Scottsdale & The Problem With Endless Urban Sprawl
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- Опубликовано: 31 май 2024
- *Car Centric Suburbia
This video is about Scottsdale, a suburb just Northeast of Phoenix that has some pretty bad city planning. It's a notoriously anti-growth and anti-public transit city, so I decided if I was going to make an essay on things wrong with car centric suburbs, this city would be a good one to call out.
And just to be clear-this isn't meant to be an attack on anyone currently living in Scottsdale. This video is about things and ideas-it's not a moral judgement against people who drive.
One of my goals as a content creator is to make every video better than the last. So, if you liked this video, subscribe, because they're likely to get even better!
-Thomas Y 
Развлечения
It’s wild to me that the same people who complain about traffic, property taxes, and children not playing outside tend to be the same people who refuse to build cities in ways that would give them what they want.
It’s a circle, living in the suburbs insulates you from the problems that lead you there in the first place. Hopefully this will die with the boomer generation
It’s not those people determining how American cities are built genius
@@JaKingScomez ever heard about nimbys genius
@@JaKingScomez It actually is, in an indirect way. All the karens protesting at townhall meetings against denser housing and public transport infrastructure has a big impact on this.
@@itsjflash actually not sherlock
There was an episode of South Park where the goth kids were pissed off at the vampire kids for copying their style. They captured the head vampire kid, put him in a box and decided to ship him to the most horrible place on Earth: Scottsdale.
Lol
As someone from South Scottsdale, I appreciate that you opened this by noting the profound cultural, demographic, and infrastructural distinctions between South and North Scottsdale. Almost all of features that give Scottsdale its infamous reputation exist exclusively north of Lincoln Drive. When I travel, I tell people I'm from Tempe just to avoid the presumptions that come with telling people I'm from Scottsdale.
That being said, South Scottsdale is still responsible for cultivating an obnoxious party scene where frosted tips are inexplicably still in vogue, a fact for which I do apologize.
cant agree more
Frosted tips are still inexplicably still in vogue. LOL.
I'm from Chandler, and yet I tell people that I'm from Tempe, because for some reason not many people know about it.
And Tempe doesn't have a party scene😵
@@schmittyconstanz nightlife is good in downtown
Love your 80% vs. 100% point at 9:38. I (mike@strongtowns) lived in South Scottsdale for a year and being a 1-car household was really tough. The mixed-use plans for old town look hopeful, and it would be interesting to see an Urban3 study on Scottsdale. Would love to see you do a case study on Tempe! As you know, it's a forward-thinking suburb and could be the most exciting spot in the valley soon. Keep up the great work!
-Mike
Tempe is where they're building that ironically named Culdesac community which is actually a mixed use area with apartments. I'm curious how it will do.
Tempe is a massive shithole. I hate going through there.
Hey Strong Towns, love your work!
I too am happy that the Cul-De-Sac development in Tempe is moving forward; that being said, I do think it’s an illustration of how truly strong towns should do more to encourage incremental and local real-estate investments.
Not that they should’ve blocked this project of course, but not many developers can afford to buy up a whole block and build a new dense neighborhood from scratch.
It would benefit the community more if smaller local construction/rehab partners had worked together to create a car free neighborhood. Hopefully strong towns can start offering more tax credits and other tools to help keep new construction with regional partners; as this will strengthen a metro more than big national players being the only ones making meaningful changes. ❤
Btw, plz tell Abby and Chuck to record another Upzoned already it’s been like a month. ;P
@@JHZech I was very skeptical of this until I learned that over the last 5ish years there has grown a population of people, I think like 50k+, who primarily commute by rail through the various downtowns of the metropolitan area. I really want to live there someday.
So sad that they consider one 4 story apartment a concrete jungle but hundreds of miles of highway and major streets isn't
Spent a few years growing up in North Scottsdale. Family lived deep in a suburb, only houses and golf courses for miles, mainly inhabited by old people. If I wanted to do anything mom or dad had to drive, or whenever I tried to bike a few miles to get anywhere the boomers would honk at me as if I was supposed to ride through people's yards something because there was no sidewalk. It was extremely isolating, parents were always gone working, I had no car, no friends and ended up spending most of those days alone playing video games indoors.
Dystopia.
You literally just described every suburban child in the Midwest upbringing. Sounds like you had crappy parents. I grew up in a very rural area and I had a blast. Riding horses, riding, dirt bikes, bicycles. I feel like the young generation doesn’t know how to socialize. The families that I do know that live in the city don’t let their kids do hardly anything without some kind of supervision like when you’re eight you’re not going to the park with your friends. Too many weirdos out there. In rural areas, you can kind of get away with that.
@@tooltime9260 I’ve been to Paris, been to Netherlands a few times. Well both wonderful places they have hundreds of years of development more than United States has. I think it’s odd that you feel like you’re imprisoned in your house. I’m not sure what the comparison else because in Amsterdam, the houses are right on top of each other. I went to the Dutch Grand Prix and it was a complete mess as far as how they got people in an out. If there was some sort of actual emergency, I can’t even imagine how many casualties there would’ve been. Then we had to walk 2 miles because the city had shut down a area that would not allow taxis are Ubers to go. The lines for the train were extraordinary long. It was a real mess. We still have fun, but we all noticed how incredibly disorganized everything was.
As nice as it is to visit Europe, I prefer this country to live. Such a huge diversity in landscape and people.
I think Western Europe in the United States are both beautiful places for different reasons, but trying to say that one is better than the other is just personal preference.
I used to live in south Scottsdale now I live in central Tucson the differences really show nowadays every time I go back to Scottsdale I realize just how truly car centric it is
But Tucson is also extremely car centric?
@@javierpalomares1774 not really we don’t have the freeways of Phoenix and there is a much bigger emphasis on biking there is less sprawl as well
@@javierpalomares1774I also live in Tucson, and I can also attest that it isn’t as car-centric as people think it is. The construction of I-10 leveled a lot of neighborhoods and economically devastated others. That alone was enough for Tucsonans to say enough was enough. Not having freeways everywhere really contributes to Tucson’s sense of community and its “small town” feel.
