Don't Make A Costly Mistake When Buying A Violin - Watch This First!
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- Опубликовано: 23 июл 2024
- Don't make a big mistake when you buy your first violin... or next violin!
Master Violin maker Olaf Grawert talks about one of the most important things to get right when you are buying a violin and why.
Be fully informed when you buy your next instrument. Get Olaf's free 7 essentials when buying an instrument report here: olafgrawertviolinstudio.com/7...
00:00 Introduction
00:49 Violinists story
02:16 Guy buys bad violin
03:20 The big problem people have
08:22 Conclusion
Website:
www.olafgrawertviolinstudio.com
Social:
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I think the biggest mistake is wanting to play an instrument and go shop immediately. Most people underestimate the prices of instruments and end up buying cheap ones because they don't have the money available at once or are not sure if it will pay off to invest several hundred dollars or more. If people were advised to save a year or two before starting and rent during that time or first read on the subject widely, watch videos etc., most would buy a decent beginner's instrument. Depending on the instrument, of course, maybe not, if they want to learn how to play the bassoon.
Indeed, renting or borrowing a violin for a year or two before buying a violin is a good idea. However, knowing when you should move from your first violin to a decent one is difficult to know - and it requires a commitment for the future.
A few years ago my daughter's teacher said "her instrument is holding her back".. as a parent, my response was, well her current instrument is supplied by the school, and WE ARE RENTING FROM YOU".. we took our daughter and her VSO to a reputable dealer, who gave her access to a dozen violins in our price range, and an hour plus to try them, and a volin teacher who is employed as a sales prsin who wants you to have the best. Violin shopping is big fun!
For me the biggest improvement came from changing the bow. The previous one was too light and wasn't properly balanced. My current one is so well balanced that I don't need to apply much pressure to actually play and it feels like a natural extension of my hand rather than a wooden stick with horse hair on it that I have to press to strings in order to make a sound.
Sound advice, for most situations.
I got REALLY lucky with my first fiddle (and I really am much more a fiddler than a violinist). Saw a garage sale ad in the local paper that listed "fiddles" among the items offered--just had to go check it out. There were several there, ranging from $100 to $500 (USD, in ~1990). They were offered by the garage-seller's father. I didn't buy one then, but took the father's business card. Turns out he was, at the time, the president of the Oregon Old-Time Fiddler's Association, and his secondary hobby was rescuing instruments and making them playable.
Well, a few days later, I called him & went to his house to take a look. Mind you, at this point I had NEVER played a bowed string in my life, but I did play a bit of mandolin. He demonstrated several, which all sounded varying degrees of good, and suggested one at $125, with case & cheapo bow. I actually opted for the next-most expensive, at $150, a Stainer pattern with a lovely, dark tone. The solid repair of an old broken neck has never moved, nor given me the slightest trouble in any way. It would probably give a classical violin teacher conniption fits, but it's still a fine, fine fiddle for the Old-Time and Irish Traditional that are what I'm interested in playing. I've upgraded both case and bow, but never felt the need to replace the fiddle itself.
I really should practice more, too, but it's NOT the instrument's fault.
This is true for every type of instrument. Cheap, poorly made instruments are harder to play and sound terrible. They often break, and in many cases, aren't fixable. If you can't afford to buy a good instrument, look into renting one. Renting is especially helpful for beginners who don't know what they don't know. Edit: Also, some shops let you pay over time, which is one way to get a higher quality instrument when you don't have the cash to buy one outright.
My first violins (a half-size that ended up being too big for a year or two and a quarter-size) came from the woman who's still my luthier twenty-six years later. I still remember getting that half-size violin in 1996. We have a video of me playing Twinkle soon after my first recital in '97, and that quarter-size violin sounded pretty decent. I continued with lessons for eight years, until 2004, and by then I was playing a USD$1,400 full-size violin I'd chosen in '01 at a store that makes, restores and sells all sorts of string instruments, from violins to guitars. I still play that violin, which I've truly come to love.
My big mistake was not knowing the bridge was an awful shape which was why I was was always hitting other strings. Thank goodness after a few weeks at my first lesson the teacher said I need to get a new bridge made before my next lesson
Thank you for giving new players to hear about good advice for purchasing a violin. Always figure out if the sound board is the cause of mute sound, or how about the bow hair making extra noise that it emits many dissonance. Give the violin justice that it does deserve an amazing voice to sing!
ABSOLUTELY LOVE all the tshirts and storytelling! Cracks me up!
Looking forward to reading your report. Wish we had discovered your channel before the first couple purchases. Last purchase was at Fiddlerman in Florida and put us in a new world. Amazing experience buying with real players and luthiers helping. Even "I" can setup a violin better (now) than the chain music store we made prior purchases at. Still learning but it is startling how much difference a properly carved bridge and better strings can make.
