Best iron i ever had was a RS 30w. Second best is the RS 20-50w variable i use now. Only problem ive had is finding the 6mm tips for it(thought i found some on amazon, turned out they were 4mm, but a few wraps of aluminum fixed that). Mainly use it to take things to bits, or fix a loose wire here and there, and it works beautifully, especially with 60/40. If i was making boards in a production setting, yeah Id break out the pace stand. But for simple hobby level touch touch put it on the stand, place another set of components, touch touch stuff, I got nothing but love for the crappy old school RS 'dumb'-irons.
Many years ago Dave and some of the EEVBlog forumers steered me towards JBC. Still haven't had to replace a single tip! One of the best purchases I ever made. Thanks guys!
Leo Curious probably PID basic and each parameter role (I dont need those, other might), PID implementation on a MCU (NOT arduino) and tuning PID parameter
3:10 This moment reminded me of an old story. Way-way back, I briefly worked as a production test and repair technician. There were several of us and since most of our time was spent with testing and fault finding and not soldering all day long, we didn't have personally assigned soldering stations, we just shared a few of them. This was fine, except when we all tried to use them at the same time. It was one such moment. There was one free station left but it was because it had a problem. The light came on but the tip didn't heat up. We were waiting for its replacement. Since all the other stations were in use, I was fiddling with the bad one and discovered that it had some intermittent contact problem and somehow I managed to get it working. Pleased with myself, I was waiting for it to fully heat up and I was getting ready for soldering. At that moment, the lead technician - let's call him "Nick" 😉- turned up and saw me at the "bad" soldering station. He walked up to me, snatched the iron out from the stand and with an all knowing smile he said: "You know this one is not working, right?" ...and to demonstrate the fact and be dramatic about the whole thing, he just pushed the business end of the iron into the palm of his other hand. He did it so unexpectedly and quickly that I didn't have time to say anything. By the time I did, I could hear this "ssssss" sound, soon folowed by the smell of burnt flesh. 😧 I think there was a lesson in that!
Same here. Just bought myself the Hakko. However, I had a knockoff newer technology unit and it blew itself up after 30 minutes. I'd rather solder a little more slowly than not at all.
the main reason for the differences shown in this video is the double heating capacity of the JBC's 135W heating element compared to the Weller and Hakko's 60W :} the "new technology" does not have THAT kind kind of advantage when compared to same wattage "old technology" irons.
I bought a Hakko FX-888 (with the temp dial) on your specific recommendation. I still have it, and use it. It remains the best iron I've ever used. No reason for me to change!
You've been talking a lot about soldering irons lately, what do you think about the recent contender (and much celebrated by many hobbyists at least) the TS-100 soldering iron?
Switch & Lever I have both the FX-888D and TS100. And I like the TS100 better. The only drawback is that it does not have a good stand. That is the only reason I still have the FX-888D on the bench.
Art Vandelay i dont think so but it uses external power supplies so the high voltage stuff is the problem oft whatever supplie you are using. Besides that its verry well made. Due to the direct heating design the lower part of the tip doesnt gets that hot but some sort of an raised edge in the top end of the handle to prevent your fingers from slipping on to the hot metal shaft would be nice. But that never happend to me using it.
At 12:30 when the JBC is used on the copper, it peaks at 25% power, or about 30w. There is a thermal gradient from the heating element to the sink and the Hakko's thermocouple is just too far upstream from the tip to measure an accurate temperature. It is tricky, but it is possible to do temperature compensation based on the power currently needed to maintain a given temperature. Something like this: a tip can maintain 240C with 2w power, right now we're pushing 10w to maintain 240C. That means our tip temp is lower than 240C, boost it according to a power curve. By far the easiest solution is to have the thermocouple as close to the tip as possible.
With some due respect, I'm still using the Weller WP25 that I bought in 1971, with high-quality Weller tips still available. 25 watts, no temp regulation, just a real soldering iron. Takes 5 minutes to reach temp, and you use the tip you need for that day's work. Used it 12 hours a day for 35 years, then occasionally for 5 or 6 hours/day for 20 years, and now just occcasionally for personal work because I'm retired. Still works like the day I bought it. I'm not buying some chinese made iron that'll break next year, when I've got one that works fine.
Your Iron is as good as it was decades ago and you have skills and experience. Younger people that just start in this field or a hobby, have new options. Chinese stuff ranges from cheap and bad, thought midrange and high end made for western brands. Because they are made in China too...
How much do the consumables cost for those high-end irons? I can get genuine Weller tips for $5 ea at Fry's. I assume those cartridges are a lot more expensive.
@@LBCAndrew That is fine as long as they hold up well. The advantages for the old-style with separate tips and heating elements is cost, since you only have to replace one or the other most of the time ($10-20 each). That also means you can afford to buy a wider variety of tips to play with. The down-side is you have to be careful around the fragile heating element, and replacing the element on the Hakko requires soldering (hope you have a second iron handy). The other downside being the older style tips like the FX-888D had looser tolerances to allow the heating element and tip to expand and contract freely, so the iron warms up slower (even if the Hakko's wattage was the same compared to Dave's JBC). Having the heating element and the tip integrated into a cartridge lets the iron heat up a lot faster. The downsides for the cartridges are all in the material science: rapid heating and cooling means they will wear out or crack faster if the element and the metal tip expand/contract at different rates, so R&D costs go up. The tips are more expensive. You can't afford as many of them so you may not have the right tip for the job. The knock-off cartridges are going to be cheaper, but they probably won't have the same amount of R&D behind them and they won't last as long. Just my 2 cents.
it's quite wasteful and this planet is full of trash. the advantages are minimal comparing same power heating elements but the company's profits are not marginal :}
For the big honking heat sinks or old radio chassis, use a 250w Weller soldering gun and a 10 gauge wire as a tip. Mr. Carlson has a video on that. I learned to solder with the soldering gun technology and the "old" style seems awesome to me still. Taught both my kids how to solder with little kits they built.
It's fine so long as you're not soldering things with large heat capacities or that you need a lot of quick power into. I've run into issues with the 888d on boards where the designer forgot thermal relief on ground contacts, and it struggles when you need a fine pitch tip for SMD work since the tip isn't well regulated.
The other thing is if you're not married to brand or brand rip-offs, there are units out there that pack WAY more for the dollar- say the KSGER 3.1, which uses t12 tips and can do most anything you ask of it- there are even 200 watt units out there that only ask 80 USD. I've had Hakos and Wellers (granted, all of my wellers were DOA even if they "felt" nice and solid with a giant transformer in the case) and the only thing that really justifies the price is the name, IMO. The tips are a different story though, legit Hako tips don't give a damn, and will just keep going, and going and going. Granted, I've not had the other big name (JBC), so I can't say. But the argument of value is an important one, and the sheer responsiveness of a cartridge system just can't be ignored. 'Older', non-cartridge systems still have use, and aren't worthless, but when you can get a cartridge system for the same price... Why? Aside from corporations, "liability" concerns and such.
It all depends on what you're using it for. If you're doing hobby projects and the occasional home repair then you really won't benefit from the newer style of irons, but if you're using it commercially or doing a lot of soldering then you may benefit from using the new style of irons. I'm personally very leery about the quality of the knock-off irons, especially the accuracy of the temperature.
I picked up a Hakko FX-888D. I absolutely love it. If I need more power for bigger connections, I use butane flame, anyway. It's never let me down, heats crazy quick (used to crappy pencil type and really really old gun type (bad electrical connectivity to the tip really hinders things...)), tip stays nice and clean (I always put it away with a glob of 60/40 on the end; no oxidation). Best $99 I spent on a tool.
When i don't have the 10 seconds to wait for my soldering iron to heat up, i definetaly don't have the time to solder. Not a professional though, i get why you'd want something like this if you switch on your iron a hundred times per day.
I solder 8-10 hours a day in a production environment with an FX-951 and I love it. In contrast, I use an $80 Radio Shack digital station at home with an iron similar to your 888D and I've never had any problem with it. If I had a choice, I prefer the 951 any day. The cost is the only drawback, but it's well worth it. I recommend saving for the best iron and skip the knock offs. At the end of the day, you'll be glad you did... Thanks Dave
I use the FX-951 at home and its just brilliant. The heat time and the auto-switching holder work great too. Just make sure you're not getting a knockoff. (Wasn't a fan of the FX-888D though.)
I've been watching this channel from the first day of dumpster diving and i absolutely love all the information, it just makes day to day life soo much easier
At 15:45 i think less power is no excuse for the Hakko, the led point bottom right on the display shows it wasn't even applying full power to the iron. If i recall correctly that decimal point represents weather or not the heater is on, and thus when blinking it's not on the whole time. I suspect the thermal resistance is the issue, the iron is blinking off because it's 'reached temperature' as far as where the temp sampled is concerned. A point of interest, i'm a hobbyist and had both of the exact same irons. For hobby use the JBC station is a bit pricey, but damn it's good. I sold the Hakko to reduce the cost of getting into the JBC.. I now have the JBC and TS100. With the exception of the stand setup i think i like the TS-100 even more than the Hakko, could use a little work on it's hand grip though.
Buying a knockoff is insanity, especially when for the same $ you can have a dependable Weller. I've used the old style professionally for years and the irons are decades old but work flawlessly on smd, cable harness and thru hole work. Especially good when you have another shift using your iron, the tips are cheap so the shop has plenty. Not going to argue the new is better but the old is FAR from obsolete.
Yeah, I'm quite happy with my Ungar that has multiple heating elements that screw into the same handle and pretty much the same PL113 tip on them, I use a 45W element most of the time, plugged into a box that'll cut that in half with a diode. Works well for me, though I don't do *any* surface-mount stuff.
The Echelon yeah a bunch are also pissed because they got some questionable quality. It’s a crap shoot if they work out of the box and then fail after a couple months. I researched for months before settling with the Hakko. From everything I’ve seen the T12 machines that aren’t high end are pretty garbage quality at the end of the day. I don’t want to wonder if I got the good ksger or the bad one. That’s why I bought hakko. Plus genuine vs aftermarket tips make a difference. If you buy cheap stuff, then don’t expect for it to last long.
Main problem of "old" tech are 900 series of hakko. They have bad design. Weller and ersa use same tech but deliver heat with no trouble. 900 tips are garbage with huge air gaps and high heat resistance. Genuine T12 are great, have copper core and low thermal resistance. Chine t12 are lottery. Easy test - set tip tp 200 c and put it in a cup of water. Good tip drops to 100c instantly. Bad one usually doesn't even boil water.
Conical of Chisel? noobs, the correct answer is slanted chisel... (not really, i like conical quite a bit and use that the most.. but when slanted chisel tip has just the right angle and girth, it is just... aahhh......)
13:38 How accurate are those temperatures? If the Hakko were a few degrees low and the JBC were a few degrees high, you'd see a big difference because you're so close to the melting point.
Metcal/OKI PS-900 is using induction, coil is in the handle, heating an alloy in the tip. I guess that would be considered direct drive, would probably mean simpler/cheaper tips too. It's about 200€ in the EU. Wonder how it compares to resistive irons.
The Metcal handpiece is so ergonomic. Truly like a pencil. Changing tips couldn’t be faster. Heatup is instant. And for production shops, nothing for your workers to dick around with. Tip dictates the temp. I have a TS100 as well... it’s excellent, but not in same league.