It's not car centric. It's "everything is spread apart so you need a car". Wtf were there times when areas were horse centric? Stop making up words
Well Arizona is not like the Midwest or east coast, most desirable places aren’t within walking distance more than likely
Coming from France, i absolutely hated that the public transportation is very scarce in Scottsdale. And that you can't get to a store without walking 2 miles
“Just rent a car” - 🤓
I lived in Tucson and they did not want to become Phoenix with their freeway system. But they adopted Phoenix's urban planning so it kinda looks like Phoenix (just a much smaller version) minus the freeways. They also have a problem with NIMBYs opposing multi-use development.
The weirdest thing to me about Tucson is that there just seems to be a random allocation of trailer parks throughout the city. I'm absolutely not denigrating anyone who lives in them, of course. But it's odd how they just appear all over the place.
And problems with fentanyl 😂
The only problem with the valley's freeway system is that Eugene Pulliam kept us from getting them built sixty years ago when the federal government was paying 90% of the bill, and instead we waited until he was dead and started building them out thirty years ago on our dime
Tucson has a 136 mile bicycle freeway, and pretty much every major road has bike lanes.
The Phoenix metro area, aka the Valley of the Sun, was planned based on the idea that gasoline would never go over a dollar a gallon and that its famous low humidity would always keep 100-plus temps bearable the way they were in the '60s. That's when Maricopa County had 800,000 people, not the 4 million plus it has today.
whoa good insight!
All of our planning is circa-1950. This country's thinking is outdated by about 70 years.
I live in Tucson, which is actually surprisingly urbanist (although it definitely deserves better wide scale planning reform and the newer parts of town/the suburbs aren't much better than Scottsdale) and I have had to go over to phoinex a few times and it always astonishes me how unlivable and fucking awful it is, despite being so much richer.
I lived in Phoenix and Scottsdale growing up and left to New England in my twenties. I presently live in a very walkable neighborhood with grocery stores, pharmacy,banking,sub shops, restaurants etc. There is good public transportation. This is why Arizona just can’t bring me back to settle there.
We have all that without dealing with snow
You burn in the summer 🔥🔥🔥@schmittyconstanz
AZ is getting better at least, Tempe is building 150,000 residential units
You touch on something that I constantly talk about with folks. If you want a better driving experience in your growing city, invest more in walkable communities to take new car demand off the streets and reduce the number of car trips that the average person takes. For most of the USA, being more car light is an achievable goal.
It's central AZ. Nobody is champing at the bit to walk more between April and December
One thing that might slow development in Arizona is running out of water. 😐
@@garryferrington811 we’re good on that. Our state is world class in water management and we rely more on the salt/verde rivers than Colorado.
As a European, I am always curious about how all these zoning laws even made it past your constitutional rights. Shouldn't Americans have more liberty to do on their private property as they please? I'm not against zoning laws all together, but it seems ironic that a country that pertains to uphold private property and liberty to such a degree has gone basically totalitarian in this sphere. Also, a lot of the critique on modern American urbanism seems to come from the young urban liberal class who look towards Europe for answers. I get that we do some things right here wich you might want to adopt, but I think that to a large extend you should look into your own past and make right some wrongs that you self inflicted against the spirrit of your great nation. And then maybe add some bike paths:P
😵
What basic rights are being denied by zoning laws? That's the question you're going to have to answer for this thought to gain any traction. And in cities and suburbs across America, citizens demand zoning laws. They don't want the only residential housing to be built right next to industrial factories -- cities are allowed to master plan better than that.
@@jaceallred It is not my question to awnser. But of the little that I know about the sprirrit of your constitution, I am certain that it did not intend for the "public good" to gain so much power over private property. And one of the reasons why you are a constitutional republic and not just a pure democracy is to solve the problem of the tyranny of the majority, so just because people demand things doesn't mean they have the right to them. Also, I am sure you could gain back a lot of liberty in this field while still maintaining laws that keep heavy industry out of school zonesXD
Racism is the reason
Europeans tend to skip over the obvious when it comes to the United States. It’s enormous. Like I was just in the Netherlands, and the traffic was crazy, they utilize everything so they have trains they have bicycles they have cars they have walking, but it’s half the size of the state of Indiana and has 17 million people in it.
The United States is huge. Having a car is pretty much mandatory in this country because everything is far. That’s why we have these small geographic areas of massive amount of people, and then giant swaths of land where there is nothing.
I would argue Phoenix is an even worse offender of this than Scottsdale when comparing the land area of each city. A city of Phoenix's population should have higher and more numerous skyscrapers at this point, but it chose to annex more land and sprawl throughout the history of it's growth.
Not sure if you noticed but downtown is straight in the middle of sky harbor flight path. They can't go higher
@@xtreme242 It's not stopping them from finding that threshold since a skyscraper project called Astra has already been approved that would stand taller than the old Chase Bank building at 535 feet. Midtown area is also far enough away to densify and build higher. Phoenix is not exactly in a San Jose situation where a limit of less than 300 is a hard requirement.
@@gabrielislas8380 ok it’s taller than chase. There is still a limit because they are direct in the flight path. Limit is roughly 500 feet so that building is pushing up against the limit. And chase is only 483 ft.
The idea of a city maintaining its "suburban feeling" annoys me so much! I live in a place that’s finally getting more walkability+transport and high density housing, but some people (people who grew up in my city in the 70s and 80s) are mad. I am so ready for an urbanization of the suburbs of my city.
Edit: 4:15, that’s the same thing with people in my city
Edit 2: 7:35, that’s my city!
If you want walkability and transit then why not just move to an actual city? Then people who like the suburbs can keep their suburban feeling and everybody wins.