Appreciate your videos...
I recently got their $220 Midnight Edition violin and I have to say it and it's slightly more expensive varnished rather than painted siblings are perfect for new learners like me. It sounds great, comes properly set up, and really the limitation now is my skill rather than an issue with the instrument itself
If someone does not have the money, though, to afford an instrument obtained from a violin maker who stakes their local reputation on every instrument that leaves their shop, the Johannes Kohr K500 (or other models by Kohr) comes set up correctly from the factory, and if $550 to $700 for one of those is too much new, I got one used off Ebay for $150, and it is set up well, plays easily, and projects particularly well for anything under $1000, let alone $150. I'm not selling it. I bought it as a secondary instrument. The Kohr models are sold by the Howard Core company, but there are other distributors also. They have been made in China for over a decade or two, but initially were made in Germany. My $150 Ebay Kohr (a Chinese one), came with the bridge placed improperly, so that's one thing I can do easily. You just make sure the bridge is standing up straight, and placed between the notches in the f-holes.
The large pro shop nearest to me, which also deals in very expensive instruments, uses the Kohr K500 for their student rentals. That's not why I bought one though. It was recommended to me by someone who went to Juilliard pre-college, because that's what he played at one point as an adult when he had to dump his expensive violin from his student years.
But Olaf is absolutely right that it is a huge waste of time to be playing an instrument which is not set up properly, with the awful reality being that even if you spend the $300 to $700 for a luthier to fix it, it may still sound bad. You can't trust online retailers either, even the ones who claim to have a team of luthiers carefully adjusting every instrument. Some of them do that, but some of them don't.
If you suspect your violin is not made or set up properly, whether it is something you bought online, belonged to a relative, or found in the attic, there are ways to tell. It's kind of obvious when the pegs don't work right, because they slip too much or get so stuck so they won't turn. But the pegs, nut, fingerboard, sound post, and particularly the bridge are things that can be very wrong on new violins, even wrong on instruments costing over $1000, but pretty much always wrong on online instruments under $200. To my knowledge, there isn't any brand new violin you can buy online for under $200 that is going to have the nut, bridge, pegs and fingerboard adjusted or made properly, and many of them will have problems with ALL of those things!
The way to tell on your own violin if some things might be wrong is to read (online) about the proper distances and tolerances for various things and measure them on your violin. For example, there is a certain distance between strings, and from the fingerboard to each string. The strings shouldn't be too high or low off the fingerboard, as either way the violin becomes more difficult to play. If you're doing the measurements on a fractional-size violin, these measurements change, of course.
Violin is just one instrument I play of several, but learning to get the right chin rest, and in my case, to not use a shoulder rest at all (after switching shoulder rest types five times) is a process, one that for people they could go through a lot less pain and impedance to progress, if they just knew a reputable luthier. My first violin cost $3, so I didn't have that luxury. Luthier, or even teacher, was not in the equation. At least poor kids today have the internet.
Have to also reccommend renting a violin first, as well from a reputable violin shop or luthier. My child started at 1/10th and is now just into a 1/4 (her third instrument now) and we are still renting. It is more affordable in letting her play a better quality instrument without fronting the money. They have also restringed the instrument for us and only charged for the strings, whereas the chain music store (purchased emergency strings from) would have charged us. We will be looking to buy a violin in the next couple of years. I noticed online that while some of the models are the exact same at the big chain and violin store, the violin store charges hundreds even though they offer better service (proper setup, sizing, etc). Also, a reputable place will allow you to try out an instrument for a week or two to make sure it's a good fit - which we will be doing in the next year or so.
I took my violin in to the shop to get its first cleaning as it's been a year and 2 months since I bought it. I moved across the country, so this was a new shop and not the place where I bought it. When I bought it, I was still about 4 months in to learning and chalked up all noises and bad playing to just being user-error and being a beginner. The luthier said my violin was basically just handed to me off the shelf. The bridge had never been cut beyond the default curve. The notches for strings were 1mm too far apart from each other. I always wondered why I had major issues doing double stops - something that came to the surface only in the past few months as we switched from Suzuki to fiddle tunes. The tail piece was also too close to the bridge.
Anyway, all this to say is, even if you do the right thing, it is a good idea to go with your teacher when shopping so they don't treat you like a stupid beginner. My violin was never properly setup and I have thought for months now that it was me :(
Yes, having a teacher there can really help...
If you go to a really good place it's not necessary, but knowing which shop is good is the tricky part.
