, has to pay his Memphis Grizzlies players massive salaries. Very magnanimous of you Vancouver guys to support them!
Love this thing. Have one installed at my second house and it’s letting me squeeze an extra couple hundred megs out of my Google fiber 1 gig plan (detecting the fiber jack as 2.5 gig and seeing 1140 mbps up and down)
This is the perfect upgrade for my UI Security Gateway and I wouldn't need to run the UI console in a VM anymore. I'd be buying one of these right now if it had POE+ built into the 4 port switch. Without the POE+, I'll just get a Dream Machine for a little more money. The DM is faster and can take 3.5" drives.
The lack of POE is maybe the only deal breaker on this. I've got one already that has SFP so far less of a dealbreaker. If I were gonna get it, I'd get the 512GB given the price is reasonable enough. More features than I anticipated for this price but I really like it. A good short stack option for those who are not homelab types but want more than a nice router.
They made people wait for years for an upgrade to the USG to the point where people left Then, they bring out so many replacement devices with crossover functionality in a short period of time getting people p*ssed off because your device you bought after years of neglect gets superseded so quickly I remember when manufacturers would tell people when they were going to be releasing a new device to stop their customers from suffering buyers' remorse So they will be releasing an updated model next week with PoE? Their product line is becoming fragmented to the point of being confusing when trying to assess what features are supported in what devices, which makes future proofing difficult, and customers believe some future proofing is very important
Can you do a video on ASUS's deceptive RT-BE88U and RT-BE86U Products? They're both advertising "WiFI 7" while being devoid of the 6GHz radio which is... required for WiFi 7. They don't even support AXE (Wireless 6E) because that, again is 6 GHz.
I have a feeling that people are scared of how hot it runs for entirely wrong reasons. Just because it reaches temperatures that could boil water it does not mean that it will be able to set fire to your home. Your dust rabbits won't spontaneously start combusting. You can quite literally pour gasoline over it and it won't ignite, you need temperatures in the range of 200-300C for that to happen, and if you have gasoline vapour in your home you have significantly worse problems. Same goes with natural gas, you'd need to exceed temperatures well above 500 celcius for it to spontaneously ignite. Having something that is passively cooled and designed to run very hot means that the product is very unlikely to fail because of a faulty fan or something like that.
i don't know why i have the impulse to put the suggestion on this video in specific, but I want to see more videos on storage. (SATA HDD/SSD and M.2) It's kinda a space i rarely actually feel comfortable buying anything since i've been burnt a few times. (despite having a few different drives now, i don't feel i can recommend anything realistically and always know people that need new ones...)
I currently have an old PC setup as a PfSense router with an Unifi Switch and AP and the Unifi Controller on my TrueNas box. Would this be worth switching to? I'd like to see how robust the routing features are.
I have a similar setup, pfsense on a protectli, cisco poe+ switch and a couple of UAP 6, but my pc is the unifi controller. Would like to know how it compares to pfsense in routing and taking over the unifi controller.
If your setup is working fine then don't bother. From my experiences new Unifi devices are not perfectly stable in the first 1-2 years. Unifi runs just fine on a raspberry pi 4 (3 works too but is a bit slow) and you can use it as pi-hole at the same time...
I didnt meat anyone that selfhost pf/opnsense and willingly wanting to change, especially to Ubiquiti. Their ecosystem seems nice and work nice together,but their routers/firewalls are bare minimal (for the consumers only)
i wouldnt recommend 3D printing the SSD tray with lots of Camera recording it would heat up the drive and its doing this 24/7 where PCs doing normally have this write cycle. the tray is design to be a heatsink
they actually did censor it. there is probably a MAC address or token on screen that they cover with a gray box. you can see when he cancels the transfer there is a box on screen
Besides the temperature issues, does the gateway max handle multiple vlans well? The express has the option to set vlans but can't handle much vlans really. If you need more enterprisey features just get yourself a small chinese box with multiple 2.5gbit ports and put pf or opnsense on it and be happy. The only downside is of course no single pane of glass with the unifi controller.