Around a decade ago, my old employer got bought out and closed down. I got a chance to get a lot of equipment at auction, and ended up selling a lot. I was always impressed by the Metcal stations, but as a hobbyist, the tips were inconvenient. They were AMAZING, but they were also calibrated fixed temp tips. A bit expensive, and you had to change out tips to change the temp. I sold the Metcal stations, and stuck with my Hakko 927 & 936s. Recently got a Chinesium hot air station, but hearing there's now affordable Chinese direct heat stations... That even Louis Rossman would take over a Hakko... I'm VERY tempted!
I use Metcal PS900 everyday and i'm very satisfy, especially when i need to be fast! The tip cost around 10/12 euro each, maybe the less expensive in this kind of tips
I recently got the JBC CD system to replace my old Weller WES51. Best money I have spent in a long time. Seriously. I never knew what I was missing until I got a nice system.
I have the FX-888D and I love it. My previous iron was part of my Kendal 852D++ (AKA One Hung Low with a fancy American name) rework station and it would burn tips up very quickly. My original tip in the FX-888D lasted 2 years and I use it daily. Edit: I will agree it sucks if I have a large ground plane. My solution to that is to preheat the area with my hot air wand.
Louis Rossman is not a hobbyist. His needs are different. He really does need a direct drive iron, Most hobbyists don't. How many hobbyists would be soldering three joints in as many seconds? About his point of Fahrenheit vs. Celsius. He is not an engineer. Most engineers (whether American or otherwise) would concede the Celsius is superior to Fahrenheit.
I can use either. I "think" in F for things around room temperature. I use C for anything I wouldn't touch, especially for things above boiling / 100C. Except for baking, where every recipe is in F. The rest of the world thinks that the U.S. doesn't understand metric. Even people that "don't know" metric actually use it frequently. Most people can't remember any large soda bottle that wasn't measured in liters. A half liter is more common than a pint. 12 ounce cans are just 'a can', not called out by volume. And everyone knows roughly how big 9mm is.
That is one thing about being American--you have to use both metric measurements and--whatever the other system of measures is called. In most cases we (Americans) don't have a lot of choice in which measurement system we use depending on the application. If someone were to as how tall you were and you said 183 centimeters if you were talking to an American he would at best have to think a while to figure out six feet and at worst have no idea what you are talking about. And then you buy soft drinks in liter bottles.
+captxrox Indeed, I have several tools with both an imperial and metric version and stock hardware in both imperial and metric. While I generally prefer metric if given the option, a recent exception was a mitutoyo micrometer, where the imperial version reported both systems while the metric version only reports metric.
Since when is the "direct heat" or "direct drive" in any way, shape, or form, NEW? The Metcal MX500 series solder stations were direct drive >25 years ago. They used heaters that were integral to the tip, and had an electrical connector on the opposite end of the tip. Metcal reps used to demo their solder stations by soldering a copper penny onto a full copper (unetched) copper ground plane. As for the indirectly heated/sensed iron like the Weller or the Hakko FX888 in the video, note that this type of iron was used for decades in electronics manufacturing without any issues. No issues with solder joint quality, no problems with speed, and no problems with reliability of the solder stations/irons themselves. The early irons had their temperature set by the tips themselves, and came in 500F, 600F, or 700F. Yes, tips oxidized if people left the irons on overnight, but the tips were only $CAN4-5 each.
I like the thermal camera content. I have been using the EEVblog forum for to find a really nice thermal camera enthusiast community. I am checking it a few times a day and contribute as often as possible. I am hoping for more content.
Having used the JBC as the lab bench iron in uni I can say they are extremely nice and quick to use. However, unfortunately they're way too expensive to buy as my personal iron.. I'll have to stick with my cheapo one!
I was just looking at my 400 watt Weller soldering gun. Put a copper block on the tip, drill a little hole in the block, install a K thermocouple connected to a $5 digital 110V temp contoller and mount a common soldering tip on the front of the block. What's wrong with that for those hard to solder connections?
I remember looking at the 951 when I was buying. Just too expensive for home use. I think it was about 2.5x the cost of the 888 locally. Even the FX-888 was a bit pricey for me at the time. Maybe one day I'll splash out on a fancy one.
In theory. But in practice tip price has nothing to do with the type. For example, most JBC cartridge tips cost between $30-40. Ersa tips (which are non-cartridge) cost between $9-40, depending a lot on tip style. And then Pace cartridge tips cost between $11-13, even for the tip styles that cost $40 from JBC or Ersa.
The problem is Louis is coming from the perspective of a shop owner making a living off of this work. For most people, we are using it for hobby and DIY stuff. For the amount we use it, it doesn't make sense to throw that much money at a soldering iron. The problem with buying a knock off is whatever we buy, we want it to last.
Another note, measure the tip temperature of the JBC, if you haven't already, the one I used was about 20-30 degrees hotter than the screen suggested...
I am sooo glad that my dad got me the JBC for Christmas. Due to his profession he cooperates ALOT with electronics engineers and as he asked them what station to get me they all pointed him straight to JBC. @Work, they used to use Ersa but recently switched to JBC🙏🏻
13:40 You say it's not fair because the JBC is 130W. If you look at the power indicator on the JBC, it says about 20% power (can't really read the number). It was good to see the irons head to head under the FLIR. It appeared to me that the JBC got hotter when you put it on the board (which makes sense really, as you were measuring the temp of the top of the iron).
It would be nice for a review on the TS-100 soldering iron since it uses that “new type” cartridge tips and you could get one for around~$60 USD and it’s open source *edited ST-100 to TS-100 thanks to Jonny
Take a look at www.aliexpress.com/item/Electric-Unit-Digital-Soldering-Iron-Station-Temperature-Controller-Kits-for-HAKKO-T12-Handle-DIY-kits-w/32740527077.html
That is NOT a proper bench soldering station IMO. It is more designed to be thrown in the carry bag or something for portable use. People keep asking me to compare it to bench soldering stations, I won't do it.
@@OggyGTA Agreed. The temperature control on butane irons is laughable! Also, I had a RS one, and the rubber(?) seal leaked... The damn thing ignited in my hand! Never again!
Speaking of integrated heating element tip soldering irons, what do you think about ts100? I know, that there are a lot of reviews of it out there, but still, we haven't got your valuable opinion.
My admission of shame: I'm still using my old 12.5W and 25W Antex, basic, non temperature controlled, irons. But then I'm a hobbyist with no storage space and I've got used to them over the years (yes, I know that's the logical fallacy of antiquity.)
And it's doing the same job as any of the others just fine. Obsessing over soldering iron minutiae is for people who pretend to busily solder away 25 hours per day...
speaking of old tech, the ones I used in school a couple years ago didn't even have temperature control, those were some tense classes barely seconds between "solder is flowing right" and "whoops the trace is burning away"
Yup, I had the same experience in school, they gave us some very hot Weller irons and everyone was lifting pads. I already had some experience with a regulated station and soldering with those was very difficult. What's the point of teaching kids their first soldering lessons with such irons?
My uni's electronics lab has fixed temp irons and I've lifted a few pads with those guys. They're nice and quick and extra heat can be really helpful (they don't supply extra flux) but I'd feel more comfortable if it wasn't so hot.
I cannot buy an brand iron for those prices anywhere here in Oz. 1010, 888 or 951. I have to buy a US iron and run a stepdown or pay more than double the cost. A Hakko FX-888D is $227AU ($163US), the Weller 1010 is $281AU ($203US) and the Hakko 951 is $527AU ($380US). All of these are out of the price range of a hobbyist.
I really wish he’d finally test an Ersa!!! (As people commented in the prior video.) They use “old fashioned” tips that slip over a heater, but in a more modern way, with the heater and thermocouple way up at the front of the heater, and with closer tolerances (and thus a better fit) than the cheap Hakko and Weller. The result is a system with inexpensive tips, and performance that’s closer to the cartridge irons, but at the cost of the Weller. (The Ersa i-Con nano, for example, heats from cold to about 350C in about 10 seconds.)
Addendum: in the intervening year, Dave said he contacted Ersa, and they wanted totally unreasonable terms for review units (like editorial control). So he told them to pound sand. Since Dave understandably doesn’t want to buy them with his own money, it means they won’t get reviewed. Having now gotten to use JBC tools, they do have slightly better performance than my Ersa. But now, the Pace ADS200 is a far, far, far better value than JBC or Ersa.
This "new style" heating element looks incredibly like diesel engines pre-heaters... Only difference, the automotive ones are threaded in. A pain to replace them, they use to bind into the block and when trying to unscrew, they break and remain buried inside...
23:48 - *JBC's graph math is WRONG!* A *_difference_* of 35°C is NOT equal to 95°F! It is actually a difference of 63°F. Nor is 70°C = 158°F. Which is 126°F. OMG for a company who's business is heat I am not impressed.
ElmerFuddGun Over the years I’ve fixed numerous Wikipedia articles whose temperature differentials were wrong, because someone thought it’d be OK to use a bot to add auto-conversion of temperatures, not realizing that the formulas for CF are different for a *temperature* and a *temperature difference*. :::facepalm:::
@@tookitogo Many thanks! So THAT'S why they were wrong! I had previously puzzled over this, but the idea of a Wikipedia temperature conversion bot never actually occurred to me!
I’ve been doing this since the early 1970s. With, believe it or not, very old technology irons, most of that time. Amazingly, we did all the work we had to do with them. In 1998 I bought a Weller MC5000 station. One of the first computer controlled stations. Recently, it died. It was very good. I had two irons. It was only 60 watts, but for back then, it was a fair sized unit. I used the same two irons for that entire time. Same tips too. So I recently bought the Weller WT1 H, a 150 watt station, with the 120 watt iron and the 80 watt. I’m surprised at how well this works. It takes less than 14 seconds to go from room temp to 715 (none of this Celsius crap for me). It takes a couple of seconds to respond fully when soldering. You can even get a 200 watt iron. I dont think comparing cheap stations to a $480 station is valid. Try the one I have against it instead. The price is comparable. All the differences seen here are from a small iron vs a big iron. Twice the watts makes a bigger difference than the direct heat. On my new Weller the same thing happens when comparing the 80 watt iron vs the 120 watt iron. I imagine that if I get a 65 watt iron vs their 150 iron the difference will be even greater.