I'm glad you found a good violin maker
The cheap Chinese VSO's sure make it easy to sell a quality violin to someone that has been learning on one. To go from a VSO to a well set up violin is very suprising to most players.
Love this channel!
Good information. And your southern accent was pretty good! Not consistent, but good!
Yeah, that's the hard part...
the violin you show is so amazingly beautiful 🤩
When I started to learn the violin in the mid 80's my first violin was one of those VSO made in China. Watching your video's shows that instruments made today by good violin makers, where ever sourced and set up correctly, now makes sense to buy which is great for someone starting or looking for a better instrument. Thanks Olaf I love watching your video's, as you share so much knowledge so freely. 🙂
Fair points. Would add that if you are buying a second hand violin, get the seller to play it for you.
There may be cases where the seller doesn't know how to play, such as someone who inherited the instrument. But any instrument should be tried before buying, so if you're a beginner, make sure your teacher or another trusted player tries the instrument for you.
@@elissahunt Yes. At least know what you are looking for too.
That characature newbie guy reminds me of myself in 2006 when I bought my first "firewood grade" violin (about $250 USD).
I got a teacher and practiced, but really struggled to get a better tone. The action of that violin wasn't too bad, but the bridge curvature was too small a radius.
That was "normal" for me for over a decade. I eventually decided to change the bridge curvature (I did it myself) and that helped with switching strings, but of course no change in the tone.
Then earlier this year (2024) on a whim, I bought a MUCH better violin (about $2,500 USD) and I couldn't believe the difference.
Now the real trouble I have is putting it down.
For me, I wonder if playing so long on a crappy instrument makes me better appreciate the better one I have now. I do think I have a better understanding of the ture essence of the violin, having direct experience with (some of) The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly (so to speak).
Same thing goes for guitars. A friend of mine bought a $3600 electric guitar. He had been playing a $400 guitar for twenty years but when he played this one there was no comparison. I couldn't believe my ears at the beautiful sounds that this upscale guitar made.
I'm fairly certain people who can afford more, spent more. I can understand why someone may buy cheap violin simply because they don;t have money or because they just want to try and see if playing violin is something they enjoy.
I actually started from a cheap violin that was worth around $220. And yes, it was harder to play than my current one, harder to create half decent sound or keep tuned BUT it got me started and showed me that I like playing and I want to continue learning. So as much as I can understand your frustration with poor quality instruments, I also feel like you look at it from the position of a bit entitled person who affords to spend more.
There's definitely a group of absolutely cheapest instruments that should never be allowed on the market as their built does not allow playing, especially those with a bridge that is not carved in a proper shape. But I think going below the 400 or 500 dollar mark doesn't have to be a mistake as long as you realize the hardships that come with worse quality of the instrument and that sooner or later you will have to upgrade in order to progress
I have seen it all. I teach music and I have kids who are poor who have parents who want them to have a good instrument and spend a lot, and I also have kids from rich families who try to spend as little as possible on everything. I try to help people find affordable instruments but sometimes I do have kids who have something that's literally unplayable. And trumpets are cheap!!!! But you still have to spend a few hundred dollars to get something that works.
@@timmallette1888 yeah, the cheapest i went for was $220 adjusted by a pro and since it was years ago, they would probably be a bit more now. But still, as long as it's playable, it's not the end of the world for starting to go for cheaper option
I didn't know they had violins in New Zealand.
been playing 50 years, first two instruments were not good, third instrument is 100 year old German violin from Markneukirchen. It is very nice
I don't even play the violin or any bowed instrument, I do play the accordion though and it rings true for my instrument too. If you buy a cheap accordion then it's going to hold you back. It might work to learn on but you're going to have to spend a lot more money to get something that is performance ready. In my case if I wanted to do competition again I'd be having to spend at least $2,000 USD for an instrument that would be allowed for competition as my digital one is not, acoustic only.
Hello, thank you for your valuable videos.
May I ask you the price of that beautiful violin with the lovely coulor?
How much should I pay to get a violin like that, and do you ship to Oman?
Thanks
Hi Mohamed,
The violin is the Piere Lomont Master and it's $2,895. I ship all over the world and don't see a big problem with shipping to Oman. Here is the link: olafgrawertviolinstudio.com/shop/piere-lomont-master-violin-outfit/
I am a beginner and I ordered a workshop violin that comes with the ebony KIT, I am thinking of getting a snakewood kit. Is it worth replacing just for aesthetics?