I’ve had the 512gb cgm for a month, paired with a 16port Poe lite and 2 u6pros an older ac pro LR and adding a Swiss Army knife. I don’t have any complaints
UPDATE: We've queued up the removal of a small section of this video referencing the use of USB sticks for the storage in Ubiquiti's NVR lineup. While they did previously use USB sticks for storage, they've since rectified this issue by switching to more durable eMMC storage, so this is no longer a concern on new units!
hahahaha their pr guys got on you quick huh
I mean, you said "They have done silly things in the past... like..." So not really even wrong. It's true that they did do that. So I'm not even mad. But I have seen the new building setup and how much Unifi stuff is in there, so I'm sure you want to keep them happy right now :D
Isn't eMMC also crap, compared to proper SSD?
@@TomydiriumYes, in smart devices but on a router you don't need super fast storage generally
What is the difference between Cloud Gateway Max and Ultra?
Because i’m poor jake
I just use my ISP router because it was literally free
we*
@Marauder-q2v Speaking of ISP routers, I feel like they've gotten a lot better lately. I switched to ATT Fiber about a year ago and haven't had any drops or disconnects caused by the router yet. Totally free too since it's not even included in my payments (or else I'd buy my own)
@@Stardust51 yep, i use vodafone and my router can handle gigabit
@@prominerz6701can varify I also use Vodafone and have 1 gb down but up is kinda mid
This makes me think, i would love to see a "How to properly configure internet" video, like show us all the options, what stuff you actually need to avoid using the isp crappy router, basically what we need to have a good internet for every budget so we don't have to use the isp box!
This would be good, especially explaining the modem side for cable internet and the media converter side for fiber optic.
I was lucky to have a networking guru mentor at one of my old jobs (and also have a Computer Science degree and work in software) so I've had my home internet setup rock solid for years, but this would definitely help others.
Talk about removable SFPs and getting MAC address of modems whitelisted by ISPs and etc, and which ISPs allow this and which are pricks about it.
I feel like it could be a series of good / better / best practices and what to configure inside.. and common mistakes / why that is a mistake to leave ports open on the router.. and how to get around that for remote desktop use.. (zerotier or mulitple other vpn services) And the price points for what you need and to look out for
Snazzylabs has some good videos along these lines
It would be cool to get a video explaining different ubiquity products, Cloudkey, Cloud Gateway, Security Gateway, Dream Machine, etc. Sometimes I feel confuse when I need to buy one or the other. Especially when life used to be just a Cisco firewall plus a switch, and now it might be a USG, CloudKey, Switch, PoE Switch, etc. Or just a Dream Machine plus Switch, or some other combination.
I second this. When I first started looking into Ubiquiti I was quite confused as to the purpose of the Dream Machines
I agree. Jake host one!
That would be timely. I’ve just started looking at the lower-end ubiquity gear to replace a wireless router, and to mesh down to a barn at the far end of a property.
Honestly, pretty hard to keep up. If a video was made this week, it would be irrelevant by next year due to how quickly they push out new products.
@@spencergates5766 the dream machine line up is a more or less a in all in one product that's a jack of all trades but a master of none.
I'm sure ubiquiti will release a slightly better version in a couple months like they've done twice already this year.
And lock this device from Unifi Controller in 4 years when they mark it EOL
that is fine they can just have another sponsored video on shortcircuit again then 🤷♂
PRO MAX ULTRA SPECIAL EDITION
The Cloud Gateway ultra is perfect for people with 1Gb connections and no need for unifi protect/access/voice for less money.
how DARE they
So excited for the Cloud Gateway Ultra Pro Max LR+ to come out 1 month after this for $50 less, and for Ubiquiti to EOL this prematurely as a result of the new version taking the sales. Thanks Ubiquiti! /s
This made me laugh so hard
Poe++ Enterprise In-Wall Special Edition
Just to be 'that guy', it's 2.5Gb, not 2.5GB in the thumbnail.
youdidn'tseeanything.gif
I guess they fixed it, it says Gb now.
Hey Look it's "that guy"
hey that guy, great lookin' out!
I think they fixed it already. Looks correct to me.
Bought the Cloud Gateway ULTRA a few months ago and NOW they release the Cloud Gateway MAX. (Cloud Gateway Ultra does not contain any 2.5G LAN/WAN ports). I would've definitely spent the extra $70 to buy the Cloud Gateway Max.
I feel you. I got the gateway max and then they released this a few months later.