Well, since the eevblog site is down, I thought I'd outline a bit why this test might be a bit misleading and why station power rarely actually matters. The total thermal performance of an iron comes down to 1) how thermally conductive the tip is 2) the amount of heat stored in the tip and how close it is to the tip (center of thermal mass) 3) Latency of station control and 4) Power of station. That is in order of performance. There's no point in having powerful station if the control system is really laggy and never asks for power from the station until temperature has dropped a lot. Low latency from the control system only helps when you have really low thermal capacity because quickly making more heat is still slower than already having the heat in the tip. And there's not much value in having a lot of heat stored in the tip if you can't get it to flow rapidly (thermal conductivity). So the best performance comes from having super thin plating for maximum conductivity, the largest tip that works, the heater and sensor as close to the tip as possible, and then having adequate (not necessarily more) power to respond to the need for power. I appreciate that Dave points out that for many users, they won't notice much of a real performance gain to the JBC. But WHY NOT? It simply comes down to the fact that the indirect heated Hakko can still store enough heat in its tip to do a joint such that the response of the station, the location of the sensor and power of the station-- all that is mostly moot. Now in the unlikely case where you are working really fast on super massive objects, you can likely outrun the Hakko or other indirect irons. I've posted online in a couple places that I've been testing a 300w Hakko cartridge station (the FX-801) and the difference in performance to the FX-951 is almost imperceptible. Why? Because nothing I'm soldering can tax the 951 enough to reveal it's shortcoming relative to the massive FX-801. Even though the 801 has 2x or 3x the thermal mass and 4x the power, it's moot. Because ultimately the heat can't flow out of the 951 fast enough to tax it enough to matter. Even soldering a 3/4" copper pipe, I can't pull my 951 down more than 25 degrees or so when set at 350C. That's with the tip sitting in a pool of molten solder. Something else besides the station power and response is what is limiting it. In this case, it is the thermal conductivity of the solder itself and of the copper pipe itself. Slightly hotter tip temperatures can offset some disadvantages. The same mass stores more heat (small tips perform like bigger ones). Heat flows outward faster because of the larger difference in temperature. This can offset some disadvantages of a thicker plating (i.e. hakko tips). So if it takes a 280C setting of a Hakko to perform like a JBC at 240C, it really doesn't matter. The setting is just a number. What matters is heat flow-- that's what the joint sees, that's what neighboring components see. If you're flowing solder in about 2 seconds, you have have the right tip temperature. Faster is too hot, making it hard to respond with good technique and runs the risk of overflowing heat and harming nearby components. Slower also runs the risk of overheating parts because you are heating everything up instead of just the area you're soldering (i.e. heat soak). If you have the largest tip you can use installed and you are making joints in ~ 2 seconds, you have essentially optimized the performance of that iron and tip for that task, regardless of temperature setting or actual thermal mass of the tip. Two seconds. Not one. Not four. Two. Just like they mention in that Pace soldering training series that's hosted here on YT. It's 50 years old and probably still the best soldering training you'll ever see.
A 65W iron and a 135W are 2 very different irons. I bet an ancient, direct to the wall, non controlled 135W iron would be close. Power makes pointy tips work as well as a chisel.
Curious if there is a high temp grease that could be used as a thermal paste in the old style. It may just make a mess or cause other problems but a reasonable idea to test if you have access to the materials.(could use some solder but the tips would need to be swapped while hot and I don't know if the cooling contraction would be too much stress over time. Also would low temp solder or high temp solder work better?[Brownell's 44 melts at 340c/645f, within the iron's range but above normal electronic use setting.]) Important to note that it isn't just double the drive cost, but about 10x tip cost. The "old" T-15 style msrp for $10(Hakko brand, offbrands have more insulating airgap) while "new" style cartidge tips msrp at $77. Since you may to need 6 tip styles on hand, that tip cost isn't trivial. Tips were over half the cost of my last iron purchase. Even if you have a favorite tip that does 80% of your work the other 20% doesn't go away. (Quick tip the T18 heavy-duty tips have the same ID as the T-15 and use the same heating element. If you buy the T-18 attachment nut(from the hakko 600) they can be used on T-15 irons. The nut just has a larger diameter hole because the T-18 tip is thicker material.) Now if you have a shop with several [compatible] soldering stations the cost of tips is mitigated because you only need one one or two primary use tips per station, and the rarely tip shapes can be shared among the whole shop. For a hobby, especially for those needing two irons for desoldering, going new style will be a $500-$1000 investment. Where as the old style tips are compatible with the $25-$50 hako-601/600 Atten-SA-50/2065 type of irons.
Hi Dave, nice video :) I love how the thermal camera shows so clearly how the tips are performing. One thing I didn't hear you talk about is the ergonomics of the newer tech soldering handles like the JBC. The small tip to grip distance on the JBC really makes a big difference, it gives you way better fine control for tiny surface mount stuff.
its the quicko t12-942. Didn't come with a power supply and takes a standard barrel jack that will accept 12-24v dc. I just my lab power supply to power it and after almost 2 years of use it still works perfect even with the original tip
Probably you haven't worked on modern multi-layer motherboards, otherwise you will know how hopeless the old style is. Remember you only tested on 1 layer ground-plane, just imagine 4 or 5 times more heat sink from the groundplane. If you want to really test it, desolder a few trough hole electrolitic capacitors from an old motherboard and you will find out how difficult it is, especially the negative pin. Also try to replace a usb connector with the Hakko just for fun :)
I have worked on modern large layer count boards, I know the limitations. It's actually not as bad as you think given that components are supposed to have thermal relieves. I'm just trying to explain and show the difference between the two types.
I know what you mean, but from practice know that there is a big problem. The trough hole capacitors used on motherboards have thin leads, much thinner than regular trough hole, something like 0.3 or 0.4 mm and the hole is a very tight fit, very little solder in the hole. While you can melt the solder on the surface inside the hole the solder does not melt. If you pull the capacitor you damage the internal plating on the hole. The problem is that it is limited heat transferred trough the thin lead to the inner layers. I don't think they cared for repair-ability when they made them like that.
Sure, but I've removed through hole parts from large multilayer boards with a standard Hakko, it's not like it simply doesn't work. Of course YMMV, and I'm definitely not saying that an integrated tip iron isn't better, it is way better, but those who write off the "old" style irons as useless are wrong.
I use an old Weller PU2D and replace many mobo capacitors, and have never had the through hole come out with the capacitor leg. When I say many I mead 1k plus.
Why the thermal relieves? Everething modern is reflow now, I understand that with reflow they are not required. I don't use them. Thermas dull the performance of my carefully selected ceramic caps. I recon that sometimes prototypes are a pain to assemble without them ;) and I have that JBC
That temperature drop, proves JBC has a much more reliable reading than the Hakko which sensor is not in contact with the tip. Hakko has a fake reading, so he doesn't know that the tip is already cold in order to pump up the pwm
It's not a fake reading. The thermocouple can only read its own temperature - it takes time for the heat to transfer into the tip. It's still reasonably accurate for what it's doing and it's not like they can do better with that tech.
"it's not like they can do better with that tech." Yes they can. Because the heat transfer coefficient (through the air) and the thermal transmittance (through the metal itself) are both known values. So any drop of the thermocouple in the heating element translates to a fairly specific amount of heatflux at the tip that can be counteracted to some degree with more intelligent controlling. But do they _want_ to do that? No.
@Prehistoricman: Yes "misleading" may be the proper word. Sorry. @Leo Curious: you are absolutely right they don't want it, because it's easier to control PID from a misleading / slow reading that will make the feeling that you are there at temperature but you aren't, than a fast reaction sensor. But it's more than PID added to the equation, it's the tip coefficient, the current that will vary with different types of power supply and noise, yes noise, you can't take a sensor measurement without switching off the iron when you take a read.
It just a soldering iron dude - they all work ;) If you are a hobbyist you get what you can afford. If you are a Dave you have to have the latest greatest ;)
I am convinced. Those new irons are the professional tools. I was happy with old tech soldering iron for professional work, but I had to crank it up to 480'C to solder high current inductors like 25A 2.2uH in SMD package. It does the job, but it must be set to extreme temperatures. Image headting up two or three planes that large tiched by vias. Even with 160W old tech soldering iron we are talking about 300'C for small 0603, 350-400'C for meadium sized components and >450'C for very large components.
I started off with Aoyue Hot air soldering station had for years and had the same tip as the Hakko in your demonstration found it difficult to remove big components ..then came across JBC HDE tried the free 30 day trial works so good I purchased it then bought the JBC JT hot air station which is a lot more $ both equipment work awesome no regrets by the way awesome video showing the thermal camera Nice videos you put out keep up the great work 👍
:D still using my old Weller from studying times...and never would change it unless it goes to solder iron heaven one day. Back in the days electronic engineers were the professionals. Nowadays everyone who can read in a programm "this goes here and must have this resistance" can call himself a professional (:D no idea why i went this far). That newer irons are faster and more consitent and you should get it for mass soldering. :( but still love my old baby...even though i can go drink a coffee while i wait for it to heat up
I just had a similar rant lol, the older gear was either home use or pro use and the pro gear was designed really well. In the days when everything was through hole it had to be.
We have a JBC DIT & DIR, Weller WX1011 & WX1010, Ersa Icon 1 in the lab. Out of them my favorite one is the Icon 1 with the iTool. I am able to use lower temps and the thermal capacity is massive which resulted much more enjoyable soldering sessions. A properly designed good quality iron with passive tips is as good as an active one. Note that I havent tried Metcal yet.
I wasn't aware of this tech change, but since I've never touched one, I'd better keep it that way--because my tips look a lot less expensive. 🤣 I feel like it might be better for me not to know the extent that I'm 'missing out.'
The thermal camera I have used had a focusing ring. Thermal cameras have very low resolution, so that may be a contributing factor. Some cameras synthesize video from a thermal sensor and normal visible light camera for improved clarity.
Yes. Flir Ex series need an external focussing tool. These can be 3D printed. The ETS does not have focus control, it's fixed. In the EEvblog forum there is a great thread by Fraser on improvements for it.
I disagree, from the thermal footage in this video it certainly seems like the focus is the limiting factor. I can't easily make out the individual pixels, so unless there's some anti-aliasing going on, it seems like the focus is what's preventing the images from being more "crisp".
Power Max the ETS320 has a 320x240 resolution. Which is basically the E8 put on a stick - hence TS for "table stand". And even a 80x60 image will look much better when focussed.
What 'technology' could possibly be in there? it's a heating element and a transformer and a switch with a temperature sensor and a bit of electronics to toggle heating on and off. It's supposed to be hot. how much technology do you possibly need? it's not like it makes a massive difference if you're at 345°C or 362°C. The only thing that should really matter is how quick you can pump in the amps into the heating element to get it up to speed and keep it at a temperature when you solder a large thermal mass. Sure the actual irons need to have some thermal mass to them and have good thermal coupling between the heating elements and the actual 'iron' part of the iron. But what exactly do you pay for when you get a $600 soldering station?
Hmmm...we are comparing 60W with over 100W. It's like I had a comparation between my 90CP car...with a 200 cp car...and I expect that my car will be able to have the same performance. The reason is very simple, the 100W solder will be able to push more power (and more heat). This mean that the drop of the temperature will not be so big, and recovery will be faster. Short: 100W mean the power in 1 second. So, if you solder something big for example 3 seconds, the 60W will be able to push 180W/3 seconds...and 100 Will be able to push 300w/3 seconds. More, don't forget that thermal dispation of the joint/materila that you want to join will be the same... True, probably my next iron will be "the new" tehnology...but I don't belive that is so big difference. It will be interesting to see using stations with the same power
bolovanro I think my Metcal is only 60 Watts max, and it's still way better for all types of soldering IMO (SMD and PTH). I definitely don't consider myself a "professional" by any means, and I'm not running a repair shop, but I doubt I will ever go back to using the older style indirect irons. Granted, the retail price of most of the known-brand direct-heat stations is still a tad high, but the Hakko 951 looks well worth the $250, and many people are mentioning the TS-100. (I haven't used either of the above stations, so can't give a proper opinion on them, but they seem quite well reviewed.) Every Metcal station I've owned have been second-hand off eBay, and they last for many many years. There's a company called Thermaltronics who are now selling new Metcal / OKI tips as well, so most of the older models are still covered. I'm dying to see a video now of a comparison between a Metcal, Hakko 951, JBC, and a few "older style" stations. But, Dave's main point at the end of the vid is that the direct-heat stations are chosen more for a production environment due to the faster recovery time (and not just their performance on large ground planes / heatsinks). I would like to see more "real World" soldering examples between the different types of station, because I would argue that the direct-heat stations make a big difference when it comes to soldering the small / SMD stuff too. With only 60 Watts on my Metcal, and a similar width of tip, I'm confident it would still pass the copper-clad PCB test with ease. I agree that it was a bit unfair to pit the lower-wattage stations against the ~135W JBC, but Dave did mention that in the vid. (P.S. I don't work for nor represent any of the above companies. I just tried Metcal stations at work, after many years of using older style stations at home, then thought "Oh, wow, so THIS is what makes soldering so much easier." lol)
I still have a Weller WTCPL soldering station, the one that sets the temperature of the tip by the Curie temperature of a plug in the base of each tip. I bought it sometime around 1975, and it refuses to die. Last time I looked, I can still get tips for it. This must be an "antique" soldering station, if the earlier ones with electronic temperature adjustment are "old".