Last week I went to a store to select a violin. It was disastrous for the most part. I seen 6 violins, liked 2 of them, got scolded by my teacher how they are 2 different character, almost asked wtf have I got no idea what I'm looking for. Then established that both have a wolf tone (something I couldn't even replicate but doesn't seem like something I should get at this point). One sounded pretty nice and quite balanced to me, but after a couple of days it just seemed a bit too nasal somehow. The other was like a level up in volume and brightness, but seemed kinda one-dimensional. Gave them back both and now I'm even more confused and helpless. I have been learning nearly 3 years but I'm still a beginner... maybe wait 3 more years and try again.
This was in Nürnberg, 2-3k euro price range (quite a serious amount of money for me). It just feel impossible to spend your money 'right'.
Hang in there, you can find some great instruments in that price range. Try some other shops! Maybe pay your teacher for their time to come with you. That’s what I did to find my instrument 20 years ago, and I’m still happy with it after all this time.
Agreed... Keep trying and take your time.
When you find a violin that it right, it will just click with you.
Also not all violin shops are the same.
In Europe you can find 100 year old "factory made" german violin really cheap or even for nothing. You pay 200-400 USD to get it set up properly by a luthier and then you or your child have a beginners instrument with a very small sound but completey playable. A luthier charges 1000-1200 USD for such an instrument. Just make sure that you get all parts with the instrument and that is not broken when you get it. If it is broken it is not worth the repair cost.
This is interesting..... A BIG VOICE seems to be a selling point for an instrument.
As a guitar player, I would say that at a minimum, if at all possibile, you should not spend less than 350 dollars Canadian for a first acoustic, and add at least 50 bucks for a first electric. Also, get the thing set up by a professional. If you have to, go down to 300 bucks for the actual guitar but get the thing set up. A proper set up is so vital. Set ups go for 60 to 70 bucks.
I guess the same ideas apply to violins. There is no way a 100 dollar violin will be anything but total junk.
Don't know if you will see or be able to answer this Olaf. But I was gifted a 189 dollar discontinued Shar Koe Violin from my college violin teacher back in like.. 2016. I ended up putting it away for a few years because she basically destroyed every bit of confidence I had. Basically showed she didn't care and was about disgusted with my playing. I want to start violin again, but Im wondering if maybe.. because I want to try learning again. even though it will be self taught. Should I invest in a better violin? or just keep using the cheap one I was gifted until I get better or.. as better as I can get.
I'm not trolling here, so bear with me. I just want to ask the question as to why that Violins are priced the way they are. I've been following Olaf for a while now (Not because I'm a violin player, but because I love to see luthiers, and other musical instrument craftsmen at work). I play the guitar myself, and I happen to know that you can buy a very high end, high quality, even USA made guitar (both electric, and acoustic) for around about the same price as a lower end, non-vintage Violin. There are some exceptions, some very high end acoustic guitars can run into the 5 figure range, but if I understand correctly a Violin in the 5 figure range would be considered on the lower to medium end of the scale, is this correct? I guess the simple answer is the Violins are priced according to what people are willing to pay, but is there more to it than that? If one can by a top-notch Martin acoustic guitar with all the bells and whistles, up to, and including real abalone inlay work for $15k to $20k then surely you can buy an equal quality Violin for the same price.
I think it's because good violins have to be hand made (carved), while a lot of the guitar making process can be automated without negatively affecting the final product. It's much the same with wind instruments. While the finishing of high quality clarinets (for example) is all hand done, much of the manufacturing process is automated. So you can get a top quality clarinet for well under $10,000 US, despite the fact that the wood itself (usually Grenadilla) is expensive and rare.
I do however, believe that it will pay off for lots of players to buy a different or better instrument after about 3 to 5 years of playing, because they will have found individual preferences and even violins in one price range, even from one line, can sound vastly different. I bet those Pierre Lemonts do not all sound the same, either?
Yes, you won't know what you want as an outright beginner (nor will you be able to play it to try it out!) which is why I took the rental route. In the meantime I can save up for an even better instrument...
I'm not a musician but I appreciate those who can create music, and I understand tools. A violin is a tool, and like any tool its design and quality of construction limits what the user can do. There's a saying that a master can use primitive tools and create masterpieces. While true, that doesn't mean that using better tools doesn't make the job easier to do and more pleasurable. it's always better to have tools better than you are, than to have worse ones that turn what you try to do into a struggle.
The cello I'm renting is pretty bottom of the barrel (not quite $99 Amazon level) because I am renting from a small company who usually rents to school kids. So I get it. Don't want to give a 13yr old an expensive instrument lol. It is ok for now but I'm only 2 months in and already trying to see if I can somehow afford a better one. Can't even imagine having a cheaper one haha.