Same. Shit hurts
I was within the last few days of my return window when it was released out of nowhere.
Didn’t want to go throughout the trouble of return…..
Still kept the ultra….. price from local store inkl tax is double when comparing ultra to max.
So not a super sweet deal
Apx 140vs280 euro
I still bought the Ultra over the Max. Sure the 2.5 ports are nice, but it has 1 gig less RAM and you're paying a fair bit for features that you may not need or want. Like the surveillance and Protect stuff that only works with Ubiquiti's products. I don't like being locked in.
If you need 2.5, totally get this, but realistically many don't actually need that and the Ultra is way more affordable. Almost half the price basically.
Edit. I appear to be unable to respond here, but yes the Cloud Gateway Max (UCG-Max) has 3GB. The Gateway Max (UXG-Max) has 2GB. They are the same price. I thought this was for the UXG. So yeah the UCG does have 3GB.
@@lemster101 it has 1GB less ram? Is that in the specs?
Update: I looked up each of their specs....they both have 3GB RAM.
just got to give props for whoever did the editing for the pulse way logo on the switch, well done
These are running crazy hot. At idle you have 80+ celsius cpu temperature. I sent mine back. Somehow all youtubers fails to mention this. Its really uncomfortable to touch. Once you get all the 2.5Gb NIC’s going with ssd and camera recording, its roasting!! Also not healthy for the SSD in long run.
Well that's good to know and I appreciate your input about that. So the bottom line is if I did decide to buy this router I just need to make sure I have a habit in a well AC cooled room. Maybe even a small fan aimed at it if the sucker runs like a champ as far as its functionality goes especially with basic internet and full 2.5 GB real bandwidth consistently on every port and it handles my Plex Media Server Like A boss, I've got no problem accommodating that
These chips are designed to run at these temperatures. Also surface temperature =/= actual temperature inside. Just put it in a decently cooled place and you're fine. It's a 2.5G router, it's going to have higher heat, especially when you consider the form factor. If you do run into issues then file for RMA. Not sure what the big deal is here.
@@yahzeefIf it’s to hot to touch it’s not going to last. There are other options that run cool. Putting up w/ high temps is a fools errand.
@@Bob_Smith19 that's now how it works at all lol. There are many electronics hot to the touch... it's all about the thermal design
The heat dissipation is working -- heat is transferring to the exterior case and the case will get hot. You only need to concern yourself with where you put it. There are also regulations for how hot exterior surfaces can get, and UI definitely has to abide by those. I would trust that more than some random 'it's hot to the touch' opinion with 0 factual information.
Do you have this same concern for large gateways in server rooms running hot that have A/C on blasting 24/7? But somehow these last years and years before needing to be replaced?
Would also be curious to know what these other options are.
That's how passive cooling works .....
Note to Editor: love what you're doing with the portal edit at 1:15!
Jakes is discovering how professional product pallets work.
Everything is optional, comes as a seperate sales item, with individual packaging and in the end is more expensive than already inlcuding every accesorry and not using them, just because of handling, packaging and greedcost.
Thank you Editor for that awesome Portal Box joke at the beginning, i love the Portal games so much!
6:10 OMG I just found out about this a week ago! They didn’t email me or anything. I had one die October 2022. I opened a support ticket and they replaced it though. So, props UniFi!
Edit: for anyone unaware (like I was) they added a 1 year extension to the warranty because of this issue with USB Flash drives dying.
Because some other brands don't decide that the stuff you bought, for less, is now outdated and can't be used anymore. Thats why
I have a USG3 that works with the latest controller. What you talkin bout?
Ubiquiti has had great hardware for some time, so long as your whole infrastructure is compatible. The hold up for me has always been the fact that Protect requires Ubiquiti branded cameras, and replacing my cameras is out of the question. Now that they're planning to add ONVIF camera support the Cloud Gateway Max is the easy choice for a home user.
the editing is fire on this one, i like it!
What the f. Thoses special vfx (intro ?? Portal ?!) are so cooool
I’ve had gigabit for years at home and realized that even with 50+ devices and 7 people we just don’t need it. Downgraded to 300/300 and no one has even noticed. Now paying $30 a month.