@@Novusod This! I don’t want to live in dense housing areas because I don’t want to deal with other people’s living habits, heck it can affect suburban neighborhoods too, but at least there’s more space and lee way for building projects with loud tools. No chance for that in dense housing like cities.
City lovers should just move into denser cities instead of forcing reconstruction plans on already established zones
in the first 30s he says that people want to move to Scotsdale and then spends the rest of the video explaining why he doesnt like suburban living. Sounds like all the people who want to move to Scotsdale do like suburban living, so why are you trying to change that? If you change it to dense apartments then the people who did want to live there wont want to anymore.
@@Novusod car land doesnt equal suburb but nice try
@@iheartlreoy8134this is what I mean! I’m okay with suburbs, but when it is used by NIMBYs to make it not have any walkability or public transit, that’s where the problem comes!
This video definitely applies to North Scottsdale, but is really out of date for South Scottsdale. The amount of apartments and large mixed use developments in South Scottsdale over the last few years has been eye-popping.
Edit- this came out only a week ago 😅
I live in old town, theses massive condos apartments between here and the 202 have added so many residents.
Totally agree.To catergorize people concerned about OVER -growth as Karen's is offensive.
When I lived in Old Town I used my car like 80% of the time (I could even walk to work), but now I live in Mesa and I can't go anywhere without my car. Also thank you for explaining how the 101 and 202 are only going to get exponentially worse, what a mess!
damn im rly glad i found ur channel. ive been biking, skating, using public transit to get around phoenix for the last 6 years or so (im 20). grew up about a mile west of encanto park, but ive moved to tempe and gilbert the past couple years. i will say the light rail is amazing *if u live near it*. otherwise u absolutely need a car to have any sort of life in the greater phoenix area
Living near it is not enough. It needs to actually have a large network of routes. I do not think it ever will.
@@ligafftheindifferent3495 it has a very decent sized network now and more mileage will be added in the coming years
I used to live in tucson, and while I am definitely an advocate for mixed use and multi tenant housing, the apartments in downtown Tucson were just waaaay too expensive. The ones that were affordable were an absolute joke of home that I would imagine even roaches wouldn't want to live in
They really just need to legally allow for more and more to be built. If zoning were natural and just, there is no reason why you could not live a walk-able area for cheaper than a suburb. Arbitrary zoning and Parking minimums are such a gross use of government.
20 years ago houses were very affordable in Tucson. My wife and I bought a 3 bedroom house for $85k.
An SRO (essentially a flop house) hotel in San Diego, is raising rent from $800 to $1000 / month. You can't even pay that on Social Security and have enough left to buy food.
@@elultimo102 Social Security has failed.
I have an acquaintance who lives in southeast Tucson in a tiny studio..and still pays $1000/month. My mortgage for a 3 bedroom house is just a bit more than that. This just goes to show there is a painful affordable housing shortage.
It's hard to find suburbs that don't suck
You can apply this video to most big cities within the Sun Belt states. But damn I can't say that my Orlando suburb of Kissimmee (just outside Disney World) was that opposed to apartment developments. I lived in an area of town that had quite a few cheaper apartment complexes, duplex houses, townhomes, and of course gated single family communities. It wasn't apparent that there was major opposition to anything other than a SFH unless you enter the obviously small wealthy suburbs. Orlando is sprawling AF but not anti-apartment like Scottsdale seems to be.
I wonder if the Mouse has anything to do with it, those underpaid "cast members" have to live somewhere...
I used to live on 192 and worked/still work at the attractions, IMO the good thing about our area/Florida in general is that there usually isn't much opposition to building things compared to many other places as our politicians are obsessed with GDP growth.
The bad thing of course is they are absolutely awful at it and just approve everything without doing any planning at all in the name of jobs and GDP growth. Buttigieg had some blurb about giving states money to make equitable developments and Desantis jumped all over it saying he was stupid and what difference does it make how things are built as long as they get built.
@@Pedro-0839 Eh the location of crime has a lot more correlation with income than housing type. Middle class folks in single family housing don't have much reason to commit crimes like more desperate poorer people (that so happen to live in rundown apartments). I lived in section 8 housing and was still pretty safe as long as you avoid those criminals. "Apartment culture" isn't a thing.
I grew up in scottsdale in the 90s and it was amazing. But it was definitely hard to get places now that I look back.
I wish florida had more walkable places, best i've seen is near miami and downtowns of some cities. Planning on visiting naples & st augustine next
Key West is good, but no one can afford to live there.
Thankfully, Florida will be underwater in 20 yrs
@@adrianc6534 they said that 20 years ago
I think it is inevitable due to Florida running out of land
They don’t want to be able to walk to anything. They want they’re own spot away from people.
Ah, Scottsdale, that suburb that went full NIMBY against Phoenix Light Rail, together with Gilbert.
And Glendale. I’m not sure if the vote in Gilbert was over construction or just a feasibility study, though the feasibility study was able to happen.
Scottsdale used to have substantially more bus service 14 years ago. Now it has bus shelters and benches where those busses used to go with blue signs that say “no bus service that this location.” Scottsdale people drive and don’t want their taxes wasted on public transit to bring the riff-raff in.
@@danieldaniels7571 that riff raff are the people who work in your hotels so you can earn revenue from those tourists.
To be fair I live downtown in an urban metro area and the bus stop doesn’t attract the best.
@@anonobot3333 that only happens when there is low frequency of public transport. Have the buses arrive every two minutes, and there'll be less chances of meeting people like that.
This suburban sprawl in the US is past the point of no return now. We basically can’t even fix it. It would cost too much and take so long to fix, we’ll all be dead before that happens.
As a Tucson resident, I of course thumb my nose at pretty much the entire Phoenix metro area and we're required to do so by city ordinance. That said, I do feel like not much of Arizona understands walkable compared to my experiences living in the Pacific Northwest. And even up there it's debatable the degree of walkability. The main difference I've noticed is that one might bundle up to walk in 40 degree rainy weather. But almost no one should be walking when it's over 110 out.