Better ask your family to save a certain amount each month for you, as many people as are willing to participate (uncle, aunt, grandmother, grandfather etc.) and see what you can get from that after 2 years. That should buy you a decent cello (and bow, bag etc.) and at that time you should be able to really pick your own cello, really know what you are looking for in a cello and what not.
That said, I did start on an instrument that wasn't very good. The first year or so, I would not have heard or appreciated the differences to a better violin and probably ended up believing the violin was bad, not my playing. When I finally found my first self-bought violin, it turned out by chance to have everything I was missing in that first instrument. BUT without the first instrument, I would not have known what exactly I was looking for and not appreciated these aspects as much.
My experience is as long as it's a decent instrument you can learn on it for quite some time until it really holds you back. I'm also renting an entry level instrument (about 300 euro range) and now I know there are a lot better ones, it doesn't do anything where I _need_ something better (would just be nice and perhaps motivate a little bit). 2 months in, I'd suggest wait until the 6 months - 1 year mark, that's a good amount of time to learn basics.
(i'm an adult beginner using this instrument for almost 3 years now)
I don’t trust any Chinese made, but Eastman does have a good viola 305 model I played. But I only buy Romanian instruments cause they’re excellent and affordable.
My previous comment may have seemed rather negative, but was out of exasperation at the difficulty of finding decent beginner and intermediate level instruments here in the UK.. Some of the cheaper instruments may be very poor, but many look well-made but just haven’t been properly set up. Some look good but don’t sound great. And some are well made and well set up, and even sound good.. It’s a minefield ! I have already learnt quite a lot, the hard way. Isn’t the sound quality the most important ? . Don’t you need to try it out or have it demonstrated . Will my playing sound that much better on an antique 19th century Mirecourt, etc?
I would love to find a friendly local Olaf here, but haven’t managed it yet. A Violin Heaven, stocked with a treasure house of instruments to suit all levels and pockets, someone who can make, repair, and give good advice, all under one roof. And make us laugh (but that’s a bonus). Probably WON’T sell me a fiddle for $99 !.
People do this with ukuleles too. All they think about is getting one for cheap. It’s disastrous.
Hi Olaf, i really really hope you see this, I have a question, I had my violin signed by mariachi Vargas and their signatures means a lot to me, I was going to polish it but my friends told me that it needs a “finish” so the signature stays on because if I polish the signature will erase. But my mom told me if I get it finish it will erase anyways, I just don’t know what to do, I hope you see this
Hi Violingen,
Great to hear that you got the signature!
You can get a coat of clear varnish put on top to protect the signature. Hopefully it won't run.
That should protect it from being polished off.
Ok, thank you so much 😊, that really makes me happy to hear, also I forgot to mention they signed it in sharpie, will the signatures still be ok and protected?
I think sharpies are spirit/alcohol based, so they have to be careful to apply 2 to 3 thin, quick drying coat of varnish
Ok, thank you so much 😊
Lest Hand Instruments?
This is a very sad video I am a student and I wanted to start playing violin but seems to be so expensive to get a good one, in my country ( Algeria ) 400$ is waaaaaaaay expensive that's like my dads whole paycheck of three months, now I'll give up this dream coz it will at least take my 4 years to save up for it, I hate my life 😢 there is nothing in here no violin makers no good violins only chinese stuff :(
1:05 nice subtle self promotion
The trouble is I dont even trust "specialist " dealers.. They take these cheap things, and select those that are any good, maybe do a minmimal amount of work to make them playable ie proper bridge fitting and adjustment of pegs, then add fancy pseudo Italian sounding names and put them on display at many $100s . They excuse this by saying "we have our own factory in China". What you get is still basically a cheap Chinese fiddle
You sold me a Chinese violin and stated some of the Chinese makers are as good as European makers. You need to clarify what you mean by bad Chinese violin makers.
What violin did you buy?
There are a few Chinese makers that are amazing and di everything by hand in the traditional way...
AND there are also Chinese factories that pump out hundreds of VSOs daily. They're the factories that make a lot of the cheap violins you find around the world.
There's a huge difference between the two... but then there is the set up... which is where the magic really happens.
@@AskOlaftheViolinmaker Garibaldi master outfit.....still going strong.
Let's see you put one of those rubbish violins in the fire. !!
But Olaf, aren’t your violins from China ?
Yes!
There a huge number of makers and factories and workshops in China. There are good makers, average makers, and people who should maybe consider making furniture instead.
I have a small highly skilled workshop making instruments to my specifications... The traditional way mostly by hand except for saws etc.
It took me many years to find this workshop.
i still have the 80 euro cheap violin but after i started to go to violin School my teatcher told me to buy a new one that cost way more but i´did and yet it did sound better
hello,I would like to have one from you ,,for freee!!!!