This me. I at most have 2 TVs streaming, 2 phones and a desktop. My 400/20 is more than enough for me. I also have a 1.2tb cap so the extra speed just means I will hit my cap sooner.
I'd definitely love to have gigabit (at at least symmetrical fiber) for my Jellyfin server when accessing it outside my network but yeah otherwise my 450 down has been more than enough fora long time
i pay $20 for 1000/400 and would not downgrade.. waiting for 2G to be offered for 30$ then il upgrade. Clearly nobody is playing modern games in your house or use torrents if your happy with your speed....
You are paying $30 for 300/300? That seems like theft to me. I'm getting 2000/1000 for $19.5 (converted) per month (in Eastern Europe)
If it's still fiber no one will notice.
Got one of these a few weeks ago. It had the unexpected upside of improving the performance of my non-UniFi mesh WiFi which is now no longer routing. Probably because the underpowered TP-link cpu isn’t overloaded anymore.
I’ve deployed a couple Cloud Gateway Ultras recently.. no 2.5G or Protect, but is a great product!
I already have the cloud gateway ultra and im happy
Because TP LINK has an 8 port 2.5Gbps switch for $114 at Microcenter. Just bought 2 of them and they are amazing.
I do like that the security key thing is finally implemented on all devices: APs, routers, cameras, doorbell thing. I lost about 5 keys in a few months, but I still have several. The old round thingy was very bad.
Bought and installed 2 weeks ago!! It is awesome. Running two U7 Pro APs and a Express in mesh-mode.
how are you powering the APs? that's the thing holding me back right now, the 2.5Gb switches with PoE are way too expensive
@@ejbarrios PoE+ injectors. Doesn’t look great but functions at 2.5Gb.
I'm happy you guys made a video about this, I've just purchased one a couple of weeks ago, and it was so stressfull making the ubiquity jump at this starting point.
That random portal animation is amazing.
I have one of these and run dual WAN. It's rock solid. Gets pretty warm, but has been great. We have a few cameras and a doorbell hooked up
My edgerouter x fully handles my gigabit connection with ease and is rocksolid stable. And you can get them on sale for $40 or less. Also made by Ubiquiti. Plus it has PoE on some ports.
Same here. Will be a looooong time before I feel the need to pay for 2.5...
Does the edgerouter have wifi with mesh and backhaul? I’m looking to replace my asus stuff.
@@chievo72 the edge router x doesn't have Wifi, however you still can use it as a ethernet backhaul, heck you can use any router as an ethernet backhaul if configured properly even ISP routers. You need to set one router as DHCP server and the other as a relay using the internet router as a gateway or have it act as a normal switch on the network. You can do the same with WiFi but the handshake between devices is a pain. You just need to set up the SSID as the same on all routers, same password and same channel (for better handshakes and switch overs) but using different OEM WiFi routers in this set up won't be a seamless experience when doing video calls or audio calls over WiFi.
@@chievo72 no it's only a router. I'd recommend you buy the new Wifi 7 Access Points from Ubiquiti.
I switched since you will full be on the ubiquity system which has tons of nice features. As well you don't need a computer running 24/7 or a cloud key to get stats.
i want this from ubiquiti:
- drop test upto 80 meters
- freefall test upto 130 meters
- mil-std-810h specification (especially gunfire shock, pyroshock, rail impact and multi-exciter test)
- ingress protection at least to ip64 but ip68 preferred (cable glands and powercon connectors go a long way)
- 100mbit or 10mbit is enough for all and maybe wifi 802.11bgn
- mayb put on a 100gbit qsfp28 for uplink
- rack mountable with shock absorbing silents
- lcd display on 4 sides for easy access non-backlit
- poe on 15watt optionally for my led arsenal
cheers bruv ❣
this isn't a suggestion. It's as potent as Newton's laws
At 10:40 is it not the case you have IDS enabled as the specs say around 1.5Gbps with that enabled which would make sense with the results you are getting?
I watch most LTT vidz. Just checked the price of the device in Australia. The price is between 480 and 600 bucks. No idea why. 200 US does not convert to 600 AUD.
Looks like they pulled a Sony
australia tax
Same around here, Europe. I'd imagine it's cause it's not really on stock yet - least it isn't here. Only one shop with it as well - at $564.
The production quality of these videos actually makes me happy lol.