Yes, Scottsdale is car centric as almost all suburbs are. But they do have one the more walkable and happening cores in Old Town of any suburb I have ever been to. So can’t say they’ve done everything wrong.
Old town is decently walkable, the rest of the city is now. Not to mention the lack of transportation option.
I love Old Town. I worked at Giligin’s for over a decade.
He never mentioned our "greenbelts"which run N and S for miles .No cars,people walk ,bike or skateboard.Was really surprised that he was ignorant of the greenbelt
@@schmittyconstanz surprised he missed that too. Plus there’s the paths along the Arizona and Cross-cut canals and many very bikeable back streets like 74th Street and Arabian Trail. I get the feeling he really hasn’t explored Scottsdale much and just has a hatred for single family homes, which is what most Arizonans prefer to live in.
The green belt has no use beyond recreation, and it’s actually pretty dangerous do to the lack of a cycling culture, and it’s slippery sidewalk with fun twisty corners that people take too fast for their abilities not grippy asphalt.
My great aunt lives in Scottsdale and I never thought about what it looked like there until now. Great video bro. Watching from Auckland, New Zealand ❤
I agree with you on the traffic. Its horrendous. North Scottsdale was never planned right. I still have a place in my heart for old town Scottsdale, since I lived there when I was a kid. A certain faction of people who live there are some of the snottiest most superficial in the nation. For the most part its the 40k dollar are year millionaires lol. One of the biggest drawbacks in living there is the traffic on Friday and Saturday nights when you take your life in your own hands as so many people are on alcohol and drugs driving around. There is not enough police on the roads at these times. I talked to police officers and they say the majority of people out driving Friday and Saturday nights are probably impaired. You may say " thats in every city", but believe me drugs and alcohol are very prevalent everywhere there. The police try to take the worst off the roads. If you are from California and go there, you'll think "Whats the big deal here?" Scottsdale does have some fantastic restaurants, golf courses and resorts. The weather is fantastic. The best part I loved about living in South Scottsdale was easy access to anywhere in the valley (suburbia around Phoenix) but you can be on crowded freeways during rush hour. I also loved the access to get out of town. Within minutes your out of the city driving up North in the mountains for out door adventures. I dont think the people there are very friendly as many are very pretentious. Its definitely changed since I was a kid. You'll find the older established generations living there to be the friendliest along with immigrants. Im generalizing here your mileage may vary. Wear your seatbelts when driving in Scottsdale.
I had a relative that moved to a remote suburb in order to get a large home on 3 acres. They put some money into it and built a pool and man cave. I have to say, it is nice to visit. When they visit us, they would complain about the traffic in our dense neighborhood. I will admit, we do have traffic, but I also have 4 supermarkets within 2 miles, and countless other stores and restaurants near by. I do many errands by bike or foot. I have friends in near by that I visit by foot. I do hit traffic when I need to drive, which turns a 2 mile drive into 8-12 minutes. When I visit my relatives, I do not hit any traffic, but the nearest supermarket is 8 miles away. If that supermarket does not have what you need, the next options are even further, and forget about decent shops and restaurants. You often have to drive into a dense neighborhood to go out. There are no alternatives to taking the car as either. When I try to point out that they sit in their cars more than I do, they keep coming back to the traffic as a big negative to living in dense areas. How we are conditioned to live is a very emotional subject which can evade rational thought.
Don't forget suburbanites having to drive into the nearest city to enjoy cultural amenities. Concerts, professional sports venues, cultural festivals. Small cities can have these, larger cities most certainly have these. Even small compact towns have these. Suburban housing developments effectively have none of this. Where would it be, any event would be strangled by traffic where as an urban environment means people can park further out and walk / take the bus or simply live nearby these events.
Great video! I'm glad there is someone doing videos on the Phoenix area. I hope to see more in the future.
Imagine living in Phoenix and bitching about the walkability of Scottsdale, as if the entire valley isn't exactly the same. The only places here that are not 100% reliant on owning and using a vehicle to get anywhere are pretty much downtown Phoenix, Old Town Scottsdale, and similar city centers in the other major eastern cities. This entire video is just a hit piece on Scottsdale, because everyone not from Scottsdale loves to shit all over Scottsdale, trust me, I know, I grew up here, well the Phoenix part of Scottsdale, which according to everyone mailing address is the only thing that matters, not what side of the line you live on, so there's that.
Here's a short list of all the cities/towns in the greater Phoenix area that fit this exact narrative:
Phoenix
Scottsdale (Outside of Old Town)
Tempe (Anywhere away from the University)
Mesa
Apache Junction
Gilbert
Chandler
Fountain Hills
Ahwatukee
Glendale
Peoria
Goodyear
Avondale
Surprise
Anthem
You say this isn't meant to be an attack on the people living in Scottsdale or whatever, but instead of picking somewhere like Surprise that's rapidly expanding with no reasonable planning for public transportation, or Phoenix it self, despite being the 5th largest city in the country with possibly the worst public transportation on the top 5 list. You woke up and decided, know what, I'm just gonna shit on Scottsdale today, because fuck um, that's why.
Here are some fun facts to consider:
1. Not everyone wants to live in apartments.
2. Apartments do nothing to increase the walkability of the surrounding area. I live in one, in the Phoenix part of Scottsdale, and have to have a car for everything.
You have a valid point about the shit city planning around here, but it's a problem with the whole Valley, not just Scottsdale, so in the future, if you're going to talk about how suburban planning is shit here, maybe make it less about how rich people suck, and for the record they do, and more about the actual problems which are present everywhere here.
This is true for the US in general. It's the zoning laws. In the UK, businesses and residences are interspersed with lots of mass transit. You really don't need a car there. In the US, it would be hell to not have one.
Concrete jungle? But asphalt plains are ok?
I compared my city's (Minneapolis) comprehesive plan to Scottsdale's. It seems all Scottsdale wants to do is keep buisness as usual with minor improvements here and there. The next 30 years is already looking pretty rough for the American Southwest with climate change becoming climate reality. Never mind that current infrastructure will be at the end of its life in 2050. Unless something radically changes I can see cities like Scottsdale being completely unprepared for the future.