I don't think Louis' point was that you should prefer a crap quality new style iron over a good quality old style one, it's that the cheap clone new style irons are *actually pretty good*. He's saying you don't have to stay with the old style irons to get something quality yet affordable, because even the cheap clones of the Hakko 951 perform well. Also I'm curious if you've ever tried one of the high end induction irons like the FX-100? I thought those were the actual latest and greatest tech, though they have the same issue as the old Curie point irons in that you can't really adjust the temp. I've used a JBC station a couple times, but never one like that.
What is your opinion of the ts-100? After a year of using it my only issue is the power supply as the wire gets in the way. I would love a station version that uses the tips, but holds them in differently, or a battery/super cap powered version.
Not sure if you mentioned this in the video: A lot of aerospace and defence companies do not permit the new technology (induction or RF power transfer) soldering iron to be used, they have to use resistive heating elements. The fear is the injection of high energy magnetics or RF is an unknown effect on reliability of components.
It's not bad unless you have tiny hands, you usually hold it on the thin edge of the case so it actually feels smaller than a lot of station type handles. It's great for a quick fix, assembly small boards or travel iron. I think a lot of people could use it as a main iron, but if you're a person who solders many days a week it _might_ not fill that role comfortably.
I am excited to get one of these in the next few weeks. On one hand, excited from all the positive opinions I am hearing. On the other, very skeptical from the we-took-a-hakko-2027-and-removed-the-grip-that-keeps-you-from-burning-yourself-and-labeled-it-a-ts100 ergonomics they have going on.
New to soldering.. which is better, hot and fast, or lower temps.. but slower.. which is better for through board and surface mount? Is it better to take some 60/40 at 300 C for a quarter second or 240 C at half a second.. or is it so short of a time that it's moot?
i've been using a basic 30 watt iron from radio shack for nearly 40 years, fixing everything from Walkman's to TV's. the new ones are nice and nifty, but not necessarily required, unless maybe for doing micro electronics. some of us cant justify spending that much on something that gets used 2 to 5 times a year.
I have one of them RadioShack irons, and last year got a Hakko FX-888D and it was an absolute night and day difference, Now I use my old iron for welding plastic.
I would be surprised that any manufacturer ships stations with wet sponges still, after everyone finding out ages ago that wet sponges are bad for tips... but then I realized those manufacturers care more about selling you more tips than they do about customer satisfaction. Use the metal chore-boy things, you'll thank me after a year of not buying new tips.
euuhmmm dave. 🙄🙄 I still use my 25++ year old Weller magnasat soldering station. The new board repair dudes just cant solder lol and need way to expensive soldering stations with lots of bling bling gadgets. cheers mate from a old skool dutch repair and radio amateur dude.
What I like most about the cartridge-type irons is the ease of changing tips. For hobbying stuff, I think the thread-lock style irons are just fine, but I do agree with Louis's argument. For $100 you don't necessarily even need a Hakko 951 knockoff. You just want an iron that is capable of using the T12 or T15 Hakko tips, or any tip of similar style. Cartridge-based irons are much better just for their ease-of-use and functionality. I always hated having to wait for my 888 to cool down so I could change tips, took forever. With cartridge ones you don't even have to touch any metal. You just pull the hot tip out by the sleeve and pop a new one in. I used to use the 888D to repair really small electronics for a good year. Eventually it just couldn't cut it. It handled charge ports just fine, but the problem is, once you get down to the micro-scale with things like 01005s, you just don't have enough power to pump into those tiny pads. You also can't use a massive tip to make up for the lack of thermal linkage, your only option is more power. You could bump up the temp, sure, but at that scale, that's really risky. The other issue is tip selection. Hakko's thread-lock tips are unique specifically to the 888D. As an example, you may not be able to put Weller tips on your Hakko 888 station and vice-versa. So as far as tip selection went, you were kind of boned if you needed a smaller tip and couldn't find one. Compared to the T12/T15s, which have a very wide selection of sizes and shapes. Conclusion: for hobbying and large electronics repair (stuff you don't need a microscope to see), I think these older types of stations are just fine. But for anything smaller, or if you're soldering in large quantity, do yourself a favor and get a big boy soldering station.
You don't need to wait for it to cool down to change tips, just cut the power off, loosen the fixing nut by wrapping it with thick piece of paper or cloth or using pliers, then you can unscrew it with fingers if you won't touch it for too long, then remove the tip with tweezers or pliers and repeat in reverse, the whole process takes like 30 seconds, sure it's slower than with cartridge tips where it takes like 5 secs but tolerable unless you do some specific job when you need to change tips very often Also in 900m/t18 series there's a special tip that is precise and massive at the same time, sometimes it helps, it's called s4
I fully agree to Dave. Additionally, a very big advantage of the JBC type of irons is the fact that they have the lower temperature "sleep" mode. to prevent premature corroding of the tip. With my older Weller magnastat I had to replace the tip every month because the tip was at 370°C all working day. While the oldest JBC frequently used tip is now 5 years old! Ok.... these JBC tips cost a lot more and at the end the total costs will be comparable but the huge comfort of the JBC is worth every cent. I used to be a fan of the Wellers, but from the first day I touched the JBC, the Weller was history... professionally... At home I still use the Weller bought 35 years ago because the investment of 350 euro's privately is too much. And the heavy to be soldered stuff where the Weller can't cope with I will take to my work. Or i must cut in the costs of my kids...... naaahhhhh i guess not.
My freezer doesn't make ice cubes when I set the temperature at 38 degrees F so I better spend twice as much on one that will make ice cubes when I set it to 30 degrees F. New technogy means doing better for the same cost or less.
I have a Pace soldering station at work, when the one i had at home broke i bought a Mlink S4 chinese for around €60, i absolutely love it, has served me for more than 3 years and still going strong, it literally gets to 350c in 5 seconds
The JBC at 5 times the cost. I would never see 5 times the performance. My son got me as a gift a tempature controlled iron and I noticed a big difference then my old non-temp controlled iron. As a hobbie I could never afford the JBC and would rarely benefit from it, especially using leaded soldier.I have learned alot from your vids, your a Great Teacher. Thanks Dave for sharing your knowledge and experience.
I think the point Louis was trying to make is that you don't need to spend 2x-3x as much as you used to for a JBC station, you can get inexpensive clone Hakko or other Chinese stations with the same direct integrated heater tip design for only slightly more $ than the old technology. For a DIYer even a TS100 might be enough, or combine a Hakko handle with one of those cheap DC controllers.
"quite a while to heat up"
Me: coming from a radio shack 15 dollar 28 watt garbage iron. 'Seems like light speed to me :D'
Best iron i ever had was a RS 30w. Second best is the RS 20-50w variable i use now. Only problem ive had is finding the 6mm tips for it(thought i found some on amazon, turned out they were 4mm, but a few wraps of aluminum fixed that). Mainly use it to take things to bits, or fix a loose wire here and there, and it works beautifully, especially with 60/40. If i was making boards in a production setting, yeah Id break out the pace stand. But for simple hobby level touch touch put it on the stand, place another set of components, touch touch stuff, I got nothing but love for the crappy old school RS 'dumb'-irons.
My iron takes 11s to get to 450 degrees
haha right? I went from a junk Weller soldering pencil to the Hakko in this video. Went from a couple minutes to heat to about 10 seconds.
@@TankR I still use, to this day, my RS 15 watt iron. I have two of them that I purchased in the 1980s and they are venerable in how useful they are!
Story of my life man 😂😂😂
Many years ago Dave and some of the EEVBlog forumers steered me towards JBC. Still haven't had to replace a single tip! One of the best purchases I ever made. Thanks guys!
Afrotechmods may I ask for a PID tutorial? We need more good teacher like you
What informations do you need in such a PID tutorial?
Leo Curious probably PID basic and each parameter role (I dont need those, other might), PID implementation on a MCU (NOT arduino) and tuning PID parameter
ruclips.net/video/VVOi2dbtxC0/видео.html
I prefer Afrotechmods style, he explain it a lot better (at least IMO)
3:10 This moment reminded me of an old story.
Way-way back, I briefly worked as a production test and repair technician. There were several of us and since most of our time was spent with testing and fault finding and not soldering all day long, we didn't have personally assigned soldering stations, we just shared a few of them. This was fine, except when we all tried to use them at the same time.
It was one such moment. There was one free station left but it was because it had a problem. The light came on but the tip didn't heat up. We were waiting for its replacement. Since all the other stations were in use, I was fiddling with the bad one and discovered that it had some intermittent contact problem and somehow I managed to get it working. Pleased with myself, I was waiting for it to fully heat up and I was getting ready for soldering. At that moment, the lead technician - let's call him "Nick" 😉- turned up and saw me at the "bad" soldering station. He walked up to me, snatched the iron out from the stand and with an all knowing smile he said: "You know this one is not working, right?" ...and to demonstrate the fact and be dramatic about the whole thing, he just pushed the business end of the iron into the palm of his other hand. He did it so unexpectedly and quickly that I didn't have time to say anything. By the time I did, I could hear this "ssssss" sound, soon folowed by the smell of burnt flesh. 😧
I think there was a lesson in that!
I thought he was gonna toss it in the trash like a took lol
hahahahaha
I just realized I purchased a brand new old technology iron. Lol
You and me both, buddy!
I just did yesterday then seen this today I just spent 100 bucks on old technology
Same here. Just bought myself the Hakko. However, I had a knockoff newer technology unit and it blew itself up after 30 minutes. I'd rather solder a little more slowly than not at all.
the main reason for the differences shown in this video is the double heating capacity of the JBC's 135W heating element compared to the Weller and Hakko's 60W :}
the "new technology" does not have THAT kind kind of advantage when compared to same wattage "old technology" irons.
@@duroxkilo lol ok I guess my cheep 70w t12 knock off that heats up in 3 sec must just be magic then 🤣
I bought a Hakko FX-888 (with the temp dial) on your specific recommendation. I still have it, and use it. It remains the best iron I've ever used. No reason for me to change!
You've been talking a lot about soldering irons lately, what do you think about the recent contender (and much celebrated by many hobbyists at least) the TS-100 soldering iron?
Switch & Lever I have both the FX-888D and TS100. And I like the TS100 better. The only drawback is that it does not have a good stand. That is the only reason I still have the FX-888D on the bench.
I love my TS-100 :)
I also love my TS-100! But a good stand and flexible cable are in my list oft things i have to buy next. Daves opinion in it would be interesting!
Love my TS100. It is a "New Tech" iron and costs
Art Vandelay i dont think so but it uses external power supplies so the high voltage stuff is the problem oft whatever supplie you are using. Besides that its verry well made. Due to the direct heating design the lower part of the tip doesnt gets that hot but some sort of an raised edge in the top end of the handle to prevent your fingers from slipping on to the hot metal shaft would be nice. But that never happend to me using it.