Keep doing what you're doing!
nice to see small devices coming out. Thanks for the review as will add to my list for other people that ask me for something for a home network. I recently got fiber in my rural area of north Florida but one needs to think and plan before one buys. I waited for the UDM Pro SE as desired a small system with NVR and POE in one box. added two Flex switches so have access points and two Cameras so far. As have a small farm and desire to have WiFi coverage and Camera covering my Gate with an Nano Beam 5AC and aG5 or G5 Pro camera with solar power to give me peace of mind. Will be growing the remote at the gate that is 1000ft from home and the main network. as a retired Tech from the phone industry in the 2004 time I have a fair amount of experience
The link in the description goes to the wrong product page - it goes to the "Gateway Max" and not the "Cloud Gateway Max". (UPDATE: They fixed it)
I think they fixed it.
fixed!
What's funny is I made that mistake when ordering myself. Accidentally purchased a Gateway Max instead of a Cloud Gateway Max.
I received the CGM two weeks ago and I have now spent my entire life savings on Ubiquity gear. My plan was not order anything else after the U6 Pro and some switches. The Unifi POE injector for the U6 Pro is $8. NO regrets. There are plenty of printable trays and for sale on Ebay. Heat and those are possibly questionable and I have decided to wait. I'm waiting on the tray release, but it will probably sell out quick. Never thought I would use protect. Received my cameras yesterday.
You can use a 4tb drive too.
I just set mine up last week and love it. I did not realize the non-drive option does not come with a tray, so thank you for that nugget. It is good to know before I get a drive and do that configuration. It's a Great video, and I will recommend it to those looking to up their home wifi game or are interested in ubiquity but afraid of the price.
Yeah…and if you want to add the tray later, it’s $20+$10 shipping. So the 512Gb model is the logical choice at only $40 more.
I always look forward to Ubiquiti reviews with jake he is one of the reasons I switched my home network to Ubiquiti. Keep it up bro!!
Friend of mine just ordered one of these and is waiting for it to arrive. He's pairing it with a U6+ WAP. Hopefully we'll be setting it up this weekend.
I know you love Ubiquiti, but I really appreciate a true thoughts review. Being that I watch all LTT's content for info\entertainment, I was really expecting a love piece.
Ubiquiti requires a contract with all RUclipsrs receiving their products for “review” that allows Ubiquiti to review and stipulate changes to videos before they can be published, so you’re not going to get any “true thoughts” on Ubiquiti products from a RUclipsr.
The lack of this product is why I left the Ubiquiti ecosystem about 18 months ago. I was on an old crusty USG but couldn't use any of the newer features they've added since that came out in, what? 2016? Earlier? That thing ran on a single core 300mhz MIPS CPU. They added the IPS and IDS but it dropped the throughput to something like 40mbit. I've got gig fiber, and with the features turned off, it could do it fine, but I couldn't do anything more. The only option they afforded me was spending $600+ on a 'pro' multi-port device that I didn't need, or a Dream Machine, that the extra AP would do me no good because the device sat in the corner of my basement. I was pining for an updated USG for years and finally said 'enough is enough' and built an OPNSense box on an N100 with 4x 2.5g ports on it for about $200 total. It's killer and lets me do everything i want to do and more, and no longer had to deal with the mDNS bug in wifi6 APs not allowing bonjour/airprint to work on them.
For 1Gbps my EdgeRouter X with hwnat enabled uses like 1% CPU to get full speed so yeah it just depends on what you want to do. Personally all the "security" features are pretty worthless in my opinion on most home/small business routers and its not worth the CPU processing hit vs building a more powerful box and using something like untangle.
@@jermwerty Yeah, it was just so much frustration to have them show off all the new high end routers for years and ignore multi-gig and the 'entry' router. How many places REALLY need more than a single WAN and single LAN port on a router? Not that many, and those that do are probably willing to pay for a low end Palo or Fortinet since Ubiquiti doesn't really have enterprise level support without an upcharge in cost. If your place of business needs either multiple LAN or multiple WAN, you probably also need proper enterprise support. It just seems like they're forgetting that the prosumer and SMB market is where their biggest niche is. They're trying to move further up the ladder to medium businesses and low end enterprise, but while doing so completely neglected the SMB and prosumers that don't want an all in one unit like the dream machine.