@@mikeyreza transportation is also a major issue, ducey vetoed prop 400 and none of these cities will be capable of handling 10 million people by 2050. yes Tempe is doing good but we're tiny and surrounded by sprawling car dependent giants
Why don't they tax new suburban neighborhoods the actual cost it takes to build and maintain them?
As a person from north Scottsdale, I can see it going in the right direction in my own eyes. Density is coming here and I believe it will force the city’s hand into doing something about it. I wouldn’t be surprised if we see light rail in the next 10 years. Not to mention we have incredible biking infrastructure in place already.
I like very much everything you said and what these commentators have written below. There are a lot of us who feel the same way who are out there, but what are the organizations that we can come together in to make our voices heard? Most of the ones I have contacted want a big fee to join and I do not want to spend a lot of money for what I cannot be sure is what I want to support and will have a big effect. There are too many NIMBYs out there and they are difficult to counter.
One salient point to make regarding sprawl = traffic that is missing here, is that it isn't just mode share and population numbers that contribute to vehicles on the road, it is also distance traveled. One driver traveling 10 miles contributes as much to traffic as ten drivers each driving a mile. So everyone having to drive themselves everywhere for 100% of trips is more digestable when those trips are short, which can be aided by dense housing located near jobs and retail.
1,000 people living in an apartment building driving a 1/4-mile away to the grocery store impacts traffic far less than 100 people living in suburban sprawl an average of 5 miles from the nearest grocery store. The first contributes 250 vehicle-miles (1,000 * 0.25), whereas the second contributes 500 vehicles miles (100 * 5).
that same logic also applies to pollution, but thanks for being educated.
What are your thoughts on Verrado? My husband and I loved the idea but they really lack the business structures in the center that would make it thrive on its own as a small town. Would love your take!
The phoenix metro area has just poor planning entirely 😫..
I've lived here since 2003..
Vegas is worse.
@@mikeyreza idk lol
My kids are here ..but otherwise I hate it here lol
I love Phoenix, and if you drive the planning is quite good.
@Daniel Daniels 2 main arterial roads Scottsdale and Hayden run the entire 30mi which is nice..
My issue is up near the Scottsdale quarter/ Pima crossing area.. with the airport in the middle .. it's a cluster fuck.
I do deliveries here so I get around logistically
@@lueker31 any place built around an airport is going to be just like that, you simply have to go around. Same with Sky Harbor, Deer Valley, and Luke.
This video dropped at the perfect time just as The NY Times published an article about Scottdale’s water shortage. The shortage is so bad that you have people skipping showers and eating in paper plates just to avoid using water.
And then the boomers will water their oversized lawns 3 times a day just to spite everyone else.
This isn't people in Scottsdale. This is the neighboring town of Rio Verde where they relied on Scottsdale's water supply. They just got cutoff.
Rio Verde is not part of Scottsdale.
@@TrevorEditor that's bc Scottsdale is drying up as well, they can't truck or supplement water out to neighboring communities.
@@TrevorEditor not yet
Bravo! Sounds like Scottsdale has a problem with NIMBYs. I did visit Old Town when I was in Phoenix and I enjoyed it but of course had to Uber back and forth because there was no easy way to get there by transit.
The 72 bus connects to the light rail, and there’s a bus every 20 minutes, though of course, that’s only useful if you can use the light rail.
@@grahamturner2640 Thanks. I'll keep that in mind next time I visit. I was staying right in midtown so I did have light rail access and used it quite a bit!
Routes 50, 41, and 29 all connect old town Scottsdale and the Scottsdale Trolly with midtown Phoenix. Not all busses on those three routes go that far East, though. Most people in Phoenix and Scottsdale prefer to drive.
It's hilarious to me that a suburbanite would be concerned about their city becoming a concrete jungle over an apartment building, but not over widening a stroad or building a highway when that would objectively put more concrete on the ground.
😂😂😂😂 "stroad" say it again say it again
We need to start building upwards immediately! Great breakdown of Scottsdales development and what needs to change.
It’s funny to see the juxtaposition between Tempe, a relatively walkable city, to Scottsdale, a suburban hellscape, all within like 5 miles
Old town Scottsdale is very walkable
@@danieldaniels7571 are you a full time driver? that would make sense for you to say that
@@Lildizzle420 no, I'm a full time forklift operator. But on my days off I like to hang out in old town and have a lot of friends there from the years I worked at Gilligan's. When I'm there I usually park in one place and then walk in the area because it's walkable.
@@danieldaniels7571 too many cars not enough trees
Tempes far closer to a hell scape due to the amount of meth addicts there, my friends and I used to jump them for fun back in my college days. Nice to retire to Scottsdale though
loving the longer videos Thomas!
I was in Scottsdale during an Arizona vacation in 1983, and rode a sort of train that took people around a few adjoining shopping centers. This was several linked passenger cars with about 4 to 6 seats each (it was actually pulled by a motor vehicle and traveled on pavement, but worked like a train). The idea was, you didn't have to drive or walk from one shipping center to another, and the merchants jointly funded this service. It prompted people to do more shopping in that district, and - of course - it kept people's cars parked rather than on the busy commercial streets during their transit from one center to another.
IOW, this was, -- dare I say it to the Scottsdale mindset -- _MASS TRANSIT._ And it was funded the same way we fund government services, by each interested party who receives its benefits pitching their money in, rather than each one buying their own. But let us not call that the dreaded word _taxes._
I enjoyed the service and came away thinking, Scottsdale (and the Valley of the Sun overall), why can't you see the obvious; mass transit is good for you. Now expand this itty bitty system way beyond these shopping centers.