I've always put thermal paste between my heater element and tip assembly. Much less thermal lag, no air gap.
At 12:30 when the JBC is used on the copper, it peaks at 25% power, or about 30w. There is a thermal gradient from the heating element to the sink and the Hakko's thermocouple is just too far upstream from the tip to measure an accurate temperature.
It is tricky, but it is possible to do temperature compensation based on the power currently needed to maintain a given temperature. Something like this: a tip can maintain 240C with 2w power, right now we're pushing 10w to maintain 240C. That means our tip temp is lower than 240C, boost it according to a power curve.
By far the easiest solution is to have the thermocouple as close to the tip as possible.
With some due respect, I'm still using the Weller WP25 that I bought in 1971, with high-quality Weller tips still available. 25 watts, no temp regulation, just a real soldering iron. Takes 5 minutes to reach temp, and you use the tip you need for that day's work. Used it 12 hours a day for 35 years, then occasionally for 5 or 6 hours/day for 20 years, and now just occcasionally for personal work because I'm retired. Still works like the day I bought it. I'm not buying some chinese made iron that'll break next year, when I've got one that works fine.
Your Iron is as good as it was decades ago and you have skills and experience. Younger people that just start in this field or a hobby, have new options. Chinese stuff ranges from cheap and bad, thought midrange and high end made for western brands. Because they are made in China too...
Thank you for including the link to Rossmann's video in the description! So many RUclipsrs don't do this when they reference videos for some reason.
How much do the consumables cost for those high-end irons? I can get genuine Weller tips for $5 ea at Fry's. I assume those cartridges are a lot more expensive.
The JBC tips cost about half the cost of the Hakko station.
@@LBCAndrew That is fine as long as they hold up well. The advantages for the old-style with separate tips and heating elements is cost, since you only have to replace one or the other most of the time ($10-20 each). That also means you can afford to buy a wider variety of tips to play with. The down-side is you have to be careful around the fragile heating element, and replacing the element on the Hakko requires soldering (hope you have a second iron handy). The other downside being the older style tips like the FX-888D had looser tolerances to allow the heating element and tip to expand and contract freely, so the iron warms up slower (even if the Hakko's wattage was the same compared to Dave's JBC).
Having the heating element and the tip integrated into a cartridge lets the iron heat up a lot faster. The downsides for the cartridges are all in the material science: rapid heating and cooling means they will wear out or crack faster if the element and the metal tip expand/contract at different rates, so R&D costs go up. The tips are more expensive. You can't afford as many of them so you may not have the right tip for the job. The knock-off cartridges are going to be cheaper, but they probably won't have the same amount of R&D behind them and they won't last as long. Just my 2 cents.
it's quite wasteful and this planet is full of trash.
the advantages are minimal comparing same power heating elements but the company's profits are not marginal :}
For the big honking heat sinks or old radio chassis, use a 250w Weller soldering gun and a 10 gauge wire as a tip. Mr. Carlson has a video on that. I learned to solder with the soldering gun technology and the "old" style seems awesome to me still. Taught both my kids how to solder with little kits they built.
I have never felt limited by my 888d and I do a ton of soldering. I keep it at 390C and have never had any issues
It's fine so long as you're not soldering things with large heat capacities or that you need a lot of quick power into. I've run into issues with the 888d on boards where the designer forgot thermal relief on ground contacts, and it struggles when you need a fine pitch tip for SMD work since the tip isn't well regulated.
The other thing is if you're not married to brand or brand rip-offs, there are units out there that pack WAY more for the dollar- say the KSGER 3.1, which uses t12 tips and can do most anything you ask of it- there are even 200 watt units out there that only ask 80 USD. I've had Hakos and Wellers (granted, all of my wellers were DOA even if they "felt" nice and solid with a giant transformer in the case) and the only thing that really justifies the price is the name, IMO. The tips are a different story though, legit Hako tips don't give a damn, and will just keep going, and going and going.
Granted, I've not had the other big name (JBC), so I can't say. But the argument of value is an important one, and the sheer responsiveness of a cartridge system just can't be ignored. 'Older', non-cartridge systems still have use, and aren't worthless, but when you can get a cartridge system for the same price... Why? Aside from corporations, "liability" concerns and such.
It all depends on what you're using it for. If you're doing hobby projects and the occasional home repair then you really won't benefit from the newer style of irons, but if you're using it commercially or doing a lot of soldering then you may benefit from using the new style of irons. I'm personally very leery about the quality of the knock-off irons, especially the accuracy of the temperature.
I picked up a Hakko FX-888D. I absolutely love it. If I need more power for bigger connections, I use butane flame, anyway. It's never let me down, heats crazy quick (used to crappy pencil type and really really old gun type (bad electrical connectivity to the tip really hinders things...)), tip stays nice and clean (I always put it away with a glob of 60/40 on the end; no oxidation). Best $99 I spent on a tool.
Buying a Weller iron tip with integrated element and doing a custom driving circuit for it seems like a good idea 💡
When i don't have the 10 seconds to wait for my soldering iron to heat up, i definetaly don't have the time to solder. Not a professional though, i get why you'd want something like this if you switch on your iron a hundred times per day.
speaking as a professional, I don't turn my iron on 100 times a day. I turned it on once in the morning, and off once in the evening.
I solder 8-10 hours a day in a production environment with an FX-951 and I love it. In contrast, I use an $80 Radio Shack digital station at home with an iron similar to your 888D and I've never had any problem with it. If I had a choice, I prefer the 951 any day. The cost is the only drawback, but it's well worth it. I recommend saving for the best iron and skip the knock offs. At the end of the day, you'll be glad you did... Thanks Dave
hey, if you're still rocking your radio shack model, look into some of the china based T-12 style irons, you can get them around $50USD
I use the FX-951 at home and its just brilliant. The heat time and the auto-switching holder work great too. Just make sure you're not getting a knockoff. (Wasn't a fan of the FX-888D though.)
I've been watching this channel from the first day of dumpster diving and i absolutely love all the information, it just makes day to day life soo much easier
"if you are doing a joint per second..." -Dave Jones 2018 folks, 22:36
At 15:45 i think less power is no excuse for the Hakko, the led point bottom right on the display shows it wasn't even applying full power to the iron.
If i recall correctly that decimal point represents weather or not the heater is on, and thus when blinking it's not on the whole time.
I suspect the thermal resistance is the issue, the iron is blinking off because it's 'reached temperature' as far as where the temp sampled is concerned.
A point of interest, i'm a hobbyist and had both of the exact same irons.
For hobby use the JBC station is a bit pricey, but damn it's good.
I sold the Hakko to reduce the cost of getting into the JBC..
I now have the JBC and TS100.
With the exception of the stand setup i think i like the TS-100 even more than the Hakko, could use a little work on it's hand grip though.
I've soldered I hour days with a $30 hakko clone. It's all I'll ever need. Never had one fail yet, 6 years of use
which one
@@atetraxx You'll never get the same one twice even from the same supplier.
Practise makes perfect!
Buying a knockoff is insanity, especially when for the same $ you can have a dependable Weller. I've used the old style professionally for years and the irons are decades old but work flawlessly on smd, cable harness and thru hole work. Especially good when you have another shift using your iron, the tips are cheap so the shop has plenty. Not going to argue the new is better but the old is FAR from obsolete.
Yeah, I'm quite happy with my Ungar that has multiple heating elements that screw into the same handle and pretty much the same PL113 tip on them, I use a 45W element most of the time, plugged into a box that'll cut that in half with a diode. Works well for me, though I don't do *any* surface-mount stuff.
Unless you've tried yourself you can't make a blanket statement like that. Thousands are enjoying the T12 solder station without a problem.
The Echelon yeah a bunch are also pissed because they got some questionable quality. It’s a crap shoot if they work out of the box and then fail after a couple months. I researched for months before settling with the Hakko. From everything I’ve seen the T12 machines that aren’t high end are pretty garbage quality at the end of the day. I don’t want to wonder if I got the good ksger or the bad one. That’s why I bought hakko. Plus genuine vs aftermarket tips make a difference. If you buy cheap stuff, then don’t expect for it to last long.
Main problem of "old" tech are 900 series of hakko. They have bad design. Weller and ersa use same tech but deliver heat with no trouble. 900 tips are garbage with huge air gaps and high heat resistance. Genuine T12 are great, have copper core and low thermal resistance. Chine t12 are lottery. Easy test - set tip tp 200 c and put it in a cup of water. Good tip drops to 100c instantly. Bad one usually doesn't even boil water.
@@Roy_Tellason An individual on an antigue radio forum commented on using a diode. I didn't understand why at the time . Now I do, thanks!
My two favorite electrical RUclipsrs Dave and Louis duking it out via response videos. Love it!
Can't be long before the boxing ring. As is the way of RUclipsrs these days. :)
Rossman is an idiot. Im done with him.
@@stanburton6224 what changed?
haha love the back-and-forth between Dave and Louis - old school youtube video responses!
Ways to start an argument among EEs:
-What's everyone's favorite CAD/EDA package?
-What's everyone's favorite soldering iron?
-Conical or Chisel?
Andrew Kowalczyk tab or space?
Ah... depends on the number of caps, how they look and how easy they are to reach.
Anyone want popcorn this should get interesting.
Conical of Chisel? noobs, the correct answer is slanted chisel... (not really, i like conical quite a bit and use that the most.. but when slanted chisel tip has just the right angle and girth, it is just... aahhh......)
13:38 How accurate are those temperatures? If the Hakko were a few degrees low and the JBC were a few degrees high, you'd see a big difference because you're so close to the melting point.
Metcal/OKI PS-900 is using induction, coil is in the handle, heating an alloy in the tip. I guess that would be considered direct drive, would probably mean simpler/cheaper tips too. It's about 200€ in the EU. Wonder how it compares to resistive irons.
I use a Metcal MX-500 at work the tips cost around £20 for normal temp tips and around £30 for the higher temp tips. Really good irons.
Also induction Quick's. Up to 120W and can be used at any temperature, unlike OKI/Metcal.
The Metcal handpiece is so ergonomic. Truly like a pencil. Changing tips couldn’t be faster. Heatup is instant. And for production shops, nothing for your workers to dick around with. Tip dictates the temp. I have a TS100 as well... it’s excellent, but not in same league.
Around a decade ago, my old employer got bought out and closed down. I got a chance to get a lot of equipment at auction, and ended up selling a lot. I was always impressed by the Metcal stations, but as a hobbyist, the tips were inconvenient. They were AMAZING, but they were also calibrated fixed temp tips. A bit expensive, and you had to change out tips to change the temp. I sold the Metcal stations, and stuck with my Hakko 927 & 936s. Recently got a Chinesium hot air station, but hearing there's now affordable Chinese direct heat stations... That even Louis Rossman would take over a Hakko... I'm VERY tempted!
I use Metcal PS900 everyday and i'm very satisfy, especially when i need to be fast!
The tip cost around 10/12 euro each, maybe the less expensive in this kind of tips
I recently got the JBC CD system to replace my old Weller WES51. Best money I have spent in a long time. Seriously.
I never knew what I was missing until I got a nice system.
I have the FX-888D and I love it. My previous iron was part of my Kendal 852D++ (AKA One Hung Low with a fancy American name) rework station and it would burn tips up very quickly. My original tip in the FX-888D lasted 2 years and I use it daily.