Because I got the UDMP instead lol. It can do more cameras, supports a HDD, and has 10Gb. I just wish Ubiquiti would make Multi-gig switches that made sense. I had to buy Yuah-Ley 10Gb and 2.5Gb/POE switches.
I've had a UCG Max up and running for almost a month now. So far I love it compared to my previous EdgeRouter with lots of band-aids. I'll run out of 2.5Gbps ports sooner rather than later, but at least for the rest of this year it's all good.
i bought the cloud gateway ultra version of that thing as i got a cloudkey to run the cameras and honestly couldn't be happier with it. The hardware is top class and works amazing. My only gripe is with my ISP being assholes who force the use of their router, thankfully got that in passthrough type mode and network is amazing!!
Man, wish they had this. Currently using a UDM Pro, and it took them so long just to add a PoE switch inside of that. and now they've finally built a real complete package.
As a Network Specialist it would be nice to see more about how you're running the "WAN" setup since it vastly affects throughput. For example IPv6 not needing NAT can lead to the CPU being able to handle much faster throughputs, TCP vs UDP also GREATLY affects speedtest results, are there a number of firewall/filter rules that you're using etc.
I'd also be curious to see a review on some of the up-and-comers like MikroTik who are breaking into the Market with their extensively granular routers that are becoming more accessible for the advanced home user or small business with the support of IT.
I would love LTT to look into a video about what cool things you can do with 3d printers and tech like network rack mountes and wall mounts etc.
While not a valid upgrade for my current cloudkey+ setup , this would be something I will recommend to friends who are interested in beefing up there home network and/or want to setup a home camera system. Now if that switch supported POE+ it would 11/10 for me.
Picked up the no storage model the day it released along with a U6 Pro AP and a flex mini switch. This was to replace my Sonicwall TZ500 firewall, Netgear Orbi APs, and an unmanaged switch. Hell of a firewall for $200, I'm extremely happy with my upgrade.
Been running mine since the release of the "no storage" option. Been pretty happy with it so far. Was previously running a USG-PRO-4 so this was a nice, cheap upgrade. My one complaint is this little guy runs pretty hot and I was a little concerned about thermals, so I flipped it upside down and slapped some stepper-motor heatsinks to the bottom and it's helped quite a bit.
That was the best sponsor segway I've seen on the channel!
Wish more suppliers did this, perfect setup for a 2gb fibre. I think most people need a switch, I have lost track over how many customers issues I have fixed with just a cheap switch added to their setup.
I instantly ordered this thing the second it came available. Way more power efficient than my old dream machine pro 👌🏻. So you’re totally right!
"I don't see why you couldn't put a bigger drive in it."
This was the exact sentiment I had with the Cloud Key Gen2+. Grabbed an external E-SATA enclosure, got a female to male SATA cable, then a female SATA to eSATA cable, threw a 10TB drive in it, and now I have ~100 days of camera retention with G5 pro and 2 G5s.
The $200 price is for no storage, which is one of the main benefits of this device. And no WiFi so you still need more equipment to go along with it.
Compared to other consumer grade products, this is a decent entry way. Just look up wired NVRs, just doing NVR and they ain't cheap.
The main purpose of this device via actually for home users with 1gb service. As well they don't have a server rack and want to use the ubiquity eco system.
You would need to buy a $380 dream pro or $200 dream router to get everything this has.
It's pretty good value for what it offers, even without storage and wifi.
This product is also aimed at people that have outgrown the all-in-routers and may already have APs and are just looking to upgrade their router.
Literally got mine a few days ago to replace my CG Ultra. Paired it with a few G4 Instant cameras - perfect for my use case!
Huge props to the editor for the 1:17 Portal reference!
I got one of these last week and freaking love it. Instant unifi fanboy. Got the max phone too
FINALLY IVE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS VIDEO
I've been running my Cloud Gateway Max for a couple weeks now and have been really liking it. For my unique usecase of running it on a moving vehicle, having SSD storage is greeat. One thing to be aware of if you are running cameras is the capacity is pretty low. If you have 5 of their 4k cameras you are pretty much at capacity.
When you say 5 4K cameras are the max for how many hours of recording history are we talking and with what SSD capacity?