Keep in mind the updated General Plan is the third version. The last two updates failed with the voters since it included more density and opponents ran pretty heavy campaigns against it. They may be a vocal minority of all Scottsdale residents, but those are the people who showed up to vote. Similarly, a small but loud group oppose anything that doesn't give them wider roads with more lanes for driving. If people want more ways to travel than driving (whether it be going car light or just have more ways to walk and bike) and more housing options than large houses or "luxury" apartments, they need to be just as vocal to city leaders as the other people. There are a lot of efforts to make these changes but it requires vocal support.
Voting
Good Analysis bro, ive been working in scottsdale as an electrician and PE and for the last 6 years there has been a crazy rise in apartment building. Also it cracks me up bc there is public transit but only in Old town bc they make it look like a fancy purple which is literally a metro bus. Also seeing the comments I agree south scottsdale is night and day to north scottsdale especially when you get closer to the reservations areas reaching the 202.
I wonder if there are any other cities in the valley that are starkly split in the way Tempe and Scottsdale are (north Tempe is a giant college town, while south Tempe might as well be a part of Chandler).
Phoenix. North Phoenix is car-centric but downtown is fine with proper transit and condos.
Learning more and more about other US cities makes me so glad I live in NYC and can literally walk for 5 minutes to get to almost any store within my neighbourhood.
Walk 5 minutes to get robbed by some 12 year old with a gun getting sturdy😂
@@jkashdamoneyman5870 this is New York, not Texas or Detroit.
Born n Raised n Queens, NY, best thing I ever did was leave! Quality of life n NYC is TRASH! I made 6figs there n lived comfortably but no matter how u live, it's just miserable there and your always n some sort of "survival mode"! And as the previous comment stated, the crime is INSANE comparative to other cities! Who cares about having to drive when your life has 10X better quality!!
@@KidFromQueens this how I know you're lying because Queens is a massive Burrough, not a single neighbourhood lmao
@@hajde8128 WOW! I'm lying because I didn't disclose neighborhoods I grew up in?? I swear having conversations is impossible nowadays....what neighborhood I come from IN NYC wasn't even the point! You just had nothing intelligent to say n response so why not just say nothing🤦🏾♂️🤦🏾♂️ Probably not even a Native, smfh
Hey Thomas, you should do another video examining the Culdesac development in Tempe and it’s walkability characteristics, what it has to offer different to residents, etc. It would be a good compare and contrast case study to this video
Hi Thomas, I liked your video! Suggestion: please include links to sources - especially for the charts, graphics, etc. Also, tried to find the source of the urban vs sub urban cost per household image, but found that the website it links to is not the right website. Maybe the domain got bought!
I’ve biked in south Scottsdale for years, and I wish that there were more bike paths and other stuff, and it is not a fun time biking on the stroads, I tell you
Why would you bike on the stroads and not on the green belt and complete bikable side streets? South Scottsdale is extremely bike friendly.
@@danieldaniels7571 I can see you don't have any experience so I will explain it to you. It's because the greenbelt doesn't actually go anywhere important. you can't bike to the grocery store, you can't bike to the gym with out stroads. try it yourself
@@Lildizzle420 it's not a perfect world.
I taught in Scottsdale ten years ago. Living in Arizona was part of what made me realize that I hate driving and believe in urbanism. The amount of inequality between North and South Scottsdale--or just Scottsdale in general--is disgusting. I taught in a Title I school that was placed among multi-million dollar homes that held parties with valet parking that was around the corner from a classical school that was built on a garbage dump. I do miss Lolo's Chicken and Waffle and the ice cream shop in Old Town, but that's about it. It was dumb that I felt like I had to drive to go to the Fry's just two blocks away from my apartment complex. This is why I only lasted a year there.
You couldn't walk two blocks?
You really should feel dumb over that. There's a difference between can't and won't. It's OK to say you don't want to walk two blocks in this heat. None of us do
@@schmittyconstanzit's not that you can't. It's that the way this city is set up, a 2 block walk could end up being much longer. Also, it is over 100 degrees outside for half of the year. So for many people that two block walk there and back carrying groceries could actually be dangerous. This place sucks.
@@nica2411 I walk 3 times a week ,twice for groceries,once to get water at dispenser,and have done so for 30 years, year-round.Biked to work for 35 years.And yes it's hot 5 months out of the year.
If you have medical conditions +/or physical disabilities then 2 blocks would be challenging or impossible.
For the average person ,this should be a 12 minute walk.
So if you can't walk two blocks I would say you are out of shape.
@@schmittyconstanz good for you. I agree. I personally hike 15 mile canyon trails in northern az. Just saying it is not possible for everyone especially with the oppressive heat. Would be nice if we had some trees but the city just keeps putting concrete everywhere
Hello, you are making some awesome videos! I would really love to see a video on Tempe and Tucson. As an Arizonan myself.
Ok born and raised here in Phoenix and I do construction. I have done work at the Four Seasons and EVERYTHING was done wrong. EVERYTHING! The sewage is a NIGHTMARE and as a framer I have seen things that will make your brain hurt. Well maybe not yours, you are obviously reporting all this so yea I %100 agree with all this. Subscribed so continue Stay Awesome.
Rich people like that it’s impossible for people to walk to their homes.
It’s absolutely absurd to watch these urbanism contents from Europe. Everybody looked at me like I’m a weirdo just because I was walking 500m in one one of the steets in the US😅
Arizona, California and some of these other warmers states (sun wise) could really learn from Mediterranean countries that build 4 story buildings that shade the streets and sidewalks. Madrid is scorching in the Summer, just like Malta, but their infrastructure was built pre-cars and it makes more sense. The shade keeps the city bearable in the scorching months. The damn wide roads in the US create many issues...
I live in north Scottsdale and personally like the press out nature. I see all of your points but living further away from things is nice. Not excited to see traffic increase though.
Making a 2 hour commute is just a recipe for obesity and I don’t enjoy looking at peoples fat. It’s just like having bad hygiene, like bad breathe.