Edit: I will agree it sucks if I have a large ground plane. My solution to that is to preheat the area with my hot air wand.
Louis Rossman is not a hobbyist. His needs are different. He really does need a direct drive iron, Most hobbyists don't. How many hobbyists would be soldering three joints in as many seconds?
About his point of Fahrenheit vs. Celsius. He is not an engineer. Most engineers (whether American or otherwise) would concede the Celsius is superior to Fahrenheit.
And Kelvin rules them all.
I can use either.
I "think" in F for things around room temperature. I use C for anything I wouldn't touch, especially for things above boiling / 100C. Except for baking, where every recipe is in F.
The rest of the world thinks that the U.S. doesn't understand metric. Even people that "don't know" metric actually use it frequently. Most people can't remember any large soda bottle that wasn't measured in liters. A half liter is more common than a pint. 12 ounce cans are just 'a can', not called out by volume. And everyone knows roughly how big 9mm is.
Can always use decimal inches.
That is one thing about being American--you have to use both metric measurements and--whatever the other system of measures is called. In most cases we (Americans) don't have a lot of choice in which measurement system we use depending on the application. If someone were to as how tall you were and you said 183 centimeters if you were talking to an American he would at best have to think a while to figure out six feet and at worst have no idea what you are talking about. And then you buy soft drinks in liter bottles.
+captxrox Indeed, I have several tools with both an imperial and metric version and stock hardware in both imperial and metric. While I generally prefer metric if given the option, a recent exception was a mitutoyo micrometer, where the imperial version reported both systems while the metric version only reports metric.
Since when is the "direct heat" or "direct drive" in any way, shape, or form, NEW? The Metcal MX500 series solder stations were direct drive >25 years ago. They used heaters that were integral to the tip, and had an electrical connector on the opposite end of the tip. Metcal reps used to demo their solder stations by soldering a copper penny onto a full copper (unetched) copper ground plane.
As for the indirectly heated/sensed iron like the Weller or the Hakko FX888 in the video, note that this type of iron was used for decades in electronics manufacturing without any issues. No issues with solder joint quality, no problems with speed, and no problems with reliability of the solder stations/irons themselves. The early irons had their temperature set by the tips themselves, and came in 500F, 600F, or 700F. Yes, tips oxidized if people left the irons on overnight, but the tips were only $CAN4-5 each.
I like the thermal camera content. I have been using the EEVblog forum for to find a really nice thermal camera enthusiast community. I am checking it a few times a day and contribute as often as possible.
I am hoping for more content.
Having used the JBC as the lab bench iron in uni I can say they are extremely nice and quick to use. However, unfortunately they're way too expensive to buy as my personal iron.. I'll have to stick with my cheapo one!
I was just looking at my 400 watt Weller soldering gun. Put a copper block on the tip, drill a little hole in the block, install a K thermocouple connected to a $5 digital 110V temp contoller and mount a common soldering tip on the front of the block. What's wrong with that for those hard to solder connections?
I remember looking at the 951 when I was buying. Just too expensive for home use. I think it was about 2.5x the cost of the 888 locally. Even the FX-888 was a bit pricey for me at the time. Maybe one day I'll splash out on a fancy one.
if you have to choose for similar applications, the tipping point may be the cost difference between the inert tips vs the integrated ones?
In theory. But in practice tip price has nothing to do with the type. For example, most JBC cartridge tips cost between $30-40. Ersa tips (which are non-cartridge) cost between $9-40, depending a lot on tip style. And then Pace cartridge tips cost between $11-13, even for the tip styles that cost $40 from JBC or Ersa.
The problem is Louis is coming from the perspective of a shop owner making a living off of this work. For most people, we are using it for hobby and DIY stuff. For the amount we use it, it doesn't make sense to throw that much money at a soldering iron. The problem with buying a knock off is whatever we buy, we want it to last.
Another note, measure the tip temperature of the JBC, if you haven't already, the one I used was about 20-30 degrees hotter than the screen suggested...
lolz, just watched more of the video... the 280 degrees that the JBC iron is measuring on the thermal camera is probably accurate... :P
I am sooo glad that my dad got me the JBC for Christmas. Due to his profession he cooperates ALOT with electronics engineers and as he asked them what station to get me they all pointed him straight to JBC. @Work, they used to use Ersa but recently switched to JBC🙏🏻
Depends on the country you are in too, JBC is popular in Europe but not in the US for example.
EEVblog You're correct, I'm Austrian so the market is dominated by Weller, Ersa and JBC 👍🏻 On the flipside, Hakko is hard to come by here
13:40
You say it's not fair because the JBC is 130W. If you look at the power indicator on the JBC, it says about 20% power (can't really read the number).
It was good to see the irons head to head under the FLIR. It appeared to me that the JBC got hotter when you put it on the board (which makes sense really, as you were measuring the temp of the top of the iron).
Fair call, I should have paid more attention to the bargraph, but it also may not be responsive enough to see peaks.
It would be nice for a review on the TS-100 soldering iron since it uses that “new type” cartridge tips and you could get one for around~$60 USD and it’s open source
*edited ST-100 to TS-100 thanks to Jonny
Take a look at www.aliexpress.com/item/Electric-Unit-Digital-Soldering-Iron-Station-Temperature-Controller-Kits-for-HAKKO-T12-Handle-DIY-kits-w/32740527077.html
That is NOT a proper bench soldering station IMO. It is more designed to be thrown in the carry bag or something for portable use. People keep asking me to compare it to bench soldering stations, I won't do it.
EEVblog ts100 nice but im with dave my ts100 has nothing my bench metcal mx500 .. different uses
sudo compare ts100 to bench soldering stations ;)
yes it's made to be more portable, but it's still really good, I used it to solder my keyboard
What about putting some high temperature thermal compound or something like copper anti seize on the ceramic element of the old style ones?
"These are old technology."
Bruh I'm using a soldering iron from like 1965, 'Old' is relative.
Sure, but in this context it is old. Yours is ancient.
@@TheEchelon pre historic.
My dad has a butane-fired pen-sized iron somewhere in the toolbox. Really great for field repairs. We used it to fix the AC once I think.
@@josugambee3701 I've got one here, it's great for heavier duty jobs as they can whack a lot of heat out. Terrible when you need finess though :)
@@OggyGTA Agreed. The temperature control on butane irons is laughable!
Also, I had a RS one, and the rubber(?) seal leaked... The damn thing ignited in my hand! Never again!
Speaking of integrated heating element tip soldering irons, what do you think about ts100? I know, that there are a lot of reviews of it out there, but still, we haven't got your valuable opinion.
My admission of shame: I'm still using my old 12.5W and 25W Antex, basic, non temperature controlled, irons. But then I'm a hobbyist with no storage space and I've got used to them over the years (yes, I know that's the logical fallacy of antiquity.)
You and me both, Julie.
I don't do a great deal of soldering, but for hobbyist use on smallish stuff, they are just fine.
Ditto. Have a 25w antec here and it just works for most things.
And it's doing the same job as any of the others just fine. Obsessing over soldering iron minutiae is for people who pretend to busily solder away 25 hours per day...
Julie Brandon . Nothing to be ashamed of. I know respected professionals doing it with less.
Just get yourself dirt cheap 30$ digitally regulated soldering iron from China. You'll never touch your old iron again.
Working with an Ersa Tip260 from when I was 8 yrs old. Never led me down. Even do SMD with it. I'm 51 yrs now...
speaking of old tech, the ones I used in school a couple years ago didn't even have temperature control, those were some tense classes barely seconds between "solder is flowing right" and "whoops the trace is burning away"
Probably a Weller curie point station?
Yup, I had the same experience in school, they gave us some very hot Weller irons and everyone was lifting pads. I already had some experience with a regulated station and soldering with those was very difficult. What's the point of teaching kids their first soldering lessons with such irons?
Jernej Jakob Obviously the point is to make you hate soldering so that you never try it again. duh!
My uni's electronics lab has fixed temp irons and I've lifted a few pads with those guys. They're nice and quick and extra heat can be really helpful (they don't supply extra flux) but I'd feel more comfortable if it wasn't so hot.
I cannot buy an brand iron for those prices anywhere here in Oz. 1010, 888 or 951. I have to buy a US iron and run a stepdown or pay more than double the cost. A Hakko FX-888D is $227AU ($163US), the Weller 1010 is $281AU ($203US) and the Hakko 951 is $527AU ($380US). All of these are out of the price range of a hobbyist.
I really wish he’d finally test an Ersa!!! (As people commented in the prior video.) They use “old fashioned” tips that slip over a heater, but in a more modern way, with the heater and thermocouple way up at the front of the heater, and with closer tolerances (and thus a better fit) than the cheap Hakko and Weller. The result is a system with inexpensive tips, and performance that’s closer to the cartridge irons, but at the cost of the Weller. (The Ersa i-Con nano, for example, heats from cold to about 350C in about 10 seconds.)
I am the lucky owner of a Ersa I-con 1, heats up to 380C in 7 sec, but it's not cheap.
Addendum: in the intervening year, Dave said he contacted Ersa, and they wanted totally unreasonable terms for review units (like editorial control). So he told them to pound sand. Since Dave understandably doesn’t want to buy them with his own money, it means they won’t get reviewed.
Having now gotten to use JBC tools, they do have slightly better performance than my Ersa. But now, the Pace ADS200 is a far, far, far better value than JBC or Ersa.
Can you connect an integrated handle with old stations? There are integrated handles which are rated around 80w .
How to get away with any iron: Use leaded solder!!!!!!
Not possible in all countries unfortunately 🙁
@@AlexKall Really?? That’s sad 😞
I love my fx-951. Especially the standby function (which the knockoffs don’t have). It has paid for itself in tips many times over.
This "new style" heating element looks incredibly like diesel engines pre-heaters...
Only difference, the automotive ones are threaded in.
A pain to replace them, they use to bind into the block and when trying to unscrew, they break and remain buried inside...
i love videos that go super in-depth, thanks for the video!
23:48 - *JBC's graph math is WRONG!* A *_difference_* of 35°C is NOT equal to 95°F! It is actually a difference of 63°F. Nor is 70°C = 158°F. Which is 126°F. OMG for a company who's business is heat I am not impressed.
By their math the difference between 0°C and 1°C is 34°F... ya no.
ElmerFuddGun Over the years I’ve fixed numerous Wikipedia articles whose temperature differentials were wrong, because someone thought it’d be OK to use a bot to add auto-conversion of temperatures, not realizing that the formulas for CF are different for a *temperature* and a *temperature difference*. :::facepalm:::
Do keep in mind when I used JBC's graph I referred to it as "enemy propaganda", which I feel is on-point.
You are right. Our graph has been corrected now. Thanks!
@@tookitogo Many thanks! So THAT'S why they were wrong! I had previously puzzled over this, but the idea of a Wikipedia temperature conversion bot never actually occurred to me!
I’ve been doing this since the early 1970s. With, believe it or not, very old technology irons, most of that time. Amazingly, we did all the work we had to do with them. In 1998 I bought a Weller MC5000 station. One of the first computer controlled stations. Recently, it died. It was very good. I had two irons. It was only 60 watts, but for back then, it was a fair sized unit. I used the same two irons for that entire time. Same tips too.
So I recently bought the Weller WT1 H, a 150 watt station, with the 120 watt iron and the 80 watt. I’m surprised at how well this works. It takes less than 14 seconds to go from room temp to 715 (none of this Celsius crap for me). It takes a couple of seconds to respond fully when soldering. You can even get a 200 watt iron.