@@SilenceGProd not storage--processing. Regardless of the amount of storage, the Unifi consoles can only handle the processing for so many cameras. The dream machines can handle more.
Would love to see a complete home network build with this thing. I've been wanting to upgrade my network to two U7 Pros but the missing piece is a reasonably priced 2.5Gb PoE network switch.
A good replacement for those still on the Unifi Security Gateway.
Something I may pick up in the near future.
If they open up the Unifi protect to onvif cameras like I saw somewhere else then that'd be icing on the cake.
I have been using Unifi Security Gateway + Unifi 8 port Switch with PoE that I run my APs on. Then I have a raspberry pi 4 with a local install of unifi so that I don't have to use the cloud crap. Few issues in the first 3-5 years but rock solid with no crashes in 2 years now.
Great device... been using one for a little bit. Love the design and functionality.
I just ordered one of these, with 3 U7 Pros. I only have 1Gb internet so I went with a couple Lite 8 POE switches. Mainly because I couldn’t justify the $400 for their entry level POE 2.5Gb switches. I did get a POE injector for the one by the gateway though so that one will have 2.5Gb. If the price point on 2.5Gb equipment comes down I’ll probably pull the trigger and go full 2.5Gb later on.
I agree if this gateway had just one POE+ port on it, it would honestly throw it over the edge. I would even say it could be worth an extra $50. Considering I think I paid $30 for a POE+ injector, and I’d be willing to pay the extra for the convenience and simplification.
Looking slimmer Jake, nice work
Would love to see how to create a setup with one of these! Home setup and/or small office, with WiFi access points dotted around (and a surveillance camera or two)
Works great in a standard Ethernet WAN, but barely does gigabit with a PPPoE WAN. Hopefully the next firmwares will correct this.
only reason to choose a UDM-SE is the built in POE Switch. A POE Switch of the same size plus the UCG-Max is just as if not more expesive, and you'll probably get a better experience from the SE. That being said, the small form factor is great...
EDIT: i mean a managed Unifi switch, i know cheaper swiches can be had for less.
I’ve been looking at this. Apartment has gigabit, but no real room for a rack, and already manage a house with a full ubiquiti setup, so a single app managing both will be helpful.
The m.2 expansion option is attractive to me because I may be interested in 1 or 2 protect cameras, maybe a doorbell, but at times of this publishing there isn’t any availability for the sleds.
Awesome! Finally time to upgrade fom my old Ubiquity EdgeRouter. That one's UI always made me struggle :(
Yes! Buy Ubiquiti! The founder, Robert Pera, has to pay his Memphis Grizzlies players massive salaries. Very magnanimous of you Vancouver guys to support them!
Love this thing. Have one installed at my second house and it’s letting me squeeze an extra couple hundred megs out of my Google fiber 1 gig plan (detecting the fiber jack as 2.5 gig and seeing 1140 mbps up and down)
i've been looking for a 2.5 router for the longest. this is great
Thank you! A udm alternative that makes sense!!!
Just installed one and the 16 Poe switch. It seems awsome so far.
Ubiquiti are great at the price point, I’ve got the UDR and a U6+, really does bridge home setup with enterprise
3 portals, max has 3 letters, HALF LIFE 3 Portal 3 confirmed! 🎉
This is the perfect upgrade for my UI Security Gateway and I wouldn't need to run the UI console in a VM anymore. I'd be buying one of these right now if it had POE+ built into the 4 port switch. Without the POE+, I'll just get a Dream Machine for a little more money. The DM is faster and can take 3.5" drives.
Sadly its not, the thing has heat issues. I was hopeful and wanting to upgrade from my USG too but until its fixed, its a no go.
If I remember correctly, they stopped using USBs in the NVRs a couple of years ago.
1:16 god damn the portal looks soo cool
The lack of POE is maybe the only deal breaker on this. I've got one already that has SFP so far less of a dealbreaker.
If I were gonna get it, I'd get the 512GB given the price is reasonable enough. More features than I anticipated for this price but I really like it. A good short stack option for those who are not homelab types but want more than a nice router.