Funny thing is, I went to the University of Oregon, in Eugene (map shown), and met someone who bragged about getting offered her first internship in Urban Planning at Scottsdale. I wonder if she is still there, and where her thoughts are on the development of the City.
Link her this video :)
Great video man. All good points.
If I could make a recommendation to improve your video quality, I'd suggest seeing if there's a way to turn down the sharpness on whatever you are recording with. Your video footage is WAY over-sharpened. If it's a phone, try an app like Filmic Pro. If you're using a cheap digital camera, well, a phone with Filmic Pro might actually produce better results until you decide to upgrade to a decent video-centric mirrorless camera like a FX30/S5ii/GH5/GH6/R7/etc. I'd also look into getting a pop filter / dead cat for your mic to prevent the harsh "pops" on P and K syllables. Davinci Resolve (a free, professional video editing suite) also has a very nice all-in-one vocal audio chain that can improve audio quality dramatically by de-essing and doing multiband compression). I actually live in the valley too, feel free to message me if you need any help or further advice.
Take a look at how disgusting Houston and Dallas Texas is from an urban planning perspective...it's time for states to give developers less power to just cement their greedy will into the foundational core of the nature of the "Greater City." Land must be protected..... new, large, partitioned cities must be created.
If this is a place for rich people, why would they want to live close to each other?
We are not talking about NYC, we talking about a desert area that has plenty of space to grow.
yeah theres room to grow but that growth is out in places like Eastmark, Buckeye, estrella mountain. not everyone wants to live that far out and the room for single family detached developments in scottsdale, phoenix, and mesa is running out or depleted
The greater Phoenix area is way worse than Scottsdale. Scottsdale builds large apartment buildings, they’re just expensive. And lack of urban density is nice to have everyone knows it.
Awesome video, very good points. I really hope these topics catch on in US cities
Seems to me there are tons and tons on new apartments going up everywhere in N. Scottsdale. Mega Apartments and condos. The video might be more persuasive if you got the numbers/facts on what has been built. Quite easily available.
Same in south Scottsdale,he is out of touch
My favorite part of Scottsdale is Miller Road/76th St. Between camelback and indian school rd. Lots of multi unit housing, apartments, etc. within a reasonable walking distance of two grocery stores, some restaurants, a department store, and even sort of close to downtown
Where I live in the northeast, the cities don't own the suburbs. They are SEPARATE jurisdictions and they are financed by the commercial centers in those suburban towns. They are completely separate from the cities.
It's so weird seeing Eugene Oregon get a shoutout. I live in the urban center and love it here
Hey bro, I’m from south Scottsdale great video! I will say this, I got into urban planning a couple years ago and realized how nimby the north is against the south. It’s kinda funny lol but over the last 10 years there have been many urban developments in planning like cameldale on 70th and McDowell (which includes mixed use), the new marketplace on Scottsdale road and McDowell, 64th and McDowell, and a bunch more on Scottsdale rd and Thomas. I’m glad the city isn’t just thinking of old town in terms of urbanizing. North and south just have a different way of thinking. We might not have the light rail but at least we have the trolley😎 As demographics continue to change so will city planning
I would much rather have all of these developments in the old town area and south Scottsdale. A dense connection from Tempe to Scottsdale would be amazing. Far better than helping these communities who don’t want to help themselves.
do you actually ride the trolley
@@Lildizzle420 yea every now and then. Im like right next to a stop.
It might have changed recently, but as of a year or two ago not a single person on the town counsel lived south of Indian Bend 😬
@@willyonamountain YUP! That’s exactly why we are misrepresented on important city manners
Great video as usual! :]
They removed a huge number of businesses from south Scottsdale, and then built a huge number of Condos. So South Scottsdale has become a lot tougher to live at in that area.
Condos are businesses. A McDonald’s and a taco ball are poison distribution centers.
Oh hey, it's my city!
Yeah Thomas, you pretty much nailed it with this one. Between the reluctance to accommodate growth, an inherently backwards and unaffordable zoning code, and the inevitable baby boomer die-off, this place is truly a disaster in the making. Definitely trying to be out of here by the time that happens.
One additional complaint of mine that you did miss: Life in Scottsdale is boring as fuck. Though I suppose in a way that's just an inevitable consequence of all its issues stated in the video.
Great stuff!
Gay
It must be boring because there’s no activities that are available that you like to do. Literally hundreds of miles of trails for offloading, horseback riding, hiking there are golf courses everywhere. If bowling is your thing then yeah you’re probably in the wrong place. 😂.
@@thatcarlifeR8 I enjoy hiking, but the problem is that it gets so hot here that for half of the year you can't go on a hike without being at risk for heat stroke. Many people, mostly out of state/country tourists who are not aware of the health risks, pass out or even die here every summer. Same goes for golfing and horseback riding.
This city is simply built for residents to stay indoors for 6 months at a time. It's cruel and unliveable.
And before someone comes in here with the "oh but it gets super cold in other cities, that's the same thing" rhetoric, not it's really not. Unless you live in Barrow, Alaska, I highly doubt you've ever heard of someone catching hypothermia on a walk to the grocery store, because that's the equivalent of the extreme climate we have here.
@@GeorgeOneEleven i used to live in Wisconsin. I can tell you that way more people die of cold exposure than heat exposure. And you just do different activities. In the winter time there we would ski or ride snowmobile’s or go tubing. And here in the summertime I live in North Scottsdale, if I want to play golf I go early in the morning and I’ve learned how to stay cool with shade, Always keeping a damp towel or cloth over my head. I also on a construction company so it’s really kind of BS to say that nothing happens in the summer because we work all summer long outside and we do just fine. You have to take more breaks productivity goes down water consumption goes up but if you force yourself in the heat for a couple of weeks and adapt, you’re pretty much fine. But you’re right people come here from other places and I have to warn them upfront because they’re never hydrated properly. You don’t realize you’re dehydrated because the air is so dry that you don’t realize you’re sweating when you are. I don’t go hiking in the summertime at all because I think that’s kind of just dangerous in general. The snakes are way more active in the summer. I’ve been in Arizona now for 24 years and you could never get me to move back to the cold. One thing that you glossed over in these super populated, cold-weather cities, driving on icy roads. We don’t have that problem.