I dont think comparing cheap stations to a $480 station is valid. Try the one I have against it instead. The price is comparable. All the differences seen here are from a small iron vs a big iron. Twice the watts makes a bigger difference than the direct heat. On my new Weller the same thing happens when comparing the 80 watt iron vs the 120 watt iron. I imagine that if I get a 65 watt iron vs their 150 iron the difference will be even greater.
I’m guessing that the new tips are a lot more expensive
Duh! LOL!
Well, since the eevblog site is down, I thought I'd outline a bit why this test might be a bit misleading and why station power rarely actually matters. The total thermal performance of an iron comes down to 1) how thermally conductive the tip is 2) the amount of heat stored in the tip and how close it is to the tip (center of thermal mass) 3) Latency of station control and 4) Power of station.
That is in order of performance. There's no point in having powerful station if the control system is really laggy and never asks for power from the station until temperature has dropped a lot. Low latency from the control system only helps when you have really low thermal capacity because quickly making more heat is still slower than already having the heat in the tip. And there's not much value in having a lot of heat stored in the tip if you can't get it to flow rapidly (thermal conductivity). So the best performance comes from having super thin plating for maximum conductivity, the largest tip that works, the heater and sensor as close to the tip as possible, and then having adequate (not necessarily more) power to respond to the need for power.
I appreciate that Dave points out that for many users, they won't notice much of a real performance gain to the JBC. But WHY NOT? It simply comes down to the fact that the indirect heated Hakko can still store enough heat in its tip to do a joint such that the response of the station, the location of the sensor and power of the station-- all that is mostly moot. Now in the unlikely case where you are working really fast on super massive objects, you can likely outrun the Hakko or other indirect irons.
I've posted online in a couple places that I've been testing a 300w Hakko cartridge station (the FX-801) and the difference in performance to the FX-951 is almost imperceptible. Why? Because nothing I'm soldering can tax the 951 enough to reveal it's shortcoming relative to the massive FX-801. Even though the 801 has 2x or 3x the thermal mass and 4x the power, it's moot. Because ultimately the heat can't flow out of the 951 fast enough to tax it enough to matter. Even soldering a 3/4" copper pipe, I can't pull my 951 down more than 25 degrees or so when set at 350C. That's with the tip sitting in a pool of molten solder. Something else besides the station power and response is what is limiting it. In this case, it is the thermal conductivity of the solder itself and of the copper pipe itself.
Slightly hotter tip temperatures can offset some disadvantages. The same mass stores more heat (small tips perform like bigger ones). Heat flows outward faster because of the larger difference in temperature. This can offset some disadvantages of a thicker plating (i.e. hakko tips). So if it takes a 280C setting of a Hakko to perform like a JBC at 240C, it really doesn't matter. The setting is just a number. What matters is heat flow-- that's what the joint sees, that's what neighboring components see.
If you're flowing solder in about 2 seconds, you have have the right tip temperature. Faster is too hot, making it hard to respond with good technique and runs the risk of overflowing heat and harming nearby components. Slower also runs the risk of overheating parts because you are heating everything up instead of just the area you're soldering (i.e. heat soak).
If you have the largest tip you can use installed and you are making joints in ~ 2 seconds, you have essentially optimized the performance of that iron and tip for that task, regardless of temperature setting or actual thermal mass of the tip. Two seconds. Not one. Not four. Two. Just like they mention in that Pace soldering training series that's hosted here on YT. It's 50 years old and probably still the best soldering training you'll ever see.
A 65W iron and a 135W are 2 very different irons. I bet an ancient, direct to the wall, non controlled 135W iron would be close. Power makes pointy tips work as well as a chisel.
Curious if there is a high temp grease that could be used as a thermal paste in the old style. It may just make a mess or cause other problems but a reasonable idea to test if you have access to the materials.(could use some solder but the tips would need to be swapped while hot and I don't know if the cooling contraction would be too much stress over time. Also would low temp solder or high temp solder work better?[Brownell's 44 melts at 340c/645f, within the iron's range but above normal electronic use setting.])
Important to note that it isn't just double the drive cost, but about 10x tip cost. The "old" T-15 style msrp for $10(Hakko brand, offbrands have more insulating airgap) while "new" style cartidge tips msrp at $77. Since you may to need 6 tip styles on hand, that tip cost isn't trivial. Tips were over half the cost of my last iron purchase. Even if you have a favorite tip that does 80% of your work the other 20% doesn't go away. (Quick tip the T18 heavy-duty tips have the same ID as the T-15 and use the same heating element. If you buy the T-18 attachment nut(from the hakko 600) they can be used on T-15 irons. The nut just has a larger diameter hole because the T-18 tip is thicker material.)
Now if you have a shop with several [compatible] soldering stations the cost of tips is mitigated because you only need one one or two primary use tips per station, and the rarely tip shapes can be shared among the whole shop.
For a hobby, especially for those needing two irons for desoldering, going new style will be a $500-$1000 investment. Where as the old style tips are compatible with the $25-$50 hako-601/600 Atten-SA-50/2065 type of irons.
Hi Dave, nice video :) I love how the thermal camera shows so clearly how the tips are performing. One thing I didn't hear you talk about is the ergonomics of the newer tech soldering handles like the JBC. The small tip to grip distance on the JBC really makes a big difference, it gives you way better fine control for tiny surface mount stuff.
Yes, but this wasn't a review of the JBC.
That's a fair point, I didn't think about that.
I repair instrument clusters for a living and the 30 dollar t12 I got from amazon made it apparently clear my fx888D is just outdated
Which T12 station did you purchase ?
its the quicko t12-942. Didn't come with a power supply and takes a standard barrel jack that will accept 12-24v dc. I just my lab power supply to power it and after almost 2 years of use it still works perfect even with the original tip
Probably you haven't worked on modern multi-layer motherboards, otherwise you will know how hopeless the old style is. Remember you only tested on 1 layer ground-plane, just imagine 4 or 5 times more heat sink from the groundplane. If you want to really test it, desolder a few trough hole electrolitic capacitors from an old motherboard and you will find out how difficult it is, especially the negative pin. Also try to replace a usb connector with the Hakko just for fun :)
I have worked on modern large layer count boards, I know the limitations. It's actually not as bad as you think given that components are supposed to have thermal relieves. I'm just trying to explain and show the difference between the two types.
I know what you mean, but from practice know that there is a big problem. The trough hole capacitors used on motherboards have thin leads, much thinner than regular trough hole, something like 0.3 or 0.4 mm and the hole is a very tight fit, very little solder in the hole. While you can melt the solder on the surface inside the hole the solder does not melt. If you pull the capacitor you damage the internal plating on the hole. The problem is that it is limited heat transferred trough the thin lead to the inner layers. I don't think they cared for repair-ability when they made them like that.
Sure, but I've removed through hole parts from large multilayer boards with a standard Hakko, it's not like it simply doesn't work. Of course YMMV, and I'm definitely not saying that an integrated tip iron isn't better, it is way better, but those who write off the "old" style irons as useless are wrong.
I use an old Weller PU2D and replace many mobo capacitors, and have never had the through hole come out with the capacitor leg. When I say many I mead 1k plus.
Why the thermal relieves? Everething modern is reflow now, I understand that with reflow they are not required. I don't use them. Thermas dull the performance of my carefully selected ceramic caps. I recon that sometimes prototypes are a pain to assemble without them ;) and I have that JBC
I use those jbc stations at work, I just bought an fx888d for home to replace my old jaycar special. Will be interesting to see how I go.
That temperature drop, proves JBC has a much more reliable reading than the Hakko which sensor is not in contact with the tip. Hakko has a fake reading, so he doesn't know that the tip is already cold in order to pump up the pwm
It's not a fake reading. The thermocouple can only read its own temperature - it takes time for the heat to transfer into the tip. It's still reasonably accurate for what it's doing and it's not like they can do better with that tech.
"it's not like they can do better with that tech."
Yes they can.
Because the heat transfer coefficient (through the air) and the thermal transmittance (through the metal itself) are both known values. So any drop of the thermocouple in the heating element translates to a fairly specific amount of heatflux at the tip that can be counteracted to some degree with more intelligent controlling. But do they _want_ to do that? No.
He means "misleading" rather than "fake"
@Prehistoricman: Yes "misleading" may be the proper word. Sorry. @Leo Curious: you are absolutely right they don't want it, because it's easier to control PID from a misleading / slow reading that will make the feeling that you are there at temperature but you aren't, than a fast reaction sensor. But it's more than PID added to the equation, it's the tip coefficient, the current that will vary with different types of power supply and noise, yes noise, you can't take a sensor measurement without switching off the iron when you take a read.
It just a soldering iron dude - they all work ;) If you are a hobbyist you get what you can afford. If you are a Dave you have to have the latest greatest ;)
I am convinced. Those new irons are the professional tools. I was happy with old tech soldering iron for professional work, but I had to crank it up to 480'C to solder high current inductors like 25A 2.2uH in SMD package. It does the job, but it must be set to extreme temperatures. Image headting up two or three planes that large tiched by vias. Even with 160W old tech soldering iron we are talking about 300'C for small 0603, 350-400'C for meadium sized components and >450'C for very large components.
Nice! I love my JBC :)
I started off with Aoyue Hot air soldering station had for years and had the same tip as the Hakko in your demonstration found it difficult to remove big components ..then came across JBC HDE tried the free 30 day trial works so good I purchased it then bought the JBC JT hot air station which is a lot more $ both equipment work awesome no regrets by the way awesome video showing the thermal camera Nice videos you put out keep up the great work 👍
:D still using my old Weller from studying times...and never would change it unless it goes to solder iron heaven one day. Back in the days electronic engineers were the professionals. Nowadays everyone who can read in a programm "this goes here and must have this resistance" can call himself a professional (:D no idea why i went this far).
That newer irons are faster and more consitent and you should get it for mass soldering. :( but still love my old baby...even though i can go drink a coffee while i wait for it to heat up
I just had a similar rant lol, the older gear was either home use or pro use and the pro gear was designed really well. In the days when everything was through hole it had to be.
We have a JBC DIT & DIR, Weller WX1011 & WX1010, Ersa Icon 1 in the lab. Out of them my favorite one is the Icon 1 with the iTool. I am able to use lower temps and the thermal capacity is massive which resulted much more enjoyable soldering sessions. A properly designed good quality iron with passive tips is as good as an active one. Note that I havent tried Metcal yet.
that´s also my personal experince. Our whole company is running Ersa Icon now.
I wasn't aware of this tech change, but since I've never touched one, I'd better keep it that way--because my tips look a lot less expensive. 🤣 I feel like it might be better for me not to know the extent that I'm 'missing out.'
I thought the Hakko T12 tips are also direct heated tips. What is right now?
Is it possible to focus the thermal camera? Or is the image always somewhat blurred due to the nature of radiant heat?
The thermal camera I have used had a focusing ring. Thermal cameras have very low resolution, so that may be a contributing factor. Some cameras synthesize video from a thermal sensor and normal visible light camera for improved clarity.
Yes. Flir Ex series need an external focussing tool. These can be 3D printed. The ETS does not have focus control, it's fixed. In the EEvblog forum there is a great thread by Fraser on improvements for it.
it has something like a 60x80 resolution most likely. Focus isn't the bottleneck.
I disagree, from the thermal footage in this video it certainly seems like the focus is the limiting factor. I can't easily make out the individual pixels, so unless there's some anti-aliasing going on, it seems like the focus is what's preventing the images from being more "crisp".