I got one 2 weeks ago and I love it. I only wish it had POE, at least one port
They made people wait for years for an upgrade to the USG to the point where people left
Then, they bring out so many replacement devices with crossover functionality in a short period of time getting people p*ssed off because your device you bought after years of neglect gets superseded so quickly
I remember when manufacturers would tell people when they were going to be releasing a new device to stop their customers from suffering buyers' remorse
So they will be releasing an updated model next week with PoE?
Their product line is becoming fragmented to the point of being confusing when trying to assess what features are supported in what devices, which makes future proofing difficult, and customers believe some future proofing is very important
Was just looking at the Cloud Gateway Max last week, but got the Ultra instead since we don't need NVR (or 2.5G LAN), but boy was it tempting!
Can you do a video on ASUS's deceptive
RT-BE88U and RT-BE86U Products?
They're both advertising "WiFI 7" while being devoid of the 6GHz radio which is... required for WiFi 7.
They don't even support AXE (Wireless 6E) because that, again is 6 GHz.
Yep I've got one of these, sold my Ultra for the Max. Now that the NVR part support ONVIF I'm going to use it.
What would be interesting to know is how its performance is when running Protect with say 2 cams and maybe Unifi Talk or connect combined.
7:35 editors making jake blush when he says cheeky
I have a feeling that people are scared of how hot it runs for entirely wrong reasons. Just because it reaches temperatures that could boil water it does not mean that it will be able to set fire to your home. Your dust rabbits won't spontaneously start combusting. You can quite literally pour gasoline over it and it won't ignite, you need temperatures in the range of 200-300C for that to happen, and if you have gasoline vapour in your home you have significantly worse problems. Same goes with natural gas, you'd need to exceed temperatures well above 500 celcius for it to spontaneously ignite.
Having something that is passively cooled and designed to run very hot means that the product is very unlikely to fail because of a faulty fan or something like that.
i don't know why i have the impulse to put the suggestion on this video in specific, but I want to see more videos on storage. (SATA HDD/SSD and M.2) It's kinda a space i rarely actually feel comfortable buying anything since i've been burnt a few times. (despite having a few different drives now, i don't feel i can recommend anything realistically and always know people that need new ones...)
I currently have an old PC setup as a PfSense router with an Unifi Switch and AP and the Unifi Controller on my TrueNas box. Would this be worth switching to? I'd like to see how robust the routing features are.
I have a similar setup, pfsense on a protectli, cisco poe+ switch and a couple of UAP 6, but my pc is the unifi controller.
Would like to know how it compares to pfsense in routing and taking over the unifi controller.
If your setup is working fine then don't bother. From my experiences new Unifi devices are not perfectly stable in the first 1-2 years. Unifi runs just fine on a raspberry pi 4 (3 works too but is a bit slow) and you can use it as pi-hole at the same time...
I didnt meat anyone that selfhost pf/opnsense and willingly wanting to change, especially to Ubiquiti.
Their ecosystem seems nice and work nice together,but their routers/firewalls are bare minimal (for the consumers only)
i wouldnt recommend 3D printing the SSD tray with lots of Camera recording it would heat up the drive and its doing this 24/7 where PCs doing normally have this write cycle. the tray is design to be a heatsink
The heat is still in the housing of the router
Dear editor: At 9:28, you censored Jakes phone, but not the screen recording shown. Just thought you'd like to know, lol.
they actually did censor it. there is probably a MAC address or token on screen that they cover with a gray box. you can see when he cancels the transfer there is a box on screen
Besides the temperature issues, does the gateway max handle multiple vlans well? The express has the option to set vlans but can't handle much vlans really. If you need more enterprisey features just get yourself a small chinese box with multiple 2.5gbit ports and put pf or opnsense on it and be happy. The only downside is of course no single pane of glass with the unifi controller.
I’ve had the 512gb cgm for a month, paired with a 16port Poe lite and 2 u6pros an older ac pro LR and adding a Swiss Army knife. I don’t have any complaints
LTT should do a comprehensive AP roundup of sorts.
I’m super happy with my 2 cloudkey gen 2’s and dream machine pro. I’m not sure wether this now replaces the CKG2?
I can't wait for your video where you do upgrade the storage to 30TBs. I wanna see that.
Ah, another nice Ubiquiti toy that no one can have BECAUSE EVERYTHING IS ALWAYS SOLD OUT.