@@thatcarlifeR8 I mean I get what you're saying but you're implicitly proving my point here. Needing to start work at 6am or having to keep a damp cloth on your head in order to not pass out, to me, does not qualify a place as liveable. That would be like needing to wear a heated blanket and plan your outside activities to be midday simply to survive in a cold climate.
And frankly, if one of your biggest gripes with living in Wisconsin was having to drive on icy roads, then it sounds like it wasn't too bad of a time there all things considered.
Hey Thomas. Are there links to other information about subsidizing suburban development, examples of walkable city success and studies that support this different development approach that you could share? Thank you.
Could you do a video on good suburbs and explain what makes Evanston a good suburb?
I refuse to believe Phoenix is real. It's an SCP that popped into existence sometime in the 2010s and is now calling itself the 6th largest city.
No we're the fifth largest(suck it Philly) and have been for at least a decade and we didn't just pop in. The entire area has been among the fastest growing since the 90's
Your vids are elite👏🏼
OMG, how funny. My friend and I were "raging" about traffic on Ironwood South thinking the Urban Planner should be fired. Good Video. THX
Probably a silly question, but to what extent did you check that It wasn't just commercial land being a net tax positive and residential land being a net tax drain?
Arizona has "state-shared revenues" that make a city growing in population financially worthwhile. I'm pretty sure that's how Mesa exists as a bedroom community with practically no city property tax without having gone bankrupt eons ago--it's continued to add population.
If you think those people in the apartments don’ have cars, you are wrong. That brings in more and more people making us congested like SF, NYC, etc! You like that but most people that live here do not want to live in places like that.
Can you do a video on irvine, california? Its such an interesting place that im confused about
Nice video!
Does anyone know if property taxes can be made area dependent, like it's for vehicle insurance? That way such suburbs/exurbs end up contributing their share instead of hogging all the resources. Not that NIMBYs would let such a legislation be passed easily but that's a separate problem
They do that all the time. The powerful will pay lower property taxes in proportion to the value of their property.
@@steven4315 that's income tax. Property tax is fairly cut and dry. You don't get a deduction for donating to a charity
@@xtreme242 Maybe in Arizona, in Indiana "assessed value" is used rather than "market value" and tends favor the connected.
@@steven4315 it’s still a straight amount. We used assessed value same as anyone else. You pay whatever percentage of whatever the value is and that’s your tax. There is no deduction no sneaky.
A chunk of the property and sales taxes in Arizona do go to individual cities (as well as the county and state share that funds general operations), but there's a limit on how high they can be. The sprawl-enabling highways in Arizona are paid for by gas taxes and a regional transportation sales tax measure.
Growing up in Phoenix we called it Stoppsdale for all the traffic.
Your last point was great, being for more walkable cities does not mean we are anti car. Realistically I need my car to get to work during the heat in California but I still use public transportation on the weekends. not to mention, things like trees and green space help cool down the area.
Wish I would of found your channel when I lived in AZ. Good work man!
Scottsdale just turned the water off to a suburban desert area of Scottsdale. NO water! No free water, no tap water just pay for tankers delivering it to your personal water tanks. The states water supplies are also becoming less. One of these days water will be charged for when there is some.
No. They stopped providing water to an area that is not within the boundaries of their municipality. Those ppl wanted to live free and not have government intrusion well they have it
I literally have no idea how we will ever fix the travesty of the current American suburb. Yeah, we need electric cars but it’s still so damn car dependent. Just found your channel and subscribed! Keep up the good work!
Here in Prescott Valley, you can't throw a ping pong ball without hitting a duplex. I don't know what difference it makes, unless you are trying to buy a regular home, but facts are facts. Another weird thing about PV is almost every rental property is managed by a real estate agent or management company. We have to drive to ANY destination, however they are building a shitload of apartment complexes now... which I assume is because a rental property is only available for 1 maybe 2 days before it's gone. What this means, I don't know, but I'm just trying to help you with the algorithm thingamajiggy. I miss the 24hr availability of things down in the valley- but people around here don't have a need for house keys and other such jewelry. Truly, it's a pretty simple life we live up here.
I grew up in Scottsdale I got here in 1965 , my parents live in south Scottsdale, they live on a Cul-de-sac of the eight homes on it five are owned by investors, renting them out as ABBs all short term. They have people partying around them constantly. It’s a joke they can’t even enjoy their own backyard. The traffic in Scottsdale is horrendous. There isn’t any affordable housing because the same people building custom homes are building luxury apartments. At 1500 bucks a month rent, you have to have a huge income to be able to afford a down payment on a house. Maybe that’s the plan, in a generation or two you’ll be renting a apartment or a house from a NY investment company and they are making money on both ends.
I'm also a Phoenix resident. I was just wondering when some Urban-RUclipsr would do a video about Phoenix lol. So thanks!
@ThomasFromPHX What suburb in the Phoenix area do you feel like they got it right?
You are absolutely spot on. This model of suburban non planning is unsustainable both environmentally and especially financially because the only way services to low density areas can be paid for is by land and building revenue which feeds more and more development. It has to hit the wall sooner or later. It is madness to make neighbourhoods unwalkable. Crazy.
There is nothing unwalkable here. Just because you don't want to doesn't mean you can't.
@xtreme242: Says someone who has never tried to walk Scottsdale road to go do stuff. You will get nearly killed by right hook turns in the crosswalks.
@aethylwulfeiii6502 I have actually but thanks for assuming. You also have a responsibility to have situational awareness when crossing.
Glad you posted this!!
Excellent video. Thank you.
Thanks for this. Well done.
As a Phoenician, really appreciate this video. Are you aware of any urbanist activism in the Phoenix area? Really want to do more than watch RUclips videos.