Power Max the ETS320 has a 320x240 resolution. Which is basically the E8 put on a stick - hence TS for "table stand". And even a 80x60 image will look much better when focussed.
What 'technology' could possibly be in there? it's a heating element and a transformer and a switch with a temperature sensor and a bit of electronics to toggle heating on and off. It's supposed to be hot. how much technology do you possibly need? it's not like it makes a massive difference if you're at 345°C or 362°C.
The only thing that should really matter is how quick you can pump in the amps into the heating element to get it up to speed and keep it at a temperature when you solder a large thermal mass.
Sure the actual irons need to have some thermal mass to them and have good thermal coupling between the heating elements and the actual 'iron' part of the iron. But what exactly do you pay for when you get a $600 soldering station?
Hmmm...we are comparing 60W with over 100W. It's like I had a comparation between my 90CP car...with a 200 cp car...and I expect that my car will be able to have the same performance.
The reason is very simple, the 100W solder will be able to push more power (and more heat). This mean that the drop of the temperature will not be so big, and recovery will be faster.
Short: 100W mean the power in 1 second. So, if you solder something big for example 3 seconds, the 60W will be able to push 180W/3 seconds...and 100 Will be able to push 300w/3 seconds. More, don't forget that thermal dispation of the joint/materila that you want to join will be the same...
True, probably my next iron will be "the new" tehnology...but I don't belive that is so big difference.
It will be interesting to see using stations with the same power
bolovanro
I think my Metcal is only 60 Watts max, and it's still way better for all types of soldering IMO (SMD and PTH).
I definitely don't consider myself a "professional" by any means, and I'm not running a repair shop, but I doubt I will ever go back to using the older style indirect irons.
Granted, the retail price of most of the known-brand direct-heat stations is still a tad high, but the Hakko 951 looks well worth the $250, and many people are mentioning the TS-100.
(I haven't used either of the above stations, so can't give a proper opinion on them, but they seem quite well reviewed.)
Every Metcal station I've owned have been second-hand off eBay, and they last for many many years. There's a company called Thermaltronics who are now selling new Metcal / OKI tips as well, so most of the older models are still covered.
I'm dying to see a video now of a comparison between a Metcal, Hakko 951, JBC, and a few "older style" stations.
But, Dave's main point at the end of the vid is that the direct-heat stations are chosen more for a production environment due to the faster recovery time (and not just their performance on large ground planes / heatsinks).
I would like to see more "real World" soldering examples between the different types of station, because I would argue that the direct-heat stations make a big difference when it comes to soldering the small / SMD stuff too.
With only 60 Watts on my Metcal, and a similar width of tip, I'm confident it would still pass the copper-clad PCB test with ease.
I agree that it was a bit unfair to pit the lower-wattage stations against the ~135W JBC, but Dave did mention that in the vid.
(P.S. I don't work for nor represent any of the above companies. I just tried Metcal stations at work, after many years of using older style stations at home, then thought "Oh, wow, so THIS is what makes soldering so much easier." lol)
The JBC never went above 20% output power, it's a totally valid comparison.
I still have a Weller WTCPL soldering station, the one that sets the temperature of the tip by the Curie temperature of a plug in the base of each tip. I bought it sometime around 1975, and it refuses to die. Last time I looked, I can still get tips for it. This must be an "antique" soldering station, if the earlier ones with electronic temperature adjustment are "old".
5:05 - So the "new technology" irons use glow plugs? >.
I don't think Louis' point was that you should prefer a crap quality new style iron over a good quality old style one, it's that the cheap clone new style irons are *actually pretty good*. He's saying you don't have to stay with the old style irons to get something quality yet affordable, because even the cheap clones of the Hakko 951 perform well.
Also I'm curious if you've ever tried one of the high end induction irons like the FX-100? I thought those were the actual latest and greatest tech, though they have the same issue as the old Curie point irons in that you can't really adjust the temp. I've used a JBC station a couple times, but never one like that.
meh! louis likes to complain a lot. after some time i couldn't take it anymore.
:} true story
What is your opinion of the ts-100? After a year of using it my only issue is the power supply as the wire gets in the way. I would love a station version that uses the tips, but holds them in differently, or a battery/super cap powered version.
Will you be doin the Pace Tweezers too?
That should be interesting ;)
Not sure if you mentioned this in the video: A lot of aerospace and defence companies do not permit the new technology (induction or RF power transfer) soldering iron to be used, they have to use resistive heating elements. The fear is the injection of high energy magnetics or RF is an unknown effect on reliability of components.
You can get a TS-100 which will do 80w and take hakko fx851 tips and its cheap and is using new style elements
Great for the price
It's not bad unless you have tiny hands, you usually hold it on the thin edge of the case so it actually feels smaller than a lot of station type handles. It's great for a quick fix, assembly small boards or travel iron. I think a lot of people could use it as a main iron, but if you're a person who solders many days a week it _might_ not fill that role comfortably.
Not big. Pencil like infact.
I am excited to get one of these in the next few weeks.
On one hand, excited from all the positive opinions I am hearing. On the other, very skeptical from the we-took-a-hakko-2027-and-removed-the-grip-that-keeps-you-from-burning-yourself-and-labeled-it-a-ts100 ergonomics they have going on.
New to soldering.. which is better, hot and fast, or lower temps.. but slower.. which is better for through board and surface mount? Is it better to take some 60/40 at 300 C for a quarter second or 240 C at half a second.. or is it so short of a time that it's moot?
i've been using a basic 30 watt iron from radio shack for nearly 40 years, fixing everything from Walkman's to TV's. the new ones are nice and nifty, but not necessarily required, unless maybe for doing micro electronics. some of us cant justify spending that much on something that gets used 2 to 5 times a year.
I have one of them RadioShack irons, and last year got a Hakko FX-888D and it was an absolute night and day difference, Now I use my old iron for welding plastic.
dont waste more time.. get you a professional soldering station. You will never regret!
I would be surprised that any manufacturer ships stations with wet sponges still, after everyone finding out ages ago that wet sponges are bad for tips... but then I realized those manufacturers care more about selling you more tips than they do about customer satisfaction. Use the metal chore-boy things, you'll thank me after a year of not buying new tips.
16:21 Really? 240V?
I'm just another random guy complaining about the unimportant details!
Yeah, latest discovery, temperature-voltage equivalency, just like mass and energy.
You are my hero Dave!
BTW, Q=m.c.dT = V^2.t/R => dT = V^2.t/(R.m.c)
Meisam is dT supposed to be delta T?
Never tried soldering at 240v before? It's not exactly SMD safe, but you can get a good join. :)
I wonder if there is something that can be placed inside the old tip to fill up the space around the heating element and give it better heat transfer?
euuhmmm dave. 🙄🙄 I still use my 25++ year old Weller magnasat soldering station. The new board repair dudes just cant solder lol and need way to expensive soldering stations with lots of bling bling gadgets. cheers mate from a old skool dutch repair and radio amateur dude.
What I like most about the cartridge-type irons is the ease of changing tips. For hobbying stuff, I think the thread-lock style irons are just fine, but I do agree with Louis's argument. For $100 you don't necessarily even need a Hakko 951 knockoff. You just want an iron that is capable of using the T12 or T15 Hakko tips, or any tip of similar style. Cartridge-based irons are much better just for their ease-of-use and functionality. I always hated having to wait for my 888 to cool down so I could change tips, took forever. With cartridge ones you don't even have to touch any metal. You just pull the hot tip out by the sleeve and pop a new one in.
I used to use the 888D to repair really small electronics for a good year. Eventually it just couldn't cut it. It handled charge ports just fine, but the problem is, once you get down to the micro-scale with things like 01005s, you just don't have enough power to pump into those tiny pads. You also can't use a massive tip to make up for the lack of thermal linkage, your only option is more power. You could bump up the temp, sure, but at that scale, that's really risky.
The other issue is tip selection. Hakko's thread-lock tips are unique specifically to the 888D. As an example, you may not be able to put Weller tips on your Hakko 888 station and vice-versa. So as far as tip selection went, you were kind of boned if you needed a smaller tip and couldn't find one. Compared to the T12/T15s, which have a very wide selection of sizes and shapes.
Conclusion: for hobbying and large electronics repair (stuff you don't need a microscope to see), I think these older types of stations are just fine. But for anything smaller, or if you're soldering in large quantity, do yourself a favor and get a big boy soldering station.
You don't need to wait for it to cool down to change tips, just cut the power off, loosen the fixing nut by wrapping it with thick piece of paper or cloth or using pliers, then you can unscrew it with fingers if you won't touch it for too long, then remove the tip with tweezers or pliers and repeat in reverse, the whole process takes like 30 seconds, sure it's slower than with cartridge tips where it takes like 5 secs but tolerable unless you do some specific job when you need to change tips very often
Also in 900m/t18 series there's a special tip that is precise and massive at the same time, sometimes it helps, it's called s4
I fully agree to Dave.
Additionally, a very big advantage of the JBC type of irons is the fact that they have the lower temperature "sleep" mode. to prevent premature corroding of the tip. With my older Weller magnastat I had to replace the tip every month because the tip was at 370°C all working day. While the oldest JBC frequently used tip is now 5 years old!
Ok.... these JBC tips cost a lot more and at the end the total costs will be comparable but the huge comfort of the JBC is worth every cent.
I used to be a fan of the Wellers, but from the first day I touched the JBC, the Weller was history... professionally... At home I still use the Weller bought 35 years ago because the investment of 350 euro's privately is too much. And the heavy to be soldered stuff where the Weller can't cope with I will take to my work.
Or i must cut in the costs of my kids...... naaahhhhh i guess not.
My freezer doesn't make ice cubes when I set the temperature at 38 degrees F so I better spend twice as much on one that will make ice cubes when I set it to 30 degrees F. New technogy means doing better for the same cost or less.
Just imagine how expensive a freezer would be if it could make ice cubes at 30°C
Ah, but what about the tip costs Dave. Those fancy tips look expensive. Weller TCP at present cost a fiver, can't afford 50 quid tips.
Exactly
You can get them for about 5 bucks.
I have a Pace soldering station at work, when the one i had at home broke i bought a Mlink S4 chinese for around €60, i absolutely love it, has served me for more than 3 years and still going strong, it literally gets to 350c in 5 seconds
"the tip is not just the tip any more"
Never was
Yes, it's true nobody ever really soldered anything properly in the 100 years before these revolutionary irons...
The JBC at 5 times the cost. I would never see 5 times the performance. My son got me as a gift a tempature controlled iron and I noticed a big difference then my old non-temp controlled iron. As a hobbie I could never afford the JBC and would rarely benefit from it, especially using leaded soldier.I have learned alot from your vids, your a Great Teacher.
Thanks Dave for sharing your knowledge and experience.
That's why the have different irons ate different price points. No need to buy the expensive one if it doesn't suit your requirements.
Which one did you get?
I think the point Louis was trying to make is that you don't need to spend 2x-3x as much as you used to for a JBC station, you can get inexpensive clone Hakko or other Chinese stations with the same direct integrated heater tip design for only slightly more $ than the old technology. For a DIYer even a TS100 might be enough, or combine a Hakko handle with one of those cheap DC controllers.
Jernej Jakob I know that's what he was saying, and said so in the video.
And then he ask himself why those lights in the ceiling flicker...
Still have my 45+ year old Weller soldering iron. I have it in a box to remind me where I started from electronics wise